Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/9/2005 9:42:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A quarter of a beat is pretty extreme, and if the conductor was not complaining, and you felt like you were playing exactly with everyone else, there might be more to the problem than meets the ear. I wonder if the conductor was in on engineering the recording. Almost certainly, what was heard from the podium was not what was heard by the microphones. Many really fine performances can be ruined by the recording engineers. This is my personal pet peeve with quite a few recordings these days. Great performance, lousy recording. You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
There are several reasons suggested for this problem. Unless the horns are miked and tracked separately, it doesn't seem likely to blame the delay on the sound engineers. The fact that the horns are the only ones late suggests that it is not a problem understanding the conductor's beet. Rather it is most likely a timing problem caused by 1) the way the horns attack entrances or 2) the time delay of the reflected sound. For the first point it seems important for the hornists to be completely ready at least a beat ahead of the entrance, if possible, with air support, embouchure and tongue position so that at the moment of the attack all you need to do is release the tongue and the note plays; for some players this may take some practice to do this. Phil Meyers recommends preparing for an entrance in time with the rhythm: breathe, set, release. It is very important for horn players to be ready ahead of the beat so that they can more easily compensate for the time delay of the reflected sound. If you attack the entrance exactly on the beat or exactly with the instruments around you, the horn sound will be late. A beat before the entrance is too late to be getting ready to play. Regarding the second point, the reflected sound, the ideal distance between the bell and the reflector is 6 feet or approximately 2 meters and the bells and or reflector surface should be positioned so that the sound is reflected past or around the bell, not straight back into it. For most of us, the reflector is the back wall. A curtain in front of the back wall is not a reflector, but if the curtain material is particularly heavy, it may be a sound absorber; in that case you may need to place a portable reflector in front of the curtain. At six feet, the sound delay is tolerable (5-6 milliseconds) and is usually barely noticeable by the audience but may be quite noticeable in a digital recording. It might seem obvious then that the closer your bell is to the reflector surface the better because it reduces the delay, but this turns out to be not true. If the bell is closer than four feet, then the sound cannot reflect around or past the bell effectively and much or all of the sound reflects back into the bell so you have quite a battle going on trying to push out new sound while the old sound is trying to get back in. This leads to exhausted players and missed notes and the poor audience doesn't get their due. Farther than six feet and the sound delay becomes noticeably objectionable. The faster the tempo, the more noticeable the delay and the more necessary to articulate ahead. At mm 60, each beat is 1000 milliseconds, a delay of 5 milliseconds is .5% (hardly noticeable). At mm 120, each beat is 500 milliseconds, so a delay of 5 milliseconds is 1% of a beat (more noticeable) and so on. This is what makes after beats such a challenge at fast tempos for hornists; as the tempo gets faster you have to play after beats closer to the beat or they will sound later and later. This is why it helps to have the snare drums also play after beats, because they don't have the delay problem that horns have, then you just sync with the drums. If you are hearing a 1/4 beat delay, them my guess is that your bells are at least 15 feet or more from a reflecting surface or else you don't have a useful reflecting surface, like when a band or orchestra is positioned in the middle of an auditorium away from any walls. Sometimes we have to play with the horns jammed up against the back wall. The only solution I have for this situation is to sit at an angle to the wall so the sound is reflected past the bell to one side or the other like a pool ball deflecting off the edge of the table. The angle has to be such that the sound is reflected between the players and not into your neighbor's bell. The biggest obstacle to solving the delay problem is often the setup crew and/or the conductor who more often than not don't have a clue or a care about the correct positioning of horns in regards to the reflecting surface and get quite angry if you try to educate them. Ensembles are usually setup from the podium to back (as if the conductor is the most important) and the horns end up where they end up; the correct setup should be from the back to the front starting with the correct position for the horns. Such is the life of a hornist. Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 6:00 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra,
[Hornlist] Louis J. Stout
Could someone, who still has it, email me a copy of Louis' passing which appeared on the list this weekend? I've already deleted mine and subsequently learned that I needed to keep a copy of it. Thanks, Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
