Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

No changes in the last month or two, waiting on new releases of software 
and authors priorities of course.
Yes that's the second one I've seen listed, the one used by Tinkerforge 
mentioned above is the other.  I suspect we will see quite a few appear as 
demand for such systems is increasing for many sorts of applications.
The best change we could see is for the EXIF standard to include the 
parameters, then the field will be open for camera manufactures and others 
to include the data along with what is currently available all in the same 
format/protocol.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

Hey geoff, any progress?

This looks pretty good 
http://www.sbg-systems.com/products/ig-500a
probably expensive though!


On Friday, April 27, 2012 1:19:29 AM UTC+2, Geoff G8DHE wrote:
>
> Just an update on progress in using the GPSImageDirection, GPSPitch & 
> GPSRoll.
> I have put together a very quick page on the practical use of logging and 
> using the data from within ExifTool.
> I suspect the format I have used for PTGui input, with small 
> modifications, could be used with Hugin as well.
> For those interested the page is here 
> http://360.g8dhe.net/cameraattitude/cameraattitude.htm
>
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Just an update on progress in using the GPSImageDirection, GPSPitch & 
GPSRoll.
I have put together a very quick page on the practical use of logging and 
using the data from within ExifTool.
I suspect the format I have used for PTGui input, with small modifications, 
could be used with Hugin as well.
For those interested the page is here 
http://360.g8dhe.net/cameraattitude/cameraattitude.htm

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

that looks interesting. i bet it's not accurate enough for anything useful.

if you buy me one, i'll ask robot boy to whip something together. :)



On Friday, April 6, 2012 5:00:54 PM UTC+2, zarl wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> what about this one: 
> https://shop.tinkerforge.com/bricks/imu-brick.html 
> This one seems to have a 0.01 degree resolution for roll, pitch and 
> yaw. 
>
> Cheers, 
> Carl

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Yes that one looks fun, fairly cheap too. It fuses gyro,accelerometer and
magnetometer so it gives a stable solution.  Resolution does not mean
accuracy ;-), but it should be good enogh for playing around.

I wish a digital camera could catch and save some data over USB at the
moment of shooting, then we would be almost there. Now this will require
external logging and correlation with the photos in post processing.

Cheers
/O



2012/4/6 zarl 

> Hi,
>
> what about this one:
> https://shop.tinkerforge.com/bricks/imu-brick.html
> This one seems to have a 0.01 degree resolution for roll, pitch and
> yaw.
>
> Cheers,
> Carl
>
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/O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[zarl]

Hi,

what about this one:
https://shop.tinkerforge.com/bricks/imu-brick.html
This one seems to have a 0.01 degree resolution for roll, pitch and
yaw.

Cheers,
Carl

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola)]

Uau :) lol! I really didn't realize that! And it has also the gear
reduction as long as I know, so they are in general strong. The only
"problem"/feature that don't allow them to be used to rotate the horizontal
axis is that they only rotate 180º as long as I've seen till now.

I think this one can maybe do the job on the vertical movement:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mg996r-metal-gear-digital-torque-servos-with-gears-and-parts-35763

Some of them don't have the specification of kg/cm but instead something
like a "9g" specification like this one:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/dynam-9g-mini-servo-translucent-black-17988

What does that mean?

Thanks!

Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
http://cartola.org/360



2012/2/7 paul womack 

> Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola) wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am probably going to make a robot tripod head controled by an arduino.
>> I already the arduino and I am going to test some motors soon. Using
>> this kind of thing can't you put some kind of position sensors in the
>> tripod head to get the ypr parameters? I thought about some axial
>> sensor, like some based on resistance or something like that. Don't
>> really know how precise they can be. They could be connected to the same
>> arduino on the robot to register the movement. Another possibility is
>> using step-motors. I also don't know how precise they are, but they do
>> preset known step rotation. I also don't know if they would be strong
>> enough to be used on the arm that moves the camera vertically. I was
>> thinking about using a servo there.
>>
>
> A motor+sensor+feedback combination IS a servo!
>
>  BugBear
>
>
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[paul womack]

Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola) wrote:

Hi,

I am probably going to make a robot tripod head controled by an arduino.
I already the arduino and I am going to test some motors soon. Using
this kind of thing can't you put some kind of position sensors in the
tripod head to get the ypr parameters? I thought about some axial
sensor, like some based on resistance or something like that. Don't
really know how precise they can be. They could be connected to the same
arduino on the robot to register the movement. Another possibility is
using step-motors. I also don't know how precise they are, but they do
preset known step rotation. I also don't know if they would be strong
enough to be used on the arm that moves the camera vertically. I was
thinking about using a servo there.


A motor+sensor+feedback combination IS a servo!

 BugBear

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

There are several Arduino based Pano heads a Google search will find 
several links including this one 
http://openrise.com/lab/bender_328/index.htm?arduino

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola)]

Hi,

I am probably going to make a robot tripod head controled by an arduino. I
already the arduino and I am going to test some motors soon. Using this
kind of thing can't you put some kind of position sensors in the tripod
head to get the ypr parameters? I thought about some axial sensor, like
some based on resistance or something like that. Don't really know how
precise they can be. They could be connected to the same arduino on the
robot to register the movement. Another possibility is using step-motors. I
also don't know how precise they are, but they do preset known step
rotation. I also don't know if they would be strong enough to be used on
the arm that moves the camera vertically. I was thinking about using a
servo there.

Has anybody here already built your own robot? Is the project available?

Another thing that can be used with the robot to maybe put the values
directly into the exif is the Magic Lantern firmware for
canon.
It is a free software and really makes fantastic things. I bet it could
read values through the usb connector of the camera (although I didn't
search about it).

Cheers,

Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
http://cartola.org/360



2012/2/6 Oskar Sander 

> You will be fine Geoff, I'll look forward to hear about your results!
> Sensor data fusion is bread and butter today, btw.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> 2012/2/4 Geoff G8DHE 
>
>> Well try these for size;
>> http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/IC/HMC105X.pdf
>> and prices here;
>>
>> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/947939-sensor-magnetic-3-axis-16-plcc-hmc1053.html
>> Calibration can be achieved in-situ quite happily, at least for the sort
>> of accuracy I need, I'm not expecting template accuracy merely sufficient
>> to act as an aid to alignment so that images are arranged in an appropriate
>> grid.
>> Also having now used the Solmeta Pro GPS with 3-axis compass for a couple
>> of years it works quite happily for the purpose above.  I'm also quite sure
>> that over time accuracy will improve and costs likely fall at the same time.
>>
>>  --
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>
>
>
> --
> /O
>
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

You will be fine Geoff, I'll look forward to hear about your results!
Sensor data fusion is bread and butter today, btw.

