RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
I almost wrote something similar myself but cut it for brevity. :-) I was also going to mention that we cope with different staircases (keys/intervals) without difficulty, unless they are physically stressful (Bb alto), though very small (i.e. low) steps can be tricky (F# is harder than G). Irregular steps are more difficult, but we cope without significant mental exercise. With practice, transposition can be the same. Simon On Jan 25, 2007, at 11:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:20:25 +0100 from: hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Actually you have to calculate how far to lift each foot for every step you take in a staircase under certain circumstance. One example: the old Khmer temple staircases, thousend more steps long ways up in the Chinese holy mountains, staircases in old buildings, where steps can be less or more, where steps can be wider in length. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Simon, you are right, but just partly. First comes the ability of spontaneously hearing music while you read it. Singing the part is a good tool for that, but it should work without any sound outside your brain. Second, recognition of chords, intervals must be exercised long before training on the instrument will begin. Solution: The Orff system starting in Kindergarten. Transposition will not be any problem then, but if one does not understand the system, if one is not able to lock in with the ensemble or/and the music played actually, hopeless situation, very hopeless. Transposing note by note - when will one finish with The Ride of Valkyries e.g. ... Right teaching is more worth than any over over exercising. Once things are understood, they will work forever. Roland Berger myself we made all transpositions within eight weeks when studying with Freiberg. There are very good studies by Vouillermoz by Dr.Ernst Pail, where the transpoisition changes every measure. That is a real task. If you master that, you master all. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Varnam Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:05 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing I almost wrote something similar myself but cut it for brevity. :-) I was also going to mention that we cope with different staircases (keys/intervals) without difficulty, unless they are physically stressful (Bb alto), though very small (i.e. low) steps can be tricky (F# is harder than G). Irregular steps are more difficult, but we cope without significant mental exercise. With practice, transposition can be the same. Simon On Jan 25, 2007, at 11:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:20:25 +0100 from: hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Actually you have to calculate how far to lift each foot for every step you take in a staircase under certain circumstance. One example: the old Khmer temple staircases, thousend more steps long ways up in the Chinese holy mountains, staircases in old buildings, where steps can be less or more, where steps can be wider in length. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
I have enjoyed reading all the wise advice on transposition, and I certainly agree that understanding the system is of prime importance. What do you recommend for atonal music that does not follow a key-based system? Is it best to notate these horn parts as though they were in F (written a fifth higher than sounding)? Or would players, in this case, prefer an untransposed part showing the actual concert pitches? I have always written such parts in F, but I am prepared to change. What is the common wisdom here? By the way, the allegro movement of my horn and orchestra piece (concert on Feb. 4) is in D major, and I originally notated the solo part for horn in D. Later, on the advice of a professional horn player, I rewrote the part for horn in F. David Lamb in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
write them for horn in F please Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
There is certainly much to value from the Old World style of learning music. I agree that students should study music well before picking up an instrument. Even piano, considered one of the greatest training instruments is often taught without any connection with the ear to the music, but rather as one learns to type. You see a note, you press a button. William Vacchiano used to tell me that if his trumpet students had solid command of the scales, and a sense of each individual scale degree, then they could employ what he referred to as number transposition, in other words, recognizing the written scale degree and relating it to the same scale degree in the required key. This method works very well for those students who fully mastered their scales, particularly with classical and early romantic music. Many of my colleagues in Italy were highly skilled in clef transposition, thinking everything in concert pitch and inserting the appropriate clef and key signature. While this method could put the player in the wrong octave if taken literally, it was nevertheless a very successful approach. My students in Rome (having had wonderful musical training prior to entering my studio) would use solfeggio in concert pitch on regular F horn parts, employing the mezzo-soprano clef and adding the inherent extra flat into the key signature (3 flats becomes 4, two sharps becomes 1). This method was particularly valuable to those who had perfect pitch. The bottom line for me, and I think many here would agree with me on this, is to be able to hear what you see and then reproduce the sound in your mind's ear, just as we read words aloud. While this is an obvious statement to most of us on the list, there are a disturbingly high number of music teachers out there, particularly on piano, who do not want to go through the pains of guiding their students in this way. The instruction my two sons, ages 8 and 6 are getting in music class in their public school is appalling, and in my opinion, criminal. When I was their age, I used to get in trouble because I always corrected the teacher's erroneous methods, and I fear my boys will follow in their father's footsteps. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:01 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Hello Ger, thank you for advertising my mouthpiece. I have sold over 1000 now. All same type same size. Yes, I agree if you talk about a non professional horn player. Well, a non professional less experienced horn player would surely rewrite a part, if the part is a bit complicated in certain transpositions. Nothing to be said against. My comments are directed towards the students speaking of a professional career some know-you-all semi-professionals or amateurs. And Ger, the comparison is quite lame. Two different instruments remainh two different instruments (hard ware plus physical technique), while transposition skill is a brain process only. In the old days even string players could transpose one step up or down it was necessary in opera operetta orchestras. The reason for the difficulties in transposition skill comes from the fact, that many young player do not read ANY KIND of music as we did. We played all available music in the right key, which meant we had to transpose it. Better transposing another instruments part than losing the job (or gig) to another player. Was quite selfish but worked economically to improve the skill. