Re: [Hornlist] questions for paper
--- Gordon, Heather [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm writing a paper...Here're the questions: 1. What material (concertos, sonatas, etc.) helped you most in preparing for auditioning for a major symphony? The vast majority of auditions require one of the Mozart concerti. Mozart defines a hornplayer. Sometimes Strauss. You should be learning the bread and butter literature, and some of the jelly too, as part of your musical training; all of the literature is important. Even Varese. The best preparation for an audition is auditions. Take them every chance you can get. Auditioning is an art-form unto itself, and I'd be willing to bet that like learning to play chess, you have to lose a bunch before you start winning. There are simply too many variations of play that must be taken into account. Very few players win their first audition, and the vast majority never win. Such is the nature of the beast. 2. What etudes best prepared you for auditioning? Kopprasch, Maxime-Alphonse, Gallay, Reynolds, Bach Cello Suites, Arban, Kling, Neuling... However, etudes don't really help you to prepare for an audition. Etudes are for training in technique that will get you to the level of being able to audition in the first place. They are a means to an end, that being a well-developed player. Besides...isn't an orchestral excerpt just another kind of etude? 3. How do you mentally prepare for an audition? In the same manner that I would prepare for any performance. If you think you will win, you might. If you think you will lose, you will. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of capable players psyche themselves out. Don't pay any attention to the other players in the warm-up room. They aren't better than you, they just sound different, and their sound may not be what the orchestra is looking for. Better is too subjective a term in a room full of relatively equally accomplished players. And remember - the toughest competition in the audition will come from yourself, not the other players. 4. Do you have some sort of ritual (music or non-music related) you do to prepare for an audition? No. Why add a ritual to a routine that you wouldn't do for any other performance situation? You're asking for trouble. The morning of the day of the audition is too late to practice. I once had a conductor ask me at a pre-concert rehearsal if I wanted to run through the solo in Tchaik 5. I said no, if I don't know it now it's too late. Besides...the one I play here in about an hour is going to be the keeper. 5. What advice would you give to college-level horn player about playing in general? Practice. A lot. Learn your scales. Don't be a specialist of high or low horn, master the entire range. There are no specialists anymore; well, very, very few anyway. Don't look for shortcuts; there aren't any. Playing the horn is learning by rote. Play every chance you get...band, orchestra, quintets, chamber music, musicals, opera, bar mitzvahs, dinner parties, whatever. You MUST get used to performing, and there is no way other than doing it. Learn to play natural horn...your aim will improve as well as your finesse. If you don't have a natural horn, just play your double without using the valves. Practice a lot on the F side only for the same reasons. Go to concerts and recitals. Go to masterclasses for other instruments and singers; learn how other instruments approach the fine art of phrasing and shading. Teach young people...teaching wide-eyed children to make noise on a horn will help you solidify your own concepts of how you do what you do in the simplest of terms; you're also passing on a time-honored tradition of playing the horn. And you'll make a few bucks on the side, which is really the whole point now, isn't it? Never blame your horn until all other possibilities are ruled out. Your equipment is not the problem; it's you. And again, please give your name and symphony (unless you're just doing this for fun). Thanks for the help. Gary Suits No major league teams, but played Triple-A ball in Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, and South Carolina. Had to win a few of those jobs. Heather Red Gordon [EMAIL PROTECTED] (If you'd rather answer these questions by phone, you can email me for my number) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/beowulf_36%40yahoo.com Get Firefox!!http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] questions for paper
Good stuff Gary. Heather, you should take his advice. Many excellent managers on the Major League level were excellent in Triple A but never really made it to the Big Show. Regards, Joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:04 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] questions for paper --- Gordon, Heather [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm writing a paper...Here're the questions: 1. What material (concertos, sonatas, etc.) helped you most in preparing for auditioning for a major symphony? The vast majority of auditions require one of the Mozart concerti. Mozart defines a hornplayer. Sometimes Strauss. You should be learning the bread and butter literature, and some of the jelly too, as part of your musical training; all of the literature is important. Even Varese. The best preparation for an audition is auditions. Take them every chance you can get. Auditioning is an art-form unto itself, and I'd be willing to bet that like learning to play chess, you have to lose a bunch before you start winning. There are simply too many variations of play that must be taken into account. Very few players win their first audition, and the vast majority never win. Such is the nature of the beast. 2. What etudes best prepared you for auditioning? Kopprasch, Maxime-Alphonse, Gallay, Reynolds, Bach Cello Suites, Arban, Kling, Neuling... However, etudes don't really help you to prepare for an audition. Etudes are for training in technique that will get you to the level of being able to audition in the first place. They are a means to an end, that being a well-developed player. Besides...isn't an orchestral excerpt just another kind of etude? 3. How do you mentally prepare for an audition? In the same manner that I would prepare for any performance. If you think you will win, you might. If you think you will lose, you will. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of capable players psyche themselves out. Don't pay any attention to the other players in the warm-up room. They aren't better than you, they just sound different, and their sound may not be what the orchestra is looking for. Better is too subjective a term in a room full of relatively equally accomplished players. And remember - the toughest competition in the audition will come from yourself, not the other players. 