Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[the.n...@gmail.com]

Thank you for your answer, Jesse. I do not consider the solution of 
cross-compiling or running commands on a Linux agent and then commands over 
SSH as being useful. While I cannot speak for the community, this would 
remove any advantage to having Jenkins involved and I suspect that a 
significant number of organizations will drop Jenkins in favour of other 
CD/CI solutions where SSH is the executor mechanism. With that said, the 
timeframe of concern runs through the end of 2023 (at this stage), so if we 
can last that long, we'll probably be fine. On the other side of it, Bill's 
comment above regarding Oracle Java 11 licensing is awkward at best because 
the Jenkins agents are being run in production environments, which are 
problematic for the license and use of Jenkins as a result.

Thanks,
Randall

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 9:34:59 p.m. UTC-4 Jesse Glick wrote:

> Due to the way Jenkins performs remote class loading and allows plugins to 
> implement callables, is is impractical to support Java 8 on agents without 
> forcing Jenkins core and all commonly used plugins to run on 8 as well.
>
> At worst, builds on exotic OSs with poor Java support can still be done by 
> running the Jenkins agent on, say, Linux and having the actual build steps 
> be run via SSH or some similar remote CLI (with support for file transfer 
> like SCP where required). It would even be possible to write a plugin 
> offering a Pipeline step to run commands on a specified host using SSH 
> without requiring an executor slot (Scripted: no `node`; Declarative: 
> `agent none`). You would not get access to rich publisher steps like 
> `recordIssues` but it might be good enough most of the time, especially if 
> you can cross-compile or whatever from Linux and the only things that truly 
> must be done on the special OS are integration tests.
>
> At any rate, so far there is no strong push to drop 8 support so this 
> remains discussion about an indefinite future.
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Jesse Glick]

Due to the way Jenkins performs remote class loading and allows plugins to
implement callables, is is impractical to support Java 8 on agents without
forcing Jenkins core and all commonly used plugins to run on 8 as well.

At worst, builds on exotic OSs with poor Java support can still be done by
running the Jenkins agent on, say, Linux and having the actual build steps
be run via SSH or some similar remote CLI (with support for file transfer
like SCP where required). It would even be possible to write a plugin
offering a Pipeline step to run commands on a specified host using SSH
without requiring an executor slot (Scripted: no `node`; Declarative:
`agent none`). You would not get access to rich publisher steps like
`recordIssues` but it might be good enough most of the time, especially if
you can cross-compile or whatever from Linux and the only things that truly
must be done on the special OS are integration tests.

At any rate, so far there is no strong push to drop 8 support so this
remains discussion about an indefinite future.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Jenkins Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
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RE: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Bill Honaker]

The question to ask is, was that minimum version due to the ‘default’ action of 
javac (that is, -target 11),  or because they required something that doesn’t 
exist in Java 8?

 

It won’t solve all problems but ‘projects’ that are intended to be dependencies 
for other projects would be better if the above question were asked in the 
design phase.  That’s just my $.02US, for what it’s worth.

Bill

 

From: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com  On Behalf 
Of Tim Jacomb
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 2:46 PM
To: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

 

Jetty, Hikari, and opensaml are all projects I’ve come across recently where 
new development has a minimum Java 11 version… there’s probably many others

 

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 16:03, Matt Sicker mailto:boa...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more 
projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most 
people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before they 
hit Jenkins.

Matt Sicker





On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com <mailto:jn...@cloudbees.com>  
mailto:jn...@cloudbees.com> > wrote:

Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :


I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning / 
validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on 
Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the project 
will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.

 

Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any specifics 
from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as early as 
possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has been made and 7 
days before a go live)

>  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many 
> Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the 
> results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.

On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if users 
are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach people to 
inform them and have them participate?

I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for 
Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as 
well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants a 
version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal 3 we 
can probably help you out, and there may be others) 

 

Regards

 

/James

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:00:06 PM UTC+1 bhon...@xid.com 
<mailto:bhon...@xid.com>  wrote:

Mark,

 

Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last couple 
of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should have spent 
more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code walkthrough with 
my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I apologize.

 

Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you for 
sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!

 

And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it  
covered. :-)

 

Bill

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:

Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the thread.  
Comments are inline

 

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:

Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but they also 
use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate strategy for software 
development is to remain on Java 8 for the foreseeable future, primarily due to 
the JDK  11 licensing mentioned above.  They have a corporate support contract 
with Oracle to continue to get Java 8 updates, so support is not an issue for 
them.  Shipping a version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target 
platforms should require much longer than 5 months of advance notice, as those 
customers are on much longer strategic cycles.

 

 

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a version 
of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The proposal 
does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent users from 
running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal does not 
change how 'remoting' operates.

 

 

Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both Java 8 
and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are Enterprise-focused (and 
there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have no plan to do so  this year 
or probably even next.  What was the penetration number above for Java 11, only 
4%?  Expecting a large percentage of your customer base to make this move is 
short-sighted.

 

 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

Jetty, Hikari, and opensaml are all projects I’ve come across recently
where new development has a minimum Java 11 version… there’s probably many
others

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 16:03, Matt Sicker  wrote:

> Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more
> projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most
> people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before
> they hit Jenkins.
>
> Matt Sicker
>
> On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have
> an update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :
>
>
> I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning
> / validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on
> Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the
> project will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.
>
> Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any
> specifics from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as
> early as possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has
> been made and 7 days before a go live)
>
> >  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many
> Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the
> results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.
>
> On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if
> users are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach
> people to inform them and have them participate?
>
> I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for
> Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as
> well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants
> a version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal
> 3 we can probably help you out, and there may be others)
>
> Regards
>
> /James
> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:00:06 PM UTC+1 bhon...@xid.com wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last
>> couple of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should
>> have spent more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code
>> walkthrough with my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I
>> apologize.
>>
>> Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you
>> for sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!
>>
>> And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it
>> covered. :-)
>>
>> Bill
>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the
>>> thread.  Comments are inline
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:
>>>
 Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but
 they also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate
 strategy for software development is to remain on Java 8 for the
 foreseeable future, primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned
 above.  They have a corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to
 get Java 8 updates, so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a
 version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms
 should require much longer than 5 months of advance notice, as those
 customers are on much longer strategic cycles.


>>> I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a
>>> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The
>>> proposal does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent
>>> users from running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal
>>> does not change how 'remoting' operates.
>>>
>>>
>>>
 Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both
 Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are
 Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have
 no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the
 penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large
 percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.


>>> We're not expecting them to make a move.  We're changing the default in
>>> the Jenkins Docker images so that users who choose to use the default
>>> Jenkins Docker images will use Java 11 instead of Java 8.  Users that can't
>>> use Docker images (arm32, ppc64, s390x, ia64, riscv) can continue to use
>>> either Java 8 or Java 11 on their platform.  After the change, users that
>>> are running Docker images can change the name of the image they are using
>>> and that will allow them to continue running with Java 8.  Today, if they
>>> run with `docker run --rm -i -t jenkins/jenkins:lts` and 

RE: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Bill Honaker]

That is indeed inevitable, but one would hop that it is not likely to be 
imminent.  The last 'push' to change support levels, as I recall, was the 
stronger crypto support added in Java 8, which 'encouraged' companies to move 
to 8 in order to remain interoperable.   Especially given the number of plugins 
and frameworks that build on communications, that change was accelerated.

The hard limit on the older system (as there will be no Java 11 JRE on the 'E'  
platform) will disappear when the vendor's support of the 'E' platform  comes 
to an  end in just a few years.  However I can see the same challenge to us all 
when Java 11 is no longer in vogue.

It's limited in scope, however, to the remoting parts of Jenkins.  It's quite 
an easy recommendation to make that the controller should NOT run on NonStop, 
not just for compatibility but for cost reasons (as the NonStop platform is 
often more expensive to run than Linux distros or Windows servers).

So only the remoting packages are affected.  And the choice of, say, SSH 
features needed could reasonably be limited on a 'Node' basis to only those 
that are implemented on the target (for example, key size, authentication 
method, etc.).

Bill

-Original Message-
From: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com  On Behalf 
Of Matt Sicker
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 12:37 PM
To: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

I mean there's a very real chance that regardless of how long Jenkins attempts 
to keep Java 8 compatibility, eventually some dependency it or a key plugin 
uses will stop supporting Java 8 and subsequently publish CVEs that are only 
fixed in the Java 11 version. I don't expect that to happen very soon, but it's 
definitely something to consider in the longer term. The Java 17 release, being 
an LTS one, will encourage some communities to move their base level of Java 
support from Java 8 to 11 (which has already been slowly happening with some 
projects).