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.M.J. Otten Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:42 PM To: horn Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Hans wrote: And finally, why do you open the emails on this topic, if you have no interest on that topic ? You make the mistake not those who discuss it. Hans, Good point. But I really could not resist because I knew you would give an answer. My point is that although I have no big problems to transpose and it can be easily be learnt I respect the better playing hornplayer more who is a bad transposer over the bad playing hornplayer who is very skilled in something that is not that important for a non professional player. My 8 year old son who plays the violin can read my hornparts and we can play duets together and off course I can play his violon music. But I still can not play the violin. If you can deliver me a monkey who can play the horn I will teach him to transpose ! Btw: I truly can recommend Hans mouthpiece to everyone. Regards, Ger Otten DNB Afdeling Chartaal Procesinrichting Sectie Procesoptimalisatie Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 1 : +31 - (0)20 - 524 37 93 Tel 2 : +31 - (0)6 - 524 96 189. Message composed on BlackBerry De informatie verzonden met dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
As an amateur who lost 20 years of playing to my other job, I don't see what the fuss is about. After 20 years it all came back to me very quickly. Yeah, B still gives me some problems, but if I practiced more I'm sure I could master it. So maybe we should stop teaching math in school and just give everyone a calculator. What do you think of my analogy Mr. Goldberg? Regards, Joe ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Ger, exactly what you said, makes the difference between professional lay musicians. The lay musicians think mostly how great it be to make great music. They feel they do all for the great music, but forget, that the tools must be acquired first. And many of the lay community of musicians set up the things when it comes to interpretation. Few do it just naturally. To the transpositioin: well it is not necessary to be a great transposer, but at least a decent transposer. As the horn textes are never that complicate, they will not give big head ache to the less experienced transposers, but big head ache to those who do not understand transposition (and music in general) or refuse transposition as obsolete. And finally, why do you open the emails on this topic, if you have no interest on that topic ? You make the mistake not those who discuss it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.M.J. Otten Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:28 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Hi all, I wonder why transposing (to do or not to do) is always such a big issue on this list. I always play from the original parts and I have played in all transpositions mentioned in previous mails. And I also know that it is not that difficult to learn and essential for professionals players to be able to transpose right on the spot. But when I am playing in an orchestra´s or wind band (were I also transpose a lot when accompanying vocalists) I find it more important to have a horn group that can play, is musical, listens to eachother, plays in tune, help eachother, make MUSIC than being able to be a good transposer. I think that is the least difficult task as a horn player to learn. And of course when somebody gets ill just hours before a concert I will take into account that the player to be hired must be able to transpose if necessary, but at the first place (s)he must be able to make music. So for a position in an amateur orchestra / WInd Band I would hire one who can play the horn and make music but is not a star in transposing with it and never the one who is world champion transposing. I decided not to be become a professional player but to make my living as an engineer. Every audition I did in life as a horn player I was hired and that was not because I was such a fine transposer. So please give me a break and let us talk about music !! Just my opinion My regards to everyone on this list, Ger Otten De informatie verzonden met dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u als niet-geadresseerde dit bericht ontvangt, wordt u verzocht direct de afzender hierover te informeren en het bericht te vernietigen. Gebruik van informatie door onbevoegden, openbaarmaking of vermenigvuldiging is verboden en kan leiden tot aansprakelijkheid. De afzender is niet aansprakelijk in geval van onjuiste overbrenging van het e-mailbericht en/of bij ontijdige ontvangst daarvan. The information transmitted is confidential and intended only for the person or entity to whom or which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication, please inform us immediately and destroy this communication. Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of information is strictly prohibited and may entail liability. The sender accepts no liability for improper transmission of this communication nor for any delay in its receipt. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
In the debate on transposition, one point I haven't seen is the importance of knowing your scales and arpeggios. For instance, if you know the A major arpeggio and scale absolutely securely, then you already have much of what it takes to read horn in D. You just see an arpeggio in C major and you finger it in A major, and once you get used to the idea, it happens almost automatically. Since most transposed parts are written in C major (and often largely restrict themselves to the arpeggio and some higher notes in the harmonic sequence) thinking into the fingering of the scale you need works very well. But it can't work like that unless you KNOW YOUR SCALES! Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Transposing
Do you think the audience hears more missed notes due to transposition mess-ups? OR Do you think the audience hears more missed notes due to a confusing amount of notation in transposed parts? Relatively few in the audience will notice such things at all. Of them, only a minority will notice which instrument is involved. Of those, only a minority will have ever heard of transposition, and even fewer will care. They mostly just want to enjoy hearing the music and aren't in the least bit concerned about the techniques involved in producing the sound. It is for us to sort that out - that is what they are paying for their concert tickets for! We have to work with whatever music we are given. Since that includes transposed parts from time to time, it is necessary just to get on with it. Actually, I'm so used to playing classical-era pieces using transposed parts, that it is really quite disconcerting when I find myself playing that kind of piece and am given a part written out in F. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