4. Do you have some sort of ritual (music or non-music related) you do to prepare for an audition? No. Why add a ritual to a routine that you wouldn't do for any other performance situation? You're asking for trouble. The morning of the day of the audition is too late to practice. I once had a conductor ask me at a pre-concert rehearsal if I wanted to run through the solo in Tchaik 5. I said no, if I don't know it now it's too late. Besides...the one I play here in about an hour is going to be the keeper. 5. What advice would you give to college-level horn player about playing in general? Practice. A lot. Learn your scales. Don't be a specialist of high or low horn, master the entire range. There are no specialists anymore; well, very, very few anyway. Don't look for shortcuts; there aren't any. Playing the horn is learning by rote. Play every chance you get...band, orchestra, quintets, chamber music, musicals, opera, bar mitzvahs, dinner parties, whatever. You MUST get used to performing, and there is no way other than doing it. Learn to play natural horn...your aim will improve as well as your finesse. If you don't have a natural horn, just play your double without using the valves. Practice a lot on the F side only for the same reasons. Go to concerts and recitals. Go to masterclasses for other instruments and singers; learn how other instruments approach the fine art of phrasing and shading. Teach young people...teaching wide-eyed children to make noise on a horn will help you solidify your own concepts of how you do what you do in the simplest of terms; you're also passing on a time-honored tradition of playing the horn. And you'll make a few bucks on the side, which is really the whole point now, isn't it? Never blame your horn until all other possibilities are ruled out. Your equipment is not the problem; it's you. And again, please give your name and symphony (unless you're just doing this for fun). Thanks for the help. Gary Suits No major league teams, but played Triple-A ball in Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, and South Carolina. Had to win a few of those jobs. Heather Red Gordon [EMAIL PROTECTED] (If you'd rather answer these questions by phone, you can email me for my number) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/beowulf_36%40yahoo.com Get Firefox!!http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or
Re: [Hornlist] questions for paper
1. any sonata, any solo piece, any concerto. Do not restrict yourself to one or two concertos only (like Mozart 3 or 4 and Strauss 1). Learn studying very quick. Learn how to study more effective by NOT practising things you can do very well allready. Repeat these things by running through to improve steadiness endurance. Concentrate yourself to the difficult spots. Learn to recognize these DIFFICULT spots instantly. 2. all etudes serve very well to improve the playing technique; all classical etudes are designed to improve not only playing techique but also musical knowledge skill to prepare you to anticipate things (the music to come during the next measures) within all the classical romantic repertory: Kopprasch, Gallay, Maxime-Alphonse, Nowak, Belloli, de Grave, Bergonzi, Ranieri, Schantl, plus some more preparation for the music of the 20th century: Neuling, Stary, Reynolds, Barboteu, etc. Learn to study these etudes with a minimum of effort a maximum of benefit. Learn to read the music in advance (without the horn) to get the fingering the breathing. Learn to read the music in advance while you are playing (always read one or two measures ahead). Do not get stuck if you commit an error. Remember it while going ahead, but return to it clean it after you have ended the etude. If the passage is very difficult (fingering), do it in the most awkward transposition. It will work then. 3. Go to an audition only, if you are well prepared. Do not prepare for Mt.Everest, if you have never climbed any hill. Find quietness the days before the audition. Avoid exposure to unorganized noise (disco, pops, etc.). Avoid alcohol strictly. But otherwise live on your normal routine. 4. Yes, there is a ritual. No coffee, as nobody knows how a coffee is prepared at the audition place or the hotel. It might influence your stomach painfully, which is not the best for the audition. Empty your body in time before the audition (got it !!!). After warming up (not too much), walk a few steps in the fresh air. Sit down on a quiet place concentrate yourself to JUST ZERO or JUST BLACK or what else. This is a superb relax (it is not easy the first few attempts) you can switch on your concentration like the light. 5. Listen is often better than playing yourself. Learn from the mistakes committed by others by yourself. Listen again. Listen. Listen And, feel the music. 6. Do not forget improving your general knowledge about everything special about the arts, the relations of colours, the relation of forms, the relation of abstracts (musical forms). Read scores try to hear them becomming real sound just inside your brain. A wonderful helpful experience. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon, Heather Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:31 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] questions for paper I'm writing a paper about what college horn players--getting ready to enter the performing world--can learn from horn players currently in major symphonies. If anyone wants to help me out, I have a few questions here. All I ask is that you give your name and what symphony you play(ed) for. If you want to give your two-cents anyway, be my guest. I'm interested in any responses, I just can only use certain responses in my paper. This isn't anything that'll ever be published either, so there's no need to be really formal or worry about future political careers or anything crazy like that. Here're the questions: 1. What material (concertos, sonatas, etc.) helped you most in preparing for auditioning for a major symphony? 2. What etudes best prepared you for auditioning? 3. How do you mentally prepare for an audition? 4. Do you have some sort of ritual (music or non-music related) you do to prepare for an audition? 5. What advice would you give to college-level horn player about playing in general? And again, please give your name and symphony (unless you're just doing this for fun). Thanks for the help. Heather Red Gordon [EMAIL PROTECTED] (If you'd rather answer these questions by phone, you can email me for my number) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
who are the 'bad men' depends on each individual's and nation's point of view But not in this case. Everyone knows who the bad guys were. Even the bad guys themselves know. The only thing worse than moral superiority is moral relativism. Everyone returns to dust; may their journey be a swift one. If I may be allowed to interrupt with a horn-related question; Q1: What is the stuff that Finke valve rotors are made of? Q2: Anyone own a Finke with valves of this stuff? Q3: If so, how have they behaved? (compare contrast with standard valves) jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Marching French Horn
