Re: Mainframe co-op

[Ed Jaffe]

On 7/3/2020 12:16 PM, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote:

Ah, software cost. I still remember the first CPU upgrade after the insinuation 
of tiered pricing. We budgeted for the hardware and extracted approval from 
management. Then we were bowled over when the software bills rolled in. Of 
course it was our fault for not considering the budget busting impact of 
increased MIPS. Not sure IBM thought it through. We now refrain from hardware 
upgrades because of software costs.


The opposite is true. For many years now, hardware upgrades have 
resulted in *lower* software costs!


This change in behavior began back in the z9 days (2007?) when IBM began 
adjusting MSU ratings to provide "Technology Dividends." Once the folly 
of that hardware "dial-back" methodology became clear, they stopped 
"monkeying" with processor ratings and focused instead on providing 
software discounts based on which generation of hardware you were 
running. These discounts take the form of what IBM today calls 
Technology Transition Charges and Technology Update Pricing. For example:


1. Suppose you have a 400 MSU zEC12. You receive a 6.3% discount on
   AWLC pricing.
2. If you upgrade to a 400 MSU z13. You receive an 11% discount on AWLC
   pricing.
3. If you upgrade to a 400 MSU z14. You receive a 16% discount on AWLC
   pricing.
4. If you upgrade to a 400 MSU z15. You receive an 18% discount on AWLC
   pricing.

So, if you don't grow your CP-based MIPS when upgrading from a zEC12 to 
a z15, you get 35% faster IFLs, zIIPs, and ICFs and your software bill 
goes down over 14%.


Alternatively, because of the way the pricing curves work, you can 
upgrade your CP-based MIPS *far* more than 14% and keep your software 
bill essentially unchanged.



--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
Chief Technology Officer
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/3/20 9:46 PM, kekronbekron wrote:
Would love to know more about what your FICON buddy is working 
on Grant.


Check out Christian Svensson's (@blueCmd [1]) fejkon project on GitHub 
[2] and his blog (?) [3].  It's all public information.



If you wanna share (prefer off-list?), please email :)


Your email address seems to be specific to the listserve domain, so I 
don't know if it's you or the list.  Feel free to reply directly to me 
if you want.  (My address seems to be coming through unmodified to both 
my copy and to the bit.listserve.ibm-main Usenet newsgroup.)


Unless IBM explicitly sets up college courses or NDA-tied free-roam 
access or whatever, it's only going to be the likes of zAcademy, i.e., 
restricted lab environments to basically market at the command-line, 
much like walking the dotten line in an acquarium/zoo/etc. (if you 
turn to your right, you can issue 2 commands to Spark on Z)


I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for IBM to make the mainframe 
more accessible to hobbyists / students.  I think MtM is the extent of 
their offer.


Funny though, because isn't this exactly what Time Sharing Option was, 
when it was first introduced?


I don't yet know enough history.  I'm still learning.

[1] https://twitter.com/blueCmd
[2] https://github.com/bluecmd/fejkon
[3] https://blog.mainframe.dev



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[kekronbekron]

In fact, if IBM really does consider this, they might as well also build a 
near-real-time security monitoring product for Z, using CDPz as a source pump.
Maybe Z Operations Insight Suite already has security-specific 
dashboard(s)/reports...

- KB

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, July 4, 2020 9:22 AM, kekronbekron 
<02dee3fcae33-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Besides, any opportunity that allows others to poke at the platform, is an 
> opportunity well-left (for IBM).
>
> However, since IBM now has controls like
> a) ALLOWUSERKEY
> b) z/OS Authorized Code Scanner
> c) near-real-time interfaces to SMF and tools like CDPz
>
> ... they should be capable of seting up a tightened & fully monitored 
> environment.
> Don't believe the above will allow for messing around / learning HCD & other 
> I/O stuff, without them building an sim/emulated env. for that level of 
> control.
>
> -   KB
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, July 4, 2020 9:16 AM, kekronbekron wrote:
>
>
> > Would love to know more about what your FICON buddy is working on Grant.
> > If you wanna share (prefer off-list?), please email :)
> > Unless IBM explicitly sets up college courses or NDA-tied free-roam access 
> > or whatever, it's only going to be the likes of zAcademy, i.e., restricted 
> > lab environments to basically market at the command-line, much like walking 
> > the dotten line in an acquarium/zoo/etc. (if you turn to your right, you 
> > can issue 2 commands to Spark on Z)
> > Funny though, because isn't this exactly what Time Sharing Option was, when 
> > it was first introduced?
> >
> > -   KB
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Friday, July 3, 2020 9:48 PM, Grant Taylor 
> > 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On 7/3/20 10:12 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> > >
> > > > I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have
> > > > DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for
> > > > z/OS for his CPC.
> > >
> > > One of the people I know is developing his own FICON connected DASD by
> > > reading any and all documents he can get his hands on.
> > > What do we, as the mainframe community, and IBM, as the big name, need
> > > to do to encourage these extremely creative, resourceful, and driven
> > > people better access to a functioning mainframe so that they can use
> > > their creative talents and drive to help further the mainframe?
> > > There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS 3.8j,
> > > which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites therefor, and
> > > backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any prerequisites.
> > > This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50 years
> > > ago and helped Linux become what it is today. Just think for a moment
> > > where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some of these
> > > creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.
> > > Grant. . . .
> > > unix || die
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[kekronbekron]

Besides, any opportunity that allows others to poke at the platform, is an 
opportunity well-left (for IBM).

However, since IBM now has controls like
a) ALLOWUSERKEY
b) z/OS Authorized Code Scanner
c) near-real-time interfaces to SMF and tools like CDPz


... they should be capable of seting up a tightened & fully monitored 
environment.
Don't believe the above will allow for messing around / learning HCD & other 
I/O stuff, without them building an sim/emulated env. for that level of control.

- KB

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, July 4, 2020 9:16 AM, kekronbekron  
wrote:

> Would love to know more about what your FICON buddy is working on Grant.
> If you wanna share (prefer off-list?), please email :)
>
> Unless IBM explicitly sets up college courses or NDA-tied free-roam access or 
> whatever, it's only going to be the likes of zAcademy, i.e., restricted lab 
> environments to basically market at the command-line, much like walking the 
> dotten line in an acquarium/zoo/etc. (if you turn to your right, you can 
> issue 2 commands to Spark on Z)
>
> Funny though, because isn't this exactly what Time Sharing Option was, when 
> it was first introduced?
>
> -   KB
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Friday, July 3, 2020 9:48 PM, Grant Taylor 
> 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu wrote:
>
>
> > On 7/3/20 10:12 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have
> > > DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for
> > > z/OS for his CPC.
> >
> > One of the people I know is developing his own FICON connected DASD by
> > reading any and all documents he can get his hands on.
> > What do we, as the mainframe community, and IBM, as the big name, need
> > to do to encourage these extremely creative, resourceful, and driven
> > people better access to a functioning mainframe so that they can use
> > their creative talents and drive to help further the mainframe?
> > There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS 3.8j,
> > which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites therefor, and
> > backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any prerequisites.
> > This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50 years
> > ago and helped Linux become what it is today. Just think for a moment
> > where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some of these
> > creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.
> >
> > Grant. . . .
> > unix || die
> >
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[kekronbekron]

Would love to know more about what your FICON buddy is working on Grant.
If you wanna share (prefer off-list?), please email :)

Unless IBM explicitly sets up college courses or NDA-tied free-roam access or 
whatever, it's only going to be the likes of zAcademy, i.e., restricted lab 
environments to basically market at the command-line, much like walking the 
dotten line in an acquarium/zoo/etc. (if you turn to your right, you can issue 
2 commands to Spark on Z)

Funny though, because isn't this exactly what Time Sharing Option was, when it 
was first introduced?

