Re: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times
On 9/07/2022 1:10 am, Colin Paice wrote: I was told If it executes 1. a million times a second - write in assembler 2. a thousand times a second write it in cobol or C 3. once a second - write it in Java 4. Else /bash/rexx/ Probably not an accurate picture these days. It would have to be a very select piece of assembler to have any significant advantage over C / C++. C and C++ have the advantage that the compiler doesn't have to produce maintainable or comprehensible code, so it can do lots of optimizations, inlining, loop unrolling etc. - whatever the compiler writers found produces the fastest code. Of course you can do the same in assembler - it is just a question of whether it is practicable for larger pieces of code. Java: that is probably reasonable if you are talking about starting a JVM from scratch every time e.g. like a z/OS batch job. If you are talking about a routine executed by a running program, I would expect Java to be close to C. (Certainly not 3 orders of magnitude different.) -- Andrew Rowley Black Hill Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help
Hello, There is a vendor BP that does this sort of thing with an automated tool. Mitch -Original Message- From: W Mainframe <01304632a58d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2022 9:23 am Subject: Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help Hi,A suggestion... I did similar thing some years ago using z390 Macro Language. In summary you can create macros and replace used macros by Cobol statements.The macros just punch Cobol statements to an output.I converted about 250 critical Cobol code.Main question... Is it 100%, of course not... But I would say 75%. RegardsDan Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, July 8, 2022, 8:53 PM, Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 22:51:38 +, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote: > > ... The business logic was totally scrambled, sometimes by "old-timer" >tricks like non-reentrant branch gates and other such no-no's under current >maintainability and pipeline-flush avoidance rules, other times just by >flagrantly awful spaghetti code even a human would struggle to understand. > Was that merely faithfully replicating deficiencies in the input? What architecture level? What might it do with such as RISBG? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 11:51:29 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: >Hi Gil, >You said: "..as XEDIT and "sed" do ..." >IIRC, TSO Edit should be included in this list. > Not in my list. On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 16:06:18 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >A space in an operator command is the separator between operand and comment. >That means that space has to be treated differently from other characters. >What the RFE would ask for is to suspend that special treatment for spaces >within framiong characters. > Within an apostrophe-framed string the special treatment of numerous characters such as comma, parentheses, and the apostrophe itself is suspended, perhaps using TRT. It should be simple to add to the list. >I don't know how difficult it would be to change MGCR to allow, e.g., /text/, >as an alternative to 'text'. > I was focusing more on the SDSF API than on MGCR. But both may need changes, for similar reasons: SDSF to allow an arbitrary string as an operator command; MGCR tp allow an arbitrary string as a parameter value. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
A space in an operator command is the separator between operand and comment. That means that space has to be treated differently from other characters. What the RFE would ask for is to suspend that special treatment for spaces within framiong characters. I don't know how difficult it would be to change MGCR to allow, e.g., /text/, as an alternative to 'text'. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2022 11:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it? On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:11:17 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >... > if someone were able to do an RFE with a compelling business case to allow > embedded spaces within all quoted text. > Why should that be hard? It's simply a matter of *not* treating as an exception. >... It would also be nice if they could justify allowing quotes as an > alternative framing character to apostrophes. > Or, as XEDIT and "sed" do, allowing the command itself to imply the framing character from a very large set such as all special characters. >I like the suggestion of having SDSF support (name) in the REXX API. > The hard part would be selecting a lead-in that doesn't otherwise exist in SDSF commands. It restricts the choice of scripting language to one that supports IRXEXCOM. It may be reasonably easy. In CMS I once wrote glue code to interface SQL/DS to Mainsail's scriptable debugger. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
Hi Gil, You said: "..as XEDIT and "sed" do ..." IIRC, TSO Edit should be included in this list. Regards, David On 2022-07-10 11:31, Paul Gilmartin wrote: On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:11:17 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: ... if someone were able to do an RFE with a compelling business case to allow embedded spaces within all quoted text. Why should that be hard? It's simply a matter of *not* treating as an exception. ... It would also be nice if they could justify allowing quotes as an alternative framing character to apostrophes. Or, as XEDIT and "sed" do, allowing the command itself to imply the framing character from a very large set such as all special characters. I like the suggestion of having SDSF support (name) in the REXX API. The hard part would be selecting a lead-in that doesn't otherwise exist in SDSF commands. It restricts the choice of scripting language to one that supports IRXEXCOM. It may be reasonably easy. In CMS I once wrote glue code to interface SQL/DS to Mainsail's scriptable debugger. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:11:17 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >... > if someone were able to do an RFE with a compelling business case to allow > embedded spaces within all quoted text. > Why should that be hard? It's simply a matter of *not* treating as an exception. >... It would also be nice if they could justify allowing quotes as an > alternative framing character to apostrophes. > Or, as XEDIT and "sed" do, allowing the command itself to imply the framing character from a very large set such as all special characters. >I like the suggestion of having SDSF support (name) in the REXX API. > The hard part would be selecting a lead-in that doesn't otherwise exist in SDSF commands. It restricts the choice of scripting language to one that supports IRXEXCOM. It may be reasonably easy. In CMS I once wrote glue code to interface SQL/DS to Mainsail's scriptable debugger. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM product numbers - where to find?
