Re: [Hornlist] Horn slotting characteristics
In a message dated 6/8/2006 3:38:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How important is the note slotting characteristics of a horn in one's selection of a horn? Which common factory-made horns slot wide and which ones slot narrow? Thanks. I guess mouthpieces significantly affect the characteristics of note slotting... (but, one thing at a time). Right hand position is also a factor. If you use a hand position that is fairly far out of the throat, the higher notes on an 8D will focus rather poorly. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Jon Boen's new web site
In a message dated 5/19/2006 9:18:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not 100% sure, but it sure looks like (and sounds like) a Lewis. Josh No, it`s a Berg. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Holton Horns H192 and H479
In a message dated 5/9/2006 8:12:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone played on or heard any information on these horns? My FA coordinator has asked me to take a look at these horns to see about havin them for the district. Allo I know is that the H192 is a Merker matic Geyer wrap horn. I may consider it for the HS, but not for the MS. My district is currently purchasing only 179 at my request since most of the MS have single horns in band condition, and the HS need a more consistent brand and a new stoc of horns. Thanks eveyone! Rebecca THe H 479 would be a much better choice for a high school, but an even better choice would be the H 378 or H379. Those horns are made with school bids in mind are priced accordingly. Wes _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Gail Williams MP
In a message dated 5/4/2006 9:17:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who makes the Gail Williams mouthpiece and do they have a web site? It`s been a while, but she played on a Schike 30B when I last played with her. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Opinions on YHR-567
In a message dated 5/1/2006 5:02:36 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I came across a classified ad for a YHR-576 for sale for $1000, which seemed like a really good price to me. The owner says they are the only owner, and that it has been barely played, since they moved to another horn, which is why they are looking to sell this one. My daughter has a YHR 567. I replaced the bell with one of the bells that I put on my horns, and one of my leadpipes. It was a nice playing little horn prior to the modifications, but it`s a really nice horn now. Wes Hatch _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Appalachian Americans
I took my Appalachian American nephew to a Cousins for lunch. He thought we were going to a dating service. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] slippery high Bb
In a message dated 2/3/2006 12:37:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi - I have a Geyer wrap double horn with a poorly slotted high Bb (concert Eb). The note is too easily splattered, overshot, undershot, etc. My colleagues have the same experience on this horn with this same note. The G, Ab, A, B, and C are all solid enough - just a squirrelly Bb. The valves all have good compression. I have tried different leadpipes (Lawson, Holton, Yamaha 867, etc.) and different mouthpieces without getting a satisfactory improvement. Anyone out there have any success with fixing this specific sort of problem? Is this a Yamaha 667? If it is and you have to pull the tuning slide 1 1/2 to 2" to get the pitch down, the problem is caused by the large gap caused by the excess pull of the tuning slide. A repairman can insert some inner slide tubes into your outer slide tubes to fill the gap. Your high Bb would be much better. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] repair technitians
In a message dated 1/11/2006 5:41:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You want a 5 degree advance at higher rpms to avoid valve float. Wes, is that correct? 6 degrees at top dead center, unless you are running a small block Chevy and you want to run 12 degrees. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Why do valves leak?
In a message dated 1/9/2006 5:56:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My theory is, make them nice and tight and in a few years it will be just how you like it. If you make them kind of loose, they'll be worn out in a few years and you'll have to have them done again. That was the argument that I ultimately presented at Holton. I thought people should have air tight valves to begin with and that they could break them in themselves, that Holton should not be selling people horns that actually had 10 year old valves! I showed Management the air test on my 5 year old Yamaha. There was virtually zero blow by or leakage. That Yamaha was doing this was a good selling point to Management. Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
Just before I began working at Holton , an experiment was done with Louis Stout. Louis Stout was as respected as Phil Farkas by Holton. Horns were air tested in the testing room on a manometer. If the air test was below a certain level, the rotors were taken out and plated and refit.Management thought that was a pretty costly way to produce horns. This was before new machinery was developed by Leblanc to make better fitting rotary assemblies. A number of horns were air tested and the numbers were written down and put away.The numbers were all within the allowable range, but some were higher than others. Louis played each horn and rated them in order of his preference. As it turned out, the horns with the lower air test were the horns Louis preferred. He preferred the response and the smoothness of the horns with the lower air tests over the higher air tests. A friend of mine was going to buy a Geyer. He took it to be checked out by a very reputable repair man. He was advised to have the valves rebuilt because they were not as tight as they could have been. My friend negotiated a lower price for the horn and bought it. He then had the valves rebuilt , and confided that the horn played no better with the valve rebuild. The horn played great before the rebuild and no better after. Not to say that valve rebuilds are ever unnecessary, but a little leakage seems to be not so critical. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Why do valves leak?
In a message dated 1/8/2006 9:40:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I try to convince my students NOT to buy Al Cass oil as I read the comments by Wes Hatch that Al Cass will gum up Holton Valves. I`m not sure that that is what I meant. Oil formulated for piston valves will eventually gum up rotary valves because oil formulated for pistons have wetting agents in them that allow valve oil to adhere longer to the surface of a piston. Pistons slosh the oil down and out of the casings, whereas when valve oil for pistons is used on rotary valves the oil can collect at the bottom of the casing and gum up the action. I`m not sure what the formulation for Cass oil is. If it has wetting agents ( sometimes synthetic sperm whale oil ) then Cass will likely gum up rotors. I know that Holton Valve oil and Holton Rotary oil is different. Holton Rotary oil is 100% filtered kerosene, and Holton valve oil is kerosene with synthetic sperm whale oil added for adhereing better to the pistons. Sorry for any confusion. Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Bach b1102
In a message dated 12/22/2005 11:17:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If the Bach is new, it is made by Yamaha: I don’t know exactly, which of the Yamaha’s it is equivalent to, but it hardly is one of the pro-level models. Bach used two Yamaha horns. One is the 567 and the other is the 668N ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hornlist] worst piece of music!
