RE: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
Not sure if that comment was directed at me or not, but I didn't make the statement, I was quoting someone else from the hlcoders list after Steven H. asked where it was documented. I never disputed the use of the term hack. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric (Deacon) Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:20 AM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack In a bold display of creativity, Brian J. holmes wrote: A hack is a funny thing to call a user message nicely documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp. A set of functionality existed for a particular, obscure purpose. To use that functionality in going way above and beyond its intended use--indeed, it was a temporary thing to begin with--and to base your plugins on that code is considered a hack. Not necessarily a cheating hack. Just a use of code in an unintended fashion. I swear to god, some of you guys are such childish little assholes. You ought to go into politics where such cattiness is appreciated. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
Eric should take his own advice. On 5/21/05, Brian J. holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not sure if that comment was directed at me or not, but I didn't make the statement, I was quoting someone else from the hlcoders list after Steven H. asked where it was documented. I never disputed the use of the term hack. -- Clayton Macleod ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
- Original Message - From: Frash [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ Steve: Get your facts straight or stay out of this discussion please. Which fact do you believe I stated wrongly that its not a documented API if so I quote: Alfred Reynolds wrote: They are using an undocumented hack to display those menus, this update removes the hack and so they can no longer use it (because the last subsystem that was using it, radio menus, has finally been fixed to be client side). They have a plugin API to display messages to users and get feedback, they should use that. I don't disagree that the function they are using may well be helpful but the facts are that when you use undocumented hacks you have no come back when they just stop working. I know I code for a living and have use things like this in past but although I may cus when things like that just don't work anymore I know I only have myself to blame for using them in the first place. I think valve has been very considerate in this matter and have already offered to take in any requirements the mods have. Alfred Reynolds wrote: I would love the authors of these programs to contact me and discuss their needs. We are trying to minimise the visual clutter that plugins introduce in the game, but we are always flexible (we will not tie ourselves to maintaining out of date code just because they found a way to trigger it however). And as such I must protest when people get the wrong end of the stick and start spouting things like: Valve bullying server plugin developers Valve do a bang up job on support, the only other developer in the same league when it comes to support are Epic. They both do as much as they can to support the community although some don't seem to appreciate them. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
Frash wrote: Trust me guys, VALVe will revert it. Whoa there! Talk about backing someone (big) into a corner! Alfred said two things that stuck out to me, one of which it seems a bunch of coders are ignoring all together. For one, Alfred said that Valve would not be held hostage by plugin dev's, and with comments like that one I wouldn't cooperate just for spite. Who do you think you are to talk like that? Second, he said he *wanted* to talk to the plugin dev's and work something out. He said Valve was *flexible*. Now to me, that's an open invitation to move forward in a positive manner. Instead of jumping on that wagon, all I'm seeing is a bunch of people whining because they didn't get their way. So why don't you guys take the second option, the part where Valve wants to be flexible and go with that? You might find that you'll end up with something better than what you had to begin with! -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
In a bold display of creativity, Rash wrote: Trust me guys, VALVe will revert it. They have to, or nobody will take them serious anymore. Just FYI, as an ardent pedant, it's difficult for me to take anyone seriously who says things like take them serious anymore. Serious is an adjective. Seriously is an adverb. In that sentence, you are describing the manner in which someone will take VALVe. In other words, you're modifying a verb, which calls for an adverb. The car doesn't roll perfect. It rolls perfectly. You don't take VALVe serious. You take VALVe seriously. First the admins started complaining their plugins doesnt work. Then the coders started complaining (HLCoders). Now even the players are complaining (See Steam forums). Those are not 3 sides complaining. That's a handful of people on one side playing with fire (HLCoders) and affecting the admins and players as a result. According to some coders its fully documented by the way. Its fully documented what? Its fully document functionality? Or were you intending to use a contraction instead of a possessive adjective? See http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=it%27s for more info. According to VALVe, it is not a documented feature. They're the ones who get to decide whether or not it counts as such. @ Steve: Get your facts straight or stay out of this discussion please. I'd suggest you get your panties straight instead. They're all bunched up, and as a result you're not thinking clearly or reasonably. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