Oh, it's even more complex. Sometimes the product is a product itself, but THIS SHOP has a bundle, which is another contract position. And the bundle may consist of products or ... bundled products. Yes - bundle within bundle. BTDT. In some cases software inventory can be really complex. SMP/E, contracts, Shopzseries - all of them provide *some* information. To be honest when I managed it I was really the best informed person, but even then I created my own inventory with bundles, status of installation (not every licensed product is installed), FMIDs, etc. Having that I was able to answer any question about version, option, FMID, bundle, etc. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 10.07.2022 o 17:03, Itschak Mugzach pisze: tx Radoslav, Actually we are only interested in what a specific smp/e has. `the answer is in the product record and it is sufficient for us. Best, ITschak *| **Itschak Mugzach | Director | SecuriTeam Software **|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for Z/OS, zLinux and IBM I **| * *|* *Email**: i_mugz...@securiteam.co.il **|* *Mob**: +972 522 986404 **|* *Skype**: ItschakMugzach **|* *Web**: www.Securiteam.co.il **|* On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 7:56 PM Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: W dniu 07.07.2022 o 11:02, ITschak Mugzach pisze: I am looking for a cross reference between fmid, product number and product name. I found partial data for z/os components, but looking for the entire list. Is there such a list? There is no such list available. Note, there is no 1:1 relationship. Sometimes same FMID can be part of several products. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] FedEx to move entirely to the cloud
How many years? Well, I know a banking company which moves off mainframe. 10 years. They even claimed success, but... But still all the processing is being done on mainframe. And the money is spent on Windows servers. Hundreds. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM product numbers - where to find?
tx Radoslav, Actually we are only interested in what a specific smp/e has. `the answer is in the product record and it is sufficient for us. Best, ITschak *| **Itschak Mugzach | Director | SecuriTeam Software **|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for Z/OS, zLinux and IBM I **| * *|* *Email**: i_mugz...@securiteam.co.il **|* *Mob**: +972 522 986404 **|* *Skype**: ItschakMugzach **|* *Web**: www.Securiteam.co.il **|* On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 7:56 PM Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: > W dniu 07.07.2022 o 11:02, ITschak Mugzach pisze: > > I am looking for a cross reference between fmid, product number and > product > > name. I found partial data for z/os components, but looking for the > entire > > list. Is there such a list? > > There is no such list available. Note, there is no 1:1 relationship. > Sometimes same FMID can be part of several products. > > -- > Radoslaw Skorupka > Lodz, Poland > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
Well, MODIFY is handled entirely by MGCR inside the Communication Task, while START is also processed by the Master Scheduler. I'm not sure at what point in the processing the fourth START parameter goes into the START CIB. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org] Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 1:45 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it? As does MODIFY, which I think of as very analogous to START, since the data ends up in more or less the same place. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 10:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it? I had assumed that START would accept spaces as long as they are framed in apostrophes, but the OS/360 documentation only mentions parentheses. I've submitted an RCF, citing REPLY and SEND as commands that definitely accept embedded spaces. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it?