In a message dated 12/21/2005 7:32:54 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But, then, you must have played the band transcription of Till > Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks in which the arranger put all the themes = > back ON THE BEAT So far I have missed-out on that opportunity and, now that I am aware of it, will endeavor--vehemently--to continue thusly. And the low C is doubled in the baritone. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Pitch change off the leg
In a message dated 12/7/2005 7:16:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone out there explain why the intonation is lower when playing off the leg than when resting the bell on the leg? Maybe in your case your hand position changes a little when you raise the horn , and your hand closes off a bit. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Buescher horns
In a message dated 10/16/2005 3:14:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think only King actually made their own rotary valves up until Conn also started making their own in the 30s. I`m not sure who the first US manufacturer was to make their own valves, but I think Conn was the first company in the US to make tapered valves with tapered bearings. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] web site
Hi all, I have added a " News" section to my web site listing recent sales and orders of horns. Thanks! Wes Hatch _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] disrespect in the section
In a message dated 10/6/2005 9:30:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We had a superb method, used once in every single case. Catch the boy, pants down & polish his ass with black shoe polish, really polishing by a brush. But do not forget, putting a (potatoe) sack over his head first. He will have a hell, removing the black "ass". But you & your friends should take care, not to hurt him. This is the rough antic educational method, a very successful method for special individuals. Ha, I guess pinning his hand to the bar with an ice pick and then strangling him with piano wire is too severe. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] horn broken - This is awful advice
In a message dated 9/28/2005 2:19:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brasso is a very mile abrasive but there is a fine chance that the abrasive will stay in the horn and work on the valves for months How true!! When I was in the Army there was always the story about someone putting Brasso in the crank case of some not so nice person`s car. The Brasso was slow working but effective over the long haul for ruining an engine. By the time the problem was identified, so much time had elapsed that it was difficult to diagnose the cause. The perfect crime! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
In a message dated 9/4/2005 12:08:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: US Orchestras tune to 440. Many orchestras shift to 442 by the end of the concert though. Mary Gingrich was complaining to me once that when ever her husband, Dan, played one of her horns he left all the slides pushed in, because the CSO tunes to A=446. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn Grease
In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:57:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, it's probably virtually identical to Ultra-Pure Candle and Lamp Oil, which many of us have used for valve oil for many years. In fact, I suspect that most valve oils are exactly that, perhaps with a smidge of this or that added to it, and I know that brass manufacturers have used it. That`s true. When Alan Baer, now tuba with the NY Phil was still in Milwaukee I told him about lamp oil. He went out and bought a quart for under $2.00 and as far as I know still uses it. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What Holton uses for grease
In a message dated 8/21/2005 10:43:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Corn oil? Corn starch? Sorry, no. Should I tell now? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What Holton uses for grease
In a message dated 8/21/2005 2:00:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A good midwestern company might use... corn syrup? Close, but nope. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What Holton uses for grease
In a message dated 8/20/2005 11:32:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, let's try something not-so-weird... Vaseline? No, but the grease they put in the case is pretty much vaseline. It`s a combo slide and cork grease but really much better corks. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/20/2005 9:29:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: butter? I think that was under the same category as cheese. Nope ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/20/2005 9:14:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could they be like the paisan's at Kalison and use olive oil? Makes sense, but nope. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/20/2005 4:58:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'll take a guess at STP. Paul Mansur Nope. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/20/2005 1:46:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'll bite at the hint. Lanolin. Phil Jacobs They used lanolin before this grease. The lanolin worked too well and hid slide fit problems. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What Holton uses for grease
In a message dated 8/20/2005 12:12:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Considering their location I would guess cheese. Did I win? You`re a winner, Leonard, but not in this case! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/20/2005 7:14:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: STP? Boat trailer wheel bearing grease? Paul (who has used bothnot simultaneously) nope ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: slow music
In a message dated 8/19/2005 10:12:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When the oil evaporates, the grease will still be in there. That is so true. The big problem with lanolin used as tuning slides is that the lanolin can get washed into the valves. The valves work fine until the valve oil evaporates or gets blown through, and a film of lanolin is left on the surface of the rotor. Bonus question. What does Holton use for slide grease when the horns are assembled at the factory? Wes Hatch _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] advice,please
