[IceHorses] Re: Bits
Thank you for getting back to me :) I only want to do what's best for her. I don't want to hurt her at all! I think I might have a D-ring or an Eggbutt somewhere around here ;) If not I have to put an order into Country Supply anyway and will pick one up.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits
it really unsettles a horse to be moved! I am trying to get Trausti used to things in increments so he wont get PTSD :) Tonite is his first nite in with fox, I put fox in with him and nasi. Trausti is a lover not a fighter and when my bad boys go after him he just says hey, I dont want any trouble and walks away. But i think it will help his anxiety level to feel really ensconced in the herd so I have been letting him touch noses with fox a week and now they seem ok. FOx is so big he needs more food and the icies need less so it will work out because fox will just be eating away and they will already be done so there wont be trouble. I read it takes a horse in a place a full four seasons before they feel totally at home. But I believe in the wild they roam constantly, so i think they are bound to each other, not the place so much. Like they say cats are bound to a place so when you move they will try and go back because they have other cats in the area they visit with etc. And my horses, when we have camped on big group rides as long as they were together they seemed as relaxed as if they were at home. Also when one leaves and another comes in, they all get a little unsettled til it all gets worked out. Trausti is getting more relaxed every day. I put Jas in with curly ray the donkey and oh my gosh, he hates that little donkey with a vengeance. He just stands and tail switches and glares at him while curly ray brays in his face! But I hated Jas had to be alone and now with curly ray he wont be run off his food and can be with a friend. even one he detests :). Its good to change them around sometimes, otherwise they seem to get relationships set in concrete. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
[IceHorses] Re: Bits
Well she hasn't been ridden in 3 or more years. I think in the past two months she's been backed 4 times and two of those times were horrible! I think alot might have to do with getting moved from place to place and learning to trust. I'm trying to give her some one on one time which she hasn't had in a LONG time, she seems to really like that :)
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
--- Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:56:38 -0700, you wrote: > > >Has anyone ever seen an > >icelandic-style rider / trainer, or a professional > / certified / holar / FT > >trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox > trot? or a running walk? > > Yes - but not on purpose.<< BWAHH!!! This got me soo tickled!! I love showing people how to get change of gait on a horse with SLIGHT shifts in body position and hand position. Of course, I do have to admit that when I first started cueing for change of gaits, those positions were exggerated, but I NEVER had to sit on a cantle of yank on the mouth (especially with those NASTY bits used in the pics Karen sent). Guess that means I am a better rider then them, and I consider myself an advanced beginner. No wait, I just crave learning and I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE HORSE. Yes, that must be it. I care, plus I don't do it for money. Someone mentioned lowering one's standards for money. This is Nevada, and I will tell you, prostitution IS legal here, so I wonder why there aren't more Icelandic trainers in this state? Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
> There may not be obvious soring, but what about the mechanical aids? Hi Judy, It seems people only associate gait manipulation with the extreme: BigLick soring practices of using caustic agents directly to the horses' legs and/or hooves. However, long before the TWH Big Lick industry got to that point, they began with more subtle methods. . . . . The point is, they started manipulating gait, which didn't seem "so bad" or perhaps wasn't even recognized as such -- maybe someone thought they were "balancing" or improving a horse's gait. . . But it was a slippery slope, and down they went from there. I think it is incredibly smug, (naive?) or arrogant to think this will not happen to the Icelandic breed when already there are weighted quarter and bell boots being offered under the guise of protection.Why would boots "used for protection" need to come in such an array of weights???Does more weight = more protection? I wouldn't think so . . . But more weight DOES change a horses' way of traveling and/or it's animation.And it's been advocated for eons that one of the ways to cure a pacy horse is to put heavier shoes on the front than the back. Adding and changing the weight on each leg IS mechanical manipulation. And it's worrisome where this course will take the breed. Already, the standard in the Icelandic show ring is the horse who lifts his knees in a 90 or more degree angle. Ten, fifteen years ago, you didn't see this so much.Now, it's common. What will be done to get more, more more so as to stand out from the crowd? Also, just as an aside: I was at an all-gaited breed horse show, sponsored by two different gaited horse clubs that had a DQP* . All horses, I think with the exception of the Peruvian Pasos, had to be inspected, including the 10 Icelandics or so that were present, before and after a class if you placed. This was about 6-7 years ago. It's interesting to me the FOSH apparently does not require this of the Icelandics participating in their shows now. -- Renee M. in Michigan *DQP stands for :"Designated Qualified Person", which is someone who is sent from the US Dept. of Ag to inspect and enforce the Horse Protection Act at horseshows)
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:56:38 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone ever seen an >icelandic-style rider / trainer, or a professional / certified / holar / FT >trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox trot? or a running walk? Yes - but not on purpose. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
> What bothers me more is the way Icelandic horse evaluations are conducted. > You have these professional riders riding on the loins (see caption on > Gudmar picture) which beyond the poor equitation, ventroflexes the back > making the horse more apt to travel laterally (i.e. rack/tolt), > strong-arming the horses' heads up so as to keep them in gait, and > previous > to the event, while the horse is in "training" for evaluations, you have > people using weighted quarterboots and bellboots to get the horse lifting > his front legs up higher, the snapping action of the front legs and > structure-stressing, above 90 degree angle knees telling the story. > > How can NATURAL gait be judged at all under these kinds of circumstances? > What IS actually be scored at these things? That is correct; there's nothing natural about it; there's so many mechanicals aids being used. And that stuff is not inherited, so evaluations are zip, zero, nada, of no importance, no value. Here is a question that has been asked before: Has anyone ever seen an icelandic-style rider / trainer, or a professional / certified / holar / FT trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox trot? or a running walk? I don't think that they know anything about the other easy gaits. That is a huge hole in the trainer's training! The lack of knowledge is amazing. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
> vision is to "To promote all naturally gaited horse breeds in the > Pacific Northwest for pleasure or show; to provide support and > encouragement to gaited horse owners and enthusiasts; while > prohibiting artificial action devices, additional weight, or evidence > of soring." Because of the almost non-existance of soring with the > Icelandics, we are the only breed that does not have to go through DQ > or the invidual inspection by a vet. Not yet. There may not be obvious soring, but what about the mechanical aids? The gaits being exhibited now with Icelandic Horses are not natural gaits; there are too many mechanical interferences. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use - back around to saddle fit
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 03:06:16AM -, Stan Hirson, Sarah Jones wrote: > I did see it and had a good laugh over Janice's post because Karen's > take is quite accurate. "Nada". I don't want to over-promote the > videos, but I was expecting much more of a reaction. A few people > commented on Hestakaup.com and that's it. It certainly did not trigger > any discussion and there are a number of issues that have nothing to > do with biomechanics or saddles that also could have been addressed. it may just be hard for those of us who *aren't* saddle fitters though to feel we can comment intelligently. i watched the videos with great interest and enjoyment -- but since my level of saddle clue currently can be summed up by "this gave stjarni white marks, this doesn't pinch my fingers, this one i apparently still need to break in" i realize i have nothing to do but listen on that front. (the same applies on some of the other topics i could see being addressed -- like differences among breeds -- i have now looked at a lot of different horses in my barn wiht that video in mind, but not come up with anything worth saying :) still ai think the least i *should* have said, there or here or privately, is "thanks" b/c it *does* provide much food for thought! so, umm, ,belatedly -- thanks :) --vicka
[IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Renee Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think we'd be (are?) welcomed at FOSH events with our naturally-gaited > Icelandic horses. FOSH may have gotten started to protect > the TWH from abuse in the industry and offer an alternative showing venue > for those that reject the padded up, soring TWH show world, but I think they > are supportive and welcoming of ALL gaited breeds. That's the impression > I've gotten. Hello Renee, For the past two years, I have ridden my Icelandic at the FOSH sponsored Evergreen Gaited Horse Classic in Puyallup, WA. This event is open to all gaited horses--TW, gaited Morgans, Paso Finos, Icelandics, etc. There are separate classes for each breed, open classes for all breeds, and schooling classes for the novices. All classes are judged by the same judge who is (more or less) familar with the gaits and judging standards for each breed. The show's vision is to "To promote all naturally gaited horse breeds in the Pacific Northwest for pleasure or show; to provide support and encouragement to gaited horse owners and enthusiasts; while prohibiting artificial action devices, additional weight, or evidence of soring." Because of the almost non-existance of soring with the Icelandics, we are the only breed that does not have to go through DQ or the invidual inspection by a vet. This show is a lot of fun and hope anyone in the Northwest area will think about participating. Here is a link: http://www.nwgaitedhorse.com/eghc.htm Regards, Pamela
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
>Wish we had the choice of an > alternative group like FOSH is to the TWHBEA. > > Kat Hi Kat, I think we'd be (are?) welcomed at FOSH events with our naturally-gaited Icelandic horses. FOSH may have gotten started to protect the TWH from abuse in the industry and offer an alternative showing venue for those that reject the padded up, soring TWH show world, but I think they are supportive and welcoming of ALL gaited breeds. That's the impression I've gotten. The natural Icelandic horse community could certainly make FOSH their alternative group as well.By the way, does FOSH offer an alternative registry for TWH??? What bothers me more is the way Icelandic horse evaluations are conducted. . . You have these professional riders riding on the loins (see caption on Gudmar picture) which beyond the poor equitation, ventroflexes the back making the horse more apt to travel laterally (i.e. rack/tolt), strong-arming the horses' heads up so as to keep them in gait, and previous to the event, while the horse is in "training" for evaluations, you have people using weighted quarterboots and bellboots to get the horse lifting his front legs up higher, the snapping action of the front legs and structure-stressing, above 90 degree angle knees telling the story. How can NATURAL gait be judged at all under these kinds of circumstances? What IS actually be scored at these things? -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
Stan should get an award for his service to the icelandic horse through his website. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
