subject:"Re\: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules"

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 06/12/2007
   at 08:36 AM, Steve Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

To the patent issue: Patents are OK as long as they are for new
technical development and not business processes.

IMHO, patents are desirable only to the extent that USPTO is familiar
with prior art and able to recognize what is obvious to practitioners.
As soon as the USPTO grants patents that don't satisfy the legal
requirements and relies on the courts to resolve issues that they
should have dealt with, then the patents cause more harm than good.
That's true whether the patents are for business processes, hardware
or software.

But having been in a court on an IP case opened my eyes to the 
amount of abuse of the patent process,

The supremes are starting to notice as well.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
06/12/2007
   at 03:39 PM, Craddock, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Most of the instructions are documented in PoPs, but some very
significant ones are NOT. Obvious missing examples include DIAGNOSE
and SIE,

At one time there was an unlicensed manual for SIE. It may still
exist, but it does not include the latest features.
 
-- 
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

In
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
on 06/14/2007
   at 01:46 AM, Timothy Sipples [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

If they're written in C or C++, you recompile them and run them on
z/OS, probably with USS.

Every time someone says I don't believe in theories, another theory
dies. Portability isn't automatic.

If they're written in Perl you (probably) just run them.

BTDTGTS. No tee shirt, just the scars.

Now, to add spit and polish to your z/OS product you might want to
package for SMP/E, cut appropriate SMF records, add ISPF
configuration panels, include some sample JCLs, add explicit support
for EBCDIC, etc. 

I'd consider that last to be essential rather than just spit and
polish.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 06/14/2007
   at 10:23 AM, Tom Marchant [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

At a previous job, we once used ASM2 to defrag a pack.  I don't know
what the error was, but we ended up with a pack with nothing left on
it but the VTOC.

Thank you for helping to recover memories that I had hitherto
successfully suppressed. I don't recall the particular symptom that
you had, but the VTOC smash problems were nonetheless painful.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 06/17/2007
   at 12:43 AM, Phil Smith III [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Let's make this clear once and for all: THERE IS NO LINUX ON Z/OS. 
Not now, not ever.

You write USS when you mean z/OS Unix system Services. Why is one
piece of incorrect nomenclature worse than another? They are equally
wrong.
 
-- 
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We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-18 Thread Gregory, Gary G

You are correct - I knew that Gulf originally wrote TLMS but I had
forgotten that CAPEX called it TLMS II.  Anyone remember the CAPEX logo
page that always printed?

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 14:42 -0400, Gregory, Gary G wrote:
 Didn't CAPEX also market TLMS?

Maybe as TLMS II?  We originally licensed TLMS from Gulf Computer
Sciences.

-- 
David Andrews
A. Duda and Sons, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-18 Thread Howard Brazee

On 18 Jun 2007 12:40:27 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

To the patent issue: Patents are OK as long as they are for new
technical development and not business processes.

IMHO, patents are desirable only to the extent that USPTO is familiar
with prior art and able to recognize what is obvious to practitioners.

Patents are desirable when they contribute to the welfare of the
people.   This happens when innovation is nurtured, wealth is created,
and/or problems reduced - to a greater extent than their expenses.

There have always been some occasions when patents have been used to
get rid of competition or to make free money.   But our environment is
changing, when you need a team of lawyers to tell you how many clicks
someone needs to buy a product on your web page, the costs are greater
than the benefit to society.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-18 Thread Rick Fochtman


--snip---
Didn't CAPEX also market TLMS?
--unsnip-
IIRC, TLMS came from Gulf Computer Services, a division of Gulf Oil Co. 
They also had something UCANDU, if I remember correctly.


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-17 Thread Clem Clarke

Sorry, it was late at night when I typed my message.  I guess if I had 
said Z Series, it might have made a difference?


However, the general push seems to be towards *nix, one way or another.  
Which means that CPU time will be spent looking for Line Feeds when you 
read files, and Binary Zeros at the end of strings, and who knows what 
else to soak up CPU cycles?  MVS was really very efficient.


The MVS part knows record lengths, and can automatically do things 
faster.  And PL/I (for example) knows string lengths, too.



Clem



Phil Smith III wrote:


Clem Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 

If there is not a low cost platform or method to develop software for 
the MVS part of Z/OS, it might as well be dead.  And Linux on Z/OS will 
be what is left. 
   



Let's make this clear once and for all: THERE IS NO LINUX ON Z/OS.  Not now, 
not ever.

There is USS and there is Linux on z.  They're as different as z/OS and VSE (in 
fact, in some ways that's not a bad analogy -- they're sorta kinda similar but 
distinct, and run on the same hardware).

If you meant USS, fine; if you meant Linux on z, fine; but don't say Linux on 
z/OS.  It devalues your entire thesis, which is a shame, 'cause you make some 
excellent points.

...phsiii (cranky after midnight)

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Greg Price

Phil Payne wrote:
 Then there was Nestle Frankfurt, who wanted both CPUs to have the same serial 
 number.
 
 BS3000 was pulled because Fujitsu (deservedly) lost a court case.  One of the 
 settlement
 conditions was the withdrawal of BS3000, another was $600 million, if memory 
 serves.  At the
 time, I not only expected it but felt it long overdue.  Served 'em right.  
 AIM was an affront
 to IBM.

I'll bite.  Of all the things that could be an affront to IBM, why did you pick 
AIM?

AIM - Advanced Information Manager - was the DBMS Fj developed for their own OS 
(X8)
and then ported to their MVS clone (F4).

IIRC it was a network data base, not heirarchical like IMS, not relational like 
DB2 (although
later there was an AIM-RDB), and so probably not copied from anything IBMish at 
all.

Unless you do mean AIM-RDB, which I wouldn't know if it was DB2-like or not.



Just wondering...
Greg P.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Clem Clarke


Phil Payne wrote:


Then there was Nestle Frankfurt, who wanted both CPUs to have the same serial 
number.

BS3000 was pulled because Fujitsu (deservedly) lost a court case.  One of the 
settlement
conditions was the withdrawal of BS3000, another was $600 million, if memory 
serves.  At the
time, I not only expected it but felt it long overdue.  Served 'em right.  AIM 
was an affront
to IBM.

 


The Fujitsu machines were very good.


I keep seeing this Hercules [EMAIL PROTECTED] turning up, and [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
it is.  For the nthousandth time - it
ain't EVER going to happen - there are so many things against it there's no 
time to list them.
It wasn't going to happen before the IBM/PSI thing (for a number of reasons, 
one being the
attitude of the owners) and IBM actually said so at the time: IBM has taken a 
business
decision not to license its software on this platform.

IBM chooses with whom it sleeps.

And after IBM/PSI - Jeez!

I wish we could save the bandwidth.

 


It is, I think, quite simple.

If there is not a low cost platform or method to develop software for 
the MVS part of Z/OS, it might as well be dead.  And Linux on Z/OS will 
be what is left.