My primary concern was to not leave newbies guessing, although I would certainly be pleased if someone were able to do an RFE with a compelling business case to allow embedded spaces within all quoted text. It would also be nice if they could justify allowing quotes as an alternative framing character to apostrophes. I like the suggestion of having SDSF support (name) in the REXX API. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 2:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: How do I issue a command with a blank in it? On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 17:23:53 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I had assumed that START would accept spaces as long as they are framed in >apostrophes, but the OS/360 documentation only mentions parentheses. I've >submitted an RCF, citing REPLY and SEND as commands that definitely accept >embedded spaces. > If RCF doesn't provide an effective resolution (i.e. *not* "You can't do that!"), the next step is an RFE on Operator Commands. No avail to the command line user, but the SDSF Rexx API should provide a scheme akin to SYSCALL's "(variable_name)" (you corrected me on that lately) to use IRXEXCOM to access an arbitrary string not subject to parsing by Rexx. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] FedEx to move entirely to the cloud
This is the same company that couldn't deliver a tape to the Goddard Modelling and Simulation Facility Because there was no street address. Maybe it's changed, but at the time the Goddard Space Flight Center had building numbers and didn't have street addresses. They were probably the only company in the DC metropolitan area that didn't know how to find Goddard. I found it odd under the circumstances that they had "federal" in the name. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Dave Barry [00a5644c6d08-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:53 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] FedEx to move entirely to the cloud No surprise. FedEx announce years ago that they were getting off the mainframe "next year." Sincerely, Winston Smith -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 3:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] FedEx to move entirely to the cloud CAUTION! This email originated outside of the organization. Please do not open attachments or click links from an unknown or suspicious origin. == Bit of a shock this one. FedEx are closing all of their data centers and moving to Microsofts Azure Cloud. They are a massive mainframe customer and close friends of ours for a long time. We had one of their guys on the floor in our office working with us on solutions. Times are changing... https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F05%2Ffedex_to_close_all_datacenters%2F__%3B!!AQegZw!bk8TvW4s1b3By0vWxFwMp8n5yzIFnjuky7eEnnGMr4mQj0jjkE1rGuBNmvZjHEg_7cAhiCCEtwBU5w%24&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C29643144eaf74f714efd08da612c6d53%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637929140683304191%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0g4kcvCiJlwFY17cKailGRANSM15IBJ50sgbC0dh1Bc%3D&reserved=0 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help
Run some hairy test cases and evaluate the outputs for, e.g., completeness, effort for manual recodeing of anything not automatically converted, efficiency, readability, maintainability. It's a lot harder to do it well than to just do it. Using a program that only translates 75% of a module might require more manpower than translating the whole thing manually. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Ross [tmr...@stlvm20.vnet.ibm.com] Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 6:31 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Converting assembler to COBOL help Greetings mainframers! This has porobbaly been asked and answered, but are there tools or companies that can convert or help to rewrite assembler applications or just programs into COBOL? Any suggestions? Cheers, TomR >> COBOL is the Language of the Future! << AKA: Captain COBOL, Tom Ross -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help
Automatic conversion of assembler code has been around for decades. And, yes, it is a bear for complicated architectures and a lot of work even for simple machines. BTDT,GTA. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 2:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help That's a reasonable suggestion. Many pitfalls to watch out for (like the branch gates example I gave earlier), but like you said, possibly 75% coverage for the code portion. System macro conversion could be a big headache too, but at least feasible to try. Trickier could be conversion of the DSECT and non-reentrant variable storage area definitions. I would expect much of that to need careful human review and manual adjustment. Unlike HLL's, assembler allows many hardware-specific "tricks" that make automated analysis, like classical compiler construction to generate "parse trees" and "directed graphs" and such, much more difficult. It may be possible to do, but the work involved to create and validate such a beast would be massive. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of W Mainframe Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 10:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Converting assembler to COBOL help Hi,A suggestion... I did similar thing some years ago using z390 Macro Language. In summary you can create macros and replace used macros by Cobol statements.The macros just punch Cobol statements to an output.I converted about 250 critical Cobol code.Main question... Is it 100%, of course not... But I would say 75%. RegardsDan Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, July 8, 2022, 8:53 PM, Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 22:51:38 +, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote: > > ... The business logic was totally scrambled, sometimes by "old-timer" >tricks like non-reentrant branch gates and other such no-no's under current >maintainability and pipeline-flush avoidance rules, other times just by >flagrantly awful spaghetti code even a human would struggle to understand. > Was that merely faithfully replicating deficiencies in the input? What architecture level? What might it do with such as RISBG? -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AW: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times
The selection of "best language" is subjective and IMHO it makes more sense to talk about the best language s for specific problem domains. I'd rank PL/I above HLASM, but must admit to supplementing my PL/I programming with utility subroutines written in assembler. For processing large arrays, APL might actually be reasonable. I'd love to see some performance numbers. Which Perl and which Rexx? For Rexx, performance depends on what version of what interpreter you use. Has anyone done an oorexx 5 versus regina shootoff? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Leonard D Woren [ibm-main...@ldworen.net] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2022 3:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: AW: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times Mike Beer wrote on 7/7/2022 10:55 PM: > Other candidates could include PL/I - which is/was very common in Europe - Even though I haven't written a PL/I program since college, I still think it's the second-best language and I'm disappointed that it's rarely used in the USA. (Best language? HLA with structured programming macros!) > REXX Good, but slow. I converted a CPU pig PC program from REXX to Perl and it took 1/3 of the CPU time. > and maybe APL. Ya gotta be kidding. First of all, everyone knows that APL is a write-only language. Second, what fraction of programmers these days know APL? Maybe 0.1%? And my recollection is that APL is a CPU pig. > Applications that were created many years ago work with virtually no > modifications. In the early days of MVS/XA, i.e., 31 bit addressing, I had a very old TSO command load module but I didn't have easy access to the source. It abended S0C4 when run on MVS/XA. So I marked it AMODE31 and it ran fine. Cleanly written in Assembler, in the early days of MVS/370. /Leonard > > Best regards > Mike > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List Im Auftrag von > Timothy Sipples > Gesendet: Friday, July 08, 2022 7:37 > An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Betreff: Re: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York > Times > > It's *so* weird! Imagine writing this: > > "Sarah, age 23, rejected her college advisor's career advice and started > work at Boeing in Seattle last year. Her friends who mainly pursued careers > in banking and law outright laugh at her for designing airplanes, the > antiquated vehicles invented well over a century ago. But Sarah takes their > ribbing in stride even as she works on designs that past generations of > engineers could mostly comprehend." > > Or this: > > "Last night Olivia Rodrigo won the 2022 GRAMMY for Best New Artist. It's > ironic that the Recording Academy uses the word 'new' to describe any award > they hand out. Audio recording was invented all the way back in the 1800s > with only modest incremental improvements since. And it's particularly > galling that Rodrigo has never publicly thanked Thomas Edison and other > music recording pioneers for contributing to her success in the ancient > industry she chose. Of course everyone knows music is dying. One analyst in > Ecuador predicts that within 10 years the number of people who listen to > music at least once per day will fall by 92.4%." > > Here's how I think of programming languages. There's a very short list of > programming languages that are both so common, so useful, and (relatedly) so > adaptable (incrementally improved, integrated, extended, etc.) that they > have (for all intents and purposes) achieved "immortality." COBOL is > definitely on this distinguished short list. Other things being equal it's a > great characteristic when you're making investment choices including career > choices. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Java (Re: Some questions on SYSCALL