Cheers

2012/2/4 Geoff G8DHE 

> Well try these for size;
> http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/IC/HMC105X.pdf
> and prices here;
>
> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/947939-sensor-magnetic-3-axis-16-plcc-hmc1053.html
> Calibration can be achieved in-situ quite happily, at least for the sort
> of accuracy I need, I'm not expecting template accuracy merely sufficient
> to act as an aid to alignment so that images are arranged in an appropriate
> grid.
> Also having now used the Solmeta Pro GPS with 3-axis compass for a couple
> of years it works quite happily for the purpose above.  I'm also quite sure
> that over time accuracy will improve and costs likely fall at the same time.
>
>  --
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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Well try these for size;
http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/IC/HMC105X.pdf
and prices here;
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/947939-sensor-magnetic-3-axis-16-plcc-hmc1053.html
Calibration can be achieved in-situ quite happily, at least for the sort of 
accuracy I need, I'm not expecting template accuracy merely sufficient to 
act as an aid to alignment so that images are arranged in an appropriate 
grid.
Also having now used the Solmeta Pro GPS with 3-axis compass for a couple 
of years it works quite happily for the purpose above.  I'm also quite sure 
that over time accuracy will improve and costs likely fall at the same time.

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

At this point I have done a ton of research on this.

You can't use a compass by itself because it suffers from a lot of 
interference (hard and soft magnetic interference, it's called)

You can use a gyroscope but only for a short time (30 seconds, maybe) and 
after that, it 'drifts' and you get inaccuracies.

you can use all the sensors together, this is called sensor fusion,  and 
that way each sensor sort of helps to calibrate the others. with this you 
can get something reasonably good. But in the end the sensors have to 
actually have been calibrated somehow. The problem is that the sensors you 
get are not calibrated. You can buy sensors that are calibrated, and they 
are *very* expensive. Here is one: 
http://www.vectornav.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=10
 
This sensor also comes with sophisticated software (using a kalman filter, 
and other fancy stuff). I guess it's sensors like this that you might find 
in really critical industrial or military applications.

So to have something like this for your camera, well, it might cost as much 
as your nice DSLR and lens.


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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[kfj]

On 2 Feb., 23:24, Geoff G8DHE  wrote:
> I must be missing something ?

maybe the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic values?

> Yaw as I understand it is the difference between direction of travel and
> direction the device is pointing. As my camera is static when I take a shot
> the sensor and camera always point in the same direction so the amount of
> YAW is always Zero with great precision !

I suppose what is meant here is orientation as a compass would provide
it. If you had a precise compass, you could use it's readings with
successive shots as yaw values, and you'd even gain a reference which
you could use to augment your panorama with artifical vistas or
metadata. Sadly, though, the cheap earth magnetic field sensors I know
of available are

- not very precise
- not foolproof (tilt!)
- sensitive to other magnetic fields

If, on the other hand, you use, like, a gyroscope, you can set it up
in relation to a reference coordinate system. You then receive yaw,
pitch and roll values for every orientation relative to the reference
coordinate system. But such sensors are expensive.

Kay

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

I must be missing something ?
Yaw as I understand it is the difference between direction of travel and 
direction the device is pointing. As my camera is static when I take a shot 
the sensor and camera always point in the same direction so the amount of 
YAW is always Zero with great precision !

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

That's interesting! Pitch and Roll are reasonably easy to acquire.

It's the yaw (heading) that is totally unreliable - basically useless - at 
this point. There is no sensor that exists (that is economically feasible, 
anyway) that can give us this data, in 2012 :(

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

EXIFtools from version 8.75 now fully supports the GPSPitch and GPSRoll 
parameters :-)  
Phil Harvey has now included extraction of the data from devices that 
support the $PTNTHPR sentence.
If you want to use the data you just need to add the GPSPitch and GPSRoll 
fields as described above and in the discussion here at the EXIFtools 
forum
.

Many thanks to Phil Harvey who does a truly excellent job in developing 
EXIFTools which can be downloaded here 
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

Geoff, with properly calibrated sensors and a decent sensor fusion 
algorithm, you should be able to get 0.1º accuracy, I think. But that's the 
expensive stuff.

For cheap uncalibrated sensors without any sensor fusion, the results will 
be bad - 5º or more.


On Monday, January 9, 2012 12:26:32 PM UTC+1, Geoff G8DHE wrote:
>
> Well its never going to be accurate enough to act as a final template, 
> that's to be sure!  The current sensors will give a ±5° which is sufficient 
> to place the image in the rough location, ready for aligning.  But if we 
> don't start he ball rolling then there will never be demand for cheaper 
> more accurate sensors to be provided or used !
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Quality wise, it will not be good enough for stiching, but as starting
values for the estimation process, it should be helpful.

If extended to the mosiac mode where the solution is more ambiguous, it
should help limiting the solution space.And for other photogrammetry
applications it should definitely be helpful, such as for example
Autodesk123D Catch. That generate 3D models (mesh and texture) from
photographs. That solution must calculate camera postion and orientation as
a part of the solution, this problem would get better bundaries with an
initial attitude estimate.

Cheers
/O



2012/1/9 Gerhard Killesreiter 

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 09.01.2012 12:26, schrieb Geoff G8DHE:
> > Well its never going to be accurate enough to act as a final template,
> > that's to be sure!  The current sensors will give a ±5° which is
> sufficient
> > to place the image in the rough location, ready for aligning.  But if we
> > don't start he ball rolling then there will never be demand for cheaper
> > more accurate sensors to be provided or used !
>
>
> I am really wondering if this is worth the effort (regardless whether it
> is +- 5% or +- 1%): Won't it be easier to implement that sort of
> matching in software based on the image data?
>
> Cheers,
>Gerhard
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> =6vrR
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Gerhard Killesreiter]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am 09.01.2012 12:26, schrieb Geoff G8DHE:
> Well its never going to be accurate enough to act as a final template, 
> that's to be sure!  The current sensors will give a ±5° which is sufficient 
> to place the image in the rough location, ready for aligning.  But if we 
> don't start he ball rolling then there will never be demand for cheaper 
> more accurate sensors to be provided or used !


I am really wondering if this is worth the effort (regardless whether it
is +- 5% or +- 1%): Won't it be easier to implement that sort of
matching in software based on the image data?

Cheers,
Gerhard
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Well its never going to be accurate enough to act as a final template, 
that's to be sure!  The current sensors will give a ±5° which is sufficient 
to place the image in the rough location, ready for aligning.  But if we 
don't start he ball rolling then there will never be demand for cheaper 
more accurate sensors to be provided or used !

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Well the basics are there, until we get a few programs able to use the info 
then there isn't much more we can do.  As previous, PTGui and P2VR have 
added it to there to-do lists, but I doubt that it will be that high in 
priority terms at the moment, its the normal Chicken or Egg first problem 
;-)  
I've checked out getting the data out from the Solmeta Pro log file, no 
major problem to embed into the Exif, and speaking with the Phil Harvey of 
Exif Tool on the support forum he has no problem including/processing the 
data but again until it is either common requirement or part of the 
standard it won't have any great priority on the to-do list there either 
  But to be honest that is what I expected when I started asking for 
the facility a while back, we just need to build the ground swell.

I wonder what progress your making Jeff (Martin) on dedicated hardware ?