In a message dated 8/15/2005 1:19:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Very hot greetings from Florida! I have a question and need some input. I've played first chair for 8-9 years in a community orchestra. Last year we got a new conductor who instituted a schedule whereby we are to rehearse the day of a concert. Concert is at 3, rehearsal from 1-2pm,though it often runs to 2:30pm. Very rough on the "lip" even though I try to take it easy and save best efforts for actual concert. To me this is very unprofessional,as I think the time to learn what we need to know is at the four regular weekly rehearsals. Any thoughts? I play in an orchestra that does exactly that. My assistant plays 90% of the rehearsal and gets principal pay for the rehearsal. I play my solos and pretty much watch the music go by. Wes Hatch . _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Pros vs. Amateurs
In a message dated 8/9/2005 4:35:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a slightly different take and language for a similar observation: my experience has been that those who are half-way up the ladder and who are stuck there or are on the downward side of the ladder, Be kind to the people you meet on the way up, because you`ll meet the same people on the way down. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valve care part 19,345
In a message dated 8/7/2005 8:25:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How do you empty the water from around the change valve on a Geyer model and worse yet, HOW do you get oil INTO the change valve on a Geyer Model? You pull your F slide out and turn the horn counter clock wise. Or, rotate the horn several times clock wise and let the water come out the bell. I oil my 4th valve by putting oil down the tuning slides and turning so the oil goes into the 4th valve/ Wes _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] the "other" marching horn
In a message dated 8/4/2005 10:06:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone here used a Baritone as a Marching Horn? I marched with a baritone when I was in an army band,but not as a sub for horn. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Coins as lever extensions, now HR
In a message dated 6/22/2005 4:15:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That makes me wonder -- do tuba players ever use USA quarters as touch-pieces on the valve-levers of rotary-valve tubas? If so, I know why. But if not, why not? Most tuba players don`t have four quarters to their name! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
In a message dated 6/13/2005 2:39:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: it possible to remove a lever type spit valve from a leadpipe, and install an amado push button type instead? Or is the hole different...? The hole for the lever water key is usually much larger. If you put an Amado over it , leaking will occur. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: wrong list
In a message dated 5/21/2005 10:03:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I understood also, that if this excess solder is removed by aggressive chemicals, these must be neutralized extremely well. Holton used a deleading solution to remove the excess solder. After soaking in the solution, the horn was then bright dipped and then dipped in a solution of baking soda to neutralize the bright did. The horns were also put in a tank of solution and reverse current was used to remove all the chemicals and deposits inside the horn. Most of these processes were withheld from Yamaha when they toured Holton. Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Holton's German design team
In a message dated 4/24/2005 7:50:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, but I don't have any idea what they started from. I've always been amazed that they did not start with Phil's Geyers as models. Hi, Phil told us at Holton that he had too much respect for Geyer to copy his horn while Geyer was alive, and too much respect for Geyer not to copy his horn after Geyer`s death. Measurements and drawings were made of one of Phil`s Geyer horns. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] From The Oriental Schmidt House...YHR 863
In a message dated 4/21/2005 11:20:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill Barnewitz played on one as did my teacher in undergrad. My teacher sold his, but I heard from a friend at NW that Mr. Barnewitz still plays on it sometimes. My undergrad teacher sold his to a student because he was playing his triple pretty much all the time. I think Mr. Barnewitz did his FunctionLust cd on the 863. Sounds fantastic either way Bill now plays a Yamaha triple. He sold his 863 to Bill Cowart, 2nd horn with the MSO , who in turn sold his Geyer. Bill C. says that the 863 is the horn he had always been looking for. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Help! Need H.R. Jokes/Humor
In a message dated 3/23/2005 10:50:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Our Horn Ensemble's annual Spring Concert falls on April 1 (April Fool's Day) and I would appreciate any horn related jokes or humorous suggestions to add a little fun to the program. How about Mozart`s "Musical Joke"? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Custom VS. Non Custom Yams
In a message dated 3/21/2005 9:46:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In all due respect, while the non-custom Yamahas IMHO are good horns, they don't really compare to the custom models. And I would think most people would agree. Moreover, the consistency on their custom models are pretty tight. Having owned an 863, a 668V, now a 667V, and having played my undergrad studio's 881 descant extensively, I found that different horns of the same model were very very close to identical. (Yes there were two 863's in the same room! One now is played by a freshman at UW Madison who placed first in their fall orchestra auditions!) Does anyone else notice a $2,000 difference in the custom models? I recently did a conversion on a YHR 667. I installed a one-piece Sandner bell and my leadpipe. The horn plays and sounds great. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Acid cleaning for valves?
In a message dated 3/12/2005 1:09:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And I did tell her not to have it chem-cleaned for at least a year after this. I didn't get the valves very shiny, just clean. One thing to consider is that the casings are equally corroded, as is the inside of the horn. That`s why it is best to do a complete chem clean, either ultrasonic or a chem clean that does not involve acid. Muriatic acid, HCL or any other kind of aggresive acid is bad news. There is a shop in my area that uses an acid for cleaning. It may not show much removal of brass once or twice, but in the case of a school owned horn that has been cleaned every summer for five years or more, the valves are shot. I add to making my living by rebuilding valves that have come out of that shop.If you don`t have an ultrasonic cleaner, there are commercially available decalcifying solutions that do a very good job of chem cleaning without removing brass. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Acid cleaning for valves?
