[hugin-ptx] Re: Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread kfj


On 6 Nov., 06:36, Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
 I've posted a bunch of the panorama, exposure fused, and exposure
 fused panorama shots I've been working on 
 tohttp://rlk.smugmug.com/Other/Landscapes/4851912_oeCNm#1079379436_dCVAv
 (#9-15).  These are the ones I was making so much noise about a few
 weeks ago :-)

 These aren't actually full size.  Comments welcome.

Nice one!
Seems making noise was to good effect;) Bit difficult to make
technical comments on the images since they're so small, but they look
fine to me. One thing I'm not sure about: it looks as if some of the
images were done with a polarizer. Is that so? The effect of using a
polarizer is that the view will differ quite a bit from one shot to
the next (especially noticable in the sky), and when you stitch the
lot, the result may look slightly unnatural, so it's usually
recommended not to use a polarizer for panoramas, unless you really
want the effect.

with regards
Kay

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Not a Panorama - just control points for Enfuse - How to?

2010-11-06 Thread kfj
On 6 Nov., 01:41, Isaac Gouy igo...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Where do I have to give them separate fake EV values?
 In the exif of the photos?
 In some input field in Hugin?

You don't have to change anything in your images, though that works
just the same. It's enough to go to the 'camera and lens' tab, choose
the 'photometric' subsection, select each image in turn and enter the
fake EV value in the 'EV' field in the lower left of the screen.

 Although from what I've seen a stable camera is a basic requirement
 for enfuse exposure fusion and focus fusion - any movement beyond what
 align_image_stack can fix seems to be too much movement for an
 acceptable result.

Correct. To use enfuse you need very precise alignment. Much more than
in ordinary stitching, where enblend can just try and put the seam
somewhere where there's little visible discrepancy. Your 'movement'
inevitably translates to parallactic errors, so precise alignment
becomes impossible and the result is disappointing. This is no fault
of the software, it's a direct consequence of the laws of optics.
So you absolutely must shoot from the same position. If you can't use
a tripod, find a rock or tree. The problem with focus stacks is that
you have to change the focus between shots, so unless your camera is
mounted somehow, it's very difficult to maintain the same position
from one shot to the next. With exposure blending, you can just do an
AEB with a steady hand and that may still be enough.

with regards
Kay

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Stitcher Tab

2010-11-06 Thread T. Modes
Hi James,

I know that this is a long wished feature. But we have Darkos overview
branch which some massive changes to the fast preview window waiting
to integrate. So it would be a better way to integrate the feature
into this branch and not into default. Now the integration has become
more complicated. And maybe some of your changes need to be done again
after integration.

I needed to fix some issues so that it compiles on windows.
At a first test a had some crashes.
Project 1: 20 images
Project 2: 5 images
1.) Load project 1
2.) Switch to cp tab and select image 1 and image 15 (e.g.)
3.) Load project 2 - crash

I think this happens when an image with a number higher than the new
max image number is selected in the cp tab.

Thomas

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Krawitz
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 01:35:55 -0700 (PDT), kfj wrote:

 On 6 Nov., 06:36, Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
 I've posted a bunch of the panorama, exposure fused, and exposure
 fused panorama shots I've been working on 
 tohttp://rlk.smugmug.com/Other/Landscapes/4851912_oeCNm#1079379436_dCVAv
 (#9-15).  These are the ones I was making so much noise about a few
 weeks ago :-)

 These aren't actually full size.  Comments welcome.

 Nice one!
 Seems making noise was to good effect;) Bit difficult to make
 technical comments on the images since they're so small, but they look
 fine to me. One thing I'm not sure about: it looks as if some of the
 images were done with a polarizer. Is that so? The effect of using a
 polarizer is that the view will differ quite a bit from one shot to
 the next (especially noticable in the sky), and when you stitch the
 lot, the result may look slightly unnatural, so it's usually
 recommended not to use a polarizer for panoramas, unless you really
 want the effect.

No polarizer; this was done with curve and saturation tweaking (in
some cases selectively on the sky).

I uploaded them to SmugMug at horizontal sizes of 3000~4000 pixels
(the originals were 8000~16000).  At some point I'll probably go back
and upload the full size.

I learned a lot during this, and next time it will be quite a bit
faster.