This is the point, why I see (saw, heard) so many mainly younger players practising even afterbeets .. Their teachers are to be blamed == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan West Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:41 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing In the debate on transposition, one point I haven't seen is the importance of knowing your scales and arpeggios. For instance, if you know the A major arpeggio and scale absolutely securely, then you already have much of what it takes to read horn in D. You just see an arpeggio in C major and you finger it in A major, and once you get used to the idea, it happens almost automatically. Since most transposed parts are written in C major (and often largely restrict themselves to the arpeggio and some higher notes in the harmonic sequence) thinking into the fingering of the scale you need works very well. But it can't work like that unless you KNOW YOUR SCALES! Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Hello Ger, thank you for advertising my mouthpiece. I have sold over 1000 now. All same type same size. Yes, I agree if you talk about a non professional horn player. Well, a non professional less experienced horn player would surely rewrite a part, if the part is a bit complicated in certain transpositions. Nothing to be said against. My comments are directed towards the students speaking of a professional career some know-you-all semi-professionals or amateurs. And Ger, the comparison is quite lame. Two different instruments remainh two different instruments (hard ware plus physical technique), while transposition skill is a brain process only. In the old days even string players could transpose one step up or down it was necessary in opera operetta orchestras. The reason for the difficulties in transposition skill comes from the fact, that many young player do not read ANY KIND of music as we did. We played all available music in the right key, which meant we had to transpose it. Better transposing another instruments part than losing the job (or gig) to another player. Was quite selfish but worked economically to improve the skill. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.M.J. Otten Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:42 PM To: horn Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Hans wrote: And finally, why do you open the emails on this topic, if you have no interest on that topic ? You make the mistake not those who discuss it. Hans, Good point. But I really could not resist because I knew you would give an answer. My point is that although I have no big problems to transpose and it can be easily be learnt I respect the better playing hornplayer more who is a bad transposer over the bad playing hornplayer who is very skilled in something that is not that important for a non professional player. My 8 year old son who plays the violin can read my hornparts and we can play duets together and off course I can play his violon music. But I still can not play the violin. If you can deliver me a monkey who can play the horn I will teach him to transpose ! Btw: I truly can recommend Hans mouthpiece to everyone. Regards, Ger Otten DNB Afdeling Chartaal Procesinrichting Sectie Procesoptimalisatie Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 1 : +31 - (0)20 - 524 37 93 Tel 2 : +31 - (0)6 - 524 96 189. Message composed on BlackBerry De informatie verzonden met dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u als niet-geadresseerde dit bericht ontvangt, wordt u verzocht direct de afzender hierover te informeren en het bericht te vernietigen. Gebruik van informatie door onbevoegden, openbaarmaking of vermenigvuldiging is verboden en kan leiden tot aansprakelijkheid. De afzender is niet aansprakelijk in geval van onjuiste overbrenging van het e-mailbericht en/of bij ontijdige ontvangst daarvan. The information transmitted is confidential and intended only for the person or entity to whom or which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication, please inform us immediately and destroy this communication. Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of information is strictly prohibited and may entail liability. The sender accepts no liability for improper transmission of this communication nor for any delay in its receipt. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Actually you have to calculate how far to lift each foot for every step you take in a staircase under certain circumstance. One example: the old Khmer temple staircases, thousend more steps long ways up in the Chinese holy mountains, staircases in old buildings, where steps can be less or more, where steps can be wider in length. But these are special cases. So is it in music. Learn the advanced basics first but be trained to adapt instantly. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Varnam Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:31 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing In case any of our younger members are inclined to think not everyone on the list thinks hornplayers need to learn to transpose, so I don't need to either, may I add the following questions? from: jim thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing .. Drive the automatic and give yourself less grief. Do racing drivers use automatics? And at what age do they start? mental gymnastics Do you have to calculate how far to lift each foot for every step you take in a staircase? Simon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
That's all very well as long as there are transposed copies to play from. Often there aren't. Emory Waters -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 1:26 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing You people who 'insist' on having horn players transpose make me laugh. It's so ridiculous. It's like saying if you're going to drive a car you have to learn to drive a stick. No you don't, it's so silly. Drive the automatic and give yourself less grief. I have often found more mistakes on the 'originals' than the transposed copies. Play the transposed F part and get involved with the music you're playing, watch the conductor, be in sync with the rest of the section, the rest of the symphony. Leave the mental gymnastics to the Rubik's cubeand yes, I can transpose quite well thank you very much. Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/eww02%40aol.com Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Then you think Richard Strauss be a complete idiot, because he wrote the horns in A or E when the tonality was A or E, so to have very clean horn parts. Horn players have other things to care about, special first horns, than to read a multitude of flats or sharps infront of the notes. A clean part helps you in sight reading. Sight reading in all possible transpositions is a No-problem-task, if transposing skill is acquired from the very beginning of horn studies. Transposing must work spontaneously just from reading to the lips left hand without running through the brain processing first. If the parts are rewritten to F, they are full of accidentals, compareable to Schoenberg or other pieces, where sight reading becomes (nearly) impossible. You laugh about sight reading ? Do you know Amadeus Hartmann´s Symphony no.2 ? No. But what will you do, if an orchestra in a distance of 1 1/2 hours driving rings you up after lunch, informing you, that their principal horn has got a food poisoning cannot play the same nights concert with that symphony. You have never heard or played this symphony. But the other orchestra begs you, to help them out of the great trouble, all other horn players around had declined or were not free for the concert. You were their only hope. Would you say no ? Well, depending on the fee. Yes, I asked for a certain not exaggerated fee, not cheap off course, but adequate. You to would be most happy, if the part would have not that many accidentals. Me too. But I had no choice then. I told this to illustrate the practical use of transposition. And Jim, what kind of transposed music did you play to find so many mistakes in the transposed parts ? Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Richard Wagner Richard Strauss or Puccini or Verdi ? The misprints in the works of these composers are only found in semi-legal newer publications but not with Ricordi, Breitkopf, Peters or Schott. Sorry ! You comparison with the car is quite lame. Automatic has ist advantage for long distance for parking under tight circumstance or when driving under winter conditions, but the drive stick has its great advantage in critical situations, when you must react like a flash or if you go into difficult terrain. I drove both types but returned to the stick after many years on automatic. Horn playing in an opera theatre is like driving on difficult terrain, as you have different situations nearly every night, other conductors, other singers, other pieces (sorry, I speak just for the bigger opera houses of the world not for certain tingle-tangle hanging weeks with the same piece the same asshole in front Some of them are real ass. Sorry to the conductors on the list ; but there are also some, often unimportant or not recognized enough, whom we love Few ... If you need so much energy to get involved with the music you´re playing that you have to save the transposing energy, I am very sorry for you, because your attitude is anything else but never professional. As a professional you must be able to switch your energy on off, your concentration on off, also your emotional expression. Be in sync with the rest of the section (I led the section so the section had to be in sync with me !) be in sync with the orchestra, that is something nobody has to talk about. This is a MUST to make reasonable music. But do not listen to the whole woodwind bunch the first violins until the beat gets to the back rows, because if you hear their downbeat you are late allready. You have to lock in with the conductor, all have to lock in with the conductor to build a sync body. And a good conductor musician (many are just conductors, others are just musicians have no idea about conducting, - both is bad for us) will leave enough freedom for your solo. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jim thompson Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:26 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing You people who 'insist' on having horn players transpose make me laugh. It's so ridiculous. It's like saying if you're going to drive a car you have to learn to drive a stick. No you don't, it's so silly. Drive the automatic and give yourself less grief. I have often found more mistakes on the 'originals' than the transposed copies. Play the transposed F part and get involved with the music you're playing, watch the conductor, be in sync with the rest of the section, the rest of the symphony. Leave the mental gymnastics to the Rubik's cubeand yes, I can transpose quite well thank you very much. Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
My personal view is that original music to be transposed, often makes more sense to me than transposed parts; especially for classical era works. I find it much easier to perceive the function of the notes (root, dominant, seventh, etc) in original notation than transposed parts. The usual transpositions such as E, Eb, D, C, and G for instance, are easier to read and make more sense to me than transposed parts. I am an old player, though, and pretty thoroughly ingrained with transposition as I am now 80 years old. When I was first starting I was delighted to get transposed parts at. Later, as I was more experienced I began to prefer the original parts. I still teach transposition. I think it is a good and useful skill and makes us into better players. Young kids need the experience to grow in this craft as players. Face it. Publishers will not underwrite transposed parts when they have perfectly good, playable parts in their stockpiles of music. CORdially, Mansur's Answers On Jan 23, 2007, at 2:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's all very well as long as there are transposed copies to play from. Often there aren't. Emory Waters -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 1:26 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing You people who 'insist' on having horn players transpose make me laugh. It's so ridiculous. It's like saying if you're going to drive a car you have to learn to drive a stick. No you don't, it's so silly. Drive the automatic and give yourself less grief. I have often found more mistakes on the 'originals' than the transposed copies. Play the transposed F part and get involved with the music you're playing, watch the conductor, be in sync with the rest of the section, the rest of the symphony. Leave the mental gymnastics to the Rubik's cubeand yes, I can transpose quite well thank you very much. Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/eww02%40aol.com __ __ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Paul Mansur wrote: My personal view is that original music to be transposed, often makes more sense to me than transposed parts; especially for classical era works. I find it much easier to perceive the function of the notes (root, dominant, seventh, etc) in original notation than transposed parts... Indeed. And especially with classical era works, or later works written in the same style, one can often find a valve combination that provides the horn in key the music was intended for. Then much of the piece can be played as if on a natural horn, leaving one free to concentrate on other things, such as articulation, not clumsy fingerings. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Another note(sorry about the pun...)on transposed vs. non-transposed parts as it ties to horn writing in the classical genre: If you work in the original keys, even (gasp) using some hand horn technique, you may discover some incredible genius in the part writing becomes apparent. Try the Beethoven 3 excerpt (in F) that finishes with the crescendo to the subito piano high Ab (do, mi, do, sol, do, mi, sol, sol, sol, sol, sol, La(b)) on the modern horn w/normal fingering. A little dangerous? Now try it all on horn in F and gently stop the Ab with a nice legato tongue. Absolutely perfect writing, and it would be so in ANY natural horn key. This one just happens to be in F. If you want absolute security during the performance, using your normal fingerings, but switch to the F side during the g's, use the hand horn technique to finish. If you live and die by transposed parts you can never pick up that bit of information. CORdially, Charles Andy Harris ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Scientific? If you haven't already done so, check out the site for The Catgut Society. