Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
It's not incorrect finger position on my part. My fingers are always curved, on the spatulas at all times. I've played on many linkage horns and I cannot stand the feel of them. Again it's that unequal torque from 70% effeciency to 100% back down to 70%. Why work harder than you have to? With 70% efficiency on torque you have to press harder anyways, no matter the stroke length, viscosity of oil, or weight of the valve or strength of the spring. Mechanically the only way to provide a 100% torque through the whole arc of a mechanical linkage is to have another pivot point there which would greatly complicate matters. If you gave me a blind feel test I could tell instantly which was a linkage horn and which was a string horn by only feeling the valve. Also, strings usually don't break either unless you don't replace them, use the wrong string, or don't maintain a close eye on them. Nothing on your horn should be ignored. Everything should be watched. Entropy applies for horns too, things will break down. I don't wish to argue or to be mean, only I don't see any problems with using strings if you take care of them. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 10:30:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > When do mini-balls break ??? Normal (average) use, NEVER. I have > mini-balls even on my oldest Ganter horn in use. No wear, no > maintenance, never had any problem. Valve action super smooth &super > fast &light. The horn is in use since 1978. > > Yeah, yeah, I know why problems come up: > Fingers stretched in the air &just "thundering" down to action instead > of CORRECT finger position, curved like a violin player, on the plate, > ready to action. > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Not on Bruckner 4 just yet but I have had many trecherous soli in the middle of orchestra settings even sitting on first chair. Yes, not all solos are on first horn either. Full solo's are even worse. I'm soloing the Rosetti 5 concerto in E mind you (all of it) in two months with full orchestra. I will be a little nervous, and yes it's routine to be nervous. That's not an easy piece either. But I've practiced enough that I know I can play it cold. The same way was with my recital (of which I played Rosetti 5, Francaix's Divertimento and even a beautiful transcription of Faure by Daniel Bourge). I didn't pick easy pieces and I didn't walk out on stage unprepared. I wasn't nervous. For me I don't get nervous ever unless I don't practice something... and if I don't practice something or am unprepared I'm a fool to myself and have every right to be scared. But if you've practiced and you know how to play it your concentration will be on the piece and it will pull you through. I mean I never go into something unprepared, and that is my point. Not only should you be prepared with your lips and knowledge of music, but also with the proper tools to fix your hobby-horse. I never get nervous if I know without a doubt that the F will be there. It's the same in Strauss 1. Just know you can play it cold and you'll do fine. Of course it requires lots of practice, repetition, and woodshedding. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 10:33:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Have you ever played Bruckner no.4 on first chair ? Your concentration > is anywhere else than on your "strings", specially if you are a very > young player without the later acquired concert routine (no matter, > having the set of strings ready in the horn case, the screwdriver, etc. > > You will sweat blood &water then ... ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Chemical Cleaning
I just bought some Ferree's Brite Dip. I haven't tried it on a horn yet, and I would be interested in hearing the experiences and caveats of anyone who has personally used this product to clean a horn. Carl Bangs ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
Very good point. You can also give a Porshe to a Chimpanzee but that doesn't mean he'll make a qualifying lap at Nurburgring. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 10:30:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But anyway, interesting equation. Does the average customer understand > that, the customer, who does not even know where to apply the oil ? > > Blame the user again. Improving the playing technique by providing the > best tool (instrument) is necessary absolutely, but does it help to > improve MUSICAL playing ? I am missing that aspect more than anything. > > Does a technical perfect instrument better the sound quality, if the > sound concept is wrong totally, on the makers or on the players side or > on both ? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Have you ever played Bruckner no.4 on first chair ? Your concentration is anywhere else than on your "strings", specially if you are a very young player without the later acquired concert routine (no matter, having the set of strings ready in the horn case, the screwdriver, etc. You will sweat blood & water then ... === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this > happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
When do mini-balls break ??? Normal (average) use, NEVER. I have mini-balls even on my oldest Ganter horn in use. No wear, no maintenance, never had any problem. Valve action super smooth & super fast & light. The horn is in use since 1978. Yeah, yeah, I know why problems come up: Fingers stretched in the air & just "thundering" down to action instead of CORRECT finger position, curved like a violin player, on the plate, ready to action. Blame the player (user), not the maker. But anyway, interesting equation. Does the average customer understand that, the customer, who does not even know where to apply the oil ? Blame the user again. Improving the playing technique by providing the best tool (instrument) is necessary absolutely, but does it help to improve MUSICAL playing ? I am missing that aspect more than anything. Does a technical perfect instrument better the sound quality, if the sound concept is wrong totally, on the makers or on the players side or on both ? == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included) Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can prove it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. Torque is the following equation: T = F * r * sin (theta) Where: T = Torque F = Force D = Radius of where torque is being applied to theta = angle between force and the angle of radial line ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
The point is that if one wants to get as technical as most horn professionals do with regards to alloys and such you might as well get technical with torque. I mean with most horn manufacturers touting their horn weights in grams or their tolerances you might as well as get technical as possible. -William Equal torque means that the action will be swift and even. Linkages mean there will be a little extra force required to initially push the valve. But as to the inspection of strings, I do that every time I oil the bushings at the bottom. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:25:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Maybe it's the Jack Daniels talking, but why the hell do I need even torque > and mathematical proofs to play a different note than the one I'm currently > playing? All I need is fast, reliable valve action. Uniformity of torque > is trumped by the I want my valves open or closed. To do that, I put my > fingers up or down -- quickly, and hopefully at the correct time. The only > difference I detect on a regular basis is the maintenance regimen. I have > to oil my minibal linkages, I don't have to oil strings. I'd have to > inspect strings for signs of impending breakage, but not so with the > minibals. Finally, Professor GmS would probably attest that my Kopprasch #1 > is equally as inadequate with both. > > John Baumgart ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Valve
Clayton Whetmore, here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike muttered: Professor Pizka, By the time i read the digest which was around 10pm on a school day, I couldnt simply go into the bathroom and start wahing it out for an hour. Thats why i did it yesterday evening. Mike Now, Mike, I am having to make all of the tellings that the good Prof. Hans was instructing you to MACERATE your horn, not what you thought and if you are doing that other thing, that is normal for a teenager and nothing to be ashamed of but there are other lists to go to to make the publications of it on since this is a HORN list, not a HORNY list! I hope Mike has a good sense of humor! He's certainly taken his share of misunderstanding and ribbing from this list! My disbelief was that he didn't simply use the horn without the sticking valve for the concert. I also had a hard time believing he'd not enlisted the help of people physically accessible, such as his teacher. And I had a hard time believing he'd not mentioned the problem to a parent and requested they carry the horn to a shop and beg a clinician to spend an hour unsticking the valve on an emergent basis. However, I also was shocked that people didn't read carefully what he said about which horn he played. The sticking valve was NOT on the horn played regularly, at school, but on the one that sat untouched at home all week. So many folks have given him a hard time about not oiling the one he played regularly, shaming him, and absolutely sure THAT's why the valve is sticking on it. Yet he specifically said that it was the one that got played irregularly. I suspect that, similar to the way trombone players rarely add oil to a slide, instead lubricating with a spray bottle of water, Mike is keeping his valves lubricated solely by the moisture in his breath. Thus, the cause of the problem with the sticking valve in the horn that's not played regularly, so everything dries and begins to stick. Prof Pizka made the best point, that Mike's responsibility was to care for BOTH horns on a regular basis. Unfortunately this simple preventative care has apparently not been taught by his teacher. Perhaps this might be the perfect opportunity for Mike to request a few moments of remedial education from his teacher. He could learn the art of applying the different oils, avoiding contaminating the grease on the slides, getting the right oils in the right spots, etc. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Who made it?