And, if that is what people choose, fine.  But we need to know that that 
is what is happening.  And IBM needs to be aware.


And this talk of software being developed in garages  seems to me 
that Apple and Microsoft started that way?


And IBM has taken a business decision not to license its software on 
this platform..  Business is based on restricting information.  Making 
things scarce so they will cost more.  Patenting seeds, for example.  So 
they can suddenly become commercial.  Adding terminator genes so that 
you have to buy a special product from Monsanto to grow seeds that once 
were freely available!


So, IBM makes a business decision that small users are to be phased 
out.  Fine. Where do you think they are going to go, for heavens sake?  
What happened when OS/2 was phased/forced out?


We are all being forced into the *nix and/or Microsoft camp.  OK.  Let's 
admit it, and go with the flow


But let's be very clear who is doing the pushing.  IBM.  You can say 
that it is IBM's choice.  It is.  And they have made it.  (And that the 
shareholder's profits have to be protected.)  Ce la vie to Z/OS.


By restricting access, and not making Z/OS as easy to use as it could 
be.  (That GUI for SPF could have been so much better, with just a tiny 
bit of effort.)


Clem

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Craddock, Chris

 I'll bite.  Of all the things that could be an affront to IBM, why did
you
 pick AIM? AIM - Advanced Information Manager - was the DBMS Fj
developed for their
 own OS (X8) and then ported to their MVS clone (F4).
 
 IIRC it was a network data base, not heirarchical like IMS, not
relational
 like DB2 (although later there was an AIM-RDB), and so probably not
copied from anything
 IBMish at all.
 
 Unless you do mean AIM-RDB, which I wouldn't know if it was DB2-like
or
 not.

AIM-RDB was indeed DB2-like at least from a programming point of view,
but it was a lot less functionally rich, which made the A in AIM a
little ironic. At the time a lot of the FJ product names were prefixed
with A.

It's fair to say AIM itself was IMS-ish. I worked for some time as a
consultant for FJ at FAI Insurance doing a conversion/migration from the
AIM database to AIM-RDB. It was an incredibly painful exercise, not
least because there was no real data integrity in either DBMS. The
application had to provide data integrity with application logic. 

You can just imagine how well that went, so a major part of the effort
was spent in cleaning up and reconciling all of the dangling references
and dead data in the original AIM database. 

The other part was solving a severe deadlock problem in AIM-RDB. I wrote
some software to do deadlock detection and analysis. FJ snarfed it up
and added it to their own product without so much as a by-your-leave.
That work was later immortalized in the reference to RYO ALC mods
stuffed into the Bamboo OS in an infamous Ken Dubbo post. 

CC

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Rick Fochtman


Ed Gould wrote:


On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:51 PM, FRASER, Brian wrote:


I don't think CA was the original developer.



What mainframe software did CA originally develop?




My vague recollection was the cobol optimizer capex. I could be wrong  
its been ages and ages.


--unsnip---
IIRC, CAPEX was the company name. The first CA product I remember was 
CA-Sort, around 1976.


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Ed Gould


On Jun 16, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Rick Fochtman wrote:


Ed Gould wrote:


On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:51 PM, FRASER, Brian wrote:


I don't think CA was the original developer.



What mainframe software did CA originally develop?




My vague recollection was the cobol optimizer capex. I could be  
wrong  its been ages and ages.


--unsnip---
IIRC, CAPEX was the company name. The first CA product I remember  
was CA-Sort, around 1976.




Yes I remember casort we looked at it (along with syncsort and maybe  
1 other) in that time frame. I think we selected Syncsort as (besides  
IBM's sort)  was the only one that supported E61. I was trying to  
scrap the barnacles off my memory chips and decided I couldn't  
reliably say one way or the other but for some reason CApex kept  
coming to the forefront. I did not write the proposal for CAPEX so I  
don't remember. I know it was proposed to stave off an upgrade to the  
4341's we had. As you probably remember the company I worked for was  
extremely stingy with the $$. I had to write a proposal just for TSO.  
I was livid when it got bounced back to me as I used the British  
spelling of a word. I had it retyped and re-proofed in 2 hours and  
handed back to the VP as he was leaving for the day. He was mad at me  
for having him missing his train. I personally took it over to the  
CEO's office and dropped it off with his assistant. The assistant was  
so surprised that it got back to him it less than a day, I think he  
thought we were just going to go away. He had no idea how wrong he was.


Ed

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-16 Thread Phil Smith III

Clem Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
If there is not a low cost platform or method to develop software for 
the MVS part of Z/OS, it might as well be dead.  And Linux on Z/OS will 
be what is left. 

Let's make this clear once and for all: THERE IS NO LINUX ON Z/OS.  Not now, 
not ever.

There is USS and there is Linux on z.  They're as different as z/OS and VSE (in 
fact, in some ways that's not a bad analogy -- they're sorta kinda similar but 
distinct, and run on the same hardware).

If you meant USS, fine; if you meant Linux on z, fine; but don't say Linux on 
z/OS.  It devalues your entire thesis, which is a shame, 'cause you make some 
excellent points.

...phsiii (cranky after midnight)

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread Tom Marchant

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:55:43 +0900, Timothy Sipples wrote:

There's a specific reason I focused on C and UNIX (actually Linux)
development: that was the topic! :-)

The topic of discussion was z/OS development until

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:58:19 +0900, Timothy Sipples wrote:

  ...  However, let's be crystal clear: there's zero impediment that
I can see for basement tinkerers/inventors to create wonderful products for
the IBM mainframe when it's running Linux.

So your statement that you are focusing on Linux development because that's 
the topic seems at best disingenuous to me.  You did manage to sidetrack the 
discussion to Linux with the suggestion that someone who wants to develop 
z/OS software should start with Linux.  That assertion was challenged by 
Steve.

To continue,
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:55:43 +0900, Timothy Sipples wrote:

2. Go through university resources if you're in a position to do that.
Mainframe access is increasingly available that way, perhaps even if you
audit a community college course. Auditing a community college course has a
low price, I'd expect.

I don't know about your part of the world, but mainframe access is certainly 
not increasingly available in Michigan.  I know that mainframe availability 
for 
students at The University of Michigan and Wayne State University was shut 
down long ago.  I'm sure they are not the only ones.  There is not a single 
community college in the state running z/OS.  Yes, I am aware of IBM's 
Academic Initiative.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread Mark Zelden

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:59:47 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Mark Zelden writes:
An *IBM representative* used the U word not once, but twice.

As mentioned countless times, and which I guess I have to repeat yet again,
I'm not an IBM representative here in IBM-MAIN.  I speak only for myself
here.  