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:32 AM Bill Honaker  wrote:
>
> Matt,
>
>
>
> Oracle releases Java to the larger OS platforms (Windows, Linux, MacOS, IOS, 
> Android) directly.  However for other platforms (speaking specifically for 
> NonStop), the vendor has to do the deep port themselves and go through their 
> QA process, etc.  They do this with the support of Oracle (under paid license 
> and support), but it’s never going to be fast.  Java 11 has only been 
> released on NonStop for a few years now (not 10).  And there are actually 2  
> different underlying instruction sets.  The currently-sold versions NonStop 
> (‘X’ and ‘V’) run on Xeon processors or in VMs, and Java 11 exists for those. 
>  However, ‘E’ is an Itanium-based platform that is no longer sold but is 
> still supported for Enterprise customers.  It still has 3 years of support 
> remaining.
>
>
>
> I wouldn’t expect Java 17 to be available for NonStop for another 5-10 years.
>
>
>
> Building Java apps with Java 11 that run on an Java 8 RTE is not difficult at 
> all.  Where you may run into issues is with 3rd party packages.  But in the 
> Open Source world it’s at least theoretical that you have the source and can 
> rebuild the class files with the ability to run on Java 8, if the 
> functionality of the package you need is critical.
>
>
>
> Many of the Enterprise customers using NonStop, while not averse to change 
> (otherwise they wouldn’t be in the devops realm), but they are very skeptical 
> about changing things.  Their business critical apps run for years without an 
> outage.  (They use replication  and managed failover to avoid planned 
> outages, for example).  How to reach them and ask?  Those of us that work 
> with the platform do so with various publications and events.
>
>
>
> But the developers that use tools like git and Jenkins actually WILL be the 
> ones that are impacted if Jenkins won’t run (correctly) because the JRE is at 
> Java 8.
>
>
>
> I’ve heard of other platforms where the story is similar but am not an expert 
> on them.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com  
> On Behalf Of Matt Sicker
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:03 AM
> To: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images
>
>
>
> Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more 
> projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most 
> people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before they 
> hit Jenkins.
>
> Matt Sicker
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
> update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :
>

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Matt Sicker]

I mean there's a very real chance that regardless of how long Jenkins
attempts to keep Java 8 compatibility, eventually some dependency it
or a key plugin uses will stop supporting Java 8 and subsequently
publish CVEs that are only fixed in the Java 11 version. I don't
expect that to happen very soon, but it's definitely something to
consider in the longer term. The Java 17 release, being an LTS one,
will encourage some communities to move their base level of Java
support from Java 8 to 11 (which has already been slowly happening
with some projects).

On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:32 AM Bill Honaker  wrote:
>
> Matt,
>
>
>
> Oracle releases Java to the larger OS platforms (Windows, Linux, MacOS, IOS, 
> Android) directly.  However for other platforms (speaking specifically for 
> NonStop), the vendor has to do the deep port themselves and go through their 
> QA process, etc.  They do this with the support of Oracle (under paid license 
> and support), but it’s never going to be fast.  Java 11 has only been 
> released on NonStop for a few years now (not 10).  And there are actually 2  
> different underlying instruction sets.  The currently-sold versions NonStop 
> (‘X’ and ‘V’) run on Xeon processors or in VMs, and Java 11 exists for those. 
>  However, ‘E’ is an Itanium-based platform that is no longer sold but is 
> still supported for Enterprise customers.  It still has 3 years of support 
> remaining.
>
>
>
> I wouldn’t expect Java 17 to be available for NonStop for another 5-10 years.
>
>
>
> Building Java apps with Java 11 that run on an Java 8 RTE is not difficult at 
> all.  Where you may run into issues is with 3rd party packages.  But in the 
> Open Source world it’s at least theoretical that you have the source and can 
> rebuild the class files with the ability to run on Java 8, if the 
> functionality of the package you need is critical.
>
>
>
> Many of the Enterprise customers using NonStop, while not averse to change 
> (otherwise they wouldn’t be in the devops realm), but they are very skeptical 
> about changing things.  Their business critical apps run for years without an 
> outage.  (They use replication  and managed failover to avoid planned 
> outages, for example).  How to reach them and ask?  Those of us that work 
> with the platform do so with various publications and events.
>
>
>
> But the developers that use tools like git and Jenkins actually WILL be the 
> ones that are impacted if Jenkins won’t run (correctly) because the JRE is at 
> Java 8.
>
>
>
> I’ve heard of other platforms where the story is similar but am not an expert 
> on them.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Matt Sicker
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:03 AM
> To: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images
>
>
>
> Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more 
> projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most 
> people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before they 
> hit Jenkins.
>
> Matt Sicker
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
> update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :
>
>
> I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning / 
> validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on 
> Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the project 
> will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.
>
>
>
> Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any specifics 
> from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as early as 
> possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has been made and 
> 7 days before a go live)
>
> >  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many 
> > Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the 
> > results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.
>
> On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if users 
> are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach people to 
> inform them and have them participate?
>
> I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for 
> Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as 
> well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants a 
> version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal 3 we 
> can probably help you out, and there may be others)
>
>

RE: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Bill Honaker]

Matt,

 

Oracle releases Java to the larger OS platforms (Windows, Linux, MacOS, IOS, 
Android) directly.  However for other platforms (speaking specifically for 
NonStop), the vendor has to do the deep port themselves and go through their QA 
process, etc.  They do this with the support of Oracle (under paid license and 
support), but it’s never going to be fast.  Java 11 has only been released on 
NonStop for a few years now (not 10).  And there are actually 2  different 
underlying instruction sets.  The currently-sold versions NonStop (‘X’ and ‘V’) 
run on Xeon processors or in VMs, and Java 11 exists for those.  However, ‘E’ 
is an Itanium-based platform that is no longer sold but is still supported for 
Enterprise customers.  It still has 3 years of support remaining.  

 

I wouldn’t expect Java 17 to be available for NonStop for another 5-10 years.  

 

Building Java apps with Java 11 that run on an Java 8 RTE is not difficult at 
all.  Where you may run into issues is with 3rd party packages.  But in the 
Open Source world it’s at least theoretical that you have the source and can 
rebuild the class files with the ability to run on Java 8, if the functionality 
of the package you need is critical.

 

Many of the Enterprise customers using NonStop, while not averse to change 
(otherwise they wouldn’t be in the devops realm), but they are very skeptical 
about changing things.  Their business critical apps run for years without an 
outage.  (They use replication  and managed failover to avoid planned outages, 
for example).  How to reach them and ask?  Those of us that work with the 
platform do so with various publications and events. 

 

But the developers that use tools like git and Jenkins actually WILL be the 
ones that are impacted if Jenkins won’t run (correctly) because the JRE is at 
Java 8.

 

I’ve heard of other platforms where the story is similar but am not an expert 
on them.

 

 

From: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com  On Behalf 
Of Matt Sicker
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:03 AM
To: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

 

Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more 
projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most 
people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before they 
hit Jenkins.

Matt Sicker





On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com <mailto:jn...@cloudbees.com>  
mailto:jn...@cloudbees.com> > wrote:

Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :


I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning / 
validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on 
Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the project 
will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.

 

Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any specifics 
from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as early as 
possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has been made and 7 
days before a go live)

>  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many 
> Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the 
> results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.

On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if users 
are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach people to 
inform them and have them participate?

I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for 
Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as 
well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants a 
version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal 3 we 
can probably help you out, and there may be others) 

 

Regards

 

/James

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:00:06 PM UTC+1 bhon...@xid.com 
<mailto:bhon...@xid.com>  wrote:

Mark,

 

Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last couple 
of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should have spent 
more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code walkthrough with 
my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I apologize.

 

Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you for 
sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!

 

And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it  
covered. :-)

 

Bill

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:

Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the thread.  
Comments are inline

 

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:

Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but they also 
use va

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Matt Sicker]

Plus Java 17 comes out really soon. I can imagine that will inspire more 
projects to set Java 11 as a baseline. Definitely start planning since most 
people will probably be affected by some other dependencies well before they 
hit Jenkins.

Matt Sicker

> On Aug 11, 2021, at 09:18, jn...@cloudbees.com  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
> update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :
> 
> I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning / 
> validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on 
> Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the project 
> will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.
> 
> Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any specifics 
> from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as early as 
> possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has been made and 
> 7 days before a go live)
> 
> >  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many 
> > Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the 
> > results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.
> 
> On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if users 
> are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach people to 
> inform them and have them participate?
> 
> I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for 
> Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as 
> well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants a 
> version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal 3 we 
> can probably help you out, and there may be others) 
> 
> Regards
> 
> /James
>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:00:06 PM UTC+1 bhon...@xid.com wrote:
>> Mark,
>> 
>> Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last 
>> couple of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should 
>> have spent more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code 
>> walkthrough with my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I 
>> apologize.
>> 
>> Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you for 
>> sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!
>>  
>> And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it  
>> covered. :-)
>> 
>> Bill
>>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:
>>> Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the 
>>> thread.  Comments are inline
>>> 
 On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:
 Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but they 
 also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate strategy 
 for software development is to remain on Java 8 for the foreseeable 
 future, primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned above.  They have 
 a corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to get Java 8 
 updates, so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a version of 
 Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms should require 
 much longer than 5 months of advance notice, as those customers are on 
 much longer strategic cycles.
 
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a 
>>> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The 
>>> proposal does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent 
>>> users from running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal 
>>> does not change how 'remoting' operates.
>>> 
>>>  
 Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both 
 Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are 
 Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have 
 no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the 
 penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large 
 percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.
 