Alan Cole portered: OK, who do you suppose actually manufactured this old Alexander 103 clone that's on eBay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578549659&category=359 Paxperson? Boosey? Gebr. Alexander? Somebody else? Can't help wondering. Now, this cannot be a Boosey because it has never, never, never been cleaned with Scotch, and that is the mostest of obviousnessesses!!! Seasonings Greetonings and Mostest Happiestest of Hangoverings, Prof. I. M. Gestopftmitscheist Principal 8th horn and Principal 4th Wagner Tuber, Schplittenotendorf am Oedland Staatsoper und Philharmoniker, (ret.) Solo Horn, Exit 2 Brass Quintet Hornist, Broken Winds WW Quintet Solo 4th Horn (Leader, call me for bookings), Smirnoff Horn Quartet Assistant Associate Principal Mellophone, NJ Turnpike Authority Drum and Bugle Corps, "The Phantom Lane Changers" Hornist as Needed, L'Ensemble du Chambre des Palourdes Principal Natural Horn, I Soloisti di Feces Principal Baroque and Hunting Horn, Camarata Vongoleforte Adjunct, Part-time, Arms-length Professor of Horn and Pest Control, Exit 2 Community College, Exit 2, NJ Author, "The Kopprasch Connection," "Kopprasch for Fun and Profit," "Kopprasch for the New Millenium: Where Do you Fit In?" and "Hooked on Hornonics" Founder, Director and CEO, Universal Institute for the Study, Preservation and Dissemination of Kopprasch Throughout the Solar System Founder and Guru Extraordinaire, Hornaholics Anonymous Grand Poobah of the Koppraschian Kult Director and Program Manager, The All Kopprasch Channel (AKC), Kopprasch Public Radio (KPR) Host of The Kopprasch Factor on AKC and All Kopprasch Considered on KPR Founder of Kopprasch Depot, your one stop shop for all you need! Interplanetarily Known Soloist and Artist of Record Exclusive Bundy, Carl Fischer Special, Olds Ambassador, Sansone and Conn Artist Phone: yes Fax: yes E-mail: yes Website: no "Kopprasch never takes a holiday." ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
- Original Message - From: "John Baumgart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included) > > Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can > prove > > it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. > Torque is > > the following equation: > > > > T = F * r * sin (theta) > > Maybe it's the Jack Daniels talking, but why the hell do I need even torque > and mathematical proofs to play a different note than the one I'm currently > playing? All I need is fast, reliable valve action. Uniformity of torque > is trumped by the I want my valves open or closed. Oops, Jack's talking too much. We meant to say that uniformity of torque is trumped by the condition of the valves, which matters more when all I want is my valves open or closed. > To do that, I put my > fingers up or down -- quickly, and hopefully at the correct time. The only > difference I detect on a regular basis is the maintenance regimen. I have > to oil my minibal linkages, I don't have to oil strings. I'd have to > inspect strings for signs of impending breakage, but not so with the > minibals. Finally, Professor GmS would probably attest that my Kopprasch #1 > is equally as inadequate with both. > > John Baumgart > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Titanium Strings
Hans Haled: Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. Now, I never made the breakings of strings just ten minutes before anything since for many, many, years now, ever since I gave up playing with balls, I have been using titanium strings which never, never, never break and you don't have to change them once or twice a year like normal, mortal strings but I always make the changings of my underwear ten minutes before Bruckner 4 (and make the mostest of certains you put on at least 4 sizes too big of underwears) and that has a lot more importance, don't you think, since, you can't trust the string action anyway and you don't want to stir up any kind of actions in Bruckner 4, even if it is called "The Romantic." Kindestest of Greetonings and Mostest of Flipulations, Prof. I. M. Gestopftmitscheist Principal 8th horn and Principal 4th Wagner Tuber, Schplittenotendorf am Oedland Staatsoper und Philharmoniker, (ret.) Solo Horn, Exit 2 Brass Quintet Hornist, Broken Winds WW Quintet Solo 4th Horn (Leader, call me for bookings), Smirnoff Horn Quartet Assistant Associate Principal Mellophone, NJ Turnpike Authority Drum and Bugle Corps, "The Phantom Lane Changers" Hornist as Needed, L'Ensemble du Chambre des Palourdes Principal Natural Horn, I Soloisti di Feces Principal Baroque and Hunting Horn, Camarata Vongoleforte Adjunct, Part-time, Arms-length Professor of Horn and Pest Control, Exit 2 Community College, Exit 2, NJ Author, "The Kopprasch Connection," "Kopprasch for Fun and Profit," "Kopprasch for the New Millenium: Where Do you Fit In?" and "Hooked on Hornonics" Founder, Director and CEO, Universal Institute for the Study, Preservation and Dissemination of Kopprasch Throughout the Solar System Founder and Guru Extraordinaire, Hornaholics Anonymous Grand Poobah of the Koppraschian Kult Director and Program Manager, The All Kopprasch Channel (AKC), Kopprasch Public Radio (KPR) Host of The Kopprasch Factor on AKC and All Kopprasch Considered on KPR Founder of Kopprasch Depot, your one stop shop for all you need! Interplanetarily Known Soloist and Artist of Record Exclusive Bundy, Carl Fischer Special, Olds Ambassador, Sansone and Conn Artist Phone: yes Fax: yes E-mail: yes Website: no "Kopprasch is the fiber of horn playing." ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included) > Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can prove > it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. Torque is > the following equation: > > T = F * r * sin (theta) Maybe it's the Jack Daniels talking, but why the hell do I need even torque and mathematical proofs to play a different note than the one I'm currently playing? All I need is fast, reliable valve action. Uniformity of torque is trumped by the I want my valves open or closed. To do that, I put my fingers up or down -- quickly, and hopefully at the correct time. The only difference I detect on a regular basis is the maintenance regimen. I have to oil my minibal linkages, I don't have to oil strings. I'd have to inspect strings for signs of impending breakage, but not so with the minibals. Finally, Professor GmS would probably attest that my Kopprasch #1 is equally as inadequate with both. John Baumgart ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Valve