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Problems building HG default version on Windows

2010-11-06 Thread davidefa
Hugin_2010.3.0 now requires also the boost library signals. To rebuild
boost libraries:

bjam --with-date_time --with-thread --with-regex --with-filesystem --
with-iostreams --with-system --with-signals toolset=msvc variant=debug
variant=release link=static threading=multi runtime-link=static stage

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Krawitz
Some other comments about this whole thing:

1) Panoramas with extreme wide angle lenses do work.  The 360 of
   Provincetown and the shot down Crawford Notch (with the road and
   railroad running off into the distance) were both taken with my
   8-16 mm lens at 8 mm.  There is some distortion at that setting,
   which didn't matter for the Crawford Notch shot but which did for
   Provincetown (with the horizon visible just about everywhere).  In
   the latter case, I had to use a lot of horizontal control points
   and other linear control points to correct it, but when I did,
   things snapped into place.  For Crawford Notch, I simply didn't
   worry about it and had no problem.

2) Even with an extreme wide angle lens, photos should be taken as
   closely spaced as practicable, preferably not more than 45 degrees
   apart.  Remapping to cylindrical (which I use) or equirectangular
   causes the images to severely barrel; if there isn't a lot of
   overlap, there will be a lot of foreground that isn't usable after
   cropping.  At Provincetown, I had no choice but to space them 90
   degrees apart due to the construction of the monument I was
   shooting from (and it's very obvious that there's no other place
   from where I could take this shot).

   If the viewing platform were octagonal rather than square, I could
   have gotten a lot more foreground.

3) Except for the sunsets (on a tripod) and the 360 (on a monopod, but
   from different locations), everything was hand held.  That should
   have caused problems in the foreground from perspective
   errors...but in practice didn't.  The reason is that these shots
   emphasize background more than foreground, and I simply tossed
   control points in the foreground that were correct but which had
   large errors.  Enblend managed to do a good job; there aren't a lot
   of visible seams even if you do know where to look.

4) Blend stacks or fuse layers: that is the question.  Blending from
   stacks caused some colorimetric problems in the 360; the areas near
   the edges of the original photos turned out noticeably lighter.
   However, fusing layers caused ghosting problems where enblend
   picked different seam lines for each exposure set (quite apart from
   ghosting caused by subject motion between the three shots in each
   stack).  In the end, I went with blending stacks.

   I guess one way around this would be to use enblend with one layer,
   generate the masks from it, and use those masks to blend the other
   layers.  Perhaps Hugin could automate that?  It would probably
   yield the best results of all when blending a panorama consisting
   of exposure-bracketed stacks.

5) Related to point (2), if you don't take enough extra shots at both
   ends of what you're interested in, the barreling effect of the
   remapping will result in either the left and right ends not being
   usable or having to crop a lot vertically.  I found an easy
   workaround for this problem.  After creating the initial panorama,
   run Hugin again on the panorama (just the one image).  Specify the
   lens as a wide angle cylindrical lens, and then specify the output
   projection as rectilinear.  This has the opposite effect of
   remapping rectilinear to cylindrical: it pincushions the result.
   Experimenting with different angles (I used 20 mm for Crawford
   Notch and 30-35 for most of the others, which were taken with the
   longer end of the 8-16 lens) eventually gave me something good in
   each case.  Until I came up with that trick, I was faced with a
   very unpleasant cropping decision on the sunset panorama, but this
   trick expanded the height at the left and right enough that I got
   everything I wanted.  Taking one more shot (or bracket sequence) at
   each end, and setting the lens to somewhat wider than I really
   wanted, also would have solved this problem.

   This obviously won't work for the 360.

6) Autocrop isn't all that useful.  Sometimes the cropping decisions
   it made were rather strange.  But there's another kind of autocrop
   that would have been very useful to me: crop to the outer envelope
   of the panorama (rather than something approximating an inner
   envelope or maximum fully covered area).

   (Sorry, I don't have time to get involved here; I have a big
   backlog of stuff as it is with Gutenprint that I need to get to, so
   perhaps Yuv will forgive me for suggesting this enhancement without
   providing code to go along with it!)

7) I'm still not entirely happy with what enfuse does, particularly
   with sunsets and very bright sky near the horizon (see the sunset
   panorama -- the dark exposures have plenty of detail in the clouds
   near the horizon that enfuse lost, and there's no way to get it
   back).  The exposure-mu and exposure-sigma parameters (and, for
   that matter, the others) are not at all intuitive.  It's a great
   tool and a lot easier than tone mapping with qtpfsgui aka
   luminance, but for a 

[hugin-ptx] Re: Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread Andreas Metzler
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
[...]
 8) For control points with exposure stacks, I found the following
   strategy to work well: connect the middle exposures to the other
   middle exposures, and connect the low and high exposures only to
   the middle exposure of the same stack (and maybe to each other, but
   only within the same stack).  The CP finders that I've tried don't
   do too good of a job of matching features between images that are
   exposed very differently (or in general for areas that are badly
   exposed, and I'm intentionally badly exposing to get selective good
   exposure in the highlights and shadows), and it's important to have
   a really good match between the exposures in each stack.  So I
   simply knock out all the control points connecting high and low
   exposures with any shot in a different stack.