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 1:09 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Another note(sorry about the pun...)on transposed vs. non-transposed parts as it ties to horn writing in the classical genre: If you work in the original keys, even (gasp) using some hand horn technique, you may discover some incredible genius in the part writing becomes apparent. Try the Beethoven 3 excerpt (in F) that finishes with the crescendo to the subito piano high Ab (do, mi, do, sol, do, mi, sol, sol, sol, sol, sol, La(b)) on the modern horn w/normal fingering. A little dangerous? Now try it all on horn in F and gently stop the Ab with a nice legato tongue. Absolutely perfect writing, and it would be so in ANY natural horn key. This one just happens to be in F. If you want absolute security during the performance, using your normal fingerings, but switch to the F side during the g's, use the hand horn technique to finish. If you live and die by transposed parts you can never pick up that bit of information. CORdially, Charles Andy Harris ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Hi Jim, .. small world. I just handed the 3rd horn part of Mendelssohn's Elijah (Elias) to a player who will have to play the music Thursday evening. He will have to play (and transpose) movements in C, D, E, A and Bb (there is also some F). The first horn will play in C, D, E, Eb, F, G and A. The point is that we would not be called for this concert if we could not transpose. I firmly believe that if a player wants to be a professional, or even play in a decent community orchestra, he/she will have to know all the transpositions (with possible exception of Db, Gb and maybe Ab which are not common). When it comes time to fill out a section for a major work, we go with the players who can transpose. Those who can't are playing in bands and other wind ensembles and are missing out on the wonderful world of orchestral music. All that being said ... if the transposed parts are sent, our section may opt to use them depending on how clean the music is or which key it's in (I might opt for a transposed part if it's horn in Gb or Db with lots of gymnastics ;-D ). ... Oh ... I get it you were just baiting us into a discussion about transposing. Regards, Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Where to find Gb Db transpositions ? It is even rarer than H (Don Carlo, Brahms no.2, Le Corsaire a few others). F# is prominent but still very rare (Farewell symph., Carmen). === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:43 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposing Hi Jim, .. small world. I just handed the 3rd horn part of Mendelssohn's Elijah (Elias) to a player who will have to play the music Thursday evening. He will have to play (and transpose) movements in C, D, E, A and Bb (there is also some F). The first horn will play in C, D, E, Eb, F, G and A. The point is that we would not be called for this concert if we could not transpose. I firmly believe that if a player wants to be a professional, or even play in a decent community orchestra, he/she will have to know all the transpositions (with possible exception of Db, Gb and maybe Ab which are not common). When it comes time to fill out a section for a major work, we go with the players who can transpose. Those who can't are playing in bands and other wind ensembles and are missing out on the wonderful world of orchestral music. All that being said ... if the transposed parts are sent, our section may opt to use them depending on how clean the music is or which key it's in (I might opt for a transposed part if it's horn in Gb or Db with lots of gymnastics ;-D ). ... Oh ... I get it you were just baiting us into a discussion about transposing. Regards, Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
I think I agree.I didn't start lessons until I went to college, I was self taught and went to wind orchestra rehearsals, which involve no transposition. My first transposition ever happened in the NYOW, Rach 2, and I had learned the part transposed UP instead of DOWN! Anyway, I found transposition frightfully difficult until my 3rd year of college, and Bass clef even more difficult (as a result my low register is only now coming into shape in my 4th year!!) I wasn't even aware that there was so much transposition in the world until I started at college! I wish I'd learned sooner and would encourage anybody I taught to think about it from very early on. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 03:25:26 EST In a message dated 27/02/2006 07:31:53 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: think there is a point where the horn player has to start thinking about learning transposition,but that usually doesn't come until right before college I disagree completely. My 10year old pupils can all transpose at least horn in Eb at sight and can have a good go at Cand Bb as well. They'll attempt any other transposition put in front of them. They don't find it difficult, they just do it as a matter of course- it's as natural to them as putting in the mouthpiece. The earlier you start, the better. Left until college age, yes, then it might be difficult to start. All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40hotmail.com _ Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger 7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
I am a 4th year undergraduate who can't play piano. *blush* From: Greg Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:37:21 -0700 Steve Freides wrote: Basic facility at the piano ought to be required of every musician, in my opinion. It is a requirement at every conservatory and every university music department I know. Why? Many reasons - for one, every instrumentalist ought to be able to at least schlep through the accompaniment or reduction of the accompaniment to their soli. Another good reason is when teaching to be able to accompany one's students. The list of reasons is endless. I remember hearing a story about a university music department which was going to add another very specific requirement to the piano proficiency exam: memorization of piano accompaniment for the song Happy Birthday. Apparently a wealthy donor to the music program had a grandson who had just graduated with an undergraduate degree in some wind instrument. She asked her grandson to lead the singing of Happy Birthday at the piano and he was unable to do it. I think the general sentiment was What were they teaching you the last four years! Greg ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40hotmail.com _ Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger 7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Alan, there is a lot of misunderstanding. Your description sound very sound describes the situation very well. I also coach my group of (now) elderly gentlemen more or less having passed maturity (60). They struggle with embouchure problems, fingering (they getting slow), sight reading (has improved), but the make some nice noise if they have understood the piece (light meals only !. I coach them since twenty or so years it is great fun for me I learned a lot from them. What bothers me in the internet community of amateurs ? Well, some of the amateurs refuse to improve, they refuse to recognize that some skills are necessary some others less necessary. Why ? I did never say, they must take off their hands from the master pieces. But I preach to the young folks as they should have the energy to improve themselves as players as humans, but it seems helpless. Not only in your country. It is worldwide epidemic. Everything nice smooth clean, but without any message. Music has to have edges, lines, colours, excesses as well as calmness, multi expressions - otherwise music becomes a meeningless more or less controlled pool of acoustical effects tempowise assembled pitches. If so, I would rather prefer the imperfect playing of a bunch of amateurs with all the mistakes defects, but full of their enthusiasm respect for the creators of the masterpieces. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:19 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Dear Friends, It sounds perverse, but it's true: Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Doing Poorly. Think about it: If nobody could or should play horn except those people who can do all the transpositions, sight-read all parts in any key any clef, play accompaniments on piano, then lots of folks who can play in tune with reasonable facility, who regularly play musically with pleasing, characteristic sound, who can woodshed tricky passages up to performance-quality, who can play stopped, who can double- triple-tongue cleanly, who can play high, low, mid-range, who pay attention to dynamics, who are experienced dependable ensemble players, etc. -- in short, amateurs like me who can do many of the facets of horn playing well, some poorly, others not at all -- well, if folks like us had to be able to do everything the professionals do or otherwise not play, then we would have to hang up our horns. That's not right or necessary, is it? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
In a message dated 27/02/2006 07:31:53 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: think there is a point where the horn player has to start thinking about learning transposition,but that usually doesn't come until right before college I disagree completely. My 10year old pupils can all transpose at least horn in Eb at sight and can have a good go at Cand Bb as well. They'll attempt any other transposition put in front of them. They don't find it difficult, they just do it as a matter of course- it's as natural to them as putting in the mouthpiece. The earlier you start, the better. Left until college age, yes, then it might be difficult to start. All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basic facility at the piano ought to be required of every musician, in my opinion. It is a requirement at every conservatory and every university music department I know. Typically some majors, e.g., conductors and composers, are required to have a higher level, but all instrumentalists should be able to negotiate a simple folk song and accompaniment in all twelve keys at the keyboard. Why? Many reasons - for one, every instrumentalist ought to be able to at least schlep through the accompaniment or reduction of the accompaniment to their soli. Another good reason is when teaching to be able to accompany one's students. The list of reasons is endless. The piano is the universal instrument for good reason, and I do not say this because I particularly enjoy playing the piano - I didn't touch one for the first time until I was in college and had to work very hard to acquire what meager skills I have. -S- Steve, I agree with you on learning basic proficiency on the piano. Even better, learn basic proficiency on other instruments, or at least have some knowledge of their perfomance capabilities. However, I don't think I would turn down a chance to be coached by Dale Clevenger on the Hindemith Sonata if he couldn't hack through the piano part. Bill - Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Dear Friends, It sounds perverse, but it's true: Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Doing Poorly. Think about it: If nobody could or should play horn except those people who can do all the transpositions, sight-read all parts in any key any clef, play accompaniments on piano, then lots of folks who can play in tune with reasonable facility, who regularly play musically with pleasing, characteristic sound, who can woodshed tricky passages up to performance-quality, who can play stopped, who can double- triple-tongue cleanly, who can play high, low, mid-range, who pay attention to dynamics, who are experienced dependable ensemble players, etc. -- in short, amateurs like me who can do many of the facets of horn playing well, some poorly, others not at all -- well, if folks like us had to be able to do everything the professionals do or otherwise not play, then we would have to hang up our horns. That's not right or necessary, is it? So while it is true that good horn players should be able to do all those things do everything well, it does not necessarily follow that players who can't shouldn't even attempt to play. Better we should do as much as we can as well as we can, while striving for improvement so long as we are able, than that we should give up even trying. In truth, lots of us amateur hacks play over our heads, performing at times way over our actual level of ability. Then again, we mostly know what we can do at a quality performance level what we cannot do, so we stick to what is possible, while striving to expand the range of what is possible, continuing our efforts to get better become able to do more, play harder tunes, sound better, learn more, become more like you. In short, we get the best equipment we can we practice we improve if we can. From the way we sound when you hear us play, you might not even know right off how fundamentally incomplete we are as hornists. Sure, pretty soon you would catch on. But if you were honest, you would also have to say, Hey, who are those guys? They sound pretty good. Does anybody agree with this outlook? Surely I am not the only amateur on the list (even if I am close to the rankest). -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ Basic facility at the piano ought to be required of every musician, in my opinion. It is a requirement at every conservatory and every university music department I know. Typically some majors, e.g., conductors and composers, are required to have a higher level, but all instrumentalists should be able to negotiate a simple folk song and accompaniment in all twelve keys at the keyboard. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
