Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/8/10 23:55 , Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
> No, Sun going bankrupt doesn't prove anything.

It's correct - even though for PR the bankrupt is bad. I explain
myself: if Sun had been healthy, it would have been a wonderful proof
that a large corporate can have a friendly attitude towards open
source and the community _and_ be successful. Unfortunately, even
though Reinier is true, now we don't have any single proof that
"friendly attitude -> success". So many detractors of open source
could effectively argue that it's not possible.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:

> As far as charity is illegal goes: If a shareholder can prove you are
> not ensuring maximum earnings, he can sue you
>

Anybody can sue anybody, it means nothing. I think you have some seriously
simplistic views of how the American system works with respect to fiduciary
duties for public companies, and you don't seem to be clear about the
difference between civil and penal, but this thread has digressed enough for
now so I'll just drop this topic.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Kevin Wright]

No it's not, you mistake criminal law for "that which can get you sued".
Criminal offences are illegal, murder is illegal, breaking a contract is not
illegal

This is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort

Giving to charity isn't illegal, it's good PR!


2010/9/8 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot 
> wrote:
>
>> As has been said by others, it is actively
>> ILLEGAL for a publicly traded corporation to engage in charity, if its
>> easy to prove there was an alternate route that would have earned a
>> lot more money.
>>
>
> Er... come again? Where did you get this idea from?
>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:

> We can and should lament the fall of Sun, as they more than any other
> company tried to sell the notion that creating community goodwill is
> good for the corporation, but, well, they went bankrupt
>

Wouldn't that be the proof that creating community goodwill is *bad* for
corporations?

If anything, Google is proving that you can do a lot of things that don't
benefit your bottom line (e.g. http://google.org, giving its employees free
meals every day, giving money to charities and eco-friendly organizations,
etc...) and yet remain profitable.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:

> As has been said by others, it is actively
> ILLEGAL for a publicly traded corporation to engage in charity, if its
> easy to prove there was an alternate route that would have earned a
> lot more money.
>

Er... come again? Where did you get this idea from?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Kevin Wright]

I don't think anyone would disagree that going after Harmony really is an
attack on Open Source.

Unless Oracle are seeking to take down the Patent system (highly unlikely)
by demonstrating that it's too fragile to be allowed to continue,
then I very much doubt that they will act against Apache.

I may be wrong, but I seriously hope not, for all our sakes'


On 8 September 2010 19:55, Fabrizio Giudici
wrote:

>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 9/7/10 15:12 , BoD wrote:
> >> Well, do you think that if you do something against me, you're
> >> all the whole Italy? :-)
> >
> > No but my logic is if Oracle says something very broad like
> > (voluntarily exaggerating for the sake of the argument) "only
> > Oracle has the right to make a VM because we have the patent". Then
> > Android has a VM. And the VM comes from the Apache Harmony open
> > source project (I know this is not the case, just making a
> > point!). The logical conclusion is that the code implemented by
> > Apache is "illegal".
> Harmony does not provide any VM. It provides the runtime libraries.
> Apache Harmony is in the same bad fortune (that is, impossibility to
> access the TCK in a way that Apache considers convenient) as it was
> under Sun.
>
> Then, the lawsuit included also some copyright issues and these might
> involve Harmony as well, but until we don't know something more,
> there's not much we can infer.
>
> BTW, do somebody knows whether the agenda for the trial has been
> already set?
>
> - --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/7/10 15:12 , BoD wrote:
>> Well, do you think that if you do something against me, you're
>> all the whole Italy? :-)
>
> No but my logic is if Oracle says something very broad like
> (voluntarily exaggerating for the sake of the argument) "only
> Oracle has the right to make a VM because we have the patent". Then
> Android has a VM. And the VM comes from the Apache Harmony open
> source project (I know this is not the case, just making a
> point!). The logical conclusion is that the code implemented by
> Apache is "illegal".
Harmony does not provide any VM. It provides the runtime libraries.
Apache Harmony is in the same bad fortune (that is, impossibility to
access the TCK in a way that Apache considers convenient) as it was
under Sun.

