Re: Assembler courses

[Ed Jaffe]

On 9/18/2022 4:15 PM, Tom Harper wrote:

Sometimes R15 contains the entry point.

If the routine receives control from ATTACHX or LINKX, for instance, and if it 
is to run in AMODE(64), then it does not.

A better solution is to use

LARL R12,PROGNAME
USING PROGNAME, R12

which has no dependency on R15.


I prefer to use:

LARL  R12,Constants
USING (Constants,Constants_End),R12

thereby dispensing with permanent base register coverage for program 
executable code.


The address range between Constants and Constants_End contains the 
literal pool and any other read-only constants the program might need. 
This area is virtually always less than 4K in size, even for very large 
programs.



--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
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https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: How to use LISTDSI from Rexx under Unix shell?

[Seymour J Metz]

WTF? TSO has supported LRECL=255 for over half a century. Don't be confused by 
IBM shipping code in an archaic form factor.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 11:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How to use LISTDSI from Rexx under Unix shell?

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:04:06 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:

>More appropriately, since my ALLOC of SYSEXEC to a PATH specified 
>FILETYPE(TEXT), it seems to me that should signal to the system (whoever 
>creates and opens the SYSEXEC DCB) that the data in that file are 
>presumptively RECFM=V,LRECL=(some reasonable maximum like 4096).
>
When have you ever seen a 4096-column keypunch?  80 is the only
reasonable value compatible with antiquated art, HLASM SYSIN, etc.

>I will try out both LRECL on the existing ALLOC and the BPXWDYN method and see 
>which works.
>
I wrote nastily, from memory, in my BPXWDYN suggestion.  Closer,
but still from memory:
ADDRESS TSO "call *(bpxwdyn) 'concat DDLIST(SYSEXEC,DDname2[,DDnamex...])'"

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gil

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Re: Latin

[Jay Maynard]

Romanes eunt domus!

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 7:59 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Vade vilis.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, September 18, 2022, 8:43 PM, Tony Harminc 
> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Sept 2022 at 19:00, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > I had a class on medical terminology when I worked at a hospital. No need
> > to learn Latin. While Latin might make some feel superior, learning
> Spanish
> > or Chinese would probably be far more useful. Most Americans are
> pathetic,
> > unilingual speakers, while most of the world is multilingual. Having
> > travelled throughout the world, I’m happy most speak English, or I can
> > speak English & German. (3 years worth) Also got exposed to some Latin
> via
> > my foray into the legal profession, albeit a short one.
> >
>
> De minimis non curat lex.
>
> Tony H.
>
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Jay Maynard

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Re: Assembler courses

[Bob Bridges]

Yes, I didn't think to put it that way at first but it's a good way of phrasing 
it:  In OO coding I'm creating a number of packages, and I find its easier to 
organize their interactions (and to remember how they must interact) when I do 
it that way.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Well-timed silence is the most commanding expression.  -Mark Helprin in The 
Wall Street Journal */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 19:59

Let me jump in here with a very personal note and say I *have* written a very 
successful* mainframe program in a totally OO paradigm. So yes, OO is totally 
relevant to mainframe software.

To me, yes, it is a method of organization of data and subroutines. It is a 
totally different way of thinking about things. Let me see if I can express 
this. You have a program. You want to add some functionality to it. Rather than 
thinking separately "I will need some new data fields" and "I will need some 
new subroutines" instead you think "I will need a 'package' of new data fields 
and subroutines that operate on those fields." It is a way of organizing the 
effort that I found to work extremely well for me. I cannot picture writing a 
large program any other way: not as a hodgepodge of fields and subroutines, but 
rather as a collection of smallish 'packages' of data and their attendant 
subroutines.

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Re: Latin

[Bill Johnson]

Vade vilis.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 18, 2022, 8:43 PM, Tony Harminc  wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sept 2022 at 19:00, Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I had a class on medical terminology when I worked at a hospital. No need
> to learn Latin. While Latin might make some feel superior, learning Spanish
> or Chinese would probably be far more useful. Most Americans are pathetic,
> unilingual speakers, while most of the world is multilingual. Having
> travelled throughout the world, I’m happy most speak English, or I can
> speak English & German. (3 years worth) Also got exposed to some Latin via
> my foray into the legal profession, albeit a short one.
>

De minimis non curat lex.

Tony H.

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Re: Latin

[Tony Harminc]

On Sun, 18 Sept 2022 at 19:00, Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I had a class on medical terminology when I worked at a hospital. No need
> to learn Latin. While Latin might make some feel superior, learning Spanish
> or Chinese would probably be far more useful. Most Americans are pathetic,
> unilingual speakers, while most of the world is multilingual. Having
> travelled throughout the world, I’m happy most speak English, or I can
> speak English & German. (3 years worth) Also got exposed to some Latin via
> my foray into the legal profession, albeit a short one.
>

De minimis non curat lex.

Tony H.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Charles Mills]

> I've never had occasion to try write OO programs on the mainframe.  

> to me it seems that the chief value of classes and class methods is a 
> way of organizing my subroutines and functions and limiting their 
> scope to particular uses which seems to me would be useful in some 
> mainframe programs

> I gather some OO languages are available to OMVS users here

Let me jump in here with a very personal note and say I *have* written a very 
successful* mainframe program in a totally OO paradigm. So yes, OO is totally 
relevant to mainframe software.

To me, yes, it is a method of organization of data and subroutines. It is a 
totally different way of thinking about things. Let me see if I can express 
this. You have a program. You want to add some functionality to it. Rather than 
thinking separately "I will need some new data fields" and "I will need some 
new subroutines" instead you think "I will need a 'package' of new data fields 
and subroutines that operate on those fields." It is a way of organizing the 
effort that I found to work extremely well for me. I cannot picture writing a 
large program any other way: not as a hodgepodge of fields and subroutines, but 
rather as a collection of smallish 'packages' of data and their attendant 
subroutines.

Utterly industry-standard C++ is available for developing both "legacy" and 
UNIX programs on z/OS. The program I refer to above is run with JCL as an STC; 
nothing external about it screams "C" or "OO" or "OMVS."

*Licensed by quite a few "name" companies and then acquired by a big-name 
software company for fairly big bucks.