Mike muttered: Professor Pizka, By the time i read the digest which was around 10pm on a school day, I couldnt simply go into the bathroom and start wahing it out for an hour. Thats why i did it yesterday evening. Mike Now, Mike, I am having to make all of the tellings that the good Prof. Hans was instructing you to MACERATE your horn, not what you thought and if you are doing that other thing, that is normal for a teenager and nothing to be ashamed of but there are other lists to go to to make the publications of it on since this is a HORN list, not a HORNY list! Seasonings Greetonings and Happiestest of Hornidays, Prof. I. M. Gestopftmitscheist Principal 8th horn and Principal 4th Wagner Tuber, Schplittenotendorf am Oedland Staatsoper und Philharmoniker, (ret.) Solo Horn, Exit 2 Brass Quintet Hornist, Broken Winds WW Quintet Solo 4th Horn (Leader, call me for bookings), Smirnoff Horn Quartet Assistant Associate Principal Mellophone, NJ Turnpike Authority Drum and Bugle Corps, "The Phantom Lane Changers" Hornist as Needed, L'Ensemble du Chambre des Palourdes Principal Natural Horn, I Soloisti di Feces Principal Baroque and Hunting Horn, Camarata Vongoleforte Adjunct, Part-time, Arms-length Professor of Horn and Pest Control, Exit 2 Community College, Exit 2, NJ Author, "The Kopprasch Connection," "Kopprasch for Fun and Profit," "Kopprasch for the New Millenium: Where Do you Fit In?" and "Hooked on Hornonics" Founder, Director and CEO, Universal Institute for the Study, Preservation and Dissemination of Kopprasch Throughout the Solar System Founder and Guru Extraordinaire, Hornaholics Anonymous Grand Poobah of the Koppraschian Kult Director and Program Manager, The All Kopprasch Channel (AKC), Kopprasch Public Radio (KPR) Host of The Kopprasch Factor on AKC and All Kopprasch Considered on KPR Founder of Kopprasch Depot, your one stop shop for all you need! Interplanetarily Known Soloist and Artist of Record Exclusive Bundy, Carl Fischer Special, Olds Ambassador, Sansone and Conn Artist Phone: yes Fax: yes E-mail: yes Website: no "What a friend we have in Kopprasch." ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Come to think of it I have a 100yd. spool of 80lb test strength spectrum fishing line. It is way too thin though but doubling up might do the trick as well... You know my only beef with the stuff is you need a really sharp knife to cut it. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:00:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of > equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I > figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one > strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on > several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been > warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand > UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of > 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare > strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to > see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, > so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Your Strings and Your Balls
Life is not worth living until you've heard Kopprasch No. 1 on Wagner Tuba. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Fascinating... I'd love to test that out. Right now I just use a spool of dacron (I have a good 100 meters left). So far I could replace the strings every week and have enough for two years. I wouldn't mind trying a spool of Polypropelene but so far my Dacron spool has about 40 years of string changes left in it. See my take again with mechanical linkages is that Murphy's Law applies. Sooner or later something on the linkage will become weak and break. It's the same reasoning behind a fuse, if you get too much electricity or too much heat across the whole line the fuse will burn out first before the rest does. It's also why there are grooves in the sidewalk. If the concrete is to crack it will most likely do it along the groove. In a mechanical linkage the weak spots are the ones that are the hardest to replace (the screws and the joints themselves). In a string linkage it is the string. What is more easier to repair? With string you can repair it in minutes (I mean in a pinch use dental floss if you have no string and its an emergency). Plus how hard is it to just store some extra strings in your case? With linkages how do you repair them? Not easily I can tell you... -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 8:59:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of > equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I > figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one > strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on > several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been > warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand > UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of > 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare > strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to > see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, > so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Your Strings and Your Balls
Now, I am having the mostest of confusings as to this fight about strings vs. balls because I have played many musics in many venues and I have never heard a string section with balls, in my mostest humblestest of opinions, and this is also true about horn and valve linkagistics and the physicals of valvology, but, this is now having the makings of the mootest of points, since, whether you have strings and no balls, or balls (not just mini but sub-compact or compact, or mid-sized, or full-sized, or super-sized, or gigantissimo-SUV-sized, or Greyhound-bus-sized, or M-1-Abrams-tank-sized, or 747-sized) and no strings, or any of those antique clockwork mechanicals (like the ones on my Carl Fischer Special Right-Handed-E-Flat-Wagner-Tube), neither your strings nor your balls will help you play KOPPRASCH NO. 1 with a good sound, the right rhythm, the right notes, the correct dynamics, and with a musical outcome that is pleasing to both your teacher, your audience and your mother, so let's all get back to what's mostest of importants, anyways, OK, because it's nice to have balls and it's nice to have strings but it's nicer to have a good lip and a good ear! Kindestest of Greetonings and Mostest of Fingerations, Prof. I. M. Gestopftmitscheist Principal 8th horn and Principal 4th Wagner Tuber, Schplittenotendorf am Oedland Staatsoper und Philharmoniker, (ret.) Solo Horn, Exit 2 Brass Quintet Hornist, Broken Winds WW Quintet Solo 4th Horn (Leader, call me for bookings), Smirnoff Horn Quartet Assistant Associate Principal Mellophone, NJ Turnpike Authority Drum and Bugle Corps, "The Phantom Lane Changers" Hornist as Needed, L'Ensemble du Chambre des Palourdes Principal Natural Horn, I Soloisti di Feces Principal Baroque and Hunting Horn, Camarata Vongoleforte Adjunct, Part-time, Arms-length Professor of Horn and Pest Control, Exit 2 Community College, Exit 2, NJ Author, "The Kopprasch Connection," "Kopprasch for Fun and Profit," "Kopprasch for the New Millenium: Where Do you Fit In?" and "Hooked on Hornonics" Founder, Director and CEO, Universal Institute for the Study, Preservation and Dissemination of Kopprasch Throughout the Solar System Founder and Guru Extraordinaire, Hornaholics Anonymous Grand Poobah of the Koppraschian Kult Director and Program Manager, The All Kopprasch Channel (AKC), Kopprasch Public Radio (KPR) Host of The Kopprasch Factor on AKC and All Kopprasch Considered on KPR Founder of Kopprasch Depot, your one stop shop for all you need! Interplanetarily Known Soloist and Artist of Record Exclusive Bundy, Carl Fischer Special, Olds Ambassador, Sansone and Conn Artist Phone: yes Fax: yes E-mail: yes Website: no "Kopprasch markets itself." ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Who Made It?