OK Bill - you've opened a door, and I hope you're not sorry! Not only is the new Boston tubist a former member of a DCI corps, but so is the new principal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony. There is also a former DCI member in the Met trumpet section. Al Chez, trumpet player for David Lettermen, did his time in corps, as has at least one studio French horn player out in LA. Jazz improvisation has not escaped the world of the horn - Chris Komer, a very well known NY based free lance player (as well as NJ symphony 3rd horn and Burning River Brass member) marched with a very good group from California and is an amazing improvisation talent! And the Boston Brass features a former DCI marcher on horn. There are others of us out there in less glamorous positions - players who not only survived the experience of marching and playing at the same time (yes - it can be done!), but have gone on to make a few shekels at it, too. If you're really interested in what some former drum corps members have done since their 'misspent' youth - purchase and listen to the disk I've linked below. It showcases a very wide range of styles and performances - from French Horn octets (with some incredible performances, including a guy who plays higher than Tuckwell!), solo Cello, solo Marimba, a jazz tuba group, some rock and Latino based ensembles, and some all brass 'big band' style groups. This last group features your son's friend, Adam Rappa, if I'm not mistaken. http://www.bluedevils.org/merchandise/product_info.php?products_id=87 Sandra Clark Toledo, OH ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Oh no, Bill, that sounds far too simple. It is not the question to eradicate groups guided by hate. No, again no. It is necessary that WE change our mind our policy toward them by abandoning our elitarian thinking, our just business orientated thinking. WE (I say WE for US, E.U., J etc.) plunder the resources of military weaker nations, thread them with our sophisticated military power, spoil their environment, faith, language, behaviour, life. We spoil them with our junk food junk products nobody is really interested to have (but we buy), just to fill the bank accounts of a few No wonder, some of them, with a similar narrow mind as ours, remorse with hate hate driven attacks, violence with violence, eye by eye, teeth by teeth, like the Old Testament. But we forget living in the (so called) high sophisticated (mentally physically) liberated 21st century. No, we have fallen back to the deepest Middle Ages. Watch our language, how has it fallen to the primitivest level. How many millions in our maleducated society can really read understand what they read ? If you will not be my brother, I break your head. Is that the guide-sentence of this century ? It seems to be so.## Give up this attitudes of lamentation, if yours became targets of injust attacks. Force your politicians to preach forgiveness, tolerance, anti-violence (even it will become of disadvantage for you yours), anti-racism, cosmopolitanism, wisdom, peace, anti-exploitism And hate will disappear, but love each other will bring a better world. If you can contribute to that, by expressing love with the horn, you might contribute to the understanding of nations by the use of the music, the international language, but not by the big-bang-bang-wooom-woom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:00 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR Hit and run eh? Oh well Burke felt that actions of the British Crown (George III) were alienating the colonist. Let the colonies always keep the idea of their civil rights associated with your government-they will cling and grapple to you, and no force under heaven will be of power to tear them from their allegiance. But let it be once understood that your government may be one thing and their privileges another, that these two things may exist without any mutual relation - the cement is gone, the cohesion is loosened, and everything hastens to decay and dissolution. The fact is that there is a small group of people a foot in the world guided by hate more than anything else. If history has taught us anything, non-violence only works in changing the minds of people who have something other than hate as their guiding philosophy. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
The source of terrorism is not the impoverished nations of the world. The majority of the members of Al Qeada are from one of the riches nations in the world, Saudi Arabia. The current source of terror in Iraq is not from the underclasses in that country, but from the members of the Baath party who can't live the thought of having to give up the power they held over their fellow Iraqis and have to face up to the damage they did to the Shia and Kurds while they held power. I appreciate your optimistic view of the world. I just can not accept it. Visiting Bergen Belsen and seeing mounts of earth with simple labels such as here lie 5,000 dead or here lie uncounted dead make be believe that accepting the source of evil is not the way. I also look to more recent history, a small town called Srebeniza when 7,000+ died because people just stood by. You may be willing to accept that, I am not. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:46 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR Oh no, Bill, that sounds far too simple. It is not the question to eradicate groups guided by hate. No, again no. It is necessary that WE change our mind our policy toward them by abandoning our elitarian thinking, our just business orientated thinking. WE (I say WE for US, E.U., J etc.) plunder the resources of military weaker nations, thread them with our sophisticated military power, spoil their environment, faith, language, behaviour, life. We spoil them with our junk food junk products nobody is really interested to have (but we buy), just to fill the bank accounts of a few No wonder, some of them, with a similar narrow mind as ours, remorse with hate hate driven attacks, violence with violence, eye by eye, teeth by teeth, like the Old Testament. But we forget living in the (so called) high sophisticated (mentally physically) liberated 21st century. No, we have fallen back to the deepest Middle Ages. Watch our language, how has it fallen to the primitivest level. How many millions in our maleducated society can really read understand what they read ? If you will not be my brother, I break your head. Is that the guide-sentence of this century ? It seems to be so.