- KB

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, July 3, 2020 9:48 PM, Grant Taylor 
<023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On 7/3/20 10:12 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
>
> > I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have
> > DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for
> > z/OS for his CPC.
>
> One of the people I know is developing his own FICON connected DASD by
> reading any and all documents he can get his hands on.
>
> What do we, as the mainframe community, and IBM, as the big name, need
> to do to encourage these extremely creative, resourceful, and driven
> people better access to a functioning mainframe so that they can use
> their creative talents and drive to help further the mainframe?
>
> There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS 3.8j,
> which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites therefor, and
> backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any prerequisites.
>
> This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50 years
> ago and helped Linux become what it is today. Just think for a moment
> where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some of these
> creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.
>
>
> -
>
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
> -
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[kekronbekron]

Ehh ... docker version of z/OS (containerized z/OS) or a container daemon 
native to z/OS, i.e. building a OCI-compliant container daemon for z/OS, 
managing it with "RedHat's" podman and OpenShift/Kooberneetus?

That is, unlike zCX which is just adding support for running s390x images on 
z/OS, it's going to be native container targeting 'ibmz' or whatever, like 
s390x/x86/ARM.

I think it's the latter.
Should wash my hands for saying the C word these many times.

- KB

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, July 4, 2020 1:41 AM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

> IBM is introducing a DOCKER version of z/OS, so you own that image and
> it is loaded as needed. That should give you more isolation from PTFs
> that IBM applies to their base docker image that customers start from.
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 7:15 PM ste...@copper.net ste...@copper.net wrote:
>
> > Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 
> > that I had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on 
> > their systems.
> > Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. 
> > It was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to 
> > it, but not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few 
> > takers for the P/390.
> > The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
> > control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
> > data center.
> > If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, 
> > then one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, 
> > compiles done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another 
> > image.
> > There are costs with this that have to be overcome.
> > Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
> > and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have 
> > (or SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to 
> > migrate to another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at 
> > a good price?
> > Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
> > (separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
> > being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
> > license?
> > Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used 
> > for compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger 
> > box.
> > Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
> > will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you 
> > can get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing.
> > Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, 
> > one may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.
> > If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
> > work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
> > University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center. And I 
> > would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
> > growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
> > thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you 
> > can get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do 
> > self directed studies
> > Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have 
> > degrees in IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of 
> > some OO language, I could see this being something that might get some 
> > traction since with COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes 
> > virtually to anywhere (those of us who have been working from Home for 
> > decades already knew that).
> > And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC 
> > for a low price.
> > Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some 
> > of this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies.
> > THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for 
> > this system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere 
> > hits your problem to get an APAR/PTF.
> > Regards,
> > Steve Thompson
> > --- charl...@mcn.org wrote:
> > From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700
> > A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.
> > The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up 
> > IIRC. You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that 
> > you use as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And 
> > one on which you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- 
> > runs from shared 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Mike Schwab]

The RMF reports only what could be run on an assist processor without
change.  The assist process could be missing, busy when the work came
up, was too short a segment to switch to an assist processor.  It
doesn't show what could be run on an assist process with a rewrite.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 12:30 AM Pew, Curtis G
 wrote:
>
> On Jul 3, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
> >
> > RMF has reports of what COULD run on assist processors and if you have
> > them what DID run on assist processors.
>
> Right. But in our case what COULD run on zIIP was going to depend on whether 
> or not we could rewrite our code.
>
>
> --
> Pew, Curtis G
> curtis@austin.utexas.edu
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Jul 3, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
> 
> RMF has reports of what COULD run on assist processors and if you have
> them what DID run on assist processors.

Right. But in our case what COULD run on zIIP was going to depend on whether or 
not we could rewrite our code.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Ron Wells]

Sounds great--BUT--as IBM Marketing idiots have done in the past..look for $$ 
..instead of helping the enhancement of systems and training of new upcoming 
tech. people.
Yes this would be a great deal in the forth coming future, but I do not see IBM 
Mgnt. Thinking in the lines of the future of the Company. Only self-centered 
people looking for early retirement and $$$.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2020 11:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Mainframe co-op

** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION **


Let's turn the mainframe access discussion on it's head.

What would it take for a group of undetermined number of people to form a 
co-op, probably as a legal business entity, to acquire legal, completely above 
board, access to a mainframe (CPC / LPAR / VM) that could run z/VM with 
multiple z/OS guests there in?

The desire is to be able to provide lower cost access to VMs similar to 
traditional VPSs for hobbyists and students.

All legal.
All licensed.
All completely above board.
Depending on equipment configuration, all with proper service contracts.

I wonder just how high, or possibly low, the bar would be.

Is it even remotely something a group of 5 / 10 / 25 / ?? hobbyists could get 
together and pool their resources and do?

I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have DASD.  I 
think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for z/OS for his CPC.

What would it take for one of these people to legally provide other hobbyists / 
students access to their systems?



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Jackson, Rob]

Pennies.  The Toolkit is highly worth it.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 6:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

> Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR.

Would you consider looking at the Wikipedia article on Wylbur and adding some 
information?

> Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
> (separately chargeable as I understand it).

Yes, HLASM itself is bundled but the Toolkit is an extra charge.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
ste...@copper.net [ste...@copper.net]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that I 
had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their 
systems.

Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It 
was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, but 
not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for the 
P/390.

The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
data center.

If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, then 
one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, compiles 
done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image.

There are costs with this that have to be overcome.

Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or 
SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to 
another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price?

Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
(separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
license?

Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for 
compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box.

Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can 
get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing.

Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one 
may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.

If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center.  And I 
would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can 
get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self 
directed studies

Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees in 
IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO language, 
I could see this being something that might get some traction since with 
COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere (those 
of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that).

And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC for 
a low price.

Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some of 
this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies.

THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for this 
system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere hits your 
problem to get an APAR/PTF.


Regards,
Steve Thompson


--- charl...@mcn.org wrote:

From: Charles Mills 
To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700

A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.

The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up IIRC. 
You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that you use 
as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one on which 
you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs from shared 
read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's problem. You get 
just about 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Seymour J Metz]

> Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR.

Would you consider looking at the Wikipedia article on Wylbur and adding some 
information?

> Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
> (separately chargeable as I understand it). 

Yes, HLASM itself is bundled but the Toolkit is an extra charge.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
ste...@copper.net [ste...@copper.net]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that I 
had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their 
systems.

Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It 
was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, but 
not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for the 
P/390.

The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
data center.

If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, then 
one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, compiles 
done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image.

There are costs with this that have to be overcome.

Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or 
SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to 
another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price?

Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
(separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
license?

Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for 
compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box.

Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can 
get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing.

Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one 
may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.

If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center.  And I 
would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can 
get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self 
directed studies

Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees in 
IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO language, 
I could see this being something that might get some traction since with 
COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere (those 
of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that).

And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC for 
a low price.

Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some of 
this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies.

THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for this 
system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere hits your 
problem to get an APAR/PTF.


Regards,
Steve Thompson


--- charl...@mcn.org wrote:

From: Charles Mills 
To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700

A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.

The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up IIRC. 
You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that you use 
as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one on which 
you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs from shared 
read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's problem. You get 
just about every IBM product that you could possibly want -- again, read-only 
DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs.

For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU 
cycles, etc. entail an upcharge.

