RE: [Hornlist] Valves
You have to oil both horns. It is your DUTY. But oil them regularly. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Valves Mr. Mumford, The horn that has the bad sticky trigger is the one that i oil before rehearsals (the one i oil). The one i dont oil seems to be fine. Mike ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
This all confirms, that you are really missing a lot of instructions, Michael. Why, the heck, are you doing the wash process now and not before yesterday or even when you got the recommendation to do so You are the ignorant or the lazy boy. Do things immediately when recommended, the SAME DAY, not POSTPONED. You are lacking the most important DISCIPLINE. Blame yourself first, not others. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 12:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Valves Ok look, No one fully knows my situation, and the things he does to others, even other teachers and colleagues! So please just dont judge me, you are showing your ignorance of this. I admit, some of these things are my fault, I should have posted the question earlier, so i had more time to fix it. Now im going to wash it out. I did as you said professor Pizka about the slight know, it seemed to work, but im still going to wash it out. Mike P.S. what is the valve "bushel"? And can you oil underneath the stop arm retaining screw, does it help? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Oh shucks! That can only cast into doubt the legitimacy of the recent cut-bell conversion done locally on my non-V Yamaha YHR-668N, bcause the rite was performed using a no-name eBay generic aftermarket screwbell ring -- in yellow brass at that. And no ceremonial words were spoken. Not only that, the resulting 2-piece finished product is now housed in a Paxperson flat case instead of 1 from Yamaha. Talk about illegitimate! And it never occurred to me that a woodwind repairperson should officiate. Silly me, I had a frockless brass guy do it. Live & learn, eh? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. At 06:26 AM 12/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: It was strange, When I had my bell cut on my 688V, the woodwind repairmen had donned a frock and Gary the brass guy said "With this yamaha 668V ring, I thee wed." Ever since then, he's always had that ring around his wrist and said he NEVER takes it off. Only to listen to Zamfir, as the pan flute makes his skin react with the nickel. Strange. Chris --- Josh Cheuvront <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Man, you introduce me to this guy! I have yet to find a repairman who does > pro bono work on short OR long notice. I guess that must be a pretty > expensive ring you gave him! > > grin, > > Josh > - Original Message - > From: "Chris Tedesco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Valves > > > My repairman is great about > > this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. > > > > > > Chris ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
It was strange, When I had my bell cut on my 688V, the woodwind repairmen had donned a frock and Gary the brass guy said "With this yamaha 668V ring, I thee wed." Ever since then, he's always had that ring around his wrist and said he NEVER takes it off. Only to listen to Zamfir, as the pan flute makes his skin react with the nickel. Strange. Chris --- Josh Cheuvront <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Man, you introduce me to this guy! I have yet to find a repairman who does > pro bono work on short OR long notice. I guess that must be a pretty > expensive ring you gave him! > > grin, > > Josh > - Original Message - > From: "Chris Tedesco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Valves > > > My repairman is great about > > this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. > > > > > > Chris > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Josh Cheuvront wrote: Man, you introduce me to this guy! I have yet to find a repairman who does pro bono work on short OR long notice. I guess that must be a pretty expensive ring you gave him! Five golden rings! Four calling birds, etc. And a partridge in a pear tree ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
One ring to rule them all... -William In a message dated 12/4/2003 9:15:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Man, you introduce me to this guy! I have yet to find a repairman who does > pro bono work on short OR long notice. I guess that must be a pretty > expensive ring you gave him! > > grin, > > Josh ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Man, you introduce me to this guy! I have yet to find a repairman who does pro bono work on short OR long notice. I guess that must be a pretty expensive ring you gave him! grin, Josh - Original Message - From: "Chris Tedesco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Valves My repairman is great about > this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. > > > Chris ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Hmm... what horn do you have? It always gums up on me... I have about 2/3 of the 8 oz. bottle left... email me privately for an offer :P -William In a message dated 12/4/2003 5:15:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Cum grano salis! > > I've used it with no problem for god knows how long. I'll admit it lasts > less > longer than other oils, but i've never had it gum any valves. > > In fact, any chance you'll give me a good deal on what's left of your > bottle? > > Chris ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Cum grano salis! I've used it with no problem for god knows how long. I'll admit it lasts less longer than other oils, but i've never had it gum any valves. In fact, any chance you'll give me a good deal on what's left of your bottle? Chris --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I have a tank of blue juice sitting around... well not a tank, a pretty full > 8 oz. bottle. I only have it around because I never use it. I used a little, > then stopped. > > Why? Well it just gums everything up and dries out too fast. I think they're > fine for piston valves, but rotary valves are a different story. > > If you have to use it for an emergency you have to clean the whole horn free > of it afterwards in my opinion. > > -William > > In a message dated 12/4/2003 12:10:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I had some nasty valves once before a jury a few years ago and had no time > > to > > have my horn cleaned, so I dumped in a load of blue juice and just moved > the > > valve back and forth until it was worked clean enough to not stick. > > Granted, > > if you're valve is completely stuck you need emergency repair I'm sure > > anyone > > would be glad to do. > > > > Just give a shop a call and ask when you can come in and have somethign > > looked > > at while you wait, I'm sure they would oblige. My repairman is great about > > this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Who uses oil lamps today? I have two in my house stocked at all times. We always get a bad ice storm or two every now and then, and that always knocks out the power for a day or two. Flashlights are great, but oil lamps give off some nice warmth. Thankfully my propane fireplace never will freeze... Also if you stock flashlights in your house the batteries can degenerate or degrade if they're not used in a year or so. -William In a message dated 12/4/2003 3:07:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > who uses oil lamps today ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