## Give up this attitudes of lamentation, if yours became targets of injust attacks. Force your politicians to preach forgiveness, tolerance, anti-violence (even it will become of disadvantage for you yours), anti-racism, cosmopolitanism, wisdom, peace, anti-exploitism And hate will disappear, but love each other will bring a better world. If you can contribute to that, by expressing love with the horn, you might contribute to the understanding of nations by the use of the music, the international language, but not by the big-bang-bang-wooom-woom. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:00 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR Hit and run eh? Oh well Burke felt that actions of the British Crown (George III) were alienating the colonist. Let the colonies always keep the idea of their civil rights associated with your government-they will cling and grapple to you, and no force under heaven will be of power to tear them from their allegiance. But let it be once understood that your government may be one thing and their privileges another, that these two things may exist without any mutual relation - the cement is gone, the cohesion is loosened, and everything hastens to decay and dissolution. The fact is that there is a small group of people a foot in the world guided by hate more than anything else. If history has taught us anything, non-violence only works in changing the minds of people who have something other than hate as their guiding philosophy. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Marching French Horn
Sandra. . . I wonder if similar type (not identical, just similar) paths exist in other places around the world. There is a long held tradition of brass bands in the UK. Wonder if there is something similar in Europe, Asia, etc, -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SANDRA CLARK Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:34 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Marching French Horn OK Bill - you've opened a door, and I hope you're not sorry! Not only is the new Boston tubist a former member of a DCI corps, but so is the new principal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony. There is also a former DCI member in the Met trumpet section. Al Chez, trumpet player for David Lettermen, did his time in corps, as has at least one studio French horn player out in LA. Jazz improvisation has not escaped the world of the horn - Chris Komer, a very well known NY based free lance player (as well as NJ symphony 3rd horn and Burning River Brass member) marched with a very good group from California and is an amazing improvisation talent! And the Boston Brass features a former DCI marcher on horn. [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Bill, Hans, You are both right in your different ways, but without realising the fact, you appear to be addressing different questions. Regarding those who have already become terrorists, there is little that can be done except to maintain vigilance and work hard to hunt them down and put them in jail. Nonviolence is not going to persuade existing active terrorists to change their aims or their methods. Something more active is necessary. But that will not prevent ongoing terrorist attacks like the one in London this week, so long as the conditions remain that cause people to become so filled with desperation that a very small proportion turn to fanaticism, hate and terrorism, and a somewhat larger proportion provide varying degrees of support, ranging from providing money to merely looking the other way and not telling the police about anything they might see. Provided that there is a regular supply of new terrorists and adequate passive support for them, the problem will never go away. This means that political action is necessary to address the injustices suffered by the communities from which the terrorists come, so that those who are *not* terrorists see that there are other effective ways of getting justice. Only by doing so will the passive supporters be persuaded to withdraw their support. Only when the terrorists have been detached from their sources of support will it become possible to further restrict their activities and eventually capture those remaining. Note that I am not advocating negotiating with terrorists, though of course that is exactly what the UK government did to successfully bring peace to Northern Ireland. I am advocating that western governments act in good faith to work to put right past and present injustices, and by this means show the people of other countries that they need not regard the West as their enemy. Given that western governments have a long history of empire and other interference in foreign countries, which has resulted in many injustices which are felt by people today, this is probably a task which will take a generation or longer to accomplish. All the more reason to start now. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Jonathan, Bill, Hans... I think some of the solutions being posited might have worked with the economic terrorists of the past. However, for example, Ben Ladin is hardly from a disadvantaged country or society. His father is/was one of the wealthiest men in Saudi Arabia and his own personal fortune was financing his organization in the early days. He is hardly disadvantaged or desperate. In my opinion, pacifism will only work if all sides feel the same way and will respect one another. How does one confront religious fanaticism that is dedicated to the proposition of eliminating all nonbelievers? What is our crime, other than not believing in the Qu'aran? Allowing our women to be educated or drive cars? What economic advantage have we gained from them? Economic exploitation may have been very true in the nineteenth century, but most such empires are long gone. Their goal appears to be the destruction of modern western civilization and societies and, as an inhabitant of one of those societies, I have no plans in acquiescing to their goals. I will not attack them unless attacked. Then, if attacked, I will retaliate in overwhelming force... Regards (from an OLD -- 74 -- modestly decorated veteran of the Korean war)... Tom -- Thomas M. Spillman, Jr. Asst. Professor (retired) Information Technology MBA Program School of Management St. Edward's University Austin, TX (home) 512-267-4393 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Jonathan, I will give you a example how to deal with the past. It comes from China, where it was use in long distant history, that ALL enemy troops were beheaded. Butr there is an important example how to deal with the political past. It is on display at LINTONG. Does it ring ? No, surely. The Lintong accident during the Chinese-Japanese War, when Red Army troups captivated the whole general-staff of Chiangkaishek himself at this beautiful Tang Period thermae. There are some large pictures on display showing Mao Tse Tung, ChiangKaiShek, Chue-en-Lai, etc. standing in one line. The inscription reads: ChiangKaiShek, a big leader of the Chinese People, who later went his own way. That´s how to