>>> 
>>> We're not expecting them to make a move.  We're changing the default in the 
>>> Jenkins Docker images so that users who choose to use the default Jenkins 
>>> Docker images will use Java 11 instead of Java 8.  Users that can't use 
>>> Docker images (arm32, ppc64, s390x, ia64, riscv) can continue to use either 
>>> Java 8 or Java 11 on their platform.  After the change, users that are 
>>> running Docker images can change the name of the image they are using and 
>>> that will allow them to continue running with Java 8.  Today, if they run 
>>> with `docker run --rm -i -t jenkins/jenkins:lts` and they have a hard 
>>> requirement for Java 8, they will need to run with `docker run --rm -i -t 
>>> jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8`.
>>> 
 If Jenkins is to 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[jn...@cloudbees.com]

Hi Bill (et al) for those that are running nonstop or the like and have an 
update / test cycle in the order of 6 months :

I would recommend that your customers probably want to start the planning / 
validation to update to Java11 now even if this LTS version still runs on 
Java8.  Java11 is going to happen at some point and I am not sure the 
project will be able to give you all the advance notice you need.

Jenkins has supported Java11 for a while now, and if there are any 
specifics from you that cause it not to run we would like to be aware as 
early as possible (it won;t help you if we find out after the switch has 
been made and 7 days before a go live)

>  Most of your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many 
Enterprise decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the 
results of surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.

On that note - where should we announce surveys / things like this - if 
users are not in the user email / discored or the like how can we reach 
people to inform them and have them participate?

I also work for a company (CloudBees) that has Jenkins at its core for 
Enterprise customers, so we have the statistics from these installations as 
well - so this project is not blind of enterprises (and if a customer wants 
a version of Jenkins that is supported for 9 months rather than the normal 
3 we can probably help you out, and there may be others) 

Regards

/James
On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:00:06 PM UTC+1 bhon...@xid.com wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last 
> couple of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should 
> have spent more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code 
> walkthrough with my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I 
> apologize.
>
> Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you 
> for sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!
>  
> And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it  
> covered. :-)
>
> Bill
> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the 
>> thread.  Comments are inline
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:
>>
>>> Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but 
>>> they also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate 
>>> strategy for software development is to remain on Java 8 for the 
>>> foreseeable future, primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned 
>>> above.  They have a corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to 
>>> get Java 8 updates, so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a 
>>> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms 
>>> should require much longer than 5 months of advance notice, as those 
>>> customers are on much longer strategic cycles.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a 
>> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The 
>> proposal does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent 
>> users from running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal 
>> does not change how 'remoting' operates.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both 
>>> Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are 
>>> Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have 
>>> no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the 
>>> penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large 
>>> percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.
>>>
>>>
>> We're not expecting them to make a move.  We're changing the default in 
>> the Jenkins Docker images so that users who choose to use the default 
>> Jenkins Docker images will use Java 11 instead of Java 8.  Users that can't 
>> use Docker images (arm32, ppc64, s390x, ia64, riscv) can continue to use 
>> either Java 8 or Java 11 on their platform.  After the change, users that 
>> are running Docker images can change the name of the image they are using 
>> and that will allow them to continue running with Java 8.  Today, if they 
>> run with `docker run --rm -i -t jenkins/jenkins:lts` and they have a hard 
>> requirement for Java 8, they will need to run with `docker run --rm -i -t 
>> jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8`.
>>
>> If Jenkins is to retain its preferred position in Enterprise 
>>> environments, this decision should be very carefully reconsidered. Most of 
>>> your customers don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many Enterprise 
>>> decisionmakers don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the results of 
>>> surveys in that platform somewhat questionable.  This is not just a 
>>> question of what is easier for the developers of Jenkins, it's also a 
>>> matter of 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Bill Honaker]

Mark,

Randall had pointed me to this thread.  I admit to only reading the last 
couple of dozen posts and, based only on that, share my concerns.  I should 
have spent more time reading the thread, but I was scheduled to do a code 
walkthrough with my customer and took the 'short' path, for which I 
apologize.

Your clarification does seem 100% the right thing to do, and I thank you 
for sharing it.  That's worth much  more than .02$US!
 
And my customers all never need know I ever had this concern, you had it  
covered. :-)

Bill
On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-5 Mark Waite wrote:

> Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the 
> thread.  Comments are inline
>
> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:
>
>> Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but 
>> they also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate 
>> strategy for software development is to remain on Java 8 for the 
>> foreseeable future, primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned 
>> above.  They have a corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to 
>> get Java 8 updates, so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a 
>> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms 
>> should require much longer than 5 months of advance notice, as those 
>> customers are on much longer strategic cycles.
>>
>>
> I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a 
> version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The 
> proposal does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent 
> users from running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal 
> does not change how 'remoting' operates.
>
>  
>
>> Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both 
>> Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are 
>> Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have 
>> no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the 
>> penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large 
>> percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.
>>
>>
> We're not expecting them to make a move.  We're changing the default in 
> the Jenkins Docker images so that users who choose to use the default 
> Jenkins Docker images will use Java 11 instead of Java 8.  Users that can't 
> use Docker images (arm32, ppc64, s390x, ia64, riscv) can continue to use 
> either Java 8 or Java 11 on their platform.  After the change, users that 
> are running Docker images can change the name of the image they are using 
> and that will allow them to continue running with Java 8.  Today, if they 
> run with `docker run --rm -i -t jenkins/jenkins:lts` and they have a hard 
> requirement for Java 8, they will need to run with `docker run --rm -i -t 
> jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8`.
>
> If Jenkins is to retain its preferred position in Enterprise environments, 
>> this decision should be very carefully reconsidered. Most of your customers 
>> don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many Enterprise decisionmakers 
>> don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the results of surveys in that 
>> platform somewhat questionable.  This is not just a question of what is 
>> easier for the developers of Jenkins, it's also a matter of where Jenkins 
>> (and its remotes) run.
>>
>>
> We're not changing where Jenkins can run with this proposal.
>  
>
>> This is just my .02$US,
>>
>>
> Thanks for sharing!
> Mark Waite
>  
>
>>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

Thanks for sharing your insights.  Great to have participation in the 
thread.  Comments are inline

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-6 bhon wrote:

> Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but they 
> also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate strategy for 
> software development is to remain on Java 8 for the foreseeable future, 
> primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned above.  They have a 
> corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to get Java 8 updates, 
> so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a version of Jenkins that 
> won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms should require much longer 
> than 5 months of advance notice, as those customers are on much longer 
> strategic cycles.
>
>
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we would be shipping a 
version of Jenkins that won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms.  The 
proposal does not remove Java 8 support.  The proposal does not prevent 
users from running agents or controllers or both with Java 8.  The proposal 
does not change how 'remoting' operates.

 

> Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both 
> Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are 
> Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have 
> no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the 
> penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large 
> percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.
>
>
We're not expecting them to make a move.  We're changing the default in the 
Jenkins Docker images so that users who choose to use the default Jenkins 
Docker images will use Java 11 instead of Java 8.  Users that can't use 
Docker images (arm32, ppc64, s390x, ia64, riscv) can continue to use either 
Java 8 or Java 11 on their platform.  After the change, users that are 
running Docker images can change the name of the image they are using and 
that will allow them to continue running with Java 8.  Today, if they run 
with `docker run --rm -i -t jenkins/jenkins:lts` and they have a hard 
requirement for Java 8, they will need to run with `docker run --rm -i -t 
jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8`.

If Jenkins is to retain its preferred position in Enterprise environments, 
> this decision should be very carefully reconsidered. Most of your customers 
> don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many Enterprise decisionmakers 
> don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the results of surveys in that 
> platform somewhat questionable.  This is not just a question of what is 
> easier for the developers of Jenkins, it's also a matter of where Jenkins 
> (and its remotes) run.
>
>
We're not changing where Jenkins can run with this proposal.
 

> This is just my .02$US,
>
>
Thanks for sharing!
Mark Waite
 

>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[the.n...@gmail.com]

I am incredibly relieved!!! Thanks Mark, for the clarification. This would 
have been a sleep-loss situation. I have to hold things together until at 
least December 2023, on this topic.