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Naked Robot]

I've done quite a bit of research into sensors at it seems that they just 
aren't accurate enough.

Only if you spend $500 on a sensor that has been very precisely calibrated 
will you get the accuracy I was hoping for.

Those other cheap ones won't be calibrated and will be quite useless. A 
couple degrees accuracy or even less maybe.

So, until I have $500 to spare on a very fancy IMU, I think this project is 
dead.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

How are you doing with the Attitude in EXIF-experiments?

Cheers
/O

2011/12/11 Geoff G8DHE 

> The Solmeta refers to it as Tilt, aircraft refer to it as Pitch - take
> your pick ;-)  No real preference to be honest!
>
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/O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Karmadillo]

True, however even on the iPhone where there are lots and lots of
camera apps, no-one has yet produced one that records inclination /
attitude data into the EXIF for the photo. EXIF supports arbitrary
data, and Apps like Clinometer demonstrate that the phone sensors
produce this data, so it is technically possible.

So it would seem that there is not sufficient demand for such a
feature.

On Dec 6, 8:24 pm, Oskar Sander  wrote:
> Right, I was going to say the same. Most iphone and andorid phone has this
> capability, soon every little gadget will too. The camera producers need to
> se the benefit though.   Which I think instant panorama, 3D application etc
> would be.
>
> With GPS there are add ons to e.g. Lightroom that correlates at GPS track
> with photo timestamp and add position in metadata.   This electronic
> tripod/attitude could work the same.
>
> Cheers
> /O
>
> 2011/12/6 Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > HI Kay,
>
> > On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
> > A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
>
> >> also get 'smartcameras'.
>
> > I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they"
> > (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they should
> > ;)
>
> >> When I look at the computing capacity of my
> >> camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
> >> contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
> >> manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>
> > Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so
> > little being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even open
> > up the camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(
>
> >> I hope open firmware takes off.
>
> >> GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
> >> because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
> >> of the general public as a useful feature.
>
> > Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of
> > the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still
> > that's a pretty lame excuse.
>
> >> Inclinometer data might be
> >> sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
> >> since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
> >> the route for these devices into cameras.
>
> >> Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
> >> you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
> >> only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
> >> time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
> >> overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
> >> those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
> >> are much cheaper, as well :)
>
> > That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors
> > (magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an iphone/android
> > app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on
> > your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Hugin and other free panoramic software" group.
> > A list of frequently asked questions is available at:
> >http://wiki.panotools.org/Hugin_FAQ
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> --
> /O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Dave]

Ah, I see, you want to use the headphone lead button to trigger both
the dslr and data logging on the phone.

These are the sources I used to make the circuit. I'm still waiting
for a solid state relay in the post so haven't tested that part yet.

Initial idea and circuit info:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/diyphotographynet/discuss/72157623832533903/
http://i40.tinypic.com/5181w6.jpg

However the above circuit didn't work first time for me so I kept
exploring...

Good explanation of the circuit we need (monostable 55 timer), also
explains how to use different resistor/capacitor combinations to
change the length of the output signal:
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/555timer.htm#monostable

Breakdown of the HTD headphone remote:
http://www.george-smart.co.uk/wiki/HTC_Headphones

I basically ended up cutting off the existing remote, removing the
left and right audio channel wires and putting a 33k resistor across
the remaining two wires to pretend the mic is still in place. When you
short the circuit using a switch, relay etc the sudden decrease in
resistance is what tells android the media button has been depressed.

Later this week I should get a chance to post pictures and a full
schematic for the circuit. In the meantime hope this helps.

I haven't looked into using the shutter connection as this isn't what
I'm after, however I'm sure it's possible. If your using the hotshoe
then it should be the all makes of camera, basically use the center
large round pin and the outer metal frame that the flash unit slides
into as your trigger connections.

As the circuit is designed at the moment it requires 4.5v+ or 3 aaa/aa
batteries to power it, so I've bought a second hand broken flash unit
that takes 4aaa batteries which should also be able to house the phone
securely once I've modified it.

If anyone gives this a go let me know how you get on.

Dave

On Dec 12, 12:11 pm, Robert Lesac  wrote:
> On 12.12.2011. 11:41, Dave wrote:
>
> > As I understand it the shutter release port can only be used to
> > trigger the shutter using an external device and not the other way
> > round. I assumed the hot shoe was the only connection I could use to
> > detect when the shutter button was depressed on the camera.
>
> Well that was the point, to use the phone as a trigger :)
> Implement bracketing and that's about it, a perfect app for panography.
> For interfacing, go for Canon and Nikon compatibility, covers the
> majority of users.
> You just need to post a wiring diagram for different cables.
>
> Hmm, how about a hacked sport armband to mount the phone on the camera?
> Like 
> this:http://media04-ak.vivastreet.com/classifieds/ec/0/38348746/large/1.jp...
>
> > On Dec 12, 10:00 am, Robert Lesac  wrote:
> >> On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:
> >>> Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
> >>> dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
> >>> headphone lead whenever a photo is taken
>
> >> Very neat, and I think it's the way forward. A lot of us have
> >> smartphones so all we need is a decent app and a cable/cable schematics.
> >> Though I'd rather have the phone connected to the shutter release port.
>
> --
>
> Pano/VR/Gigapixel photography:http://robertlesac.com

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Robert Lesac]

On 12.12.2011. 11:41, Dave wrote:

As I understand it the shutter release port can only be used to
trigger the shutter using an external device and not the other way
round. I assumed the hot shoe was the only connection I could use to
detect when the shutter button was depressed on the camera.


Well that was the point, to use the phone as a trigger :)
Implement bracketing and that's about it, a perfect app for panography.
For interfacing, go for Canon and Nikon compatibility, covers the 
majority of users.

You just need to post a wiring diagram for different cables.

Hmm, how about a hacked sport armband to mount the phone on the camera? 
Like this: 
http://media04-ak.vivastreet.com/classifieds/ec/0/38348746/large/1.jpg?dt=596cb99e9f652f44ceb6c2765c1792fc





On Dec 12, 10:00 am, Robert Lesac  wrote:

On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:

Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
headphone lead whenever a photo is taken


Very neat, and I think it's the way forward. A lot of us have
smartphones so all we need is a decent app and a cable/cable schematics.
Though I'd rather have the phone connected to the shutter release port.



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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Dave]

As I understand it the shutter release port can only be used to
trigger the shutter using an external device and not the other way
round. I assumed the hot shoe was the only connection I could use to
detect when the shutter button was depressed on the camera.

On Dec 12, 10:00 am, Robert Lesac  wrote:
> On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:
>
> > using my android phone instead. Although I haven't yet tested whether
> > the camera interferes with the phone's sensors I believe the heading,
> > pitch, roll etc readings should be accurate enough for my purposes.
>
> > To reduce the chance of the wrong data sensor reading instance being
> > matched to the wrong photo I decided not to go down the path of
> > recording data all the time and trying to match it to photos after
> > using the time stamp. Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
> > dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
> > headphone lead whenever a photo is taken
>
> Very neat, and I think it's the way forward. A lot of us have
> smartphones so all we need is a decent app and a cable/cable schematics.
> Though I'd rather have the phone connected to the shutter release port.
>
> --
>
> Pano/VR/Gigapixel photography:http://robertlesac.com

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Dave]

Looks interesting, I wonder if the phone has to be attached to the
camera to get an accurate heading recording or if there's another
compass in the blueslr dongle.

