RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Tue, 2001-12-04 at 16:59, Micheal J wrote: This is wrong IMO. You might not like their views/question but they are entitled to them. I agree that [some of] this thread should have happened on a JBoss general/business discussion list though ;-) A request to move it to the appropriate list [at least as a first step] would have been more appropriate. Man, do I ever agree with that. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Tue, 2001-12-04 at 16:59, Micheal J wrote: This is wrong IMO. You might not like their views/question but they are entitled to them. I agree that [some of] this thread should have happened on a JBoss general/business discussion list though ;-) A request to move it to the appropriate list [at least as a first step] would have been more appropriate. Man, do I ever agree with that. Just look at the ridiculous email I'm forced to use now. Very inconvenient. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Hicks, James Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:30 AM To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? Let me start off by saying that I don't know what initially sparked this thread, but being an employee of a subsidiary of a very large telco, I can relate to some points Ean Schuessler made. Now, I am not attacking anyone on this list or the JBoss Group, I just want to raise a few issues. For the past 3 months I have been reviewing app servers to deploy some internal software on. When I take my proposals to my boss, he will ask a lot of the questions Ean Schuessler asked. Let's face it, there are many 'large' companies that use open source software (tomcat, struts, linux, postgres, mysql, php, perl,), but there aren't many that are using JBoss. It could be that the reason a I beg to differ... I'm not flaming here, but where do you get this information? A lot of people are using JBoss. I have personal experience with 3 of them. One is a large globally known financial institution. Go read the testimonials page. lot of them haven't looked into JBoss is because of some of the responses on this list made by the people that are behind JBoss. When a company decides to go with a spefic product, it is a long term investment. The company is looking for stability and longevity in the product. Seeing some threads on this lists turns a lot of people away. Don't take flames and such on this jboss-dev list too seriously. Remember, we're developers. We're not politically correct. The jboss-dev email list is used mostly by jboss contributors who sometimes have big egos and/or are sometimes obnoxious. jboss-dev is our office, and we have an open office here. Arguments can sometimes get out of hand. This is true even in brick and mortar offices. We all feel strongly about what we're doing here and sometimes this turns into rude, obnoxious flames. Please stick around James, and please don't let these emails spoil the good and the awesome of JBoss. Bill ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
But you've got to admit, it would be a real bummer if your company invested time, talent, and money and *then* you were all removed from the mailing lists. Aaron (wondering if he'll need a Hotmail account to read the replies...) On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Don't take flames and such on this jboss-dev list too seriously. Remember, we're developers. We're not politically correct. The jboss-dev email list is used mostly by jboss contributors who sometimes have big egos and/or are sometimes obnoxious. jboss-dev is our office, and we have an open office here. Arguments can sometimes get out of hand. This is true even in brick and mortar offices. We all feel strongly about what we're doing here and sometimes this turns into rude, obnoxious flames. Please stick around James, and please don't let these emails spoil the good and the awesome of JBoss. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
True. Now I feel bad for the guy. :( -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Aaron Mulder Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 11:09 AM To: jBoss Developer Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? But you've got to admit, it would be a real bummer if your company invested time, talent, and money and *then* you were all removed from the mailing lists. Aaron (wondering if he'll need a Hotmail account to read the replies...) On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Don't take flames and such on this jboss-dev list too seriously. Remember, we're developers. We're not politically correct. The jboss-dev email list is used mostly by jboss contributors who sometimes have big egos and/or are sometimes obnoxious. jboss-dev is our office, and we have an open office here. Arguments can sometimes get out of hand. This is true even in brick and mortar offices. We all feel strongly about what we're doing here and sometimes this turns into rude, obnoxious flames. Please stick around James, and please don't let these emails spoil the good and the awesome of JBoss. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
Bill, Looking at the testimonials page, there doesn't seem to be a really long list of 'large' companies. I see a few that could touch the large category. I try not to take anything to serious. I was just wanting to make a point, that some people in 'decision making' positions might read the archives to see how JBoss is managed internally. Don't we all look at internal management when we want to invest in a product. As far as the big egos , that doesn't really bother me, because I have one to. I think most brilliant people have one. I plan on sticking around. I enjoy helping people who are starting out with JBoss, because the help was available to me when I started. James Hicks -Original Message- From: Bill Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:00 AM To: Hicks, James; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Hicks, James Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:30 AM To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? Let me start off by saying that I don't know what initially sparked this thread, but being an employee of a subsidiary of a very large telco, I can relate to some points Ean Schuessler made. Now, I am not attacking anyone on this list or the JBoss Group, I just want to raise a few issues. For the past 3 months I have been reviewing app servers to deploy some internal software on. When I take my proposals to my boss, he will ask a lot of the questions Ean Schuessler asked. Let's face it, there are many 'large' companies that use open source software (tomcat, struts, linux, postgres, mysql, php, perl,), but there aren't many that are using JBoss. It could be that the reason a I beg to differ... I'm not flaming here, but where do you get this information? A lot of people are using JBoss. I have personal experience with 3 of them. One is a large globally known financial institution. Go read the testimonials page. lot of them haven't looked into JBoss is because of some of the responses on this list made by the people that are behind JBoss. When a company decides to go with a spefic product, it is a long term investment. The company is looking for stability and longevity in the product. Seeing some threads on this lists turns a lot of people away. Don't take flames and such on this jboss-dev list too seriously. Remember, we're developers. We're not politically correct. The jboss-dev email list is used mostly by jboss contributors who sometimes have big egos and/or are sometimes obnoxious. jboss-dev is our office, and we have an open office here. Arguments can sometimes get out of hand. This is true even in brick and mortar offices. We all feel strongly about what we're doing here and sometimes this turns into rude, obnoxious flames. Please stick around James, and please don't let these emails spoil the good and the awesome of JBoss. Bill ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