You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS 
will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Mike Schwab]

RMF has reports of what COULD run on assist processors and if you have
them what DID run on assist processors.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:06 PM Pew, Curtis G
 wrote:
>
> On Jul 3, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Jackson, Rob  wrote:
> >
> > I'm curious:  what about adding zIIPs was challenging?
>
> 1. Determining what our zIIP and non-zIIP capacity needs would be. In other 
> words, since we didn’t have zIIPs before we weren’t sure how much of our 
> workload would actually run on the zIIPs.
>
> 2. The biggest thing was that we are an Adabas/Natural shop, so we were 
> hoping to run both those products zIIP-enabled. However, we have a home-grown 
> security system that’s implemented by several thousand lines of assembler 
> code that runs as a part of the Natural session, and this code was doing 
> things like issuing SVCs and examining the current TCB, and those things 
> don’t work when you’re running zIIP-enabled. So the challenge was if we could 
> rewrite all that code to work on zIIPs. (And see “how much of our workload 
> could run zIIP-enabled” above.)
>
> We were able to get the code rewritten, and we’ve been very happily running 
> Adabas and Natural zIIP-enabled ever since.
>
>
> --
> Pew, Curtis G
> curtis@austin.utexas.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Jackson, Rob]

Ahhh.  Cool.  That makes sense.  Many thanks for the answer.  And congrats; 
sounds like it was indeed a challenge.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 5:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Jul 3, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Jackson, Rob  wrote:
>
> I'm curious:  what about adding zIIPs was challenging?

1. Determining what our zIIP and non-zIIP capacity needs would be. In other 
words, since we didn’t have zIIPs before we weren’t sure how much of our 
workload would actually run on the zIIPs.

2. The biggest thing was that we are an Adabas/Natural shop, so we were hoping 
to run both those products zIIP-enabled. However, we have a home-grown security 
system that’s implemented by several thousand lines of assembler code that runs 
as a part of the Natural session, and this code was doing things like issuing 
SVCs and examining the current TCB, and those things don’t work when you’re 
running zIIP-enabled. So the challenge was if we could rewrite all that code to 
work on zIIPs. (And see “how much of our workload could run zIIP-enabled” 
above.)

We were able to get the code rewritten, and we’ve been very happily running 
Adabas and Natural zIIP-enabled ever since.


--
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Jul 3, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Jackson, Rob  wrote:
> 
> I'm curious:  what about adding zIIPs was challenging?

1. Determining what our zIIP and non-zIIP capacity needs would be. In other 
words, since we didn’t have zIIPs before we weren’t sure how much of our 
workload would actually run on the zIIPs.

2. The biggest thing was that we are an Adabas/Natural shop, so we were hoping 
to run both those products zIIP-enabled. However, we have a home-grown security 
system that’s implemented by several thousand lines of assembler code that runs 
as a part of the Natural session, and this code was doing things like issuing 
SVCs and examining the current TCB, and those things don’t work when you’re 
running zIIP-enabled. So the challenge was if we could rewrite all that code to 
work on zIIPs. (And see “how much of our workload could run zIIP-enabled” 
above.)

We were able to get the code rewritten, and we’ve been very happily running 
Adabas and Natural zIIP-enabled ever since.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Charles Mills]

> One can't control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is 
> controlled by the data center.

Right, one could not apply a patch to the nucleus. It is on a R/O volume. But 
you have pretty good control IMHO:
- SYS1.PARMLIB/PROCLIB/etc. is your own. You can do anything you want there and 
IPL as many times as you want.
- I suspect (but have never done it) you could fiddle with concatenations and 
so forth and have your own writable copy of some "OS-type" things.
- You can have any current version of z/OS that you want, and stay with an old 
version as long as you want.
- I get the feeling that IBM would work with you if you said "we can't tolerate 
PTF XX1234 just yet -- can you hold off for us?"

But I'm not here to sell Dallas on behalf of IBM. Keep it in mind if $550/month 
is not too rich for your blood. But I was mostly describing it to give a 
possible baseline for discussions of "what would a mainframe co-op look like?"

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of ste...@copper.net
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that I 
had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their 
systems.

Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It 
was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, but 
not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for the 
P/390. 

The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
data center. 

If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, then 
one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, compiles 
done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image. 

There are costs with this that have to be overcome. 

Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or 
SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to 
another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price?

Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
(separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
license?

Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for 
compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box.

Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can 
get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing. 

Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one 
may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.

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COBOL growing? was Re: Mainframe co-op

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 3 Jul 2020 12:15:16 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
ste...@copper.net (ste...@copper.net) wrote:

>> snip
>
>Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
>(separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
>being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
>license?
>
>snip
>
>If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
>work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
>University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center.  And I 
>would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
>growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
>thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can 
>get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self 
>directed studies
>

As someone who still follows comp.lang.cobol and vaguely keeps track
of the ob market, I am skeptical about the growth of COBOL especially
for new projects. It would seem more productive to have customizable
packages that run on non-mainframe (z and other) systems which are at
the OS level native UTF8 or UTF16.  I would like to be proven wrong.
Incidentally with the 2002 and 2014 language enhancements COBOL is a
good tool for dealing with SMF records.

Clark Morris 
>Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees 
>in IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO 
>language, I could see this being something that might get some traction since 
>with COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere 
>(those of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that). 
>
>And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC for 
>a low price.
>
>Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some of 
>this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies. 
>
>THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for this 
>system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere hits your 
>problem to get an APAR/PTF. 
>
>
>Regards,
>Steve Thompson
>
>
>--- charl...@mcn.org wrote:
>
>From: Charles Mills 
>To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
>Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700
>
>A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.
>
>The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up 
>IIRC. You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that 
>you use as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one 
>on which you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs 
>from shared read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's 
>problem. You get just about every IBM product that you could possibly want -- 
>again, read-only DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs.
>
>For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU 
>cycles, etc. entail an upcharge.
>
>You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS 
>will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never done it, so 
>I don't know, but I would assume IBM has some way of getting you back running. 
>You "own" RACF. You can have as many userid's as you care to define. If you 
>want to experiment with permissions in any way you choose, go at it. IBM 
>provides very limited support: (1) if you need help you can ask by e-mail: 
>sometimes you get great help, sometimes not; (2) no PMR support. You are not a 
>z/OS licensee and thus not entitled to PMR support. I would assume that if you 
>had some fatal problem you could go route (1) and get IBM to address it 
>somehow: I have no experience.
>
>It is a good option for an individual or small company just a little above 
>your intended price point. You have to a certain extent the best of both 
>worlds: you have a z/OS that you can do with as you wish just as if you owned 
>the box; and you have IBM doing the z/OS PTFs and basic installs and volume 
>backups and so forth that I at least don't care to do. You do not have to do 
>any initial install: your z/OS will IPL on day one.
>
>It is current hardware. I believe we are currently running on a z14.
>
>There are also offerings for VM, VSE and Linux IIRC but I am not familiar with 
>them.
>
>You cannot do "production." You can let customers on for demos, but that is 
>it. (Speaking from memory; I am not an IBM attorney.) You have to be a 
>"software vendor" developing a "mainframe product" but my impression is that 
>IBM's bar is pretty low: you don't have to be BMC or CA.
>
>You might consider using that as a model. I think it is a GREAT starting point 
>for thinking about this. You might ask yourself "how do we tune that model so 
>that we could get the price down to 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Jackson, Rob]

I'm curious:  what about adding zIIPs was challenging?

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Jul 3, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jesse 1 Robinson  wrote:
>
> Ah, software cost. I still remember the first CPU upgrade after the 
> insinuation of tiered pricing. We budgeted for the hardware and extracted 
> approval from management. Then we were bowled over when the software bills 
> rolled in. Of course it was our fault for not considering the budget busting 
> impact of increased MIPS. Not sure IBM thought it through. We now refrain 
> from hardware upgrades because of software costs.

