RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
But the different challenges at different times & definitely at the right time when the student is mature enough (or grown enough) for the particular task or challenge !!! == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Jewell Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:42 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn? Allow me to add the personal experience of being a sophomore in college and having to play one of the melodies [there was really more than one, but I played them one at a time] out of the Kauffman collection for about 6 lessons in a row. For those who don't know them, the Kauffman is a collection of 12 famous classical melodies arranged in a near beginner level. These were the most musically challenging pieces I had in my lessons, but I learned more from them than in many a more "difficult" etude. I strongly believe that a student who conquers real and true challenges develops a far stronger "positive self esteem" than the student who is puffed up by flattery, which translates into much more progress and real musical accomplishment than not. Paxmaha "Hans.Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Very well said, Francis. Allow me to add something about the wrongdoings of the teachers. They give them Mozart D-major at the end of the first year & start with the Strauss one in the late 2nd or early third year to get the kids stuck for weeks, months or years with these pieces, instead of giving the e.g. Sawart-Wottawa etudes for beginners, accompanied with piano (very simple). These are two to four liner etudes really for beginners. So they can experience some easymusic. And these short songs of all kind, again accompanied by (easy) piano. These things together with other goddies for solo horn (Eichborn e.g.) and together with progressive etudes will develop the skill of these youngsters even fast on the F-Horn & keep them interested. - Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Allow me to add the personal experience of being a sophomore in college and having to play one of the melodies [there was really more than one, but I played them one at a time] out of the Kauffman collection for about 6 lessons in a row. For those who don't know them, the Kauffman is a collection of 12 famous classical melodies arranged in a near beginner level. These were the most musically challenging pieces I had in my lessons, but I learned more from them than in many a more "difficult" etude. I strongly believe that a student who conquers real and true challenges develops a far stronger "positive self esteem" than the student who is puffed up by flattery, which translates into much more progress and real musical accomplishment than not. Paxmaha "Hans.Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Very well said, Francis. Allow me to add something about the wrongdoings of the teachers. They give them Mozart D-major at the end of the first year & start with the Strauss one in the late 2nd or early third year to get the kids stuck for weeks, months or years with these pieces, instead of giving the e.g. Sawart-Wottawa etudes for beginners, accompanied with piano (very simple). These are two to four liner etudes really for beginners. So they can experience some easymusic. And these short songs of all kind, again accompanied by (easy) piano. These things together with other goddies for solo horn (Eichborn e.g.) and together with progressive etudes will develop the skill of these youngsters even fast on the F-Horn & keep them interested. - Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Very well said, Francis. Allow me to add something about the wrongdoings of the teachers. They give them Mozart D-major at the end of the first year & start with the Strauss one in the late 2nd or early third year to get the kids stuck for weeks, months or years with these pieces, instead of giving the e.g. Sawart-Wottawa etudes for beginners, accompanied with piano (very simple). These are two to four liner etudes really for beginners. So they can experience some easy music. And these short songs of all kind, again accompanied by (easy) piano. These things together with other goddies for solo horn (Eichborn e.g.) and together with progressive etudes will develop the skill of these youngsters even fast on the F-Horn & keep them interested. How easy for them if they have acquired enough skill to play a decent Strauss no.1 on the single F, say in the fourth or fifth year, but taking up the Bb-horn then, - and thus progressing very rapidely after that transition. You can preach this to these teachers, but because of their own incapabilities they would never believe you, never. And they do not understand your arguments or do they NOT WANT to understand them ? Nobody has a look to the e.g. teaching program from Vienna, where successful players as Berger, Hoegner & myself studied. It seems to be an insane task to try to convince these ignorants. Take care, nice to hear from you Hans == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Francis Pressland Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 12:58 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn? > Where they should have started to begin with. The bottom line is kids > stick with activities they are successful with ... they will be more > successful starting on the double ... Oh dear! this is a rather pathetic excuse. Kids love eating junk food, sitting in front of their xboxes and given a choice of book to help reading will always choose the cartoon books over a novel. Its a kind of human "Foie gras" production in many households nowadays. "Supersize me" does not apply to the horn. Kids WILL stick to learning the horn if they have good teachers who enthuse them to conquer the difficulties. Learning to play on an F horn is inheritently no more difficult than a Bb. and there are lots of advantages such as sound quality, accuracy and emrochure building. How many of these "kids" grow up knowing what to do with the redundant F side of their double horns. Francis ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