Charles

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Re: Assembler courses

[John McKown]

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022, 18:16 Tom Harper 
wrote:

> Sometimes R15 contains the entry point.
>
> If the routine receives control from ATTACHX or LINKX, for instance, and
> if it is to run in AMODE(64), then it does not.
>
> A better solution is to use
>
> LARL R12,PROGNAME
> USING PROGNAME, R12
>
> which has no dependency on R15.
>

I have used that. In the past, I also used

BALR R12,0
USING *,R12


> Tom Harper
> Phoenix Software International
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 18, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Mike Schwab 
> wrote:
> >
> > When you enter a program, R15 points to the first byte of PROGNAME.
> > You usually have a USING R15,PROGNAME.
> > If you are going to be calling OS functions or programs, you will copy
> > R15 to another register (often R12), issue a USING R12,PROGNAME and
> > DROP R15,PROGNAME.  So when using a label within 4K of PROGNAME, the
> > assembler will use the USING register, and compute the offset from
> > PROGNAME.
> >
> >> On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 8:12 AM Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what
> all the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from
> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same
> time I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this
> property or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was
> different about OO coding.)
> >>
> >> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an
> enthusiast, about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of
> Basic itself, but it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available
> on all Windows machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
> >>
> >> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.
> Every time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a
> little closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got
> quite familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but
> what exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >>
> >> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma
> can be pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
> >>
> >> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with
> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there.
> Higher level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse
> me.
> >>
> >> --
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> > Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
> >
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>
>
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Re: Assembler courses

[Tom Harper]

Sometimes R15 contains the entry point. 

If the routine receives control from ATTACHX or LINKX, for instance, and if it 
is to run in AMODE(64), then it does not. 

A better solution is to use 

LARL R12,PROGNAME
USING PROGNAME, R12

which has no dependency on R15.

Tom Harper
Phoenix Software International 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
> 
> When you enter a program, R15 points to the first byte of PROGNAME.
> You usually have a USING R15,PROGNAME.
> If you are going to be calling OS functions or programs, you will copy
> R15 to another register (often R12), issue a USING R12,PROGNAME and
> DROP R15,PROGNAME.  So when using a label within 4K of PROGNAME, the
> assembler will use the USING register, and compute the offset from
> PROGNAME.
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 8:12 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>> 
>> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all 
>> the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from 
>> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time 
>> I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this 
>> property or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was 
>> different about OO coding.)
>> 
>> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an 
>> enthusiast, about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of 
>> Basic itself, but it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available 
>> on all Windows machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
>> 
>> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
>> time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little 
>> closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite 
>> familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what 
>> exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
>> 
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>> 
>> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
>> pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Tom Brennan
>> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
>> 
>> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
>> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
>> level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
> 
> --
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Re: Latin

[Bill Johnson]

I had a class on medical terminology when I worked at a hospital. No need to 
learn Latin. While Latin might make some feel superior, learning Spanish or 
Chinese would probably be far more useful. Most Americans are pathetic, 
unilingual speakers, while most of the world is multilingual. Having travelled 
throughout the world, I’m happy most speak English, or I can speak English & 
German. (3 years worth) Also got exposed to some Latin via my foray into the 
legal profession, albeit a short one.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, September 18, 2022, 5:54 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:

Yes!  I took two years of classical Greek (I was going to be a religion major, 
at the time), which was my first introduction to heavily inflected languages.  
When I went back to take some more French, I discovered that everything I had 
not understood about the subjunctive mood in French back in high school now 
made perfect sense to me.

A prof at a medical college is supposed to have remarked that he can always 
tell the students who've taken Latin or Greek; when he names a bone or organ, 
often their eyes light up with comprehension.  I'm not a medical student, but 
with a very little classical background words such as "pericardium" and 
"hemolytic" make sense even before the definition follows.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and 
Progressives.  The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.  The 
business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.  
-G K Chesterton */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 10:31

So many words in English and in many European languages have their roots in 
Latin that a knowledge of Latin gave you an edge in building vocabulary in 
multiple languages.  For English-only speakers, it served as an introduction to 
language concepts that barely exist in English: of noun gender and declension 
causing the base forms of written and spoken words to change based on context.  
About the only examples of this in English are the subjective and objective 
forms of personal pronouns (I/me, he/him, she/her. they/them); and the flagrant 
misuse and abuse of these forms by public & TV speakers, who ought to know 
better, shows even this limited use of declension in English is obviously not 
understood by many.

One could argue that a knowledge of the basics of Latin could serve as a bridge 
to understanding other languages (including English) in the same way that 
knowing the basics of one procedural programming language serves as a bridge to 
understanding other programming languages.

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Re: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Tony Harminc]

On Sun, 18 Sept 2022 at 12:16, Farley, Peter x23353 <
031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Wow, talk about "nanny state" link protection - have a gander at the
> hugely complex mess that René's perfectly reasonable links to the IDCP and
> Marist copies of Mr. Ehrman's opus turned into below.  Someone else's web
> link safety filter added "https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com;
> around René's link and then my employer's filter added "
> https://urldefense.com/v3; around that filter.
>
> I know it is important to keep the untrained masses from clicking on
> dangerous links, but this is getting really ridiculous.
>

As I've suggested here before, I think LSOFT could provide some good added
value by removing as many layers of this crud as possible - certainly for
anything that goes in the archives. The safelinks and urldefense ones
contain the original URL only lighly obfuscated, and so could be easily
dealt with. (In fact there is a site https://www.o365atp.com that
deobfuscates the Microsoft ones, and I think I've seen one also for
urldefense.com .)

I suppose they have to worry that someone will sue them if a "bad" URL
creeps through. The main thing that would suffer from inaccuracy is
discussions like this of these very problems!

Tony H.

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Re: Latin

[Bob Bridges]

Yes!  I took two years of classical Greek (I was going to be a religion major, 
at the time), which was my first introduction to heavily inflected languages.  
When I went back to take some more French, I discovered that everything I had 
not understood about the subjunctive mood in French back in high school now 
made perfect sense to me.