Very good advice, indeed, but some super cleaner people will ask for sure, if you use a British size tea spoon or a Russian tea spoon ? And people might ask you where to buy all the stuff from hydrocarbon based auto degreaser to lamp oil (who uses oil lamps today :) :) :)) Some might ask, what voice Singer should be, soprano, alto, tenor or bass .. Cheers to Australia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Evans Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:37 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Valves The best way to fix the problem is really to have the rotors removed and the horn cleaned out, but that not being an option, you could try: 1. Buy a can of hydrocarbon based auto degreaser. This is a strong detergent. Do NOT use any caustic soda based degreaser. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
Oops, I see you've already had this same advice (about using the other horn). Well I guess that's part of the joy of communicating across a myriad of time zones! Chris W -- ___ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves
Couldn't you just use the other horn (the one you usually keep at school) for the concert? It would make you feel more secure about the working parts and therefore probably more secure with playing on the night. Chris W -- ___ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
I have a tank of blue juice sitting around... well not a tank, a pretty full 8 oz. bottle. I only have it around because I never use it. I used a little, then stopped. Why? Well it just gums everything up and dries out too fast. I think they're fine for piston valves, but rotary valves are a different story. If you have to use it for an emergency you have to clean the whole horn free of it afterwards in my opinion. -William In a message dated 12/4/2003 12:10:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I had some nasty valves once before a jury a few years ago and had no time > to > have my horn cleaned, so I dumped in a load of blue juice and just moved the > valve back and forth until it was worked clean enough to not stick. > Granted, > if you're valve is completely stuck you need emergency repair I'm sure > anyone > would be glad to do. > > Just give a shop a call and ask when you can come in and have somethign > looked > at while you wait, I'm sure they would oblige. My repairman is great about > this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
I had some nasty valves once before a jury a few years ago and had no time to have my horn cleaned, so I dumped in a load of blue juice and just moved the valve back and forth until it was worked clean enough to not stick. Granted, if you're valve is completely stuck you need emergency repair I'm sure anyone would be glad to do. Just give a shop a call and ask when you can come in and have somethign looked at while you wait, I'm sure they would oblige. My repairman is great about this, I just give him a ring and he says when he's free. Chris --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello everyone, > I have a question regarding valve sluggishness. This last Sunday I > was at my Youth Symphony rehearsal, andmy trigger was giving me problems with > > sticking. Finally when we play Capriccio Italien, in the middle of the 2 > horn > solo, as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were > confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it > activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn > part was > ruined for that! > The concert is this Sunday, I cant take it into the shop, it would > probably take a week or 3 to get it back, and I dont trust myself to > disassemble > valves for cleaning. > Any solutions? >I use the Holton Valve oil, what is it to be considered? Acidic? > Sinthetic? Would kerosene help with the valve(s)? Do i just oil it under the > valve > caps and underneath stop arm? Or do i put it in a slide and turn the horn > upside down? > Hurry answers are needed VERY SOON! Concert coming up! > > All the best, > Michael Kolaghassi > >P.S. Nex year the first horn is graduating, so I should become first > hornbut, if i mess this solo up (not even solo, just a soli of 1st 2nd > horn) the conductor will probably try very hard to find someone better than > me, > or get my teacher to fill in 1st horn spot. > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
In a message dated 12/4/2003 9:18:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I have to agree with Hans. In my experiences playing horn, I played > Principal all through college, but when I returned home and began playing > professionally, I won positions playing low horn (second). Although Hans > has at times said some things about "tutti" players, every part in the > orchestra is very important, and as he states and I whole > heartily agree > with, playing second IS very satisfying. To further make the point, when I was a senior I moved to Boston and had the very good fortune to fill the vacancy at principal 4th horn in the Greater Boston Youth Symphony, an extraordinarily good high school youth orchestra. I have never played in a more intense and precocious group. My playing improved tremendously very quickly. I beat the principal horn player in audition for district, and then again for all state. GBYSO was ruthless, and I was expected to challenge the principal player. My teacher, Ralph Pottle, of the BSO, sternly advised me not to. I was playing first chair in several other groups, but he was slanting his teaching so I could take full advantage of playing the 4th part in a really strong section. I ended up with a reputation of being the best 4th horn the orchestra ever had. The payoff was that, in the following years, my friends who went to conservatory (I majored in physics) kept calling me up to play 4th in whatever group was hiring ringers. I got far more work than anybody else. There weren't many other college students who could afford to own a sailboat and a musclecar, but I did. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Flush the horn with lots and lots of water with cheap dish washing detergent, such as dawn. The cheap ones don't have a lot of additives. Follow the flushing with clean water flushing. At some point during the process, the valve should clean up and work again. Sometimes you can pull a slide and inject pressurized water right into the valve. It often helps to push the rotor up and pull it down in the casing while turning it. You might even feel the rotor catch a bit if you apply pressure to the dirty area and rotate. Needless to say, valves should be cleaned more regularly if this is the problem. Finally, there is a good chance the valve spring has lost some strength. Thumb springs are usually pretty easy to re-tension. If you look at the spring, you should see an end of the spring being held in tension by the mounting bracket. Get a pair of narrow tip pliers with cerated (not smooth) jaws. Grab the end of the spring and pull hard. You should see the coils wrap more tightly around the lever spindle, and you'll end up with a longer loose end that you're pulling with the pliers. If you pull hard enough, the loose end of the spring will become permanently longer, and the spring tension will be permanently increased. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