As said before: well, Loren, much theory, but practica is a bit different, perhaps. Quoting myself: Well, you should agree with other sections on which zigzag of the conductors beat all should release their sound. If you play after the beat (as trombones do too often !), you will be late. Everybody has to come with the beat, which means, all have to link in with the conductors beat, feel it play with it. Acoustically: if there is too much space between the horns a wall behind, reflecting their sound, it might take longer for the sound to reach the mic indeed. Trying a different seating (as recommended by others) would help as well as certain sound reflectors (sound shields) well behind the horns, say some one meter or 1.5. This is a field for experiments. But how would you manage precise playing, if you had to anticipate every note ? Impossible. And if, how far apart from the other instruments would the horns be playing, as most horns tend to be a bit early anyway. It is all right true, what you said, special when quoting Phil Myers. All players in the ensemble should play WITH THE BEAT, not when the baton hits ground (means when the beat arrives at the lowest point). The sound must come TOGETHER with the conductors stroke. How to get it ? Command your tongue lips to sound release, when the conductor moves his baton, and release the sound (air) instantly WITHOUT any delay, never as Oooompah. Pronounce Oooompah, to get the wrong feeling, to know, how it must not be, and do it the right way. The Oooompah might also be called the Ketchup attack. Try it with a bottle of Ketchup to know the effect: shake the bottle splash comes out with delay. So the attack of many horn players. Correct that you will be in heaven. Viel Spass !!! = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Mayhew Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:46 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat There are several reasons suggested for this problem. Unless the horns are miked and tracked separately, it doesn't seem likely to blame the delay on the sound engineers. The fact that the horns are the only ones late suggests that it is not a problem understanding the conductor's beet. Rather it is most likely a timing problem caused by 1) the way the horns attack entrances or 2) the time delay of the reflected sound. For the first point it seems important for the hornists to be completely ready at least a beat ahead of the entrance, if possible, with air support, embouchure and tongue position so that at the moment of the attack all you need to do is release the tongue and the note plays; for some players this may take some practice to do this. Phil Meyers recommends preparing for an entrance in time with the rhythm: breathe, set, release. It is very important for horn players to be ready ahead of the beat so that they can more easily compensate for the time delay of the reflected sound. If you attack the entrance exactly on the beat or exactly with the instruments around you, the horn sound will be late. A beat before the entrance is too late to be getting ready to play. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Louis J. Stout
Loren, here it is: Dear Colleagues: Nancy Fako sent this information to me--and I am taking the liberty of forwarding it on to all of you. You may have already received this information. It is sad news. However, I know you would want to know. I talked to Mrs. Stout on the phone this evening. They are planning a Memorial Service around the return of their son Gordon from Thailand -- in a couple of weeks. We all have great memories of Louis Stout and his many contributions to horn playing. It was wonderful that Skip Snead hosted such a great tribute to him at the Symposium this summer. Randall E. Faust Dear Friends, Louie passed at approximately 7:00 am eastern time this morning. He had his right leg amputated below the knee three days ago and told the nurses when he woke early this morning that he felt good. He went back to sleep and never woke up. The memorial service is pending. Please email Louie Jr. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you would like to be included. Meanwhile I know the family would like to hear from you ... Glennis is so lost by the absence of his presence. Glennis Stout - 3334 South 114th St., Omaha, NE 68144 - 402-334-9534. Love, Suzanne Butler -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Mayhew Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:50 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Louis J. Stout Could someone, who still has it, email me a copy of Louis' passing which appeared on the list this weekend? I've already deleted mine and subsequently learned that I needed to keep a copy of it. Thanks, Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hello Paul, I think the problem is by far more complex. Incompetence (conductors producers) mixed with low cash return (companies producing electronic consumer media) leads to rush things (micing, seating, halls, editing, etc.). But the main problems for recordings is the feed-back, so to say the SALE. As long as pop music could pay for classical recordings, the world was in good order, but as soon as we all got good copy machines (PC, MAC), the whole world started to copy their favourite songs the sales declined dramatically. And the law maker even granted the right to copy up to seven copies for private use. Ridiculous, indeed. It reduced the sales to a mere 20% of the former numbers. So it happen to the classical music lately to the DVD. There are plenty sellers