I just gave a presentation to our user community about the z10 BC → z14 ZR1 
upgrade we did last August. One of the most challenging things about this 
upgrade was our z14 has zIIPs, which we didn’t have before. But try explaining 
zIIPs and CP capacity levels, or processor characterization in general! Those 
are totally irrational, except in the context of how mainframe software is 
priced.


--
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Tony Harminc]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:45, Grant Taylor
<023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out
> tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage
> / CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.

It's not obvious that the licence that such a business has from IBM
would allow that. There have been questions on this list from time to
time about where someone can go to buy commercial z/OS time, and there
are a few answers. But it's still not clear what licence such
providers may have with IBM.

> I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is
> perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the
> smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.

The z/PDT (both versions) is explicitly licensed for non-production
use only. Even routine production builds for running on Real Iron are
proscribed.

Tony H.

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Jackson, Rob]

I think _I_ know the answer to the big question for IBM on Z.  I do suspect 
it's incompatible with their culture.  I think they're bound and determined to 
run the platform into the ground.

I would gladly volunteer my free time to admin a public platform and support 
users; I doubt I am alone.  I grew up in the UNIX/Windoze world.  This platform 
is superior.  I would that it will continue.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tomasz Rola
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 1:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 10:18:13AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
[...]
> There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS 
> 3.8j, which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites therefor, 
> and backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any 
> prerequisites.
>
> This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50 
> years ago and helped Linux become what it is today.  Just think for a 
> moment where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some of 
> these creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.

Perhaps this kind of spirit is not compitible with spirit of IBM?

Perhaps one not only needs to imagine what could have happened, but also why 
something does not happen / have not happened?

No, I do not have the answers. I think a good question is worth a thousand 
answers, perhaps.

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: syslogd assist

[John S. Giltner, Jr.]

IIRC the problem is somebody is attempting to ssh/sftp in using a user-id that 
does not exist on your system, which means the password they entered is 
invalid.   Is your system accessible  via the public Internet?  Somebody may be 
attempting to break into your system.

If you don't have auth logging, you may want to add:

*.*.auth.*  "/somedirectory/somefile"

And you can see failed logon attempts.

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Mike Schwab]

IBM is introducing a DOCKER version of z/OS, so you own that image and
it is loaded as needed.  That should give you more isolation from PTFs
that IBM applies to their base docker image that customers start from.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 7:15 PM ste...@copper.net  wrote:
>
> Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that 
> I had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their 
> systems.
>
> Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It 
> was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, 
> but not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for 
> the P/390.
>
> The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
> control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
> data center.
>
> If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, 
> then one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, 
> compiles done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image.
>
> There are costs with this that have to be overcome.
>
> Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
> and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or 
> SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to 
> another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price?
>
> Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
> (separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
> being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
> license?
>
> Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for 
> compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box.
>
> Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
> will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can 
> get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing.
>
> Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one 
> may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.
>
> If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
> work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
> University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center.  And I 
> would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
> growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
> thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can 
> get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self 
> directed studies
>
> Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees 
> in IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO 
> language, I could see this being something that might get some traction since 
> with COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere 
> (those of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that).
>
> And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC 
> for a low price.
>
> Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some 
> of this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies.
>
> THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for 
> this system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere 
> hits your problem to get an APAR/PTF.
>
>
> Regards,
> Steve Thompson
>
>
> --- charl...@mcn.org wrote:
>
> From: Charles Mills 
> To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700
>
> A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.
>
> The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up 
> IIRC. You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that 
> you use as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And 
> one on which you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- 
> runs from shared read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are 
> IBM's problem. You get just about every IBM product that you could possibly 
> want -- again, read-only DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs.
>
> For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU 
> cycles, etc. entail an upcharge.
>
> You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS 
> will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never done it, so 
> I don't know, but I would assume IBM has some way of getting you back 
> running. You "own" RACF. You can have as many userid's as you care to define. 
> If you want to experiment with permissions in any 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Jul 3, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jesse 1 Robinson  wrote:
> 
> Ah, software cost. I still remember the first CPU upgrade after the 
> insinuation of tiered pricing. We budgeted for the hardware and extracted 
> approval from management. Then we were bowled over when the software bills 
> rolled in. Of course it was our fault for not considering the budget busting 
> impact of increased MIPS. Not sure IBM thought it through. We now refrain 
> from hardware upgrades because of software costs. 

I just gave a presentation to our user community about the z10 BC → z14 ZR1 
upgrade we did last August. One of the most challenging things about this 
upgrade was our z14 has zIIPs, which we didn’t have before. But try explaining 
zIIPs and CP capacity levels, or processor characterization in general! Those 
are totally irrational, except in the context of how mainframe software is 
priced.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Jesse 1 Robinson]

Ah, software cost. I still remember the first CPU upgrade after the insinuation 
of tiered pricing. We budgeted for the hardware and extracted approval from 
management. Then we were bowled over when the software bills rolled in. Of 
course it was our fault for not considering the budget busting impact of 
increased MIPS. Not sure IBM thought it through. We now refrain from hardware 
upgrades because of software costs. 

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gibney, Dave
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 11:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Mainframe co-op

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

My management decided against it, but a couple years ago, a new low tier  z13 
and more than enough DASD for us would have been around $400K or so.
Unfortunately, the z/OS licensing was sill more than twice this.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Grant Taylor
> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2020 11:27 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op
>
> On 7/3/20 11:52 AM, scott Ford wrote:
> > I have think more or less along the same lines Grant., since I have 
> > retired
>
> Will you please elaborate on what you think and why you think it.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[ste...@copper.net]

Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that I 
had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their 
systems.

Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It 
was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, but 
not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for the 
P/390. 

The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't 
control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the 
data center. 

If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, then 
one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, compiles 
done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image. 

There are costs with this that have to be overcome. 

Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM 
and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or 
SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to 
another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price?

Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit 
(separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers 
being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development 
license?

Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for 
compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box.

Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they 
will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can 
get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing. 

Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one 
may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload.

If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I 
work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a 
University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center.  And I 
would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still 
growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing 
thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can 
get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self 
directed studies

Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees in 
IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO language, 
I could see this being something that might get some traction since with 
COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere (those 
of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that). 

And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC for 
a low price.

Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some of 
this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies. 

THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for this 
system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere hits your 
problem to get an APAR/PTF. 


Regards,
Steve Thompson


--- charl...@mcn.org wrote:

From: Charles Mills 
To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700

A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.

The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up IIRC. 
You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that you use 
as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one on which 
you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs from shared 
read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's problem. You get 
just about every IBM product that you could possibly want -- again, read-only 
DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs.

For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU 
cycles, etc. entail an upcharge.

You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS 
will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never done it, so I 
don't know, but I would assume IBM has some way of getting you back running. 
You "own" RACF. You can have as many userid's as you care to define. If you 
want to experiment with permissions in any way you choose, go at it. IBM 
provides very limited support: (1) if you need help you can ask by e-mail: 
sometimes you get great help, sometimes not; (2) no PMR support. You are not a 
z/OS licensee and thus not entitled to PMR support. I would assume that if you 
had some fatal problem you could go route (1) and get IBM to address it 
somehow: I have no experience.

It is a good option for an individual or small company 

Re: Mainframe co-op

[Charles Mills]

A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas.

The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up IIRC. 
You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that you use 
as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one on which 
you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs from shared 
read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's problem. You get 
just about every IBM product that you could possibly want -- again, read-only 
DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs.