If you assign the images to stacks using Autopano-SIFT-C
(multirow/stacked) as control point detector will do something like
this.

cu andreas

-- 
`What a good friend you are to him, Dr. Maturin. His other friends are
so grateful to you.'
`I sew his ears on from time to time, sure'

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Not a Panorama - just control points for Enfuse - How to?

2010-11-06 Thread Isaac Gouy


On Nov 6, 1:58 am, kfj _...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On 6 Nov., 01:41, Isaac Gouy igo...@yahoo.com wrote:

  Where do I have to give them separate fake EV values?
  In the exif of the photos?
  In some input field in Hugin?

 You don't have to change anything in your images, though that works
 just the same. It's enough to go to the 'camera and lens' tab, choose
 the 'photometric' subsection, select each image in turn and enter the
 fake EV value in the 'EV' field in the lower left of the screen.

  Although from what I've seen a stable camera is a basic requirement
  for enfuse exposure fusion and focus fusion - any movement beyond what
  align_image_stack can fix seems to be too much movement for an
  acceptable result.

 Correct. To use enfuse you need very precise alignment. Much more than
 in ordinary stitching, where enblend can just try and put the seam
 somewhere where there's little visible discrepancy. Your 'movement'
 inevitably translates to parallactic errors, so precise alignment
 becomes impossible and the result is disappointing. This is no fault
 of the software, it's a direct consequence of the laws of optics.

The only reason I was tempted to try was that as you say, in ordinary
stitching there's often little visible discrepancy.


 So you absolutely must shoot from the same position. If you can't use
 a tripod, find a rock or tree. The problem with focus stacks is that
 you have to change the focus between shots, so unless your camera is
 mounted somehow, it's very difficult to maintain the same position
 from one shot to the next. With exposure blending, you can just do an
 AEB with a steady hand and that may still be enough.

As long as the camera provides a wide enough bracket, otherwise it's
the same situation as focus fusion :-)

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread kfj


On 6 Nov., 16:22, Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
 Some other comments about this whole thing:

 4) Blend stacks or fuse layers: that is the question.  Blending from
    stacks caused some colorimetric problems in the 360; the areas near
    the edges of the original photos turned out noticeably lighter.
    However, fusing layers caused ghosting problems where enblend
    picked different seam lines for each exposure set (quite apart from
    ghosting caused by subject motion between the three shots in each
    stack).  In the end, I went with blending stacks.

I am more of a stack person myself, for precisely these reasons. I
think I should point you to an interesting technique here. If you take
a good look at the enfuse manual, it states (quote)

7.3.2 Common Misconceptions

  Here are some surprisingly common misconceptions about exposure
series.

A single image cannot be the source of an exposure series.

Raw-files in particular lend themselves to be converted multiple times
and the results being fused together. The technique is simpler,
faster, and usually even looks better than digital blending (as
opposed to using a graduated neutral density filter) or blending
exposures in an image manipulation program. Moreover, perfect
alignment comes free of charge!
...
(end quote)

How can that be? Because your camera has a greater dynamic range than
can be shown on the screen. So if you take a raw image that is not
overexposed anywhere at low ISO, there is plenty of dynamic range to
play with. What you do is, for example, develop the raw once to show
the sky perfectly, at the same time letting the shadows go very dark,
and then develop again to an image where the sky is white but the land
is perfectly exposed. If you enfuse these two exposures (using mainly
saturation as your criterion), the effect is often astonishingly good.
Try playing with that! as the manual says, perfect alignment comes
with the technique free of charge.

with regards
KFJ

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Stitcher Tab

2010-11-06 Thread Yuval Levy
Hi devs,

On November 6, 2010 06:32:36 am T. Modes wrote:
 I know that this is a long wished feature. But we have Darkos overview
 branch which some massive changes to the fast preview window waiting
 to integrate. So it would be a better way to integrate the feature
 into this branch and not into default. Now the integration has become
 more complicated. And maybe some of your changes need to be done again
 after integration.

quick fix.  how good is tip to branch out a release?  are there critical bugs 
that need attention?