On Dec 12, 10:05 am, Robert Lesac  wrote:
> On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:
>
> > Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
> > dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
> > headphone lead whenever a photo is taken,
>
> How about this:http://eu.blueslr.com/also?
> It's a bit expensive and the app lacks features, but the dongle lets you
> do whatever.
>
> --
>
> Pano/VR/Gigapixel photography:http://robertlesac.com

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Robert Lesac]

On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:

Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
headphone lead whenever a photo is taken,


How about this: http://eu.blueslr.com/ also?
It's a bit expensive and the app lacks features, but the dongle lets you 
do whatever.



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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Robert Lesac]

On 12.12.2011. 10:47, Dave wrote:

using my android phone instead. Although I haven't yet tested whether
the camera interferes with the phone's sensors I believe the heading,
pitch, roll etc readings should be accurate enough for my purposes.

To reduce the chance of the wrong data sensor reading instance being
matched to the wrong photo I decided not to go down the path of
recording data all the time and trying to match it to photos after
using the time stamp. Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
headphone lead whenever a photo is taken



Very neat, and I think it's the way forward. A lot of us have 
smartphones so all we need is a decent app and a cable/cable schematics.

Though I'd rather have the phone connected to the shutter release port.

--

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Dave]

I wanted to do something similar but in the end decided all the
sensors where too expensive for my budget so started thinking about
using my android phone instead. Although I haven't yet tested whether
the camera interferes with the phone's sensors I believe the heading,
pitch, roll etc readings should be accurate enough for my purposes.

To reduce the chance of the wrong data sensor reading instance being
matched to the wrong photo I decided not to go down the path of
recording data all the time and trying to match it to photos after
using the time stamp. Instead I've built a circuit that uses my canon
dslr flash hot shoe to trigger the media button on my android
headphone lead whenever a photo is taken, which in turn triggers an
android app to record the sensor readings at that moment. The app I'm
using is a special version of AndroSensor that the author of kindly
customised for this purpose.

It's early stages, i.e. it's still a pile of wires and components on
my desk, but it works so far. Later this week I'm going to mount it
all on the camera and give it a proper test. Unfortunately the phone
doesn't sense Barometric Pressure (yet) but it's a good start. It does
however record interesting things such as noise levels. Of course
battery life could be a problem if you're out shooting all day,
another aspect I need to test and report on.

I'm glad I came across this thread as the next step is to find a way
to attach all this extra data to photos. XMP, kml, exif I still
need to do my research to be honest.

Sometime this week I'll post photos and circuit diagrams (it's pretty
basic electronics) in case anyone wants to do something similar.

Cheers
Dave



On Dec 7, 11:15 am, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok,
>
> I think I'm going to go ahead and build this thing:
>
> hotshoe-mounted attitude logger for Nikon SLR
> using gyroscope, accelerometer, magnetometer, it will write the Heading,
> Pitch, and Roll of each photo into the exif data as the photo is shot.
>
> Now, can anyone recommend which sensor device should be used?
>
> This one seems suitable:
> store.ckdevices.com/products/Mongoose-9DoF-IMU-with-Barometric-Pressure-Sen 
> sor-.html
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Jeffrey

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

The Solmeta refers to it as Tilt, aircraft refer to it as Pitch - take your 
pick ;-)  No real preference to be honest!

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Cool!  Just a question, why tilt and not just pitch?  Keep us posted.

Cheers
/O

2011/12/7 Geoff G8DHE 

> OK, just been trying out the idea of creating a couple of UserDefined
> fields in ExifTools and it seems to work OK;
> I created GPSRoll and GPSTilt within the GPS section of Exif and given
> them TagID's high up in the range so that they unlikely to conflict with
> any other added fields in the future.
> One thing that needs to be noted we need a "standard"  for the way that
> the values are shown i.e. What is +ve value in terms of rotation so I've
> used the Aircraft notation for Roll and Pitch/Tilt see
> http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/rotations.html
> The camera lens pointing downwards would be -ve and pointing Upwards would
> be +ve, the Roll is +ve when looking from behind the camera and the camera
> is tilted in a Clockwise direction.
> The necessary additions to any ".ExifTool_config" file are;
>
> %Image::ExifTool::UserDefined = (
>> 'Image::ExifTool::GPS::Main' => {
>> 0xd000 => {
>> Name => 'GPSTilt',
>> Writable => 'rational64s',
>> WriteGroup => 'GPS',
>> },
>> # add more user-defined EXIF tags here...
>> 0xd001 => {
>> Name => 'GPSRoll',
>> Writable => 'rational64s',
>> WriteGroup => 'GPS',
>> },
>> },
>> );
>> 1; # end
>>
>> See here for where to place the file
> http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/config.html
> The results are like this;
> GPS Version ID  : 2.2.0.0
> GPS Altitude Ref: Above Sea Level
> GPS Time Stamp  : 17:15:18
> GPS Img Direction Ref   : Magnetic North
> GPS Img Direction   : 265.23
> GPS Map Datum   : WGS-84
> GPS Dest Latitude Ref   : North
> GPS Dest Latitude   : 50 deg 49' 40.77"
> GPS Dest Longitude Ref  : West
> GPS Dest Longitude  : 0 deg 22' 58.37"
> GPS Date Stamp  : 2011:12:05
> GPS Tilt: -45.3
> GPS Roll: 3.23
>
> To display the results you need to add the -u flag to ExifTools to display
> the unknown fields like "Exiftools -k -u -g dsc0029.jpg"
> Example file used above is attached.
> The ExifTool GUI program doesn't use the -u flag either when obtaining
> data from files, so I have asked in the ExifTools forum if that might be a
> possibility in the future.
>
> No doubt that there might be need for changes so any thoughts let me know
> and we can see what might need changing 
>
>
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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

And yes it is now working under ExifTools GUI !  Nor do you need the -u 
flag at the commandline :-)
Just make sure that if you have Geosetter installed that you don't have two 
versions of ExifTools installed  you might be using the wrong copy ... 
:-( Oops

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[mgg]

GPS in phones is also "assisted" in that is gets rough location data
from the cell tower and uses that with GPS data.  A camera would need
to work without it - though it isn't all that hard considering that
you can get tiny "puck" GPS to USB devices today.  I expect it is more
about battery and keeping the cost down.  I'd love to see bluetooth in
the cameras and a few APPs to go on smart phones.  You could send GPS
to the camera or send EXIF data to the phone that you match up with
the phone's GPS data and any txt or audio notes you'd like to take.
Inclinometer data would be easy if phone is mounted to camera or near
camera.  Compass data though would be highly suspect.   Some ability
to send a thumbnail to the phone would be nice as well both to match
up with the exif but could also then be sent via email or SMS.