I was only joking about this because that was an argument someone else
used.   But to that point, you are no different than anyone else. No one
that I can think of who participates regularly in this list does so as an 
official IBM representative.  They all do so on their own time because they 
want to and presumably like helping people or enjoy the discussions (and 
I for one sincerely appreciate the fact that they do so and thank them!). 
I think think that is true for most if not all the people on this list who work
for software or hardware vendors.  I suppose some ISVs probably have people
monitoring IBM-MAIN to keep everyone honest about their product(s), but
that is the exception and they aren't regular contributors. 

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group:  G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread Tom Moulder


Mark Zelden wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:46:50 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip

  
probably with USS. 



snip

  

and z/OS 1.9 introduces USS improvements



snip

What... no takers, no war?  I'm disappointed.  An *IBM representative* used
the U word not once, but twice.   Does that mean it's officially ok to use
again
casually when the context is clear?

Oh,  btw, I'm glad to see VTAM is finally getting some improvements in that
area.   Now if they can just improve z/OS Unix.   ;-) 


Mark

(please accept my apologies ... I just couldn't resist)
  

Why pick on Timothy, he's too easy a target.

Tom Moulder

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)

 
 
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:51 PM, FRASER, Brian wrote:
What mainframe software did CA originally develop?
 
In a message dated 6/14/2007 10:11:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
My vague recollection was the cobol optimizer capex. I could be  wrong  
its been ages and ages.
 
Capex was the name of an ISV in Phoenix, I think.  They had several  
products.  My employer bought one of their products ca. 1972.  I can't  
remember now 
what it did (too many ages and ages).  I don't remember what  happened to 
Capex, but they were probably borged by CA.
 
Bill  Fairchild
Plainfield, IL





** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread Thompson, Steve

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:18 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:51 PM, FRASER, Brian wrote:
What mainframe software did CA originally develop?

In a message dated 6/14/2007 10:11:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
My vague recollection was the cobol optimizer capex. I could be  wrong
its been ages and ages.

Capex was the name of an ISV in Phoenix, I think.  They had several  
products.  My employer bought one of their products ca. 1972.  I can't
remember now 
what it did (too many ages and ages).  I don't remember what  happened
to 
Capex, but they were probably borged by CA.
snip

They had the CAPEX COBOL Optimizer that was used by two different places
where I did contract work in the '80s. I remember calling them about a
problem and the next week being told they had been acquired by CA.
That's as much as I can recall about them. I remember a bit more about
the optimizer, but not much -- one thing being how well dumps were
formatted when using one of their options (DTECT?). And so the one
client we had was going to get rid of ABENDAID because it didn't make
sense to have both products.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread Chuck Arney

Capex (and the Phoenix location is correct) was the first large software
company CA acquired.  They had the COBOL Optimizer product as well as the
product named SCHEDULER which became, of course, CA-SCHEDULER.

Chuck Arney
illustro Systems International, LLC
http://www.illustro.com
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 Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:35 AM
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 Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules
 
 
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-15 Thread M. Ray Mullins


Timothy Sipples wrote:


Ray Mullins writes:

Random thought - I wonder what would happen if Fujitsu and Hitachi decided
to release their clones of MVS and VSE to hobbyists.  Yeah, yeah, there's
legal agreements, etc., which probably preclude that.


It's an interesting hypothetical to ponder for a little while.  But I'll
ask a question that'll give you a hint what I think the impact would be.
Have these companies shipped any substantial innovations or improvements in
their operating systems in, say, the past decade?


The simple answer to your explicit question:  no.

But in the MVS-ish world they can deliver almost everything except 64 
bit and some sort of OpenMVS functionality (not getting in the 
you-ess-ess fun).  Data spaces,  access registers, TCP/IP stack + 
utilities, a lot of stuff that isn't there in MVS 3.8j.  And for BTI 
(let's drop the slash) types such as myself, that's sufficient.


Later,
Ray

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Sebastian Welton

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:37:38 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There are other effects.  For example, another wise thing IBM did in my
opinion is to release Tivoli OMEGAMON XE for z/OS Management Console.  This
product is available for download at no additional charge to anyone -- go
grab it.  This serves a much larger market expansion role, in making basic
z/OS monitoring much simpler and easier especially for new z/OS operators,
including smaller cash-limited customers.  An operating system that's
easier to use and easier to operate is more likely to enjoy even greater
expansion.  

This also looks quite interesting in this area:

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/residents.nsf/50da6a28780ffa688525701b004a4f21/139a5dae215326d2852572450072f90c?OpenDocument

or:

http://tinyurl.com/25ev5p

Seb

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Chris Mason


Mark

Indeed I did spot it[1] - which is only by chance since there's no guarantee 
I review each contribution in each thread in exhaustive detail. Then I 
looked for the opportunity for an unwary reader to become confused over the 
two possible meanings. I couldn't find it - so I - thought to - let it pass


After all, Timothy may be an IBMer but he is just human as are all IBMers, 
as well as the IBM users who inhabit this hallowed space, and all - well, 
nearly all - of us occasionally fall from grace. I'm sure he'll know better 
next time.


-

If the enhancement to which you refer is the possibility to use system 
symbolics in USS messages, thanks for the heads-up. This is a fascinating 
enhancement since it appears to apply to the TN3270 use of the USS table but 
*not* to the original VTAM use of the USS table. Is the venerated USS table 
being wrested from one networking sect to another?


So, checking your comment again, it would appear not to be VTAM that is 
providing the enhancement but the IP side of Communications Server since 
what is described is the run-time scanning and insertion of text by the 
TN3270 server logic. I hardly see what justifies the finally regarding the 
improvement. If maybe you have just noticed all the substitutions that are 
possible in USS messages they have been there for the most part for well 
over a decade. I even exposed an odd deficiency in the facilities available 
to VTAM developers when the guy responsible for the special USS message 7 
substitutions asked me to test them for him!


Incidentally, I notice that, apart from the revised text, the remainder of 
the section into which it has been inserted has been copy and pasteed from 
the VTAM manuals. This sort of thing is always an opportunity for leading 
innocents astray. I always advise(d) going to the source rather than relying 
on a copy.


I see there is also an enhancement in the TELNET LU Exit but I expect that 
is a function for those blessed with advanced talents.


Chris Mason

[1] The heinous use of USS to mean UNIX System Services when every 
right-minded person knows full well that it is ordained to mean Unformatted 
System Services - a superbly rich function of VTAM which is a godsend - if 
implemented correctly - for users interacting with the help desk - to say 
nothing of actually assisting them to find their way to their desired 
destination - and gently correcting them when their efforts fall short of 
perfection.


- Original Message - 
From: Mark Zelden [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules



On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:46:50 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip


probably with USS.


snip


and z/OS 1.9 introduces USS improvements


snip

What... no takers, no war?  I'm disappointed.  An *IBM representative* 
used
the U word not once, but twice.   Does that mean it's officially ok to 
use

again
casually when the context is clear?