- Original Message - From: "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Judy has been trying to draw people's attention > to things like bad saddlefit forever and then Stan comes along and > says something and its oh my GOSH a rocket scientist!! Who KNEW. > but I am SO glad, because maybe they will listen to him. . . .wont > listen to me, or most people who post regularly to this list abut > natural horsemanship and icelandic horses. Yes, it's true Judy has been a voice in the wilderness on saddle fit issues, and she's been made a pariah on more than one occasion for speaking up for the horses. Anyone who's been on these lists for any length of time knows Judy's heart and her passion for this breed. And she's taken a lot of unfounded, mean-spirited, punches for it.But what doesn't kill ya (or a list owner), just makes you stronger (in your resolve for change), you know? : ) Robyn Hood, too, has advocated for a number of years (in a more quiet way) that many saddles coming out of Iceland are not wide enough for the horses. No, Stan is not the first to discover this. But, then again, he was not standing on a podium in any way shouting "Eureka! I've discovered something NEW here!" on his blog site. No, he simply put his own experience on the web.Is he the first in the Icelandic horse community to come to the conclusion his Icelandic made saddles don't fit his horses? No, but he didn't claim to be either. As you mention, Stan's videos may reach a different owner base than what we do -- and maybe that means more people will consider their own saddle fit and a horse or two (or more) out there suffering in a too-narrow, too-long saddle will get relief. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
> --- "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I think a lot of people do not get the Quarterly. From: "prairiefemme2006" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'm surprised you say a lot of people don't belong to the U.S. Icelandic > Horse Congress. They publish the Icelandic Horse Congress Quarterly > Magazine as a benefit of membership, they maintain the U.S. Icelandic > Registry, and they are the only U.S. Association allowed to represent > Icelandics in the International Association. Wouldn't most folks who own > a registered Icelandic in the U.S. want to belong to this? < Hi, I'm only one person, but I'll lend a one-person example to back up what Judy said: : ) I've had Icelandic horses for going on 17 years. I used to belong to the USIHC -- was even on the board of directors for a couple of years in that organization. I haven't been a member for probably 8-ish years now. I don't have any incentive to be a member again. In contrast to that of the USIHC, I find the topics and focus of this list to be much more geared to where I am in my thinking / horsemanship, and what I am interested in regarding these horses. And, I don't have to send in dues every year either.. : ) The registry won't fall without my dues, as registry fees generate the bulk of funding for the organization, not dues. -- Renee Martin in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
- Original Message - From: "prairiefemme2006" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:16 PM Subject: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use > --- "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I think a lot of people do not get the Quarterly. >> >> Is this the type of bit used (attached)? >> >> (if you can't see the picture, go here) >> http://iceryder.net/icelandicbit.html >> > > I'm surprised you say a lot of people don't belong to the U.S. > Icelandic Horse Congress. They publish the Icelandic Horse Congress > Quarterly Magazine as a benefit of membership, they maintain the U.S. > Icelandic Registry, and they are the only U.S. Association allowed to > represent Icelandics in the International Association. Wouldn't most > folks who own a registered Icelandic in the U.S. want to belong to > this? Or Judy, were you thinking mostly of non-U.S. > owners/enthusiasts who belong to this group? > > Anyway, yes the picture you attached is the bit I see in the photos. > Yikes, I was giving the Icelanders the benefit of the doubt since I > didnt' know what the bit was. I was thinking maybe the shank was a > decorative piece, sort of like an elongated snap, that didn't > influence the bit action, but no! The Icelander trainer at the place > I bought my horse used only french link snaffles on all the Iceys. I > use one too but also have a Dr. Cook's bitless crossover bridle. > Mostly I find she responds to my weight shifts and mental intent and > I only need the reins when she gets excited about something. > > My local riding friends, who own Tennessee Walkers, Arabs and Quarter > Horses all freak out at the idea of a bitless bridle and like > the "security" of a "stronger" bit. One uses a gag bit (heaven help > us), one a double twisted wire snaffle, another a long shank western > bit. A good friend, who is actually a good and gentle rider, > wouldn't ride my Fjord with the eggbutt snaffle bit I use on her, > insisting on using her own long-shanked bit "for the security". All > we did is walk and jog and she barely touched the bit so it didn't > matter, but I wish I had insisted on my own bridle. > > I did notice that most places I went to look at Iceys (all but one > were non-Icelandic trainers) used the drop noseband. I bought one > for that reason and always keep it loose but often wondered why I > thought it necessary at all and plan to stop using it altogether. > > Thanks for answering my question. > > > > > IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses > > "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, > contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and > unrealistic." > > "All truth passes through three stages. > First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer > > > [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com > [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com > [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo > [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date: 3/23/2008 > 6:50 PM > >
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use - back around to saddle fit
I did see it and had a good laugh over Janice's post because Karen's take is quite accurate. "Nada". I don't want to over-promote the videos, but I was expecting much more of a reaction. A few people commented on Hestakaup.com and that's it. It certainly did not trigger any discussion and there are a number of issues that have nothing to do with biomechanics or saddles that also could have been addressed. Stan, I sure hope you noticed that we discussed it here, even though some of the stuff we've discussed before. If you leave it up, I'm sure we'll reference it again, as new members come on board, and more topics evolve. I was very interested in much of what your guy said. He seems very knowledgeable, and quite credible, and I know he must have felt uncomfortable saying some of the things he said. I'm not sure I agree with everything he said, but much of what he said is at least worthy of deep consideration. It's a good starting point for discussions, that's for sure. This series of videos was indeed departure from most of my previous videos in that it was overtly instructional rather than the cultural documentaries that I have been presenting. Maybe it was less entertaining... You know, you may have just nailed part of the differences in this list and some others. Entertainment is certainly a good thing - and we have Janice to take care of that here - but the needs of the horses are often rather boring to the general public. I guess I enjoy good entertainment as much as anyone, but my heart belongs to my horses, and I have to take care of them first. And, for what it's worth, I found this one very entertaining - but we all know that I'm a geek. :) BTW, Stan, do you have a clue what you're going to do next re: saddles for your horses? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use - back around to saddle fit
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> Judy has been trying to draw people's attention to things like bad > >>> saddlefit forever and then Stan comes along and says something and its > >>> oh my GOSH a rocket scientist!! Who KNEW. but I am SO glad, because > >>> maybe they will listen to him. > > > I have to admit, Janice, that was my first impression too, but now I'm SO > glad that Stan posted those videos. It was a departure from what he'd been > doing with his videos and I appreciate the effort he's putting into that > site. I saw him post a link to them on a more traditional list almost a > week ago I think, and I'm very disappointed - not one response, good, bad or > indifferent over there. Nada. Yet, this list, where we regularly discuss > saddle fit etc., in the past, we saw them, and discussed them. Thanks > Stan - I assume you'll see this. I did see it and had a good laugh over Janice's post because Karen's take is quite accurate. "Nada". I don't want to over-promote the videos, but I was expecting much more of a reaction. A few people commented on Hestakaup.com and that's it. It certainly did not trigger any discussion and there are a number of issues that have nothing to do with biomechanics or saddles that also could have been addressed. This series of videos was indeed departure from most of my previous videos in that it was overtly instructional rather than the cultural documentaries that I have been presenting. Maybe it was less entertaining... Stan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use - back around to saddle fit
>>> Judy has been trying to draw people's attention to things like bad >>> saddlefit forever and then Stan comes along and says something and its >>> oh my GOSH a rocket scientist!! Who KNEW. but I am SO glad, because >>> maybe they will listen to him. I have to admit, Janice, that was my first impression too, but now I'm SO glad that Stan posted those videos. It was a departure from what he'd been doing with his videos and I appreciate the effort he's putting into that site. I saw him post a link to them on a more traditional list almost a week ago I think, and I'm very disappointed - not one response, good, bad or indifferent over there. Nada. Yet, this list, where we regularly discuss saddle fit etc., in the past, we saw them, and discussed them. Thanks Stan - I assume you'll see this. And many thanks to Judy, and Robyn and my brilliant local saddle-fitter who opened her mind to alternative saddles before it was trendy and who first recommended a saddle brand for Sina that she couldn't sell when she easily could have sold me one that didn't fit as well, and folks like Rikki Schultz for her saddle-fit section in her Icelandic's book, Dana Johnsen of Nickers Saddlery, Dave Genadek of About The Horse, and Carol Brett of Balance Saddles, and to all the others who were into this saddle fit fight long before I joined in...and welcome, Stan. Thanks for introducing us to your saddle fitter. The more the merrier when it comes to looking after our horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
> Same here Karen -- I joined last year when I registered Dancer, but > after learning more I did not renew. I can't see lending my > financial support to a group that promotes a style of riding that, > IMHO, is injurious to the horse. Wish we had the choice of an > alternative group like FOSH is to the TWHBEA. I do too.A group that more reflects the US/Can mentality about horsemanship, natural horsemanship. You know the average horse owner today, 85-88% according to recent demographic data, are middle aged women. Baby boomer women. Think about it, thats the largest group of horseowners in the US. Its not the old cowboy way anymore or the olympic eventing team euro dressage way. Its women who like to ride in beautiful settings and stop and smell the roses and treat horses with love and kindness. These are the same women who as early twenty year olds told Dr. Spock to shove it up his bahonkas, they didnt believe the old spare the rod spoil the child BS and then we entered a new era of child rearing. With the baby boomers marching along thru time as the median population we have seen the launch of PETA, the outcry against biglick showing of walking horses, the boom in natural horsemanship, horse whispering, tons of published material on how best to figure out your horse and meet its needs. I think its time to break off, really. I feel I made an effort to join and work toward change from the inside but its too hard to fight the people who are in it for the money and try to run you off all the time if you are into natural horsemanship. Judy has been trying to draw people's attention to things like bad saddlefit forever and then Stan comes along and says something and its oh my GOSH a rocket scientist!! Who KNEW. but I am SO glad, because maybe they will listen to him. They sure wont listen to me, or most people who post regularly to this list abut natural horsemanship and icelandic horses. People say, its not that you say it, its HOW you say it, but you can only say it so many times nicely when people are calling you names and saying horrible things and quoting you out of context from one list to another til you finally just throw up your hands and realize the USIHC is composed largely of europeans or americans in love with the european style of horsemanship that is so outdated and just doesnt serve any useful purpose anymore except to control horses out of fear and intimidation. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