on 1-12-04 16.30, Hicks, James at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can relate to some points Ean Schuessler made. Now, I am not attacking anyone on this list or the JBoss Group, I just want to raise a few issues. Yes -very good -use the jboss bussines list for those QA's - or lets set up a Heat forum topic ? ... and keep this list for dev related stuff ... /peter_f ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
You are at a restaurant, The Chef offers you the dinner(jboss) and the dessert(free doco). you have to be polite and interresting to be invited at his personnal table, You get nothing more in your plates when you are here, only an interresting discussion, you are not polite, he kicks you off, you are not interresting, he does not listen to you and go to another table, you have to bring a flower pot(10$) to get the pause café (full doco). you want to be sure his restaurant does not close while he is offering dinner to more and more people, give him some pans (support contract) for his new cookers (developers), he opens another restaurant where you have to pay a fabulous dinner , you are free to decide to go there (the consuting/training), you are free to not go, he shouts too much, go in the next restaurant and pay for your dinner. Buuurp, I apologize. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Hicks, James Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2001 16:30 To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? Let me start off by saying that I don't know what initially sparked this thread, but being an employee of a subsidiary of a very large telco, I can relate to some points Ean Schuessler made. Now, I am not attacking anyone on this list or the JBoss Group, I just want to raise a few issues. For the past 3 months I have been reviewing app servers to deploy some internal software on. When I take my proposals to my boss, he will ask a lot of the questions Ean Schuessler asked. Let's face it, there are many 'large' companies that use open source software (tomcat, struts, linux, postgres, mysql, php, perl,), but there aren't many that are using JBoss. It could be that the reason a lot of them haven't looked into JBoss is because of some of the responses on this list made by the people that are behind JBoss. When a company decides to go with a spefic product, it is a long term investment. The company is looking for stability and longevity in the product. Seeing some threads on this lists turns a lot of people away. James Hicks -Original Message- From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:56 AM To: Dain Sundstrom; 'Adam Heath'; Bill Burke Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? The situation has been taken care of, the brainfood guys removed from this list, JBoss-dev is for serious contributors and serious technical discussion, I hate waking up and finding 20 mails of flames talking about forking JBoss. I am not going to provide a forum for this on my own lists. I thank all of you for your unanimous response and support, let's keep on kicking some ass, we are there, back to work marcf |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dain |Sundstrom |Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:36 AM |To: 'Adam Heath'; Bill Burke |Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? | | |Adam, | |The reason people don't remember this is because jboss is so easy to |deploy already that they feel a deb is unecessary. So your |contribution is not highly valued, and not remembered. | |-dain | | -Original Message- | From: Adam Heath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:21 AM | To: Bill Burke | Cc: Adam Heath; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net | Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? | | | On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: | | Didn't see your patch, sorryWell, I actualy couldn't | find it after | looking a little bit. | | Message-ID: | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:07:42 -0600 (CST) | Subject: [PATCH]: [JBoss-dev] can't build jboss from cvs | | The above email patches build.xml, only. It does what I need, to | split the tarballs/zips up. | | Also, another patch I sent, earlier, contains some miscellaneous | patches. | | Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:24:56 -0600 (CST) | Subject: [JBoss-dev] misc patches needed to make .deb for debian | | Sorry if the JBoss community is not what you're used to. | It works for us. | I am now integrating JBoss into a 2nd production system at | a 2nd company, | with much success, and will be moving onto a 3rd in | January.. The JBoss | community is doing something right. I know from experience. | | You have worked at 2 different companies, or did they hire you as a | consultant just to do this integration(not meaning to sound harsh, | just being inquistive). | | Yes. Who the hell is Adam Heath anyways? (Then you could | ask, who the hell | is Bill Burke? :) | | Fair 'nuf. :) | | Don't know what
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
You must have fallen and bumped your head. James -Original Message- From: Vincent Harcq [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:12 PM To: 'Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net' Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? You are at a restaurant, The Chef offers you the dinner(jboss) and the dessert(free doco). you have to be polite and interresting to be invited at his personnal table, You get nothing more in your plates when you are here, only an interresting discussion, you are not polite, he kicks you off, you are not interresting, he does not listen to you and go to another table, you have to bring a flower pot(10$) to get the pause café (full doco). you want to be sure his restaurant does not close while he is offering dinner to more and more people, give him some pans (support contract) for his new cookers (developers), he opens another restaurant where you have to pay a fabulous dinner , you are free to decide to go there (the consuting/training), you are free to not go, he shouts too much, go in the next restaurant and pay for your dinner. Buuurp, I apologize. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Hicks, James Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2001 16:30 To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? Let me start off by saying that I don't know what initially sparked this thread, but being an employee of a subsidiary of a very large telco, I can relate to some points Ean Schuessler made. Now, I am not attacking anyone on this list or the JBoss Group, I just want to raise a few issues. For the past 3 months I have been reviewing app servers to deploy some internal software on. When I take my proposals to my boss, he will ask a lot of the questions Ean Schuessler asked. Let's face it, there are many 'large' companies that use open source software (tomcat, struts, linux, postgres, mysql, php, perl,), but there aren't many that are using JBoss. It could be that the reason a lot of them haven't looked into JBoss is because of some of the responses on this list made by the people that are behind JBoss. When a company decides to go with a spefic product, it is a long term investment. The company is looking for stability and longevity in the product. Seeing some threads on this lists turns a lot of people away. James Hicks -Original Message- From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:56 