on ebay, selling illegal products from China, even copying the wrong Japanese spelling of names by the original Japanese producers, which I doubt very much if they produced kosher products ... So no wonder, that most well selling orchestras got out of the recording business except ViennaPO BerlinPO, perhaps, but reduced also. Good productions are so costly, no big brand can afford paying between half one million USD just to produce Meistersingers under a (even) not well selling conductor. Who of the conductors is selling well at all ? Mehta, just joking, Maazel, just so-so, Muti, not really, - interesting, that most names start with M, while the big sellers (all dead now) had names with a K in front: Karajan, Kubelik, Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Kletzki, Kleiber (Erich), K-arl Boehm, etc. The new recordings are often arranged to please the ego of a new GMD (Generalmusicdirector), sponsored by xy-company, the orchestras main sponsor. But nobody buys these recordings, so they give them free to their subscribers. Ooops, dont forget the fee one has to pay to the authors association, quite an amount, if you calculate the expenses for a CD. This fee is calculated at about 8% from the list price has to be paid in advance of the sales for the full bunch of pressed CDs, no matter if you can sell them or not, except you get the recording done by a big company. They pay this fee according to the sales. But it means, there is no or nearly no financial feed back. This is not a joke, it is real. And, the producer gets just 45% of the list price but has to pay for all expenses. The selling chain eats up most of the cake. And, the producer has to pay all the promotion, the bank credit, interest, artists, conductors, musicians, hall, equipment, insurance ... But some of us complain about crap productions of mediocre orchestras. Insane Living on another planet, perhaps. The Golden Years are over, they are history. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:45 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
A flaky lacquer concentrates deposits of hand oils and salts. Serious pitting can result. -Original Message- From: Bill Gross [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:36:54 -0500 Subject: RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered What about a double horn that is say 30+ years old with the lacquer departing the horn in bits and pieces and many small scratches? Is there any value other than that of appearance to completely remove it, or have it refinished? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:37 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered Sorry, sorry, Alan, I thought the same for years, - until they moved us in the pit, so we sat very unfavoreable acoustically, playing right below the stage into the grave where the percussion was placed before. No problems with a lacquered double or better say, very little problems, but when using the Viennese single F with it´s much less resonating mass, what a difference when I got it delacquered, a very positive change. Yes, it makes a difference if the instrument is lacquered or not. Also, it is a big difference if an instrument is lacquered or silver plated, as plating means a permanent perfect binding between the metal of the instrument the electrolytic applicated silver, while the lacquer is applied but not bound to the metal chemically, as you can get it off easily, while removing the electrolytic plating is only possible by depolishing it mechanically as a part of the metal body. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:17 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered If you can't hear a difference, the audience can't, the conductor can't, your section colleagues can't, and the differences (such as they are, if any) between the sounds coming out of lacquered unlacquered horns are so tiny as to be detectable only by highly sensistive electronic instrumentation, then as a practical matter there is virtually no difference. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nada. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 01:24 PM 10/9/2005, you wrote: I wonder if taking laquer off the instrument realy contributes to its sound . can anyone (horn builders and repair techs especialy , but realy -anyone ) tell me? Alon Reuven , Israel -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: anticipating afterbeats
Loren Mayhews responce needs to be archived in perpetuity for every hornist. Conductors and stage personnel will listen to a reasonable solution after a botched perfomance due to improper stage setup. For armed with Lorens' explanation and ameniable staff, proper horn balance should be resolved. The conductor of local orchestra placed the horns on third risers 40+ feet from reciprocating wall in the nave of a church. The resulting cacaphony was ludicrous. After the peerformance he confronted the horns wanting to know what's your problem. He didn't like the answer, but horn placement and sound reflectors have been utilzed ever since. --wabotte ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: anticipating afterbeats