I got quite excited when I saw this instrument on ebay; it's very very similar to one that was literally found in an old house and given to me a couple of years ago. Mine is engraved with: 'Gerhard Schneider Master Model; sponsored by B & H' and I am thoroughly enjoying playing it. I have scoured the net for more information on Schneider horns but have found next to nothing so far. I was about to ask for some advice anyway so I might as well do it now! The horn is unlaquered and as I live in the tropics and also on the coast I am a bit worried that the extreme humidity and sea air may have an adverse affect on it. I've noticed some new discolourations in the last few months. Does anyone have any experience with this? Thanks in advance and I think I envy whoever that was who made a comment about snow recently. We are sweltering here with about 80-90% humidity and temps around 35C. I've just come from a rehearsal for a Christmas concert at which we are playing White Christmas, Chestnuts Roasting, etc. Mad!!! meltingly yours, Chris W - Original Message - From: Alan Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 17:44:43 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Who Made It? Re: OK, who do you suppose actually manufactured this old Alexander 103 clone Re: that's on eBay? Re: Re: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578549659&category=359 Re: Re: Paxperson? Boosey? Gebr. Alexander? Somebody else? Re: Re: Can't help wondering. Re: Re: -- Alan Cole, rank amateur Re: McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. Re: Re: ___ Re: post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re: set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/cwill%40graffiti.net -- ___ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 6:17:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: > Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small > screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix > the problem in a few > seconds I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 6:17:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: > Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small > screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix > the problem in a few > seconds I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
y=mx+b is about as much as I remember from math. But here is what I remember from reality: Last summer a sax friend and I took about a 5 hour trip to the Woodwind and Brasswind factory so he could buy a mouthpiece and I could play some horns. I spent about an hour each on a gold and a yellow brass 103 with mechanical linkage. I noticed absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, uncomfortable, inefficient, slow, or otherwise noteworthy aspects. It simply played like any other valves that I've ever played previously. I also played a 103 with mechanical linkage at a workshop last year and had an indentical experience. It's a horn. It has a valves. You push them. Etc. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a horn with this linkage based on my experiences with it. I did notice how uncomfortable my Schmidt wrap is and that I want to dump it every time I touch another non-schmidt horn! Chris --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can prove > it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. Torque > is > the following equation: > > T = F * r * sin (theta) > > Where: > > T = Torque > F = Force > D = Radius of where torque is being applied to > theta = angle between force and the angle of radial line > > Now with a force of say 1 Newtons (heavy fingers) and a radius of about .01m > you do NOT apply uniform torque on the valve with miniballs and here is why. > > When an open valve is depressed initially it is at 135 degrees to the center. > > This is in turn 45 degrees from the radial line. What would that Torque be? > It would be > > (1)*(.01)*sin(45) = .0071 Newton-meters. > > At the midpoint the line would be an even 90 degrees yielding > > (1)*(.01)*sin(90) = .01 Newton-meters > > At the end we would have an angle theta of 135 degrees > > (1)*(.01)*sin(135) = .0071 Newton-meters > > Now with strings what is the torque? Well the string always applies toque at > 90 degrees so it would always be: > > > (1)*(.01)*sin(90) = .01 Newton-meters. > > I rest my case. With strings you always have uniform torque and always the > maximum torque allowable. With mini-balls you always have variable torque and > > it'll never be but once per stroke at it's maximum torque. > > You could throw spring strength or viscosity of oil but that will not effect > the amount of torque needed to push the valve or the fact that mini-balls are > > uneven torque. > > Why would Schmid need to market this? He would stand to make money no matter > what you used, strings or mini-balls. Additionally he could make them however > > you wanted. > > What a silly comment... marketing indeed. > > I've tried mini-balls before, and they're such a pain to reassemble and take > apart. Like I said, I can restring a horn in a very short amount of time. > Once > you cut the proper length of string, tie the end, melt the other end (which > is a total of two minutes tops) re-stringing is a walk in the park. I can do > 4 > valves in about one-two minutes flat. Can you do that with mini-balls? > > -William > > > In a message dated 12/6/2003 1:55:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > Yeah, I've read it. The memory of it makes me smile everytime I wiggle > > my wonderfully fast, light, direct mini-ball operated titanium valves. > > > > You have to hand it to Englebert; not only does he make good horns, > > he's also a top marketeer. > > > > Stick to your strings brother ;o) > > > > All the best, > > Tom > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Inferiority complex...