Then, the lawsuit included also some copyright issues and these might
involve Harmony as well, but until we don't know something more,
there's not much we can infer.

BTW, do somebody knows whether the agenda for the trial has been
already set?

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

I seem to be repeating myself, which is probably boring, so sorry to those i
have bored. You might want to skip what ive written below...

2010/9/8 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>> fact.
>
>
> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
> look then?
>
>
Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and never
>> even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>> disappointing.
>
>
> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>
>
Compared to all the OSS that Sun gave away its still a small fraction. Sun
sponsored things that were never going to make them money in any form
(simple example Netbeans) while Google only gives away stuff that almost
always helps their goals of pushing people onto the internet assets. My
comment was only made because if you really believe in OSS , as per their
statement, sometimes you need to get the money out. You cant always make
money from every deal, sometimes its about the community, eg Netbeans, or
perhaps in this case, buying Sun. So please dont shout how you love the
community and open source next time, when it was obvious you were being
cheap.


> How many other companies do that?
>

Naive yes - of course i know happens very rarely. My original comment was a
response to people sort of defending the Google stance particularly
regarding the comment "its an attack on Open Source" (paraphrased). All i
was trying to say is if they really love the community and open source, they
should put their money where their mouth is, and contribute some money back
into the ecosystem. Given the value of Sun, Java particularly regarding the
Android platform it seemed "cheap" to not just buy them. Given the costs of
this trial, continued potential uncertainty etc its seems money is being
wasted on lawyers instead of something more worthwhile like buying Sun. In a
few years time what will the cost of this alternative path compared to the
simpler option ?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/7/10 21:16 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Fabrizio Giudici
>  > wrote:
>
> Sun was bought for $6/7M, right?
>
>
> Billions, not millions,
Of course, everything in my message should be rewritten as $xG in
place of $xM.

Of course, this is speculation and Oracle might lose. But I think that
most chances are for a settlement, not for a win / lose (eventually,
the settlement might be what Oracle expects or not, and I'd interpret
"win / lose" in this way).

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
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java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Fabrizio Giudici <
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

> Sun was bought for $6/7M, right?
>

Billions, not millions,

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Serge Boulay]

What happens if Oracle doesn't win the lawsuit? Maybe Google wins and sues
Oracle for irreparable damages (lost time, market share, client confidence
etc).

Nobody really knows what will happen - it's all speculation



On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 9/7/10 11:22 , Casper Bang wrote:
> >
> > What cash? You can not expect Google to have bought Sun just because
> > they happen to use some of their open source technology.
> Honestly, for the few (basically zero) things that I can understand of
> business, Google might have done a big mistake, really. Sun was bought
> for $6/7M, right? If Oracle wins, that is they force a settle down, I
> could expect that Google will pay something in the magnitude of the
> $M, and they will have to share their future revenues on Android,
> which will be further $M in a few years, I suppose. In addition, they
> would have bought all the other assets, some of which could have been
> profitable for them, others could have been sold to recover some $M.
> Not to count all the stress that they could have avoided (to
> themselves and everybody else). And they could have consolidated their
> position in the FLOSS community by becoming the Java steward.
>
> - --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/7/10 11:22 , Casper Bang wrote:
>
> What cash? You can not expect Google to have bought Sun just because
> they happen to use some of their open source technology.
Honestly, for the few (basically zero) things that I can understand of
business, Google might have done a big mistake, really. Sun was bought
for $6/7M, right? If Oracle wins, that is they force a settle down, I
could expect that Google will pay something in the magnitude of the
$M, and they will have to share their future revenues on Android,
which will be further $M in a few years, I suppose. In addition, they
would have bought all the other assets, some of which could have been
profitable for them, others could have been sold to recover some $M.
Not to count all the stress that they could have avoided (to
themselves and everybody else). And they could have consolidated their
position in the FLOSS community by becoming the Java steward.