Of course bluetooth takes power too - but if you only used it to send
data to the phone - it would be pretty silent most of the time.

me


On Dec 6, 3:38 am, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> HI Kay,
>
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
>
> A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
>
> > also get 'smartcameras'.
>
> I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they"
> (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they should
> ;)
>
> > When I look at the computing capacity of my
> > camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
> > contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
> > manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>
> Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so little
> being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even open up the
> camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(
>
> > I hope open firmware takes off.
>
> > GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
> > because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
> > of the general public as a useful feature.
>
> Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of
> the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still
> that's a pretty lame excuse.
>
> > Inclinometer data might be
> > sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
> > since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
> > the route for these devices into cameras.
>
> > Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
> > you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
> > only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
> > time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
> > overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
> > those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
> > are much cheaper, as well :)
>
> That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors
> (magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an iphone/android
> app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on
> your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Its just a serial data link using at least 4800 Baud, with NEMA sentences 
as from any GPS unit see this project for some 
http://www.petermillerphoto.com/nikongps/nikongps2.html . Watch out for the 
non-standard levels, the camera isn't happy working with a 3.3 volt signal 
it expects 5 volts on the Tx line.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Btw, is there an SDK for how to interface the camera?

/O

2011/12/7 Oskar Sander 

> Good that I could incite some action ;-)
>
> That board looks interesting.
>
> Look at:
>
> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10736
>
> http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9  (which i considered as i want logging to
> memory card)
>
> Cheers
> O
>
>
> 2011/12/7 Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com>
>
>>
>> Ok,
>>
>> I think I'm going to go ahead and build this thing:
>>
>> hotshoe-mounted attitude logger for Nikon SLR
>> using gyroscope, accelerometer, magnetometer, it will write the Heading,
>> Pitch, and Roll of each photo into the exif data as the photo is shot.
>>
>> Now, can anyone recommend which sensor device should be used?
>>
>> This one seems suitable:
>> store.ckdevices.com/products/Mongoose-9DoF-IMU-with-Barometric-Pressure-Sensor-.html
>>
>> Any other suggestions?
>>
>> Jeffrey
>>
>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> /O
>



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/O

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Good that I could incite some action ;-)

That board looks interesting.

Look at:

http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10736

http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9  (which i considered as i want logging to
memory card)

Cheers
O

2011/12/7 Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com>

>
> Ok,
>
> I think I'm going to go ahead and build this thing:
>
> hotshoe-mounted attitude logger for Nikon SLR
> using gyroscope, accelerometer, magnetometer, it will write the Heading,
> Pitch, and Roll of each photo into the exif data as the photo is shot.
>
> Now, can anyone recommend which sensor device should be used?
>
> This one seems suitable:
> store.ckdevices.com/products/Mongoose-9DoF-IMU-with-Barometric-Pressure-Sensor-.html
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Jeffrey
>
>  --
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/O

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

 
Ok, 

I think I'm going to go ahead and build this thing:

hotshoe-mounted attitude logger for Nikon SLR
using gyroscope, accelerometer, magnetometer, it will write the Heading, 
Pitch, and Roll of each photo into the exif data as the photo is shot.

Now, can anyone recommend which sensor device should be used?

This one seems suitable: 
store.ckdevices.com/products/Mongoose-9DoF-IMU-with-Barometric-Pressure-Sensor-.html

Any other suggestions?

Jeffrey

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[kfj]

On 7 Dez., 08:04, Gnome Nomad  wrote:

> One difference between compact P&S cams and DSLR when it comes to
> battery life: compact cams use a lot less juice. They're only moving a
> tiny little lens around, powering a tiny little chip and not having to
> flip a frame-sized mirror out of the way to take a picture.

This isn't necessarily true:

- you can easily work a DSLR without the monitor on most of the time.
Try that with a P&S

- DSLRs do not have to focus via the main sensor, so they don't need
processing power for that (and more power for the 'pumping' until the
correct focus is found')

- you zoom DSLRs manually, while P&Ss use a motor for the purpose

- P&Ss usually keep the lens inside the body and have to move it out
and back in on every power on/off

I used a P&S and routinely took spare batteries because they ran out
quite quickly. When I got a DSLR, I bought some spare batteries right
away, just to find out that I seldom need them (admittedly they're a
bit fatter).

> So while a compact might have the battery life to support built-in GPS,
> I'd really rather have my DSLR use its battery taking quality pictures.

you make it sound as if just having a GPS unit uses power. The good
thing about GPS units in this respect is that you can actually turn
them off ;-)

Kay

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Gnome Nomad]

One difference between compact P&S cams and DSLR when it comes to 
battery life: compact cams use a lot less juice. They're only moving a 
tiny little lens around, powering a tiny little chip and not having to 
flip a frame-sized mirror out of the way to take a picture.


So while a compact might have the battery life to support built-in GPS, 
I'd really rather have my DSLR use its battery taking quality pictures.


Oskar Sander wrote:
Right, I was going to say the same. Most iphone and andorid phone has 
this capability, soon every little gadget will too. The camera producers 
need to se the benefit though.   Which I think instant panorama,


I've seen that on compact cameras, and iPhone. The pictures look great 
on the little displays. They don't look very good at full size.


3D 
application etc would be.


With GPS there are add ons to e.g. Lightroom that correlates at GPS 
track with photo timestamp and add position in metadata.   This 
electronic tripod/attitude could work the same.


Cheers
/O

2011/12/6 Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com >

HI Kay,


On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we

also get 'smartcameras'.


I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that
"they" (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you
think they should ;)

 


When I look at the computing capacity of my
camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...


Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so
little being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't
even open up the camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(


 


I hope open firmware takes off.

GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
of the general public as a useful feature.


Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is
one of the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more
cameras. But still that's a pretty lame excuse.
 


Inclinometer data might be
sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
the route for these devices into cameras.

Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device
which
only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small
sensors like
those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
are much cheaper, as well :)


That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors
(magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an
iphone/android app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to
stick the phone on your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))


--
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gnomeno...@gmail.com
wandering the landscape of god
http://www.cafepress.com/otherend/

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Well it should be possible the Exif ver. 2.3 spec 
http://www.cipa.jp/english/hyoujunka/kikaku/pdf/DC-008-2010_E.pdf
Specifys that the GPS Altitude record is a Rational number which is two 
32bit unsigned integers (numerator & denominator).
However your going to need to strip those two values out of the Altitude 
field before any other program touches the data and overwrites the Altitude 
information.
I'm still inclined to go with using the Logger info from the Solmeta Pro 
where the $PTNTHPR sentences provide the heading, pitch, and rollinformation in 
one nice easy format!