If there is consensus amongst the devs I can branch out 2010.4 and run the 
release process.  This will free tip for the integration of the overview 
branch and solve the current bottleneck.

Yuv


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Some of my recent hugin efforts

2010-11-06 Thread Yuval Levy
On November 6, 2010 01:36:57 am Robert Krawitz wrote:
 Comments welcome.

thank you for sharing.  good to see that the effort was worth it.  some of them 
are a bit oversaturated for my taste, but that's purely subjective.

I hope to see you regularly here.
Yuv


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Re: [hugin-ptx] LP demo link

2010-11-06 Thread Yuval Levy
Hi Lukáš

On November 4, 2010 09:41:17 am Lukáš Jirkovský wrote:
  I am trying to avoid own hosting because it eats up resources that we
  don't have.  If we had resources,  I would prefer to see them
  prioritized first to provide official binary releases than hosting.
 
 Ah, the windows binary saga... Almost forgot about it.

It's not just windows.  Some windows users happen to be the more vocal about 
it, but the issue concerns the project as a whole and every supported 
platform.  I still don't want to think what would happen if Harry would give 
up the Mac for Kubuntu  ;-)

During the 2010.2 release cycle Windows installers were actually at the 
forefront, both in terms of quantity and quality.  For the first time we have 
both a 32bit and 64bit binary installer on the official SF download space and 
there are a number of capable builders/contributors sharing on this list.  The 
wiki documentation is not up to date yet, but at some point they will discover 
that too.

I will feel comfortable about project resources when we can achieve the 
following:
1. at least two experienced active builders for every major supported platform
2. official binary distributions for all major supported platforms within a 
week 
of release of source code tarballs.

Yuv


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Stitcher Tab

2010-11-06 Thread Bruno Postle

On Sat 06-Nov-2010 at 14:22 -0400, Yuval Levy wrote:


quick fix.  how good is tip to branch out a release?  are there critical bugs
that need attention?


I think it is ok.  There are bound to be some more bugs that need 
fixing, and maybe some new ones from the background image loading, 
but now is the time to do a feature freeze and go for a release.



If there is consensus amongst the devs I can branch out 2010.4 and run the
release process.  This will free tip for the integration of the overview
branch and solve the current bottleneck.


Thanks for offering to do the release, it would be great to get 
2010.4.0 out before the end of the year.  Especially since it will 
be the first Hugin version with a full feature-set.


--
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Stitcher Tab

2010-11-06 Thread Bruno Postle

On Sat 06-Nov-2010 at 03:32 -0700, Thomas Modes wrote:


I know that this is a long wished feature. But we have Darkos overview
branch which some massive changes to the fast preview window waiting
to integrate. So it would be a better way to integrate the feature
into this branch and not into default. Now the integration has become
more complicated.


I was going to say that one of the advantages of moving to Mercurial 
is that it ought to be possible to pull all the updated stuff from 
the tip into the overview branch and then merge this branch with the 
tip later (something that would have been painful with Subversion).


..but James just did this, so it looks to be ok.

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[hugin-ptx] Recent changes to default branch slow preview display

2010-11-06 Thread Tduell
Hullo All,
I have just been testing the recent changes in the default branch (rev
b6554a90d55), and am seeing slow display of images in both the fast
preview window and the control points tab.
For example, if I select the control points tab, then select images 0
and 1, there is a noticeable delay before image 1 is displayed, and
moving on to images 1,2 there is a delay before image 2 is displayed.
In the fast preview window, if I select photometrics, each image is
displayed with a delay between. This does vary between projects, some
of the scanned images I have been playing with are larger and they do
exhibit a more noticeable delay.
This has never been an issue on my system previously, images in the
control points tab and FPW have always 'appeared' to display
instantly, so for my typical project, these recent changes seem to be
a step backwards. I guess the changes do have some benefit in areas or
projects that I don't use.

Is there a cmake or configure option that might help with this?

Cheers,
Terry

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[hugin-ptx] Precondition violation - crash

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Krawitz
With the current (or least past few days) Mercurial, if I open a
project (or create a new one, open the control point table, and click
on a control point, I get the following crash:

ContractViolation: 
Precondition violation!
BasicImage::upperLeft(): image must have non-zero size.
(/home/rlk/sandbox/hugin/src/foreign/vigra/vigra/basicimage.hxx:857)

If, however, I open either preview (the slow one or the fast GL one),
I'm able to do so.