Another route, although not as fresh smelling as lemon juice, is to boil the rotors in vinegar.Other than that, CLR works very well. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] My first Acid cleaning of valves
In a message dated 3/11/2005 8:21:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, I decided to do some research and give it a go. I went out to the hardware store and bought some heavy duty Rubbermaid containers (one for the acid bath, the other for the neutralizer), and baking soda and Muriatic acid, and rubber gloves. I can say that the stuff works well, but you have to be extremely careful to do it in a well ventilated area, and just to make sure I didn't put the acid everywhere I just dipped my gloves in the neutralizer (baking soda and water) every now and then. Those vapors, even if you get the slightest whiff of them, can really be bad, and could probably kill you if you got enough of it. Also, the fizz from neutralization of the acid is quite cool to watch and listen to. I also re-fitted the valves afterwards and I can say that they work a lot better than how it used to be. Although, it's still a little sluggish compared to my Schmid, but is that normal on a Yamaha 668? I know some horns have valves that are almost too quick and light and some that are built a little slower and heavier. I also noticed a tiny bit (less than a quarter millimeter or so) of vertical play in the valves too before and after refitting, so I wonder if that is supposed to be there or not? Anyways, after I give her the horn back I'm going to definitely tell her to not have a chem-clean on the valves for at least a year. All in all though, I'd say it was a good job for a first try. I'm just glad I did my research before I attempted it - there's a lot of room to make plenty of mistakes with such a job. -William ___ William, I take the risk of offending you, but you might want to reconsider acid dipping other people`s valves if you need to ask this many questions on how to do it. Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday Walter! May you live for hundreds of more years, the horn world needs you! Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Another trype of scam
In a message dated 2/18/2005 5:11:26 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The market for other brasses like cornets, trumpets, flugelhorns, valve trombones, and baritones since a few years have been polluted with terribly bad Indian made instruments. Some of them under the almost correct brand name of Bessons of London. Besson just recently opened a factory in India. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hoyer rotor bumpers
In a message dated 1/5/2005 11:25:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've done an online search for O-rings and have found plenty of manufacturers of them, but I don't know if any of them would be suitable as raw material. Hi, The Yamaha bumpers are very good and fit the stop plates on a Hoyer. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball and fear
In a message dated 9/17/2004 5:24:11 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Initially I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be once you have gained proficiency in all major and minor scales and there respective arpeggios do you continue to diligently practice them? If you do why do you continue down this path. If you don't why not and what do you practice? I continue to play scales, primarily as part of my warm up.When playing any kind of music I invariably come across a scale or part of a scale. It`s nice to have the passage already under my fingers so that I can look ahead and concentrate on other aspects of playing the piece. Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] melody Tchaikovsky 5?
Does anyone remember the Dubochet brandy commercial? It used the can can music from Orpheus in His Underwear, I mean Underworld. " Do be sure it`s Dubochet, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah". Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Holton H105
In a message dated 9/9/2004 8:36:06 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is everyone's take on the Holton H105, formally the H104 Tuckwell model with the interchangable lead pipes? Upon talking to people in the assembly department at Holton, it`s still the same horn. It`s just not associated with Tuckwell anymore. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/9/2004 8:22:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ah. Well I don't have a massive ultrasonic cleaner. However that doesn't mean I do not wash the valve casings when I ultrasonically clean the valves. The cleaner is only big enough to clean the valves. Basically I just clean it with soap and water. It seems to work fine. Besides, why would my valve casings be corroded and dirty? My horn is pretty much spotless, I'm proud to say. There is zero corrosion anywhere. Makes good sense. I was just wondering about the horns of the people who will be in your class. It`s been my experience with horns that I repair, that if the rotors are corroded, the casings are at least that bad.I have band directors put on the repair tag," minimum pc, no chem clean". It`s a real mess!. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/9/2004 12:27:48 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who said I did that? I guess you implied it by saying you were taking the valves out of their horns and cleaning them ultrasonically. I didn`t read anything in your post about cleaning the horn at the same time. I guess I was confused. Wes Hatch BS MM DM Repair tech and horn maker 10 years at Holton as Foreman of assembly Tester at Holton 10 years ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
When you clean the rotors and then put them back into a dirty horn with corroded casings, isn`t that a little like changing a very dirty diaper but not washing off the little hinder? Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 8:50:45 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yup. Most of the cheaper valves that are not numbered are usually brass. Brass is soft, and a small mark can easily be made with the business end of a steel screwdriver. Ouch! The rotors in my Meinlschmidt valve section are brass, and so was a Hill horn I recently cleaned. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:27:05 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One other consideration with this is that lamp oil is not manufactured to be used as a lubricant. No matter how 'pure' the label says the stuff is, you're still buying oil that is cheap enough to be sold for a few dollars for 24 ounces of the stuff. Most lamp oils are 100% pure, filtered, deoderized kerosene.Holton rotary oil and others, like Cass oil are also 100% pure, filtered deoderized kerosene. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 7:27:05 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why oil the rest of the horn when you only need to oil the valves? If you ever remove an old branch or tuning slide bow and cut it with a saw, you can see just how green and corroded the inside can get. A light film of oil will protect the inside of the tubing from being eaten away by acids. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/2004 6:35:26 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For the full cleaning, I suggest to only work on 1 valve at a time, that way parts don't get swapped, and there are intact valves to show how they are supposed to be re-assembled... Most valves are numbered, as are the bearing plates. Yamaha marks each rotor and bp with a corresponding dot/dots, and the one Eastman horn I had the displeasure of working on had no markings of any sort. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Replating of valves
In a message dated 9/4/2004 1:51:52 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A valve should be lapped for only the distance it needs to travel. Could you clarify this, please? WH ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Jaw Pain