In a bold display of creativity, Frash wrote: A fact is that VALVe does this all to maintain control. I doubt that, honestly, but even if it's true, it's certainly reasonable. Basically, it's like someone driving across a public park to avoid having to go around and getting pissed when the city closes the gates to prevent people from running roughshod over the grass. Oh noes! A fact is that the city does this all to maintain control. I know, let's protest! It's annoying to have to go around and follow prescribed paths instead of driving right through the park where you were never intended to be driving anyway? Tough titty. There is a big chance plugins like NeoTF and WC3 are simply impossible because VALVe does not like them. Who is this VALVe of which you speak? He sounds like an interesting individual with strong personal preferences. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
So I'm going to weigh in here from a server admin perspective. Personally, it seems to me the thrust of this debate so far has revolved around petty complaints of semantics and name calling. The facts as I see them are: 1) Valve included a documented and supported plugin interface allowing for a menu system requiring the user to press escape and use a mouse to access. 2) Valve also included a documented but not apparently supported method for creating in game menu's 3) early plugin development used the first method and server Admins universally requested a better method for menu's similar to the old AMX system from HL1. 4) The mod community responded to this by using the second method and plugins using this method were widely adopted by the server admin community, because it allowed them to administrate their servers mid-game with only a minimum disruption to their game. 5) Valve released an update which disabled this functionality and nowhere in the release notes did they mention this functionality would be going away. The closest they came was this line Made the radio menu more responsive 6) The mod community was bombarded with bug reports of their plugins menu's suddenly not working and after investigation determined the menu function they had been using had been deprecated. What needs to happen in my opinion is that Valve needs to respond to the needs and wants of the server admin community by extending their menu API t allow for in-game menu's and further they need to at the very least provide complete changelogs for releases so we know why a plugin suddenly breaks. It would of course be far better for Valve to work more closely with the mod community to warn them of impending changes and this is exactly what they have asked for. But more importantly they need to either listen to the user community and provide the tools they ask for or allow plugin developers to find their own ways to satisfy public demand without actively trying to limit their capabilities. Just my opinion Brian Duck Holmes [H]ard|Gaming founder www.hardgaming.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
In a bold display of creativity, Brian J. holmes wrote: What needs to happen in my opinion is that Valve needs to respond to the needs and wants of the server admin community by extending their menu API t allow for in-game menu's See, I think that's reasonable. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
- Original Message - From: Brian J. holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] The facts as I see them are: 1) Valve included a documented and supported plugin interface allowing for a menu system requiring the user to press escape and use a mouse to access. 2) Valve also included a documented but not apparently supported method for creating in game menu's People keep claiming this other method is documented so where is said documentation? Note: I havent looked for it myself What needs to happen in my opinion is that Valve needs to respond to the needs and wants of the server admin community by extending their menu API t allow for in-game menu's Sounds sensible but from what I have read this has already been offered. People just need to talk about it and come up with some requirements to provide a supportable API. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
On 5/21/05, Steven Hartland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds sensible but from what I have read this has already been offered. People just need to talk about it and come up with some requirements to provide a supportable API. Requirements: Work exactly like the menus that are being removed. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
Just to sum up this thread: Whingers: die valve die die Valve: sorry we are just trying to help, work with us. Whingers: die piggie piggie die die Every sensible person on this earth + m0gley: You whingers are idiots. People need not read anything else said in this monumental waste of time thread :) Tank On Sat, 21 May 2005, m0gely wrote: Frash wrote: Trust me guys, VALVe will revert it. Whoa there! Talk about backing someone (big) into a corner! Alfred said two things that stuck out to me, one of which it seems a bunch of coders are ignoring all together. For one, Alfred said that Valve would not be held hostage by plugin dev's, and with comments like that one I wouldn't cooperate just for spite. Who do you think you are to talk like that? Second, he said he *wanted* to talk to the plugin dev's and work something out. He said Valve was *flexible*. Now to me, that's an open invitation to move forward in a positive manner. Instead of jumping on that wagon, all I'm seeing is a bunch of people whining because they didn't get their way. So why don't you guys take the second option, the part where Valve wants to be flexible and go with that? You might find that you'll end up with something better than what you had to begin with! -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