Michael, I have to agree with Hans. In my experiences playing horn, I played Principal all through college, but when I returned home and began playing professionally, I won positions playing low horn (second). Although Hans has at times said some things about "tutti" players, every part in the orchestra is very important, and as he states and I whole heartily agree with, playing second IS very satisfying. Last month, I got to really enjoy myself by playing a couple of easy, but important solo passages in Beethoven's fifth piano concerto. It was also enjoyable to play the low Bb and having to make sure the entrance was good and in tune. It was nice for me after rehearsal when the Principal Clarinet turned around and said "Nice job on the low note, Walt". The part is not significant, but has to be heard... Revel in the fact that you are supporting the overall sound of great music. It's like professional hockey, not everyone can score the goals, but in the words of Scotty Bowman, one the greatest hockey coaches of all time, defense and goaltending win Stanley cups. Defense and Goaltending is a thankless, not flamboyant job, but is still very necessary That's my opinion Walt Lewis 2nd Horn, Lake St. Clair Symphony Orchestra (St. Clair Shores, Michigan) 2nd Horn, Grosse Pointe Symphony Orchestra (Grosse Pointe, Michigan) At 07:46 AM 12/4/03 +0100, Hans Pizka scrieb: Regarding first chair: Knowing your many problems with embouchure, tone, safety, etc. (as you described), would it not be wise, not to look for the first chair NOW, but may-be in a year or two. And with a multitude of problems, serving as an assisting second horn can be very, very nice & satisfying. Think about. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 7:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Valves Hello everyone, I have a question regarding valve sluggishness. This last Sunday I was at my Youth Symphony rehearsal, andmy trigger was giving me problems with sticking. Finally when we play Capriccio Italien, in the middle of the 2 horn solo, as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn part was ruined for that! The concert is this Sunday, I cant take it into the shop, it would probably take a week or 3 to get it back, and I dont trust myself to disassemble valves for cleaning. Any solutions? I use the Holton Valve oil, what is it to be considered? Acidic? Sinthetic? Would kerosene help with the valve(s)? Do i just oil it under the valve caps and underneath stop arm? Or do i put it in a slide and turn the horn upside down? Hurry answers are needed VERY SOON! Concert coming up! All the best, Michael Kolaghassi P.S. Nex year the first horn is graduating, so I should become first hornbut, if i mess this solo up (not even solo, just a soli of 1st 2nd horn) the conductor will probably try very hard to find someone better than me, or get my teacher to fill in 1st horn spot. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/welewis%40myexcel.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/03 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/03 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Mike, I too, think that you have gotten some good advice from the posters on how to unstick your valves. One question though, if you have a horn that you use at school and it plays okay, why not just use that one for the concert, if you know it to be more reliable ? You have two horns and that is a luxury that many of us don't have, or giving the expense, takes many years to acquireso why are you so worried ? I kind of hate to say this, but probably most of us have lugged our school horns to and from school to home so you are very lucky. Your band director is being pretty considerate in allowing you to have to school horns to use. So, I'd work with unsticking my valve, but I also would have the other horn ready. If transporting the school instrument home is a problem, then I find it difficult to believe that your mother wouldn't try to help you solve this problem. I don't know about the other situation regarding the upcoming 1st horn opening. First, what do you mean by "next year " ? Do you mean May/June of 2004 when the other player graduates, or do you mean next year as in a whole year ? Although I think that Professor Pizka gave you some excellent advice, there may be some other aspects of this as well. First, it is a youth orchestra, you are not expected to be a mature polished player. who knows at what stage of development you will be at, then ? Second, I find it hard to believe that your conductor would base a decision that he will have to make next year, on the basis of one performance this year. Won't you have an audition, anyway ? Also, after looking up your orchestra in the listings at hornplayer.net, I only see that there are two horns. Three, why is it so important that you have the principal chair ? In many respects second horn is the best slot in the orchestra in my very humble (not even worth 2 euros much less, 2 dollars) opinion. You get a lot of neat parts, some solos and the opportunity to literally play in all registers, plus you are not on the "hot seat". Actually, if your teacher played first and you sat next to her (ed. comment: I happen to know that it is a her) that would be an education too. I wish that I could sit next to my teacher in an ensemble situation (yes even at my age, I still study), I know I would learn something. Make sure that you are not letting a false sense of pride or ego get in your way. Another aspect, you are playing on a horn that you only play once a week. No two horns play alike (If anyone can demonstrate to me physically that they have two horns that are exactly identical in all playing characteristics I will award them a 1954 Olds Single Bb horn as a prize, interested ? Contact me, off list) so in addition to having the stress of wanting to impress your conductor, you also are playing on less familiar equipment. That might not be a big deal when you are older and more experienced, but I'll wager that it affects your playing more than you might think or consider. Anyway, don't panic, you have a back-up and supposing you did take the problem horn to the shop to get it unstuck (I am not advocating this necessarily) I'm sure that if you pled your case, you could get it done with a quick turnaround. Most repair people will respond to an emergency if it is legit...you don't really know until you ask or try, do you ? Take care and best wishes, Mark L. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn part was ruined for that! You already got a lot of good maintenance advice. Another bit of advice: make sure you know all your F-horn fingerings and all your Bb-horn fingerings. You never know when your double horn might temporarily turn into a single horn! Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