Hi, My wife has TMJ, and her dentist and doctors could not diagnosis it. After years of pain and discomfort she went to an orthodontist who took about thirty seconds to tell her she had TMJ. Apparently, sometimes, brace work will straighten the teeth by moving the jaw out of alignment. I also had a very promising student who had her wisdom teeth extracted and developed TMJ. You can take my medical advice with a grain of salt, but you might want to see a reputable Orthodontist. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Goodbye Leblanc
In a message dated 7/9/2004 10:41:12 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: maybe Selmer will begin assembling the holtons in Mexico or "Texas" again, Actually, Selmer had nothing to do with Conn moving to Texas. The C.G. Conn company did that one on their own.They moved to Abilene, on the advice of Ben Thompson, because there was a practically new facility that Reynolds left behind when they went bankrupt. The Conn company was then bought out by Dan Henken who ran the company into the ground by trying to make horns out of the horribly made parts that were being made by inexperienced workers. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Goodbye Leblanc
Hi, Just a note-- Leblanc is being purchased by Selmer. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] My Conn 8D Serial Number
In a message dated 5/12/2004 11:24:43 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the second valve casing, there is this number: 37 215524 Hi, The number 37 isn`t part of the serial number, it`s the lot number the valves were made in. That serial number indicates that it was made in Eastlake, at the King factory. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
In a message dated 4/24/2004 2:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's another "urban legend". For the full story on the "Happy Birthday" copyright go to www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.htm Thanks again for the great work on the horn. Wait, urban legend? You mean that someone bringing home a sewer rat from Mexico thinking it was a stray dog isn`t true either! You`re welcome Steve. It`s always a pleasure to work on one of your horns. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
In a message dated 4/24/2004 11:12:15 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As an addendum, I think you are off the mark. The trademark is irrelevant to how anyone makes their horns. This is an application for a trademark not a patent, isn't it? You might be missing Bob`s point. If someone patents the name Geyer, no maker will be able to use that name in association with their own instrument without paying a royalty.For instance, Holton, Yamaha, Conn, and custom makers will not be able to refer to their horns as a Geyer style horn without paying for that privilege. I`ve heard that John Lennon copy righted "Happy Birthday" and that is why chain restaurants sing those hokey birthday songs instead of Happy Birthday". Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Factory Defects and Horn Brands
In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:47:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK. the 176 used to be a brass Farkas with medium throat. The H176 was a model used in 1976 for the Bicentenial. It had a large throat red brass bell with the Liberty Bell engraved on the bell. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Yamahas + factory work
In a message dated 3/29/2004 3:27:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Another aspect of instrument factory work in the US is that workers are paid "piecework" meaning you get paid per each item you finish, thus the incentive is to work as fast as possible to make more money. That is true in a lot of companies. Holton, however, does not do that. They did at one time, prior to 1980, but stopped because quality was taking a big loss.The Tester before me was met in the parking lot and threatened by some employees who said he was rejecting too many horns and costing them money. Shortly after that Vito did away with piece work. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Superslick Key and Rotor Oil
In a message dated 3/6/2004 12:25:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone tried the superslick key and rotor oil? I did one time, and it worked for about 5 minutes, then it started getting *REALLY* sluggish Hi, That oil is to be used only on the bearings( spindles). ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Wierd instruments
In a message dated 1/17/2004 2:25:09 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's a Ludwig. It has a trumpet mouthpiece, but it is the length and bore of a trombone, with what appears to be a trombone bell. The configuration is generally like a trumpet, but it has one piston valve operated by one hand and a rotary valve operated by the oth Sounds like a bugle ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Holton quality, especially H200
In a message dated 9/25/2003 11:35:06 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm also interested in your opinion regarding Holton quality in general and especially for the H200. Is it safe to buy that horn as a special delivery without testing, for exampel over the internet? Hi, Holton makes less than 50 of these a year and there is always a wait.If you can get a new one now you should probably buy it. Otherwise get on the waiting list and contact Dave Surber at Leblanc and arrange to go to the warehouse when they have several. Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: Changing lightbulbs (was Re: [Hornlist] HORN JOKES)
Q. What dos a soprano say after sex? A. Wow! Who are all you guys?! ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Getting a job at Holton
In a message dated 7/26/2003 6:25:18 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > To suggest that Wes did not do well as a performer in the music business > is NOT at all what the intention of my post was. I apologize, Wes, I > didn't mean for it to sound that way, I know you're a fabulous horn > player; please don't take it that way! I hope I have not insulted you. > Hi, I am in no way insulted! For any who are interested, a few paragraphs on how I got a job at Holton. When I finished grad school I played for 4 1/2 months with the American Wind Symphony. While touring with the group I fell in love with the flutist with the WW quintet in which I played. After the tour was over I was jobless and homeless, so I moved closer to where my lady friend and eventual wife of 22 years was finishing grad school, University of Wisconsin. I applied for a job at Leblanc in Kenosha and was sent to work at the Martin Band Instrument Co. in Kenosha. The first year I worked there I worked in the buffing room buffing trombones. The second year I had to learn all the other operations because the Plant Manager was priming me to be a supervisor. It was at that time I started retesting the Holton horns ( the corporate warehouse was at the Martin plant). I rejected about 90% of all the horns that I "played" ( sorry Hans) and they were sent back to Holton for rework. Primary problems were poor slide fit, and noisy valves. In December of 1980 the Testing position at Holton was available.I applied for the job and got it--in part because I was a decent horn player, but primarily because of the background in manufacturing I had from working at Martin. The first six months were great. I sat in the Testing room and "played" horns for eight hours a day.I did take breaks and wandered around the factory observing the many operations that were involved in horn making. In June, an efficiency expert spent time in the factory and noted that I had too much free time on my hands, so management made me foreman of the Final Assembly, Lacquer and Shipping departments.I had to learn all the operations in Final Assembly so I could relate to the problems the employees were having with parts and quality.After a while I started doing much of the rework on the horns so that the assemblers could spend their time working on new horns, and thus improve the "on paper"efficiency of the department. During this time I was driving about a hundred miles round trip per day and getting pretty tired of many things. In 1988 when I was offered a repair position with a music store in Milwaukee I took it. This also afforded me with a more flexible schedule . I became first call with the Milwaukee symphony and was able to play horn and Wagner tuba for three years when Zubin Mehta was preparing for and conducting Wagner`s Ring Cycle with Chicago Lyric Opera. Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] error