Oh,  btw, I'm glad to see VTAM is finally getting some improvements in 
that

area.   Now if they can just improve z/OS Unix.   ;-)

Mark

(please accept my apologies ... I just couldn't resist)


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Chris Mason

Let's see if this version gets through whatever was the unintelligible 
problem with the last effort!


Mark

What... no takers, no war?  I'm disappointed.  An *IBM representative* 
used
the U word not once, but twice.   Does that mean it's officially ok to 
use

again
casually when the context is clear?


Indeed I did spot it[1] - which is only by chance since there's no guarantee
I review each contribution in each thread in exhaustive detail. Then I
looked for the opportunity for an unwary reader to become confused over the
two possible meanings. I couldn't find it - so I - thought to - let it pass

After all, Timothy may be an IBMer but he is just human as are all IBMers,
as well as the IBM users who inhabit this hallowed space, and all - well,
nearly all - of us occasionally fall from grace. I'm sure he'll know better
next time.

Oh,  btw, I'm glad to see VTAM is finally getting some improvements in 
that

area.   Now if they can just improve z/OS Unix.   ;-)


If the enhancement to which you refer is the possibility to use system
symbolics in USS messages, thanks for the heads-up. This is a fascinating
enhancement since it appears to apply to the TN3270 use of the USS table but
*not* to the original VTAM use of the USS table. Is the venerated USS table
being wrested from one networking sect to another?

So, checking your comment again, it would appear not to be VTAM that is
providing the enhancement but the IP side of Communications Server since
what is described is the run-time scanning and insertion of text by the
TN3270 server logic. I hardly see what justifies the finally regarding the
improvement. If maybe you have just noticed all the substitutions that are
possible in USS messages they have been there for the most part for well
over a decade. I even exposed an odd deficiency in the facilities available
to VTAM developers when the guy responsible for the special USS message 7
substitutions asked me to test them for him!

Incidentally, I notice that, apart from the revised text, the remainder of
the section into which it has been inserted has been copy and pasteed from
the VTAM manuals. This sort of thing is always an opportunity for leading
innocents astray. I always advise(d) going to the source rather than relying
on a copy.

I see there is also an enhancement in the TELNET LU Exit but I expect that
is a function for those blessed with advanced talents.

Chris Mason

[1] The heinous use of USS to mean UNIX System Services when every
right-minded person knows full well that it is ordained to mean Unformatted
System Services - a superbly rich function of VTAM which is a godsend - if
implemented correctly - for users interacting with the help desk - to say
nothing of actually assisting them to find their way to their desired
destination - and gently correcting them when their efforts fall short of
perfection.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Chris Mason


Mark

There is no question that yours is a cursed post. I have sent two versions 
of my reply and both have produced a fatwa condemning it in the following 
terms: rejected because it contains an attachment of type 
'APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM'.   for which I was certainly not responsible. 
Nevertheless, both my transgressions have appeared in the archives. Let's 
see what happens to this one.


Chris Mason

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Zelden [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules



On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:46:50 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip


probably with USS.


snip


and z/OS 1.9 introduces USS improvements


snip

What... no takers, no war?  I'm disappointed.  An *IBM representative* 
used
the U word not once, but twice.   Does that mean it's officially ok to 
use

again
casually when the context is clear?

Oh,  btw, I'm glad to see VTAM is finally getting some improvements in 
that

area.   Now if they can just improve z/OS Unix.   ;-)

Mark

(please accept my apologies ... I just couldn't resist)


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Steve Comstock


Sebastian Welton wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:37:38 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



There are other effects.  For example, another wise thing IBM did in my
opinion is to release Tivoli OMEGAMON XE for z/OS Management Console.  This
product is available for download at no additional charge to anyone -- go
grab it.  This serves a much larger market expansion role, in making basic
z/OS monitoring much simpler and easier especially for new z/OS operators,
including smaller cash-limited customers.  An operating system that's
easier to use and easier to operate is more likely to enjoy even greater
expansion.  



This also looks quite interesting in this area:

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/residents.nsf/50da6a28780ffa688525701b004a4f21/139a5dae215326d2852572450072f90c?OpenDocument

or:

http://tinyurl.com/25ev5p

Seb


I love it; second sentence, two mis-spellings only two
words apart:

  This will be a baseic framework for ssystem...
 ^ ^

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

  z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
   + How things work
   + Programming examples with realistic applications
   + Starter / skeleton code
   + Complete working programs
   + Useful utilities and subroutines
   + Tips and techniques

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Schramm, Rob

From Timothy's Quote 

Yet another effect is that BT/Is (Basement Tinkerers and Inventors)
who create innovative z/OS software products might find that their young
companies are worth more.  There's at least one more company, IBM,
interested in buying certain software companies.  A company's buyer pays
a premium over public trading value.  Said another way, in recent years
the market value of z/OS software companies has grown because there are
more potential suitors.  The growth in market value of such companies is
bound to influence what sort of companies start up in the first place,
because their founders and early employees enjoy significant windfalls.
These are different acquisitions than what we've seen in the past.
These are not typically acquisitions of stable, mature companies with
limited potential for acquiring new customers (i.e. acquisition strategy
#2).


...Just to confirm that all things circular imply futility...

Of course the BT/Is will have a much tougher time of it now with the
non-availability of smaller platforms to develop on.. i.e. Funsoft.

Rob Schramm

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread McKown, John

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craddock, Chris
 Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:25 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

 Dave Kopischke wrote:
  Mark Zelden wrote:
  I don't know what it suggests.  It looks like the doc should say
  Linux for zSeries or something like that... not z/OS Linux.

  Exactly. That's why the conspiracy theorists are implying 
 LINUX may be
 a
  replacement for UNIX System Services in some future z/OS release.

 Geez where does this nuttiness come from? It may be great 
 fodder for the
 conspiracy theorists, but z/OS UNIX (whether it's called USS or not
 :-) and Linux on z (again, regardless of what it's called) 
 are utterly
 different things. Neither one can directly replace the other except
 perhaps in the fevered imagination of a marketer.

 CC

However, z/OS UNIX for System Services could implement more of some of
the things which are in the Linux kernel.

But what I would love more than that would be a port of the entire GNU
tool chain. I know that IBM has done some of this, but I miss some of my
favorite GNU utilities. As an example, GNU tar is, IMO, significantly
better than pax (except that it cannot do the on-the-fly code conversion
- that is nice). gmake smokes IBM's make. And the thought of get the
autoconfig stuff is heady. GNU diff vs. IBM diff - what a difference!
GNU grep. And I could go on and on. But I realize that this would take
time and money. If I had the time and talent and money (and a C compiler
that would work on z/OS), then I'd take a stab at some of these.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Mark Zelden

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:07:28 +0200, Chris Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Mark

There is no question that yours is a cursed post. I have sent two versions
of my reply and both have produced a fatwa condemning it in the following
terms: rejected because it contains an attachment of type
'APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM'.   for which I was certainly not responsible.
Nevertheless, both my transgressions have appeared in the archives. Let's
see what happens to this one.