For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU 
cycles, etc. entail an upcharge.

You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS 
will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never done it, so I 
don't know, but I would assume IBM has some way of getting you back running. 
You "own" RACF. You can have as many userid's as you care to define. If you 
want to experiment with permissions in any way you choose, go at it. IBM 
provides very limited support: (1) if you need help you can ask by e-mail: 
sometimes you get great help, sometimes not; (2) no PMR support. You are not a 
z/OS licensee and thus not entitled to PMR support. I would assume that if you 
had some fatal problem you could go route (1) and get IBM to address it 
somehow: I have no experience.

It is a good option for an individual or small company just a little above your 
intended price point. You have to a certain extent the best of both worlds: you 
have a z/OS that you can do with as you wish just as if you owned the box; and 
you have IBM doing the z/OS PTFs and basic installs and volume backups and so 
forth that I at least don't care to do. You do not have to do any initial 
install: your z/OS will IPL on day one.

It is current hardware. I believe we are currently running on a z14.

There are also offerings for VM, VSE and Linux IIRC but I am not familiar with 
them.

You cannot do "production." You can let customers on for demos, but that is it. 
(Speaking from memory; I am not an IBM attorney.) You have to be a "software 
vendor" developing a "mainframe product" but my impression is that IBM's bar is 
pretty low: you don't have to be BMC or CA.

You might consider using that as a model. I think it is a GREAT starting point 
for thinking about this. You might ask yourself "how do we tune that model so 
that we could get the price down to $X?" ... whatever you think your $X should 
be. And if you wanted to involve IBM in your discussions the Dallas folks might 
be the right place to start.

http://dtsc.dfw.ibm.com/MVSDS/'HTTPD2.ENROL.PUBLIC.SHTML(ZOSRDP)' 

Hopefully that link works. I am not sure PDS's make the best Web repositories. 
(Gasp! Mainframe heresy!)

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 10:50 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op

On 7/3/20 11:13 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Interesting. Some questions come to mind.

Discussion is good.

> Would it have to have current software to attract the open source 
> community?

I don't think that bleeding edge is needed in any way shape or form.

My personal interest would be something in the z/OS family.  The bottom 
end of what is still supported would be a minimum desired version.  But 
I think anything in z/OS is better than was is readily available now.

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Gibney, Dave]

My management decided against it, but a couple years ago, a new low tier  z13 
and more than enough DASD for us would have been around $400K or so. 
Unfortunately, the z/OS licensing was sill more than twice this.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Grant Taylor
> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2020 11:27 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op
> 
> On 7/3/20 11:52 AM, scott Ford wrote:
> > I have think more or less along the same lines Grant., since I have retired
> 
> Will you please elaborate on what you think and why you think it.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/3/20 11:52 AM, scott Ford wrote:

I have think more or less along the same lines Grant., since I have retired


Will you please elaborate on what you think and why you think it.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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AW: TN3270 clients for Linux and OS/2

[Immo]

If you can install a Java VM on those OSs you can try JProtector from XPS
Software GmbH. Let me know if you'll face any problems.
Regards,
Michael

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  Im Auftrag von
Seymour J Metz
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 1. Juli 2020 12:48
An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Betreff: TN3270 clients for Linux and OS/2

Can anybody suggest goof TN3270 clients for Linux and OS/2? 

On Linux I use KDE and would prefer something written for QT or at least
X11. For OS/2 I'd prefer a PM application. In both cases I'd like the
ability to configure both the primary and secondary screen size.



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[scott Ford]

I have think more or less along the same lines Grant., since I have retired
..
Scott

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:22 PM Tomasz Rola  wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 10:18:13AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> [...]
> > There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS
> > 3.8j, which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites
> > therefor, and backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any
> > prerequisites.
> >
> > This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50
> > years ago and helped Linux become what it is today.  Just think for
> > a moment where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some
> > of these creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.
>
> Perhaps this kind of spirit is not compitible with spirit of IBM?
>
> Perhaps one not only needs to imagine what could have happened, but
> also why something does not happen / have not happened?
>
> No, I do not have the answers. I think a good question is worth a
> thousand answers, perhaps.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/3/20 11:13 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Interesting. Some questions come to mind.


Discussion is good.

Would it have to have current software to attract the open source 
community?


I don't think that bleeding edge is needed in any way shape or form.

My personal interest would be something in the z/OS family.  The bottom 
end of what is still supported would be a minimum desired version.  But 
I think anything in z/OS is better than was is readily available now.



What sort of support would be available from IBM and from volunteers?


I would not assume any support from IBM for things like PMRs.  Though I 
suppose that is a possible option.


I would think that much of the support would come from the community.

Would IBM partially subsidize it if you could show that it would 
expand the market?


I have no idea.

I would not count on any such support to get started.  As such, any 
support from IBM would be icing on the cake.



How would you make it known to the open source community?


I don't know.

I would think that members commenting about it on various social media 
channels would be a good start.


It would probably need it's own mailing list and / or discussion channels.

Would it be involved with the Academic community and would it 
coordinate with IBM academic programs?


I don't object to such.  But I don't want it to be beholden to such either.

Would it include a repository or would it rely on, e.g., Bitbucket, 
GitLab, Phabricator, SourceForge?


I think it would behoove the project for it to offer it's own 
repositories and similar services; mailing list, chat, etc.  The idea 
being to avoid external dependency.


That being said, I don't see any reason that members couldn't choose to 
use their own external repository, etc.



What sort of infrastructure would it need? Listserv? Online courses?


I see the current desired things:

 - repository
 - web page
 - mailing list(s)
- I really like Mailman's ability to do topic based mailing lists. 
Subscribe, pick your topic(s), etc.

 - chat would be nice
- irc
- slack
- other

Ironically, I think all of these could be hosted on the mainframe 
itself.  Possibly Linux on z.


I would like to see options for people to connect their guest VM to the 
fledgling HECnet that Moshix is touting.  I think these types of 
activities allow people to grow and learn in atypical areas.


Want to play with DASD replication?  Sure.  --  I naively assume that 
something could be set up under z/VM to allow a z/OS guest to play with 
multiple DASDs to test and learn about a concept.


Want to play with IPL parameters, go ahead.

Want to play with HCD, yep, you can do that too.  --  I naively assume 
that IOCDS / HCD is still a thing in a z/OS guest VM.


Would user assistance be free, chargeable or multi-tiered, with simple 
questions and bug reporting being free?


All very good questions.

I would hope that there is some free best effort much like the existing 
community.  I would be happy to see some professional / consultation 
services available much people can hire a tutor for many different 
subjects.  I would expect those arrangements to be between the guest VM 
subscriber and the ""tutor.


I would want to avoid this overarching co-op from being a profit center. 
 The purpose is to make things accessible and as affordable as 
reasonably possible to do so.  I chose "co-op" on purpose.  At least 
based on my understanding of the term.


I would want to put things in place to prevent people from abusing 
services and / or using guest VMs to enable them to make a profit by 
hosting line of business applications.


I don't know if this is even possible or not.  But perhaps put a 
resource quota that only allows the guest VM to be active 20-25 days a 
month.  You pick when it's convenient for your guest VM to be shut down. 
 But hopefully that would prevent businesses from abusing it for 
production.


This is also where the low MIPS comes into play.  Enough for a single 
user to do some small things on top of whatever the guest OS needs.


I'm sure that there are lot's of issues that I've overlooked, but if 
this goes anywhere I expect that others will think of them. I hope 
that it actually takes off.


I do too.