It's a philosophical thing, approaching religion, in the same realm as bbq beef vs. bbq pork (an anathema). De gustibus non est disputandum ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
I am certainly a fan of the amateur player. My grandfather, an Italian immigrant and double-shift mill worker was also an amateur clarinetist. He practiced diligently, if not always intelligently on his instrument and had chops that could go on for hours. His education did not go beyond the sixth grade, and consequently, in order to keep his three sons from becoming mill workers, encouraged, or perhaps forced them to play a musical instrument. He wanted nothing more than to be a major league clarinetist himself, but had to live vicariously through his three successful sons, and later, equally successful grandchildren the majority of whom have a career in music. Perhaps a better educated man would have guided his sons toward law or medicine, but music is what he knew and loved, and deep down most of us in the family are grateful. At the same time, I have heard our local amateur orchestra butcher some great repertoire, while acting as if they are second only to the Boston Symphony. I myself love to play basketball, but never once believed I play at any high level, even if I DO sink the occasional three-pointer. Anytime someone attempts something, it gives them a greater appreciation for those who do it well. My only objection comes when our culture cannot differentiate. I will never be mistaken for Larry Bird or Michael Jordan, yet a number of hacks in the music business have been elevated far beyond that which they deserve. I appreciate Mr. Cole's insight and honesty, but particularly his ability to discriminate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:19 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Dear Friends, It sounds perverse, but it's true: Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Doing Poorly. Think about it: If nobody could or should play horn except those people who can do all the transpositions, sight-read all parts in any key any clef, play accompaniments on piano, then lots of folks who can play in tune with reasonable facility, who regularly play musically with pleasing, characteristic sound, who can woodshed tricky passages up to performance-quality, who can play stopped, who can double- triple-tongue cleanly, who can play high, low, mid-range, who pay attention to dynamics, who are experienced dependable ensemble players, etc. -- in short, amateurs like me who can do many of the facets of horn playing well, some poorly, others not at all -- well, if folks like us had to be able to do everything the professionals do or otherwise not play, then we would have to hang up our horns. That's not right or necessary, is it? So while it is true that good horn players should be able to do all those things do everything well, it does not necessarily follow that players who can't shouldn't even attempt to play. Better we should do as much as we can as well as we can, while striving for improvement so long as we are able, than that we should give up even trying. In truth, lots of us amateur hacks play over our heads, performing at times way over our actual level of ability. Then again, we mostly know what we can do at a quality performance level what we cannot do, so we stick to what is possible, while striving to expand the range of what is possible, continuing our efforts to get better become able to do more, play harder tunes, sound better, learn more, become more like you. In short, we get the best equipment we can we practice we improve if we can. From the way we sound when you hear us play, you might not even know right off how fundamentally incomplete we are as hornists. Sure, pretty soon you would catch on. But if you were honest, you would also have to say, Hey, who are those guys? They sound pretty good. Does anybody agree with this outlook? Surely I am not the only amateur on the list (even if I am close to the rankest). -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ Basic facility at the piano ought to be required of every musician, in my opinion. It is a requirement at every conservatory and every university music department I know. Typically some majors, e.g., conductors and composers, are required to have a higher level, but all instrumentalists should be able to negotiate a simple folk song and accompaniment in all twelve keys at the keyboard. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
OK, here we are agonizing over transpose or not then we get a solid example of the value of transposing. The instances of singers asking for a change up or down on the spot has been referenced in the past when this topic comes up. If an orchestra can meet a singers request to change the key, what do the other instruments do? What is the impact of transposing on everyone else? Apparently they can do it, do they agonize over as much as horn players? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cathryn Cummings Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:49 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing Why learn to transpose? Well, how many times have you been on a church gig moments before the service the Music Minister says, Oh, by the way, it would be great if you could play along on the hymns, too - so grab a Hymnal.? The trumpet players sometimes reach for their C trumpets, but you, as a horn player, don't have that option. The flexibility of being able to transpose on the spot (often in bass clef) can be the difference between getting called back not. I once got a church gig because was willing to play the 3rd horn AND the 3rd trumpet part (not at the same time). I could have Finale-d it, but that wouldn't have helped on the tune they passed out at the rehearsal. As a military musician, I see this kind of thing come up all the time. Sometimes our instrumentation can be flexible, so you could be called upon to cover a euphonium or trombone part, or even the occasional alto sax part. This can happen at a moment's notice if someone is sick or has an emergency on the day of a gig. I once played a brass quartet gig where half the music was written for trombone. The great thing is that if I had been sick, one of the trombone players could have played the gig for me covered the horn parts, too. Every tool you have in your toolbox makes you a more valuable musician, so why not have as many as possible? Cathryn Cummings www.cathryn.cummings.nu/blog ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Bill Gross wrote: OK, here we are agonizing over transpose or not then we get a solid example of the value of transposing. The instances of singers asking for a change up or down on the spot has been referenced in the past when this topic comes up. If an orchestra can meet a singers request to change the key, what do the other instruments do? What is the impact of transposing on everyone else? Apparently they can do it, do they agonize over as much as horn players? Being able to transpose is a classic test of musicianship regardless of instrument. Even in the big university music department I attended as an undergraduate, everyone was required to play at least three single songs in all 12 keys. There are many stories of the virtuosi of the 19th century playing difficult repertoire in other keys without preparation - the names escape me at the moment but I do recall hearing these stories. Likewise stories of Bach improvising fugues at the keyboard. Transposing is a fundamental skill that demonstrates a musician knows what he's playing as more than a set of motions for the fingers - or demonstrates that he doesn't! Anyone who calls themselves a musician should be able, at the very least, to play something simple (like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star or similar) in all twelves keys, and do this at the piano as well as on their main instrument. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