A prof at a medical college is supposed to have remarked that he can always 
tell the students who've taken Latin or Greek; when he names a bone or organ, 
often their eyes light up with comprehension.  I'm not a medical student, but 
with a very little classical background words such as "pericardium" and 
"hemolytic" make sense even before the definition follows.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and 
Progressives.  The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.  The 
business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.  
-G K Chesterton */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 10:31

So many words in English and in many European languages have their roots in 
Latin that a knowledge of Latin gave you an edge in building vocabulary in 
multiple languages.  For English-only speakers, it served as an introduction to 
language concepts that barely exist in English: of noun gender and declension 
causing the base forms of written and spoken words to change based on context.  
About the only examples of this in English are the subjective and objective 
forms of personal pronouns (I/me, he/him, she/her. they/them); and the flagrant 
misuse and abuse of these forms by public & TV speakers, who ought to know 
better, shows even this limited use of declension in English is obviously not 
understood by many.

One could argue that a knowledge of the basics of Latin could serve as a bridge 
to understanding other languages (including English) in the same way that 
knowing the basics of one procedural programming language serves as a bridge to 
understanding other programming languages.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Bob Bridges]

You may be right; I've never had occasion to try write OO programs on the 
mainframe.  But when I write classes in VBA, I'm not thinking primarily of 
sending messages between GUI objects (though you may argue that's exactly what 
I'm doing whether I think of it that way or not); to me it seems that the chief 
value of classes and class methods is a way of organizing my subroutines and 
functions and limiting their scope to particular uses - which seems to me would 
be useful in some mainframe programs I write just as well as in Excel.

I gather some OO languages are available to OMVS users here; what do the rest 
of you say?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* From four miles away, the scene was mystifying, surreal. The rocket moved -- 
it seemed to levitate, inching upward on a tower of incandescent fire -- but 
there was no sound, only the unsuspecting gulls wheeling in the silent sky. And 
then the surface of the lagoon in front of the press grandstand suddenly 
rippled as the shock wave flashed across, thudded into the chests of the 
spectators, shook the ground beneath their feet and filled their skulls with a 
crackling thunder that overwhelmed the atmosphere itself. To the million souls 
who watched dumbstruck as the great machine ascended, there could not have been 
the slightless doubt that this thing was leaving the planet.  -from "Angle of 
Attack", a description by Mike Gray of the launch of Apollo 11 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 12:53

Ah... Visual Basic.  OO certainly does make sense with Windows programming (and 
I assume other GUI's).  The idea of the GUI writers to send messages back and 
forth between "objects" is genius.  So each bit of code (say for a button or a 
text box object) just sits there doing nothing until a message is sent to it.  
But on other platforms, forcing me to turn something into a "class" that is 
just a bunch of subroutines and control blocks seems like more work than it's 
worth.

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Re: Latin

[Bob Bridges]

There's an English version ("Oh come, all ye faithful").  But of course it 
isn't an exact translation, and anyway sometimes I just ~like~ the Latin words. 
 "Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, deum verum, genitum non factum; venite 
adoremus...".

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Never fly lower then the radius of your propeller.  -Erv Culver's first rule 
of aerodynamics */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bernd Oppolzer
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 16:20

No english verson of "Adeste fideles"?

--- Am 18.09.2022 um 15:17 schrieb Bob Bridges:
> I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest 
> daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared 
> entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was 
> Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm 
> not sorry that so many old Christmas carols have been translated to English.  
> But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  I do miss that.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Mike Schwab]

When you enter a program, R15 points to the first byte of PROGNAME.
You usually have a USING R15,PROGNAME.
If you are going to be calling OS functions or programs, you will copy
R15 to another register (often R12), issue a USING R12,PROGNAME and
DROP R15,PROGNAME.  So when using a label within 4K of PROGNAME, the
assembler will use the USING register, and compute the offset from
PROGNAME.

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 8:12 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all 
> the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from 
> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time 
> I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this property 
> or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different about OO 
> coding.)
>
> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
> about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
> it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
> machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
>
> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
> time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little 
> closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite 
> familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what 
> exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
> pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
>
> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
> level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Latin

[Bernd Oppolzer]

No english verson of "Adeste fideles"?
In German we have one (since centuries, I believe): "Herbei, o Ihr 
Glaeubigen" (I omitted the Umlaut)

one of the more powerful Christmas songs IMO

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 18.09.2022 um 15:17 schrieb Bob Bridges:

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest daughter was 
taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared entirely from the public 
schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was Episcopal not Catholic, so I never 
experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm not sorry that so many old Christmas carols 
have been translated to English.  But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  
I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313




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Re: Latin

[Mary Kay Tubello]

I am grateful that I took four years of Latin in high school. It helps so much 
with English and other languages too!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:18 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Latin

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest 
daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared 
entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was 
Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm 
not sorry that so many old Christmas carols have been translated to English.  
But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in the 
same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, frequently by 
strangulation.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
English.  Dominus vobiscum.

--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
> communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
> makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.

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Re: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 16:35:57 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Net Nannies embody an advanced technology known as Artificial Stupidity (AS); 
>this same technology can be seen in rext to voice and voice to text features, 
>as well as in filters that block legitimate medical sites while failing to 
>block some pornographic sites. In this case I believe that the damage was 
>cause by the URL rewriting in GMU's email server. And, no, there is no way to 
>turn it off.
>
Where's rot13 when you need it?  And in days of yore I was accustomed to
seeing writers penetrate (euphemism) nannies by encrypting message bodies
and simply appending the decryption keys in the clear.

>Well thought out security measures are a blessing; shooting from the hip is a 
>curse. Sort of like auditors, when they are good they are very, very good, and 
>when they are bad they are horrid.
>
It would be less computational cost for nannies to verify blessed URLs and
pass them on untransformed.  But then they wouldn't be able to track the
recipients.  Similarly for URL shorteners: what's the likely business model
for providers of such services?

-- 
gil

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Re: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 18:51:56 +, Robert Prins wrote:

>And ahem, human (self-censored) is not trimming the whole fluckin' mess
>when you reply to posts.
>
Ergonomics.  It wastes time and energy to press the Delete key
so many times.

And it may be illegal to remove the originator's legal notice or to
provide a quotation out of context.  And some readers are unaware
of the Archives.

-- 
gil

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Re: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Robert Prins]

And ahem, human (self-censored) is not trimming the whole fluckin' mess
when you reply to posts.

Robert
-- 
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
Some REXX code for use on z/OS


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Re: Assembler courses

[Tom Brennan]

Ah... Visual Basic.  OO certainly does make sense with Windows 
programming (and I assume other GUI's).  The idea of the GUI writers to 
send messages back and forth between "objects" is genius.  So each bit 
of code (say for a button or a text box object) just sits there doing 
nothing until a message is sent to it.  But on other platforms, forcing 
me to turn something into a "class" that is just a bunch of subroutines 
and control blocks seems like more work than it's worth.