The best way to fix the problem is really to have the rotors removed and the horn cleaned out, but that not being an option, you could try: 1. Buy a can of hydrocarbon based auto degreaser. This is a strong detergent. Do NOT use any caustic soda based degreaser. 2. Remove the slides and pour degreaser down into the valves so that the slide receivers are full. Work the valves a bit and add more degreaser to fill the receivers again. 3. Support the horn securely so that the receivers are vertical with the valves at the bottom, and leave it standing for a couple of hours. 4. Clean the horn normally with warm water to completely remove the degreaser. 5. Dry out as much as possible and relubricate the horn. With luck this will help unstick the valve, but it is likely that the formation of green copper carbonate deposit has caused the problem in the first place, and will require dismantling and chemical or ulstrasonic cleaning to rectify. I would suggest the following regime to prevent this happening. Use Singer machine oil or similar to lubricate under the valve caps and the spindles near the linkage attachment once weekly. A bottle with a needle type nozzle is the best and will prevent messy over-oiling. Use a good rotary valve oil to lubricate the inside of the instrument. My method is, after cleaning the mouthpipe, to add about a teaspoon of valve oil to the mouthpipe and blow (without the mouthpiece) vigorously through the horn to spray the oil as a mist through the instrument. This will help to prevent corrosion build up in the valves and windways generally. (You can make up a good valve oil by using 1 part Singer oil with 8 parts of pure lamp oil, or deodorised kerosene) It is also a good idea the make sure that all slides are adjusted fitting wise, so that you can avoid the use of heavy greases on them. Something like STP oil treatment can be then be used very sparingly (!) to lubricate the slides. This helps to avoid the problem of grease build up on the slides getting into the valves. Last, but not least, it goes without saying that good mouth hygiene is better for the instrument's welfare than blowing food particles and Coca Cola spray down your mouthpipe, as some students I have known have tended to do(!!). Clean your teeth before playing Hoping this helps. Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:22 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Valves > Hello everyone, > I have a question regarding valve sluggishness. This last Sunday I > was at my Youth Symphony rehearsal, andmy trigger was giving me problems with > sticking. Finally when we play Capriccio Italien, in the middle of the 2 horn > solo, as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were > confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it > activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn part was > ruined for that! > The concert is this Sunday, I cant take it into the shop, it would > probably take a week or 3 to get it back, and I dont trust myself to disassemble > valves for cleaning. > Any solutions? >I use the Holton Valve oil, what is it to be considered? Acidic? > Sinthetic? Would kerosene help with the valve(s)? Do i just oil it under the valve > caps and underneath stop arm? Or do i put it in a slide and turn the horn > upside down? > Hurry answers are needed VERY SOON! Concert coming up! > > All the best, > Michael Kolaghassi > >P.S. Nex year the first horn is graduating, so I should become first > hornbut, if i mess this solo up (not even solo, just a soli of 1st 2nd > horn) the conductor will probably try very hard to find someone better than me, > or get my teacher to fill in 1st horn spot. > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/graev%40comcen.com.au > > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
Michael, rinse the horn carefully, oil through slides (first slide), perhaps loose the back screw of the trigger, give it a very light knock, which might loosen a too tight bearing plate (the valve cap loosened before (not unscrewed). Move the trigger. It should work then. Regarding first chair: Knowing your many problems with embouchure, tone, safety, etc. (as you described), would it not be wise, not to look for the first chair NOW, but may-be in a year or two. And with a multitude of problems, serving as an assisting second horn can be very, very nice & satisfying. Think about. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 7:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Valves Hello everyone, I have a question regarding valve sluggishness. This last Sunday I was at my Youth Symphony rehearsal, andmy trigger was giving me problems with sticking. Finally when we play Capriccio Italien, in the middle of the 2 horn solo, as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn part was ruined for that! The concert is this Sunday, I cant take it into the shop, it would probably take a week or 3 to get it back, and I dont trust myself to disassemble valves for cleaning. Any solutions? I use the Holton Valve oil, what is it to be considered? Acidic? Sinthetic? Would kerosene help with the valve(s)? Do i just oil it under the valve caps and underneath stop arm? Or do i put it in a slide and turn the horn upside down? Hurry answers are needed VERY SOON! Concert coming up! All the best, Michael Kolaghassi P.S. Nex year the first horn is graduating, so I should become first hornbut, if i mess this solo up (not even solo, just a soli of 1st 2nd horn) the conductor will probably try very hard to find someone better than me, or get my teacher to fill in 1st horn spot. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Holton rotor oil is very bad. It is an oil which dries out very rapidly and is also difficult to apply. However since you only have three days, go down to K-Mart or Wal-Mart. Look in the shower or bathroom section and find a shower or sink hose attachment. They should have some for about 4 dollars each. If the end of it has a plastic shower head or something just cut it off or pull it off. Then slip the hose over the end of the leadpipe (after you snake the leadpipe out) where the mouthpiece goes, hook the end into the shower thing or sing spigot and run some warm water through the horn. This will help to rinse out any oil you have. Drop some liquid dishwashing soap (only a few drops) into the hose and then put it back on the sink and let the soap run through. Wiggle the valves SLOWLY and don't stop the water until the water coming out of the other end of the bell is perfectly clean of soap. After this is done, you can mix a little lamp oil with 3 in 1 oil (available at home depot in a red metal bottle) in a separate container and use it as the bushing oil. Drop a few drops on the BOTTOM crack of the rotor between the stop arm and the rotor casing itself and on the top beneath the screw caps on the usual place. Then you can use straight lamp oil (the clear stuff) as valve oil for the time being. DO NOT OVERUSE IT. The best way for a holton is to place a few drops in each valve's slide and like you're holding your horn normally put them back in all the way. Then tilt your horn valves to the bottom while wiggling the valves. This will put the oil in there. That should work temporarily. I do not recommend using Kerosene or 3 in 1 over long periods of time since they gum up rather easily. Use a nice synthetic like Hetman's, which is available as Osmun.com for 5 bucks a bottle. BE SURE TO WASH YOUR HORN OUT THOROUGHLY WITH SOAP BEFORE USING ANY NEW OIL. Yes, it's an oil change, so you cannot let the two oils mix. -William In a message dated 12/3/2003 10:23:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Hello everyone, > I have a question regarding valve sluggishness. This last Sunday I > was at my Youth Symphony rehearsal, andmy trigger was giving me problems > with > sticking. Finally when we play Capriccio Italien, in the middle of the 2 > horn > solo, as I activiated the trigger, i doubted its reliability, my doubts were > > confirmed, some what expectedly...IT STUCK! It was fine when i needed it > activated during the solo, but when i let go, the vaalve held on! 2nd horn > part was > ruined for that! > The concert is this Sunday, I cant take it into the shop, it would > probably take a week or 3 to get it back, and I dont trust myself to > disassemble > valves for cleaning. > Any solutions? > I use the Holton Valve oil, what is it to be considered? Acidic? > Sinthetic? Would kerosene help with the valve(s)? Do i just oil it under the > valve > caps and underneath stop arm? Or do i put it in a slide and turn the horn > upside down? >Hurry answers are needed VERY SOON! Concert coming up! > >All the best, > Michael Kolaghassi > > P.S. Nex year the first horn is graduating, so I should become first > hornbut, if i mess this solo up (not even solo, just a soli of 1st 2nd > horn) the conductor will probably try very hard to find someone better than > me, > or get my teacher to fill in 1st horn spot. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