deal with the past, not eradicate physically. This display has be seen by myself in place not now, after things have become quite liberal in China, but some 20 years ago later on several visits. And further: we have to abandon our elitarian claim, that the Christian religion is the only one leading to the hail Other religions claim the same, but Buddhism is just a peaceful philosophy of life every single individual has to find his or her path in life. The so called religion is just of help, if necessary wished by the individual. Read elder etnological dictionaries or encyclopedias and wonder about the prejudice of OUR (white) ancestors. You would be terribly ashamed about their view. And this very particular (colonialist) spirit is still existant wide spread. Has anybody ever heard about the daily murders in the Southern provinces of Thailand ? Where teachers, monks, officials, housewives, children are slaughtered in the name of Islam ? They talk about islamist, but the murderers are the former drug contrabandists, robbers of any kind, which are disturbed in their particular business by the presence of a large police military force. Or do they just eliminate witnesses ? Sorry, things go off our horn topic due to the actual tragedies happen. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan West Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:27 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR Bill, Hans, You are both right in your different ways, but without realising the fact, you appear to be addressing different questions. Regarding those who have already become terrorists, there is little that can be done except to maintain vigilance and work hard to hunt them down and put them in jail. Nonviolence is not going to persuade existing active terrorists to change their aims or their methods. Something more active is necessary. But that will not prevent ongoing terrorist attacks like the one in London this week, so long as the conditions remain that cause people to become so filled with desperation that a very small proportion turn to fanaticism, hate and terrorism, and a somewhat larger proportion provide varying degrees of support, ranging from providing money to merely looking the other way and not telling the police about anything they might see. Provided that there is a regular supply of new terrorists and adequate passive support for them, the problem will never go away. This means that political action is necessary to address the injustices suffered by the communities from which the terrorists come, so that those who are *not* terrorists see that there are other effective ways of getting justice. Only by doing so will the passive supporters be persuaded to withdraw their support. Only when the terrorists have been detached from their sources of support will it become possible to further restrict their activities and eventually capture those remaining. Note that I am not advocating negotiating with terrorists, though of course that is exactly what the UK government did to successfully bring peace to Northern Ireland. I am advocating that western governments act in good faith to work to put right past and present injustices, and by this means show the people of other countries that they need not regard the West as their enemy. Given that western governments have a long history of empire and other interference in foreign countries, which has resulted in many injustices which are felt by people today, this is probably a task which will take a generation or longer to accomplish. All the more reason to start now. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Jonathan, From your lips to Rumsfeld's ear. (With apologies to my Jewish friends.) War is not conducted with weapons alone. One of the short falls of the US effort against Islamic terrorist is the failure of creating an information campaign to convince the majority of the Islamic world that the future for all of us is in peaceful resolution of disagreements. Force is not without use in this situation, it's just one of the tools in the kit bag. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan West Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:44 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR [. . .] I want the killing to stop. I want *all* the killing to stop, both of our friends and of our enemies. I am willing to explore whatever means will actually achieve that end. I am not prepared to countenance genocide, but short of genocide the facts demonstrate that force alone will not win. Therefore persuasion *must* be an element of the strategy. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
This has, as I feared, turned into a political discussion with each stating the facts that are obvious to them (including me!). Unfortunately, there is little agreement as to what the facts are. Accordingly, I'll not reply any further to this thread. I have not changed my mind, nor do I imagine that anyone else has changed theirs. However, as a last gasp, I have a question and a comment for Jonathan: How did we /persuade/ Hitler et al to cease and desist? I think our methods with Al Quaeda (sp?) will be about as successful. I will only respond to posts about horns and hornplaying from now on... Regards Tom -- Thomas M. Spillman, Jr. Asst. Professor (retired) Information Technology MBA Program School of Management St. Edward's University Austin, TX (home) 512-267-4393 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] descant horn
Could someone tell me what works(general and maybe specific) descant horns are used on, assuming one's not using a triple. Thanks, Ron ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Tom, If you had read my posts carefully, you would have realised that I am not suggesting that it is practical to persuade Al Qaida to cease desist. I was proposing that persuasion of *others* is a necessary part of a strategy for defeating Al Qaida by cutting it off from the sources of support and new recruits it requires in order to continue to operate. Retaliation in overwhelmeng force is in my view counterproductive because (for reasons stated earlier) the net effect is to increase the number of new recruits. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] descant horn
Giulio Ceasare - Handel Bach Cantatas such as Gott, der Herr, ist Sonn und Schild Baroque Horn Concerti such as the Knechtl Brandenburg nr. 1, Bach B minor mass... Those are just a few - of course there's more works - but those are the ones I can think off at the moment! Paul R. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:40 PM Subject: [Hornlist] descant horn Could someone tell me what works(general and maybe specific) descant horns are used on, assuming one's not using a triple. Thanks, Ron ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dennisbrainchild%40earthlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Peace ...