On 9/18/2022 6:11 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all the fuss was about: 
"object-oriented" didn't seem very different from traditional programming that I'd been 
doing for 25 years.  (At the same time I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not 
support this property or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different 
about OO coding.)

Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.

What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little closer, 
but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite familiar with 
indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what exactly happens with 
the USING instruction still eludes me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.

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Re: Latin

[Tom Brennan]

The last Dominus vobiscum was about all I remember, because it woke me 
up around time to go home :)


On 9/18/2022 6:17 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest daughter was 
taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared entirely from the public 
schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was Episcopal not Catholic, so I never 
experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm not sorry that so many old Christmas carols 
have been translated to English.  But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  
I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in the 
same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, frequently by 
strangulation.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
English.  Dominus vobiscum.

--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:

I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.


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Re: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Seymour J Metz]

Net Nannies embody an advanced technology known as Artificial Stupidity (AS); 
this same technology can be seen in rext to voice and voice to text features, 
as well as in filters that block legitimate medical sites while failing to 
block some pornographic sites. In this case I believe that the damage was cause 
by the URL rewriting in GMU's email server. And, no, there is no way to turn it 
off.

Well thought out security measures are a blessing; shooting from the hip is a 
curse. Sort of like auditors, when they are good they are very, very good, and 
when they are bad they are horrid.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter x23353 [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 12:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

Wow, talk about "nanny state" link protection - have a gander at the hugely 
complex mess that René's perfectly reasonable links to the IDCP and Marist 
copies of Mr. Ehrman's opus turned into below.  Someone else's web link safety 
filter added "https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com; around René's 
link and then my employer's filter added " 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1CV3RpwL6t7MZPGZcN8Utx2gCZKqPLTx1iFGwVkGWpgYveQ8nayN6dvptBZ_hyoVz-pRMje8ao7ZpGAXg_FJ4jhfoMfQ_40PFkOLJ58f7CFq2tqV8hN3VexA6QuDwJKoLcD0BJ-dvkop6qquiDoLC1rJPi4r1BEnyNAkT46LWdDBlUlRyV70ODznIQwitABH-2J0UO9daQCY_VAZ1rhYajV7DGnxa9n_cv5nOyo2RoDP_8eDFc1BFcEkPfgumQkJghZToYtb_HKDBxsXmX8DMb97NepIJYjGl-0w2DMr-3sjyFW2Dxes9uNPzm9X1-KFcVFjZhl6RezQrPKpWixz1VZ2O4GKWRjOK2hdWCvK2kmeIJt8N3x1Kk6TFU4MnNGOw_9NRanzQl7LM3vsmbxCQCIRCs27-kmk_FGvl0v3WvfYauFrAVYNK4euY9UdpiXqrHCEAnCiZNWDN-hJ08HzhMQ/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3;
 around that filter.

I know it is important to keep the untrained masses from clicking on dangerous 
links, but this is getting really ridiculous.

Strangely, I can only see René's actual email to the list on the IBM-MAIN 
archive.  I never received it here, and it did not wind up in my employer's 
email filter cache (off-prem quarantine of just plain junk and actually 
dangerous emails).  I only received Seymour's response to René's message.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 10:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

I haven't read it, but surely nobody could question the credentials of the 
author (ז״ל). I miss him.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://secure-web.cisco.com/11HIy9-D0NNoIroFkGAgm9wFzXjVNB-0r0G3BobT9Fmi5Vx7wlaGVjd-zEg4r_CHMrF5Sx-JYAa4Lm3ouhBAcBU5xncOzedYpQv18SRk4mjIiW6O6qNXBksUfdF8x7WTLjfoHoSrliXT829YTLzk57tbJIT2YYrwi9bRjvV0jyn68vW6rRiUoaG-gGWNfguiq-cRhPL04bUPY29Tj9Y2aND49VbZZa9ZcGBdf-XPj-qfZjp0YdbUGaNnwXUQCwa-Bpdo0GmQyQp1dkSX_7MdW5SQF7WzdGECuXWy9WVY61W1ctD5VS4Ka5wummd3keeaHeaFg0Y1-Q5-rF0i2P_J8NyAPejoT7BRh3dsZ_tw-CxHunKG7xmpy8ZohpsAIwIm7hs-rUiU_SUrmk9kGSMsPs_DwtDsr-Qkw5pK2gh1iBjKz0Pltya9HjlzC1zDxm3IfIb1gxTWa-rESXzBfVatHoA/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F%2Asmetz3__%3Bfg%21%21Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg%21ImPNbMPUrUVpkPeOd2RbYZN1oF-ZEdWfIW9gt1rwgJYYfJKHkammPPpw_A4YtbGJGiCOG2-BZIOB8Q4AmqG0LA%24


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

I don’t know if someone on the assembler list mentioned this already, but 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1XRm4nx9OjGCoTXFTwQ9_ryvBzB3Vi6bvgTSf0L36Us2w7mNS3nUvU6kC9GlIb0sieZjIM2gygrNcL7yuoQkzaq6E3ns1-YHo0DWYgKKBwoavzLGg3U6IOzH4c_hLFrm-XufhT2y9-VWNEuLdie2mOCBNl_9KJGvx390uCwljuA55p8-O2m6CQZqS-aedy-uAgJl-lammHDE1B-PK2eUUrxzW8XJ0LRpOMr-BM1Y1UXZ0iJHZjzTDS3UCjCWfut-O7dtkDGHhTfyHm73BjP0G6BsaEjsuhxcOM0yLWAevRHIP5EcLxGi6mNS9G9GutjNn3A3M7IxrPnngVzY-XeiicdzV-t3eRwTLzyxIkpaGOSXYkaLndqMAuagieP6gQrWUxP1q0b_m8R1e3IrRNNJjTyDwREY9dxoJlu-RKmvzDuMwCKZAL88uaFoZ9vGp1otNbpU1MoK8_IfKx9XY2x8tuQ/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%2A3A%2A2F%2A2Fidcp.marist.edu%2A2Fdocuments%2A2F33945%2A2F44724%2A2FAssembler.V2.alntext%2A2BV2.00.pdf%2A2Fad61965e-8485-65e1-f385-e5cd56f08c63%2A3Ft%2A3D1551806232272%26data%3D05%2A7C01%2A7Csmetz3%2A40gmu.edu%2A7Ca8141b8f50784d579bf208da9978d579%2A7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%2A7C0%2A7C0%2A7C637991043314749524%2A7CUnknown%2A7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%2A3D%2A7C3000%2A7C%2A7C%2A7C%26sdata%3Dc0XkXdhzNBoLf%2A2Bu1AjGbrI9WXLtivAFVMotq8J32cc0%2A3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ%21%21Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg%21ImPNbMPUrUVpkPeOd2RbYZN1oF-ZEdWfIW9gt1rwgJYYfJKHkammPPpw_A4YtbGJGiCOG2-BZIOB8Q6vStHKog%24
   