> $GPRMC,133656.000,A,5049.6748,N,00022.9357,W,1.73,145.09,030811,,,E*76
> $PTNTHPR,218.9,N,-7.9,N,-3.2,N,A*19
> $GPGGA,133700.000,5049.6744,N,00022.9365,W,1,03,10.6,24.9,M,47.1,M,,*41
> $GPRMC,133659.000,A,5049.6734,N,00022.9377,W,1.77,198.54,030811,,,A*78
> $PTNTHPR,246.4,N,-26.0,N,4.6,N,A*0B
> $GPGGA,133747.109,5049.7042,N,00022.9503,W,1,03,10.0,30.4,M,47.1,M,,*42
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[kfj]

On 6 Dez., 10:38, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:

> > GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
> > because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
> > of the general public as a useful feature.
>
> Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of
> the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still
> that's a pretty lame excuse.

Handheld GPS devices show that receiving GPS data doesn't need to
consume much power. My garmin can operate 20 hours on two AA NiMH
cells, and that's with it recording my track and displaying
everything.

BTW - GPS comes with extremely precise knowledge of the time - after
all the GPS satellites carry atomic clocks and the GPS devices sync
with them - time is at the basis of finding your position with a GPS.
If the GPS is inside the camera (and the camera uses the GPS's time -
I wouldn't put it beyond the camera makers to fail to do so) all
imprecise timing is a thing of the past. On top of that, radio time
signals are sent out to synchronize radio controlled watches, and
hardware to receive the signals is cheap. Yet again it's not that the
technology isn't there, it's just that it isn't used.

Kay

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[kfj]

On 6 Dez., 16:37, Geoff G8DHE  wrote:

> You need to calibrate any form of compass !  The Solmeta device requires
> that you put it in calibrate mode, and then twist the unit along all 3-axis
> twice so that it can record the maximum external field strengths, by
> recording the changes rather than measuring the static fields created by
> the camera/head/device.  The accuracy and precision even after calibration
> is not that high 5° is good.  Unless you go for some very expensive sensors.

My (Garmin etrex hcx) GPS has a compass, but it's not too precise,
needs calibration, and only produces correct data if the device is
held level (!) and there are no magnetic fields around. One would wish
for something better, but I'm not sure they exist. On the other hand,
the compass is the thing needed least for a panorama - the
inclinometer would be much more useful and it should work no matter
what.

Kay

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

I think the main issue is WRITING the data into the nikon camera. it 
supports only GPS logging, AFAIK and it might not allow writing to some 
other exif field. 

that's why i suggested an ugly hack, writing the position info into the gps 
/ altitude fields.

does anyone know if a better solution - writing into some other exif field 
- will be possible in nikon cameras?

as for using some other camera - i don't think it's possible. AFAIK only 
nikon allows tethered GPS loggers to write to the memory card while 
shooting. canon doesn't allow it

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[JohnPW]

Yup.
Calibration makes up for any *stationary* interfering objects which is
why you can have a very accurate fixed compass on a ship or vehicle.
So the limitation Geoff points out is mostly a result of the sensor.
However, all the tripod and parts of the head are not "stationary"
relative to the panning camera. These parts also tend not to be
symmetrical and the actual sensor is unlikely to be at the npp (which
would be the center of symmetry.) Perhaps the effect is minimal
(depending on the rig?) or it could be that 5º is about as good as it
might get, without special attention to the design of the whole rig,
whatever the quality of the sensors.

On Dec 6, 9:37 am, Geoff G8DHE  wrote:
> > in terms of the compass i've noticed using my analog compass that i
> > can't hold it too close to my camera or it is wrong. so i wonder how an
> > electronic compass will be able to deal with that.
>
> You need to calibrate any form of compass !  The Solmeta device requires
> that you put it in calibrate mode, and then twist the unit along all 3-axis
> twice so that it can record the maximum external field strengths, by
> recording the changes rather than measuring the static fields created by
> the camera/head/device.  The accuracy and precision even after calibration
> is not that high 5° is good.  Unless you go for some very expensive sensors.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

Yes that's right and the .ExifTool_config allows you to create the 
definition for a new tag within your system so that it can be written.  
Unknown Tags can be extracted by ExifTool, so that's not a problem.
Reusing other Tags such as Altitude will mean that the data will be 
overwritten if you use other geotagging programs that use the field, say 
you used Geosetter to locate the image it would overwrite the Altitude 
info. and you would loose that data you carefully pushed into it!
Much better to define a new field, for the info now, then as and when a new 
Exif spec appears with what we want in it we can use ExifTool to move the 
data from our own defined field to the "real" one.
The major problem will be getting cameras to write non-standard info that 
there not expecting :-(  Much better to go via the Logging route and then 
attach the new data into our custom field offline where it won't be over 
written.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/12/6, Geoff G8DHE :
> We could also use EXIF Tools facility to define and code our own Custom
> fields ?  See http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/config.html

I always thought that Exif tags/fields started with pre-defined
identifiers. You could use one of the unused values, but you'd risk
that other applications do the same. Or am I missing something?

-- 
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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

We could also use EXIF Tools facility to define and code our own Custom 
fields ?  See http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/config.html

Joost is also building in the ability to use the GPSImageDirection field 
into PTGui and I have suggested that he allow for Tilt and Roll as well, 
likewise Thomas is building in support for use within Pano2vr.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

> in terms of the compass i've noticed using my analog compass that i 
> can't hold it too close to my camera or it is wrong. so i wonder how an 
> electronic compass will be able to deal with that.
>
 
You need to calibrate any form of compass !  The Solmeta device requires 
that you put it in calibrate mode, and then twist the unit along all 3-axis 
twice so that it can record the maximum external field strengths, by 
recording the changes rather than measuring the static fields created by 
the camera/head/device.  The accuracy and precision even after calibration 
is not that high 5° is good.  Unless you go for some very expensive sensors.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Carl von Einem]

Jeffrey Martin schrieb am 06.12.11 15:35:


That leaves only the pitch/roll data - We could probably stick this in
the "altitude" field, since the altitude data is always totally wrong
and useless anyway :)


There is usually a huge difference between the height values coming from 
the GPS data and the barometric output (my Garmin has both). So maybe a 
barometric sensor is also available...


Carl

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

Good find, Geoff!

Ok, so it looks like the heading can be written into the GPS exif data 
without any hack?

That leaves only the pitch/roll data - We could probably stick this in the 
"altitude" field, since the altitude data is always totally wrong and 
useless anyway :)


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

XMP cannot be written inside the camera during shooting, I guess.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:33:19 PM UTC+1, davitof wrote:
>
> What about using XMP instead of EXIF? I guess XMP is more open to
> user-defined data.
>
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Carl von Einem]

Jeffrey Martin schrieb am 06.12.11 14:27:

I was thinking more about this, and whether an external logger with sync
(like you do with gps) would be possible


One other option that doesn't directly write data in the images EXIF 
metadata would be a timestamp for the external logger via the camera's 
flash sync contact. A rough time synchronisation of the externally 
logged data with the camera could be done with a simple display on your 
device showing the current 'hhmmss' value that just needs be 
photographed once in a while. Correct the EXIF timestamp with a simple 
exiftool argument later.



and the answer is definitely NO - GPS is very course, and in practical
purposes, you can have the sync off by a few seconds and the photos will
still have correct location data. not the case with the position of the
camera in space. and there is no way you can synchronize a non-tethered
device within 1/100 of a second or whatever it takes to correctly
synchronize such data.

so a device like this will have to be tethered.

in terms of the compass i've noticed using my analog compass that i
can't hold it too close to my camera or it is wrong. so i wonder how an
electronic compass will be able to deal with that.