In a message dated 7/22/2003 9:33:16 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Were the Merkers in production when you were testing Holtons? > No, Holton was just getting the Tuckwell into production . I left that same year. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] error
I think it says less for the quality and more for the qualities of a Holton horn.I have played about 4000 Holton horns. Actually, that should have read 40,000. I forgot to multiply by 10 years. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Holton
In a message dated 7/21/2003 6:39:00 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Are the reasons that you cited in your post, the reasons that many > orchestra > players abandoned Holton ? I remember when Holton horns were just about > the hottest thing going. Certainly LeBlanc has made a tremendous marketing > effort over the years and also introduced many new models, get top flight > artists to endorse them and yet while the horns sell well, they don't seem > to be highly regarded in the upper levels of the horn world. > > In your estimation, where has LeBlanc gone wrong in sustaining an interest > and acceptance at the professional level ? They seem to have done a lot of > R&D and have solicited input. > > BTW I really think that the new Merker-matic horns both in both wraps are > very nice horns. Thank you for any insights. > > Mark L. > > I do not wish to speak for others, but those are the reasons why I do not prefer to play a Holton in orchestra. The original Farkas horn had a bell made with 24 guage brass. The bell was light weight and very responsive and had a beautiful sound. I too have heard the story that Reiner told Phil to always play his Holton. The H178 today is made with 23 guage brass and is thicker and less responsive, especially from the throat to the first branch. I recently bought a 1970 H178 on Ebay for $400.00. I rebuilt the horn and put a one-piece German bell on the horn. I really like the way this horn plays and sounds. As different horn players became prominent the horn they played became more prominent as well. Leblanc did not know in 1982 that Holton horns were no longer the horn of choice in the CSO, nor had they been for a number of years.I think that a lack of aggressive marketing in the 80s because they thought they had the professional world wrapped up, and the fact that quality became so poor in the 70s because of the labor strike at Holton was the cause for Holton horns falling out of favor. Wes Hatch Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] WHO PLAYED WHAT
In a message dated 7/21/2003 12:26:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The reality is, very few, if any, professionals play Holtons. I think this > speaks volumes about their quality. > I think it says less for the quality and more for the qualities of a Holton horn.I have played about 4000 Holton horns and in the testing studio I enjoyed playing them. But, when I would take a Holton to orchestra rehearsal, I was disappointed in many of the playing qualities. I prefer playing an 8D in orchestra over a Holton ( although my personal preference is a Geyer ). I like my sound on a Holton, but not the way the horn projects at higher volumes. I also have been unhappy with SFZ attacks at the top of the staff on the Holtons, they are a little too spongy for my preferences. I know there have been pro sections in the past that have played Holtons- Chicago Symphony, Atlanta Symphony, Detroit Symphony and Baltimore .And of course, Barry Tuckwell played an H181( the early ones were yellow brass) for many years. The H104 was an attempt at financial security for Barry, but it did not work out such as it has for Ethel Merker. Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] WHO PLAYED WHAT
In a message dated 7/21/2003 11:53:41 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Perhaps your > point would have more weight if you can name some of the "world class pro's" > that play on a Holton. > Barry Tuckwell? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Life in grad school
In a message dated 6/18/2003 9:03:55 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > subtlties of my horn playing improved. > > Ha, ha, ha. But it doesn`t say subtitles! Although, some some subtitles would be helpful. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: croaks
In a message dated 6/17/2003 9:54:24 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Holtons for many years had a particular defect that I think has finally > been recently corrected. The holes for the screws that hold the cork > holders > on were drilled in the wrong position. > The holes were drilled 10 degrees off. An engineering change was made to correct the problem but on the print the change was made 10 degrees in the wrong direction. The error was found in Final Assembly, but by that time there were already about 400 sets of valve casings drilled in the wrong position, and had been mounted. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Valve questions
In a message dated 6/10/2003 10:18:23 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Conn, in their > infinite wisdom changed the valve design sometime in the 90s so that the > inside bottom of the valve casing is flat (only horn in the world like that) > > It seems that King valves were like that. When Conn moved to Eastlake , King and Conn were in the same building, King on one side, and Conn on the other.However, King pretty much took over the design of the Conn horns, and changed the valve design to that of King.Much of the Conn brass line now looks like King. As far as the valves, I always thought that King valves were fairly durable. I think Chuck Ward was the the design guy for King.He is somewhat of an authority on valves, did he ever try to change the King design? I was complaining to the King rep once that Conn was the only manufacturer of horn valves that did not have tapered bearings. I said, " You know, everyone else uses tapered bearings". He said, " Well, we don`t! " Interestingly, though, Conn did change soon after.I guess there were enough complaints. With enough complaints, maybe they will redesign the bottom of the casing to conform with the better designs? Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conn and Selmer merging
Nothing is changing as far as I have been told. Selmer bought UMI but all the operations are staying in place. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hatch horn at Bloomington
Hi all, I will not be able to make it to Bloomington to show a horn this year. David Wick, principal horn with the Virginia Symphony and the latest buyer of one of my horns will be there, and has graciously agreed to let anyone who is interested play his horn. Thank you, Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] audition
Hi, If I`m not mistaken there are basically two kinds of double horns. One horn is based on the Bb horn and has an F tuning slide so the player can match the F to the Bb. The other horn is based on an F horn and has a Bb tuning slide so the player can match the Bb to the F. That is what Phil Farkas told me when I asked him why the H179 had a Bb tuning slide and the 8D did not. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] New bell problems
In a message dated 3/9/2003 8:14:00 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >Where the tail is attached to the instrument, the joint is not as clean as > >I > >would have expected - it's as though there is a slight kink in the circle. > Hi, It sometimes happens when soldering the joint between the bell tail and the first branch that excessive solder accumulates forming a glob inside the connecting ferrule. This can cause stuffiness and some partials to play out of tune. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mouthpiece rhymes with orange.