> Where they should have started to begin with. The bottom line is kids stick > with activities they are successful with ... they will be more successful > starting on the double ... Oh dear! this is a rather pathetic excuse. Kids love eating junk food, sitting in front of their xboxes and given a choice of book to help reading will always choose the cartoon books over a novel. Its a kind of human "Foie gras" production in many households nowadays. "Supersize me" does not apply to the horn. Kids WILL stick to learning the horn if they have good teachers who enthuse them to conquer the difficulties. Learning to play on an F horn is inheritently no more difficult than a Bb. and there are lots of advantages such as sound quality, accuracy and emrochure building. How many of these "kids" grow up knowing what to do with the redundant F side of their double horns. Francis ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
My 9 year old daughter is just starting to play. She can hold a single F more correctly than she can a double. She doesn't know the difference in how an F horn or Bb horn would play, and is not bemoaning the fact that the F horn is harder than a Bb horn would be. She does know that it will take a certain amount of work to make progress on anything that is difficult at first. She knows that you have to be able to get a sound out of the mouthpiece alone (which is neither in Bb nor F) in order to get one out of the horn. She doesn't have a fingering chart to look at, and doesn't need one. I tell her how to play the notes she needs and she remembers. She sounds like you would expect a third grader to sound, and doesn't mind a bit. John Baumgart ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
If all do look for easy success, a story might help: A jewish father took his boy to the conservatory´s director & asks: "What da ya cost a good fiddle & how long has my boy to study ?" "Well", the responsive director began to talk, "a good violine is not below 25.000 USD & the young man has to study at least for 7 to 10 years to become an orchestra violin player, earning a beginner , say, say, 1.500.-". "Not too bad, but the investment is much over what I expected to pay. Anything else cheaper ?". "Well, there is the horn. A reasonable would be for less than 3 grand, - and, ahem, ahem, your son would make it into a regional orchestra after 3 or 4 years to earn enough to support his further studies by himself." "Well", the bargaining father replied once more, " still the 3 grand are a bit too much for our family plus the support for the son for at least three year, no, no ! Anything cheaper & easier, with reasonable income ?" - "Look", said the director, "there is a contrabasso out in the corner, not so bad, but still good for the schrumm-schrumm ! But the income is not very exciting, just 45 bucks for a service. But you would not pay much for the lessons, - and two or three lessons might be enough ! And if you dont like the instrument, use the wood for heating & build yourself another !" (amused). "Well, I really need something exciting for my obviously gifted son & together with a quite interesting income !" - "Yeah, I got an idea", the director said surprisingly, "buy your son a stick otherwise also named baton, - or if you cannot affort it, make one stick by yourself from a cut off from a bush or tree. Then he should ask some other students to form a chamber orchestra, so they will play for him. Too many are enthusiastic about playing without any payment. So he will be the only one earning money from the orchestras activities. The audience is intonationwise & tastewise deaf anyway. And the success is secure ! Good bye ! " = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 5:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn? Sorry I meant to send those comments privately. Now that I started down this path, I do believe that teaching in the US and certainly Europe is different. We have talked about that on the list. I also believe we have come to a time in this country (US) when we (as educators) are expected to make kids successful quickly. That being said, in my experience students that are progressing well stick with the program. If you can't catch the ball, throw the ball or hit the ball at some point you will not play baseball. The same with horn if you can't hit the notes and play melodies you will not continue to study. Now, there are issues starting kids on doubles one of which is the ability of a 9 year old to hold a horn even when we are creative about how they hold the instrument. The small wrap doubles do help, although not great instruments they do make holding the instrument easier. Again Alan sorry that went to the entire list. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Hi Debbie, I believe Hans's point is based on the distinction between teaching someone to play and teaching them to play well. The kind of sound that we expect from horns is based on what comes out of a single F horn wielded by a good player, since that is what was about before double horns were made available. Double horns were invented to make the higher range more secure and less of an effort. But a player playing on the Bb side still needs to produce an "F-horn" tone, and is essentially persuading the Bb side to produce a sound which is not entirely natural to it. There are various reasons to start a student on a single F. 1. It is lighter than a double and easier for a young student to hold up 2. It is cheaper and therefore more suitable for school budgets when dealing with horns that are passed from one beginner to another fairly rapidly 3. A student is likely to make a better approximation to the ideal sound if he or she is using the kind of instrument on which that sound comes more naturally. Once the student has a good idea of the right kind of sound, and has sufficient control not to crack so many notes even through harmonics are more closely spaced on the F side, then the Bb side can be introduced. The student will be more likely to try to keep the F-side tone when using the Bb side, and should already have sufficient control to reliably hit harmonics that are only a tone apart, which on the Bb side will take you to pretty much the top of the horn range. This provides the foundation for mastery of the instrument as a whole, once the Bb-side fingerings are learned as well as the F-side. As I understand it, these are the principles on which the British & European schools of teaching base the idea of starting students on the single F horn. I started on an old Chinese single F, moved after a year or two to a compensating double (a Paxman Studenti) which saw me through high school. Even when I had the Studenti, it was a while before my teacher insisted that I kept doing studies etc on the F side as well as the Bb. Then eventually while working for a year between school & university I saved enough to buy an Alex 103, which I have used ever since. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Think of bicycle riding. Most of us learnt on a simple 1-speed 2-wheeler before advancing to a 10-speed racer or 18-speed mountain bike. (Shucks, some of us even used training wheels -- but that's another story.) Never hurts to start simple, then move on to something more advanced later on -- even in the world of learning to play horn. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/272 - Release Date: 3/1/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
In a message dated 3/2/06 10:57:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Have you never heard about the benefit of "training with > handicap" ? That´s it. If you make all that easy from > the beginning (going up to Mt.Everest summit carried on > porters back), greater tasks without an easing tool, > apparatus, horn or whatever will become a nightmare - & thus > abandoned. > > Hans, If I could teach a 9 year old a short cut to go even half way up to the summit of Everest would you do that? If you then had 10 additional years to teach them music, because they were hooked would you take the short cut? I would take those short cuts. In those 10 years of work, we would not only learn music, but time management, making things perfect, and self analysis of our playing to become our own best teacher. And how wonderful to make it to the top of Everest at 19 and have a life time of enjoyment of music and the horn in front of us. Keep in mind that the short cut is starting on the instrument that most of the world eventually plays. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Sorry I meant to send those comments privately. Now that I started down this path, I do believe that teaching in the US and certainly Europe is different. We have talked about that on the list. I also believe we have come to a time in this country (US) when we (as educators) are expected to make kids successful quickly. That being said, in my experience students that are progressing well stick with the program. If you can't catch the ball, throw the ball or hit the ball at some point you will not play baseball. The same with horn if you can't hit the notes and play melodies you will not continue to study. Now, there are issues starting kids on doubles one of which is the ability of a 9 year old to hold a horn even when we are creative about how they hold the instrument. The small wrap doubles do help, although not great instruments they do make holding the instrument easier. Again Alan sorry that went to the entire list. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Have you never heard about the benefit of "training with handicap" ? That´s it. If you make all that easy from the beginning (going up to Mt.Everest summit carried on porters back), greater tasks without an easing tool, apparatus, horn or whatever will become a nightmare - & thus abandoned. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn? In a message dated 3/2/06 9:33:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Starting on an F single horn is important not only to keep matters > simple for the beginning player, > Simple compare to what. I just don't buy the mystique that a double horn is harder to understand than a single. Sorry the fingerings at this age are the fingerings they put down what you tell them. > but also so the student will form the correct concept of how the horn > is supposed to sound, > Again, that should come from the teacher no kid picks up the horn sounds great the sound concept is what your teacher plays for you. > > > how it is supposed to respond > up & down the scale, > Okay so it responds differently when we switch them to a double? > the basics of how it works, > All brass instruments work the same you buzz the note and you get a sound the higher the buzz the higher the note. > The fundamental > orientation & response of the horn's characteristic range & voice, etc. > Well, tough for little guys to get the range happening maybe the voice but I think that comes from what they hear others do not what they produce. > > After an appropriate degree of progress, the horn student will be > ready to "graduate" from a single horn in F to a double horn in F & B-flat. > Where they should have started to begin with. The bottom line is kids stick with activities they are successful with ... they will be more successful starting on the double ... The above is snarky so I sent it off list. Sorry for the attitude but I just don't buy the single horn analogs. Debbie > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