Net nanny voodoo [was: RE: Assembler courses]

[Farley, Peter x23353]

Wow, talk about "nanny state" link protection - have a gander at the hugely 
complex mess that René's perfectly reasonable links to the IDCP and Marist 
copies of Mr. Ehrman's opus turned into below.  Someone else's web link safety 
filter added "https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com; around René's 
link and then my employer's filter added " https://urldefense.com/v3; around 
that filter.

I know it is important to keep the untrained masses from clicking on dangerous 
links, but this is getting really ridiculous.

Strangely, I can only see René's actual email to the list on the IBM-MAIN 
archive.  I never received it here, and it did not wind up in my employer's 
email filter cache (off-prem quarantine of just plain junk and actually 
dangerous emails).  I only received Seymour's response to René's message.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 10:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

I haven't read it, but surely nobody could question the credentials of the 
author (ז״ל). I miss him.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!ImPNbMPUrUVpkPeOd2RbYZN1oF-ZEdWfIW9gt1rwgJYYfJKHkammPPpw_A4YtbGJGiCOG2-BZIOB8Q4AmqG0LA$
  


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

I don’t know if someone on the assembler list mentioned this already, but 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fidcp.marist.edu*2Fdocuments*2F33945*2F44724*2FAssembler.V2.alntext*2BV2.00.pdf*2Fad61965e-8485-65e1-f385-e5cd56f08c63*3Ft*3D1551806232272data=05*7C01*7Csmetz3*40gmu.edu*7Ca8141b8f50784d579bf208da9978d579*7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb*7C0*7C0*7C637991043314749524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7Csdata=c0XkXdhzNBoLf*2Bu1AjGbrI9WXLtivAFVMotq8J32cc0*3Dreserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!ImPNbMPUrUVpkPeOd2RbYZN1oF-ZEdWfIW9gt1rwgJYYfJKHkammPPpw_A4YtbGJGiCOG2-BZIOB8Q6vStHKog$
   
 should be everything you need, and it’s free! Plus other resources on 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fidcp.marist.edu*2Fassembler-resourcesdata=05*7C01*7Csmetz3*40gmu.edu*7Ca8141b8f50784d579bf208da9978d579*7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb*7C0*7C0*7C637991043314749524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7Csdata=fIPsXHRJZ4VJO1kJdZzNvg*2FZCiI63Nb1yEpcTW49QQo*3Dreserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!ImPNbMPUrUVpkPeOd2RbYZN1oF-ZEdWfIW9gt1rwgJYYfJKHkammPPpw_A4YtbGJGiCOG2-BZIOB8Q4zauEFww$
   
.

Actually, it is so good that I tried to get the bookie source to modernise it a 
bit - make it searchable etc. I called John’s old boss and department … but 
it’s complicated …

Best regards,.

René.

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 15:11, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what 
> all the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different 
> from traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At 
> the same time I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not 
> support this property or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ 
> understand what was different about OO coding.)
>
> 

Re: Output redirection

[Seymour J Metz]

In a TSO address space you can push a stack element that routes input and/or 
output through a dataset; that won't affect direct TGET or TPUT. I don't know 
what complications Unix System Services adds.

As others have suggested, you can always run a batch job with SYSTSPRT 
allocated to a dataset, as long as you are only running commands that use 
PUTLINE/PUTGET rather than direct TPUT.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2022 10:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Output redirection

I had cause to use RLIST UNIXMAP * ALL, but the output was voluminous. "No
problem", thinks I, "I'll just redirect it to a file". But that only got me
some truncated output plus:
IKJ56652I You attempted to run an authorized command or program.  This is
not supported under the Dynamic TSO Environment.

FOMF0139I Authorized commands are not supported



Is there an easy way to run such a command and send the output to a data
set?


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Re: dfsort - microseconds (STCK/TOD)

[Stefan Lezzi]

Hi Kolusu,

Now I get this, which looks better, but seams still not to be correct:
...
2022-09-12T13:55:27.836152+:00
2022-09-12T13:55:27.836152+:00
...
2022-09-12T13:57:28.836152+:00
2022-09-12T13:57:29.836152+:00
2022-09-12T13:57:30.836152+:00
2022-09-12T13:57:59.836153+:00
2022-09-12T13:56:58.836152+:00
2022-09-12T13:58:09.836153+:00
...
2022-09-12T14:01:29.836153+:00
2022-09-12T14:01:30.836153+:00
2022-09-12T14:02:27.836097+:00
2022-09-12T14:02:28.836097+:00
2022-09-12T14:02:28.836097+:00
...
2022-09-12T14:06:29.836097+:00
2022-09-12T14:06:30.836097+:00
2022-09-12T14:07:27.836098+:00
2022-09-12T14:07:27.836098+:00
...

I can understand, if you don't have the time to analyze this: I'll try to find 
the error myself some time later.
I'm very happy that you showed us the idea how to extract the microseconds!

Stefan

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Re: Assembler courses

[Seymour J Metz]

I've been around longer than that and have needed assembler in every job I've 
had, although there were a few short assignments that didn't require any 
assembler. YMMV/


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
T Roller [044ef325f6c3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2022 3:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

Learning assembler is like taking latin in high school. It might help you on 
Jeopardy but will not be of much help in real life. I took assembler in college 
& never used it and never worked at an employer that used it. That’s a dozen+ 
employers over 45 years.