On Mar 24, 2008, at 12:57 PM, Karen Thomas wrote: >>> I'm surprised you say a lot of people don't belong to the U.S. >>> Icelandic >>> Horse Congress. I would guess that I'm typical of a lot of Icelandic owners. I joined for a year, saw no benefit from my membership, and wasn't interested at all in the topics in the magazine, and I don't support the same things that the organization supports. Same here Karen -- I joined last year when I registered Dancer, but after learning more I did not renew. I can't see lending my financial support to a group that promotes a style of riding that, IMHO, is injurious to the horse. Wish we had the choice of an alternative group like FOSH is to the TWHBEA. Kat
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
>>> I'm surprised you say a lot of people don't belong to the U.S. Icelandic >>> Horse Congress. They publish the Icelandic Horse Congress Quarterly >>> Magazine as a benefit of membership, they maintain the U.S. Icelandic >>> Registry, and they are the only U.S. Association allowed to represent >>> Icelandics in the International Association. Wouldn't most folks who >>> own a registered Icelandic in the U.S. want to belong to this? I would guess that I'm typical of a lot of Icelandic owners. I joined for a year, saw no benefit from my membership, and wasn't interested at all in the topics in the magazine, and I don't support the same things that the organization supports. I saw no need to renew. Remember, few breeds have international organizations, only national one for different countries, so being the only US organization to belong to the international organization doesn't add any appeal to me. You can register your horse without being a member - it's a for-fee service. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re: Bits Icelanders Use
--- "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think a lot of people do not get the Quarterly. > > Is this the type of bit used (attached)? > > (if you can't see the picture, go here) > http://iceryder.net/icelandicbit.html > I'm surprised you say a lot of people don't belong to the U.S. Icelandic Horse Congress. They publish the Icelandic Horse Congress Quarterly Magazine as a benefit of membership, they maintain the U.S. Icelandic Registry, and they are the only U.S. Association allowed to represent Icelandics in the International Association. Wouldn't most folks who own a registered Icelandic in the U.S. want to belong to this? Or Judy, were you thinking mostly of non-U.S. owners/enthusiasts who belong to this group? Anyway, yes the picture you attached is the bit I see in the photos. Yikes, I was giving the Icelanders the benefit of the doubt since I didnt' know what the bit was. I was thinking maybe the shank was a decorative piece, sort of like an elongated snap, that didn't influence the bit action, but no! The Icelander trainer at the place I bought my horse used only french link snaffles on all the Iceys. I use one too but also have a Dr. Cook's bitless crossover bridle. Mostly I find she responds to my weight shifts and mental intent and I only need the reins when she gets excited about something. My local riding friends, who own Tennessee Walkers, Arabs and Quarter Horses all freak out at the idea of a bitless bridle and like the "security" of a "stronger" bit. One uses a gag bit (heaven help us), one a double twisted wire snaffle, another a long shank western bit. A good friend, who is actually a good and gentle rider, wouldn't ride my Fjord with the eggbutt snaffle bit I use on her, insisting on using her own long-shanked bit "for the security". All we did is walk and jog and she barely touched the bit so it didn't matter, but I wish I had insisted on my own bridle. I did notice that most places I went to look at Iceys (all but one were non-Icelandic trainers) used the drop noseband. I bought one for that reason and always keep it loose but often wondered why I thought it necessary at all and plan to stop using it altogether. Thanks for answering my question.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 12:24:46PM -, dawn_atherton wrote: > ---Thanks Vicka! The black/turquoise is such a pretty > combination - it was fun to make them. And you just look GREAT in > them! thanks for making them! they are really the perfect thing for hot days where i am both riding and teaching -- plenty cool for walking around with my students, and very grippy for riding. and the colors are indeed great fun :) do you have pictures up with your new styles, or descriptions anywhere? i confess i still like the full-seat design -- yours are my first pair and i love the stable feeling, esp. on steep downhills on the trails. i liked the sensation, though i admit more for the people's sake than stjarni's -- his hrimnir fits him very well, and he goes quite the same in that, the sensation, or bareback. but the hrimnir seat is too big for me, and my littlest student likes the flatter seat on the sensation, and i like that it is so easy to adjust to everybody's best. i am planning to keep the hrimnir -- it was recommended that alternating the sensation, the hrimnir, and bareback would be best for stjarni, and i do have a couple students that my treed saddle fits quite well. but i've already ordered my sensation, incl. a skito pad to match my fancy riding pants :) cheers, --vicka, northern ma
[IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ps. credit where it's due: lovely riding pants by dawn_a (for whom i put up that page originally), sensation dressage saddle lent by kaaren jordan, photos taken by my student frances. ---Thanks Vicka! The black/turquoise is such a pretty combination - it was fun to make them. And you just look GREAT in them! I just tested out my pair of "plain janes", with no knee patch. They are absolutely ideal for hot, hot days. I've got a few new styles now too, including the "plain janes", and with the knee patch extending up to the crotch - 3/4 Seat. They don't cover the butt, but give inner leg grippiness all the way up to the crotch. The Sensation looks really good on Stjarni. I've found that it really frees up our horses shoulders and allows them to move out without being pinched. One thing I found we needed to do was to take out the velcro knee blocks. They put just a little more pressure on the horse than I though was correct. But I have always found knee blocks to get in the way anyway, so it didn't really affect me. Dawn B.S. - northern Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:05:28AM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > What ever you find would be great. Just something you wouldn't be > teaching your students. i sent a url to a picture of me -- taken by a student of mine, embarrassingly enough, but i hope she doesn't learn from it :) but i figure i am entitled to offer pictures of myself without anyone feeling weird about my naming individuals therein :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 06:56:50AM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > On 19/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can you give me some examples of some bad equitation? Bad tack, etc.? certainly. in order to leave others completely out of it, here is a picture of horrendous equitation by yours truly: http://www.andor.org/lj/ridingpants/ bottom picture. what i see as being wron ghere: . my left hand is up near the level of stjarni's ears, forcing him to raise his head, and my rein contact is way too tight. we are in a corner turning left. i should imho have a *low* hand and be opening my rein to give him space to move into; this is just the opposite. it's my pony being good that we didn't crash into the equipment you see behind us. . my right hand is a good six inches over his neck, and "piano-handed" (breaking the line of contact to the bit) as well. i can't see it but i'll bet that rein is too tight too. . my seat is glued down to the saddle (for which i thank, most sincerely, dawn_a who made those pants -- they permitted me to do this, although i'm sure they think it's a terrible idea too :) and i am bracing my behind against the back of the saddle. this has caused me to be quite a ways behind my horse's center of balance. he has a long back but on a smaller horse i would be pressing my weight over the loin. . as a result my feet are way far forwards, kicking my horse in the shoulder and making it even more unpleasant for him to contemplate actually turning through that corner. my stirrup has also slid back on my foot, indicating (a) that i am not properly grounded and keeping my weight underside (i don't know if that's an equitation term really, i am using it from aikido, but i'm sure you can see it's wrong) and (b) setting me up to have my foot dragged if i should fall off. . my shoulders are tipped even further back, putting me even further out of a balanced position. . my pony appears to be interpreting all of the above, in his typical hopeful manner, as "perhaps she wants a flying pace?" and i think you can see the transition from his asymmetrical canter to his laterally symmetrical pace in that tangle of feet. i imagine he is generalizing from my (hopefully less spastic) settling of my butt and opening of my chest when i ask for a trot->tolt transition. this is not his fault, of course, but i haven't the least idea how to ride the flying pace, and am setting myself up for an uncomfortable and awkward next few moments despite my pony's best efforts at obedience. feel free to add to my criticisms here. i see only one thing wrong with my tack, which is that i am using a full-cheek bit without a safety strap, but i confess that is on purpose, since stjarni seems to prefer the angle at which the bit rests in his mouth (which is changed by the strap) that way, so i have left it free and just try to be careful near it. i was trialing that saddle; it may or may not be correctly placed. --vicka ps. credit where it's due: lovely riding pants by dawn_a (for whom i put up that page originally), sensation dressage saddle lent by kaaren jordan, photos taken by my student frances.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:37:06AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > Anyone can put anything they want on their > own website - what they actually DO is much more important to me. i rode with gudmar for a weekend. i have remembered and said what he did. i have not seen him at shows, but i don't think that "what he does" at his own farm is bad horsemanship, in my firsthand experience. and no, i don't think that the "public event" is conducive to "best behavior". particularly not in "the show world". two barns ago, i took lessons with a lot of people who showed, and while i basically enjoyed my own few showing/eventing experiences, i confess i was not used to seeing such bad behavior from my fellow students and their families, let alone our instructors. i don't think competition makes most folks act their best. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
>>> Good horse people would not do this in public or any other place. A true horseperson cares about the horse at all times, they are more concerned about their relationship with the horse, than a competition, or what other *people* will think of them. It's really, really hard for me to believe that people would ride like this in public, then save the good horsemanship for private time at home. Exactly, Kim. If anything, I'd think MOST clinicians would be on their "best behavior" at a public event where they expect to be photographed. I've certainly had moments (public and private) where I've not kept my cool as much as I probably should have, and I'm certainly not a great rider, but I TRY to be the same horse-person everywhere I am. Ultimately, though, I only answer to my horses, and to myself. I can't hide from either myself or from them. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:13:15AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > > could you perhaps look at some of those horses/riders in other contexts? > > that is why i included gudmar's site; that way you could see an > > icelander presenting horses and riding according to his own criteria, > > rather than to "the show world"'s. > > > > --vicka > > > > > and then phoros were posted showing otherwise which you ignored. janice, those were pictures at shows, not at home. my point is still that these are different contexts and should be taken as such. which kind of horsemanship do you think a person is promoting -- one that they'll do for a few minutes to make a buck, or one that they devote their own business to? (and no, i don't know gudmar nearly well enough to say what his priorities are wrt showing, only that (a) what he showed me was quite gentle horsemanship, and (b) that he never advertises horses as "suitable" for more than "light competition".) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 11:12:12AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > sigh. I can tell you soring of walking horses is rampant nationwide > and then show you a pic of my safe sane healthy happy walking horses > gaiting barefoot on a loose rein and voila! no problem exists! oh > well, thank God thats cleared up we can move on now to lala land... i *do* think the problem exists. but i think it exists in "the show world", not in "icelandics" or "walking horses", let alone in "iceland and icelanders" or "america and americans". and i think the way to fix it is perhaps to involve prevention-of-cruelty-to-animals organizations (who have a pretty good track record with some of these things, such as cockfighting, another "sport" laden with cruelty), not to dump on a whole nation of people and horses. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 6/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:21:41AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > > > > could you perhaps look at some of those horses/riders in other contexts? > that is why i included gudmar's site; that way you could see an > icelander presenting horses and riding according to his own criteria, > rather than to "the show world"'s. > > --vicka > and then phoros were posted showing otherwise which you ignored. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