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Kevin Wright]

Ahh, the joys of due diligence!

IANAL, but...

Company executives are legally compelled to maximise shareholder income,
just so long as they don't break any criminal laws in doing so.
Fail to outsource your clothing factory to China?  Yes, you can get sued for
that...

Nowadays, the only real option for a CxO of a public company with any morals
is to defend "doing the right thing" as public relations.
And as good PR attracts customers, then it's just another case of acting in
the interests of shareholders, right?
Pretty hard to sue someone for good marketing.

Sad that it has to be that way...




On 7 September 2010 18:51, Marcelo Fukushima  wrote:

>
>
> 2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 
>
>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
>> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>>> fact.
>>
>>
>> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
>> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
>> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
>> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
>> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
>> look then?
>>
>>
>>> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
>>> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>>> disappointing.
>>
>>
>> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
>> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>>
>> How many other companies do that?
>>
>
> i can only remember Sun doing something of the like, but that was back in
> the good old days
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Cédric
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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> http://mapsdev.blogspot.com/
> Marcelo Takeshi Fukushima
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Marcelo Fukushima]

2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>> fact.
>
>
> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
> look then?
>
>
>> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
>> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>> disappointing.
>
>
> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>
> How many other companies do that?
>

i can only remember Sun doing something of the like, but that was back in
the good old days


>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny  wrote:

>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
> fact.


Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
look then?


> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
> disappointing.


Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.

How many other companies do that?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

@Casper
This will be my last comment on this. You have conveniently ignored the
overall context of my statements.

re/ GWT
GWT is even more interesting given its changes. Its very much an different
take on the java platform, its great and all makes sense but for legal types
they might cry about what its done to the java brand. Packages like
java.iohad to go after all they dont make sense in a browser, but
removing
reflection while perfectly understandable is an alteration to what is
standard java...

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 9/7/10 10:10 , Miroslav Pokorny wrote:
>
> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash
> and never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but
> its overall, its disappointing.
>
I don't disagree on the whole, but the problem here is clearly
separating the legal vs moral spheres. When we talk about individuals,
it might make sense of talking of moral. When we talk about
corporates, it doesn't. I find pretty natural for each corporate
(especially the larger ones) to push the limit of what they can do as
far as they get to the legal boundary. It's certainly not only an
"american" thing. I don't argue that, and that's for this reason that
I think that, on the whole, there's no big difference between Oracle
and Google. In other words, it's business. Of course, we're free to
apply moral categories to corporates, but it sounds pretty useless to
me, as everybody has got his own personal perspective (and one might
always recall that corporates have got a _moral_ obligation to
increase the ROI of stock holders as much as they can).

That's why I prefer to think of the ongoing war merely in terms of
what it could bring, of positive or negative, to me and the community.

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

Firstly my argument was not about technicalities. Googles statement that it
was an attack on open source was hypocritical because they want to gain from
open source and took advantage of "free" java but when it was their turn to
cough up the cash they did everything but. Im not sure if its business or an
American thing but it seems you forget to about being human which is
sometimes mostly about doing the right thing regardless of what the law
says. Overall most companies forget that simple fact. All im saying is given
all the business benefits and money they made and hope to make from java and
Android, it was their turn to chip and help the community. In this case like
I said before they should have been ebenevolent and bought Sun.

Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and never
even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
disappointing.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Casper Bang  wrote:

> On Sep 7, 2:31 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
> wrote:
> > In the end i am more disappointed in Google than Oracle. I know I got a
> good
> > deal and lot of gifts from Sun and I did not help contribute my bit to
> keep
> > their guardianship of Java going by sponsoring or contributing back to
> their
> > business. I suppose I am one of the many millions of "parasites" who is
> now
> > complaining because some worry the "free" ride may be over.
>
> Ah but then you can be happy that now you can contribute back by
> buying very expensive Oracle database licences. Sun's failure to
> capitalize is not necessarily tied to Java being open source. Are
> there really any software shops who would not be willing to pay for
> state-of-the-art tools, good documentation etc., I doubt it. In any
> even, Sun maintained that the Java side was profitable.
>
>
Dont confuse my argument, i just find Google's stance hypocritical. When
they said its an attack on open source, they really meant its an attack on
their ability to get a free ride...