-- 
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
--Eric Crampton

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[hugin-ptx] Enblend's determination of feature size

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Krawitz
As I understand it, enblend selects the seam width based on its
determination of feature size -- the smaller the local feature size
(the more detail there is), the narrower the seam.

The problem here is that when the feature size is anisotropic -- for
example, the local features consist of long horizontal lines --
enblend doesn't pick the seam width very well.  The attached image
fragment demonstrates this.  The local features are long, more or less
featureless horizontal lines, so there's a lot of detail in the
vertical direction but almost none in the horizontal direction.

If a seam crosses these lines, enblend selects a narrow seam because
there's a fair amount of local detail.  The problem is that there
isn't really much detail across the seam boundary.  In this case, the
horizontal lines were rows of waves in the far distance, so they moved
between shots (there may also have been focus differences playing a
part).

I think that enblend should primarily at the detail perpendicular to
the seam and ignore detail parallel to the seam.  In this case,
there's a fair amount of detail in the vertical direction, parallel to
the seam, but almost nothing perpendicular to it.

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enblend-issue.tif

[hugin-ptx] some mailing list admin, displaying the membership list

2010-11-06 Thread Bruno Postle
I'd like to change a googlegroups setting so that members can see 
the members list.  This page doesn't include email addresses, just 
usernames.


The old 'ptx' mailman list allowed this, and it doesn't seem right 
that this stuff should be hidden in an open project.


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Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Recent changes to default branch slow preview display

2010-11-06 Thread James Legg
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 15:58 -0700, Tduell wrote:
 Hullo All,
 I have just been testing the recent changes in the default branch (rev
 b6554a90d55), and am seeing slow display of images in both the fast
 preview window and the control points tab.

The images now show as a temporary place holder while they are fetched
and decoded. Previously the user interface would freeze and not respond
during image loading.

This means when you start the fast preview, the window should appear and
become usable much quicker, but take just as long to get all the images.
Similarly, the control point will show a blank image and let you do
other things while the image is loading.

 This has never been an issue on my system previously, images in the
 control points tab and FPW have always 'appeared' to display
 instantly, so for my typical project, these recent changes seem to be
 a step backwards.

Is the total time taken noticeably slower? Or is it the display changing
without the images present which you don't like?

 Is there a cmake or configure option that might help with this?

Sorry, I didn't make it optional. I thought having an unresponsive
interface while images load was always a bad thing. If there is a
noticeably slower total time between request and full result displaying,
I would say that is a bug however.

-James

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Stitcher Tab

2010-11-06 Thread James Legg
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 03:32 -0700, T. Modes wrote:
 I know that this is a long wished feature. But we have Darkos overview
 branch which some massive changes to the fast preview window waiting
 to integrate. So it would be a better way to integrate the feature
 into this branch and not into default.

I've merged changes from default into the overview branch, so merging
overview into default should be much easier now.

 Project 1: 20 images
 Project 2: 5 images
 1.) Load project 1
 2.) Switch to cp tab and select image 1 and image 15 (e.g.)
 3.) Load project 2 - crash
 I think this happens when an image with a number higher than the new
 max image number is selected in the cp tab.

I tried something similar, but on my system the control point editor
selected the highest numbered image in the second project, displayed it
when loaded, and carried on as usual. Could you provide a backtrace for
this crash?

-James

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Re: [hugin-ptx] some mailing list admin, displaying the membership list

2010-11-06 Thread michael crane
On 6 November 2010 23:24, Bruno Postle br...@postle.net wrote:
 I'd like to change a googlegroups setting so that members can see the
 members list.  This page doesn't include email addresses, just usernames.

ok with me

mick

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Re: [hugin-ptx] some mailing list admin, displaying the membership list

2010-11-06 Thread Bernd Hohmann

On 07.11.2010 00:24, Bruno Postle wrote:

I'd like to change a googlegroups setting so that members can see
the members list.  This page doesn't include email addresses, just
usernames.


Ok to me.

Bernd

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Precondition violation - crash

2010-11-06 Thread James Legg
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 19:01 -0400, Robert Krawitz wrote:
 With the current (or least past few days) Mercurial, if I open a
 project (or create a new one, open the control point table, and click
 on a control point, I get the following crash:
 
 ContractViolation: 
 Precondition violation!
 BasicImage::upperLeft(): image must have non-zero size.
 (/home/rlk/sandbox/hugin/src/foreign/vigra/vigra/basicimage.hxx:857)

Thanks for reporting this. I fixed it in Mercurial.

-James

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