sigh. I can tell you soring of walking horses is rampant nationwide and then show you a pic of my safe sane healthy happy walking horses gaiting barefoot on a loose rein and voila! no problem exists! oh well, thank God thats cleared up we can move on now to lala land... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage - a new question
Hi Karen, >Riders come in all shapes, sizes, and personal preferences. Find a group >that will work with you. Life's too short not to enjoy your horses, and >enjoy them safely. Good suggestions, especially about riding in groups that will meet your needs and you feel comfortable. When we ride in groups we always check with the group before increasing speed and break up the group - leaving at different times, rather than trying to hold horses back (as not all horses are comfortable with this depending on the rider). We use the leap frog technique with young horses as well to get them used to being in different positions = leader, follower, in the middle. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
Hi Kim >Does anyone think slapping a nervous horse in >the face with the reins is a good idea? I was told "he needed it", I >must have had a very shocked look on my face. It's just unacceptable. Sounds like another case of 'when knowledge ends violence begins' Xenophen Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
[IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 07:28:10AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > > So when I say there are tight nosebands and you say there > > are not and people show pictures where there are, what do we learn > > from that... > > you're leaving out a step, in which i show pictures where there aren't. I could post pictures where I am not using tight contact or a tight noseband on an Icelandic, but it doesn't mean that this isn't happening. The problem is with the people who are doing it. > > and i think what we (should) learn is that there are contexts that > support bad practices and contexts that support better ones. i > personally think that how a person treats horses "at home" every day is > more important than what gets seen (and endlessly photographed) in "the > show world", and makes a larger impact on the lives of horses and > horsemanship in general. your interpretive mileage may vary. > Good horse people would not do this in public or any other place. A true horseperson cares about the horse at all times, they are more concerned about their relationship with the horse, than a competition, or what other *people* will think of them. It's really, really hard for me to believe that people would ride like this in public, then save the good horsemanship for private time at home. I've seen some people in action, it is even worse than what we are seeing in the photos. Does anyone think slapping a nervous horse in the face with the reins is a good idea? I was told "he needed it", I must have had a very shocked look on my face. It's just unacceptable. Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
could you perhaps look at some of those horses/riders in other
contexts? that is why i included gudmar's site; that way you could see an
icelander presenting horses and riding according to his own criteria, rather
than to "the show world"'s.
That tells me that we are not even close to being on the same page, Vicka.
I don't buy it at all when a clinician says one thing in one context and
does another thing in a different situation - that's a HUGE red flag to me;
one I have trouble getting past. Anyone can put anything they want on their
own website - what they actually DO is much more important to me. And yes,
even the best trainers, clinicians and riders can, and do, have "bad moments
in time"...but when I see more "bad moments" than good, from pictures taken
at a public event where one would THINK the trainer would be on his best
behavior, I worry. I worry a lot. It's simply not enough to find a few
good examples on the clinicians own website.
FWIW, I hadn't bothered to even go through all of those photo links until
you insisted it's not happening. Frankly, I was surprised to see what I saw.
I really thought (hoped?) maybe Gudmar might be a little better than what I
see in these recent pictures, so I'm pretty disappointed in him. Remember,
I didn't take these pictures, nor did I hand-select the ones posted to these
websites. These are simply pictures that some of the show-crowd decided to
post themselves. Judging from the responses ("pretty pictures", "nice
horses", etc.) I don't think too many people in that crowd are seeing what I
see. That's just sad.
Karen Thomas, NC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage - a new question
But my horse, Gormur, is very strong and at the end of a 2 hour ride, my hands are developing blisters from trying to hold him back, especially on the way home when he just wants to get faster and faster. I also have a problem when going out with my group of friends riding. Several of them like to fast canter/gallop and a few hang back, doing a slow canter. Gormur and I can tolt or canter with the slow group but Gormur wll pass each horse if I let him to catch up with the ones in front, pulling almost until I can not hold him back. (this is where the blisters come from!) Many times I feel I almost cannot hold him back. You may not want to hear what I have to say, but I don't think the problem is the bit - not at all. I think the problem is the situation you're riding in, and possibly the people you're riding with. If he's nervous and antsy, insecure in any way, then he needs to learn to relax. And you may be feeding each other's insecurities - that certainly happens a lot. That has nothing to do with a bit. If I had that situation (and I don't any more, at least no often, because I'm picky who I ride with) I'd only ride with a person or two for a while who'd do entire rides at a leisurely WALK. There are lots of exercises you can do to reassure him he's not going to get left behind, and that it won't kill him if he does. You can try hand-walking him alone on the trails, so it's just the two of you. You can ride him out or in the ring with a buddy at a walk. You can go out on the trails with a friend who will play leapfrog with you, and do other exercises - wasn't it Laree who posted of such a ride recently on Doppa? That's great stuff. And didn't Judy just post a link about getting a horse to stop (and go) from your body language? The Parelli program has some good exercises - as do other programs. Until you've mastered these things at a walk, maybe even staying in the ring, I think it's quite dangerous to be riding on the trail on a horse you can't control. Please don't get yourself hurt! There are probably plenty of folks in your area that are also in your situation - either green riders, or more experienced riders who are working with green horses. I was surprised when I decided to be more vocal about MY needs and my horses' needs, how many folks I found willing to ride the way I needed to. Even when I'm riding a more experienced horse, I try to offer to be the "seasoned horse/rider" for less experienced people/horses all along - and I will accept the same favor from them. Riders come in all shapes, sizes, and personal preferences. Find a group that will work with you. Life's too short not to enjoy your horses, and enjoy them safely. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage - a new question
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:34:47AM -0400, Gale Dunn wrote: > I have been following this thread on bits and leverage and benn > disappointed that no firm recomendations have been made. > [...] > Any advise would be helpful. at my barn we have a saying: "bits don't stop horses. horses stop horses. or not." so my suggestion is not that you change your bit, but that you do a lot of schooling on "walk on" and "whoa" and "easy" (slow down within a gait without breaking). start in hand, on foot, with a lead line, until all these things are boring and easy. then go to the saddle, in a ring, wearing a bit, but still relying primarily on voice commands. start at a walk. once that is boring and easy, try other gaits. then do the same thing out of the ring. then out of the ring with one other slow, reliable horse. build it up. and good luck. a lot of horses just like to run together, and to be in front; i think this is part of the herd instinct. but i also think the way to control it is through training your horse to listen to your gentle aids, not to make your aids stronger either by giving yourself blisters or using a harsher bit. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 07:28:10AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > So when I say there are tight nosebands and you say there > are not and people show pictures where there are, what do we learn > from that... you're leaving out a step, in which i show pictures where there aren't. and i think what we (should) learn is that there are contexts that support bad practices and contexts that support better ones. i personally think that how a person treats horses "at home" every day is more important than what gets seen (and endlessly photographed) in "the show world", and makes a larger impact on the lives of horses and horsemanship in general. your interpretive mileage may vary. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage - a new question
Hi Gale >Is it possibly the bit is too strong for him and hurt him. Is there >another bit I could purchase that would be a step up from the old one I >used (loose ring french link snaffle) and not a severe as the Monte >Forman bit. I would say that yes too strong a bit - especially one with leverage could cause the behaviour - it may be causing him to tighten his neck and back. In the past we have used English Tom Thumb pelhams - called a Tom Thumb because the shank is not longer than a thumb. They generally have a mullen mouthpiece (a slight curve to fit the mouth shape with no joints). Personally I only like to use shanked bits with two sets of reins. The top rein has no leverage and gives you a way to balance, turn and steady the horse and the bottom rein give you a bit of leverage which affects the horse's poll and acts as a brake. I have found that just using the bottom rein, or a converter, gives you less choices. Riding with two sets of reins is not so difficult and just takes a bit of practice. Over the years I have found that if you have a very forward horse the Pelham means you will generally ride with a looser rein - and the horse is more relaxed because the two main purposes of the snaffle was originally to raise the horse's head and give lateral flexion. Uto Burger's (was a German veterinarian and event rider) book "The Way To Perfect Horsemanship" describes how he liked to start horses in a short shanked Pelham with no noseband so he could give the horse clearer information and also allow the horse freedom of his mouth to show what the rider's hands were doing. I used to 3-Day Event and found that the Tom Thumb (remember not the western Tom Thumb which has a broken mouthpiece and one I don't care for) provided more relaxed horses that I could ride much lighter. Mylar also makes a Pelham with the rotating mouthpiece as in the comfort mouthpiece - the shanks are slightly longer that the Tom Thumb but when ridden with two reins you have choice. I probably have one I could send you to try if you don't know someone with a Tom Thumb and would like to try one. Hope this helps you. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 20/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > could you perhaps look at some of those horses/riders in other contexts? > that is why i included gudmar's site; that way you could see an > icelander presenting horses and riding according to his own criteria, > rather than to "the show world"'s. > > --vicka What ever you find would be great. Just something you wouldn't be teaching your students. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 09:21:41AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > >>> Can you give me some examples of some bad equitation? Bad tack, etc.? > >>> I'm curious to know how much on (or off ;) the same page we areand > then we can start a discussion from that framework. That's a good point, Wanda. I feel a little bad about sending the link to the evaluation picture, but sometimes we're all in such different frameworks of reference that it's almost futile to continue without something specific to go on. There were some really pretty horses in those evaluation pictures. I'd bet that some of them (many? Who knows?) could gait quite nicely if given some time to mature and a loose rein. It just saddens me to see so many pictures of horses being ridden harshly, that I simply can't pretend it's not happening, in the name of being polite. could you perhaps look at some of those horses/riders in other contexts? that is why i included gudmar's site; that way you could see an icelander presenting horses and riding according to his own criteria, rather than to "the show world"'s. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> Can you give me some examples of some bad equitation? Bad tack, etc.? > > I'm curious to know how much on (or off ;) the same page we areand > then we can start a discussion from that framework. > > Wanda > can we emabark on that discussion under a new thread name?? This one has gotten so long it takes forever to open on my home dial up Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage - a new question