I think I sometimes see compass errors when I get too close to the 
camera / pano head with my Garmin Oregon. But with a sensor you could 
use some kind of "antenna" that provides the necessary distance.



finally, in terms of custom exif data if we are to build this for
nikon, we'll need to hack the position data inside the exif data. i
don't think there will be any other way. we'll see ;)


The exiftool website has some more information, e.g. here 




now, what nikon slr should i buy? i've been a canon guy up till now :(


I think a lot of people are waiting for the D-700 successor, usually 
referred to as D-800. Still the D-700 seems to be a trustworthy full 
frame dslr while the D-300s is the current DX (= 1.5 crop factor) 
equivalent. I use a D-300.

You'll love the bracketing feature :-)

Cheers,
Carl

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

What about using XMP instead of EXIF? I guess XMP is more open to
user-defined data.

2011/12/6, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com>:
> I was thinking more about this, and whether an external logger with sync
> (like you do with gps) would be possible
>
> and the answer is definitely NO - GPS is very course, and in practical
> purposes, you can have the sync off by a few seconds and the photos will
> still have correct location data. not the case with the position of the
> camera in space. and there is no way you can synchronize a non-tethered
> device within 1/100 of a second or whatever it takes to correctly
> synchronize such data.
>
> so a device like this will have to be tethered.
>
> in terms of the compass i've noticed using my analog compass that i
> can't hold it too close to my camera or it is wrong. so i wonder how an
> electronic compass will be able to deal with that.
>
> finally, in terms of custom exif data if we are to build this for
> nikon, we'll need to hack the position data inside the exif data.  i don't
> think there will be any other way. we'll see ;)
>
> now, what nikon slr should i buy? i've been a canon guy up till now :(
>
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:24:10 AM UTC+1, Oskar Sander wrote:
>>
>> Right, I was going to say the same. Most iphone and andorid phone has this
>>
>> capability, soon every little gadget will too. The camera producers need
>> to
>> se the benefit though.   Which I think instant panorama, 3D application
>> etc
>> would be.
>>
>> With GPS there are add ons to e.g. Lightroom that correlates at GPS track
>> with photo timestamp and add position in metadata.   This electronic
>> tripod/attitude could work the same.
>>
>> Cheers
>> /O
>>
>> 2011/12/6 Jeffrey Martin <360c...@gmail.com>
>>
>>> HI Kay,
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
>>> A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
>>>
 also get 'smartcameras'.

>>>
>>> I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they"
>>>
>>> (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they
>>> should
>>> ;)
>>>
 When I look at the computing capacity of my
 camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
 contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
 manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>>>
>>> Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so
>>> little being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even
>>> open
>>> up the camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(
>>>
 I hope open firmware takes off.

 GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
 because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
 of the general public as a useful feature.
>>>
>>> Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of
>>> the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still
>>> that's a pretty lame excuse.
>>>
 Inclinometer data might be
 sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
 since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
 the route for these devices into cameras.

 Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
 you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
 only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
 time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
 overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
 those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
 are much cheaper, as well :)
>>>
>>> That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors
>>> (magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an
>>> iphone/android
>>> app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on
>>> your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))

-- 
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » -
http://www.april.org

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

I was thinking more about this, and whether an external logger with sync 
(like you do with gps) would be possible

and the answer is definitely NO - GPS is very course, and in practical 
purposes, you can have the sync off by a few seconds and the photos will 
still have correct location data. not the case with the position of the 
camera in space. and there is no way you can synchronize a non-tethered 
device within 1/100 of a second or whatever it takes to correctly 
synchronize such data. 

so a device like this will have to be tethered.

in terms of the compass i've noticed using my analog compass that i 
can't hold it too close to my camera or it is wrong. so i wonder how an 
electronic compass will be able to deal with that.

finally, in terms of custom exif data if we are to build this for 
nikon, we'll need to hack the position data inside the exif data.  i don't 
think there will be any other way. we'll see ;)

now, what nikon slr should i buy? i've been a canon guy up till now :(


On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:24:10 AM UTC+1, Oskar Sander wrote:
>
> Right, I was going to say the same. Most iphone and andorid phone has this 
> capability, soon every little gadget will too. The camera producers need to 
> se the benefit though.   Which I think instant panorama, 3D application etc 
> would be.
>
> With GPS there are add ons to e.g. Lightroom that correlates at GPS track 
> with photo timestamp and add position in metadata.   This electronic 
> tripod/attitude could work the same.
>
> Cheers
> /O
>
> 2011/12/6 Jeffrey Martin <360c...@gmail.com>
>
>> HI Kay,
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
>> A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
>>
>>> also get 'smartcameras'.
>>>
>>
>> I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they" 
>> (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they should 
>> ;)
>>
>>  
>>
>>> When I look at the computing capacity of my
>>> camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
>>> contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
>>> manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>>>
>>
>> Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so 
>> little being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even open 
>> up the camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>> I hope open firmware takes off.
>>>
>>> GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
>>> because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
>>> of the general public as a useful feature. 
>>>
>>
>> Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of 
>> the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still 
>> that's a pretty lame excuse.
>>  
>>
>>> Inclinometer data might be
>>> sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
>>> since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
>>> the route for these devices into cameras.
>>>
>>> Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
>>> you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
>>> only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
>>> time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
>>> overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
>>> those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
>>> are much cheaper, as well :)
>>>
>>
>> That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors 
>> (magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an iphone/android 
>> app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on 
>> your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))
>>  
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Hugin and other free panoramic software" group.
>> A list of frequently asked questions is available at: 
>> http://wiki.panotools.org/Hugin_FAQ
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>> hugin-ptx+...@googlegroups.com
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> /O
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Geoff G8DHE]

The Solmeta Pro GPS unit 
does actually measure all these parameters but doesn't record the Tilt 
or Roll as currently there are no standard EXIF fields for this data, a 
custom set would need to be defined.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Right, I was going to say the same. Most iphone and andorid phone has this
capability, soon every little gadget will too. The camera producers need to
se the benefit though.   Which I think instant panorama, 3D application etc
would be.

With GPS there are add ons to e.g. Lightroom that correlates at GPS track
with photo timestamp and add position in metadata.   This electronic
tripod/attitude could work the same.