Dear hornlisters, Please don't degrade and demean yourselves. It is very unbecoming of you who practice the gift called music. True music does not condescend to you, it builds you and the receipient up. The best of the very best to all, Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Thin-skinned individuals...
It's allright. Remote controls are one area where I'm getting to be the dunce... -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 6:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Physics is only 1 of the many realms in which I am a semi-dunce. > > Reading between the lines is another. > > -AC. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Thin-skinned individuals...
Physics is only 1 of the many realms in which I am a semi-dunce. Reading between the lines is another. -AC. ~~~ String and mechanical linkages are the two main categories. Alan, you should have read between the lines there that I meat all mechanical linkages, not just miniballs. That should have been pretty obvious if you understood the physics applications and equations I used. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Thin-skinned individuals...
In a message dated 12/6/2003 5:07:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > What about those all-mechanical (i.e., non-string) linkages that don't use > miniballs, just various other kinds of pivots &hinges? They're the same category - mechanicial linkages. My formula of torque applies to them as well. > And what about those semi-articulated string mechanisms that feature a > hinge at the 90-degree elbow of the lever? A lot of horns have that. In fact that doesn't change the Torque values at all because if you see the tension created at the string loop and contact on the valve stop arm holds the torque purely at 90 degrees through the entire arc. > Those old clockspring valve-lever mechanisms are simply obsolete, no? (I > don't recall seeing them on any instuments other than antiques.) Clocksprings pretty much gave the same torque as mechanical linkages do. But you're not going to be playing anything that fast on them since clocksprings don't really move that fast to begin with. > However that may be, the world of horn valve-linkages encompasses more than > > just strings &miniballs, eh? String and mechanical linkages are the two main categories. Alan, you should have read between the lines there that I meat all mechanical linkages, not just miniballs. That should have been pretty obvious if you understood the physics applications and equations I used. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn linkages...
Mr. Cole, I wished to share with the noble world-wide guild of hornplayers that when care and love are exerted in all aspects of the horn, from maintenance to performance, nobody needs to feel that they have been short-changed. All the best, Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Thin-skinned individuals...
What about those all-mechanical (i.e., non-string) linkages that don't use miniballs, just various other kinds of pivots & hinges? And what about those semi-articulated string mechanisms that feature a hinge at the 90-degree elbow of the lever? Those old clockspring valve-lever mechanisms are simply obsolete, no? (I don't recall seeing them on any instuments other than antiques.) However that may be, the world of horn valve-linkages encompasses more than just strings & miniballs, eh? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ At 06:52 PM 12/6/2003 -0600, you wrote: Tom and William, You are both right in your experiences. Rejoice in each others journey on the wonderful path that is music. We listreaders gain much from your insights and look forward to more lively and spirited banter. Some like "strings", others like "miniballs". I personally like both. Together we are strong, Divided we fall. Merry xmas, Giovanni ___ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Thin-skinned individuals...
Tom and William, You are both right in your experiences. Rejoice in each others journey on the wonderful path that is music. We listreaders gain much from your insights and look forward to more lively and spirited banter. Some like "strings", others like "miniballs". I personally like both. Together we are strong, Divided we fall. Merry xmas, Giovanni ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls
Thanks. I suppose it's the mathematical way of things for us to be too picky :) It's quite cold here but nowhere near what you're dealing with. Plus, we hardly ever get snow. Happy holidays to you too :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 4:07:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls > Date: 12/6/2003 4:07:47 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > William, > > I appreciate your fine technical knowledge of the subject. I learned > something and I thank you. To tell you the truth, though, I don't really > think that Tom was attacking you. I know that the printed word can > sometimes be very subjectively perceived. It is always dangerous to > generalize, but I would have to say that in the context of my experience, I > found many people with extensive backgrounds in engineering and technical > processes to take everything a tad too seriously. I am not saying that is > the case here, I am merely suggesting that I don't think Tom was trying to > make fun of you or insult you. I think he was merely trying to be a bit wry. > > With regard to Englebert Schmid and his ability to market horns, the simple > fact is that he has been very successful in capturing a specific niche of > the market. The history of manufacturing is full of extremely well made and > well designed products that failed to sell because they weren't marketed > properly. Excellence is in and of itself no sure guarantee of success in the > marketplace, unfortunately. > > William, I send you greetings from snowy New England. We are really in for > it this time, I fear. > > With best wishes and two euros, > > Mark L. > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls
William, I appreciate your fine technical knowledge of the subject. I learned something and I thank you. To tell you the truth, though, I don't really think that Tom was attacking you. I know that the printed word can sometimes be very subjectively perceived. It is always dangerous to generalize, but I would have to say that in the context of my experience, I found many people with extensive backgrounds in engineering and technical processes to take everything a tad too seriously. I am not saying that is the case here, I am merely suggesting that I don't think Tom was trying to make fun of you or insult you. I think he was merely trying to be a bit wry. With regard to Englebert Schmid and his ability to market horns, the simple fact is that he has been very successful in capturing a specific niche of the market. The history of manufacturing is full of extremely well made and well designed products that failed to sell because they weren't marketed properly. Excellence is in and of itself no sure guarantee of success in the marketplace, unfortunately. William, I send you greetings from snowy New England. We are really in for it this time, I fear. With best wishes and two euros, Mark L. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls
Oh yes and another interesting note is that you could add Hook's law to spring motion but that is a non-polynomial function. Oil viscosity and friction is also a variable but it does not change when a valve is moving. So in reality no matter how you slice it the most efficient way is string. If you get a nice Dacron or Polypropelene thread you should have no worries, especially if you replace it every now and then whether it needs it or not. Mechanicially you could probably figure out a way to apply close to 90 degree Torque to a valve but it will never be as perfect or as close to perpendicular as string. As to the comment from Hans about a string breaking, yes it can happen. However anyone should always be prepared. You don't drive around without a spare tire, so why not leave a small screwdriver and some extra string (cut and melted and tied) in your case? A small bottle of rotary or bearing oil is a must as well. Don't forget the odd pencil - no pencil means no job in some places. Miniballs can break too. However if you apply too much force on a string valve what will be the first to break? The string! At the very worst a screw will come loose (hence the screwdriver). With miniballs the linkages themselves will break first or the screws, leaving you helpless. Of course I may be too picky on this but in reality a lot of it is just common sense in my opinion. Why add difficulty? In regards to Tom's comment about me getting out more: Tom, if you aren't willing to think that deeply about something and would rather flick it off with some excuse or as some marketing ploy be my guest. That is not marketing for Schmid to write that. In fact logically he could make a lot more money by selling mini-ball linkages (extra time, extra work). Plus I could very well say the same thing about Finke and marketing. They argue to make everything lighter, but any way you slice it miniball linkages are heavier than string ones. So what is the point? And if you're going to resort to personal insults on this list please email me privately. This is a discussion about Horns, not about who is fatter/dumber/pastier than the other. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
If that's the only way you have to debunk my argument, then I win :) Thank you. Drive through... -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 3:26:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You need to get out more. > > All the best, > Tom ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
On 6 Dec 2003, at 11:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can prove it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. Torque is the following equation: You need to get out more. All the best, Tom -- My ol' grandaddy taught me to always; post in plain text, quote only that portion to which you are replying, post replies at the bottom. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] *correction* Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
In a message dated 12/6/2003 3:15:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > T = F * r * sin (theta) > > Where: > > T = Torque > F = Force > D = Radius of where torque is being applied to > theta = angle between force and the angle of radial line should be T = F * r * sin (theta) Where: T = Torque F = Force r = Radius of where torque is being applied to theta = angle between force and the angle of radial line Still the equation holds :) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this > happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
My strings have never broken before in my life. If you take care to maintain your strings and watch them AND replace them as needed they will never break. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this > happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mini-balls do not apply even torque (Proof included)
Schmid doesn't need marketing. That's solid physics for you and I can prove it. Now a mechanical linkage or string produces torque on the valve. Torque is the following equation: T = F * r * sin (theta) Where: T = Torque F = Force D = Radius of where torque is being applied to theta = angle between force and the angle of radial line Now with a force of say 1 Newtons (heavy fingers) and a radius of about .01m you do NOT apply uniform torque on the valve with miniballs and here is why. When an open valve is depressed initially it is at 135 degrees to the center. This is in turn 45 degrees from the radial line. What would that Torque be? It would be (1)*(.01)*sin(45) = .0071 Newton-meters. At the midpoint the line would be an even 90 degrees yielding (1)*(.01)*sin(90) = .01 Newton-meters At the end we would have an angle theta of 135 degrees (1)*(.01)*sin(135) = .0071 Newton-meters Now with strings what is the torque? Well the string always applies toque at 90 degrees so it would always be: (1)*(.01)*sin(90) = .01 Newton-meters. I rest my case. With strings you always have uniform torque and always the maximum torque allowable. With mini-balls you always have variable torque and it'll never be but once per stroke at it's maximum torque. You could throw spring strength or viscosity of oil but that will not effect the amount of torque needed to push the valve or the fact that mini-balls are uneven torque. Why would Schmid need to market this? He would stand to make money no matter what you used, strings or mini-balls. Additionally he could make them however you wanted. What a silly comment... marketing indeed. I've tried mini-balls before, and they're such a pain to reassemble and take apart. Like I said, I can restring a horn in a very short amount of time. Once you cut the proper length of string, tie the end, melt the other end (which is a total of two minutes tops) re-stringing is a walk in the park. I can do 4 valves in about one-two minutes flat. Can you do that with mini-balls? -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 1:55:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Yeah, I've read it. The memory of it makes me smile everytime I wiggle > my wonderfully fast, light, direct mini-ball operated titanium valves. > > You have to hand it to Englebert; not only does he make good horns, > he's also a top marketeer. > > Stick to your strings brother ;o) > > All the best, > Tom ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Who Made It?
I think remembering, that they got some horns made in former East Germany but labelled Boosey & Hawkes. The engineer was a certain Mr.Schneider then. The Alexander patent had expired anyway. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Who Made It? OK, who do you suppose actually manufactured this old Alexander 103 clone that's on eBay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578549659&category=3 59 Paxperson? Boosey? Gebr. Alexander? Somebody else? Can't help wondering. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Who Made It?
OK, who do you suppose actually manufactured this old Alexander 103 clone that's on eBay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2578549659&category=359 Paxperson? Boosey? Gebr. Alexander? Somebody else? Can't help wondering. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? String is the thing for me :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, > silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:31:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Titanium valves have the advantage not being very sensitive to change of > temperatures. They are very light, near to aluminium, don't oxide , do > (nearly) never stick. And if the stick, you just turn them on the wing > in the back, forth & back, and the work fine as usual. > > Just from my own experience as player (since 1957) and > advisor for horn > production (since 1978) & producer of horns (since 1996). > > Hans Pizka I'm impressed with your experience. The point I tried to make is that technology is moving far more quickly than many realize. You pointed out better than I did exactly how much modern technology is being directed towards the horns you manufacture. you're obviously investing substantial money as your contribution to the overall technology, and to be sure you stay aware of any developments you might use to your advantage to make your horns even better. I do a lot of the same things in my work. I actually make the drawings for the CAD DXF files, and I work with several shops in the LA area to produce the finished product. What I'm developing now is an unconventional mirror for projection optics. Single formula lenses of elliptical geometry just don't work at small sizes. It is proving impossible to make the light plasma ball much smaller than two millimeters in diameter. To concentrate that light onto a six millimeter diagonal LCD, with any efficiency, is impossible. I have found that if I make a reflector composed of about a thousand individual lenses, each single lens can be designed to project a focused image of the arc onto the target. Since the reflector is only 65 millimeters in diameter, each individual reflector is quite small. A modern five axis CNC is capable of machining the mirrored surface. Once I have the surface done on a stainless steel form, and polished, it is used as a mandrel for electro-forming the finished reflector. Calculating the complex reflector surface and then machining it is only recently possible. Your description of your horn experiments gives me a good insight into your areas of interest. If I come across any new technology, here in the LA area, that might be of interest to you, I will send it on. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