I have been following this thread on bits and leverage and benn disappointed that no firm recomendations have been made. I curently use a loose ring french snaffle. But my horse, Gormur, is very strong and at the end of a 2 hour ride, my hands are developing blisters from trying to hold him back, especially on the way home when he just wants to get faster and faster. I also have a problem when going out with my group of friends riding. Several of them like to fast canter/gallop and a few hang back, doing a slow canter. Gormur and I can tolt or canter with the slow group but Gormur wll pass each horse if I let him to catch up with the ones in front, pulling almost until I can not hold him back. (this is where the blisters come from!) Many times I feel I almost cannot hold him back. I have been advised by the barn manager to get a stronger bit. My barn is geared to western riding and so they recommended a western bit, a Monte Foreman bit which I have been using. It does seem to give me extra control but last time I rode, he decided he wanted to run up to another horse that was a ways away and when I reined him in he started bucking and crow hopping and spinning, something he has never done before in the three years I have owned him.(although he has bolted on me once a long time ago) It scared me and I dismounted and walked him back to the farm. Is it possibly the bit is too strong for him and hurt him. Is there another bit I could purchase that would be a step up from the old one I used (loose ring french link snaffle) and not a severe as the Monte Forman bit. Any advise would be helpful. Gale in NJ
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
sometimes people are photographed in "good moments in time" and "bad moments in time". Sometimes people make terrible mistakes with horses and grow and correct it and move on to be better horse people. Yes, it isnt fair to post pictures of someone, a professional, someone some people even consider the spokesman of the breed so to speak in bad moments of time and criticise. But picking him apart wasnt the point. The point was that we, all of us, should be very conscientious and not make these mistakes and harm our horses even accidentally, or if we are, to change as soon as we realize it. So when I say there are tight nosebands and you say there are not and people show pictures where there are, what do we learn from that... we learn it does exist and we need to be aware and in whatever way we can, do what we can to try and educate and spread the word and help change things. Other wise they morph into something even uglier and over time become "acceptable" because it is so common. Like in other breeds. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
>>> Can you give me some examples of some bad equitation? Bad tack, etc.? I'm >>> curious to know how much on (or off ;) the same page we areand then we can start a discussion from that framework. That's a good point, Wanda. I feel a little bad about sending the link to the evaluation picture, but sometimes we're all in such different frameworks of reference that it's almost futile to continue without something specific to go on. There were some really pretty horses in those evaluation pictures. I'd bet that some of them (many? Who knows?) could gait quite nicely if given some time to mature and a loose rein. It just saddens me to see so many pictures of horses being ridden harshly, that I simply can't pretend it's not happening, in the name of being polite. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 19/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> anyway. i feel a bit like a jerk for bringing individual names into > this; i just like to make it crystal-clear how i came to my thinking. Okay, point taken. Leave Gudmar completely out of this. I didn't go to the webiste you gave me specifically because of that. Can you give me some examples of some bad equitation? Bad tack, etc.? I'm curious to know how much on (or off ;) the same page we areand then we can start a discussion from that framework. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 08:06:51PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > On 19/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > thank you for the pointers. how do you reconcile the ones you chose > > with, say, the picture i had? do you think that "icelandic riding" is > > all one position, all one set of equipment, all one goal...? > > > > --vicka > > Where do you see the difference Vicka? Do you have a larger picture? i don't; i took that off stjarni's pre-sale webpage. chubby, wasn't he? but the main thing i notice is that rather than sitting anywhere near stjarni's croup, the rider is balanced shortly behind the shoulders. i just got back from riding stjarni myself (bareback; i have spent too much time yakking on this list to tack up :) and found that (i didn't get pictures, this is by feel) it's about where i felt his "sweet spot" to be (at least at walk and slow and fast tolts, both with much circling and figure 8's) when i was riding that way. anyway, to get a larger variety of pictures, i went to gudmar's website (which is apparently now http://www.gudmar.com). at the top right of the pic on the site is a photo of a man (i presume gudmar) riding a horse at what i would call a very fast tolt, with a slight visible hang in the reins, what looks to me like a loose-ring snaffle, and low hands. his seat is not far back, though his feet are ahead of his hips, and his head perhaps perched a bit too far forwards for what i would consider "perfect riding position" as we teach it to kids. but he looks very quiet and stable, and the horse appears comfortable and quick. the horse *is* wearing bell boots on its front feet, but they appear to be plain rubber ones; i would not presume to say they were weighted (the horse is not demonstrating a ton of lift, though she does show considerable *reach*) but may be merely protective. looking at the "about us" page, i see gudmar holding a horse by a nosebandless bridle (presumably he uses these, and that's how he knew stjarni didn't need a noseband), & a picture that makes me personally unhappy (he and his little son nokkvi are on without helmets; i daresay most folks would consider this shot "cute"). in the "standing at stud" section there's a picture of him on throstur bareback, nicely aligned ime and sitting in what i'd consider a "sweet spot" just leaving room for the shoulders. in a section on a four-year-old stallion called veigar there is a pic of him under saddle, strongly implying that the horses aren't ignored til the age of five. anyway. i feel a bit like a jerk for bringing individual names into this; i just like to make it crystal-clear how i came to my thinking. i do think it more appropriate to look at someone's own website and see how they choose to represent themselves than to look at photos lifted from "the show world", where as we've discussed different (and generally less humane or in keeping with the spirit i believe we share on this list) rules and standards and traditions apply. so i'm not going to do a shot-by-shot analysis of this poor fellow's website, but i do invite y'all to take a look at what he chooses to show of himself and his horses and his riders. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 19/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > thank you for the pointers. how do you reconcile the ones you chose > with, say, the picture i had? do you think that "icelandic riding" is > all one position, all one set of equipment, all one goal...? > > --vicka Where do you see the difference Vicka? Do you have a larger picture? Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 07:00:56PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > i think for the sake of really trying to help the horses and not point > fingers and not take up for people just cause we admire them etc, lets > just take Gudmar's name out of it and just look at these pictures, at > the riders, the nosebands etc. I mean, is there room for improvement or > not... Janice > > Good idea, Janice. I shouldn't have taken Vicka's question literally. There > are a couple of hundred pictures in the link I sent, and he's not the only > rider in the set. I don't even know who a couple of the riders are. Just > look at the pictures... thank you for the pointers. how do you reconcile the ones you chose with, say, the picture i had? do you think that "icelandic riding" is all one position, all one set of equipment, all one goal...? --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
i think for the sake of really trying to help the horses and not point fingers and not take up for people just cause we admire them etc, lets just take Gudmar's name out of it and just look at these pictures, at the riders, the nosebands etc. I mean, is there room for improvement or not... Janice Good idea, Janice. I shouldn't have taken Vicka's question literally. There are a couple of hundred pictures in the link I sent, and he's not the only rider in the set. I don't even know who a couple of the riders are. Just look at the pictures... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
i think for the sake of really trying to help the horses and not point fingers and not take up for people just cause we admire them etc, lets just take Gudmar's name out of it and just look at these pictures, at the riders, the nosebands etc. I mean, is there room for improvement or not... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
So we need to be cautious we don't start for instance, riding sitting back on the horse's tail dock in an effort to be as much like Gudmar as possible! >> erm. i have never seen gudmar do this. do you have a picture Here are some recent ones. These were taken at the 2007 evaluations that were held a couple of weeks ago, and were posted on an Icelandic list. I don't know these individual horses, but generally, horses are evaluated when they are fairly young, with ages 4-6 is pretty common. I don't think there is an upper limit on ages though. I just know I wouldn't want any of my just-started horses ridden this way. No, let me rephrase - I wouldn't want ANY of my horses ridden this way, and while I'm no equitation rider, that's not a style I aspire to. Since these were taken at a Breeding Evaluation, sanctioned by international FEIF rules, then I think this is safe to consider "traditional Icelandic type riding." If it's not, I don't know what would be. I believe that's Gudmar in many of these shots - the man in black. If the individual links don't work, just go here and scroll through: http://gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162322321 Noseband digging in, mouth straining: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162319957 Wonder bit, sitting on the cantle: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162301591 http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162301711 Another wonder bit: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#P-7-15 Lovely equitation - yeehaw: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162302246 Horse cranked WAY behind the vertical: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162302822 http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162302896 Open mouth straining against the bit: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162303031 Cantle sitting, with a shanked bit: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162305431 Leaning back, ewed-neck horse: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162330777 Shanked bit, flash noseband, cantle-sitting: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162334560 http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162325829 Above, with straining mouth: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162335053 Cantle sitting: http://www.gatesphotography.smugmug.com/gallery/2994467#162319660 Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