Very sorry, I wrote this during day time & had a performance today. And I do not drink any alcohol since years (with very few exceptions, I admit). But I took pity on the "Mouthpice" (sic !) sent by Alan Cole. What a nice typo. So I had to try out other typos. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:16 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing Hans,believe I am detecting a bit of German Scotch here?? - Original Message - From: Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'The Horn List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing a.g., insert bigger end of Mousepeice intwo leakpipe closing. Haw-haw-haw-gr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:32 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing E.g., Insert Smaller End Of Mouthpice Into Leadpipe Opening. -AC. ~ At 03:29 PM 12/3/2003 +0100, you wrote: >For some people it might be necessary to state "push the button on ON >when you start the machine" ho-ho-ho, but it is true. Left hand >is where the thumb points left ... or .. what side of the hand should be >up then Red light is on top, while green is the lower light >etc. There is no end for "intelligent" advice >=== ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/amegenity%40comcast.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
Hans,believe I am detecting a bit of German Scotch here?? - Original Message - From: Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'The Horn List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing a.g., insert bigger end of Mousepeice intwo leakpipe closing. Haw-haw-haw-gr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:32 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing E.g., Insert Smaller End Of Mouthpice Into Leadpipe Opening. -AC. ~ At 03:29 PM 12/3/2003 +0100, you wrote: >For some people it might be necessary to state "push the button on ON >when you start the machine" ho-ho-ho, but it is true. Left hand >is where the thumb points left ... or .. what side of the hand should be >up then Red light is on top, while green is the lower light >etc. There is no end for "intelligent" advice >=== ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/amegenity%40comcast.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
You could always get a PipStick... I play off the leg all the time, and I never needed a pinky hook or flipper or strap. I always found that if your left hand is at the proper angle and your left hand is naturally 'grippy' enough so that you can pull the desired amount. But as a side note, you can 'squeeze' a little with the left hand for extra grip. Notice I said a little. Squeezing too much would definately not be good. :) -William In a message dated 12/3/2003 9:33:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > play off the leg--it's more flexible and helps breathing. However,one > disadvantage of playing off the leg is that it changes the balance point of > the > horn, and the left hand has to pull the horn towards the face. Thus, I need > something to keep my fingers aligned with the keys. When I play on the leg, > I > don't need a pinky hook, duck's foot or strap. > > Herb Foster ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
I play off the leg--it's more flexible and helps breathing. However,one disadvantage of playing off the leg is that it changes the balance point of the horn, and the left hand has to pull the horn towards the face. Thus, I need something to keep my fingers aligned with the keys. When I play on the leg, I don't need a pinky hook, duck's foot or strap. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >... > I actually don't even play with a pinky hook or flipper. When I switched > horns I found them to be incredibly uncomfortable and that the moveable pinky > hook > was too moveable and never wanted to clamp down completely. Plus the anchors > are a magnet to dents. > > I have a really great reason for even taking off the pinky hook, and that is > to aid in using the third finger. If you recall the ring finger and pinky are > > attached by a tendon which makes moving each finger independently much more > difficult. However if you allow your pinky to move freely the third finger > becomes much more dexterous. > > Adittionaly without a pinkyhook or flipper (hand rest) and without a grip you > > will not be able to use rediculous amounts of pressure like you once were > able to before. I find that one's endurance increases dramatically. > __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
a.g., insert bigger end of Mousepeice intwo leakpipe closing. Haw-haw-haw-gr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:32 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing E.g., Insert Smaller End Of Mouthpice Into Leadpipe Opening. -AC. ~ At 03:29 PM 12/3/2003 +0100, you wrote: >For some people it might be necessary to state "push the button on ON >when you start the machine" ho-ho-ho, but it is true. Left hand >is where the thumb points left ... or .. what side of the hand should be >up then Red light is on top, while green is the lower light >etc. There is no end for "intelligent" advice >=== ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
E.g., Insert Smaller End Of Mouthpice Into Leadpipe Opening. -AC. ~ At 03:29 PM 12/3/2003 +0100, you wrote: For some people it might be necessary to state "push the button on ON when you start the machine" ho-ho-ho, but it is true. Left hand is where the thumb points left ... or .. what side of the hand should be up then Red light is on top, while green is the lower light etc. There is no end for "intelligent" advice === ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
For some people it might be necessary to state "push the button on ON when you start the machine" ho-ho-ho, but it is true. Left hand is where the thumb points left ... or .. what side of the hand should be up then Red light is on top, while green is the lower light etc. There is no end for "intelligent" advice === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 2:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing In a message dated 12/3/2003 12:44:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Very important: water empty the horn carefully after playing & oil the > horn then before laying it down for a while. > > Rinse the horn several times a year, using a very mild detergent (dish > washer additive). > I would agree with the above, except to add that the detergent should be a liquid, not a powdered dishwasher detergent, to avoid abrasion from un-dissolved particles. I am sure that is what Hans meant in this post. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