People keep claiming this other method is documented so where is said documentation? Note: I havent looked for it myself I haven't either but this is directly quoted from the hlcoders list: A hack is a funny thing to call a user message nicely documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp. ~dvander ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
On 22/05/2005 6:38 a.m., Brian J. holmes wrote: What needs to happen in my opinion is that Valve needs to respond to the needs and wants of the server admin community by extending their menu API t allow for in-game menu's and further they need to at the very least provide complete changelogs for releases so we know why a plugin suddenly breaks. They've already offered to do that. What I do think needs to happen however, is that any replacement API needs to be implemented before the current legacy code is removed. Clearly there are a huge number of people using the plugins that make use of that code, and removing it without telling the plugin developers beforehand, let alone mentioning it in the release notes, does not seem like a very clever move - I'm guessing they just didn't realise it would be such a big issue. It seems like the functionality that the plugin developers want already exists, so unless Valve wishes to improve upon it, they merely need to document that interface and ensure it's maintained and not swept away in the next code cleaning. -Simon ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
People keep claiming this other method is documented so where is said documentation? Note: I havent looked for it myself I haven't either but this is directly quoted from the hlcoders list: A hack is a funny thing to call a user message nicely documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp. Well, if you got that far, why didn't you read Alfred's response: http://www.mail-archive.com/hlcoders%40list.valvesoftware.com/msg12119.html Mani doesn't seem all that fussed about it: mani_use_amx_style_menu 0 This will allow you to use the 'official' Valve menu system. You will be prompted to press 'Esc' to see the menu system. Sorry about this everyone but it was always a risk that Valve would pull the plug on that style of menu system. i.e., oh well -- you no longer can use the old style menus... now you need to use the official ones. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
I did in fact read the whole thread my point is that, as a server admin, using a plugin that is restrained to only having the esc menu system available is quite simply a pain in the ass. As a server admin I want an in game menu for my admin plugin, and I think that echoes the wants of a great number of other server Admins. It was specifically this market pressure from the server Admins that convinced mani and others to use the hack to implement them. If we're stuck with the esc menu's then I guess we're stuck with them but I don't think requesting that valve extend the menu api to allow for in game menu's and also requesting that they preferably give us advance warning of something in the code being deprecated or at the very least tell us when they've done it is out of line. I've said it a million times before but in my opinion the huge half-life mod community and the huge server admin community are what has made, and will continue to make, half-life as successful as it is. All I'm asking is some common courtesy from valve in response to those two groups wants. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Forsberg Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 6:35 PM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack People keep claiming this other method is documented so where is said documentation? Note: I havent looked for it myself I haven't either but this is directly quoted from the hlcoders list: A hack is a funny thing to call a user message nicely documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp. Well, if you got that far, why didn't you read Alfred's response: http://www.mail-archive.com/hlcoders%40list.valvesoftware.com/msg12119.h tml Mani doesn't seem all that fussed about it: mani_use_amx_style_menu 0 This will allow you to use the 'official' Valve menu system. You will be prompted to press 'Esc' to see the menu system. Sorry about this everyone but it was always a risk that Valve would pull the plug on that style of menu system. i.e., oh well -- you no longer can use the old style menus... now you need to use the official ones. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
[snip] I've said it a million times before but in my opinion the huge half-life mod community and the huge server admin community are what has made, and will continue to make, half-life as successful as it is. All I'm asking is some common courtesy from valve in response to those two groups wants. [snip] And Valve have responded a million times that they're more than happy to accommodate third party developers as well as they can. I mean, honestly, even in this case they have rolled back the patch, and restated their invitation for third parties to contact them with their requests. Move on... ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VALVe getting critism from 3 sides for blocking the fancy menu hack
In a bold display of creativity, Brian J. holmes wrote: A hack is a funny thing to call a user message nicely documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp. A set of functionality existed for a particular, obscure purpose. To use that functionality in going way above and beyond its intended use--indeed, it was a temporary thing to begin with--and to base your plugins on that code is considered a hack. Not necessarily a cheating hack. Just a use of code in an unintended fashion. I swear to god, some of you guys are such childish little assholes. You ought to go into politics where such cattiness is appreciated. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