AM To: Dain Sundstrom; 'Adam Heath'; Bill Burke Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? The situation has been taken care of, the brainfood guys removed from this list, JBoss-dev is for serious contributors and serious technical discussion, I hate waking up and finding 20 mails of flames talking about forking JBoss. I am not going to provide a forum for this on my own lists. I thank all of you for your unanimous response and support, let's keep on kicking some ass, we are there, back to work marcf |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dain |Sundstrom |Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:36 AM |To: 'Adam Heath'; Bill Burke |Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net |Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? | | |Adam, | |The reason people don't remember this is because jboss is so easy to |deploy already that they feel a deb is unecessary. So your |contribution is not highly valued, and not remembered. | |-dain | | -Original Message- | From: Adam Heath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:21 AM | To: Bill Burke | Cc: Adam Heath; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net | Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? | | | On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: | | Didn't see your patch, sorryWell, I actualy couldn't | find it after | looking a little bit. | | Message-ID: | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:07:42 -0600 (CST) | Subject: [PATCH]: [JBoss-dev] can't build jboss from cvs | | The above email patches build.xml, only. It does what I need, to | split the tarballs/zips up. | | Also, another patch I sent, earlier, contains some miscellaneous | patches. | | Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:24:56 -0600 (CST) | Subject: [JBoss-dev] misc patches needed to make .deb for debian | | Sorry if the JBoss community is not what you're used to. | It works for us. | I am now integrating JBoss into a 2nd production system at | a 2nd company, | with much success, and will be moving onto a 3rd in | January.. The JBoss | community is doing something right. I know from experience. | | You have worked at 2 different companies, or did
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
BTW, Marc was just iterating what a lot of us were thinking but were too afraid to say. Put up or shut up dude. I did submit a patch to build.xml to do what I want. No one seems to recall that. I have that patch, just have not had time to deal with it yet. --jason ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Jason Dillon wrote: BTW, Marc was just iterating what a lot of us were thinking but were too afraid to say. Put up or shut up dude. I did submit a patch to build.xml to do what I want. No one seems to recall that. I have that patch, just have not had time to deal with it yet. I know you received it, I wasn't directing the above at you. It's just no one else seems to think I have contributed ANYTHING, yet I have proven that that isn't true. I may not have contributed what some would think as anything important, but saying I have done NOTHING is wrong. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of marc fleury Sent: 04 December 2001 14:56 To: Dain Sundstrom; 'Adam Heath'; Bill Burke Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? The situation has been taken care of, the brainfood guys removed from this list, This is wrong IMO. You might not like their views/question but they are entitled to them. I agree that [some of] this thread should have happened on a JBoss general/business discussion list though ;-) A request to move it to the appropriate list [at least as a first step] would have been more appropriate. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, marc fleury wrote: I said I would check on him. Yes, you did. So where is the code that integrates apache, anything to add to what was commited by scott? It's in 2.4.3. crocodile skin makes great underwear We got a new crocodile? or a new RW? rw soldiers perform great under wars I prefer boots myself. marcf Marc Fleury President JBoss Group, LLC I will not work on stuff that I am not paid to do, or that I do not feel a connection to on a psychological level. I am being paid to Debianize jboss. So that is what I am working on. I am doing this for 2.4.3(and soon, will migrate to 2.4.4), as that is the stable released version of jboss. I am not being paid to work on jboss 3.0. So, anything I do for that version will be done in my spare, free time. Seeing as how I am also a Debian developer, and I do that in my free time, jboss 3.0 gets no portion. Adam Heath Software Engineer / Debian developer Brainfood, Inc. / Debian Project ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
|I will not work on stuff that I am not paid to do, or that I do not feel a |connection to on a psychological level. | |I am being paid to Debianize jboss. So that is what I am working on. I am |doing this for 2.4.3(and soon, will migrate to 2.4.4), as that is |the stable |released version of jboss. | |I am not being paid to work on jboss 3.0. So, anything I do for |that version |will be done in my spare, free time. Seeing as how I am also a Debian |developer, and I do that in my free time, jboss 3.0 gets no portion. I seriously doubt you are a developer of anything kid... good bye marcf | |Adam Heath |Software Engineer / Debian developer |Brainfood, Inc. / Debian Project | | ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 15:53, marc fleury wrote: I seriously doubt you are a developer of anything kid... I usually wouldn't credit this kind of bait with a response, but since I am considering doing business with your organization I suppose that it is worth exploring. Adam Heath is one of my employees. In addition to a fairly comprehensive knowledge of Java, C, Perl and every Shell variant I've ever seen he also has a fairly solid design sense. I have asked Adam to Debianize the JBoss system. We use Debian fairly exclusively for our production environment both for its usability and its alignment with our philosophical perspective. I'm quite sure that Debian users at large will find Adam's debs handy. While we are discussing being for real I must say that the way you conduct yourself raises serious issues for me. I have been examining your partner program and have been trying to decide what is going on with this JBoss critter you are all cooking up. The code is undeniably good, but I'm somewhat unclear about the arrangements. There seem to be a lot of possibilities: 1. JBoss, the Open Source project. 2. JBoss, the training organization. 3. JBoss, the book publisher. 4. JBoss, the marketing organization. 5. JBoss, the loud Frenchman who loves to flame people. I'm very interested in being involved with #1 but I don't know how much I need or want to be involved in #2, #3, #4 or #5. That is what I'm in the process of figuring out and it doesn't help that #5 insists on dismissing issues I consider important and belittling my employees. Is the JBoss group a non-profit, not-for-profit? Should I regard it as an Open Source project or a competitor? As I look into committing more time and money to the JBoss project I am wondering if I am helping Marc build a consulting company. I'm looking for something like the Apache project. A group that produces a mutually useful infrastructure without disproportionally rewarding one person in particular. I don't know how many of you have similar questions or issues and I'm happy to shut up and just use the code. For those that are interested here are a few facts about our organization: - We are a little 20 man shop in Dallas, Texas that has been around for about ten years. - We routinely execute contracts for Fortune 500 companies. - We are the longest continuous commercial sponsor of the Debian project. - Our employees include the primary architect of the GCJ Java compiler, who is also on the GCC steering committee. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, marc fleury wrote: I seriously doubt you are a developer of anything kid... See, this is why I didn't respond to your ultimatum email a week ago. I had a suspicion that you would only answer with a pure flame. I guess I was proven right. At this point a person, only interested in the flame rebuttable, would come back and list, point by point, what they had done or worked on in the past. I won't do that. There is no need to bore anyone here with the details. After all, my history in open source is documented. Just go looking on your favorite search engine, to find what I have done. good bye I had really been trying to keep an open, functioning dialog between me and certain parties on this list. I can see that doing so is an effort in futility. I guess my only recourse is to not even attempt to maintain an open dialog, as I am shunted at every turn. marcf Are there others out there in the jboss world, that have a bit of common sense or decency? I certainly haven't seen any coming from little old marc here. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
on 1-12-04 03.55, Ean Schuessler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the JBoss group a non-profit, not-for-profit? You are still in the last century ? are You not ? it is a new dawn here ! glowing ... /peter_f Only fools se darkness in the night - the wise se a vault of azure ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 21:30, Peter Fagerlund wrote: You are still in the last century ? are You not ? it is a new dawn here ! glowing ... Please, spare me the rhetoric. I know plenty about mixing business and Free Software. There only a few things I can so far detect about JBoss: - The code looks really cool. - A lot of people are working on it and committing effort. - Marc seems to have complete ownership of the domain and, more importantly, the trademark. (http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=docstate=3k4bgs.4.1) - Marc has retained Larry Rosen, who is also associated with the Open Source Initiative, as an attorney. - Beyond the apparently successful training effort there is a developing focus on services. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 21:30, Peter Fagerlund wrote: You are still in the last century ? are You not ? it is a new dawn here ! glowing ... Please, spare me the rhetoric. I know plenty about mixing business and Free Software. There only a few things I can so far detect about JBoss: - The code looks really cool. - A lot of people are working on it and committing effort. - Marc seems to have complete ownership of the domain and, more importantly, the trademark. (http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=docstate=3k4bgs.4.1) so - Marc has retained Larry Rosen, who is also associated with the Open Source Initiative, as an attorney. so - Beyond the apparently successful training effort there is a developing focus on services. I hope so. What is wrong with offering consulting (advice) and support from the source? -dain ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
Are there others out there in the jboss world, that have a bit of common sense or decency? I certainly haven't seen any coming from little old marc here. Adam, you need to eat a piece of humble pie. If you had taken it upon yourself to contribute the tomcat-jboss integration, we would have all applauded your efforts and gladly offered our support and guidance to your problems. BTW, Marc was just iterating what a lot of us were thinking but were too afraid to say. Put up or shut up dude. Bill ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
Ean, Adam Heath is getting flamed because he has been a jerk. You don't go on these lists demanding features and bashing people because certain features don't work to a community of developers who mostly all work for free! I secretly applauded Marc for flaming Adam because I'm sick and tired of winy-ass developers coming on this list demanding things when they have not contributed anything in return. I work hard on JBoss in my free time, and it is a slap in the face when somebody comes around with this kind of attitude. If you want to have that kind of attitude on this email list, you have to EARN that right and privilege. Marc is the source of JBoss. He provides its energy and vision. He gives us focus. I can tell you from personal experience that Marc takes care of those who are contributors of jboss and takes care of them well. He breeds loyalty and always gives back what you put into the JBoss community. There are 2 forms of currency here in the JBoss community. Contributions through code, documentation, and/or answering questions on the user-lists/forums. Or paying JBossGroup directly to implement features. Yes, Adam, may be a good developer as you say, but who really cares? I don't. Unless he contributes some of his solid design experience to our community, I personally have no desire to answer one of his questions. Good Day, Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ean Schuessler Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:56 PM To: marc fleury Cc: Adam Heath; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 15:53, marc fleury wrote: I seriously doubt you are a developer of anything kid... I usually wouldn't credit this kind of bait with a response, but since I am considering doing business with your organization I suppose that it is worth exploring. Adam Heath is one of my employees. In addition to a fairly comprehensive knowledge of Java, C, Perl and every Shell variant I've ever seen he also has a fairly solid design sense. I have asked Adam to Debianize the JBoss system. We use Debian fairly exclusively for our production environment both for its usability and its alignment with our philosophical perspective. I'm quite sure that Debian users at large will find Adam's debs handy. While we are discussing being for real I must say that the way you conduct yourself raises serious issues for me. I have been examining your partner program and have been trying to decide what is going on with this JBoss critter you are all cooking up. The code is undeniably good, but I'm somewhat unclear about the arrangements. There seem to be a lot of possibilities: 1. JBoss, the Open Source project. 2. JBoss, the training organization. 3. JBoss, the book publisher. 4. JBoss, the marketing organization. 5. JBoss, the loud Frenchman who loves to flame people. I'm very interested in being involved with #1 but I don't know how much I need or want to be involved in #2, #3, #4 or #5. That is what I'm in the process of figuring out and it doesn't help that #5 insists on dismissing issues I consider important and belittling my employees. Is the JBoss group a non-profit, not-for-profit? Should I regard it as an Open Source project or a competitor? As I look into committing more time and money to the JBoss project I am wondering if I am helping Marc build a consulting company. I'm looking for something like the Apache project. A group that produces a mutually useful infrastructure without disproportionally rewarding one person in particular. I don't know how many of you have similar questions or issues and I'm happy to shut up and just use the code. For those that are interested here are a few facts about our organization: - We are a little 20 man shop in Dallas, Texas that has been around for about ten years. - We routinely execute contracts for Fortune 500 companies. - We are the longest continuous commercial sponsor of the Debian project. - Our employees include the primary architect of the GCJ Java compiler, who is also on the GCC steering committee. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 21:59, Dain Sundstrom wrote: - Marc seems to have complete ownership of the domain and, more importantly, the trademark. (http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=docstate=3k4bgs.4.1) so - Marc has retained Larry Rosen, who is also associated with the Open Source Initiative, as an attorney. so - Beyond the apparently successful training effort there is a developing focus on services. I hope so. What is wrong with offering consulting (advice) and support from the source? Well, that is a complex discussion. What if Linus Torvalds had decided to try and start the next SCO instead of giving Linux away? What if Brian Behlendorf had tried to be the next Netscape? You will have to excuse me asking these questions. I'm new to this effort of yours and I must admit that I have some questions to ask before I start slapping $20,000.00 on the barrelhead. I'm happy to help fund an OpenSource EJB engine. That looks good. But if I'm giving start-up capital to a potential competitor then I want some stock! All I can see right now is that Marc owns JBoss outright for most intents and purposes. The benevolent dictator model is a common one, but there is something else more complex going on here. The Perl and Apache trademarks are not licensed to partners and Larry Wall doesn't keep a VP of business development around. I'm here to help. I have significant resources. I have a responsibility to those resources. I'm just asking the questions that I have to ask in order to move forward. Also, to save me some trouble, what was Telkel and where did it go? -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
You make my heart sing. AMEN. Andy - Original Message - From: Bill Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; marc fleury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 8:05 PM Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? Ean, Adam Heath is getting flamed because he has been a jerk. You don't go on these lists demanding features and bashing people because certain features don't work to a community of developers who mostly all work for free! I secretly applauded Marc for flaming Adam because I'm sick and tired of winy-ass developers coming on this list demanding things when they have not contributed anything in return. I work hard on JBoss in my free time, and it is a slap in the face when somebody comes around with this kind of attitude. If you want to have that kind of attitude on this email list, you have to EARN that right and privilege. Marc is the source of JBoss. He provides its energy and vision. He gives us focus. I can tell you from personal experience that Marc takes care of those who are contributors of jboss and takes care of them well. He breeds loyalty and always gives back what you put into the JBoss community. There are 2 forms of currency here in the JBoss community. Contributions through code, documentation, and/or answering questions on the user-lists/forums. Or paying JBossGroup directly to implement features. Yes, Adam, may be a good developer as you say, but who really cares? I don't. Unless he contributes some of his solid design experience to our community, I personally have no desire to answer one of his questions. Good Day, Bill ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: Ean Schuessler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:11 PM To: Dain Sundstrom Cc: Peter Fagerlund; marc fleury; Adam Heath; Jboss-Development@Lists. \ \ Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 21:59, Dain Sundstrom wrote: - Marc seems to have complete ownership of the domain and, more importantly, the trademark. (http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=docstate=3k4bgs.4.1) so - Marc has retained Larry Rosen, who is also associated with the Open Source Initiative, as an attorney. so - Beyond the apparently successful training effort there is a developing focus on services. I hope so. What is wrong with offering consulting (advice) and support from the source? Well, that is a complex discussion. Exactly. You have stated some facts. Now what are the implications of these facts. Enlighten us with your experience with the open source community. What if Linus Torvalds had decided to try and start the next SCO instead of giving Linux away? What if Brian Behlendorf had tried to be the next Netscape? Then we wouldn't have Linux or Netscape. What is the point? The source code for JBoss is distributed under LPGL. At anytime someone could fork the project and change the name to FunkOSS. You will have to excuse me asking these questions. I'm new to this effort of yours and I must admit that I have some questions to ask before I start slapping $20,000.00 on the barrelhead. I'm happy to help fund an OpenSource EJB engine. That looks good. But if I'm giving start-up capital to a potential competitor then I want some stock! Come on. You and I know that 20k doesn't go that far. All I can see right now is that Marc owns JBoss outright for most intents and purposes. The benevolent dictator model is a common one, but there is something else more complex going on here. Like what? What are you trying to say without saying it? The Perl and Apache trademarks are not licensed to partners and Larry Wall doesn't keep a VP of business development around. That is the way they do business. Does JBoss have to play follow the leader? Did Apache and Larry try this and fail? Is there a reason why this is a bad idea? I'm here to help. I have significant resources. I have a responsibility to those resources. I'm just asking the questions that I have to ask in order to move forward. What questions? Skim your email and count the question marks. You are performing due diligence. You see things you have not seen before and they give you a queasy feeling. (right?) So what don't you like? Try to start a discussion, and ask questions instead of writing vague accusations. Also, to save me some trouble, what was Telkel and where did it go? -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com Now that is a good question? :) What happened to Telkel? -dain ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 22:43, Dain Sundstrom wrote: You are performing due diligence. You see things you have not seen before and they give you a queasy feeling. (right?) So what don't you like? Try to start a discussion, and ask questions instead of writing vague accusations. Fair enough. - What formal guarantees are there that my contributions will not be used to create a for-profit proprietary product? - What guarantee do I have that JBoss will remain a fair and participatory organization that does not isolate members for purely political or profit-motivated reasons as opposed to matters purely technical? - What actions are underway to migrate JBoss' ownership from Marc to an organization with formal, published by-laws that is managed in an open and participatory manner? - Is there anything akin to the Debian Social Contract in JBoss? A social contract between JBoss and its community? (http://www.debian.org/social_contract) Answers to questions like these will determine the extent that we invest in a shared infrastructure or directly hire people to mature the infrastructure ourselves. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