Cheers
/O

2011/12/6 Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com>

> HI Kay,
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
> A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
>
>> also get 'smartcameras'.
>>
>
> I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they"
> (canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they should
> ;)
>
>
>
>> When I look at the computing capacity of my
>> camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
>> contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
>> manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>>
>
> Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so
> little being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even open
> up the camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(
>
>
>
>
>> I hope open firmware takes off.
>>
>> GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
>> because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
>> of the general public as a useful feature.
>>
>
> Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of
> the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still
> that's a pretty lame excuse.
>
>
>> Inclinometer data might be
>> sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
>> since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
>> the route for these devices into cameras.
>>
>> Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
>> you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
>> only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
>> time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
>> overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
>> those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
>> are much cheaper, as well :)
>>
>
> That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors
> (magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an iphone/android
> app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on
> your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Hugin and other free panoramic software" group.
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-- 
/O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

HI Kay,

On Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:52:59 AM UTC+1, kfj wrote:
A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we

> also get 'smartcameras'.
>

I have very little hope at this point. Or, you could consider that "they" 
(canon, nikon, etc.) might do it, 5 or 10 years after you think they should 
;)

 

> When I look at the computing capacity of my
> camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
> contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
> manipulate, I feel cheated somehow...
>

Totally. It is outrageous in fact. There is so much possible, and so little 
being done, in the cameras. It is a shame. And they can't even open up the 
camera to allow user scripting. WTF? :(


 

> I hope open firmware takes off.
>
> GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
> because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
> of the general public as a useful feature. 
>

Well, there is still the problem of battery life. I think this is one of 
the biggest factors about why there isn't GPS in more cameras. But still 
that's a pretty lame excuse.
 

> Inclinometer data might be
> sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
> since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
> the route for these devices into cameras.
>
> Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
> you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
> only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
> time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
> overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
> those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
> are much cheaper, as well :)
>

That's a good point. It's true that the phones have the same sensors 
(magnetometer, accelerometer, gyroscope). You could make an iphone/android 
app to do the same thing.Trouble is of course, how to stick the phone on 
your camera's flash hot-shoe? :-)))

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/12/6, kfj <_...@yahoo.com>:
>
>
> On 5 Dez., 17:17, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I like this idea so much, that I continued doing a bit of research on
>> whether it's possible.
>>
>> I think it might be.
>
>> could the same be done with this
>> position-ometer?http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9
>> it would be so cool!
>
> A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
> also get 'smartcameras'. When I look at the computing capacity of my
> camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
> contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
> manipulate, I feel cheated somehow... I hope open firmware takes off.

For those who have a Canon compact or bridge, this
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK is a proof that the hardware is able
to do much more than we usually think. I use it in my S5 and it works.

-- 
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » -
http://www.april.org

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[kfj]

On 5 Dez., 17:17, Jeffrey Martin <360cit...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I like this idea so much, that I continued doing a bit of research on
> whether it's possible.
>
> I think it might be.

> could the same be done with this position-ometer?http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9
> it would be so cool!

A few years ago we had phones. Now we have smartphones. Let's hope we
also get 'smartcameras'. When I look at the computing capacity of my
camera (as revealed by the quite sophisticated image processing) and
contrast that to the meagre essentials my firmware allows me to
manipulate, I feel cheated somehow... I hope open firmware takes off.

GPS has already made it's way into compact cameras, quite probably
because geotagging can instantly be recognized by a significant part
of the general public as a useful feature. Inclinometer data might be
sold to the public as an aid to automatically level the horizon, and
since that is one of the commonest photographic mistakes it might be
the route for these devices into cameras.

Mind you, probably into compact cameras - and if you have a DSLR
you'll be asked to fork out 500$ for some bulky stick-on device which
only works with the top of the range and drains your battery in no
time. The device you dream of sticking to your camera seems like
overkill to me. Nice-to-have, but really one of the small sensors like
those inside a smartphone would do the trick well enough - and they
are much cheaper, as well :)

Kay

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

I like this idea so much, that I continued doing a bit of research on 
whether it's possible.

I think it might be.

anyway, people HAVE built a homebrew GPS device to connect to nikon SLR

http://grink.com/2010/12/05/nikon-d90-homemade-gps/

could the same be done with this position-ometer? 
http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9

it would be so cool!

Jeff

On Monday, December 5, 2011 4:43:48 PM UTC+1, Jeffrey Martin wrote:
>
> I think that it would be possible to build a device with this component 
> that would write directly to the exif data of images shot with Nikon SLR 
> cameras. 
>
> that would be really really awesome :)
>
>
>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Jeffrey Martin]

I think that it would be possible to build a device with this component 
that would write directly to the exif data of images shot with Nikon SLR 
cameras. 

that would be really really awesome :)


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Oskar Sander]

Well,  using timestamp correlating photos and a correlated "track" of
angles could be "trivial".

Does the EXIF standard permitt custom data fields (like  in this case
adding heading, rotation, pitch and yaw).  In that case it would be
possible to use this infor to generate starting ypr values in hugin.

I was thinking about getting one of these x-IMU that include logging to
SD-card.  However these have a lot of nice other functionalities so they
are a bit of overkill (http://www.x-io.co.uk/node/9)

Cheers
/O

2011/12/5 Wolfgang Strobl 

> Karmadillo :
>
> >There is an iPhone App "Clinometer" that provides very detailed data
> >about tilt angles in all dimensions.
> >If you could securely attach your iPhone to your camera or tripod
> >head, and then calibrate it, you would get the type of information you
> >seek.
> >However Clinometer doesn't output any data so you would need to
> >manually record it for each photo.
>
> Well, there is a sample/demo application (APIdemo?) in the Android SDK,
> which displays three animated line  graphs, one for each axis resp.
> acceleration sensor, same for compass.  The SDK is free, so it's just a
> matter of adding a few lines to that sample, in order to automatically
> record the datat locally or to send it via net internet to some
> listening service. If  storing the data locally  is sufficient, using an
> old, abandoned phone for that purpose might come to mind.
>
> --
> Thank you for observing all safety precautions
>
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/O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Karmadillo]

There is an iPhone App "Clinometer" that provides very detailed data
about tilt angles in all dimensions.
If you could securely attach your iPhone to your camera or tripod
head, and then calibrate it, you would get the type of information you
seek.
However Clinometer doesn't output any data so you would need to
manually record it for each photo.

On Dec 5, 10:16 am, Karmadillo  wrote:
> I believe camera have a portrait/landscape tilt sensor that give a
> binary output. This would not provide the information you want.
>
> On Dec 3, 2:38 am, Oskar Sander  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Is there any cameras out there today that record the camera attitude in
> > EXIF?
>
> > Most cameras have at least one tilt sensor (r), but it would be nice to
> > have tilt around all axis and heading. This could be used as initial values
> > for optimizations for hand held panoramas (mosaics in my case)
>
> > Cheers
> > /O

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Attitude in EXIF?

[Karmadillo]

I believe camera have a portrait/landscape tilt sensor that give a
binary output. This would not provide the information you want.

On Dec 3, 2:38 am, Oskar Sander  wrote:
> Is there any cameras out there today that record the camera attitude in
> EXIF?
>
> Most cameras have at least one tilt sensor (r), but it would be nice to
> have tilt around all axis and heading. This could be used as initial values
> for optimizations for hand held panoramas (mosaics in my case)
>
> Cheers
> /O

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