In a message dated 12/3/2003 12:44:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Very important: water empty the horn carefully after playing & oil the > horn then before laying it down for a while. > > Rinse the horn several times a year, using a very mild detergent (dish > washer additive). > I would agree with the above, except to add that the detergent should be a liquid, not a powdered dishwasher detergent, to avoid abrasion from un-dissolved particles. I am sure that is what Hans meant in this post. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
That's what happens often when you buy a cheap grip! The best grip I've seen floating around is the one made by leather specialties. Treated velvet (or something like that) touches the horn, with plastic between the velvet and the leather to prevent nastiness. www.brassarts.com has the best deal IMHO. Having said that, a Clebsch Strap can result in green-ness that is harmless, and is easily cleaned with a brass polish should you care enough. Chris --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'm so glad you mentioned that Hans. I never understood the point of a > "grip." I have had the misfortune of cleaning certain horns belonging to > other > people only to remove the hand grip to find gobs of nasty green corrosion or > mildew. And then I was the one who had to clean that crap off and find some > way of > stopping it. > > Fortunately I usually hand the grip back intact, I never put it back on, and > if there are gobs of green crap on the grip, I never clean it off as a > reminder never to put it back on. It dampens the sound considerably, and are > people > so afraid their horns will slip out of their hands if they don't have them > on? > > I actually don't even play with a pinky hook or flipper. When I switched > horns I found them to be incredibly uncomfortable and that the moveable pinky > hook > was too moveable and never wanted to clamp down completely. Plus the anchors > are a magnet to dents. > > I have a really great reason for even taking off the pinky hook, and that is > to aid in using the third finger. If you recall the ring finger and pinky are > > attached by a tendon which makes moving each finger independently much more > difficult. However if you allow your pinky to move freely the third finger > becomes much more dexterous. > > Adittionaly without a pinkyhook or flipper (hand rest) and without a grip you > > will not be able to use rediculous amounts of pressure like you once were > able to before. I find that one's endurance increases dramatically. > > By the way, where can one find an ultrasonic cleaning device? eBay perhaps? > > Thanks again! > > -William > > In a message dated 12/2/2003 9:44:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I am fortunate not to produce aggressive exhaust &do not produce sweat > > in my left hand, so my horns were never affected by corrosion. The > > oldest horn is over 25 years but still tight as on the first day. There > > is no repair patch. Nor is there any hand guard as a protective (this is > > another chapter of corrosion besides dampening influence for the > > sound). And I use(d) the horn under "heavy duty" conditions. But the > > horns duties are shared now with two other horns of the same model since > > 1996. > > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
Jeweller supply in the internet. I will check the addresses & let you know. There is one starting with "RUBY .." Regarding the other things regarding handschutz (hand guard) and pinky hook and flipper you are right absolutely. Special, if the horns weight rests on the flipper & thus on the joint of the first finger, it retards the action dramatically & leads to cramp. But it is with all things, if the real pro says something from his own experience, he seems to be the idiot & nobody (special from the amateurs) does believe, as they know it all much better. Cleaning ones hand off the sweat is much better than get the horn ruined by corrosion due to the hand guard soaked full of sweat, which cannot evaporate (leather hand hoards). The worst are the adhesive plastic straps found on hunting horns. If they are removed for repair, you might throw the horn away. But again, people don't believe. "If the ox arrives in front of the new door of the stable . " Greetings Hans -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 7:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing I'm so glad you mentioned that Hans. I never understood the point of a "grip." I have had the misfortune of cleaning certain horns belonging to other people only to remove the hand grip to find gobs of nasty green corrosion or mildew. And then I was the one who had to clean that crap off and find some way of stopping it. Fortunately I usually hand the grip back intact, I never put it back on, and if there are gobs of green crap on the grip, I never clean it off as a reminder never to put it back on. It dampens the sound considerably, and are people so afraid their horns will slip out of their hands if they don't have them on? I actually don't even play with a pinky hook or flipper. When I switched horns I found them to be incredibly uncomfortable and that the moveable pinky hook was too moveable and never wanted to clamp down completely. Plus the anchors are a magnet to dents. I have a really great reason for even taking off the pinky hook, and that is to aid in using the third finger. If you recall the ring finger and pinky are attached by a tendon which makes moving each finger independently much more difficult. However if you allow your pinky to move freely the third finger becomes much more dexterous. Adittionaly without a pinkyhook or flipper (hand rest) and without a grip you will not be able to use rediculous amounts of pressure like you once were able to before. I find that one's endurance increases dramatically. By the way, where can one find an ultrasonic cleaning device? eBay perhaps? Thanks again! -William In a message dated 12/2/2003 9:44:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I am fortunate not to produce aggressive exhaust &do not produce sweat > in my left hand, so my horns were never affected by corrosion. The > oldest horn is over 25 years but still tight as on the first day. There > is no repair patch. Nor is there any hand guard as a protective (this is > another chapter of corrosion besides dampening influence for the > sound). And I use(d) the horn under "heavy duty" conditions. But the > horns duties are shared now with two other horns of the same model since > 1996. > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] valves & grease & rinsing