Both made it... as well as this one.

Does that mean a virus?  Whatever it means, it didn't come from my
post.  I post from the web archive interface.

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group:  G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS and OS390 expert at http://searchDataCenter.com/ateExperts/
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Mohammad Khan

I share your pessimism on this, we aren't going to have a z/OS (or a clone) to 
play with. IBM has made it clear enough - if you want to develop pay big buck 
or you can play with MVS 3.8 if you are just a hobbyist. I guess all that is 
left 
to hobbyists is to start hacking the guts of MVS 3.8  and bring it a little 
closer 
to the real thing. Say bigger address spaces.
Oh well ...
Mohammad


On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:21:49 -0700, Ray Mullins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Random thought - I wonder what would happen if Fujitsu and Hitachi decided
to release their clones of MVS and VSE to hobbyists.  Yeah, yeah, there's
legal agreements, etc., which probably preclude that.


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

I'm sure most financial people have heard of the Hogan Integrated
Banking system.  Back in the 70's Bernie Hogan did exactly what was
discussed here - he and a couple of programmers would spend their nights
and weekends in downtown Dallas at I believe RepublicBank.  In the end
they received a multimillion dollar banking system for free.

Gary Garland Gregory, MS


 


-snip
I believe that one problem with the model below in today's environment 
is the need for strict security. I've worked in banking IT operations 
all my career. At one location we gave time on the mainframe to a vendor

who had some products that plugged into IBM's CPCS (Check Processing 
Control System) in exchange for free use of his software. I don't 
believe there is any bank that would do that these days because of 
security issues.

Tom Kelman
Commerce Bank of Kansas City
unsnip---
Tom, from my experience in finance-related industry (Futures and 
Options), I have to agree. The concern for security today is such that 
most firms wouldn't even let a potential ISV to SEE the computer, much 
less use it, regardless of any security arrangements, software, etc.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Craddock, Chris

 Indeed, if we look at the Candle acquisition, the investments in those
 products have been reinvigorated.As just one
 example, we here in Japan were waiting years (decades?) for OMEGAMON
to
 get full Japanese language translation

That's true, but none too compelling (to me) because Candle was working
on that when I worked there in 1998! Now arguably IBM sped that process
on to completion, but without knowing all of the facts it is hard to
judge what their contribution was. For the record, doing
internationalization on the Candle products was BRUTALLY difficult
because the product architecture does not lend itself to that. I'm not
very surprised it took 9 years to deliver.

CC

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Bruce Black

Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all I 
know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then Brightstore 
CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an 
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.


--
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Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sales info: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Wayne Driscoll

ASM2 was a Cambridge product, Cambridge was acquired by UCCEL at about
the same time that SKK (ACF2) was.  Cambridge had the exclusive
marketing rights to the SKK product line in the US at the time.  UCCEL
was then acquired by CA about 6-9 months later.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Black
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

 Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all I
 know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then Brightstore
CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

--
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Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread John Eells


No!

It is far from correct to conclude that, and I'm sure that's not 
at all what Timothy meant.  We have a really substantial 
investment in z/OS development spread across several sites 
worldwide.  Much of that development has been and continues to be 
for the MVS part of z/OS.


Clem Clarke wrote:

Hi Tim,

I won't copy your entire message, but reading between the lines I think 
in essence you are saying that the MVS part of Z/OS is effectively dead, 
done and finished as far as IBM is concerned?


Or would like it to be ...

Is that the truth?

snip

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z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Lester, Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Black
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

 Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all I

 know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then Brightstore 
CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an 
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

  Before it was bought by CA, it was DMS from Sterling Software which
(used to be) the same Company (now Sterling Commerce) that markets NDM
(now Connect:Direct).  Whew!

BobL

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Mark Jacobs


Bruce Black wrote:
Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all 
I know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then 
Brightstore CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think 
there was an intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.


ASM2 was owned by SKK (The authors of ACF2) and became CA property when 
CA bought SKK.


--
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Technical Services
Time Customer Service - Tampa, FL
--
Victory in defeat, there is none higher. She didn't give up, Ben; 
she's still trying to lift that stone after it has crushed her.
She's a father going down to a dull office job while cancer is 
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check for the kids. She's a twelve-year-old girl trying to mother her
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switchboard operator sticking to her job while smoke is choking her 
and the fire is cutting off her escape. She's all the unsung heroes

who couldn't quite cut it but never quit.*

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Binyamin Dissen

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:04:28 -0400 Mark Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

:Bruce Black wrote:
: Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all 
: I know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
: ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then 
: Brightstore CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think 
: there was an intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

:ASM2 was owned by SKK (The authors of ACF2) and became CA property when 
:CA bought SKK.

Not that I know of (and I worked for SKK at the time).

Cambridge marketed both products.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Mark Jacobs


Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:04:28 -0400 Mark Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

:Bruce Black wrote:
: Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all 
: I know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
: ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then 
: Brightstore CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think 
: there was an intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.


:ASM2 was owned by SKK (The authors of ACF2) and became CA property when 
:CA bought SKK.


Not that I know of (and I worked for SKK at the time).

Cambridge marketed both products.

  
You are correct, my memory must be going but I do seem to remember an 
ASM2 and SKK relationship of some sort.


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who couldn't quite cut it but never quit.*

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Jeffrey D. Smith

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Binyamin Dissen
 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:15 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

 On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:04:28 -0400 Mark Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

 :Bruce Black wrote:
 : Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all
 : I know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
 : ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then
 : Brightstore CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think
 : there was an intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

 :ASM2 was owned by SKK (The authors of ACF2) and became CA property when
 :CA bought SKK.

 Not that I know of (and I worked for SKK at the time).

 Cambridge marketed both products.

 --
 Binyamin Dissen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I was employed by Cambridge Systems Group at the time of the takeover by
UCCEL. As it was explained to me by folks there who seemed to know what
was happening, UCCEL wanted to buy only ACF2, but CSG had (semi-)exclusive
marketing rights to ACF2, ASM2, and ADC2. Due to contractual obligations,
if SKK wanted to sell ACF2, then the buyer also had to buy-out the CSG
products (ASM2 and ADC2).

IIRC, some suits showed up on Monday and huddled in a very small room
for most of the week. On Friday, they came out and fired most of the
CSG personnel. The dismissed personnel had to leave immediately; they
could return for their personal items after they attended a meeting
at a local hotel (I think it was called an out-placement meeting). A
local company was hired to handle the dispatching of the fired personnel.

What goes around, comes around. Just about 3 months later CA bought-out
UCCEL, and many UCCEL folks received their pink slips. It seems that CA
was already in private talks with UCCEL for a takeover, but CA had to
wait until the CSG/SKK takeover was complete before CA could proceed
with taking over UCCEL.

I survived the UCCEL takeover, but I quickly went across the street to
Boole  Babbage and got a job there. (Those were the days when MVS
product development jobs were plentifulsigh...)