At 7:09 PM -0500 2/26/06, Steve Freides wrote: Anyone who calls themselves a musician should be able, at the very least, to play something simple (like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star or similar) in all twelves keys, and do this at the piano as well as on their main instrument. Why at the piano? -- Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
Carlberg Jones wrote: At 7:09 PM -0500 2/26/06, Steve Freides wrote: Anyone who calls themselves a musician should be able, at the very least, to play something simple (like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star or similar) in all twelves keys, and do this at the piano as well as on their main instrument. Why at the piano? Basic facility at the piano ought to be required of every musician, in my opinion. It is a requirement at every conservatory and every university music department I know. Typically some majors, e.g., conductors and composers, are required to have a higher level, but all instrumentalists should be able to negotiate a simple folk song and accompaniment in all twelve keys at the keyboard. Why? Many reasons - for one, every instrumentalist ought to be able to at least schlep through the accompaniment or reduction of the accompaniment to their soli. Another good reason is when teaching to be able to accompany one's students. The list of reasons is endless. The piano is the universal instrument for good reason, and I do not say this because I particularly enjoy playing the piano - I didn't touch one for the first time until I was in college and had to work very hard to acquire what meager skills I have. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
String players are not used to transpose, so they get transposed parts. As I said many times before, R.Strauss wrote his pieces in different transpositions for the horns to eliminate a lot of accidentals, but if players (incl. professionals) struggle with fingerings on three keys only or for heavens sake on four keys if using the tumb valve also, any argument pro-transposition becomes helpless anyway ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:01 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing OK, here we are agonizing over transpose or not then we get a solid example of the value of transposing. The instances of singers asking for a change up or down on the spot has been referenced in the past when this topic comes up. If an orchestra can meet a singers request to change the key, what do the other instruments do? What is the impact of transposing on everyone else? Apparently they can do it, do they agonize over as much as horn players? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Transposing
wow did this thread get blown up. I think the orignal argument was concerning a high schooler who was looking to play the F parts on a Mozart concerto. I don't think anyone is saying that these transposed parts are for anyone who actually gets a paycheck playing the horn. With that said, who can tell if someone in the 9th grade is playing Mozart using the F parts or the D/Eflat parts? Its easy to sit back and throw mud at band directors in the United States, but if you haven't actually been there, inf ront of 40 beginning students playing 10 different instruments, with 4 classes behind them, then why comment at all? I agree that a band director should pick up on the more talented students, but who is to say they can even hear them with 12 trumpets and 9 saxaphones blaring away and even if they do, lessons still cost money and not all parents see that as a smart option today! I think there is a point where the horn player has to start thinking about learning transposition,but that usually doesn't come until right before college. There is just too much to think abouthopefully looking at the music and knowing what pitch you are to play is one of the easier of the jobs. I still get the sense from Hans, that if you can't read it in the original key you shouldn't be playing it. How many of us would of given up horn or even music if we had never played the beautiful lines in Mozart while we were young...wether it was in Eflat or F? Again we live on different planets. it seems like the European players have quite a start, but I guess we catch up somewhere down the road! Funny lots of talk about line and phrasing, yet that laim Bagatelle is on every low horn audition. Doesn't line and phrasing go along with playing great music? I guess not. Larry (started in 6th grade with a band director) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Very refreshing to hear that, Steve. Prior to my playing and teaching in Rome, Italy, I supplemented my scholarship at Juilliard by being a teaching fellow in the solfegge dept. (Ear Training Dept., actually). When I got to Italy, I was amazed (and humiliated) by how much better at clef reading my students were than I, all of whom applied clef transposition to their horn playing. Of course, they also thought always in concert pitch, naturally reading normal F horn parts in mezzo-soprano clef. Their mental imaging of the proper key signature was second nature. The old school way works very well. William Vacchiano, the legendary principal trumpet of the New York Philharmonic, was a great advocate for number transposition, which first requires very fluid command of scales. He put numbers (scale degrees) to each written pitch and mentally applies them to the new key. He was quite brilliant at it. It works well for horn with the exception 9at least for me) of the occasional Wagner Opera which sometimes requires many changes in the course of a single piece. What I like most about clef transposition, is that you are always calling what you see the actual pitch that is sounding (minus accidentals). Half of my students in Italy had perfect pitch, partly I believe due to their ability to recognize any given line as DO (always fixed at C). O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing When I taught 5th grade, we did transposition right from the beginning. No problem, the students also did solfege, thus understood the functions, root, 5th etc. The real secret of teaching something like that (anything really) is to start with the sound FIRST, then show the student what it looks like later. Do it the other way round and you'll just have some very confused students. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