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 4:37:35 p.m. UTC-4 Mark Waite wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:11 PM the.n...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
>> That's assuming that Docker runs on NonStop, which it doesn't. The key 
>> issue is remoting.jar and whether that can be maintained at 1.8 
>> compatibility. Most groups are using a Controller/Agent architecture using 
>> Docker for the Controller and running the platform JVM for remoting.jar. 
>> There are a few using the jenkins.war, so as long as that is also 1.8 
>> compatible, building using 11 is fine.
>>
>>
> The Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that I've submitted does not remove any 
> support for Java 8.  It changes the default JDK in the Jenkins Docker 
> images from Java 8 to Java 11.  It provides new Docker images with the 
> '-jdk8' suffix for those users that are using Docker but cannot move to 
> Java 11.
>
> Users running the Jenkins war file may use Java 8 or Java 11.  Users 
> running operating installer packages (like rpm, deb, and msi) may use Java 
> 8 or Java 11.
>
> It will be a separate decision in the future that will decide when Jenkins 
> should stop supporting Java 8.
>
> Mark Waite
>  
>
>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:55:02 p.m. UTC-4 Jesse Glick wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Randall Becker  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 when deploying Jenkins into production environments […] using the 
 Oracle JRE is a requirement not an option

>>>
>>> If your environment has specialized needs, including legal ones, you can 
>>> of course build your own Docker images accordingly starting with a WAR 
>>> file. The question is about the default images supported by the Jenkins 
>>> project and deemed suitable for typical purposes. 
>>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to jenkinsci-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/72b102da-b169-4363-9f74-ac34e07ca102n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Bill Honaker]

Similar to Randall (the.n...), I have customers that use NonStop, but they 
also use various distros of Enterprise Linux.  Their corporate strategy for 
software development is to remain on Java 8 for the foreseeable future, 
primarily due to the JDK  11 licensing mentioned above.  They have a 
corporate support contract with Oracle to continue to get Java 8 updates, 
so support is not an issue for them.  Shipping a version of Jenkins that 
won't do 'remoting' on those target platforms should require much longer 
than 5 months of advance notice, as those customers are on much longer 
strategic cycles.

Even though  the newer platforms and releases for NonStop  include both 
Java 8 and Java 11, customers on NonStop and Linux that are 
Enterprise-focused (and there are MANY) haven't installed Java 11 and have 
no plan to do so  this year or probably even next.  What was the 
penetration number above for Java 11, only 4%?  Expecting a large 
percentage of your customer base to make this move is short-sighted.

If Jenkins is to retain its preferred position in Enterprise environments, 
this decision should be very carefully reconsidered. Most of your customers 
don't spend time reviewing this group.  And many Enterprise decisionmakers 
don't participate in Twitter, which leaves the results of surveys in that 
platform somewhat questionable.  This is not just a question of what is 
easier for the developers of Jenkins, it's also a matter of where Jenkins 
(and its remotes) run.

This is just my .02$US,

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:11:30 PM UTC-5 the.n...@gmail.com wrote:

> That's assuming that Docker runs on NonStop, which it doesn't. The key 
> issue is remoting.jar and whether that can be maintained at 1.8 
> compatibility. Most groups are using a Controller/Agent architecture using 
> Docker for the Controller and running the platform JVM for remoting.jar. 
> There are a few using the jenkins.war, so as long as that is also 1.8 
> compatible, building using 11 is fine.
>
> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:55:02 p.m. UTC-4 Jesse Glick wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Randall Becker  wrote:
>>
>>> when deploying Jenkins into production environments […] using the Oracle 
>>> JRE is a requirement not an option
>>>
>>
>> If your environment has specialized needs, including legal ones, you can 
>> of course build your own Docker images accordingly starting with a WAR 
>> file. The question is about the default images supported by the Jenkins 
>> project and deemed suitable for typical purposes. 
>>
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 1:11 PM the.n...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> That's assuming that Docker runs on NonStop, which it doesn't. The key
> issue is remoting.jar and whether that can be maintained at 1.8
> compatibility. Most groups are using a Controller/Agent architecture using
> Docker for the Controller and running the platform JVM for remoting.jar.
> There are a few using the jenkins.war, so as long as that is also 1.8
> compatible, building using 11 is fine.
>
>
The Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that I've submitted does not remove any
support for Java 8.  It changes the default JDK in the Jenkins Docker
images from Java 8 to Java 11.  It provides new Docker images with the
'-jdk8' suffix for those users that are using Docker but cannot move to
Java 11.

Users running the Jenkins war file may use Java 8 or Java 11.  Users
running operating installer packages (like rpm, deb, and msi) may use Java
8 or Java 11.

It will be a separate decision in the future that will decide when Jenkins
should stop supporting Java 8.

Mark Waite


> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:55:02 p.m. UTC-4 Jesse Glick wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Randall Becker  wrote:
>>
>>> when deploying Jenkins into production environments […] using the Oracle
>>> JRE is a requirement not an option
>>>
>>
>> If your environment has specialized needs, including legal ones, you can
>> of course build your own Docker images accordingly starting with a WAR
>> file. The question is about the default images supported by the Jenkins
>> project and deemed suitable for typical purposes.
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Jenkins Developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/72b102da-b169-4363-9f74-ac34e07ca102n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[the.n...@gmail.com]

That's assuming that Docker runs on NonStop, which it doesn't. The key 
issue is remoting.jar and whether that can be maintained at 1.8 
compatibility. Most groups are using a Controller/Agent architecture using 
Docker for the Controller and running the platform JVM for remoting.jar. 
There are a few using the jenkins.war, so as long as that is also 1.8 
compatible, building using 11 is fine.

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 2:55:02 p.m. UTC-4 Jesse Glick wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Randall Becker  wrote:
>
>> when deploying Jenkins into production environments […] using the Oracle 
>> JRE is a requirement not an option
>>
>
> If your environment has specialized needs, including legal ones, you can 
> of course build your own Docker images accordingly starting with a WAR 
> file. The question is about the default images supported by the Jenkins 
> project and deemed suitable for typical purposes. 
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Jesse Glick]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Randall Becker  wrote:

> when deploying Jenkins into production environments […] using the Oracle
> JRE is a requirement not an option
>

If your environment has specialized needs, including legal ones, you can of
course build your own Docker images accordingly starting with a WAR file.
The question is about the default images supported by the Jenkins project
and deemed suitable for typical purposes.

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RE: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Randall Becker]

I understand that, but when deploying Jenkins into production environments in the community (HPE NonStop), using the Oracle JRE is a requirement not an option. As long as the minimum support level is still 1.8, there is no problem, but I cannot deploy Adoptium anything in production. The Docker image, built with Adoptium, may be fine for the Controller, but when remoting.jar is launched, it must use the Oracle builds. Perhaps I have not clarified my question. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: SlideSent: August 4, 2021 2:09 PMTo: jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images We aren't using Oracle's JDK in the images, we are using the Adoptium project's JDK.  On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 11:04 AM the.n...@gmail.com <the.n.e@gmail.com> wrote:I'm sorry I missed this meeting - other obligations. We are stuck on JDK 8 for a variety of reasons, including Oracle's JDK 11 license terms, which are significantly different from JDK 8, and also that JDK 11 is not available on our ia64 platform. How long will JDK 8 builds continue to be available and is there a link I can include for my community for both Docker and standard locations? Thanks,Randall On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 10:43:28 p.m. UTC-4 Mark Waite wrote:I've submitted the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that proposes to switch from JDK 8 to JDK 11 for the Jenkins 2.302.1 LTS release on Aug 25, 2021. Pull request is https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/pull/374/files File content view is: https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/401af5fa324867d30fac61dce91418fdc4a3caa5/jep//README.adoc is the On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 7:51:22 AM UTC-6 Mark Waite wrote:I believe that the plan from the Contributor Summit aligns with Oleg's vote that he cast in advance.  The Platform SIG will meet today and has Java 11 on the agenda for further discussion. Contributor summit notes are recorded in a Google Doc.  The YouTube video of the session is also available. My summary of the proposed plan from the Contributor Summit is: Weekly releaseJenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases switch to Java 11 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:latest, jenkins/jenkins:alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and more.Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases add a Java 8 tag 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release as an escape hatch for users that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:latest-jdk8, jenkins/jenkins:alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:centos7-jdk8LTS releaseJenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases switch to Java 11 with the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:lts, jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and moreJenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases add a Java 8 tag with the September LTS release   as an escape hatch for users that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8, jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:lts-centos7-jdk8A blog post will be provided for the weekly change and an additional blog post and an upgrade guide entry will be provided for the LTS change. A JEP will be submitted that details the proposed transition plan so that we can review the transition plan in greater detail. We'll discuss further and in more detail in the Platform SIG meeting later today. Mark Waite On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-6 Oleg Nenashev wrote:Hi all, Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the Google Doc:Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharingMeeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharingI might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would like to cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through the notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision made by the community. My votes are:+1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions starting from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent Docker images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and whatever other packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already ships Java 11 by default FTR.+1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September LTS. We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update centers starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern Jenkins versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be finalized to make it possible in the toolingDr

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Slide]

