Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On Monday 30 Jun 2008, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: On 29-Jun-08, at 7:44 AM, Raj Mathur wrote: [snip] Some licences like the GPL force you to provide source code for a nominal fee along with binaries at the user's request; I thought all OSI licenses force you to do this Once again, you need a competent lawyer to show you how various FOSS licences differ from each other. Some, like the GPL, force distribution of source when you distribute binaries. Others like BSD permit you to give and/or sell binaries made from FOSS source without any obligation to provide the source. however, that nominal fee applies to the source code, not to the binaries -- there is no limit on how much you can charge for the binaries. In short, not being able to sell FOSS is a limitation of the market (no one wants to buy it), rather than some intrinsic limitation in FOSS itself. I would tend to the opinion that sale of any software, let alone FOSS is illegal, immoral and an act of cheating - the only point is, that the courts have to recognise this. So are you OK with giving proprietary software away for free? Should we be commending MS for making IE available for download for free? If someone wants to buy a FOSS package it is perfectly legal and, IMO, moral to sell it to her. After all, the package remains doesn't become proprietary by the mere fact of sale -- it remains FOSS. I believe that proprietary (close source) software it unethical and immoral. Not being a communist, I don't believe that just selling software is immoral or unethical. As long as the software remains open you are welcome to make money from in in any way you desire short of making it proprietary. You can give away free copies of proprietary software As for legality, I would only like to quote some statements from the GNU General Public Licence v2.0: quote When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. /quote quote ...if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee... /quote quote You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee. /quote If RMS and all of FSF is satisfied with expressly permitting charging money to distribute FOSS, I'm satisfied that it's legal and ethical. In short: Proprietary software is not the same as commercial software. Regards, -- Raju -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: ultimately law is made by the supreme court. There is no such thing as 'settled law', laws are always subject to change - just needs a larger bench of the supreme court to do so. And when the court looks at any law, they look at the written law as well as such things as natural justice, equity, interests of the state, interests of the public in general and then they pronounce on the law. err... When have our honorable courts have become law makers? Any and all courts only help the interpretation of law laid down by our (dis?)honorable law makers namely - parliament and legislative counciles of states. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ With regards, -- --Dinesh Shah :-) Shah Micro System -- Dan Quayle - It's time for the human race to enter the solar system. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 3:49 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: ultimately law is made by the supreme court. There is no such thing as 'settled law', laws are always subject to change - just needs a larger bench of the supreme court to do so. And when the court looks at any law, they look at the written law as well as such things as natural justice, equity, interests of the state, interests of the public in general and then they pronounce on the law. err... When have our honorable courts have become law makers? Any and all courts only help the interpretation of law laid down by our (dis?)honorable law makers namely - parliament and legislative counciles of states. law comes from: 1. tradition or custom (common law) 2. Parliament and legislative assemblies 3. Ordinances from the executive branch 4. Judgements of the high courts and supreme court but ultimately the final arbiter and hence lawmaker is the supreme court (note the word ultimately in the quote). -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 3:39 PM, Raj Mathur wrote: If someone wants to buy a FOSS package it is perfectly legal and, IMO, moral to sell it to her. After all, the package remains doesn't become proprietary by the mere fact of sale -- it remains FOSS. question is: when you 'sell' FOSS do you charge VAT or do you charge service tax. We recently 'bought' a FOSS package for 3 lakhs. We were charged service tax to the tune of 36,000. If we had 'bought' a proprietary package we would have paid sales tax at 4% or 12,000. (at that time there was no VAT in tamilnadu). -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [30/06/08 14:11 +0530]: I would tend to the opinion that sale of any software, let alone FOSS is illegal, immoral and an act of cheating - the only point is, that the courts have to recognise this. According to all FOSS licences, the software itself need not be available to be downloadable to public - only to the customer (You can't restrain your customers from distributing it though) But the essence being that all the rights the licences talk about, are that of the paying customer. If that is the case, why cannot one sell software with source along with all the other freedoms given by the licence? What is immoral about it? When you are using the term 'immoral', you mean it is the violation of certain principles/intent of the licence. What violation do you see here? - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya http://blog.sandipb.net ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: question is: when you 'sell' FOSS do you charge VAT or do you charge service tax. We recently 'bought' a FOSS package for 3 lakhs. We were charged service tax to the tune of 36,000. If we had 'bought' a proprietary package we would have paid sales tax at 4% or 12,000. (at that time there was no VAT in tamilnadu). -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves DGSD (Directorate General of Supplies and Disposal, Government of India) has a rate contract for Redhat Enterprise Linux and Suse Enterprise Linux. If the above two are considered FOSS, as per the terms and conditions, the prices mentioned are inclusive of CST / 4% VAT. I believe the two are FOSS. And as per the GoI contract document, it is VAT instead of Service Tax!! If you were to emphasis interpret more closely /emphasis, it means most Government Departments are ending up buying FOSS, and that too as a Proprietary Software!!! In fact, it seems it is easier for the seller to propose them as Proprietary Software, and buyer to ask the seller saying that it is a Proprietary Software, to facilitate easy purchase within his organisation. All for the Government records!!! Moreover I am not sure how many purchase officers can tell the difference between the two and how. anand ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 6:05 PM, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: I would tend to the opinion that sale of any software, let alone FOSS is illegal, immoral and an act of cheating - the only point is, that the courts have to recognise this. According to all FOSS licences, the software itself need not be available to be downloadable to public - only to the customer (You can't restrain your customers from distributing it though) But the essence being that all the rights the licences talk about, are that of the paying customer. If that is the case, why cannot one sell software with source along with all the other freedoms given by the licence? What is immoral about it? When you are using the term 'immoral', you mean it is the violation of certain principles/intent of the licence. What violation do you see here? software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can only be shared. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 6:10 PM, Anand Shankar wrote: I believe the two are FOSS. And as per the GoI contract document, it is VAT instead of Service Tax!! If you were to emphasis interpret more closely /emphasis, it means most Government Departments are ending up buying FOSS, and that too as a Proprietary Software!!! In fact, it seems it is easier for the seller to propose them as Proprietary Software, and buyer to ask the seller saying that it is a Proprietary Software, to facilitate easy purchase within his organisation. All for the Government records!!! Moreover I am not sure how many purchase officers can tell the difference between the two and how. I have just mailed the people who are charging service tax - interesting to see what their response is. After all if foss is a product that can be bought and sold, why should they charge extra? Interestingly enough, I am unable to find in the lists of FOSS business models any mention of a business model of selling FOSS as a product. But I suppose in view of the results of this debate, this will change. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
+++ Kenneth Gonsalves [30/06/08 20:41 +0530]: software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can only be shared. And you would gladly share for a neat sum of money? In the Gurukul system, knowledge was gladly shared for next to nothing. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya http://blog.sandipb.net ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:41:22 +0530 Kenneth Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30-Jun-08, at 6:05 PM, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: [snip] software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can only be shared. Bought any books lately? ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 9:42 PM, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can only be shared. And you would gladly share for a neat sum of money? In the Gurukul system, knowledge was gladly shared for next to nothing. quote If I have an idli and I give the idli to you, you have an idli and I don't. So you compensate me with something worth an idli. If I have knowledge and I give the knowledge to you, we both have knowledge, so compensation is limited to the effort I spent in giving you the knowledge. /quote This is the best ever definition I have seen of FOSS. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] FOSS: VAT or service tax [was] Bill Gates got Windows 1.0 source-code from trash-bin
On 30-Jun-08, at 9:46 PM, Jasbir Khehra wrote: Kenneth Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30-Jun-08, at 6:05 PM, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: [snip] software is knowledge. Knowledge cannot be bought or sold. It can only be shared. Bought any books lately? yes - bought two, one on blender and one on django. Strangely enough, both books are available on the net for free download. Yet I forked out a total 49 euro for one and 39 usd for the other. The sharer of knowledge is entitled to be compensated for the cost of sharing. Note that if I had downloaded it, he would not have got that compensation. But since I prefer dead tree based material to digital stuff I gladly paid my contribution towards the work he did to document and communicate his knowledge and the money spent to inscribe this on dead trees. I also bought several books of fiction which are another type of thing altogether. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