So a request for what seemed to be a platform specific distribution of a platform independent project did not go over well and some flamed you. Denigrating the rest of the developer community because of this doesn't add to the quality of the thread. Forgive, forget and trooper on. Scott Stark Chief Technology Officer JBoss Group, LLC - Original Message - From: Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:29 PM Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, marc fleury wrote: I seriously doubt you are a developer of anything kid... See, this is why I didn't respond to your ultimatum email a week ago. I had a suspicion that you would only answer with a pure flame. I guess I was proven right. At this point a person, only interested in the flame rebuttable, would come back and list, point by point, what they had done or worked on in the past. I won't do that. There is no need to bore anyone here with the details. After all, my history in open source is documented. Just go looking on your favorite search engine, to find what I have done. good bye I had really been trying to keep an open, functioning dialog between me and certain parties on this list. I can see that doing so is an effort in futility. I guess my only recourse is to not even attempt to maintain an open dialog, as I am shunted at every turn. marcf Are there others out there in the jboss world, that have a bit of common sense or decency? I certainly haven't seen any coming from little old marc here. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
Now we are getting somewhere. On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 22:43, Dain Sundstrom wrote: You are performing due diligence. You see things you have not seen before and they give you a queasy feeling. (right?) So what don't you like? Try to start a discussion, and ask questions instead of writing vague accusations. Fair enough. - What formal guarantees are there that my contributions will not be used to create a for-profit proprietary product? It already has. I believe that webgain already imbeds JBoss. It is an LPGL license after all. Or is that not what you ment? - What guarantee do I have that JBoss will remain a fair and participatory organization that does not isolate members for purely political or profit-motivated reasons as opposed to matters purely technical? - What actions are underway to migrate JBoss' ownership from Marc to an organization with formal, published by-laws that is managed in an open and participatory manner? - Is there anything akin to the Debian Social Contract in JBoss? A social contract between JBoss and its community? (http://www.debian.org/social_contract) Answers to questions like these will determine the extent that we invest in a shared infrastructure or directly hire people to mature the infrastructure ourselves. The rest of these are good question. I personally don't care about their answers. It is just my own time and money invested. I am and always have been prepared to walk. For you it is not your money and you have a fiduciary responsibly to your stock holders. I personally like the benevolent dictator, and dislike other overly politicized styles. To each their own. -dain ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 23:21, Scott M Stark wrote: So a request for what seemed to be a platform specific distribution of a platform independent project did not go over well and some flamed you. Denigrating the rest of the developer community because of this doesn't add to the quality of the thread. Forgive, forget and trooper on. True enough. Although, I thought Adam's requests were licensing oriented rather than platform oriented. The non-free software being the problem for Debian that is. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Ean, Adam Heath is getting flamed because he has been a jerk. You don't go on these lists demanding features and bashing people because certain features don't work to a community of developers who mostly all work for free! I secretly applauded Marc for flaming Adam because I'm sick and tired of winy-ass developers coming on this list demanding things when they have not contributed anything in return. I work hard on JBoss in my free time, and it is a slap in the face when somebody comes around with this kind of attitude. If you want to have that kind of attitude on this email list, you have to EARN that right and privilege. I was being a jerk? I may have been inappropriate *at times*, but not every single time. I never *demanded* features. I never said it didn't work. I was asking for a different source distribution. Which, if you recall, I did eventually submit a patch for, to do exactly what I need, after Jason and I had discussed it on this list. But, it appears you only want to selectively remember. A short, simple note, along the lines of: We have not done these features, because we have not had time. There have been more pressing needs(new, super cool features, fixing real bugs), that we have given our time to. If there is something that you would like to see, code it up/write up a document describing what you need, and we can develop it together. would have been much more polite. Yet, marc decided to attack me back, instead of being nice, and redirecting my obvious explosive energies to more productive means. I am use to community development. I am not used to tons of single, individual people from a community, all going off, coding one feature here, one feature there, and then coming back at the end, to put it all together. I am used to discussion all the way, discussion, talk, discussion, flame, talk, decide, flame, discussion, decide, vote(throw code in between each word). As to earning the right and privledge, do I have to earn the right and privledge for any particular item, each time I change my venue? That's not how it works in the business world. There is such a thing called credentials, and a resume, that describes what a person is capable of. This can be enough in and of itself to warrant giving one respect. I have lots of experience in packaging software for Debian. I know the issues with doing this. And some of those issues I brought up a bit ago(no need to rehash them here). I would have thought that it would have been appropriate to use my packaging expertise, to make jboss a better package. But then that's me. Marc is the source of JBoss. He provides its energy and vision. He gives us focus. I can tell you from personal experience that Marc takes care of those who are contributors of jboss and takes care of them well. He breeds loyalty and always gives back what you put into the JBoss community. If he is the source, then he isn't conducting himself in a business fashion. So what if I was being an ass(I can be at times, I admit it freely). Every single message from marc to me has been combative. Not all from me to this list have been the same. There are 2 forms of currency here in the JBoss community. Contributions through code, documentation, and/or answering questions on the user-lists/forums. Or paying JBossGroup directly to implement features. Yes, Adam, may be a good developer as you say, but who really cares? I don't. Unless he contributes some of his solid design experience to our community, I personally have no desire to answer one of his questions. How is one supposed to get started with jboss? Where is the voluminous documentation on how to start understanding the code, so one can start improving the software? Is jboss-dev not a user list? Isn't discussion on this list a form of giving back? You don't care if I am a good developer? Then why did you say above that I have to prove myself, if you don't care. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ean Schuessler Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:00 AM To: Dain Sundstrom Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 22:43, Dain Sundstrom wrote: You are performing due diligence. You see things you have not seen before and they give you a queasy feeling. (right?) So what don't you like? Try to start a discussion, and ask questions instead of writing vague accusations. Fair enough. - What formal guarantees are there that my contributions will not be used to create a for-profit proprietary product? You're protected as much as LGPL. You'll have to ask a lawyer. I hate lawyers and I hate licenses. I believe in brutal capitalism dude. Survival of the fittest. Spare me your commie crap. - What guarantee do I have that JBoss will remain a fair and participatory organization that does not isolate members for purely political or profit-motivated reasons as opposed to matters purely technical? - What actions are underway to migrate JBoss' ownership from Marc to an organization with formal, published by-laws that is managed in an open and participatory manner? Who on this list has the time, energy, and/or money to support/run this type of organization? ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Adam, you need to eat a piece of humble pie. If you had taken it upon yourself to contribute the tomcat-jboss integration, we would have all applauded your efforts and gladly offered our support and guidance to your problems. As I said in another email, I discuss first. However, that doesn't appear to be the way jboss functions. BTW, Marc was just iterating what a lot of us were thinking but were too afraid to say. Put up or shut up dude. I did submit a patch to build.xml to do what I want. No one seems to recall that. I do what I need, to support the work I am paid for. We(brainfood) are not using 3.0 yet(it's still alpha, after all), so any work I end up doing on 3.0 is purely voluntary. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Who on this list has the time, energy, and/or money to support/run this type of organization? That's just it. This entire list would run it. It wouldn't be any one person, or any one small group of people. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
YOu don't get it. We don't need this organization. Things are running just fine. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Adam Heath Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:02 AM To: JBoss Development Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Who on this list has the time, energy, and/or money to support/run this type of organization? That's just it. This entire list would run it. It wouldn't be any one person, or any one small group of people. ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 23:46, Bill Burke wrote: - What formal guarantees are there that my contributions will not be used to create a for-profit proprietary product? You're protected as much as LGPL. You'll have to ask a lawyer. I hate lawyers and I hate licenses. I believe in brutal capitalism dude. Survival of the fittest. Spare me your commie crap. LGPL protects you only as far as the original author is not interested in relicensing. If JBoss group owns, lets say, 80% of the code then the JBoss group can most certainly bundle a for-pay product that is a LGPL/proprietary hybrid. I've seen this approach tried in the past by various groups, Kaffe among them. It leads to forks. As to capitalist dudes and commie crap, I'm not sure where you are headed with that. - What actions are underway to migrate JBoss' ownership from Marc to an organization with formal, published by-laws that is managed in an open and participatory manner? Who on this list has the time, energy, and/or money to support/run this type of organization? There are umbrella organizations already in place to manage this sort of thing. Software in the Public Interest manages Debian's assets. There is the Apache Software Foundation, but the LGPL is a problem there. There is even the Free Software Foundation for that matter. I will personally assist in the process of solving the problem if desired. -- _ Ean Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brainfood, Inc. http://www.brainfood.com ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ean Schuessler Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 23:46, Bill Burke wrote: - What formal guarantees are there that my contributions will not be used to create a for-profit proprietary product? You're protected as much as LGPL. You'll have to ask a lawyer. I hate lawyers and I hate licenses. I believe in brutal capitalism dude. Survival of the fittest. Spare me your commie crap. LGPL protects you only as far as the original author is not interested in relicensing. If JBoss group owns, lets say, 80% of the code then the JBoss group can most certainly bundle a for-pay product that is a LGPL/proprietary hybrid. I really don't care who makes money off of what I do. That's just me though. To each his own I've seen this approach tried in the past by various groups, Kaffe among them. It leads to forks. Now you're talking some sense and like you've had some experience in this area. As to capitalist dudes and commie crap, I'm not sure where you are headed with that. Just messin' with ya. You do sound like a commie though - What actions are underway to migrate JBoss' ownership from Marc to an organization with formal, published by-laws that is managed in an open and participatory manner? Who on this list has the time, energy, and/or money to support/run this type of organization? There are umbrella organizations already in place to manage this sort of thing. Software in the Public Interest manages Debian's assets. There is the Apache Software Foundation, but the LGPL is a problem there. There Apache Software Foundation. You mean IBM? Yeah, right...JBoss should be under that Sphere of influence. Sure. Get real... is even the Free Software Foundation for that matter. I will personally assist in the process of solving the problem if desired. Now I'm not messin' with ya. The FSF is a bunch of commies. I've been around here since February. This organization moves and moves fast. Why would it want to be tied down to these slow bureaucratic orgs? Bill ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Adam Heath Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:33 AM To: Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Ean, Adam Heath is getting flamed because he has been a jerk. You don't go on these lists demanding features and bashing people because certain features don't work to a community of developers who mostly all work for free! I secretly applauded Marc for flaming Adam because I'm sick and tired of winy-ass developers coming on this list demanding things when they have not contributed anything in return. I work hard on JBoss in my free time, and it is a slap in the face when somebody comes around with this kind of attitude. If you want to have that kind of attitude on this email list, you have to EARN that right and privilege. I was being a jerk? I may have been inappropriate *at times*, but not every single time. I never *demanded* features. I never said it didn't work. I was asking for a different source distribution. Which, if you recall, I did eventually submit a patch for, to do exactly what I need, after Didn't see your patch, sorryWell, I actualy couldn't find it after looking a little bit. A short, simple note, along the lines of: We have not done these features, because we have not had time. There have been more pressing needs(new, super cool features, fixing real bugs), that we have given our time to. If there is something that you would like to see, code it up/write up a document describing what you need, and we can develop it together. would have been much more polite. Yet, marc decided to attack me back, instead of being nice, and redirecting my obvious explosive energies to more productive means. I am use to community development. I am not used to tons of single, individual