We aren't using Oracle's JDK in the images, we are using the Adoptium
project's JDK.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 11:04 AM the.n...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> I'm sorry I missed this meeting - other obligations. We are stuck on JDK 8
> for a variety of reasons, including Oracle's JDK 11 license terms, which
> are significantly different from JDK 8, and also that JDK 11 is not
> available on our ia64 platform. How long will JDK 8 builds continue to be
> available and is there a link I can include for my community for both
> Docker and standard locations?
>
> Thanks,
> Randall
>
> On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 10:43:28 p.m. UTC-4 Mark Waite wrote:
>
>> I've submitted the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that proposes to switch
>> from JDK 8 to JDK 11 for the Jenkins 2.302.1 LTS release on Aug 25, 2021.
>>
>> Pull request is https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/pull/374/files
>>
>> File content view is:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/401af5fa324867d30fac61dce91418fdc4a3caa5/jep//README.adoc
>> is the
>>
>> On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 7:51:22 AM UTC-6 Mark Waite wrote:
>>
>>> I believe that the plan from the Contributor Summit aligns with Oleg's
>>> vote that he cast in advance.  The Platform SIG will meet today and has
>>> Java 11 on the agenda for further discussion.
>>>
>>> Contributor summit notes are recorded in a Google Doc
>>> .
>>> The YouTube video  of the session is also
>>> available.
>>>
>>> My summary of the proposed plan from the Contributor Summit is:
>>>
>>> Weekly release
>>>
>>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases switch to
>>>Java 11 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release.  That includes
>>>jenkins/jenkins:latest, jenkins/jenkins:alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7,
>>>and more.
>>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases add a Java 8
>>>tag 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release as an escape hatch for 
>>> users
>>>that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:latest-jdk8,
>>>jenkins/jenkins:alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:centos7-jdk8
>>>
>>> LTS release
>>>
>>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases switch to Java
>>>11 with the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:lts,
>>>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and more
>>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases add a Java 8 tag
>>>with the September LTS release   as an escape hatch for users that 
>>> require
>>>Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8,
>>>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:lts-centos7-jdk8
>>>
>>> A blog post will be provided for the weekly change and an additional
>>> blog post and an upgrade guide entry will be provided for the LTS change.
>>>
>>> A JEP will be submitted that details the proposed transition plan so
>>> that we can review the transition plan in greater detail.
>>>
>>> We'll discuss further and in more detail in the Platform SIG meeting
>>> later today.
>>>
>>> Mark Waite
>>>
>>> On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-6 Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit
 summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've
 heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike
 Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to
 all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the
 Google Doc:


- Slides:

 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharing
- Meeting notes:

 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharing

 I might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would
 like to cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through
 the notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision
 made by the community. My votes are:

- +1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions
starting from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent
Docker images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and 
 whatever
other packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already
ships Java 11 by default FTR.
- +1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September
LTS. We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update
centers starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern
Jenkins versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin
manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be
finalized to make it possible in 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[the.n...@gmail.com]

I'm sorry I missed this meeting - other obligations. We are stuck on JDK 8 
for a variety of reasons, including Oracle's JDK 11 license terms, which 
are significantly different from JDK 8, and also that JDK 11 is not 
available on our ia64 platform. How long will JDK 8 builds continue to be 
available and is there a link I can include for my community for both 
Docker and standard locations?

Thanks,
Randall

On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 10:43:28 p.m. UTC-4 Mark Waite wrote:

> I've submitted the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that proposes to switch 
> from JDK 8 to JDK 11 for the Jenkins 2.302.1 LTS release on Aug 25, 2021.
>
> Pull request is https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/pull/374/files
>
> File content view is:
>
>
> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/401af5fa324867d30fac61dce91418fdc4a3caa5/jep//README.adoc
>  
> is the 
>
> On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 7:51:22 AM UTC-6 Mark Waite wrote:
>
>> I believe that the plan from the Contributor Summit aligns with Oleg's 
>> vote that he cast in advance.  The Platform SIG will meet today and has 
>> Java 11 on the agenda for further discussion.
>>
>> Contributor summit notes are recorded in a Google Doc 
>> .
>>   
>> The YouTube video  of the session is also 
>> available.
>>
>> My summary of the proposed plan from the Contributor Summit is:
>>
>> Weekly release
>>
>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases switch to Java 
>>11 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release.  That includes 
>>jenkins/jenkins:latest, jenkins/jenkins:alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, 
>>and more.
>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases add a Java 8 
>>tag 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release as an escape hatch for 
>> users 
>>that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:latest-jdk8, 
>>jenkins/jenkins:alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:centos7-jdk8
>>
>> LTS release
>>
>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases switch to Java 11 
>>with the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:lts, 
>>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and more
>>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases add a Java 8 tag 
>>with the September LTS release   as an escape hatch for users that 
>> require 
>>Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8, 
>>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:lts-centos7-jdk8
>>
>> A blog post will be provided for the weekly change and an additional blog 
>> post and an upgrade guide entry will be provided for the LTS change.
>>
>> A JEP will be submitted that details the proposed transition plan so that 
>> we can review the transition plan in greater detail.
>>
>> We'll discuss further and in more detail in the Platform SIG meeting 
>> later today.
>>
>> Mark Waite
>>
>> On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-6 Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit 
>>> summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've 
>>> heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike 
>>> Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to 
>>> all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the 
>>> Google Doc:
>>>
>>>
>>>- Slides: 
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharing
>>>- Meeting notes: 
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> I might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would like 
>>> to cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through the 
>>> notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision 
>>> made by the community. My votes are:
>>>
>>>- +1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions 
>>>starting from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent 
>>>Docker images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and 
>>> whatever 
>>>other packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already 
>>>ships Java 11 by default FTR.
>>>- +1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September 
>>>LTS. We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update 
>>>centers starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern 
>>>Jenkins versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin 
>>>manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be 
>>>finalized to make it possible in the tooling
>>>- Dropping Java 8 support
>>>   - -1 for dropping Java 8 support in the September LTS
>>>   - +0.5 for officially announcing it as deprecated. Needs more 
>>>   planning and 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

I've submitted the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that proposes to switch 
from JDK 8 to JDK 11 for the Jenkins 2.302.1 LTS release on Aug 25, 2021.

Pull request is https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/pull/374/files

File content view is:

https://github.com/jenkinsci/jep/blob/401af5fa324867d30fac61dce91418fdc4a3caa5/jep//README.adoc
 
is the 

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 7:51:22 AM UTC-6 Mark Waite wrote:

> I believe that the plan from the Contributor Summit aligns with Oleg's 
> vote that he cast in advance.  The Platform SIG will meet today and has 
> Java 11 on the agenda for further discussion.
>
> Contributor summit notes are recorded in a Google Doc 
> .
>   
> The YouTube video  of the session is also 
> available.
>
> My summary of the proposed plan from the Contributor Summit is:
>
> Weekly release
>
>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases switch to Java 
>11 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release.  That includes 
>jenkins/jenkins:latest, jenkins/jenkins:alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, 
>and more.
>- Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases add a Java 8 
>tag 4-6 weeks before the September LTS release as an escape hatch for 
> users 
>that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:latest-jdk8, 
>jenkins/jenkins:alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:centos7-jdk8
>
> LTS release
>
>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases switch to Java 11 
>with the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:lts, 
>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and more
>- Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases add a Java 8 tag 
>with the September LTS release   as an escape hatch for users that require 
>Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8, 
>jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:lts-centos7-jdk8
>
> A blog post will be provided for the weekly change and an additional blog 
> post and an upgrade guide entry will be provided for the LTS change.
>
> A JEP will be submitted that details the proposed transition plan so that 
> we can review the transition plan in greater detail.
>
> We'll discuss further and in more detail in the Platform SIG meeting later 
> today.
>
> Mark Waite
>
> On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-6 Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit 
>> summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've 
>> heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike 
>> Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to 
>> all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the 
>> Google Doc:
>>
>>
>>- Slides: 
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharing
>>- Meeting notes: 
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> I might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would like 
>> to cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through the 
>> notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision 
>> made by the community. My votes are:
>>
>>- +1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions 
>>starting from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent 
>>Docker images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and 
>> whatever 
>>other packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already 
>>ships Java 11 by default FTR.
>>- +1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September 
>>LTS. We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update 
>>centers starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern 
>>Jenkins versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin 
>>manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be 
>>finalized to make it possible in the tooling
>>- Dropping Java 8 support
>>   - -1 for dropping Java 8 support in the September LTS
>>   - +0.5 for officially announcing it as deprecated. Needs more 
>>   planning and definition what deprecation actually means
>>   - +1 for declaring an intent to drop support for Java 8 in the 
>>   coming years
>>- Java 17 support:
>>   - +1 for any coordinated efforts on this front, and thanks to all 
>>   contributors. I will be exploring Java 17 in the coming months, but I 
>> might 
>>   be unable to contribute.
>>   - +1 for library updates and non-severe breaking changes if they 
>>   are needed to support Java 17
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Oleg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 12:36:16 AM UTC+2 m...@basilcrow.com wrote:
>>

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

I believe that the plan from the Contributor Summit aligns with Oleg's vote 
that he cast in advance.  The Platform SIG will meet today and has Java 11 
on the agenda for further discussion.

Contributor summit notes are recorded in a Google Doc 
.
  
The YouTube video  of the session is also 
available.

My summary of the proposed plan from the Contributor Summit is:

Weekly release

   - Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases switch to Java 11 
   4-6 weeks before the September LTS release.  That includes 
   jenkins/jenkins:latest, jenkins/jenkins:alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, 
   and more.
   - Jenkins Docker controller images for weekly releases add a Java 8 tag 
   4-6 weeks before the September LTS release as an escape hatch for users 
   that require Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:latest-jdk8, 
   jenkins/jenkins:alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:centos7-jdk8

LTS release

   - Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases switch to Java 11 
   with the September LTS release.  That includes jenkins/jenkins:lts, 
   jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine, jenkins/jenkins:centos7, and more
   - Jenkins Docker controller images for LTS releases add a Java 8 tag 
   with the September LTS release   as an escape hatch for users that require 
   Java 8.  That would be jenkins/jenkins:lts-jdk8, 
   jenkins/jenkins:lts-alpine-jdk8, and jenkins/jenkins:lts-centos7-jdk8

A blog post will be provided for the weekly change and an additional blog 
post and an upgrade guide entry will be provided for the LTS change.