> > Am 09.07.2022 um 06:31 schrieb David Crayford : > > On 8/07/2022 7:43 pm, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: >>> On 08.07.2022 03:38, David Crayford wrote: >>> On 7/07/2022 7:53 pm, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: > When I select a language for a job, one of the things that I look at is > the ecosystem. I prefer ooRexx to Perl, but I find myself using > Perl for some tasks because CPAN is an awesome resource. Python may not > be the best language for the task at hand, but it pays to check what > packages are available. Indeed Perl and Python have a great wealth of libraries available to them. There is one ecosystem that beats Perl, Python and practically any others: Java >>> >>> According to http://www.modulecounts.com/ which shows the number of unique >>> packages >> >> Methodology: "... Data is collected /by scraping the relevant websites /once >> a day via a cron job and then stored in a Postgresql database for later >> retrieval. Growth rates are calculated by averaging data over the last week. >> I'm gathering counts of separate modules, so multiple versions of the same >> module/package/gem only count once (foo-1.2, foo-1.3 and bar-1.0 would count >> as 2 total). ..." >> >> Questioning the methodology, completeness, correctness and as a result the >> relevance. Did not find any checkbox for Java there hence wondering where >> your Java figures come from. > > It gets the Java figures from Maven Central https://search.maven.org/stats. > There is no denying that Java has an gigantic eco-system. And a hell of a lot > of it is top notch. The product I'm currently working on wouldn't exist > without Java open source. > > >> >>> Node.js 2019534 >>> Java 483102 >>> Python 386118 >>> Perl 18354 >>> >>> So the undisputed winner as far as ecosystem is JavaScript. >> >> This may be more an indication that there are many shortcomings and many >> packages by different authors that try to make the same needed >> functionalities available. >> >> ... cut ... >> >> Ad Java: JRE comes already with a wealth of packages on board that are >> add-ons in other languages. > > The gripe I have is that what comes with the JRE is typically not as good as > open source. For example, JDK 11 finally included a half decent HttpClient > but it doesn't support anyway near the feature set of open source clients > such as OkHttp or Jetty > https://www.mocklab.io/blog/which-java-http-client-should-i-use-in-2020/. To > my knowledge there is still no support for JSON or Yaml even in JDK 18. There are Java libraries for it. Ad Java evolution, maintenance, here a nice overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history, covering Java 1 through 19 and giving a brief outlook (there would be more on the openjdk.org homepage, look for the JEP - Java enhancement proposals - projects for Java). >> >> In addition, almost all important business applications have Java APIs such >> that one can regard such applications as additional Java packages (e.g. >> OpenOffice/LibreOffice mainly implemented in C++ gained Java APIs and the >> ability to implement modules in Java; one result is the creation of a Java >> scripting framework for OpenOffice/LibreOffice which allows any language for >> which a javax.script implementation exists to be used as a scripting and >> macro language; one example for this comes with BSF4ooRexx). >> >> Or think of the JDBC packages of the different database vendors, or ... >> >>> I just downloaded vsam.js to process a VSAM data set in Node on z/OS and it >>> works well. IBM are certainly giving >>> Node more love then REXX which will never officially support VSAM. >> >> Indeed this is strange that IBM does not support REXX the same as other >> technologies. > > IBM also provide a VSAM I/O module for Go > https://github.com/ibmruntimes/go-recordio. > > >> >> Has that possibly to do (wild guess) that the developers do not know how to >> create REXX APIs on the mainframe? As probably C++ has a role here, then >> probably CMake based ooRexx 5 with its C++ APIs would make the creation of >> external ooRexx function libraries quite simple on the mainframe as well >> (judging from the existence of "z/OS XL C/C++ Library Reference SA22-7821" >> and "z/OS XL C/C++ Programming Guide SC09-4765"). > > The REXX programming services on z/OS are built for assembler. Bridging to > C/C++ can be done. I have code to do that but it's tricky. Porting ooRexx to > z/OS is very difficult. I actually managed to build it around 2008. If you > look in the oorexx-devel archives you will se conversations between myself > and Rick McGuire. There is a lot of weird pthread stuff intertwined with > message passing that made it unsuitable for running in an ISPF environment. I > put it in the too-hard basket and a a couple of years later discovered Lua > which was simple to port and unbelievably effecient. Severa
Re: Java (Re: Some questions on SYSCALL