If one wants peace, you( or they ) must accept the consequences. I doubt these religious fundamentalist radicals will ever accept peace. Hiding in the love for community and brotherhood, terrorists thrive off the trust of others belonging to the same belief ,unless brainwashing is employed, it will never end. War will never be the same as it was in the two world wars, or vietnam, Korea. A strong UN must step up to fix the years of mistakes(yugoslavia). I truly believe our western culture is positive for the future for one Huge reason. The empowerment of the Female in controling her body for all purposes. This is the biggest fear among Men in all non-western cultures, more so the middle east. I will not spout my reasons of strength for the American Woman. Matthew Scheffelman Horn __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
matthew scheffelman wrote: (considerable spouting snipped) ... I will not spout my reasons of strength for the American Woman. I admire and appreciate your restraint. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] descant horn
Paul, not only for these works. There are delicate high arias in some of Mozart dramatic works or in Haydns sinfonias or in pre-classic symphonic works, which can be played on the double horn easily, but sound much better if a descant horn is used, as the sound is thinner. But, one has to know, how to make a descant horn sound nice sweet make it sing. This is not easy needs a lot of experience. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Rincon Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:12 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] descant horn Giulio Ceasare - Handel Bach Cantatas such as Gott, der Herr, ist Sonn und Schild Baroque Horn Concerti such as the Knechtl Brandenburg nr. 1, Bach B minor mass... Those are just a few - of course there's more works - but those are the ones I can think off at the moment! Paul R. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:40 PM Subject: [Hornlist] descant horn Could someone tell me what works(general and maybe specific) descant horns are used on, assuming one's not using a triple. Thanks, Ron ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dennisbrainchi ld%40earthlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
Matthew others, You forgot important facts or descriptions of the real situation: Women are not liberated (officially) in many muslim societies, but they are in command of the business the household in real life there. There are really resticted circles, where women are forced to use the Chador (veil), because of the existing super-jealousy of their husbands. But still there, women command everything except politics (but they work behind the scene). Women in muslim societies are protected against sexism attacks as there exists capital punishment for violators. If you were invited to a muslim house, you would know that the ladies wear Gucci Dior under their Kaftan. That´s the one side. Religious fanatics fight against the spoilage of their siciety by so called Western decadent behaviour, press, TV, etc. - which is our fault. Why do we export such senseless disgusting useless things to them ? Why do we always try to imply our view of the society to other societies. Are we really free ? I doubt. We live under the pressure of consumism, we nealy believe all what is told us by the TV, we believe it be the truth. An example: They also have brothels in muslim societies like in javanese (95 % muslim) Djakarta, but as a westerner you will never get any chance to visit one od these etablissements, as the Javanese say: That is our case, our territory, no outsider should touch ! We have to understand, that every society has limitations with no exception. We have to understand that we with our narrow (also !) view, are excluded from some parts of their societies. And we have to respect. Some of you talked about the rich being the source for terrorism. That´s right, as they special some of the super-rich get the informations about the super corrupt regimes in Saudi Arabia and ist super corrumped society (!!! E.g. sex parties of any imaginable unimaginable taste, which nobody could even dream about in his worst nightmare, just ten or twenty years ago !) and the former super corrupt regime in Iraq and the corruption in all near East incl. Israel, who sells even high sophisticated military equipment to their worst enemies by using dark channels over third party middlemen. All is BUSINESS, even the TERRORISM. Some events might even been arranged by our side, to get things done quickly, to join forces for the GRIP ON OIL and other resources. If we would give up this politics, we would have a chance to calm down the waves, perhaps, if there would not be another new business related reason behind the other side : POWER, GRIP ON WORLD POWER, WORLD ORDER, from one side to the other, no difference. But common men are BETWEEN. Right, between MILL STONES. We SUFFER by the egocentrism of a few on BOTH SIDES. I see no difference if I been hit by a suicide bomber or by a laser guided bomb or rocket shot from far away in a safe distance. If someone be killed or injured, I do not care which side has done it. It makes no difference at all. You resonate on Srbrenica, but what about Ugand Rwanda-Burundi; Etiopia ? Have you forgotten Biafra ? Cambodia ? Hiroshima, Dresden ? I do not blame our Western friends for these two tragedies. It was just politics necessary perhaps. I blame mankind as a whole, to let such things happen. Auschwitz, Mauthausen the other lagers ? I have seen them. We have the large documentary center here in Dachau I bring all my visiting friends to this place to experience the HELL. But why did mankind let this happen ? Did they close their eyes completely or were they drunk in their magalomania ? And we supported Pol Pot Idi Amin Saddam just for selfish interests. I just work through the official 8000+ pages of the official Kriegstagebuch of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (War diary of the suppreme command) to learn more about the facts, but learned, what nonsense came from The Fuehrer himself in his sermons for the generals as early as three years before the collaps, but all the generals remained silent until July 20th, 1944 when a handful of courageous amateur revolutionaries tried to eliminate the devil - unsuccessfully. But all the others remained TACET. That is our illness, our tragedy. It is ashaming for mankind. Deepest ashaming in the 21st century. I really feel sorry for this world, I feel sorry for all children. Their chances for the future are not so nice. For myself, baaah, 63 years have passed quite o.k. I am thankful for that, very thankful. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of matthew scheffelman Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Peace ... If one wants peace, you( or they ) must accept the consequences. I doubt these religious fundamentalist radicals will ever accept peace. Hiding in the love for community and brotherhood, terrorists thrive off the
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
Were that it was that simple. Take the case of Saudi Arabia for example. It's a kingdom ruled by the House of Sa'ud. The Saudi family came to power through an alliance with the Wahabbi Sect of Islam. The Wahabbi Sect is one of ones holding to a very strict, almost repressive version of Islam. The House of Sa'ud like many other governments around the world made a pact of convenience. It was what they needed at that time. The Saudi family has been a force for change in the nation. In the 1930 the Saudi nation established its first radio station. Their old Wahabbi pals were dead set against it because there was no mention of radio in the Quran, thus it must be of the devil. The first broadcast was a reading of that document. The King justified radio in his kingdom by asking how can this be of the devil, it is providing the words of the Quran across the kingdom. The House of Sa'ud was a force for modernization until a group of radicals captured the Mosque in Mecca in the late 1970s. They were objecting to the changes taking place. The ruing family put down the radical ruthlessly but this act had a major impact upon them. Even today there is officially a strict segregation of women outside the home. Places of employment must provide separate work spaces for women and men. Yet, many Saudi women looking for this employment will note on their application or resume that they are willing to work in a mixed office. In one generation the number of educated women has gone from 20% to 80%. That is 80% of the female population of the kingdom has received some formal classroom education. There are many restrictions on women written into law. Those laws are often more honored in the breach than in being obeyed. The Royal family almost follows a don't ask, don't tell policy wrt to women outside the home. The Wahabbis get to run religious police in the kingdom. They are the ones who enforce these segregation laws. Since the Wahabbis are a major fraction of the population and part of the Royal Family's power base their ability to enforce these laws varies from day to day as the Royal Family gages the need to control the Wahabbis. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