In a message dated 3/9/2003 1:15:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Anyone who knows anything about thermodynamics > knows that a thick-walled mp will be more effective > at conducting heat away from your embouchere. I suppose with a thick walled mouthpiece some enterprising inventor could find a way to install cooling coils inside the mouthpiece and run freon through it. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Yamaha 861 horns
In a message dated 2/28/2003 9:40:50 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Funny you mention the A=442. I played on a Holton for the longest time > (A=440) and had trouble playing in situations where I had to tune that > high. > > Holton horns are tuned to A=446 with no hand in the bell, and the tuning slides pushed in all the way. Wes ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Should I get my horn stripped?
In a message dated 1/26/2003 9:35:23 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I've heard that what is underneath laquer is not always what one would > expects; ugly seams and different colours of metals. > > Hi, If you have clear lacquer you can already see what is under the lacquer, as far as seams and color of metal. I stripped the lacquer off a new brass horn once and the owner wanted to know why her horn didn`t look like her teacher`s unlacquered horn, because it was still all nice and shiny without the lacquer. Lacquer does not produce the finish of the horn. The metal is buffed to a high luster and then sprayed with clear lacquer to preserve that luster. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Re: red rot
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hi, One of the causes of red rot, or dezincifacation, is caused by acids that are not properly neutralized during the manufacturing process. Soldering acids and an acid known as Brite Dip , which is used to clean and prep parts before soldering, must be thoroughly rinsed and neutralized. After a horn has been completed in the mounting department the Holton company soaks every component in a baking soda solution, and then puts the horn in a tank where a reverse current is run through the horn to remove all acids and impurities that adhere inside and out. In the 70s Leblanc was buying brass instruments from Yamaha to fill orders for the student lines that were made in the Martin plant. Yamaha had copied many of the processes that Holton used, but apparently missed the above operations.The T602R and C602R instruments had leadpipes that were rife with red rot. Hundreds of trumpets and cornets were returned to the Martin plant for leadpipe replacement. Yamaha started using red brass leadpipes to allay the problem. Many brass instrument makers still use yellow brass for their leadpipes, and if the proper procedures are followed there is no problem with red rot. Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Factory Installed Water Keys
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 12/3/2002 5:51:27 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I have a piston valve Conn 2D single F horn that has the water key is on > the tuning slide, on the same side of the horn as the mouthpiece! > > What are some of your experiences? > Just that , sometimes the hole has not been drilled. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] bad high bflat (double post)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/29/2002 5:16:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It sounds as if you might need to have your first valve (and maybe others) > rebuilt as it is leaking I would hope that a one year old $6000 horn would not need a valve rebuild yet!! ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] When I was Tester at Holton every horn was tested on a manometer to measure blow-by throught the valves. The higher the reading the less air blowing past the valves (less tight?) . There was a bottom line that was acceptable. I tested over 40,000 horns while I was there,and I can say with a degree of certainity that the higher the air test the tighter the horn played.The lower readings, which were still within the accepted tolerences, the horn did play a little more flexibly, a little smoother and a little less resistant. Heaven forbid!! I even noticed a difference in the way an H179 played and the way an H279( screw bell) played! Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:08:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > As I said, factory quality. No wonder about the rotor > problems .. cylindrical too .. > This is true, but Holton valves and spindles are tapered. ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/24/2002 2:56:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I know how much I pay for the valve section without the slides True, I pay over $1000 for a Meinlschmidt valve section. But if one checks the price list in the Holton parts catalogue, the price for one rotor assemble and casing is $100 dealer cost or $50 to make. A Farkas bell, dealer cost is about $250, or $125 to make.So on down the line. Wes (giving out more retail info than I should be) Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/24/2002 2:56:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But tell me, how Holton can produce a double horn for $ 1.000.- ? The operation sheets at Holton allow for a Farkas horn to be built in 24 man hours from the first screw made to the final testing. When they buy raw materials by the hundreds of pounds they do get a bit of a cost break. Many of the machines at Holton are quite old, and much of the manufacture is done by hand. Holton produces about 4000 french horns per year, a lot of valves.Making 600 sets with out a tool change may have been an exageration, but it is pretty close. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/24/2002 9:49:18 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > And, who is making most of the money ? The producer or the dealer ? The same > as in the CD market. > Sorry for the incomplete quote, but my answer only relates to the above. Holton produces a horn for $1000, Leblanc sells the horn to a dealer for $2000 with a suggested retail of $4000. The dealer then has to discount the horn up to 40% to make a sale. Most dealers would go out of business if they only sold horns. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/24/2002 2:23:35 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Do you still think, Japanese factories of quality products produce junk > parts ? Their failure factor is the same as everywhere in the > industrialized world, if not less. Do not make the mistake, thinking about > other nations products as if they had not improved things during the last > 30 or 40 years. > I know from first hand experience that all companies produce " junk parts". Whether or not they make it onto a horn is another matter. Having worked at Holton for ten years I know what kind of tools and machines they have and what condition they are in, and what kind of parts they produce. Yamaha has state of the art tools and machines and a replacement schedule that replaces tools before they actually wear out, not after a run of 600 valve sets were produced that should have been rejected. I also know that Yamaha Japan has a very stringent inspection process and that every part that is shipped to Grand Rapids is good quality. What are done with the parts during assembly in Michigan may be another matter, such as the final assembly and pad fitting of their woodwind instruments. Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha's (Osmun)
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/23/2002 4:00:33 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Tax advantage &cheaper labour costs ! > Also, control of the quality and consistancy of the parts going to make the instruments in Grand Rapids. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Berlin Yamaha?