I'd love to learn more.  I'd love to subscribe to such a system.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Tomasz Rola]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 10:18:13AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
[...]
> There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS
> 3.8j, which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites
> therefor, and backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any
> prerequisites.
> 
> This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50
> years ago and helped Linux become what it is today.  Just think for
> a moment where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some
> of these creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.

Perhaps this kind of spirit is not compitible with spirit of IBM?

Perhaps one not only needs to imagine what could have happened, but
also why something does not happen / have not happened?

No, I do not have the answers. I think a good question is worth a
thousand answers, perhaps.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Seymour J Metz]

Interesting. Some questions come to mind.

Would it have to have current software to attract the open source community?

What sort of support would be available from IBM and from volunteers?

Would IBM partially subsidize it if you could show that it would expand the 
market?

How would you make it known to the open source community?

Would it be involved with the Academic community and would it coordinate with 
IBM academic programs?

Would it include a repository or would it rely on, e.g., Bitbucket, GitLab, 
Phabricator, SourceForge?

What sort of infrastructure would it need? Listserv? Online courses? 

Would user assistance be free, chargeable or multi-tiered, with simple 
questions and bug reporting being free?

I'm sure that there are lot's of issues that I've overlooked, but if this goes 
anywhere I expect that others will think of them. I hope that it actually takes 
off.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Mainframe co-op

Let's turn the mainframe access discussion on it's head.

What would it take for a group of undetermined number of people to form
a co-op, probably as a legal business entity, to acquire legal,
completely above board, access to a mainframe (CPC / LPAR / VM) that
could run z/VM with multiple z/OS guests there in?

The desire is to be able to provide lower cost access to VMs similar to
traditional VPSs for hobbyists and students.

All legal.
All licensed.
All completely above board.
Depending on equipment configuration, all with proper service contracts.

I wonder just how high, or possibly low, the bar would be.

Is it even remotely something a group of 5 / 10 / 25 / ?? hobbyists
could get together and pool their resources and do?

I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have
DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for
z/OS for his CPC.

What would it take for one of these people to legally provide other
hobbyists / students access to their systems?



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

[Bob Bridges]

I own myself second place in this exchange.  And it occurred to me only
after I hit  that I could have written you privately, rather than
publicly; my apologies for that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk
down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then
look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.  -Jesse Jackson, 1993
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 08:40

> Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
>but is very sensitive about his own. 

Actually, I've been know to thank people for correcting me, something Mr.
Mills might consider doing.

> I perceive no hostility in Mr Mills' post, 

Examine his posting history and you'll discover the source of my hostility.

> Go ahead and flame me immoderately

Should you do something to warrant it, then I'll consider it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:24 AM

Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
but is very sensitive about his own.  Most of us, it seems to me, forgive
him and ignore it.

You did cross a line, though, Seymour, this time.  I perceive no hostility
in Mr Mills' post, and yours positively bristled with it.  I don't think
that's hypocrisy on your part, just self-blindness.  Ease back, man, and be
less eager to posture.  Go ahead and flame me immoderately, now, and then
forget it.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 13:45

> Why do you have to be so hostile?

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no
reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned
it.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

---
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

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Re: Mainframe co-op

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/3/20 10:12 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have 
DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for 
z/OS for his CPC.


One of the people I know is developing his own FICON connected DASD by 
reading any and all documents he can get his hands on.


What do we, as the mainframe community, and IBM, as the big name, need 
to do to encourage these extremely creative, resourceful, and driven 
people better access to a functioning mainframe so that they can use 
their creative talents and drive to help further the mainframe?


There are a group of hobbyists and enthusiasts that have taken MVS 3.8j, 
which decidedly does not include REXX or prerequisites therefor, and 
backported (?) REXX to it, including re-creating any prerequisites.


This is the creative and enthusiastic spirit that created Unix 50 years 
ago and helped Linux become what it is today.  Just think for a moment 
where the mainframe could be in 10 or 20 years if even some of these 
creative efforts were directed at enhancing the mainframe.




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Mainframe co-op

[Grant Taylor]

Let's turn the mainframe access discussion on it's head.

What would it take for a group of undetermined number of people to form 
a co-op, probably as a legal business entity, to acquire legal, 
completely above board, access to a mainframe (CPC / LPAR / VM) that 
could run z/VM with multiple z/OS guests there in?


The desire is to be able to provide lower cost access to VMs similar to 
traditional VPSs for hobbyists and students.


All legal.
All licensed.
All completely above board.
Depending on equipment configuration, all with proper service contracts.

I wonder just how high, or possibly low, the bar would be.

Is it even remotely something a group of 5 / 10 / 25 / ?? hobbyists 
could get together and pool their resources and do?


I know multiple people that have CPCs.  But they don't currently have 
DASD.  I think at least one of them has a line on legal licenses for 
z/OS for his CPC.


What would it take for one of these people to legally provide other 
hobbyists / students access to their systems?




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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/3/20 4:41 AM, R.S. wrote:

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful.


I strongly suspect that a personal tiny guest VM would suffice for most 
in this camp.  I know it would for me.



So, "illegal" Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.


There are some that /want/ to do the illegal thing.  I doubt much can be 
done for them.


But the people that want to do a SYSGEN or mess with IOCDS or replacing 
DASD to learn would probably be content with a guest VM and don't 
/actually/ want to be /illegal/.


Notice how hobbyists and students probably completely fall into the tiny 
guest VM category.  People that want to do illegal things are going to 
do illegal things.  Let's find a good option for hobbyists and students.


2. Free is much better even than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is 
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some 
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it.


I believe that this registration, contract, etc. are perfectly 
acceptable for most, if not all, hobbyists and students.


Free without any obligations is much more attractive. That would 
induce many young people to just "play and try" this platform. Just 
for fun. Or just because it may help with some university duties. This 
is the method to make mainframe more popular or at least known to 
young people.


I agree that this level of freedom is better than the registration, 
contract, etc.  But I don't know if it's /needed/ the same way that 
anything, even with said registration, contract, etc., is needed.


Where's the tiny guest VM w/ 1 MIPS more than the OS itself needs?

If I'm off base with 1 MIPS, where's the guest VM that has the same user 
experience as far as performance is concerned as a Raspberry Pi does for 
running Linux (et al.)?  Read:  Fast enough to learn on, but decidedly 
WAY TOO SLOW to do anything real on.


3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However 
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The 
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.) 
on such system.


I would absolutely LOVE it to find a tiny guest VM and access to someone 
like an instructor that can help guide people and help them avoid common 
pitfalls.  I would normally associate this with a learning institution 
and professor.  "Yes, you can do , but you want to not do  
because of .  Why don't you try this  
that will produce a  instead."


Or some company deliver some software products with no other "legal 
mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes, illegal.


4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in 
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences, 
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS 
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost 
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and 
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in 
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes 
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the 
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but 
not TSO account.


I am thankful for the Master the Mainframe course / competition allowing 
registered students to continue to access the mainframe after the 
competition ends up until the point that the SYSPROGs reconfigure the 
system for the next year's MtM course / competition.  But, this is only 
temporary, and it doesn't provide the type of access that I'd like to 
have to play / learn / grow.


Students have the freedom to crash / break / rebuild things as many ways 
as they can think of with the aforementioned MS products.




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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Charles Mills]

+1

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/2/20 11:34 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or 
> some of the other expensive hobbies.

I don't have figures handy, but I strongly suspect that all of the above 
don't average out at $5,000 a year.  I suspect they come in considerably 
lower than that.

> People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.

Even that is only 20% of the cost of z/PDT.  You probably (could) get 
much more real world use out of your phone than you do z/PDT.