Agreed...this morning I sent Loren's response to the other hornists of our orchestra, as a minidisc recording I made last rehearsal shows we need to be thinking about this, though our problem is poor entrance preparation rather than poor stage placement. Fred -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of WIlliam Botte Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:20 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: anticipating afterbeats Loren Mayhews responce needs to be archived in perpetuity for every hornist. Conductors and stage personnel will listen to a reasonable solution after a botched perfomance due to improper stage setup. For armed with Lorens' explanation and ameniable staff, proper horn balance should be resolved. The conductor of local orchestra placed the horns on third risers 40+ feet from reciprocating wall in the nave of a church. The resulting cacaphony was ludicrous. After the peerformance he confronted the horns wanting to know what's your problem. He didn't like the answer, but horn placement and sound reflectors have been utilzed ever since. --wabotte ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fred.baucom%40ftb.ca.gov ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Thema und Variationen, Franz Strauss
I have two publishings of the subject pieceone modern German and one Soviet. There are several difference, all of which Ive been able to resolve except one. I am hoping someone on the list knows which is correct. The pickup to the 4th bar before the end of the 2nd repeat in Variation II is f slurring up to b-flat in the German version; in the Soviet version, f slurs up to d. I suspect the f to b-flat slur (the German version) is what Franz probably intended because it is a repeat of the beginning of the Variation II, but the f to d slur (Soviet version) is also plausible musically. Can anyone state with authority which is correct? Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Fwd: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague
Excuse the double post; I don't recall from whence the message came. I do think you might help the converted trumpet player. First, he has been used to an instrument pitched a P4 above the horn. Jumping to the next higher harmonic would be a result of feeling and hearing pitches from his embouchure that are higher. First, check his embouchure. Make sure he is not using a trumpet setting for his lips. Using more upper lip would help his low register and help groove his mouthpiece in a consistent horn setting. The main thing is to repeat attacks. I suggest playing various chromatic scales with this method: Play an eighth note or quarter note with an accented attack; almost a bell tone. Then take the mouthpiece away from the lips, reset the embouchure and play the note again. Do this at least five times on each pitch in the chromatic scale. If he misses any note, repeat the five note sequence. DO Not go on until you get 5 well-played, sonorous notes. Do this at least once a day after warming up a little. The next day, change to another chromatic scale, and each day thereafter until the exercise has been successful on very low scales and then with higher scales. When he can play a note without missing it for 20 or 30 attacks, resetting his embouchure between all of the notes, the odds get pretty high that he can hit the 31st attack on the nose. There must be a kinesthetic feel of each note on the horn and it is achieved more quickly with these spaced repetitions. It works for me and for many, many students during the last 40 years or so. It is not necessary to hear the note in advance, but there must be muscle memory for the feel of every note. That muscle memory is what he needs to work on in my opinion. CORdially, Mansur's Answers Begin forwarded message: Hello Fellow Hornists I play principal in a local volunteer community orchestra. My second took up the horn some years ago after playing trumpet for most of his life. He's quite able, but gets tense in exposed passages, to the extent that he often jumps up a harmonic - and I think doesn't notice quickly enough, again because of the tension. He can get it right when we work alone, and at home in practice (I believe). His fingering is fine! Other symptoms appear as a loss of low register - downward octave leaps (or bigger) often get smaller! This is a bit of a problem in the classical repertoire! I've advised home to look at etudes (Kopprasch, Arban) which have big leaps in, to play along with recordings, and to note down what I play so he knows what to listen out for. However, things have got a bit stuck, and he still makes the same sort of error. Does anyone have any experience of this, and how did they help? David K -- Systemsolve Pty Ltd 03 9833 4421/0413 043 586 http://www.systemsolve.net http://www.music.systemsolve.net __ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Lacquered vs unlacquered
First off - I'm biased - I prefer unlacquered horns (from both a playing and repairing standpoint). Second: If you consider the thickness of the brass (or nickel) in a typical horn flare - then consider that it is sprayed with lacquer on both the inside and the outside, it is not uncommon to find that there is more lacquer than brass dimensionally! It does inhibit the production of the higher frequencies Third: If you think its going to make a difference - it will... Sincerely Ken Pope (never lacking in opinions) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 2:14:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the main problems for recordings is the feed-back, so to say the SALE. As long as pop music could pay for classical recordings, the world was in good order, Hi Hans, I was refering mostly to commercial recordings- studio recordings -jingles -and popular cd's. You are right about the other. The classical recording situation is much more complicated with the loss of the market for it . And yes, I also agree with you. The GOLDEN YEARS are history. In a conversation we had yesterday, Vince deRosa said basically the same thing-the good old days are over. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] anticipating the beat