Guys, Please don't spam this list with political discussions - this is a horn list. Thanks. Bill Gross wrote: Were that it was that simple. Take the case of Saudi Arabia for example. It's a kingdom ruled by the House of Sa'ud. The Saudi family came to power through an alliance with the Wahabbi Sect of Islam. The Wahabbi Sect is one of ones holding to a very strict, almost repressive version of Islam. The House of Sa'ud like many other governments around the world made a pact of convenience. It was what they needed at that time. The Saudi family has been a force for change in the nation. In the 1930 the Saudi nation established its first radio station. Their old Wahabbi pals were dead set against it because there was no mention of radio in the Quran, thus it must be of the devil. The first broadcast was a reading of that document. The King justified radio in his kingdom by asking how can this be of the devil, it is providing the words of the Quran across the kingdom. The House of Sa'ud was a force for modernization until a group of radicals captured the Mosque in Mecca in the late 1970s. They were objecting to the changes taking place. The ruing family put down the radical ruthlessly but this act had a major impact upon them. Even today there is officially a strict segregation of women outside the home. Places of employment must provide separate work spaces for women and men. Yet, many Saudi women looking for this employment will note on their application or resume that they are willing to work in a mixed office. In one generation the number of educated women has gone from 20% to 80%. That is 80% of the female population of the kingdom has received some formal classroom education. There are many restrictions on women written into law. Those laws are often more honored in the breach than in being obeyed. The Royal family almost follows a don't ask, don't tell policy wrt to women outside the home. The Wahabbis get to run religious police in the kingdom. They are the ones who enforce these segregation laws. Since the Wahabbis are a major fraction of the population and part of the Royal Family's power base their ability to enforce these laws varies from day to day as the Royal Family gages the need to control the Wahabbis. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rkathner%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
Hey, if you think I am an ignoramus on horn-related musical stuff, just wait till you hear my cogent analysis of national world events. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. Please don't spam this list with political discussions - this is a horn list. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
To the lister who did not sign his name, This is not spam, . If the same subject is being discussed in six months time then I may come to agree with you. I prefer not to see ream after ream of horn-unrelated correspondence but the odd venture into the wide world can sometimes be enlightening. Please be patient for a while - there's been no animosity yet. :-) All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
From what I've heard in modern performances of Beethoven's 9th the 4th Horn Solo more often than not is performed by the Principal Horn rather than the 4th Horn. How long has this been the practice? Why did Beethoven score it for 4th Horn if the Principal would end up playing it? Was there that much difference between expectations of 4th Horns players when he completed the work and today? Just curious. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
Before the row about natural and valves starts, can I say that two weeks ago we performed Beethoven 9 on natural horns - the 4th solo was played excellently on natural horn by the 4th horn, Dan Coghill. (who is English). All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
I've never understood what it is about valves that's considered so unnatural. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 04:06 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Before the row about natural and valves starts, can I say that two weeks ago we performed Beethoven 9 on natural horns - the 4th solo was played excellently on natural horn by the 4th horn, Dan Coghill. (who is English). All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
I won't try to answer explain modern day practice but in answer to your question: Why did Beethoven score it for 4th Horn if the Principal would end up playing it? Was there that much difference between expectations of 4th Horns players when he completed the work and today? Beethoven did not score that part for 4th horn, he scored it for second horn--the second of the pair in Eb. It is a classic Beethoven second horn solo. Our modern day concept of 4th horn did not exit in Beethoven's time. The only situation where horns would be numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 is if they were all in the same key. Eric James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
Even then back in history, orchestras had a working plan and employment lists. Sometimes they wanted a very good player, but there was no appropriate vacancy. So they hired the better player, but he could be paid as a 4rth horn player perhaps (receiving some compensation from the budget for a defunct position). The plyer for the fourth horn solo in the 9th symphony was such a virtuoso, while many of todays 4rth horn players are not used to be exposed that much with this well known longer solo. So first horns, used to solo anyway, took over. Has been so the entire 20th century in most places (with exceptions, rare exceptions.) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:04 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th From what I've heard in modern performances of Beethoven's 9th the 4th Horn Solo more often than not is performed by the Principal Horn rather than the 4th Horn. How long has this been the practice? Why did Beethoven score it for 4th Horn if the Principal would end up playing it? Was there that much difference between expectations of 4th Horns players when he completed the work and today? Just curious. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th
Sorry, Eric, if scored for corno secundo, it means, it was scored for a player who had everything except the extrem high register , the clarino register. The modern horn player. The extreme high players were named Prim Hornist (Corno primo). Leutgeb was a corno secundo. In Beethovens symphony nop.9 there are brilliant samples of battere come secundo corno (in the 12/8 rhythm, the triades). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:44 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Warning - Horn Related 4th Horn Solo Beethoven's 9th I won't try to answer explain modern day practice but in answer to your question: Why did Beethoven score it for 4th Horn if the Principal would end up playing it? Was there that much difference between expectations of 4th Horns players when he completed the work and today? Beethoven did not score that part for 4th horn, he scored it for second horn--the second of the pair in Eb. It is a classic Beethoven second horn solo. Our modern day concept of 4th horn did not exit in Beethoven's time. The only situation where horns would be numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 is if they were all in the same key. Eric James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Peace ...