Jeffrey D. Smith
Principal Product Architect
Farsight Systems Corporation
700 KEN PRATT BLVD. #204-159
LONGMONT, CO 80501-6452
303-774-9381 direct
303-484-6170 FAX
http://www.farsight-systems.com/
see my résumé at my website (yes, I am looking for employment)

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Farley, Peter x23353

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of John Eells
 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:01 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

 No!

 It is far from correct to conclude that, and I'm sure that's not
 at all what Timothy meant.  We have a really substantial
 investment in z/OS development spread across several sites
 worldwide.  Much of that development has been and continues to be
 for the MVS part of z/OS.

That may not be what Timothy meant, but notice the distinct lack of a path
for BT/I's (to use Timothy's acronym) to develop z/OS programs (i.e., not
java, not web, not unix).  That's what the OP was really asking for and
which IBM hasn't and probably won't ever provide (and yes, Alan's comment
that this forum isn't the right place to advocate change in this area is
still true, but...).

IMHO it isn't market expansion that is the issue, it is z/OS developer pool
expansion.  IBM's past short-sightedness in allowing universities to abandon
the mainframe reduced the availability of new talent for the developer pool
for years to come.  Their further shortsightedness in failing to provide
low- or no-cost options for independent BT/I's to develop on and for z/OS
further reduces the developer pool to only those who already work for
large hardware clients, many of whom will retire very soon.  And any
development you do on an employer's machine belongs to them unless you get a
specific legal waiver (quite unlikely in this litigious age).

Peter

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Rich Smrcina

This appears to be getting a life of it's own on vse-l now (which is 
also searchable on Google), complete with a sidetrack about Oracle on 
VM!  Careful what you wish for... :)


Timothy Sipples wrote:

Rich Smrcina says:

I should start putting Linux on z/VSE in random blog posts to see if I
can start another rumor, just for fun.  Ooops.  I guess that just went

into

Google now.

Niiice


We have a little Google bomb running now!  Your Niiice quoting my
post generated Google hit #2, and now since I quoted myself we've
incremented to Google hit #3.

Give it two weeks and maybe IBM Boeblingen will have the project in their
fall plan. :-) :-) :-)



--
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VM Assist, Inc.
Phone: 414-491-6001
Ans Service:  360-715-2467
rich.smrcina at vmassist.com

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Mark Zelden

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:38:04 -0400, Bruce Black [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all I
 know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then Brightstore
CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.


No, CA-Disk is what was formerly SAMS:Disk (Sterling), which was formerly
known as DMS.   ASM2 is a different product and is called CA-ASM2 Backup 
and Restore.  Both are under the Brightstor product line, but I think CA 
dropped the Brightstor from the name not too long ago.  CA acquired
ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but I don't think CA
was the original developer.

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group:  G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Binyamin Dissen

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:01:06 -0500 Mark Zelden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

: but I don't think CA
:was the original developer.

I think you will have to offer at least 30 to 1 for anyone to take that bet.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Dean Kent

Timothy Sipples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

OK, moving on to the separate issue you raise.  It's an excellent question.
As said, to a first order effect, IBM buying Candle (for example) did not
expand the mainframe market.  And what I think you mean is expanding the
number of products in the mainframe market.  The day before the acquisition
there were X number of Candle products, and the day after there were still
X number of the same products, so no change.

By 'expanding the market', I was referring to the context of
the original post - which was essentially about opportunities for
entrepreneurs, not about end users.   I simply cannot see how anyone,
anywhere, in any position can actually claim that IBM has made it easier for
a 'BT/I' to enter, or remain, in the mainframe market than it was in, say,
the 1970s or 1980s.   There is a term called 'barrier to entry', which seems
to be getting higher all the time.  This may be a natural progression, but
arguing that it isn't the case seems... odd.   Apologies, but I am somewhat
boggled by the line of reasoning in response.   While I realize nobody who
works for IBM can say, Hey, IBM doesn't think there is any chance of
expanding the market, and therefore wants to consolidate/control it and milk
as much revenue as possible while it can, trying to claim that the duck is
a swan is a little insulting.

While I realize this isn't a venue for change, it *is* a discussion group -
but I also apologize if these replies annoy anyone.

Regards,
   Dean

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Staller, Allan

snip
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
/snip

I can think of very few products *EVER* developed by CA. Including their
very 1st product CA-SORT.

Their old motto Software Superior by Design should have read Software
Superior by Acquisition

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules


On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:07 AM, Mark Zelden wrote:
Mark and others:

I had two posts rejected because of the same issue. One was probably  
legit and the other I couldn't find anything in it that was wrong.


Darren must be experimenting again:(

Ed

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Richards.Bob

I think Manage/SMF was one of them. Not content to have a very useful
product, they imbedded it into CA-JARS. In the last couple of years it
was been split out again as SMF Director, but they want too many $$$ for
a functionality that most sysprogs developed a workaround for 20 years
ago.

Bob Richards 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Staller, Allan
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

snip
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
/snip

I can think of very few products *EVER* developed by CA. Including their
very 1st product CA-SORT.

Their old motto Software Superior by Design should have read Software
Superior by Acquisition 
  
  
  
LEGAL DISCLAIMER 
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Howard Brazee

On 14 Jun 2007 09:58:46 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

By 'expanding the market', I was referring to the context of
the original post - which was essentially about opportunities for
entrepreneurs, not about end users.   I simply cannot see how anyone,
anywhere, in any position can actually claim that IBM has made it easier for
a 'BT/I' to enter, or remain, in the mainframe market than it was in, say,
the 1970s or 1980s.

Ahh, but the market gets redefined.   Look at retail, with Wards then
Sears then Wal*Mart and the Internet.   Customers don't want
drill-bits, they want holes.If a company wants to be in the
business of serving up data, it can compete with IBM/Mainframes easier
than Amdahl could back when.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

CA Dynam/D, CA Dynam/T and CA Dynam/FI

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Staller, Allan
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

snip
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
/snip

I can think of very few products *EVER* developed by CA. Including their
very 1st product CA-SORT.

Their old motto Software Superior by Design should have read Software
Superior by Acquisition

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Ted MacNEIL

now Sterling Commerce) that markets NDM (now Connect:Direct).

NDM, Connect/Direct  Connect/Enterprise are separate products.
At least, they are keyed separately.

Having had to fight our service provider over them, that's one thing I learned!

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

Oh yeah, how could I forget the product I work on - CA Tape Encryption.

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richards.Bob
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

I think Manage/SMF was one of them. Not content to have a very useful
product, they imbedded it into CA-JARS. In the last couple of years it
was been split out again as SMF Director, but they want too many $$$ for
a functionality that most sysprogs developed a workaround for 20 years
ago.

Bob Richards 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Staller, Allan
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

snip
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
/snip

I can think of very few products *EVER* developed by CA. Including their
very 1st product CA-SORT.