Dear nick Yes , it is a common practice to anticipate the beat , especially in a resonant space , like a big hall or a church . I am playing in a chamber orchestra , and when I am freelancing in a symphony orchestra I tend to attach my beat to the movement of the batton ( that is , of course , if I am leading the section ).there are quite a few recordings out there where the horn section is late . you are in a good company .. Alon Reuven Israel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
I confess to being confused - I was helping a friend's son practice his audition for the middle school jazz band on the trombone. I thought the trombone was a B-flat instrument, and so it turns out to be in terms of the overtone series it plays, but the part is notated at concert pitch. On the other hand, trumpet parts for B-flat instrument are notated as such, sounding a step below written pitch. Horn in F is the same way, sounding the appropriate interval below written pitch. So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. Thanks in advance for a bit of an eduation here - I have not seen a score to the piece, only the individual parts for trumpet and trombone (and I'm quite sure the trombone part is written at concert pitch). -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
On Oct 10, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Trumpet and horn parts were transposed so that the player was always looking at the same written pitches as being open partials, that is, written c1 is always 4th partial, regardless of the sounding pitch. Since the trombone has always been a fully chromatic instrument, there was no need for that. The downside is that alto trombone players need to get used to notes being in different slide positions than on a tenor. The same goes for tubas - the instrument has always had valves, so when tubists change between instruments in different keys, they have to use different fingerings. Trombone and tuba parts (except in British brass band notation, that is) are always written in C. Dan ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leaks and Low Range
Hi list, I was in a horn class this past Saturday and my teacher's substitute noticed that I had leaks in my embouchure. I always thought something was weird because every time I tried to play in the low range, I would hear a funny noise. I have been trying to develop my low range but I know this leak situation is a problem. I believe this is the reason why I haven't really obtained anything close to an average sound and air capacity to control or even play notes in this range. Because of these leaks I can't play anything below an F below middle C. What should I do to solve this problem? Would more air also help in the low range? Your Hornliness James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
Yep, acoustically trombones are B-flat instruments. Notationally, however, trombones are bass-clef sometimes tenor-clef concert-key instruments -- mostly. (Some ensembles still have parts written for B-flat treble-clef trombones, like the treble-clef euphonium parts you still see now then. Most trombonists I know would be completely buffaloed at the prospect of trying to play off 1 of those parts.) Ideally, good musicians should be able to play parts for instruments in any key any clef. The trombonist in my brass quintet, for example, plays 1 of the tunes in our book off a treble-clef horn in F part (2nd horn). Not many bone players I know can do that. However that may be, there are plenty of folks out there like me who have major serious trouble with transposition -- an embarrassing fundamental inadequacy for any horn player, even a rank amateur like me. The downside is I don't play orchestra much, because odd-key orchestral horn parts pop up so frequently it's such a struggle trying to figure out what note to play. By the time I figure it out, it's too late to play it. The upside is I don't have to spend so much rehearsal performance time counting l-o-n-g stretches of measures of rest so boringly prevalent in some of the classical repertoire. We concert band brass quintet horn players have our instruments on our faces practically all the time, from intro to coda. (That could be how come I built up Chops Of Steel, I don't know.) -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 07:25 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote: I confess to being confused - I was helping a friend's son practice his audition for the middle school jazz band on the trombone. I thought the trombone was a B-flat instrument, and so it turns out to be in terms of the overtone series it plays, but the part is notated at concert pitch. On the other hand, trumpet parts for B-flat instrument are notated as such, sounding a step below written pitch. Horn in F is the same way, sounding the appropriate interval below written pitch. So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. Thanks in advance for a bit of an eduation here - I have not seen a score to the piece, only the individual parts for trumpet and trombone (and I'm quite sure the trombone part is written at concert pitch). -S- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/127 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instrumentsnow and then