> ... I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify the cost, then it 
> might seem too much.

It's not only the matter of justification.  There is also the fact that 
some, if not many, people interested in mainframe simply don't have that 
type of money to put towards an interest.  Further, for many, the 
interest and probably casual at best, especially early on.

Asking someone who's been spending a lot of time on the mainframe to 
spend $5k / year who is willing to do that in lieu of a Harley / boat / 
sports car, sure.  But that is a much smaller segment of the market.

Remember the unofficial layers eight and nine of the OSI model.  Eight 
being politics and nine being money.  They are in that order because if 
you can't beg, borrow, or steal the money, you can't spend it on something.

> Although, the alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I 
> would consider to be an option at all.

I'm not advocating for an illegal option.

I am advocating for a new and different legal option.

I'd like to see something that would allow me to access a contemporary 
z/OS / z/VM system with about 1 MIPS of user space processes (I don't 
know what the OS needs these days).  I'd be willing to pay $20 to $100 a 
month for that.  Where is the mainframe VPS that is approachable for 
hobbyists and students?  Even $100 a month is rich for many hobbyists 
and students.  But that's at effectively five times more accessible than 
a z/PDT.

All of the mainframe VPS options that I've seen are targeting businesses 
that are going to spend 4+ figures a month.  Which again excludes 
hobbyists and student.

I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out 
tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage 
/ CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.

I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is 
perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the 
smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.

Unfortunately, it's this smaller / lower end market that /needs/ to have 
their interest captured, lest the current guard will find that there are 
no new guard to be had.

Master the Mainframe is a nice thing for the first 3-9 months.  But 
where does someone who has completed MtM turn to after the 9 months 
before they have a job.  Even when they do have a job, they probably 
can't play / learn / grow on the work system like they could a personal 
guest VM.




-- 
Grant. . . .
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Grant Taylor]

On 7/2/20 11:34 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or 
some of the other expensive hobbies.


I don't have figures handy, but I strongly suspect that all of the above 
don't average out at $5,000 a year.  I suspect they come in considerably 
lower than that.



People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.


Even that is only 20% of the cost of z/PDT.  You probably (could) get 
much more real world use out of your phone than you do z/PDT.


... I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify the cost, then it 
might seem too much.


It's not only the matter of justification.  There is also the fact that 
some, if not many, people interested in mainframe simply don't have that 
type of money to put towards an interest.  Further, for many, the 
interest and probably casual at best, especially early on.


Asking someone who's been spending a lot of time on the mainframe to 
spend $5k / year who is willing to do that in lieu of a Harley / boat / 
sports car, sure.  But that is a much smaller segment of the market.


Remember the unofficial layers eight and nine of the OSI model.  Eight 
being politics and nine being money.  They are in that order because if 
you can't beg, borrow, or steal the money, you can't spend it on something.


Although, the alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I 
would consider to be an option at all.


I'm not advocating for an illegal option.

I am advocating for a new and different legal option.

I'd like to see something that would allow me to access a contemporary 
z/OS / z/VM system with about 1 MIPS of user space processes (I don't 
know what the OS needs these days).  I'd be willing to pay $20 to $100 a 
month for that.  Where is the mainframe VPS that is approachable for 
hobbyists and students?  Even $100 a month is rich for many hobbyists 
and students.  But that's at effectively five times more accessible than 
a z/PDT.


All of the mainframe VPS options that I've seen are targeting businesses 
that are going to spend 4+ figures a month.  Which again excludes 
hobbyists and student.


I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out 
tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage 
/ CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.


I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is 
perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the 
smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.


Unfortunately, it's this smaller / lower end market that /needs/ to have 
their interest captured, lest the current guard will find that there are 
no new guard to be had.


Master the Mainframe is a nice thing for the first 3-9 months.  But 
where does someone who has completed MtM turn to after the 9 months 
before they have a job.  Even when they do have a job, they probably 
can't play / learn / grow on the work system like they could a personal 
guest VM.





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unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Seymour J Metz]

Well, one of us does.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

I see you have a lot of free time and you decided to spend it on
pointless quarrels.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






W dniu 03.07.2020 o 15:45, Seymour J Metz pisze:
> You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.
>
>> And read whole message,
> I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
> ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
> Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment
>
> W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:
>>> The problem is not in the money, not only here.
>> Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
>> Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not 
>> chump change.
> Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
> And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>


==

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tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1S2wXg0vy9-eIYdGBpAv8HXnJ2pE9BavK4Kpqiwj_8d-0eeCsoUJPmOLMMtdUNu7Gx64WXGc4kppO24eEZHbYQPNFxwWWZsHzPqPlNYGdO_Y4Olj8TSch1exr0bfeDHvNSGWogpGW8C-A8Hqb1BtwfYpb8v0QINGDEf8rmIHJFRFurKTiWR6I9_DWDk1Gf8PXwU6ogiMIULSUGp5at6VU2q3nsG6ovzdCQ8zwK6GlY_xbtcpcHUM2ahHbxsaojms8S3bB6ZS8sSmASP73gOimac7Mi7RzXbWFjHz4t-DBZRlh4RXM90uGplf_eU7CgSEITn6CpcK28Pj0yVgfh6mzgJbaUuxadqS77g0xMiG1WlJBk8oeHfxlSKoEJ3prCq57Q2grhIpsNcYKLy3CmD-lCdGHmX2Sa1PerCE9Eoql0xlcr8UFR2VnUNAOGzMrPUUQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
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Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 
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Re: Using IEBCOPY COPYGROUP to unload a PDS member with aliases

[R.S.]

W dniu 02.07.2020 o 20:13, Tom Conley pisze:

On 7/2/2020 2:06 PM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

How about the original question -
Is there a way to unload from a PDS the "group" (name plus aliases) 
for a

given member name and reload it to another PDS ?



Kirk,

If you don't have it already, you should install PDS (file 182 at 
cbttape.org).  It has member grouping capability, and supports the 
XMIT command to create an XMIT OUTDATASET that you can transfer and 
RECEIVE INDATASET on the system.  Contact me offline if you want to 
pursue this further.


Well, I don't know the answer, I'm not even sure about the question.
However it is possible to copy name+aliases from one PDS to another.
It is also possible to copy from PDSU to PDS and then copy name+aliases 
to another PDS. Two step, but quite quick IMHO.
It is also possible to copy PDS to PDSU (yes, it may be that temporary 
PDS with name+aliases only).

...

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

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tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

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Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
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025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[R.S.]

I see you have a lot of free time and you decided to spend it on 
pointless quarrels.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






W dniu 03.07.2020 o 15:45, Seymour J Metz pisze:

You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.


And read whole message,

I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:

The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.

Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
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tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
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mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Seymour J Metz]

You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.

> And read whole message,

I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:
>> The problem is not in the money, not only here.
> Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
> Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not 
> chump change.

Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[R.S.]

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:

The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.


Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

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tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
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NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

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Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: IPSEC Configuration and Performance

[Peter Vander Woude]

We did setup an ipsec tunnel between our z/os system down to a group of 
devices.  Our environment may be different in that the tunnel goes to our 
firewall, which the devices are in a secure vlan behind the firewall.

a couple of notes:
1) the ipsec tunnel definition is between your base (i.e./ primary) ip address 
and the remote end
2) your cics traffic will need to be coming from a different ip address (i.e. 
also referenced as "interesting traffic").  Use SRCIP to set the ip address of 
the cics region (if cics is the session initiator).  If the cics is the target, 
just make sure the listener is this secondary ip address

Peter

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Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

[Seymour J Metz]

> Charles clearly meant it as "If one were to..."