In a message dated 3/2/06 9:33:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Starting on an F single horn is important not only to keep matters simple > for the beginning player, > Simple compare to what. I just don't buy the mystique that a double horn is harder to understand than a single. Sorry the fingerings at this age are the fingerings they put down what you tell them. > but also so the student will form the correct > concept of how the horn is supposed to sound, > Again, that should come from the teacher no kid picks up the horn sounds great the sound concept is what your teacher plays for you. > > > how it is supposed to respond > up & down the scale, > Okay so it responds differently when we switch them to a double? > the basics of how it works, > All brass instruments work the same you buzz the note and you get a sound the higher the buzz the higher the note. > The fundamental > orientation & response of the horn's characteristic range & voice, etc. > Well, tough for little guys to get the range happening maybe the voice but I think that comes from what they hear others do not what they produce. > > After an appropriate degree of progress, the horn student will be ready to > "graduate" from a single horn in F to a double horn in F & B-flat. > Where they should have started to begin with. The bottom line is kids stick with activities they are successful with ... they will be more successful starting on the double ... The above is snarky so I sent it off list. Sorry for the attitude but I just don't buy the single horn analogs. Debbie > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
Dear Friends -- Any student learning to play horn as a beginner should always get started on a single horn in F, whether switching to horn from some other instrument or starting out on horn as the student's very first brass instrument. Starting on an F single horn is important not only to keep matters simple for the beginning player, but also so the student will form the correct concept of how the horn is supposed to sound, how it is supposed to respond up & down the scale, the basics of how it works, the fundamental orientation & response of the horn's characteristic range & voice, etc. After an appropriate degree of progress, the horn student will be ready to "graduate" from a single horn in F to a double horn in F & B-flat. That's how my old teacher explained it, anyhow. I believed it back then (1955) & I still believe it today. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ At 10:01 PM 3/1/2006, you wrote: On 3 2, 2006, at 3:01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more thing - why do Horn students start off on an F horn? I cannot see why teachers would want to make life so difficult for them. Do professionals use F horns? Not within 10 000 miles of here - far too challenging! I tried it once, and do not recommend it! David Watson Victoria, B.C. Canada. I'd put it more simply: starting on the F-horn makes you develop an accurate effective embouchure while you are young and still able to acquire habits easily. (Maybe it's too late to apply the same thinking to adults.) The Bb side may get you playing high notes sooner, but my (admittedly limited) experience shows that kids driven to play band competition pieces within months of picking up the instrument develop all kinds of trick embouchures to cope, and later find problems with other normal kinds of playing; low notes, pianissimo, wide intervals, nice tone, etc. (Must admit though, I started on a "tenor horn" (mellophone to you?) simply because I was too weedy to hold the real thing! No I didn't. I started on a very long garden hose, 10~15 yards. Didn't need any valves!) :-) Simon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/272 - Release Date: 3/1/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] start off on an F horn?
On 3 2, 2006, at 3:01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more thing - why do Horn students start off on an F horn? I cannot see why teachers would want to make life so difficult for them. Do professionals use F horns? Not within 10 000 miles of here - far too challenging! I tried it once, and do not recommend it! David Watson Victoria, B.C. Canada. I'd put it more simply: starting on the F-horn makes you develop an accurate effective embouchure while you are young and still able to acquire habits easily. (Maybe it's too late to apply the same thinking to adults.) The Bb side may get you playing high notes sooner, but my (admittedly limited) experience shows that kids driven to play band competition pieces within months of picking up the instrument develop all kinds of trick embouchures to cope, and later find problems with other normal kinds of playing; low notes, pianissimo, wide intervals, nice tone, etc. (Must admit though, I started on a "tenor horn" (mellophone to you?) simply because I was too weedy to hold the real thing! No I didn't. I started on a very long garden hose, 10~15 yards. Didn't need any valves!) :-) Simon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