"parelli" people who are fonder of the > "games" than their horses are. your observational mileage may vary. HA! Well said Vicka! Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 11:38:38AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > > well, there's another question. where did you get this idea? how many > > icelanders do you know personally? are any of them "ordinary" horse > > people, or is it all travel brochures, the horse show scene, and this > > list? > > > > > I got it from all the pictures taken at evaluations and Landsmot, from > photos in publications etc. i think you'd get a different perspective from plain old icelanders, and that your sources are basically the products of "the show scene". --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 6/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:22:50AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > > well maybe thats the ticket, we need to define it. What IS > > "traditional Icelandic Training" to you? > > > > To me, it is sort of a bad connotation, meaning horses ridden in tight > > nosebands and weighted boots, too small saddles with the rider sitting > > too far back on the loins causing pain, but mainly, the most negative > > to me, is that it means TOLT NO MATTER WHAT. > > well, there's another question. where did you get this idea? how many > icelanders do you know personally? are any of them "ordinary" horse > people, or is it all travel brochures, the horse show scene, and this > list? > > i should also point out a linguistic factoid i've mentioned here before: > icelandic speakers call all the soft gaits "tolt". not just the saddle > rack. in the video i sent, all of that soft gait was what icelanders in > ordinary speech call "tolting"; lacking youtube and freeze-framing, > their tradition uses the term more broadly than this list does. i have > never heard an icelander tell me "your horse isn't tolting, he's > fox-trotting" or whatever. that's the kind of terminology this list > uses and (in my experience of about half a dozen different icelandic > speakers) icelanders just don't. they say "okay, can you feel his nice > tolt?" and off we go. > > i admit i do the same thing in my teaching. i don't know enough to > identify soft gaits in real time with the precision of say lee zeigler > or many more-experienced list members. so i call the soft gaits "tolt" > and that is as far as i go with my students. i do recommend lee's book > to them, but i don't insist that they get stjarni to saddle rack if > what he's offering them is fox trot. this is also what the icelanders > who have taught me (gudmar and ebba) have done. > > i don't think you're going to see stjarni (born in iceland and trained > by an icelander) on your rehab schedule any time soon. > > > so does anyone have a different definition of traditional icelandic > > training? because how can you say theres no tight nosebands, no bell > > boots, no riding on the loins when you see the absolute pinnacle of > > show training in the US and other countries, and evaluations, shown > > this way, photo after photo until you begin to see it is the absolute > > norm. > > because i've seen other things, like the demo at equine affaire, like > gudmar telling me stjarni didn't need a noseband of any sort at all, Gudmar is sorta like Floyd Caruthers. In walking horse showing way back in the day, like within the very first few shows to crown a WGC twhbea walking horse, Floyd Caruthers rode Strollin Jim. Well, Floyd Caruthers and Strollin Jim were so mind boggling awesome good that they won everything they entered, and everyone wanted to be just like them so they could win too! So they all started sitting and riding just like Floyd Caruthers. And the funny thing is Floyd Caruthers had curvature of the spine and had to sit like a turtle with his head forward, shoulders hunched. So today, decades later, you can go to any biglick walking horse show and each and every entrant, I mean from age 3 on leadline right on up, in each class, every category, EVERY rider is sitting like a turtle, after all these years, head and chin jutted forward, back slumped. it became the STYLE. So we need to be cautious we don't start for instance, riding sitting back on the horse's tail dock in an effort to be as much like Gudmar as possible! Each of us should march to the beat of our own drummer and do whats best for the horse imo. I have seen pics of him on horses where he is in a terrioble position and the horse has on bad tack. He is probably a wonderful rider and a great horse person etc., but I aint gonna start trying to do everything he says and does without question gosh, then my posts would REALLY be stupid! and another thing, even if Gudmar WAS perfect, it is human nature for people to take it a step further and it starts morphing into something bad if people like me dont constantly say something about it. We have to be good stewards of the icelandic horse, each and every one of us have that responsibility! In any way, even some small way that we can! janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 6/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:22:50AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > > well maybe thats the ticket, we need to define it. What IS > > "traditional Icelandic Training" to you? > > > > To me, it is sort of a bad connotation, meaning horses ridden in tight > > nosebands and weighted boots, too small saddles with the rider sitting > > too far back on the loins causing pain, but mainly, the most negative > > to me, is that it means TOLT NO MATTER WHAT. > > well, there's another question. where did you get this idea? how many > icelanders do you know personally? are any of them "ordinary" horse > people, or is it all travel brochures, the horse show scene, and this > list? > I got it from all the pictures taken at evaluations and Landsmot, from photos in publications etc. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 09:22:50AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > well maybe thats the ticket, we need to define it. What IS > "traditional Icelandic Training" to you? > > To me, it is sort of a bad connotation, meaning horses ridden in tight > nosebands and weighted boots, too small saddles with the rider sitting > too far back on the loins causing pain, but mainly, the most negative > to me, is that it means TOLT NO MATTER WHAT. well, there's another question. where did you get this idea? how many icelanders do you know personally? are any of them "ordinary" horse people, or is it all travel brochures, the horse show scene, and this list? i should also point out a linguistic factoid i've mentioned here before: icelandic speakers call all the soft gaits "tolt". not just the saddle rack. in the video i sent, all of that soft gait was what icelanders in ordinary speech call "tolting"; lacking youtube and freeze-framing, their tradition uses the term more broadly than this list does. i have never heard an icelander tell me "your horse isn't tolting, he's fox-trotting" or whatever. that's the kind of terminology this list uses and (in my experience of about half a dozen different icelandic speakers) icelanders just don't. they say "okay, can you feel his nice tolt?" and off we go. i admit i do the same thing in my teaching. i don't know enough to identify soft gaits in real time with the precision of say lee zeigler or many more-experienced list members. so i call the soft gaits "tolt" and that is as far as i go with my students. i do recommend lee's book to them, but i don't insist that they get stjarni to saddle rack if what he's offering them is fox trot. this is also what the icelanders who have taught me (gudmar and ebba) have done. i don't think you're going to see stjarni (born in iceland and trained by an icelander) on your rehab schedule any time soon. > so does anyone have a different definition of traditional icelandic > training? because how can you say theres no tight nosebands, no bell > boots, no riding on the loins when you see the absolute pinnacle of > show training in the US and other countries, and evaluations, shown > this way, photo after photo until you begin to see it is the absolute > norm. because i've seen other things, like the demo at equine affaire, like gudmar telling me stjarni didn't need a noseband of any sort at all, like my several months of weekly-or-thereabouts lessons with ebba. because none of my icelandic or icelandic-trained acquaintances have ever suggested riding on the loins, bell boots, or a tight noseband. not one, not once. i think the difference is that you are talking about the "pinnacle of show training", which i can readily believe is as psychotic as the "pinnacle of show training" in the usa. whereas i am talking about plain old ordinary icelandic horse people, more or less the social equivalent of the plain old ordinary american horse folks who mostly populate this list (not to demean our genuine superstars such as robyn hood, but while i think she could claim to be a "pinnacle of training" as far as i know she doesn't take her horses to lots of shows, or if she does she doesn't mention it here). --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
well maybe thats the ticket, we need to define it. What IS "traditional Icelandic Training" to you? To me, it is sort of a bad connotation, meaning horses ridden in tight nosebands and weighted boots, too small saddles with the rider sitting too far back on the loins causing pain, but mainly, the most negative to me, is that it means TOLT NO MATTER WHAT. and it is a well known fact taht you can get any horse to tolt if you hurt it bad enough. any breed. s you can see I am not a fan of: 1. traditional icelandic training 2. traditional walking horse training 3. traditional racking horse training 4. traditional AQHA western pleasure 5. traditional paso fino 6. Traditional racing thoroughbred training (altho there really isnt such thing as "training" here) and altho there are lots more, these are the only traditional training methods I have ever seen with my own eyeballs or experienced the sadness of rehabbing the results from it. and it isnt circumstantial second hand, it is stuff seen and experienced personally. so does anyone have a different definition of traditional icelandic training? because how can you say theres no tight nosebands, no bell boots, no riding on the loins when you see the absolute pinnacle of show training in the US and other countries, and evaluations, shown this way, photo after photo until you begin to see it is the absolute norm. Just like you would not even be allowed to show if you brought a big lick walking horse into a showring without padded shoes. It was done once and it almost created a riot, there were death threats, bribes, all manner of devious stuff... anyway. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 06:27:41AM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > so what does the word "icelandic" refer to there, if not to icelanders? > > Well, I have Icelandic Horses, so I can talk about "Icelandic" things all > day, and it has NOTHING to do with Icelanders. Most of my horses are > second-generation (or more) North American. sure, but "Icelandic Horse" is a proper name, with strict rules about how it can be used. i don't believe "icelandic training" is similarly well-defined. i teach on an icelandic and i train him; am i therefore an icelandic trainer? i've never even *been* to iceland, and i try to take most of my instructional inspiration from sally swift's books and my martial art (aikido). --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
so what does the word "icelandic" refer to there, if not to icelanders? Well, I have Icelandic Horses, so I can talk about "Icelandic" things all day, and it has NOTHING to do with Icelanders. Most of my horses are second-generation (or more) North American. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/852 - Release Date: 6/17/2007 8:23 AM "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] The video every Icelandic Horse owner should have: http://IceHorses.net/video.html [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses [] IceHorses ToolBar http://iceryder.ourtoolbar.com/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 10:58:06PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > It refers the icelandic-style training and riding methods, which can be used > by anyone who practices that style. what's "icelandic" about it? is "icelandic" over-shoeing different, from say the over-shoeing of twh's in america? > >>> i have a bona fide, fully-accent-endowed icelandic trainer. she learned > >>> to ride as an ordinary kid in iceland. she has NEVER inflicted, or > >>> suggested i inflict, discomfort or pain on my pony. > > Can you send some video of her riding? i can ask, but i've never seen her ride; she's only taught me on my horse. someday she'll have time to ride him, and i'll have a camera, but of course i'll have to ask her permission before sending her video to what i consider a hostile audience. > So many times people, including Icelanders, write to me and say their horses > are not in discomfort from the bit and contact. I ask for a video, and there > it is... they just haven't been able to recognize it for what it is. i just sent a picture my instructor took of stjarni and me, as well as several others of us taken by one of my students. how uncomfortable do you imagine he looks? the commentary i've heard has been generally appreciative. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 10:24:38AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: >> The icelandic training method has lacked the ability and knowledge to >> teach >> a horse what a bit is for (communication), and basically the bit is used >> to >> inflict discomfort or pain with the horse reacting to that, not >> communication. > > so what does the word "icelandic" refer to there, if not to icelanders? > surely it doesn't refer to the breed, since i don't think say stjarni > has ever been exposed to it, despite being an icelandic born and raised > in iceland, and trained by an icelander. so i imagined it must refer to > the ethnicity or perhaps the geography somehow. judy, would you care to > clarify your meaning? It refers the icelandic-style training and riding methods, which can be used by anyone who practices that style. >>> i have a bona fide, fully-accent-endowed icelandic trainer. she learned to >>> ride as an ordinary kid in iceland. she has NEVER inflicted, or suggested >>> i inflict, discomfort or pain on my pony. Can you send some video of her riding? So many times people, including Icelanders, write to me and say their horses are not in discomfort from the bit and contact. I ask for a video, and there it is... they just haven't been able to recognize it for what it is. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:15:38PM -0400, Sarah Bunkley / Richard Smith wrote: > > > . second, i have an opportunity to go to an icelandic show with stjarni > > in july. we would enter two classes, "novice four-gait" and "trot > > race". i am really going back and forth on this (i'm not sure i want to > > spend the time and $ on a show, rather than a trail trial or clinic) -- > > Vicka, > You should definitely go--I'll be there as will others from New > England--we could meet up and laugh a lot. Isn't that the point of showing? > > Sarah in scenic New Hampshire aww, that really tempts me more than anything :) i will talk to my trainer about it. even if i don't bring stjarni and compete, i may very well show up just to cheer folks on and hopefully enjoy the show -- hope to see you there! --vicka, from scenic somerville