Sent from Proton Mail for iOS

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:11 PM, Gary Weinhold  wrote:

> To help a person who has COBOL and C language experience learn to write 
> assembler, I would like them to learn from the start both reentrant and 
> baseless coding techniques. Is there training available that assumes the 
> instruction set available on the z12 is the starting point and that teaches 
> reentrancy as the norm?
>
> (Cross-posted to IBM-Main and Assembler-list)
>
> Gary Weinhold
> Senior Application Architect
> DATAKINETICS | Data Performance & Optimization
> Phone:+1.613.523.5500 x216
> Email: weinh...@dkl.com
> Visit us online at 
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1vqA2k6CTgjgg8mhdlf0YZ5DHsld_L3DqnLcBlHddEtmoI3aDgNAilQVnecYxA_qQtHy_d5QfsfSuV-yiqQLIm68Ggw5L5DKnFgzxb_HhgXnFWAirGJn0gYYsSYrztoyjqh1kZBN7tW_nor9miGMNOktiK8UmQ0_HMkAtTdkZ0hHQHmmbcBxMmNeFkA7BOSc_RpKx2XnUgjL3OoZ9dABlJQOfakUt4eAQtGZraFOzuu8dJzsbYzfIp-cP510meJ6ZaX3TtthhGal__CXieb8Pgge07M0AWhdGQAUeui6XyQmbJqNkLxBi9y_L5dKl8_rKug1GDjQX9WmaX3vTxeNPEVDweYwSxQcPYGZ3bsw57hPxAjpiTRO4eUMp-jAlzhCEj0d0FcAz6TkAttsZ4Mab1VZiudeb_yGNHwJbOa40M9aBjylkobPyUvElGpVAqHSM/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.DKL.com
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Re: Assembler courses

[Seymour J Metz]

Pascal doesn't have associative arrays. Perhaps you are thinking of Delphi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2022 5:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

Never used PASCAL?  I'm surprised.  I haven't learned it yet, but when I first 
heard about it (it had associative arrays, which I thought of as pretty darned 
cool) I was fascinated.  But for the first few years it was all BASIC, PL/1, a 
little FORTRAN.  Later it was all COBOL and CLIST.  Nowadays it's all REXX and 
various flavors of Visual Basic.  Though I've never learned it myself, I had 
the impression that PASCAL is in pretty wide use.

I bought myself a C compiler at one point, but tried it and never took it up 
again; didn't like all the up-front code that had to be in a program for it to 
run.

(My very first employer handed me a task to write a Backgammon game in FORTRAN. 
 It turns out I like writing such things, and my ancient memory tells me the 
program I wrote played pretty well.  I never did figure out why in the world 
they wanted it, though.  And it occurs to me now that maybe they meant only a 
program that would allow two humans to play against each other.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Justice: When you get what you deserve
Mercy: When you don't get what you deserve
Grace: When you get what you don't deserve */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Joe 
Monk
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2022 17:38

My GE 1101 (1st level Gen Engineering) class was PASCAL programming on a 
DecSystem running TOPS20.

Never used it again.

--- On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 3:55 PM Brian Westerman < 
brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com> wrote:
> ME Too!!   I can't remember ever using my Fortran after the class was
> over.  Luckily the instructor also offered an assembler class that he
> taught "on the side" for an extra $50.  I still use the stuff he
> taught us almost every day.
>
> --- On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 19:29:01 +, Farley, Peter x23353 <
> >I learned assembler early via OJT at one of my first permanent jobs, and
> got to use it more and more as I moved to other employers.  Knowing
> assembler got me in the door at more than one of those employers.
> >
> >It was the FORTRAN I learned in engineering college that I never used
> anywhere else.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Seymour J Metz]

The OO concepts might be clearer in, e.g., ooREXX, Smalltalk.

USING is a pseudo-op that tells the assembler how to translate between a 
symbolic address and a base-displacement pair. In its simplest form it is only 
a promise that particular registers will point to particular addresses. It's 
probably best that you master that form before trying dependent and labelled 
USING, but I strongly urge you to learn those as well.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all the 
fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from traditional 
programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time I was 
frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this property or 
method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different about OO 
coding.)

Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.

What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little closer, 
but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite familiar with 
indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what exactly happens with 
the USING instruction still eludes me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.

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Re: Latin

[Seymour J Metz]

Given how much scientific nomenclature derives from Greek and Latin, I don't 
see either as obsolete, and Latin might help the learning of other Romance 
languages.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:17 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Latin

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest 
daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared 
entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was 
Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm 
not sorry that so many old Christmas carols have been translated to English.  
But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in the 
same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, frequently by 
strangulation.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
English.  Dominus vobiscum.

--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
> communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
> makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Seymour J Metz]

I haven't read it, but surely nobody could question the credentials of the 
author (ז״ל). I miss him.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler courses

I don’t know if someone on the assembler list mentioned this already, but 
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fidcp.marist.edu%2Fdocuments%2F33945%2F44724%2FAssembler.V2.alntext%2BV2.00.pdf%2Fad61965e-8485-65e1-f385-e5cd56f08c63%3Ft%3D1551806232272data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca8141b8f50784d579bf208da9978d579%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637991043314749524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=c0XkXdhzNBoLf%2Bu1AjGbrI9WXLtivAFVMotq8J32cc0%3Dreserved=0
 

 should be everything you need, and it’s free! Plus other resources on 
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fidcp.marist.edu%2Fassembler-resourcesdata=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca8141b8f50784d579bf208da9978d579%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637991043314749524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=fIPsXHRJZ4VJO1kJdZzNvg%2FZCiI63Nb1yEpcTW49QQo%3Dreserved=0
 
.

Actually, it is so good that I tried to get the bookie source to modernise it a 
bit - make it searchable etc. I called John’s old boss and department … but 
it’s complicated …

Best regards,.

René.

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 15:11, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all 
> the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from 
> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time 
> I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this property 
> or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different about OO 
> coding.)
>
> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
> about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
> it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
> machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
>
> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
> time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little 
> closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite 
> familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what 
> exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
> pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
>
> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
> level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


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Re: Latin

[Seymour J Metz]

If it were up to me, students would be required to learn languages from 
multiple families. I'd probably treat Germanic and Romance as separate rather 
than lumping them together as Indo'European.