A JEP will be submitted that details the proposed transition plan so that 
we can review the transition plan in greater detail.

We'll discuss further and in more detail in the Platform SIG meeting later 
today.

Mark Waite

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 9:51:42 PM UTC-6 Oleg Nenashev wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit 
> summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've 
> heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike 
> Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to 
> all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the 
> Google Doc:
>
>
>- Slides: 
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharing
>- Meeting notes: 
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would like 
> to cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through the 
> notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision 
> made by the community. My votes are:
>
>- +1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions 
>starting from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent 
>Docker images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and 
> whatever 
>other packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already 
>ships Java 11 by default FTR.
>- +1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September 
>LTS. We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update 
>centers starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern 
>Jenkins versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin 
>manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be 
>finalized to make it possible in the tooling
>- Dropping Java 8 support
>   - -1 for dropping Java 8 support in the September LTS
>   - +0.5 for officially announcing it as deprecated. Needs more 
>   planning and definition what deprecation actually means
>   - +1 for declaring an intent to drop support for Java 8 in the 
>   coming years
>- Java 17 support:
>   - +1 for any coordinated efforts on this front, and thanks to all 
>   contributors. I will be exploring Java 17 in the coming months, but I 
> might 
>   be unable to contribute.
>   - +1 for library updates and non-severe breaking changes if they 
>   are needed to support Java 17
>
> Best regards,
> Oleg
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 12:36:16 AM UTC+2 m...@basilcrow.com wrote:
>
>> Allow me to append myself to the list of developers who would like access 
>> to Java 11 APIs. If we had access to Java 11 APIs, then this 
>> 
>>  
>> (and similar code in a CloudBees-proprietary plugin) could be switched to 
>> the Java Platform's ProcessHandle#pid() (to say nothing of ProcessTree in 
>> Jenkins core), which would mean that we could 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Oleg Nenashev]

Hi all,

Looking forward to see the discussion from the contributor summit 
summarized here. Sadly I missed it due to having another session, but I've 
heard it was a great discussion that resulted in a proposal. Thanks to Mike 
Cirioli and Mark Waite for driving this topic at the summit, and thanks to 
all contributors. Just posting the links shared by Mike and Runxia in the 
Google Doc:


   - Slides: 
   
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1gkUQ0Ha-CRgFvRRpRWUDjbpPr383D0DSywLGAFN-Y/edit?usp=sharing
   - Meeting notes: 
   
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BwllcgX3rmsvwRKIFkmE24g7zHGo8kufcimL0BnWaWE/edit?usp=sharing

I might be unavailable when the decision making happens, so I would like to 
cast my votes in advance. Note that I have not fully went through the 
notes, and might be misaligned. I am happy to support whatever decision 
made by the community. My votes are:

   - +1 for making Java 11 a default in all Jenkins distributions starting 
   from September LTS. It applies to Jenkins controller and agent Docker 
   images. It also applies to Helm chart, Jenkins Operator and whatever other 
   packaging that happens to include Java. Jenkinsfile Runner already ships 
   Java 11 by default FTR.
   - +1 for allowing Java 11 only plugins starting from the September LTS. 
   We have tooling embedded into the Jenkins core and Jenkins update centers 
   starting from LTS releases in 2018 (2.164.x IIRC), so all modern Jenkins 
   versions will be able to properly notify users in the UI Plugin 
   manager. https://github.com/jenkinsci/plugin-pom/pull/133 should be 
   finalized to make it possible in the tooling
   - Dropping Java 8 support
  - -1 for dropping Java 8 support in the September LTS
  - +0.5 for officially announcing it as deprecated. Needs more 
  planning and definition what deprecation actually means
  - +1 for declaring an intent to drop support for Java 8 in the coming 
  years
   - Java 17 support:
  - +1 for any coordinated efforts on this front, and thanks to all 
  contributors. I will be exploring Java 17 in the coming months, but I 
might 
  be unable to contribute.
  - +1 for library updates and non-severe breaking changes if they are 
  needed to support Java 17
   
Best regards,
Oleg




On Friday, June 25, 2021 at 12:36:16 AM UTC+2 m...@basilcrow.com wrote:

> Allow me to append myself to the list of developers who would like access 
> to Java 11 APIs. If we had access to Java 11 APIs, then this 
> 
>  
> (and similar code in a CloudBees-proprietary plugin) could be switched to 
> the Java Platform's ProcessHandle#pid() (to say nothing of ProcessTree in 
> Jenkins core), which would mean that we could get rid of JNR from Jenkins 
> core, which would mean that we could get rid of ASM from Jenkins core, 
> which would eliminate a long-standing pain point in the dependency tree.
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Basil Crow]

Allow me to append myself to the list of developers who would like access
to Java 11 APIs. If we had access to Java 11 APIs, then this

(and similar code in a CloudBees-proprietary plugin) could be switched to
the Java Platform's ProcessHandle#pid() (to say nothing of ProcessTree in
Jenkins core), which would mean that we could get rid of JNR from Jenkins
core, which would mean that we could get rid of ASM from Jenkins core,
which would eliminate a long-standing pain point in the dependency tree.

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

I'm more conservative with my concept for the September plan.  I think we 
should change the base images to Java 11 but don't need to make any 
decision related to Java 8.

We'll discuss further in the Platform SIG meeting today

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 9:58:21 AM UTC-6 Michael Cirioli wrote:

> Adding my $.02 
>
> I am in support of making java11, and would like to help move this 
> forward.  It is great that there is now an admin monitor which should help 
> raise awareness (and appetite) , but what other actionable items need to 
> happen?  
>
> - communicate plan to address remaining java11 issues
> - update docker images to default to java11
> - determine how long java8 will remain supported and communicate
> - (?) make a decision on when we can start targeting `java.level=11`
>
> I am sure there are a number of things i am not thinking of, but since i 
> don't hear any strong objections I'd love to make this happen.  
>
> -mike cirioli
>
>
>
> On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 2:42:07 PM UTC-4 timja...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The docs on Jenkins.Io, dockerhub and in the docker GitHub repo were all 
>> updated to use the jdk11 variant but the latest image tag isn’t changed yet 
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 15:03, Slide  wrote:
>>
>>> I think Mark was looking at doing the migration in September if I 
>>> remember correctly. 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 6:20 AM 'Olblak' via Jenkins Developers <
>>> jenkin...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 What the current state here?
 Looks like the docker image still use java 8 by default but the helm 
 chart switched to java 11

 Should we talk about switching to java11 by default during the 
 contributor summit?

 On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 15:47:41 UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:

> What metric would people consider? 
>
> 0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never 
> hit the above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages) 
>
> Query I used to look:
>
> https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>>> encourage existing users to migrate
>>>
>>
>> Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues 
>> still includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.
>>
>> (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212 
>> , which should only 
>> affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse 
>> proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139 
>>  which affects the 
>> GUI agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for 
>> now remain in core.)
>>
>> -- 
>>
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>> send an email to jenkinsci-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CANfRfr0w-YsTD3odTAJouMGG2QZLRpq85Q6ynp8pzFEk0vJgzg%40mail.gmail.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Michael Cirioli]

Adding my $.02 

I am in support of making java11, and would like to help move this 
forward.  It is great that there is now an admin monitor which should help 
raise awareness (and appetite) , but what other actionable items need to 
happen?  

- communicate plan to address remaining java11 issues
- update docker images to default to java11
- determine how long java8 will remain supported and communicate
- (?) make a decision on when we can start targeting `java.level=11`

I am sure there are a number of things i am not thinking of, but since i 
don't hear any strong objections I'd love to make this happen.  

-mike cirioli



On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 2:42:07 PM UTC-4 timja...@gmail.com wrote:

> The docs on Jenkins.Io, dockerhub and in the docker GitHub repo were all 
> updated to use the jdk11 variant but the latest image tag isn’t changed yet 
>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 15:03, Slide  wrote:
>
>> I think Mark was looking at doing the migration in September if I 
>> remember correctly. 
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 6:20 AM 'Olblak' via Jenkins Developers <
>> jenkin...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What the current state here?
>>> Looks like the docker image still use java 8 by default but the helm 
>>> chart switched to java 11
>>>
>>> Should we talk about switching to java11 by default during the 
>>> contributor summit?
>>>
>>> On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 15:47:41 UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 What metric would people consider? 