As I get older, I find myself less and less able to see things in black and white, as I did when I was younger. However, I've found that reducing things to simplicity doesn't require black or white, or good or evil classification. In the world today, and probably back to the cave man, we can put all people into one of two categories; A. those who feel empowered to personally take, or destroy, the lives of others, for any reason, and, B those who delegate retribution and punishment to acceptable authority entrusted to defend the rights of all. Either way can work, but majority must demand that one set of rules be applied to everyone. The day of the sword and sixgun is fairly recent. If you carried a weapon, best be prepared to use it. I have cats that like to kill birds. The cat's aren't evil, they're cats. A tree hugger neighbor put bells on the cats to protect her bird feeder. One by one the cats disappeared. Those bells were dinner bells to the local coyotes. The coyotes aren't evil, they're coyotes. I told the tree hugger I'd put the bells back on if she arranges the extermination of the coyotes. Interestingly, a mountain lion ate a bicyclist a few months back and started talk of eradicating the lions. Fortunately, they're protected because they eat the coyotes. People collectively have to decide what to do. With all the scare about terrorists, the US is constantly putting violent sex offenders back on the street, which creates far more victims, by far, than the terrorists do. Terrorists are usually satisfied to cause disruption. In the US, government agencies keep sex offenders supplied with Viagra. Saturday Night Live should spoof that commercial. Then again, we probably make a lot of money on the terrorist munitions. -Original Message- From: Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:24:17 +0200 Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Peace ... Matthew others, You forgot important facts or descriptions of the real situation: Women are not liberated (officially) in many muslim societies, but they are in command of the business the household in real life there. There are really resticted circles, where women are forced to use the Chador (veil), because of the existing super-jealousy of their husbands. But still there, women command everything except politics (but they work behind the scene). Women in muslim societies are protected against sexism attacks as there exists capital punishment for violators. If you were invited to a muslim house, you would know that the ladies wear Gucci Dior under their Kaftan. That´s the one side. Religious fanatics fight against the spoilage of their siciety by so called Western decadent behaviour, press, TV, etc. - which is our fault. Why do we export such senseless disgusting useless things to them ? Why do we always try to imply our view of the society to other societies. Are we really free ? I doubt. We live under the pressure of consumism, we nealy believe all what is told us by the TV, we believe it be the truth. An example: They also have brothels in muslim societies like in javanese (95 % muslim) Djakarta, but as a westerner you will never get any chance to visit one od these etablissements, as the Javanese say: That is our case, our territory, no outsider should touch ! We have to understand, that every society has limitations with no exception. We have to understand that we with our narrow (also !) view, are excluded from some parts of their societies. And we have to respect. Some of you talked about the rich being the source for terrorism. That´s right, as they special some of the super-rich get the informations about the super corrupt regimes in Saudi Arabia and ist super corrumped society (!!! E.g. sex parties of any imaginable unimaginable taste, which nobody could even dream about in his worst nightmare, just ten or twenty years ago !) and the former super corrupt regime in Iraq and the corruption in all near East incl. Israel, who sells even high sophisticated military equipment to their worst enemies by using dark channels over third party middlemen. All is BUSINESS, even the TERRORISM. Some events might even been arranged by our side, to get things done quickly, to join forces for the GRIP ON OIL and other resources. If we would give up this politics, we would have a chance to calm down the waves, perhaps, if there would not be another new business related reason behind the other side : POWER, GRIP ON WORLD POWER, WORLD ORDER, from one side to the other, no difference. But common men are BETWEEN. Right, between MILL STONES. We SUFFER by the egocentrism of a few on BOTH SIDES. I see no difference if I been hit by a suicide bomber or by a laser guided bomb or rocket shot from far away in a safe distance. If someone be killed or injured, I do not care which side has done it. It makes no difference at all. You resonate on Srbrenica, but
Re: [Hornlist] UK attack - NHR
Bill, Jonathan, Hans, others interested and concerned, check this out for
some background on the attack:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2742
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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