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:50:16PM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > maybe we need to just bring attention to things--- i think you are absolutely right. but i also think, icey forum though this is, that pretending that iceys have it the worst is delusional. i have seen worse at any tb racetrack, not to mention any animal shelter or pmu farm. if anything, the iceys i've seen (granted, a selected sample) have had it far better than most in terms of kindly keeping. --vicka (who rode stjarni in a dropped noseband one time)
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 05:43:14PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > > but in any case, my original point still stands, which is that it's not > > fair to crack on "icelanders" because of travel brochures or "show people". > > Vicka, all I'm saying is...look past the nationality... i completely agree, and i try to. when i see a happy horse, i find myself a happy person. and i have stjarni -- bred in iceland, imported and trained by an icelander, and currently ridden under the behind of an american under the instruction of an icelander -- as my exemplar case. i don't approve of uncomfortable-looking horses in uncomfortable-looking tack, no matter what. i have a student at my barn who leases a quarab whom i have gotten from a ported bit with a cricket into a d-ring rubber snaffle, and whom i have just gotten out of a nasty nylon halter that was putting scratch marks on his face. this horse frankly had it worse than any icelandic i had seen in my several years of travel when i was looking for a horse, including a bundle of iceys, and thank ghu that i was able to get this one out of that crap and into something comfier. (actually he's now wearing one of stjarni's halters with some extra holes punched; i'll probably blow my own $20 or so getting him his own nice comfortable safety halter, but i'm fine with that.) > of us is in the learning mode or are new to gaited horses. We need > good examples of good equitation. i agree, but i don't think the problem is limited or even worse with gaited horses or with iceys. it may be sample bias, but around here (i say with reservation) the worst offenders seem to me to be three-gaited western "pleasure" riders, and "parelli" people who are fonder of the "games" than their horses are. your observational mileage may vary. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 07:32:20PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > but in any case, my original point still stands, which is that it's not > fair to crack on "icelanders" because of travel brochures or "show people". > > No one has cracked on Icelanders... i'm sorry, i must have misinterpreted judy's posting to which i responded, but from which i quote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 10:24:38AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > The icelandic training method has lacked the ability and knowledge to teach > a horse what a bit is for (communication), and basically the bit is used to > inflict discomfort or pain with the horse reacting to that, not > communication. so what does the word "icelandic" refer to there, if not to icelanders? surely it doesn't refer to the breed, since i don't think say stjarni has ever been exposed to it, despite being an icelandic born and raised in iceland, and trained by an icelander. so i imagined it must refer to the ethnicity or perhaps the geography somehow. judy, would you care to clarify your meaning? --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:55:09PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > >>> we do? what %? > > Cary and I alone own something like 0.5-1% of the Icelandic's registered in > the USA I believe, which means that Anneliese owns maybe 0.5%... The > living ones that is. There are a lot of dead horses still registered. We > don't really own THAT many horses either - this is just a very small pond > that we're splashing in. Robyn Hood probably owns something on the order of > 5-10% of the Icelandic's registered in Canada. That's just naming three > owners. So yes, we (collectively) own a huge percentage of the North > American Icelandic's. i'm not sure we're over 15% or so. and that is, alas, a minority, and an internally-contentious one at that. (i find i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to sell me a horse for my husband b/c we tend to disagree on-list :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 04:57:26PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > I'm grossed out by lots of things other horse breeds do. > > Because I love my Icelandics so much, I feel compelled to have them > shown in a positive light. i'd like that too. but, well, i'm recently come to icelandics. i've loved arabians and horses in general all my life, and i guess i don't really prize one breed's depiction above all others', focus of list or not, breed that i happen to own or not. i love stjarni with all my heart, but i can't say i love him better than danny-my-childhood-poa --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
>>> I saw a pic posted recently of a gorgeous horse and rider and several made >>> comments about what a beautiful horse and what a great job! but the >>> horse's nose was absolutely bulging beneath the nose band. Its >>> heartbreaking what these wonderfully docile animals will tolerate... I saw them, Janice - I think the pictures were taken at the recent breeding evaluations. There were several comments about how beautiful the horse was, but not one about the dropped noseband digging in. I will NEVER subject any of my horses to evaluations as long as that stuff goes on. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
maybe we need to just bring attention to things--- like when i got my walking horse, others who had walkers would show me and tell me what bit I needed, ten inch shanks. Jaspar was pacey, so let him have long toes and do weighted shoes in front they said. at home ride him in an arena with action chains around his front feet. "set his head" whatever that means. We are not talking about walking horses here. Altho if I say icelandic people say, well others do worse. So ok, walking horse people are maybe the worse. (arguably, i have seen plenty just as bad, paso finos and AQHA western pleasure especially) But some icelandics are treated so badly... Does anyone have the url to those horrible horrible pictures someone took and posted on a website of icey after icey in tight noseband just gaping for air, wild eyed, at Landsmot I think? just dozens of horses. and they werent even looking for that, just happened to notice later. I saw a pic posted recently of a gorgeous horse and rider and several made comments about what a beautiful horse and what a great job! but the horse's nose was absolutely bulging beneath the nose band. its heartbreaking what these wonderfully docile animals will tolerate... I think we have a moral and ethical responsibility to help them whenever we can, by educating newcomers horses do not breathe through their mouths. They physically cannot. When you clamp off the nose you are clamping off their entire air supply so they are just mindblown panicked flying for the finish line out there in a life or death race for a huge reward, release, and a breath. that is sad to me! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> but in any case, my original point still stands, which is that it's not > fair to crack on "icelanders" because of travel brochures or "show people". Vicka, all I'm saying is...look past the nationality...for all I know the people in the pics are aliens. Look at the horse, look at the tack, look at the position of the rider, look at the bit and the noseband, look at the amount of contact One woman sent me a pic of a horse and rider (typical pose we often see, where the noseband is cranked, long shanks, horse horribly ventroflexed, front lift well above 90 degrees)...all of this posted on a website which was supposedly a good example of equitation. Her comment? "What the h*ll is this?" None of us is perfect. Goodness knows I struggle with the simplest of things that others seem to breeze through. However, when the majority of us is in the learning mode or are new to gaited horses. We need good examples of good equitation. Wanda
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
but in any case, my original point still stands, which is that it's not fair to crack on "icelanders" because of travel brochures or "show people". No one has cracked on Icelanders...just the harsh Icelandic show style of riding. If Wanda, who is 100% Icelandic by heritage, can separate the horrible riding often associated with the breed, then I'm not too worried. She seems to see pretty things pretty much as I see them... Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
>>> we do? what %? Cary and I alone own something like 0.5-1% of the Icelandic's registered in the USA I believe, which means that Anneliese owns maybe 0.5%... The living ones that is. There are a lot of dead horses still registered. We don't really own THAT many horses either - this is just a very small pond that we're splashing in. Robyn Hood probably owns something on the order of 5-10% of the Icelandic's registered in Canada. That's just naming three owners. So yes, we (collectively) own a huge percentage of the North American Icelandic's. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 18/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i confess i've never personally seen a "dude ranch" brochure that > impressed me with its depictions of fine horsemanship, and i ve been > grossed out by images i've seen of show saddlebreds and show arabians. > (not to mention being grossed out at actual thoroughbred racetracks.) It wasn't a dude ranch brochure. It was just a general travel guide to Iceland. However, that was just one example I'm grossed out by lots of things other horse breeds do. Because I love my Icelandics so much, I feel compelled to have them shown in a positive light. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> . second, i have an opportunity to go to an icelandic show with stjarni > in july. we would enter two classes, "novice four-gait" and "trot > race". i am really going back and forth on this (i'm not sure i want to > spend the time and $ on a show, rather than a trail trial or clinic) -- Vicka, You should definitely go--I'll be there as will others from New England--we could meet up and laugh a lot. Isn't that the point of showing? Sarah in scenic New Hampshire
[IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> That's crap! Who would put all those hours into training and then at > the last minute change a vital piece of equipment? > > Wanda > I didn't say anything about "last minute." If you are training a horse for months for an evaluation, the change might be made weeks prior. Other people will ride their horses with no bell boots through most of training and add them later. Same concept. ~Nick