> >If Google really
> > loved Open Source why didnt they do the benevolent thing and just buy and
> > sponsor Java development into the future, when they had the opportunity.
>
> That's what many of us hoped, primarily because Google seems to have
> the drive and the money to move the art forward.
>
> > Truth be told they tried to be smart playing legal with lots of laywers
> and
> > know its come back to bite them.
>
> Lots of lawyers? Could you explain?
>
>
Google have always been careful with their labelling and marketting of
Android. It is quite obvious that this approach had a lot of legal
consultation and advice from business types who wished to follow this path
rather than just buying Sun. As mentioned in the podcast, they knew that a
questioning of this would occur sometime in the future, it was just a
question of when. In the end, they decided to get fancy and we have the
outcome that we are all witnessing today.


> > They tried to be cheap and avoid
> > contributing back to the community by coughing up the one thing the
> > community or Sun really needed - the cash. Its not as if Google dont have
> > the money, they always seem to have money and millions of it to buy some
> > advertising related company, aka Double click.
>
> I don't think Google owes Sun, they may piggyback of the language
> syntax but 1) Oracle has nothing in their portfolio that rivals
> Android and 2) for many years Google have indeed contributed back by
> means of JSR's and experts like Bloch, Gafter etc. You insinuate they
> tried to be cheap, albeit by all accounts the design behind Android
> was primarily driven by technical and economical considerations. It's
> possible we don't know the full story, Fabrizio Giudici among others
> have hinted at that. Hopefully we will know soon.
>
>
Josh, Neal etc are all brilliant, but one cannot compare $7B to whatever
contributions and efforts they extend.


> If Java was truly open,
> we would not even be talking about this parenting thing, we would be
> talking about our brothers and sisters in the community.
>
>
Maybe so, thats another argument for another day, but my original reply was
to the label "this is an attach on open source".

It Oracle did not buy Sun, and nobody bought it in the end, what else could
be said of those who made billions using Java, its community and yet in its
time of need did not want to be benevolent ? Open Source is about people,
companies giving and taking, sometimes we give a library, or patch here and
there. Bigger entities gain considerably more from open source by
definition, because they benefit from libraries and make more incoming. The
same argument can be said of taxation responsibilities, we all share the
benefits of government and services, we might not like it but dodgying tax
does not help the entire ecosystem, sometimes its the responsibility of
those with more money to put some money back into the system.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

In the end i am more disappointed in Google than Oracle. I know I got a good
deal and lot of gifts from Sun and I did not help contribute my bit to keep
their guardianship of Java going by sponsoring or contributing back to their
business. I suppose I am one of the many millions of "parasites" who is now
complaining because some worry the "free" ride may be over. If Google really
loved Open Source why didnt they do the benevolent thing and just buy and
sponsor Java development into the future, when they had the opportunity.
Truth be told they tried to be smart playing legal with lots of laywers and
know its come back to bite them. They tried to be cheap and avoid
contributing back to the community by coughing up the one thing the
community or Sun really needed - the cash. Its not as if Google dont have
the money, they always seem to have money and millions of it to buy some
advertising related company, aka Double click. Too me I think of my parents,
im never going to make money buy helping them out as they get older, nor is
it ever a business opportunity, but after all they have given me its only
the honourable thing to help them when they need anything or something. In
the end Oracle bought Sun for Java because they believed in its value. Given
they have a different style of business, change and fear of the unknown is
always a worry or concern, for everyone. Time will tell.

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