Very good, Dan. Thank you very much. -S- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] du] On Behalf Of Dan Phillips Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:31 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instrumentsnow and then On Oct 10, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Trumpet and horn parts were transposed so that the player was always looking at the same written pitches as being open partials, that is, written c1 is always 4th partial, regardless of the sounding pitch. Since the trombone has always been a fully chromatic instrument, there was no need for that. The downside is that alto trombone players need to get used to notes being in different slide positions than on a tenor. The same goes for tubas - the instrument has always had valves, so when tubists change between instruments in different keys, they have to use different fingerings. Trombone and tuba parts (except in British brass band notation, that is) are always written in C. Dan ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Ancora? a little off topic
I just bought an instrument marked Ancora Gran Prix Paris . Can any of you that have the book tell me anything about the dates on this company? Over the brand is a Anchor. Does Ancora= Anchor in English? Nope it isn't a horn. LB ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
In brief, only the treble clef is used for transposed parts. Bass clef instruments, including Eb tubas, CC tubas, and BBb tubas all read at actual pitch, and always have to the best of my knowledge of orchestration. Transposed tuba parts were popular when the town band was in its hey day. Played and fingered just like a cornet in Bb. P Mansur On Monday, October 10, 2005, at 07:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: I confess to being confused - I was helping a friend's son practice his audition for the middle school jazz band on the trombone. I thought the trombone was a B-flat instrument, and so it turns out to be in terms of the overtone series it plays, but the part is notated at concert pitch. On the other hand, trumpet parts for B-flat instrument are notated as such, sounding a step below written pitch. Horn in F is the same way, sounding the appropriate interval below written pitch. So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. Thanks in advance for a bit of an eduation here - I have not seen a score to the piece, only the individual parts for trumpet and trombone (and I'm quite sure the trombone part is written at concert pitch). -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ancora? a little off topic
In a message dated 10/10/2005 8:12:39 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can any of you that have the book tell me anything about the dates on this company? Hi, Ancora is not mentioned as a maker in the 1993 New Langwill Index, however, there is an Ancona listed as a location of makers. Are you sure of the spelling? Sometimes the letters are difficult to decipher, especially if it's cursive. Regards,Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Leaks and Low Range
Just make sure your corners (of your embouchure) seal against the rim of the mouthpiece and voila! No leaks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:32 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Leaks and Low Range Hi list, I was in a horn class this past Saturday and my teacher's substitute noticed that I had leaks in my embouchure. I always thought something was weird because every time I tried to play in the low range, I would hear a funny noise. I have been trying to develop my low range but I know this leak situation is a problem. I believe this is the reason why I haven't really obtained anything close to an average sound and air capacity to control or even play notes in this range. Because of these leaks I can't play anything below an F below middle C. What should I do to solve this problem? Would more air also help in the low range? Your Hornliness James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sonjahornteacher%40cs.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] web site
Hi all, I have added a News section to my web site listing recent sales and orders of horns. Thanks! Wes Hatch _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Thema und Variationen, Franz Strauss
Slur f1 to bb1 is correct according to all sources I have. Main source : publication by Zimmermann / Frankfurt 1957 - they had access to the original. It is the first publication. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Mayhew Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 9:46 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Thema und Variationen, Franz Strauss I have two publishings of the subject pieceone modern German and one Soviet. There are several difference, all of which Ive been able to resolve except one. I am hoping someone on the list knows which is correct. The pickup to the 4th bar before the end of the 2nd repeat in Variation II is f slurring up to b-flat in the German version; in the Soviet version, f slurs up to d. I suspect the f to b-flat slur (the German version) is what Franz probably intended because it is a repeat of the beginning of the Variation II, but the f to d slur (Soviet version) is also plausible musically. Can anyone state with authority which is correct? Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