Am 09.07.2022 um 03:15 schrieb David Crayford : > > On 8/07/2022 7:17 pm, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: >>> On 07.07.2022 17:45, David Crayford wrote: >>> On 7/07/2022 7:53 pm, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: On 06.07.2022 11:03, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> ... cut ... There is one ecosystem that beats Perl, Python and practically any others: Java. For every problem domain, for new emerging technologies there are Java class libraries which one can take advantage of. As Java classes get compiled to intermediate byte code, these Java class libraries can be deployed and used immediately on any hardware and any operating system for which a Java virtual machine exists. >>> >>> That's debatable! I'm a full time Java programmer in the last few years and >>> I like. We use Spring Boot which is a high quality framework that makes it >>> pleasant to use. I would use SB even for a slightly complex command line >>> interface. However, the build systems are a bit spotty compared to Node.js, >>> Python etc. >> Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, ... > > I build Java in IntelliJ using Maven. Also, we use a DevOps pipeline driven > by Jenkins so using an IDE is out of the question. > > >>> Maven is creaking with it's ugly XML pom.xml and >> >> Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder ... >> >> Maven is not Java and still an incredible boon! > > I agree. I just don't like XML. I would rather use Gradle with it's nice > Groovy DSL where I can drop down and write code for tricky configurations. > > >> >>> Gradle doesn't work very well on some systems. >> >> What does not work for you? >> >> Would you think that the Java multiplatform build system which is done with >> Gradle would be possible, if that were true what you say? > > Gradle doesn't work properly on z/OS. First thing I tried was to nobble > spawning the daemon. I used AOT -Xshareclasses so start up times were not a > problem. However, Gradle was downloading lots of unwanted dependencies and > filled up the file system cache. I abandoned it and stuck to Maven. > > >> >>> C# is a far better language then Java. >> >> Excuse me? 😂 > > Off the top of my header. > > 1. Generics done properly with reflection support, not puny type erasure. Java retains generics information in byte code (for the compiler) after type erasure (such that the runtime does not have to recheck after compilation, after all the compiler checked already). > 2. No checked exceptions One can use no checked exceptions in Java if one wished. OTOH checked exceptions are there and one can take advantage of them. > 3. Unsigned integer types Not really a problem. > 4. Value types Not really a problem. > 5. Better support for functional program, LINQ How so, which bytecodes do you think of? > 6. Better enumeration support, with the yield|| statement Hmm? Actually I would be interested about what you are missing in Java‘s enum support. > I could go on. I don't use C# but I spent a weekend learning it and it's a > great language. Kotlin has similar features but is crippled by the JVM. For > example, there is no byte code support for unsigned integers. There is also no real need for it (and if really needed for conversions there are the appropriate methods defined in the wrapper classes). > >> Kotlin meets 95% of the requirements but we dismissed it because it's not >> mainstream so we're stuck with Java. Kotlin is by JetBrains (makers of IntelliJ), Google endorsing it for having a Java alternative for creating Android applications. „Stuck“ is not really true: Kotlin compiles to Java bytecode which you can use as if that bytecode was created by a Java compiler. The same holds for NetRexx programs: they get transpiled to Java source code (you can save that code and inspect it vis-a-vis your NetRexx source code) which then gets compiled to Java byte code. The resulting compiled NetRexx program in form of the Java bytecode can be used as if it was created by the Java compiler (which it did :) ). >> >> Poor you! ;) >> (You got stuck in one of the most up-to-date and maintained languages and >> environments that sets you free from being locked-in in a specific platform.) >> > I use Java every day. I'm happy to use it. But I disagree that it's on of the > most up-to-date languages. There differences between Java 8 and Java 16 are > so insignificant it's worth upgrading. > > >> >>> Yes. But you need to use Open Source libraries for it to be easy to use. >>> The JRE doesn't cut it. >> >> Hmm? >> >> The JRE includes a wealth of functionality, a wealth of packages that in >> other languages are only available as add-ons. >> > However, we still need libraries such as Google Guava, Apache Commons, Lombok > to plug the gaps. > > >>> Seeing the OpenJDK (open-source Java) community and how vigorously Java gets developed further, continually updated in critical areas like security, there is no end in s
Re: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times