On 6 Dec 2003, at 7:40 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? Schmid has a great article on this: Yeah, I've read it. The memory of it makes me smile everytime I wiggle my wonderfully fast, light, direct mini-ball operated titanium valves. You have to hand it to Englebert; not only does he make good horns, he's also a top marketeer. Stick to your strings brother ;o) All the best, Tom -- My ol' grandaddy taught me to always; post in plain text, quote only that portion to which you are replying, post replies at the bottom. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? Schmid has a great article on this: http://www.corno.de/schmid/deu-eng/mechanik.htm";>http://www.corno.de/schmid/deu-eng/mechanik.htm If you'll notice the angle of advantage on ball-linkages vary from 135 degrees either direction. String always has a uniform angle of advantage at 90 degrees. (Those from their physics days remember 90 degrees is the best angle to apply torque.) Also with miniballs, it takes forever to unattach and put back on when I do rotor repair, and it is one more oil you sometimes need to carry in your case as well as more you have to oil. It takes me about one minute to fully string all four valves. Miniballs take me a lot longer. Finally with miniballs the angle of the spatula is pretty much fixed isn't it? With string you can put the level of spatula to anything you want within reason, and some even prefer the pinky valve raised a little bit to make it easier to hit. String is the thing for me :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, > silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re:Valve
Professor Pizka, By the time i read the digest which was around 10pm on a school day, I couldnt simply go into the bathroom and start wahing it out for an hour. Thats why i did it yesterday evening. Mike ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
I might but I don't think I will ever buy one unless a Schmid bell ring was installed :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > What theory? Be empirical. Try a Finke and find out. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] pope
Hi, I have two ... don't know which is current. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
On 6 Dec 2003, at 3:02 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting. However the mechanical linkages... to me they would appear to slow down the valve no matter what the valve was made of... Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. I was talking about machining valves for existing horns... I think it can be done even without changing the rotor plates, etc. One would think so. I didn't get the reasons but, when I asked at Paxman if they would retro-fit Ti valves I was told they weren't able to do this. As to carbon-fiber valves, it's an interesting theorey but sometimes you need the inertia in a valve. I wouldn't want them to be too light. What theory? Be empirical. Try a Finke and find out. All the best, Tom -- My ol' grandaddy taught me to always; post in plain text, quote only that portion to which you are replying, post replies at the bottom. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] A little humor...
Ach, milde himmel Hr. Pizka, I was just trying a little humor. I guess I'll have to return to transcribing and performing Rachmaninoff's songs for horn and piano instead of cracking jokes-woe is me!!! But thanks for calling my attention to the "Long and Short Calls" of Siegfried. Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone
MapPoint showed 1 Windpassing in Upper Austria (at junction of Danube and Enns, across the Danube from Mauthausen) and 3 in Lower Austria. Mapquest.com shows 2 in Lower Austria: http://tinyurl.com/y0hs - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:01 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone Misspelled. It is Wimpassing not Windpassing. But there is also Windhaag twice; but Bavaria has better: Tuntenhausen, Busendorf or just accross the Czech Border : As or Asch. The inhabitants are lucky that the letter "r" is missing. - Just a discussion during the first years of the 12 years Reich. "Good morning. My name is Krohn." - "Oh, my name is Asch. How much did you pay, to get the R into your name ?" - "Nothing, they took it away from your name !" -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Baumgart Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:29 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone You're referring to the Windpassing technique, developed in the Upper Austria village of the same name. John Baumgart ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/baumgart%40chicagonet.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] pope
does anyone know Mr. Pope's current email address? thanks Robert ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY
>From the AD: I was just informed in a report by Dan Rather of CBS news of an international eBay scam involving counterfeit cashier's cheques. As a consequence, I will now only accept a bank wire as payment. However, I will reimburse the purchaser for up to $25 for the cost of the wire. Good Luck with your bids! TC Talk about fear based media:) international is the key word thereand bank wires are far far more a subject of scam online especally for the buyer... Robert Marlatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is it the lighting or are the valve slides made of brass instead of nickel? If so this is a very unique 28D. Bob Marlatt Boston MA >from: "jdelarosa" >subject: [Hornlist] VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY > >Hello: > >For financial reasons it has become necessary for me to part with my beloved >28D. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2579006420 > > Thank you in advance for taking a look. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/nafai23%40yahoo.com - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY
Actually, 400,000 series Conn 28d's were not all brass. most of them were made with almost all brass, however the Bb valve cap and the mouthpipe were made of nickle. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY
In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:34:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Is it the lighting or are the valve slides made of brass instead of > nickel? If so this is a very unique 28D. 400,000 series 28D's were all brass. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] In regards to "Furz"...
It is "Rheinfahrt" not "Rhinefart". If you see the original title as is "Rheinfahrt", it comes from "fahren" not "furzen". "Das Schiff (Nachen) faehrt auf dem Rhein". In English, the title is translated to "Rhine Journey", again no "fart" implemented. But visit my www.pizka.de/LongCall1.htm scroll down until you reach the picture of Lucien Thevet & click on the blue line below KlRufVerunglueckt.rm to have fun. Or visit www.pizka.de/LongCall4.htm with the MIDI fun Long Call. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] In regards to "Furz"... Hallo Prof. Pizka, Is furz related to Siegfried's Rhinefart? Poor fellow-passing alot of gas but, then again, gaseous humor might have been something Herr Wagner excelled at. Wagner is and remains IMHO a master orchestrator and conceiver of noble and solemn melodies. Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] In regards to "Furz"...