ObTMTOWTDI The same applies to programming languages; I'd require learning 
several languages with drastically different paradigms, and several computers 
with radicalloy different architectures. I would not require either 
architecture du jour or language du jour.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Joel C. Ewing [jce.ebe...@cox.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 10:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Latin

In the 1960's Latin was still highly recommended in the U.S. for anyone
expecting to attend college.   If you started in 9th grade, you could
even take 4 years of Latin by graduation from high school, although many
college-bound students elected only 2 and took either some French or
Spanish.  So many words in English and in many European languages have
their roots in Latin that a knowledge of Latin gave you an edge in
building vocabulary in multiple languages.  For English-only speakers,
it served as an introduction to language concepts that barely exist in
English: of noun gender and declension causing the base forms of written
and spoken words to change based on context.  About the only examples of
this in English are the subjective and objective forms of personal
pronouns (I/me, he/him, she/her. they/them); and the flagrant misuse and
abuse of these forms by public & TV speakers, who ought to know better,
shows even this limited use of declension in English is obviously not
understood by many.

One could argue that a knowledge of the basics of Latin could serve as a
bridge to understanding other languages (including English) in the same
way that knowing the basics of one procedural programming language
serves as a bridge to understanding other programming languages.

 Joel C. Ewing

On 9/18/22 08:17, Bob Bridges wrote:
> "Emmanuel", indeed :).
>
> I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest 
> daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared 
> entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was 
> Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm 
> not sorry that so many old Christmas carols have been translated to English.  
> But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  I do miss that.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
> their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in 
> the same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, 
> frequently by strangulation.  -Dave Barry */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
>
> Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
> little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
> English.  Dominus vobiscum.
>
> --- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
>> I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
>> communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
>> makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
Joel C. Ewing

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Re: Latin

[David Spiegel]

Hi Joel,
To your point, I read an article on German grammar (same as Yiddish) to 
figure out the difference between "mir" and "mich".
It turns out that one is dative and the other is accusative. Without 
learning Latin (more than 50 years ago), this article would've been a 
lot harder to read.


Regards,
David

On 2022-09-18 10:31, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
In the 1960's Latin was still highly recommended in the U.S. for 
anyone expecting to attend college.   If you started in 9th grade, you 
could even take 4 years of Latin by graduation from high school, 
although many college-bound students elected only 2 and took either 
some French or Spanish.  So many words in English and in many European 
languages have their roots in Latin that a knowledge of Latin gave you 
an edge in building vocabulary in multiple languages.  For 
English-only speakers, it served as an introduction to language 
concepts that barely exist in English: of noun gender and declension 
causing the base forms of written and spoken words to change based on 
context.  About the only examples of this in English are the 
subjective and objective forms of personal pronouns (I/me, he/him, 
she/her. they/them); and the flagrant misuse and abuse of these forms 
by public & TV speakers, who ought to know better, shows even this 
limited use of declension in English is obviously not understood by many.


One could argue that a knowledge of the basics of Latin could serve as 
a bridge to understanding other languages (including English) in the 
same way that knowing the basics of one procedural programming 
language serves as a bridge to understanding other programming languages.


    Joel C. Ewing

On 9/18/22 08:17, Bob Bridges wrote:

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my 
youngest daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long 
disappeared entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), 
and my upbringing was Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced 
the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm not sorry that so many old Christmas 
carols have been translated to English.  But NO ONE sings "Adeste, 
fideles" any more!  I do miss that.


---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown 
children and their parents continued to live together, under the same 
roof, sometimes in the same small, crowded room, year in and year 
out, until they died, frequently by strangulation. -Dave Barry */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
Behalf Of Tom Brennan

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other 
than the little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they 
decided to switch to English.  Dominus vobiscum.


--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly 
trying to communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the 
years.  Plus, it makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.

--
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Re: Latin

[Joel C. Ewing]

In the 1960's Latin was still highly recommended in the U.S. for anyone 
expecting to attend college.   If you started in 9th grade, you could 
even take 4 years of Latin by graduation from high school, although many 
college-bound students elected only 2 and took either some French or 
Spanish.  So many words in English and in many European languages have 
their roots in Latin that a knowledge of Latin gave you an edge in 
building vocabulary in multiple languages.  For English-only speakers, 
it served as an introduction to language concepts that barely exist in 
English: of noun gender and declension causing the base forms of written 
and spoken words to change based on context.  About the only examples of 
this in English are the subjective and objective forms of personal 
pronouns (I/me, he/him, she/her. they/them); and the flagrant misuse and 
abuse of these forms by public & TV speakers, who ought to know better, 
shows even this limited use of declension in English is obviously not 
understood by many.


One could argue that a knowledge of the basics of Latin could serve as a 
bridge to understanding other languages (including English) in the same 
way that knowing the basics of one procedural programming language 
serves as a bridge to understanding other programming languages.


    Joel C. Ewing

On 9/18/22 08:17, Bob Bridges wrote:

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest daughter was 
taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared entirely from the public 
schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was Episcopal not Catholic, so I never 
experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm not sorry that so many old Christmas carols 
have been translated to English.  But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  
I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in the 
same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, frequently by 
strangulation.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
English.  Dominus vobiscum.

--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:

I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.

--
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--
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Re: Assembler courses

[Peter Vels]

Hi Bob,

I think about a USING statement as a "promise" that a register will contain
an appropriate address at runtime. The statement:

USING  MyArea,R9

means (to me): I promise that at runtime register 9 will contain the
address of an area that is mapped (described) by the DSECT called MyArea.
This just tells the assembler to use register 9 as a base register for
instructions addressing anything in MyArea. In other words, MyArea should
be at offset 0 at runtime.

Hope that makes some sense.

Regards,
Peter



On Sun, 18 Sept 2022 at 23:12, Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all
> the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from
> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same
> time I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this
> property or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was
> different about OO coding.)
>
> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an
> enthusiast, about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of
> Basic itself, but it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available
> on all Windows machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
>
> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.
> Every time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a
> little closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got
> quite familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but
> what exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can
> be pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
>
> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with
> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there.
> Higher level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse
> me.
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Assembler courses

[René Jansen]

I don’t know if someone on the assembler list mentioned this already, but 
https://idcp.marist.edu/documents/33945/44724/Assembler.V2.alntext+V2.00.pdf/ad61965e-8485-65e1-f385-e5cd56f08c63?t=1551806232272
 

 should be everything you need, and it’s free! Plus other resources on 
https://idcp.marist.edu/assembler-resources 
.

Actually, it is so good that I tried to get the bookie source to modernise it a 
bit - make it searchable etc. I called John’s old boss and department … but 
it’s complicated …

Best regards,.