> Am 08.07.2022 um 17:10 schrieb Colin Paice : > > I was told > If it executes > > 1. a million times a second - write in assembler > 2. a thousand times a second write it in cobol or C > 3. once a second - write it in Java > 4. Else /bash/rexx/ > > Though if it executes once a year and runs for a week- I might look at C As intriguing - and easy to memorize! - such listings are, they may quickly become totally misleading. E.g. Java has become able to run as quick as C/C++ and sometimes even faster than C/C++! One aspect that should be stressed in this context: given the ever ongoing improvements in hardware and software infrastructures benchmarks - if deemed important nowadays :) - need to be redone on a regular (yearly) basis. One interesting - REXX-related - table about speed improvements of different REXX/Rexx implementations over the decades can be found at the website of the father of REXX - Mike F. Cowlishaw - at: http://speleotrove.com/misc/rexxcpslist.html Looking at these numbers (I do not know of any comparable historical table for other programming languages using the same benchmark program throughout the decades on different implementations of a language) one can see how breathtaking the technical improvements have been over the decades: going from 114 RexxCPS in 1994 to 23,774,392 (!) RexxCPS in 2021. So in 2021 Rexx programs would execute roughly 220,000 times (!) faster than in 1994! —-rony >> On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 15:52, Dave Jones wrote: >> >> Timothy Sipples said: >> >> "Which leads to an interesting thought exercise. In 2022 if you're trying >> to choose a programming language for business application programming that >> stands the best chance of being durable (being realistically maintainable, >> extendable, enhance-able) for the next 40+ years — a common requirement for >> many high value, nontrivial business applications — what programming >> language would you choose? I suggest Enterprise COBOL ought to be a >> candidate. (Any other nominations?)" >> >> Enterprise PL/I, of course. :-) >> DJ >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AW: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times
Mike Beer wrote on 7/7/2022 10:55 PM: Other candidates could include PL/I - which is/was very common in Europe - Even though I haven't written a PL/I program since college, I still think it's the second-best language and I'm disappointed that it's rarely used in the USA. (Best language? HLA with structured programming macros!) REXX Good, but slow. I converted a CPU pig PC program from REXX to Perl and it took 1/3 of the CPU time. and maybe APL. Ya gotta be kidding. First of all, everyone knows that APL is a write-only language. Second, what fraction of programmers these days know APL? Maybe 0.1%? And my recollection is that APL is a CPU pig. Applications that were created many years ago work with virtually no modifications. In the early days of MVS/XA, i.e., 31 bit addressing, I had a very old TSO command load module but I didn't have easy access to the source. It abended S0C4 when run on MVS/XA. So I marked it AMODE31 and it ran fine. Cleanly written in Assembler, in the early days of MVS/370. /Leonard Best regards Mike -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: IBM Mainframe Discussion List Im Auftrag von Timothy Sipples Gesendet: Friday, July 08, 2022 7:37 An: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Betreff: Re: NOTSP The Latin of Software Code Is Thriving - The New York Times It's *so* weird! Imagine writing this: "Sarah, age 23, rejected her college advisor's career advice and started work at Boeing in Seattle last year. Her friends who mainly pursued careers in banking and law outright laugh at her for designing airplanes, the antiquated vehicles invented well over a century ago. But Sarah takes their ribbing in stride even as she works on designs that past generations of engineers could mostly comprehend." Or this: "Last night Olivia Rodrigo won the 2022 GRAMMY for Best New Artist. It's ironic that the Recording Academy uses the word 'new' to describe any award they hand out. Audio recording was invented all the way back in the 1800s with only modest incremental improvements since. And it's particularly galling that Rodrigo has never publicly thanked Thomas Edison and other music recording pioneers for contributing to her success in the ancient industry she chose. Of course everyone knows music is dying. One analyst in Ecuador predicts that within 10 years the number of people who listen to music at least once per day will fall by 92.4%." Here's how I think of programming languages. There's a very short list of programming languages that are both so common, so useful, and (relatedly) so adaptable (incrementally improved, integrated, extended, etc.) that they have (for all intents and purposes) achieved "immortality." COBOL is definitely on this distinguished short list. Other things being equal it's a great characteristic when you're making investment choices including career choices. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