Their old motto Software Superior by Design should have read Software
Superior by Acquisition 
  
  
  
LEGAL DISCLAIMER 
The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or
entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
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entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

CA-DISK AKA BrightStor CA-Disk, et al was SAMS:DISK from the Sterling
Software acquisition.  

GGG

 snip 
 
 Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for all I

 know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then Brightstore 
CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an 
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

-- 
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Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Lester, Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

now Sterling Commerce) that markets NDM (now Connect:Direct).

NDM, Connect/Direct  Connect/Enterprise are separate products.
At least, they are keyed separately.


  NDM = Connect:Direct
  Connect/Enterprise is the replacement for Connect:Mailbox (which was
the replacement for SuperTRACS, which was the replacement for TRACS)

  I've been doing this waay to long!

BobL
   

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)

 
 
In a message dated 6/14/2007 1:31:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -   but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
 
UCCEL acquired ASM2 on DEC 1985 from Cambridge Systems, which was  somewhere 
in the San Fran bay area.  UCCEL also acquired my employer in  that same deal, 
which is how I remember the date so precisely.  CA acquired  UCCEL ca. AUG 
1987.
 
Bill  Fairchild
Plainfield, IL





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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

I was at UCCEL during that period of time.  During all of those acquit
ions they also bought a little Boston company, CORADALE (or something
like that) for their VSE System/Manager (Space/Manager, Tape/Manager)
and System/Scheduler products.  So UCCEL had System/Manager and CA had
DYNAM.  UCCEL had ACF2 and CA had Top Secret, etc, etc.

Back in the mid-80's is looked like a race between CA and UCCEL to see
who could acquire the most companies.  

GGG
 
 snip 

ASM2 was a Cambridge product, Cambridge was acquired by UCCEL at about
the same time that SKK (ACF2) was.  Cambridge had the exclusive
marketing rights to the SKK product line in the US at the time.  UCCEL
was then acquired by CA about 6-9 months later.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Chuck Arney

CA's original products were all developed internally.  They were VM and VSE
based products.  The original products were IDOS (cut down VSE that ran
under CMS), SYMBUG and SYMDATA.  Dynam/D and Dynam/FI were internally
developed but Dynam/T was acquired from Viking Computer.

Chuck Arney
illustro Systems International, LLC
http://www.illustro.com
Access 3270 data from anywhere with z/XML-Host
Access 3270 apps from the web with z/Web-Host
Access CMS minidisks from z/OS or z/VSE with CMSACCess
Voice: 214-800-8900
Fax:   214-451-6394
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 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Gregory, Gary G
 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:31 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules
 
 CA Dynam/D, CA Dynam/T and CA Dynam/FI


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

If you remember -- shortly after UCCEL acquired ASM2 they killed UCC3.

 snip 


I was employed by Cambridge Systems Group at the time of the takeover by
UCCEL. As it was explained to me by folks there who seemed to know what
was happening, UCCEL wanted to buy only ACF2, but CSG had (semi-)exclusive
marketing rights to ACF2, ASM2, and ADC2. Due to contractual obligations,
if SKK wanted to sell ACF2, then the buyer also had to buy-out the CSG
products (ASM2 and ADC2).

IIRC, some suits showed up on Monday and huddled in a very small room
for most of the week. On Friday, they came out and fired most of the
CSG personnel. The dismissed personnel had to leave immediately; they
could return for their personal items after they attended a meeting
at a local hotel (I think it was called an out-placement meeting). A
local company was hired to handle the dispatching of the fired personnel.

What goes around, comes around. Just about 3 months later CA bought-out
UCCEL, and many UCCEL folks received their pink slips. It seems that CA
was already in private talks with UCCEL for a takeover, but CA had to
wait until the CSG/SKK takeover was complete before CA could proceed
with taking over UCCEL.

I survived the UCCEL takeover, but I quickly went across the street to
Boole  Babbage and got a job there. (Those were the days when MVS
product development jobs were plentifulsigh...)


Jeffrey D. Smith
Principal Product Architect
Farsight Systems Corporation
700 KEN PRATT BLVD. #204-159
LONGMONT, CO 80501-6452
303-774-9381 direct
303-484-6170 FAX
http://www.farsight-systems.com/
see my résumé at my website (yes, I am looking for employment)

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Richards.Bob

Mark,

I am fairly sure it was imbedded and in order to get it, you had to also
get CA-JARS (a very bad idea. IBM's Performance Reporter was worse, at
the time, though...LOL). Yup, VERY convenient and useful tool.

Bob Richards 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Zelden
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:39:48 -0400, Richards.Bob
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

I think Manage/SMF was one of them. Not content to have a very useful
product, they imbedded it into CA-JARS. In the last couple of years it
was been split out again as SMF Director, but they want too many $$$
for
a functionality that most sysprogs developed a workaround for 20 years
ago.


I used that product at my first job.   I liked it.   It was thrown in as
a
freebie 
with a bunch of other products as part of a huge software contract with
CA 
for one of the MVS environments that supported a bank.  Every CA product
known to man kind ran on that system (years later that helped me when
consulting since I worked with so many CA products).  

Was it part of JARS or just given the JARS brand name?  ISTR it being 
named JARS/SMF.   At any rate, you are correct about the cost.  One of
my
clients was looking at getting it and I remember that the cost seemed
very high.  But it was very convenient to just say give me SMF data
from
this date to that date and not worry about data set names, exact run 
times and split offs, 4 weeks in a month or 5, etc. 
  
  
  
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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Thompson, Steve

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

now Sterling Commerce) that markets NDM (now Connect:Direct).

NDM, Connect/Direct  Connect/Enterprise are separate products.
At least, they are keyed separately.
SNIP

System Center (or was it Systems Center) had NDM. System Center was
acquired by Sterling and renamed Connect:Direct. Sterling Software and
Sterling Commerce became two different entities (I wasn't here at the
time and so don't know all the ins-outs, reasons).

So certain of the products were handled by the Software side and certain
by the Commerce side (or entity). Sterling Commerce is now an ATT
company.

And now to my STD disclaimer -- The opinions expressed by the poster are
not necessarily those of poster's employer.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Tony Harminc

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:40:40 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

UCCEL acquired ASM2 on DEC 1985 from Cambridge Systems, which was
 somewhere in the San Fran bay area.  

CSG was for a while subtitled The Stanford Center for Software Development,
until someone connected to the university that pretty much defines that same
small town took an interest, after which it became just The Center for
Software Development. Evidently just having a P.O. box in Stanford, Cal.
doesn't quite cut it.

UCCEL also acquired my employer in that same deal, which is how I remember 
 the date so precisely.  CA acquired  UCCEL ca. AUG 1987.