I'm so glad you mentioned that Hans. I never understood the point of a "grip." I have had the misfortune of cleaning certain horns belonging to other people only to remove the hand grip to find gobs of nasty green corrosion or mildew. And then I was the one who had to clean that crap off and find some way of stopping it. Fortunately I usually hand the grip back intact, I never put it back on, and if there are gobs of green crap on the grip, I never clean it off as a reminder never to put it back on. It dampens the sound considerably, and are people so afraid their horns will slip out of their hands if they don't have them on? I actually don't even play with a pinky hook or flipper. When I switched horns I found them to be incredibly uncomfortable and that the moveable pinky hook was too moveable and never wanted to clamp down completely. Plus the anchors are a magnet to dents. I have a really great reason for even taking off the pinky hook, and that is to aid in using the third finger. If you recall the ring finger and pinky are attached by a tendon which makes moving each finger independently much more difficult. However if you allow your pinky to move freely the third finger becomes much more dexterous. Adittionaly without a pinkyhook or flipper (hand rest) and without a grip you will not be able to use rediculous amounts of pressure like you once were able to before. I find that one's endurance increases dramatically. By the way, where can one find an ultrasonic cleaning device? eBay perhaps? Thanks again! -William In a message dated 12/2/2003 9:44:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I am fortunate not to produce aggressive exhaust &do not produce sweat > in my left hand, so my horns were never affected by corrosion. The > oldest horn is over 25 years but still tight as on the first day. There > is no repair patch. Nor is there any hand guard as a protective (this is > another chapter of corrosion besides dampening influence for the > sound). And I use(d) the horn under "heavy duty" conditions. But the > horns duties are shared now with two other horns of the same model since > 1996. > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
Well, Dave, such a lapping difference of a few thousandths, well , why lapping different, if the same "loseness" is achieved by just different screwing of the back screw. The valve body (mainly a cylinder, but taper for 1 or 2 degrees) fits into the valve like a glass stop into the glass bootle (caraffe). Pushing it less verse the bottom (by the back screw), leaves the valve looser a bit. But there are myths within the community of brass players .. many myths most of them used as a cheap excuse for ones own failure ore difficulties. Brass makers live on these myths. Why not ? Customer demand is like an order. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > In a message dated 11/26/2002 12:02:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > I doubt, please admit my doubt, if professionals get the valves lapped > > looser to have better slurs, if professionals (like myself) getting > > disturbed just if the valve closing is out of the markings for just a > > quarter of a millimeter (1/100 of an inch), if other people run crazy if > > the spare mouthpiece has a bore just different for a tenth of a millimeter > > or if the inner rim diameter is narrower for 0,5 millimeters (2/100 of an > > inch). > > > > Yes, I agree with you about the tightness of valves in general, however there > are just such players who want valves lapped looser in the casings. And of > course, by that I mean by perhaps an extra thousandth or so of an inch. I > don't know anyone who wants loose bearings. The bearings should be as > perfect as possible. > > Dave Weiner > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/26/2002 12:02:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > I doubt, please admit my doubt, if professionals get the valves lapped > looser to have better slurs, if professionals (like myself) getting > disturbed just if the valve closing is out of the markings for just a > quarter of a millimeter (1/100 of an inch), if other people run crazy if > the spare mouthpiece has a bore just different for a tenth of a millimeter > or if the inner rim diameter is narrower for 0,5 millimeters (2/100 of an > inch). > Yes, I agree with you about the tightness of valves in general, however there are just such players who want valves lapped looser in the casings. And of course, by that I mean by perhaps an extra thousandth or so of an inch. I don't know anyone who wants loose bearings. The bearings should be as perfect as possible. Dave Weiner ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
At 08:24 PM 11/26/02 -0500, Wes Hatch wrote: . . . Heaven forbid!! I even noticed a difference in the way an H179 played and the way an H279( screw bell) played! Vey interesting! Could you characterize the difference? Jim ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] When I was Tester at Holton every horn was tested on a manometer to measure blow-by throught the valves. The higher the reading the less air blowing past the valves (less tight?) . There was a bottom line that was acceptable. I tested over 40,000 horns while I was there,and I can say with a degree of certainity that the higher the air test the tighter the horn played.The lower readings, which were still within the accepted tolerences, the horn did play a little more flexibly, a little smoother and a little less resistant. Heaven forbid!! I even noticed a difference in the way an H179 played and the way an H279( screw bell) played! Wes Hatch ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
The valve maker is Meinlschmidt in Geretsried near Munich. You have to understand that there is no alternative from tight or untight. A "half tight" or "less tight" is contradicting "tight". There is no "tighter". If the valve is tight it is tight. Punctum. Null is equal null. Empty is empty. There is no "emptier" or "emptiest". This is just a lack of the right vocables. I doubt, please admit my doubt, if professionals get the valves lapped looser to have better slurs, if professionals (like myself) getting disturbed just if the valve closing is out of the markings for just a quarter of a millimeter (1/100 of an inch), if other people run crazy if the spare mouthpiece has a bore just different for a tenth of a millimeter or if the inner rim diameter is narrower for 0,5 millimeters (2/100 of an inch). These professionals, you mentioned, should return to the lip slurs (F-side) to get these nice & fast slurs. Or is just technique of fast notes all what many desire ? "Throwing the fingers in the air", yes, that´s a factor which slows down valve action. Fingers in the "alert" position (like violinists do) on the valve keys, that´s it, not loose lapping valves. If valves are not tight, they tend to shake up & down if the valve cap is not screwed tight & the back screw is lose perhaps also. Tightness of the valves, exactly produced valves, is achieved by screwing cap & back screw tight enough - listen, I said: tight enough - so the valve can turn freely. Precondition: the valve casing & the valve itself are conical even just for 1 - 2 % or degrees. Cylindrical valves getting really tight ? A problem !!! .. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > In a message dated 11/25/2002 4:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > Certainly, smaller exclusive makers may have more quality control that > > those of larger companies (eg. Alexander, Miraphone), but even so, I > > have found those valves clearly superior to common domestic > > instruments. > > I am willing to be corrected, but I believe that Jim Patterson's valve maker > and Gebr. Alexanders' valve maker are one and the same. And yes, they are > very high quality valves. Several custom makers use this valve maker. > > The best valves I've seen are Lawson's. > > And as for tolerances, some times your valves can be too tight. Some > manufacturers' valves seize up regularly because they are made too tight. > I've seen it over and over. Tighter isn't always better. Depends what you > want to get out of your horn. Some pro's even have their valves lapped > looser to get more liquid slurs. > > Dave Weiner > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/25/2002 4:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Certainly, smaller exclusive makers may have more quality control that > those of larger companies (eg. Alexander, Miraphone), but even so, I > have found those valves clearly superior to common domestic > instruments. I am willing to be corrected, but I believe that Jim Patterson's valve maker and Gebr. Alexanders' valve maker are one and the same. And yes, they are very high quality valves. Several custom makers use this valve maker. The best valves I've seen are Lawson's. And as for tolerances, some times your valves can be too tight. Some manufacturers' valves seize up regularly because they are made too tight. I've seen it over and over. Tighter isn't always better. Depends what you want to get out of your horn. Some pro's even have their valves lapped looser to get more liquid slurs. Dave Weiner ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Valves
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I can take a wild guess on who the valves belong too, and I know who you are talking about. His first name begins with an E, and his last name is Schmid, hehehe I have a 11 year old horn of his, and the valves work just as well as they did the first day they were made, and no work has EVER been done to the valves. Schmid has the best valves in the world for horns, hands down. He has the best quality control and precision of any horn manufacturer, including Yamaha, and Paxman, or at least in my opinion. His horns have the highest tolerance in manufacture. Paxman lets a few slip by, and the other manufacturers have too. My old holton had a second F and Bb valve slide that was at 4 degrees off perpendicular. I just wish other Horn manufacturers could have as high of tolerance in manufacture. I bet 1 bucks that if you put my horn up to one that was completed yesterday the properties and measurements of everything would be the same within 0.001 of an inch or something. German Engineering, gotta love it. -William In a message dated 11/25/2002 1:03:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj:[Hornlist] Valves > Date:11/25/2002 1:03:17 PM Pacific Standard Time > From:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > Readers: > > Hans Pizka makes a very good statement concerning quality of valves. > Last month, at the Western Horn Conference (University of Las Vegas), I > had the opportunity to try out several instruments, domestic and > foreign manufacture. > > Without exception valves of foreign manufacture had a much better > "feel" when playing (response, security) than the 'mass produced' horns > by the big instrument companies. > > When I went to Jim Patterson's booth to try out his new prototype horns > (Wow!), I was really knocked out with his valves. He said that he got > his valves from German manufacturer (the name escapes me), but he said > that it has been his experience that those valves of German manufacture > were clearly superior to those he had experience. > > As Hans rightly states, these valves are not cheap. When I inquired > about the price tag of Jim's instrument, he stated that the valves > alone for the instrument ran over $1000 US. Being that this is one of > the most crucial elements, it makes sense to get the best mechanics one > can. > > Certainly, smaller exclusive makers may have more quality control that > those of larger companies (eg. Alexander, Miraphone), but even so, I > have found those valves clearly superior to common domestic > instruments. > > There is such a demand for mass produced instruments by public schools > and hornists of all abilities, the large instrument manufacturing > companies cannot take the time nor the expense to produce an instrument > as exquisitely crafted/aligned as do the custom/hand made makers. > > It is not that these instruments are "bad," in fact it is the opposite. > As a rule, common instruments are of much better quality (workmanship, > design, acoustical research) than when I was a youngster. Even the > student line horns of today rival some of the instruments produced in > the 40's - 60's. > > Sincerely, > > Eldon Matlick > > = > Dr. Eldon Matlick, Horn Professor, University of Oklahoma > Principal Hornist, OK City Philharmonic > 500 W Boyd > Norman, OK 73019 > (405) 325-4093 off. (405) 325-7574 fax > UMI Educational Artist > http://music.ou.edu/divisions/applied/horn/studio.html > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
RE: [Hornlist] Valves
Dr. Matlick, I was very interested to read your comments regarding Jim Patterson's horns. My understanding is that his prototype horns are supposively improved versions of the old Kruspe Horner and/or the pre-letter 8D. Could you comment more fully on Jim's horns? I have been considering a trip down to L.A. to try these out and would very much like to hear what you think. Thanks! (Also, what is the approx. price.) Fred -Original Message- From: Eldon Matlick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Valves Readers: Hans Pizka makes a very good statement concerning quality of valves. Last month, at the Western Horn Conference (University of Las Vegas), I had the opportunity to try out several instruments, domestic and foreign manufacture. Without exception valves of foreign manufacture had a much better "feel" when playing (response, security) than the 'mass produced' horns by the big instrument companies. When I went to Jim Patterson's booth to try out his new prototype horns (Wow!), I was really knocked out with his valves. He said that he got his valves from German manufacturer (the name escapes me), but he said that it has been his experience that those valves of German manufacture were clearly superior to those he had experience. As Hans rightly states, these valves are not cheap. When I inquired about the price tag of Jim's instrument, he stated that the valves alone for the instrument ran over $1000 US. Being that this is one of the most crucial elements, it makes sense to get the best mechanics one can. Certainly, smaller exclusive makers may have more quality control that those of larger companies (eg. Alexander, Miraphone), but even so, I have found those valves clearly superior to common domestic instruments. There is such a demand for mass produced instruments by public schools and hornists of all abilities, the large instrument manufacturing companies cannot take the time nor the expense to produce an instrument as exquisitely crafted/aligned as do the custom/hand made makers. It is not that these instruments are "bad," in fact it is the opposite. As a rule, common instruments are of much better quality (workmanship, design, acoustical research) than when I was a youngster. Even the student line horns of today rival some of the instruments produced in the 40's - 60's. Sincerely, Eldon Matlick = Dr. Eldon Matlick, Horn Professor, University of Oklahoma Principal Hornist, OK City Philharmonic 500 W Boyd Norman, OK 73019 (405) 325-4093 off. (405) 325-7574 fax UMI Educational Artist http://music.ou.edu/divisions/applied/horn/studio.html __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