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:18:21PM -0400, Karen Thomas wrote: > This isn't an "other breeds" list. It's an Icelandic list. so? they have the same problems we do. we're not unique that way. > This is an Icelandic list. On the other > hand, collectively, we own a noticeable percentage of the Icelandic horses > in the USA and Canada, so maybe we CAN have a little influence in our little > pond. we do? what %? > We have a choice. We can feel smug because our breed shows may be better > than the very worst of some others, or we can strive to reach the highest > levels we can - individually and collectively. Merely being better than the > very worst isn't anything I'd care to brag about. that's missing my point. i never said, we should not strive to better ourselves. my point is, and i repeat: the people who put out advertising brochures and shows have a lot more cash to invest, and therefore a lot more attention from the ignorant, than the vast majority of horse folks participating in any breed, in any country. if you're right about the % that's on this list (a claim i would like to see supported?), then maybe that's more a reflection of what real people are like than what propaganda is like. but in any case, my original point still stands, which is that it's not fair to crack on "icelanders" because of travel brochures or "show people". --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
>>> do you think other breeds have it better? i wouldn't want to be a tb fancier or into saddlebreds these days myself, though we have some very sweet examples of both breeds at our barn. This isn't an "other breeds" list. It's an Icelandic list. >>> i confess i've never personally seen a "dude ranch" brochure that impressed me with its depictions of fine horsemanship I don't know of any dude ranch owners on this list, so there's not a lot we can do about that on this forum. This is an Icelandic list. On the other hand, collectively, we own a noticeable percentage of the Icelandic horses in the USA and Canada, so maybe we CAN have a little influence in our little pond. My personal goal is to reach for the highest form of horsemanship that I can possibly achieve in my lifetime, given what time I have left on earth, and given the fact that I was 32 when I seriously started riding. I believe that's a common goal of this list, and it's why I choose to be active here, not on other lists. We have a choice. We can feel smug because our breed shows may be better than the very worst of some others, or we can strive to reach the highest levels we can - individually and collectively. Merely being better than the very worst isn't anything I'd care to brag about. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/852 - Release Date: 6/17/2007 8:23 AM "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] The video every Icelandic Horse owner should have: http://IceHorses.net/video.html [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses [] IceHorses ToolBar http://iceryder.ourtoolbar.com/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 03:44:08PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > I wish people would be more careful when they are putting the > Icelandic horses out there that they aren't demonstrating bad ...very > bad...riding examples that people from other breeds ridiculeAND > question...and ultimately decide to pass on. i confess i've never personally seen a "dude ranch" brochure that impressed me with its depictions of fine horsemanship, and i ve been grossed out by images i've seen of show saddlebreds and show arabians. (not to mention being grossed out at actual thoroughbred racetracks.) all i'm saying is, we're not alone here. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 18/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > but anyway, that's advertising. i think all "show worlds" have to > advertise, because it's an expensive world to live in. Just the other day a friend sent me a travel brochure she found while she was travelling through Winnipeg. It was the worst example of horses being ewe necked and in a ventroflexed frame. It was a picture obviously from Iceland. I wish people would be more careful when they are putting the Icelandic horses out there that they aren't demonstrating bad ...very bad...riding examples that people from other breeds ridiculeAND question...and ultimately decide to pass on. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:59:20PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > On 18/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > i have two questions: > > > > . first, would you think it fair to judge our nation of riders and horse > > people by *our* "show world"? > > That seems to be the area that people from other breeds have the most > questions about. could be, but maybe that's a matter of where the most photos are? i remember my childhood fascination with arabians being highly disappointed by "arabian horse world" (or whatever that big glossy magazine was called) -- i wanted, you know, a pony to ride (my big dream was to do endurance) and it was all photos of unmounted "works of art". but anyway, that's advertising. i think all "show worlds" have to advertise, because it's an expensive world to live in. i don't pay for any publicity for my rides in the woods or the lessons i teach. nor i admit do i plan to, even if it would educate the masses, though i think lists such as these and personal "me and my icey" websites may take up some of the slack. do you think other breeds have it better? i wouldn't want to be a tb fancier or into saddlebreds these days myself, though we have some very sweet examples of both breeds at our barn. > . second, i have an opportunity to go to an icelandic show with stjarni > > in july. we would enter two classes, "novice four-gait" and "trot > > race". i am really going back and forth on this (i'm not sure i want to > > spend the time and $ on a show, rather than a trail trial or clinic) -- > > but would you count us as "the show world" at that point? > > No...unless you consider yourself a professional trainer. not of iceys, but of icelandic riders, yes indeedy. i have currently seven students, i'm licensed, and i get paid for it. if that's not "professional", what is? (and no, i'm not bringing any of my students to the show, i have only the one pony and i figure two classes with his very own person will be enough for the poor guy's first show.) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 18/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i have two questions: > > . first, would you think it fair to judge our nation of riders and horse > people by *our* "show world"? That seems to be the area that people from other breeds have the most questions about. . second, i have an opportunity to go to an icelandic show with stjarni > in july. we would enter two classes, "novice four-gait" and "trot > race". i am really going back and forth on this (i'm not sure i want to > spend the time and $ on a show, rather than a trail trial or clinic) -- > but would you count us as "the show world" at that point? No...unless you consider yourself a professional trainer. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:29:25PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > If there are positive examples out there, I want to see them...And not > just from ordinary pleasure riders. I want to see some good pics from > the show world. The sooner the better. thanks for the retraction on the harshness; it makes me feel better about the list. i have two questions: . first, would you think it fair to judge our nation of riders and horse people by *our* "show world"? i certainly wouldn't, and i've only even shown at a local/fun level. most of the icelanders i know are no more represented by the "show world" there than most american riders here, i think. . second, i have an opportunity to go to an icelandic show with stjarni in july. we would enter two classes, "novice four-gait" and "trot race". i am really going back and forth on this (i'm not sure i want to spend the time and $ on a show, rather than a trail trial or clinic) -- but would you count us as "the show world" at that point? b/c it is a real proper recognized icelandic-breed show, imported judge and everything, but i am not intending (nor has my instructor been encouraging me) to change a damn thing about how i ride for it, except perhaps for my clothes. but we would certainly take pictures, and ebba is an excellent photographer :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 18/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > well, that seems a rather harsh term. i know a great many people here > in america who change their equipment for showing -- martingales, say, > or even saddles. i understand that dressage riders even do change their > bits, as the "regulation" bits are not necessarily the ones they want to > do their schooling in. Yes, it was harsh Vicka and I'm sorry. I sometimes get so tired of trying to defend things people new to the breed see on the internet. "Why do they do that? What's the reason for that? Can't I ride them in my regular saddle? Why do I need a dropped noseband? Do they need shoes? The list goes on and on and on If there are positive examples out there, I want to see them...And not just from ordinary pleasure riders. I want to see some good pics from the show world. The sooner the better. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
wanda is a little harsh and frustrated because she has a horse that eats all her birdseed and she needs anger management. also, and i hate to even go there but uhmn, you know she's icelandic... so that explains a lot... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:03:16PM -0600, Wanda Lauscher wrote: > On 18/06/07, Nick Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The shank bit is then added shortly before competition or evaluation > > to accomplish additional fine tuning on a horse that is already > > gaiting in good frame with a soft and supple neck and mouth. More > > often than not, if you use a shank bit, and choose to engage it, on a > > horse that isn't already soft, supple and communicating well; it will > > just lose its little mind and stop listening all together - a truly > > dangerous situation! > > That's crap! Who would put all those hours into training and then at > the last minute change a vital piece of equipment? well, that seems a rather harsh term. i know a great many people here in america who change their equipment for showing -- martingales, say, or even saddles. i understand that dressage riders even do change their bits, as the "regulation" bits are not necessarily the ones they want to do their schooling in. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
i know i have a million stories and people must get sick of them haha, but i put a long fancy shanked bit on Jaspar for something, it was etched silver, about ten-12 in shanks. Just gorgeous. a show bit. I never actually rode him in it. then one day on a ride my bridle broke and instead of taking the time to rig up a new one I grabbed the fancy bridle and bit. During the ride we went up a huge claypile and on the way down he started rushing so I pulled back on the reins with my usual pressure, and he threw himself over sideways and fell over the side of the hill and I hit the dirt. he was sitting there like francis the mule and when he got up he was tossing his head all bratty. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
On 18/06/07, Nick Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The shank bit is then added shortly before competition or evaluation > to accomplish additional fine tuning on a horse that is already > gaiting in good frame with a soft and supple neck and mouth. More > often than not, if you use a shank bit, and choose to engage it, on a > horse that isn't already soft, supple and communicating well; it will > just lose its little mind and stop listening all together - a truly > dangerous situation! That's crap! Who would put all those hours into training and then at the last minute change a vital piece of equipment? Wanda
[IceHorses] Re: Bits and Leverage
> i haven't watched this, but is it like western "bridle horse" training, > where there is next to no contact and the (scary-lookin') bits > presumably allow a range of very sensitive slight touch? > > (i wouldn't know, i teach english riding with a snaffle and constant > light contact...) It is somewhat like you suggest, Vicka. A similar concept with a different application. I know a few Icelandic trainers/riders who often ride competition horses in nothing but a double-jointed snaffle - no shanks, chains, or even a nose band - to do substantial gait work, lateral work, and establish good communication with the horse. The shank bit is then added shortly before competition or evaluation to accomplish additional fine tuning on a horse that is already gaiting in good frame with a soft and supple neck and mouth. More often than not, if you use a shank bit, and choose to engage it, on a horse that isn't already soft, supple and communicating well; it will just lose its little mind and stop listening all together - a truly dangerous situation! **Aside - NOT directed at you, Vicka** Of course, that does not account for everyone. These types of tools most probably get used at inappropriate times but I am not about to cast judgment upon anyone on this list - or elsewhere - because I refuse to use this forum as my personal soapbox. I am more than happy to share my own best practices as well as learn from others, but I will not savage and ridicule the practices of others - particularly when my knowledge of what others do is based much more on speculation than fact. Share? Yes. Judge? Preach? Ridicule? No. There is a big difference.