René.

> On 18 Sep 2022, at 15:11, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all 
> the fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from 
> traditional programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time 
> I was frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this property 
> or method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different about OO 
> coding.)
> 
> Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
> about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
> it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
> machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.
> 
> What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
> time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little 
> closer, but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite 
> familiar with indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what 
> exactly happens with the USING instruction still eludes me.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
> pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59
> 
> As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
> instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
> level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


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Latin

[Bob Bridges]

"Emmanuel", indeed :).

I never took Latin (and I was astonished when I learned that my youngest 
daughter was taking it in high school; I thought it had long disappeared 
entirely from the public schools, but apparently not), and my upbringing was 
Episcopal not Catholic, so I never experienced the liturgy in Latin.  And I'm 
not sorry that so many old Christmas carols have been translated to English.  
But NO ONE sings "Adeste, fideles" any more!  I do miss that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Back in the old days, most families were close-knit.  Grown children and 
their parents continued to live together, under the same roof, sometimes in the 
same small, crowded room, year in and year out, until they died, frequently by 
strangulation.  -Dave Barry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

Uh oh, maybe that's my problem :)  I never learned any Latin other than the 
little bit I heard in church as a kid, right before they decided to switch to 
English.  Dominus vobiscum.

--- On 9/17/2022 9:25 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> I had to take Latin as well, and while I never used it directly trying to 
> communicate with anyone, it has been a great help over the years.  Plus, it 
> makes me not sound as dumb as I really am.

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Re: Assembler courses

[Bob Bridges]

Twenty years ago I wrote a few programs for Excel, and didn't see what all the 
fuss was about: "object-oriented" didn't seem very different from traditional 
programming that I'd been doing for 25 years.  (At the same time I was 
frequently infuriated at the message "...does not support this property or 
method", exactly because I ~didn't~ understand what was different about OO 
coding.)

Eventually a VBA programmer advised me a bit more, and I'm now an enthusiast, 
about OO at least.  Not so much about the Visual flavors of Basic itself, but 
it was my introduction to OO and it is at least available on all Windows 
machines and in all MS Office apps, which is handy.

What confuses me (so far) is the concept of addressability in HLASM.  Every 
time I make a stab at writing my first assembler program I get a little closer, 
but I'm still not there yet.  In other assemblers I got quite familiar with 
indirect and offset addressing - it isn't that - but what exactly happens with 
the USING instruction still eludes me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Revenge can be bitter-sweet.  But if you sit back and watch, karma can be 
pure entertainment.  -found on Facebook 2015 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 00:59

As for programming, I seem to do better starting at the bottom, with 
instructions, registers, PSW bits and such, and moving up from there. Higher 
level languages and especially Object Oriented code tend to confuse me.

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Re: Assembler courses

[David Spiegel]

The 2nd edition is selling for $291.03. That's a lot of money for a book.

On 2022-09-18 06:09, Arthur Fichtl wrote:

You might take a look also at this book, author: Carmine A. Cannatello

"Advanced assembler language and MVS interfaces (2nd ed.): for IBM 
systems and application programmers"


https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.acm.org%2Fprofile%2F81100290810data=05%7C01%7C%7C68788ad26697499026d008da995ded40%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637990926008070822%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=bnaX8NJ6nqJ6L%2F9pe9l84mOK2HNL8sFHTMRtYhW5jSI%3Dreserved=0 






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Assembler courses

[Arthur Fichtl]

You might take a look also at this book, author: Carmine A. Cannatello

"Advanced assembler language and MVS interfaces (2nd ed.): for IBM
systems and application programmers"

https://dl.acm.org/profile/81100290810


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Re: Strange FTP behavior

[Jake Anderson]

Hi

Something I didn't include in my original post

The Linux path from where the file is being GET to mainframe. The Linux
path is mounted to a windows server, so the file is available in windows
but mapped to LINUX

So as a test I copied the file to Linux local disk and tried ftp and the
get operation works.

The FTP JCL is spawned by webserver which inturn runs batch to do GET

Earlier

Strange thing is that it works perfectly from submitting the batch natively
within tso but when it is spawned by webserver it fails

The webserver has a started task in mainframe and I don't see any error in
it's log

While doing GET there is no data transfer but it destroys the local file in
windows without any data transfer



On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 6:21 PM Jake Anderson 
wrote:

> Ftp trace didn't show any error causing zero transfer
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:03 PM Michael Babcock 
> wrote:
>
>> Jake, did you add TRACE to the PARM on the EXEC PGM=FTP statement?
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 6:27 AM Jake Anderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello
>> >
>> > Cross posted
>> >
>> > I was able to create the user with RESTRICTED attribute
>> >
>> > I have given a surrogate access to a STC owner is to the ID which I
>> created
>> > with RESTRICTED attribute
>> >
>> > Here when we submit job with USER=EXTBATCH
>> > It internally does a FTP to a Linux server. For connecting the Linux
>> using
>> > FTP we are using ID created in Linux which is wmMF01
>> >
>> > The FTP logon is successful but when it tries to do a get operation on
>> an
>> > existing file in Linux to mainframe then it doesn't transfer instead it
>> > gives zero bytes transferred
>> >
>> > To isolate the issue I tried to run the same batch using my own
>> Mainframe
>> > ID and wmMF01 but I was able to transfer the ID fron Linux to mainframe
>> > without any problem.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately this is not even throwing any error message to debug and I
>> > know that this is due to the RESTRICTED ATTRIBUTE
>> >
>> > There were some more case studies I did
>> >
>> > 1 ) When I submit the JCL with USER=EXTBATCH the transfer works
>> > perfectly fine
>> >
>> > I did enable FTP DEBUG ALL but no message is displayed about zero bytes
>> > getting transferred
>> >
>> > I hope I am missing some BPX racf profile for which the started task
>> owner
>> > is supposed to be permitted and I am not sure what BPX profile will
>> allow
>> > the FTP to take place
>> >
>> > EXTBATCH has OMVS segment, Started task owner too has OMVS segment and
>> it's
>> > default groups too have GID
>> >
>> > Could someone please point to a right direction on troubleshooting this
>> in
>> > detail
>> >
>> > Jake
>> >
>> > --
>> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> >
>> --
>> Michael Babcock
>> OneMain Financial
>> z/OS Systems Programmer, Lead
>>
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>>
>

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