It is "Rheinfahrt" not "Rhinefart". If you see the original title as is "Rheinfahrt", it comes from "fahren" not "furzen". "Das Schiff (Nachen) faehrt auf dem Rhein". In English, the title is translated to "Rhine Journey", again no "fart" implemented. But visit my www.pizka.de/LongCall1.htm scroll down until you reach the picture of Lucien Thevet & click on the blue line below KlRufVerunglueckt.rm to have fun. Or visit www.pizka.de/LongCall4.htm with the MIDI fun Long Call. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] In regards to "Furz"... Hallo Prof. Pizka, Is furz related to Siegfried's Rhinefart? Poor fellow-passing alot of gas but, then again, gaseous humor might have been something Herr Wagner excelled at. Wagner is and remains IMHO a master orchestrator and conceiver of noble and solemn melodies. Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY
Is it the lighting or are the valve slides made of brass instead of nickel? If so this is a very unique 28D. Bob Marlatt Boston MA from: "jdelarosa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] VINTAGE CONN 28D ON eBAY Hello: For financial reasons it has become necessary for me to part with my beloved 28D. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2579006420 Thank you in advance for taking a look. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
You said some interesting, but have you ever got a program made for a CNC ? Do you know how much these programmers charge for a simple program (as you said) to make rotors ? It seems to be simple, just a cylinder with a mini taper of 1 %, plus the two axles at top & bottom, perhaps taper too for 1% but the opposite way for top & bottom, some few other things too. Well, this task seems not difficult. But there are the two through holes in the upper part & in the lower part, where the cross-section should remain equal, even when the hole is squeezed, sharp edges must be avoided. This all results in quite a complex program, even short but complex. It costs me about 1.000.- USD each program, for a rotor or a piston or a mouthpiece. Does not seem to be much. But the program does not fit any CNC machine, as there are some differences. You must experiment & test run the program. If you have your own machine, fine. Then the special tools, made to measure, special made if not available at the right measure. Not important financially, if you produce the rotors in 60 or 120 quantities. But still 3.000.- to 5.000.- USD at one payment (material, machine time, operator time, tools, machine adjusting & cleaning, etc.). But making a single set of 4 valve rotors ? Better buying a complete valve system from the same maker for (say) 400.- USD or less (just valve stock with casing, rotors, "ears") & get your slides & main tubings soldered to the new "machine". This is all together not too difficult for brass valves or nickel silver valves (casings of the other metal off course). Aluminium is not to be recommended, as it corrodes terribly if in contact with moist & turns poisonous unless it is processed specially getting an extreme hard surface. This technique is used for expensive cars, where costs do not play a big role. But with horns ? We tried it successfully with double horn rotors, but gave it up. The percentage of imperfect coating was too high. We tried it with Viennese Pumpen (they worked superbly), but we got the same problem. The high voltage involved to convert the surface to extreme hard oxyd resulted in some lightnings which cut edges of, just mini cuts but enough to harm the perfect surface. As these rotors or pistons are not made in thousands, where a handful damaged pieces would not influence the cost calculation, the financial risk was too great. With Titanium everything is different. Most operators of CNC have zero experience with Titanium, which requires the cutting tools be with a different angle than usual, spindle running at a different speed than usual, cooling liquid other than usual, much more working time included. A work for the Titanium specialist. So the cost factor is enormous. But if they run, these titanium valves, they run forever. Lapping ? Well, be extremely careful with other dust near the rotor or the casing. Any particle fallen between (titanium) rotor and (whatever metal) casing results in an engraving into the inner wall of the casing, absolutely disastrous for the tightness. I play on a horn with titanium valve rotors. These rotors were hand made (dangerous work) on a small semi automatic lathe. But the man on the lathe had over 40 years of experience. He also made me some 4 sets of titanium pistons for Viennese Horns. One is in use the other will be ready next week. Be sure, I will report on the acoustical behaviour of this horn. The other two sets are reserved (if) for two players from an orchestra which uses these kind of horns. Guess who ? Titanium valves have the advantage not being very sensitive to change of temperatures. They are very light, near to aluminium, don't oxide , do (nearly) never stick. And if the stick, you just turn them on the wing in the back, forth & back, and the work fine as usual. Just from my own experience as player (since 1957) and advisor for horn production (since 1978) & producer of horns (since 1996). Hans Pizka -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:41 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? In a message dated 12/5/2003 5:00:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: > > I never thought of this before, and I'm sure it's very expensive, but if you > took one of your valves to a decent machining shop I'm sure they could copy it > into any material you wanted. And, if you provided the > material I'm sure they > could do it straight away. If you have access to a modern CAD program, you can draw the valve to scale on your computer. You can then then down load it as a DXF file and use it to program a computer numerical controlled lathe, CNC. Chuck up any material you like, and the machine will pop a valve out, correct to a couple of tenths. You might not have to lap it. Well, it's not quite that easy, but modern machines are getting pretty close. Setting up the machine is still time consu
RE: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Pizka Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:01 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone Misspelled. It is Wimpassing not Windpassing. But there is also Windhaag twice; but Bavaria has better: Tuntenhausen, Busendorf or just accross the Czech Border : As or Asch. The inhabitants are lucky that the letter "r" is missing. - Just a discussion during the first years of the 12 years Reich. "Good morning. My name is Krohn." - "Oh, my name is Asch. How much did you pay, to get the R into your name ?" - "Nothing, they took it away from your name !" -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Baumgart Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:29 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] singing etc. horn tone You're referring to the Windpassing technique, developed in the Upper Austria village of the same name. John Baumgart ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/stevo%40execpc.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/5/2003 5:00:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: > > I never thought of this before, and I'm sure it's very expensive, but if you > took one of your valves to a decent machining shop I'm sure they could copy it > into any material you wanted. And, if you provided the > material I'm sure they > could do it straight away. If you have access to a modern CAD program, you can draw the valve to scale on your computer. You can then then down load it as a DXF file and use it to program a computer numerical controlled lathe, CNC. Chuck up any material you like, and the machine will pop a valve out, correct to a couple of tenths. You might not have to lap it. Well, it's not quite that easy, but modern machines are getting pretty close. Setting up the machine is still time consuming, so one offs would have to be priced to support the shop time from beginning to end, several hours, certainly. A lot of technology is being developed to make it that simple, perhaps in ten to twenty years. Seriously, if you are careful to match the part being made to a proper machine, parts, like rotors, can be made from a DFX file derived from a simple drawing. It just has to get cheap. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] In regards to "Furz"...
Hallo Prof. Pizka, Is furz related to Siegfried's Rhinefart? Poor fellow-passing alot of gas but, then again, gaseous humor might have been something Herr Wagner excelled at. Wagner is and remains IMHO a master orchestrator and conceiver of noble and solemn melodies. Giovanni :-> ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