And they all sued each other, and the lawyers lived happily ever after.
Actually remarkably few lawyers seem to have been involved in a number of
cases concerning many of the same people and companies. Aging historians
with time on their hands may find use of a search engine with various
combinations of Cambridge Systems Group, SKK, UCCEL, ACF2, ASM2, McLaren,
and Stanford to be interesting, as well as the edgar.sec.gov site.

Tony H.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

Steve, I started at Sterling Commerce a few weeks after it was spun off
from Sterling Software.  I was told the motivating factor was divide out
the financial (Vector: xxx banking software) and commerce software
(Connect:Direct, Connect:Enterprise, GENTRAN, etc) from the systems
software (VM:BACKUP, DMS, etc).  

Each company had its own stock and for quite a while they seemed to move
in parallel.  Guess Sterling Williams and the Wyly brothers thought the
commerce side would move one way and the systems software another.

I think this was the hierarchy - Systems Center developed and marketed
NDM.  Shortly thereafter they merged with VM Software and created System
Center.
  

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
snip 

System Center (or was it Systems Center) had NDM. System Center was
acquired by Sterling and renamed Connect:Direct. Sterling Software and
Sterling Commerce became two different entities (I wasn't here at the
time and so don't know all the ins-outs, reasons).

So certain of the products were handled by the Software side and certain
by the Commerce side (or entity). Sterling Commerce is now an ATT
company.

And now to my STD disclaimer -- The opinions expressed by the poster are
not necessarily those of poster's employer.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Rick Fochtman

Sebastian Welton wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:37:38 +0900, Timothy Sipples
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There are other effects. For example, another wise thing IBM did in my
opinion is to release Tivoli OMEGAMON XE for z/OS Management Console. This
product is available for download at no additional charge to anyone -- go
grab it. This serves a much larger market expansion role, in making basic
z/OS monitoring much simpler and easier especially for new z/OS operators,
including smaller cash-limited customers. An operating system that's
easier to use and easier to operate is more likely to enjoy even greater
expansion.

This also looks quite interesting in this area:

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/residents.nsf/50da6a28780ffa688525701b004a4f21/139a5dae215326d2852572450072f90c?OpenDocument

or:

http://tinyurl.com/25ev5p

Seb

---unsnip--
All this is fine and dandy, for an established software house, but it
doesn't address the initial problem. Where is a small developer going to
get access to computer resources for product development? I get a small
amount of mainframe time, once in a while, in return for consulting
services. But not everyone is that lucky. The solutions offered are not
acceptable because of the cost. (I'm living on a rather niggardly
pension; I can't take out a SBA loan every month just to buy computer
time!) Being allowed to run Hercules and MVS 3.8 under it is nice, but
there's no RACF, for which I'd like to develop low-cost RACF reporting
tools. DITTO for ISPF, for which I'd like to develop better storage
management reporting tools, among other things. Now the shop where I
have my somewhat limited access is talking about ditching the mainframe
entirely; the costs of z/OS, DB2, CICS and OEM software are reaching the
point of being untenable. Now what?

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Lester, Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gregory, Gary G
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

Steve, I started at Sterling Commerce a few weeks after it was spun off
from Sterling Software.  I was told the motivating factor was divide out
the financial (Vector: xxx banking software) and commerce software
(Connect:Direct, Connect:Enterprise, GENTRAN, etc) from the systems
software (VM:BACKUP, DMS, etc).  

  Gary,

   Thanks for the additional info.  I've been using
DMS/VAM/TRACS/SUPERTRACS/MAILBOX/NDM (er..Connect:Direct) for many
years.  It's interesting to hear the evolution of the products re:
companies involved.

BobL

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Rick Fochtman


snip--:


snip
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from -  but
I don't think CA was the original developer.
/snip

I can think of very few products *EVER* developed by CA. Including their
very 1st product CA-SORT.

Their old motto Software Superior by Design should have read Software
Superior by Acquisition
 


-unsnip
I still have a letter from Whitlow that was sent to all SyncSort 
customers about a blowup between Whitlow, CA and ComputerWorld 
concerning false and misleading statements in CA advertisements in 
ComputerWorld. Distinctly bad karma.


And I've always refered to CA as Competition by Acquisition. My worst 
experience was shortly after CA acquired Pansophics and took over PANVALET.


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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Randy Hudson

In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 5.  Buy to acquire skills. It is interesting that Univac bought
 the RCA design, but didn't keep the computer designers after they
 built their RCA like computer.   So IBM hired the laid off engineers
 and built theirs.

Univac was looking at the revenue stream of the maintenance contracts for
the existing RCA installed base.  They didn't lay off the RCA FE's.

-- 
Randy Hudson

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread Ken Brick

Gregory, Gary G wrote:
 CA Dynam/D, CA Dynam/T and CA Dynam/FI

   
CA Dynam/T from memory had a manual in the early days that was almost an
exact copy of EPAT

Ken

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules


On Jun 14, 2007, at 1:40 PM, (IBM Mainframe Discussion List) wrote:




In a message dated 6/14/2007 1:31:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
CA acquired ASM2 so long ago that I forgot where they got it from  
-   but

I don't think CA was the original developer.

UCCEL acquired ASM2 on DEC 1985 from Cambridge Systems, which was   
somewhere
in the San Fran bay area.  UCCEL also acquired my employer in  that  
same deal,
which is how I remember the date so precisely.  CA acquired  UCCEL  
ca. AUG

1987.

Bill  Fairchild
Plainfield, IL


Bill,

That sounds right. The person I dealt with was Shawn Mcclaren (sp?)  
and I am pretty sure he was on the west coast as seemed to take the  
red eyes quite a bit.


Ed

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread FRASER, Brian

 I don't think CA was the original developer.


What mainframe software did CA originally develop? 

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules


On Jun 14, 2007, at 10:03 AM, Lester, Bob wrote:
---SNIP



Vary true ... There used to be a product (it may still exist for  
all I



know) that was a competitor to IBM's DFHSM
ASM2 was eventually acquired by CA and become CA-DISK, then  
Brightstore

CA-DISK, and now CA Disk Backup and Restore.  I think there was an
intermediate acquisition that I have forgotten about.

  Before it was bought by CA, it was DMS from Sterling Software which
(used to be) the same Company (now Sterling Commerce) that markets NDM
(now Connect:Direct).  Whew!


SNIP-

From what I remember (subject to bit droppings) ASM2 used IEHMOVE  
under the covers to move the data set. I couldn't believe anyone  
would stake their product life on IEHMOVE.


Ed

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules

2007-06-14 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)

 
 
In a message dated 6/14/2007 8:19:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The person I dealt with was Shawn Mcclaren (sp?)  
and I am  pretty sure he was on the west coast as seemed to take the  
red eyes  quite a bit.
 
I remembered the name CSG earlier but had forgotten Shawn's name until your  
post.  That was his name.  He was in the corporate HQ in the S-F bay  area.
 
Bill  Fairchild
Plainfield, IL





** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Re: Patents, Copyrights, Profits, Flex and Hercules