people from a community, all going off, coding one feature here, one feature there, and then coming back at the end, to put it all together. I am used to discussion all the way, discussion, talk, discussion, flame, talk, decide, flame, discussion, decide, vote(throw code in between each word). Sorry if the JBoss community is not what you're used to. It works for us. I am now integrating JBoss into a 2nd production system at a 2nd company, with much success, and will be moving onto a 3rd in January.. The JBoss community is doing something right. I know from experience. As to earning the right and privledge, do I have to earn the right and privledge for any particular item, each time I change my venue? Yes. Who the hell is Adam Heath anyways? (Then you could ask, who the hell is Bill Burke? :) That's not how it works in the business world. There is such a thing called Don't know what business world you live in, but respect is usually earned not given. Sure credentials get you noticed, but after that you have to earn the respect of your peers. And yes, we are your peers. Only results and money talk in the business world. Unless you're a commie. I thought we purged you commies back in the '50s? credentials, and a resume, that describes what a person is capable of. This can be enough in and of itself to warrant giving one respect. It doesn't work like that here. Somebody correct me, but, IMHO, we have a meritocracy here. You get what you give. I have lots of experience in packaging software for Debian. I know the issues with doing this. And some of those issues I brought up a bit ago(no need to rehash them here). I would have thought that it would have been appropriate to use my packaging expertise, to make jboss a better package. But then that's me. Well, honestly, from the emails I've read, didn't sound like you were contributing any expertise, but rather voicing complaints. Marc is the source of JBoss. He provides its energy and vision. He gives us focus. I can tell you from personal experience that Marc takes care of those who are contributors of jboss and takes care of them well. He breeds loyalty and always gives back what you put into the JBoss community. If he is the source, then he isn't conducting himself in a business fashion. So what if I was being an ass(I can be at times, I admit it freely). Every single message from marc to me has been combative. Not all from me to this list have been the same. IMHO, I'd rather work with somebody that is blunt. We don't have time to pussyfoot around here. There are 2 forms of currency here in the JBoss community. Contributions through code, documentation, and/or answering questions on the user-lists/forums. Or paying JBossGroup directly to implement features. Yes, Adam, may be a good developer as you say, but who really cares? I don't. Unless he contributes some of his solid design experience to our
RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath?
Adam, The reason people don't remember this is because jboss is so easy to deploy already that they feel a deb is unecessary. So your contribution is not highly valued, and not remembered. -dain -Original Message- From: Adam Heath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:21 AM To: Bill Burke Cc: Adam Heath; Jboss-Development@Lists. Sourceforge. Net Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] time is up, where is adam heath? On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Bill Burke wrote: Didn't see your patch, sorryWell, I actualy couldn't find it after looking a little bit. Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:07:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [PATCH]: [JBoss-dev] can't build jboss from cvs The above email patches build.xml, only. It does what I need, to split the tarballs/zips up. Also, another patch I sent, earlier, contains some miscellaneous patches. Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:24:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [JBoss-dev] misc patches needed to make .deb for debian Sorry if the JBoss community is not what you're used to. It works for us. I am now integrating JBoss into a 2nd production system at a 2nd company, with much success, and will be moving onto a 3rd in January.. The JBoss community is doing something right. I know from experience. You have worked at 2 different companies, or did they hire you as a consultant just to do this integration(not meaning to sound harsh, just being inquistive). Yes. Who the hell is Adam Heath anyways? (Then you could ask, who the hell is Bill Burke? :) Fair 'nuf. :) Don't know what business world you live in, but respect is usually earned not given. Sure credentials get you noticed, but after that you have to earn the respect of your peers. And yes, we are your peers. Only results and money talk in the business world. Unless you're a commie. I thought we purged you commies back in the '50s? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but true believers in the free software doctrine could be compared to commies, in theory. It doesn't work like that here. Somebody correct me, but, IMHO, we have a meritocracy here. You get what you give. Hmm. new word alert. scanning dictionary.com... I've shown ability. Yet, it seems to be ignored, and the only focus is on my, at times, harsh mails. Hmm, that description doesn't seem to apply. Well, honestly, from the emails I've read, didn't sound like you were contributing any expertise, but rather voicing complaints. Go read again. Jason Dillon and I had quite a discussion, with both sides learning about the other. IMHO, I'd rather work with somebody that is blunt. We don't have time to pussyfoot around here. I'd rather work with someone who is sharp. :) How is one supposed to get started with jboss? Where is the voluminous documentation on how to start understanding the code, so one can start improving the software? If you pay the $9.99, there you go ;-) Hmmm, I've never had trouble figuring out how to contribute. I haven't had troubvle figuring out how, it's just I haven't been motivated to do so. When I have tried to contribute, it's been ignored, or blasted for being moronic. That doesn't make me want to continue. Is jboss-dev not a user list? Isn't discussion on this list a form of giving back? jboss-dev is not a user list. It is a jboss contributor list. So, one can't answer questions on jboss-dev, and be considering giving back to the community? After all, jboss has a community of developers, and if I can answer some other developer's question, we all benefit. Again, you get what you give. You're in a sea of good developers here. You would cringe in fear at some of our resumes. You have to build trust and respect in this community. We have all already done it and you're not doing a good job of it so far. I have given. Yet it's been ignored. Also, on a side note, I asked several mails ago(not this thread), for a nice, 80 char by 3-5 line description of jboss. A nice, easy to understand description, not filled with too many acronyms and buzz phrases. The content on the jboss website is a little wordy for me to try and condense(I've never been good at marketing). Also, as to the status of the Debianization: I am close to making a public, as it were, release. I've switched both Ean an another internal developer to using my debs. I'm currently working on automatic postgres installation/configuration(few minor tweaks left). apt-get install jboss jboss-jdbc-postgresql, and you'll have a PostgresDS, HypersonicDS, and DefaultDS(that uses postgresql). Without jboss-jdbc-postgresql installed, DefaultDS will use hypersonic. It's all rather slick. I haven't released publically, because as I tweak stuff, upgrades between my internal