I'm not convinced that he meant that, and if he did it was certainly *NOT* 
clear.

> comity

I have a limited supply of courtesy; I reserve it for those who do not engage 
in gratuitous insults. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
zMan [zedgarhoo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

So you interpreted "If you are going to..." as "Because you are"; Charles
clearly meant it as "If one were to..."

English can be ambiguous, but comity will get you a lot further than
knee-jerk defensiveness. This applies in real life, too, and might explain
some folks' employment difficulties. Just sayin'.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> > Why do you have to be so hostile?
>
> Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But
> when you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see
> no reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent
> messages.
>
> > I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
> mentioned it.
>
> You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as
> hardware compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I
> mentioned it.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
> compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
> issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
> architecture and instruction set.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of
> Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
> compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
> moved above line.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> > The only thing which might not work would
> > be something which was CPU speed dependent.
>
> That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
> interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
> surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
> IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.
>
> --
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>
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>


--
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Re: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

[Seymour J Metz]

> Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
>but is very sensitive about his own. 

Actually, I've been know to thank people for correcting me, something Mr. Mills 
might consider doing.

> I perceive no hostility in Mr Mills' post, 

Examine his posting history and you'll discover the source of my hostility.

> Go ahead and flame me immoderately

Should you do something to warrant it, then I'll consider it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
but is very sensitive about his own.  Most of us, it seems to me, forgive
him and ignore it.

You did cross a line, though, Seymour, this time.  I perceive no hostility
in Mr Mills' post, and yours positively bristled with it.  I don't think
that's hypocrisy on your part, just self-blindness.  Ease back, man, and be
less eager to posture.  Go ahead and flame me immoderately, now, and then
forget it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The wit of conversation consists more in finding it in others than
showing a great deal yourself.  He who goes out of your company pleased with
his own facetiousness and ingenuity will the sooner come into it again.
-Poor Richard's Almanack, 1756 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 13:45

> Why do you have to be so hostile?

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no
reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned
it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

---
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

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Re: SuperWylbur Users

[John S. Giltner, Jr.]

Dennis,

I would really like to help, but we are at z/OS 2.3 and don't plan on starting 
our migration to the next z/OS until early next year.  Even though SSI is not 
supporting z/OS 2.4 and beyond, I'm hoping to keep SuperWylbur running for 
awhile.

Please contact me directly with any finding and fixes. 

--
John Giltner.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[Seymour J Metz]

> The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 6:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 07:34, Brian Westerman pisze:
> How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or some of 
> the other expensive hobbies.  People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new 
> phone.  I did get a discount on that, but I suppose you are correct, if you 
> can't justify the cost, then it might seem too much.  Although, the 
> alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I would consider to be an 
> option at all.

The problem is not in the money, not only here.
It is matter of human mentality. Many aspects of that.

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful. So, "illegal"
Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.

2. Free is much better even  than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it. Free without any
obligations is much more attractive. That would induce many young people
to just "play and try" this platform. Just for fun. Or just because it
may help with some university duties. This is the method to make
mainframe more popular or at least known to young people.

3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.)
on such system. Or some company deliver some software products with no
other "legal mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes,
illegal.

4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences,
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but
not TSO account.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
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Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 
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Re: What is the real size of a 3390-27 and 3390-54

[R.S.]

W dniu 02.07.2020 o 23:51, Tony Thigpen pisze:
I am seeing some DS8000s where a mod-27 is defined as 30051 cylinders. 
I am seeing other sites were the mod-27 is defined with 32760 cylinders.


I know the architectural limit of a mod-27 is 32760 cylinders, but if 
you work with multiples of mod-1 units, the 30051 number make sense.


I also know that when you use the DSCLI, you can specify any number of 
cylinders. What I don't know is what the old GUI did.


So, some questions:

1) What size is a mod-27 in your shop?
2) Was your DASD allocated using the DSCLI or the GUI?




As other said: mod-27  32760 cyl,  mod-54  65520 cyl. What I missed: 
this is *MAXIMUM*.
There is no real mod-27, so this is only concept. And in real world you 
have to emulate such volume on some disk array. Disk arrays allow to 
make smaller volumes - not 32760, but maybe 32001 cyl. Why? Maybe 
because your RAID group will be used more effectively.
Regarding DS8k - this disk array use 1113 cyl (equivalent of 3390-1) as 
the smallest chunk. As far as I know you can define volume with let's 
say 300 cylinders but whole 1113 chunk will be used for that. And the 
rest of the chunk will be unusable. What a waste...
So, it is good idea to use whole chunk multiplication whenever possible. 
And usually you don't care whether your volume is 32760 or just 32277 cyl.


Oh, I focuse on mod-27 and we also have mod-54 ...and EAV. In EAV world 
there are maximum values (actually three of them), but IMHO no one care 
about it.


HTH

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[R.S.]

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 07:34, Brian Westerman pisze:

How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or some of the 
other expensive hobbies.  People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.  I 
did get a discount on that, but I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify 
the cost, then it might seem too much.  Although, the alternative of doing it 
illegally is not even what I would consider to be an option at all.


The problem is not in the money, not only here.
It is matter of human mentality. Many aspects of that.

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful. So, "illegal" 
Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.


2. Free is much better even  than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is 
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some 
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it. Free without any 
obligations is much more attractive. That would induce many young people 
to just "play and try" this platform. Just for fun. Or just because it 
may help with some university duties. This is the method to make 
mainframe more popular or at least known to young people.


3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However 
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The 
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.) 
on such system. Or some company deliver some software products with no 
other "legal mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes, 
illegal.


4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in 
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences, 
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS 
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost 
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and 
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in 
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes 
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the 
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but 
not TSO account.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

[R.S.]

And what?
Did IBM build such versions? NO!
Is it possible to do it? Well IBM dislike Hercules a lot. However they 
didn't try to do it. Last, but not least: Hercules is hardware emulator. 
Such problem would mean issue with the emulation (found and used by 
IBM), which is probably feasible to be fixed.


Last, but not least: I replied to your words. But you misunderstood my 
previous words. My "and what" was related to the risk of investigation 
who was asking. Wasn't it obvious?


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 01.07.2020 o 17:11, Joe Monk pisze:

"And what?"

How about ... and IBM builds in things to the next release of z/os that
make it completely impossible for it to run on Hercules? Or z/VM? or z/VSE?

Joe

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:33 AM R.S.  wrote:


And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?

IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.


No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just
an observation.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:

Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...

Joe

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:


Hi,

I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems

that

there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.

I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
Mainframe to Hercules.
I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
correct process.
Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules?

That

would be appreciated.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,

Jasi Grewal.

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Re: When did .net become obsolete? was Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

[R.S.]

W dniu 02.07.2020 o 16:39, Clark Morris pisze:

[Default] On 2 Jul 2020 02:13:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.) wrote:


snip

BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old
things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as
z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear
answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea,
but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or
the the wheels are enhanced - square...
Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by
changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be
rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern
just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming
effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic)
changes.

When did dot net become obsolete?  Versions earlier than 3 are no
longer supported but when I did a search for dot net both the
Microsoft pointers and the wiki article seemed to show it is very much
alive and is now open source.  The original implantation was well
before 2010 and was starting to be open sourced before then.


I am not .NET specialist, but I work with them and they are working on 
migration from .NET to dot-net-core.
According to en.wiki: It is a cross-platformsuccessor to.NET Framework 
.

As far as I know English "successor" is the key.

Note: the above does not mean any .NET application will stop working 
suddenly withing few weeks. It even doesn't mean that no compilation of 
.NET will be possible.


--
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Lodz, Poland





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