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:41:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I read in an Ebay ad that for a period of time the Berlin Philharmonic was > using Yamaha horns (667s?). I don't consider Ebays ads to be that reliable > : ) Did they use them? How did this come to pass? Seems for a country > with so many great horn companies that this would be a major slap in the > face of national pride. > I once saw a Yamaha poster showing the entire Berlin horn section with their Yamaha horns. I think that was about 1990. Wes ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Eastmen Horns
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:13:33 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You didn´t offend me with incomplete quotation, but it is not correct to > quote somebody out of the content. The content must remain even just > "rudimentary", o.k. ? > o.k. ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Eastmen Horns
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/10/2002 1:30:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > If you quote me, you should quote me in full. These horns ae not that bad, > but if you get one, where one "ear" (the little bowed pieces of tube coming > out of the valve casings) is not soldered properly, the valve will be > ruined in few weeks. > > Well, we visited the factory severaltimes. The last visit: > > We told the two technicians on the lathe, that they should not take the > valve piece off the machine they are working on, until it is finished, so > it will be "centered". They seemed to understand. But next day, when we > came in "by surprise", they performed the drilling of the valve the same > old way as before. The rough piece on the lathe, drilling half way, off the > lathe, turning around the piece, fixing on the lathe again, continue to > drill. So the piece cannot be centered 100%. But it is more comfortable to > work. > > This happen also, when they drill the valve casings. They do not know, > quality control or material control. I told them to form small groups, > where (in turn) one of the workers acts as supervisor to eliminate > defective parts. No. They feared unfair treatment. But how ? If the > supervisor function turns within the group. > > The assemble line (I call it so): they have boxes with the parts. As these > workers (women mostly) do the same particular things for years, they act > like robots, not even looking at the parts they take out of the boxes. > > I told them, they should inspect every single part BEFORE mounting on the > horn. Yes, yes, was the answer. But next day again, they sat, chatted while > working, but did not look on the pieces they were working with. > > Paul said, he did reorganize things, so the quality is improved now. The > sound quality is improved definitely, but the valve section is assembled > not as it should be. > > The improvement could be done without an increase of costs, but you have to > understand, that you cannot fire ineffective workers in a state owned > company in China. That is the big, big problem. > > They have the potential for a great output of good instruments. So it is > not understandable, why they do not use it. They inundate markets in > Southamerica, Africa &other countries in Asia. > > The price of the horns is very low &this makes them competitive. > > On our markets, we have to pay a certain price for a certain quality. Horns > cannot be produced cheaper in the Western hemisphere. You have to remember, > that except drilling joints, valve rotors and few other parts, nothing can > be produced by "automats". And one has to know how much these automats > cost. They cost up to six figures &more. > > How many pieces can they produce a month ? So the production is > specialised: one is a specialist for bells, the other a specialist for > valve slides, a third makes the joints, a fourth builds valves, a fifth is > a specialist for final polishing &lacquering .. > > The masters who did everything by themselves are history or their horns > cost an adequate high price (investment in machines, working time if > everything is hand made .). > > And the market is very difficult at the moment ! Not only the market for > used horns. > > ... > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >-- > >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > >In a message dated 11/9/2002 12:35:36 AM Central Standard Time, > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > >>Dear friends, about the Eastman Horns, you seem all to know things from > >>hear-say only, just blah-blah. I have been at the place where they are > >>made. It is a very big factory ib Tianjin in China. The horns are made as > >>everywhere in the world, no difference. They use the same machines. The > >>workers are skilled. > >> > > > >I had the misfortune of having taken one of these horns apart. The horn > that > >I worked on was one of two of the worst horns I have ever worked on, a > Lark > >compensating horn being the worst. > > > >Wes Hatch > >___ > > It was not meant as a quotation per se, just a reference so that people would know what I was writing about. I`m sorry if you were offended. Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Eastmen Horns
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/9/2002 12:35:36 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Dear friends, about the Eastman Horns, you seem all to know things from > hear-say only, just blah-blah. I have been at the place where they are > made. It is a very big factory ib Tianjin in China. The horns are made as > everywhere in the world, no difference. They use the same machines. The > workers are skilled. > I had the misfortune of having taken one of these horns apart. The horn that I worked on was one of two of the worst horns I have ever worked on, a Lark compensating horn being the worst. Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