 0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never hit 
 the above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages) 

 Query I used to look:

 https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY

 On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  wrote:

> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>
>> encourage existing users to migrate
>>
>
> Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues 
> still includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.
>
> (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212 
> , which should only 
> affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse 
> proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139 
>  which affects the 
> GUI agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for 
> now remain in core.)
>
> -- 
>
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
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>
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
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>  
> 
> .
>
 -- 
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

The docs on Jenkins.Io, dockerhub and in the docker GitHub repo were all
updated to use the jdk11 variant but the latest image tag isn’t changed yet

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 15:03, Slide  wrote:

> I think Mark was looking at doing the migration in September if I remember
> correctly.
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 6:20 AM 'Olblak' via Jenkins Developers <
> jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> What the current state here?
>> Looks like the docker image still use java 8 by default but the helm
>> chart switched to java 11
>>
>> Should we talk about switching to java11 by default during the
>> contributor summit?
>>
>> On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 15:47:41 UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> What metric would people consider?
>>>
>>> 0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never hit
>>> the above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages)
>>>
>>> Query I used to look:
>>>
>>> https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY
>>>
>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> encourage existing users to migrate
>

 Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues
 still includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.

 (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212
 , which should only
 affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse
 proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139
  which affects the GUI
 agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for now
 remain in core.)

 --

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 Groups "Jenkins Developers" group.
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 .

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>
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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Slide]

I think Mark was looking at doing the migration in September if I remember
correctly.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 6:20 AM 'Olblak' via Jenkins Developers <
jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> What the current state here?
> Looks like the docker image still use java 8 by default but the helm chart
> switched to java 11
>
> Should we talk about switching to java11 by default during the contributor
> summit?
>
> On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 15:47:41 UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> What metric would people consider?
>>
>> 0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never hit
>> the above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages)
>>
>> Query I used to look:
>>
>> https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY
>>
>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>>
 encourage existing users to migrate

>>>
>>> Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues
>>> still includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.
>>>
>>> (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212
>>> , which should only
>>> affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse
>>> proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139
>>>  which affects the GUI
>>> agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for now
>>> remain in core.)
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to jenkinsci-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CANfRfr0w-YsTD3odTAJouMGG2QZLRpq85Q6ynp8pzFEk0vJgzg%40mail.gmail.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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> .
>


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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

['Olblak' via Jenkins Developers]

What the current state here?
Looks like the docker image still use java 8 by default but the helm chart 
switched to java 11

Should we talk about switching to java11 by default during the contributor 
summit?

On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 15:47:41 UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:

> What metric would people consider? 
>
> 0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never hit 
> the above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages) 
>
> Query I used to look:
>
> https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>>> encourage existing users to migrate
>>>
>>
>> Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues 
>> still includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.
>>
>> (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212 
>> , which should only 
>> affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse 
>> proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139 
>>  which affects the GUI 
>> agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for now 
>> remain in core.)
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to jenkinsci-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CANfRfr0w-YsTD3odTAJouMGG2QZLRpq85Q6ynp8pzFEk0vJgzg%40mail.gmail.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

What metric would people consider?

0? Few new issues? From personal experience on Java 11 I have never hit the
above issues (apart from illegal reflective access log messages)

Query I used to look:
https://issues.jenkins.io/browse/JENKINS-64831?filter=22940=labels%20in%20(java11-compatibility)%20and%20resolution%20is%20EMPTY

On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 13:31, Jesse Glick  wrote:

> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>
>> encourage existing users to migrate
>>
>
> Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues still
> includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.
>
> (The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212
> , which should only
> affect users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse
> proxy/ingress which I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139
>  which affects the GUI
> agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for now
> remain in core.)
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Jesse Glick]

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 4:10 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> encourage existing users to migrate
>

Feels a bit premature when the list of `java11-compatibility` issues still
includes bugs in core and widely used plugins.

(The only ones I have personal experience with are JENKINS-61212
, which should only affect
users terminating TLS in Jenkins, rather than a reverse proxy/ingress which
I suppose is more customary; and JENKINS-57139
 which affects the GUI
agent installers that would be lightly deprecated in JEP-230 but for now
remain in core.)

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Oleg Nenashev]

Lemme review it tonight. It would be nice to explicitly list compat issues
like JAXB, though we could rather go ahead and fix the plugins instead. If
we could get plugin EOL JEP from Basil accepted, that would be quite easy
to do

On Sun, May 9, 2021, 11:23 Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> Anything specifically need refreshing there?
>
> The upgrade step could possibly be removed as java 11 has been supported
> for a long time at this point
>
> On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 09:49, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>
>> Before we communicate anything to users, I think we should refresh
>> https://www.jenkins.io/doc/administration/requirements/upgrade-java-guidelines/
>> and reference it from admin monitors and changelogs
>>
>> On Sun, May 9, 2021, 10:10 Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>>> I've raised https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/5474 to encourage
>>> existing users to migrate ahead of any deadline.
>>>
>>> Possibly worth getting into LTS as well.
>>>
>>> On Sat, 8 May 2021 at 23:27, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <
>>> jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 That's a little bit of confirmation bias there. "Hey all the people
 that follow us on a social media, do you support new things?" I wouldn't
 really use a social media poll as anything more than "hrm thats 
 interesting"
 Not saying don't upgrade, I have no concerns about upgrades as I do
 everything via docker, but just be careful

 On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 3:04 PM Oleg Nenashev 
 wrote:

>
> FTR Here are results of the Twitter poll in
> https://twitter.com/oleg_nenashev/status/1389808892926996481:
> The results are not aligned with the less than 1% Java 11 adoption in
> Jenkins, but it looks like the move would be supported in the community.
> We still need to document the compatibility and the scope of changes
> though
>
> [image: 117554722-b75f8300-b059-11eb-8570-06897f8863a6.png]
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 9:03:56 AM UTC+2 Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>
>> FTR here is the query for known Java 11 compatibility issues
>> in
>> Jira. Some issues are not a blocker, for example Illegal Reflective 
>> Access
>> which will become a big deal in Java 17.
>>
>> The biggest remaining issue is Removal of JAXB dependencies and
>> replacing them by the JAXB API plugin where required (JENKINS-55944
>> ). It impacts a
>> number of plugins including CppCheck, codesonar, Job Import, etc. 
>> Baptiste
>> Mathus has created a number of pull requests when we were working on the
>> Java 11 support, but not all of them were merged/released AFAICT. Ideally
>> we should do an issue scrub and review the state before deciding on this
>> topic.
>>
>> Time to write up a JEP by the way?
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:21:48 AM UTC+2 Olblak wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am definitely in favor of switching to jdk11 by default, it's
>>> really time to move forward. We have been using it on the Jenkins
>>> infrastructure project for almost a year now without major issues but we
>>> also had to fine-tune the java configuration for java 11.
>>>
>>> That remains a major change with potential breaking changes, so I
>>> would announce it enough in advance so people can already switch to 
>>> jdk11,
>>> and keep the java8 for several stable releases with a deprecation 
>>> warning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Tim Jacomb wrote:
>>>
>>> Defaults and (people not seeing a need to change)
>>>
>>> Shipping an ‘admin monitor’ encouraging people to update would
>>> probably make a difference
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:18, Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>>
>>> It’s just down to defaults I think.
>>>
>>> We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart
>>> to use Java 11 by default
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
>>> including controller and agent Docker images.
>>> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
>>> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, 
>>> and
>>> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
>>> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
>>> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
>>> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force 
>>> users
>>> to migrate immediately.
>>>
>>> IMHO 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

Anything specifically need refreshing there?

The upgrade step could possibly be removed as java 11 has been supported
for a long time at this point

On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 09:49, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:

> Before we communicate anything to users, I think we should refresh
> https://www.jenkins.io/doc/administration/requirements/upgrade-java-guidelines/
> and reference it from admin monitors and changelogs
>
> On Sun, May 9, 2021, 10:10 Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>
>> I've raised https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/5474 to encourage
>> existing users to migrate ahead of any deadline.
>>
>> Possibly worth getting into LTS as well.
>>
>> On Sat, 8 May 2021 at 23:27, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <
>> jenkinsci-dev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's a little bit of confirmation bias there. "Hey all the people that
>>> follow us on a social media, do you support new things?" I wouldn't really
>>> use a social media poll as anything more than "hrm thats interesting"
>>> Not saying don't upgrade, I have no concerns about upgrades as I do
>>> everything via docker, but just be careful
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 3:04 PM Oleg Nenashev 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 FTR Here are results of the Twitter poll in
 https://twitter.com/oleg_nenashev/status/1389808892926996481:
 The results are not aligned with the less than 1% Java 11 adoption in
 Jenkins, but it looks like the move would be supported in the community.
 We still need to document the compatibility and the scope of changes
 though

 [image: 117554722-b75f8300-b059-11eb-8570-06897f8863a6.png]
 On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 9:03:56 AM UTC+2 Oleg Nenashev wrote:

> FTR here is the query for known Java 11 compatibility issues
> in
> Jira. Some issues are not a blocker, for example Illegal Reflective Access
> which will become a big deal in Java 17.
>
> The biggest remaining issue is Removal of JAXB dependencies and
> replacing them by the JAXB API plugin where required (JENKINS-55944
> ). It impacts a
> number of plugins including CppCheck, codesonar, Job Import, etc. Baptiste
> Mathus has created a number of pull requests when we were working on the
> Java 11 support, but not all of them were merged/released AFAICT. Ideally
> we should do an issue scrub and review the state before deciding on this
> topic.
>
> Time to write up a JEP by the way?
>
>
> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:21:48 AM UTC+2 Olblak wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am definitely in favor of switching to jdk11 by default, it's
>> really time to move forward. We have been using it on the Jenkins
>> infrastructure project for almost a year now without major issues but we
>> also had to fine-tune the java configuration for java 11.
>>
>> That remains a major change with potential breaking changes, so I
>> would announce it enough in advance so people can already switch to 
>> jdk11,
>> and keep the java8 for several stable releases with a deprecation 
>> warning.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Tim Jacomb wrote:
>>
>> Defaults and (people not seeing a need to change)
>>
>> Shipping an ‘admin monitor’ encouraging people to update would
>> probably make a difference
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:18, Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>> It’s just down to defaults I think.
>>
>> We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart
>> to use Java 11 by default
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
>> including controller and agent Docker images.
>> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
>> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, 
>> and
>> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
>> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
>> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
>> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users
>> to migrate immediately.
>>
>> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support
>> deprecation and the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>>
>>
>> Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and
>> should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we 
>> shouldn't
>> ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about
>> that first. I wouldn't be surprised 

Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Oleg Nenashev]

FTR here is the query for known Java 11 compatibility issues 
in
 
Jira. Some issues are not a blocker, for example Illegal Reflective Access 
which will become a big deal in Java 17.

The biggest remaining issue is Removal of JAXB dependencies and replacing 
them by the JAXB API plugin where required (JENKINS-55944 
). It impacts a number of 
plugins including CppCheck, codesonar, Job Import, etc. Baptiste Mathus has 
created a number of pull requests when we were working on the Java 11 
support, but not all of them were merged/released AFAICT. Ideally we should 
do an issue scrub and review the state before deciding on this topic.

Time to write up a JEP by the way?


On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:21:48 AM UTC+2 Olblak wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am definitely in favor of switching to jdk11 by default, it's really 
> time to move forward. We have been using it on the Jenkins infrastructure 
> project for almost a year now without major issues but we also had to 
> fine-tune the java configuration for java 11.
>
> That remains a major change with potential breaking changes, so I would 
> announce it enough in advance so people can already switch to jdk11, and 
> keep the java8 for several stable releases with a deprecation warning.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Tim Jacomb wrote:
>
> Defaults and (people not seeing a need to change)
>
> Shipping an ‘admin monitor’ encouraging people to update would probably 
> make a difference 
>
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:18, Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>
> It’s just down to defaults I think.
>
> We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart to 
> use Java 11 by default
>
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>
> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions, 
> including controller and agent Docker images.
> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is 
> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and 
> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example, 
> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the 
> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds 
> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users 
> to migrate immediately.
>
> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and 
> the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>
>
> Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and 
> should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we shouldn't 
> ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about 
> that first. I wouldn't be surprised that there are still some problems to 
> work out but we just have no users yet who would be affected.
>
>
> -- 
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>  
> 
> .
>
>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

['Olblak' via Jenkins Developers]

Hi,

I am definitely in favor of switching to jdk11 by default, it's really time to 
move forward. We have been using it on the Jenkins infrastructure project for 
almost a year now without major issues but we also had to fine-tune the java 
configuration for java 11.

That remains a major change with potential breaking changes, so I would 
announce it enough in advance so people can already switch to jdk11, and keep 
the java8 for several stable releases with a deprecation warning.



On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Tim Jacomb wrote:
> Defaults and (people not seeing a need to change)
> 
> Shipping an ‘admin monitor’ encouraging people to update would probably make 
> a difference 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:18, Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>> It’s just down to defaults I think.
>> 
>> We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart to use 
>> Java 11 by default
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev  
>>> wrote:
 I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions, 
 including controller and agent Docker images.
 At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is 
 premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and 
 the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example, 
 Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the 
 agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds 
 here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users 
 to migrate immediately.
 
 IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and 
 the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>>> 
>>> Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and 
>>> should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we shouldn't 
>>> ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about 
>>> that first. I wouldn't be surprised that there are still some problems to 
>>> work out but we just have no users yet who would be affected.
>>> 
>>> 

>>> -- 
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>>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
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>>>  
>>> .
> 

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

Defaults and (people not seeing a need to change)

Shipping an ‘admin monitor’ encouraging people to update would probably
make a difference

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:18, Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> It’s just down to defaults I think.
>
> We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart to
> use Java 11 by default
>
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
>>> including controller and agent Docker images.
>>> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
>>> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and
>>> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
>>> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
>>> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
>>> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users
>>> to migrate immediately.
>>>
>>> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation
>>> and the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>>>
>>
>> Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and
>> should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we shouldn't
>> ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about
>> that first. I wouldn't be surprised that there are still some problems to
>> work out but we just have no users yet who would be affected.
>>
>> --
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>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

It’s just down to defaults I think.

We’ve seen the numbers rise as we changed the website and helm chart to use
Java 11 by default

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 17:08, Daniel Beck  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev 
> wrote:
>
>> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
>> including controller and agent Docker images.
>> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
>> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and
>> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
>> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
>> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
>> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users
>> to migrate immediately.
>>
>> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation
>> and the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>>
>
> Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and
> should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we shouldn't
> ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about
> that first. I wouldn't be surprised that there are still some problems to
> work out but we just have no users yet who would be affected.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Daniel Beck]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 1:42 AM Oleg Nenashev 
wrote:

> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
> including controller and agent Docker images.
> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and
> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users
> to migrate immediately.
>
> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and
> the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>

Agree; I'd even be more conservative than just six months. We can and
should update the default Docker images to run on JDK 11. But we shouldn't
ignore that just ~0.3% of instances use Java 11, let's do something about
that first. I wouldn't be surprised that there are still some problems to
work out but we just have no users yet who would be affected.

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Matt Sicker]

A transition period using Java 11 Docker images with Java 8
compatibility would be useful IMO.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 22:21, Raihaan Shouhell  wrote:
>
> Perhaps removal of java 8 support should come with a bump in major version 
> number so jenkins 3.x and an announcement ahead of time.
>
> Cheers,
> Raihaan
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 7:42 AM Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>>
>> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions, 
>> including controller and agent Docker images.
>> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is premature. 
>> The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and the 
>> migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example, Maven 
>> Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the agent 
>> images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds here and 
>> there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users to migrate 
>> immediately.
>>
>> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and 
>> the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>>
>> BR, Oleg
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 7:13:17 PM UTC+2 slide wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with dropping java 8. There are some nice features in 11 that would 
>>> be good to use.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 9:11 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:

 We’ve been using it for over a year on java 11 and never hit an issue...

 I would rather drop java 8 as well

 On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:48, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>
> My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough to 
> be the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8 
> support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`, 
> and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily 
> against 8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to 
> consider both platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.
>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Website: http://earl-of-code.com
>>
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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Raihaan Shouhell]

Perhaps removal of java 8 support should come with a bump in major version
number so jenkins 3.x and an announcement ahead of time.

Cheers,
Raihaan

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 7:42 AM Oleg Nenashev  wrote:

> I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions,
> including controller and agent Docker images.
> At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is
> premature. The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and
> the migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example,
> Maven Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the
> agent images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds
> here and there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users
> to migrate immediately.
>
> IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and
> the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.
>
> BR, Oleg
>
> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 7:13:17 PM UTC+2 slide wrote:
>
>> I agree with dropping java 8. There are some nice features in 11 that
>> would be good to use.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 9:11 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>>> We’ve been using it for over a year on java 11 and never hit an issue...
>>>
>>> I would rather drop java 8 as well
>>>
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:48, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>>>
 My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough
 to be the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8
 support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`,
 and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily against
 8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to consider both
 platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.

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 .

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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Oleg Nenashev]

I am in favor of making JDK11 the default in all our distributions, 
including controller and agent Docker images.
At the same time I am afraid that removal of Java 1.8 support is premature. 
The vast majority of Jenkins users still uses this version, and the 
migration to Java 11 won't be seamless in al l cases. For example, Maven 
Plugin will effectively switch project builds to Java 11 once the agent 
images are updated. It will cause unexpected issues in user builds here and 
there. Nothing should be critical, but we should not force users to migrate 
immediately.

IMHO there should be a grace period between Java 8 support deprecation and 
the actual removal. Maybe 6 months or so.

BR, Oleg

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 7:13:17 PM UTC+2 slide wrote:

> I agree with dropping java 8. There are some nice features in 11 that 
> would be good to use.
>
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 9:11 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>
>> We’ve been using it for over a year on java 11 and never hit an issue...
>>
>> I would rather drop java 8 as well
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:48, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>>
>>> My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough to 
>>> be the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8 
>>> support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`, 
>>> and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily against 
>>> 8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to consider both 
>>> platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Website: http://earl-of-code.com
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Slide]

I agree with dropping java 8. There are some nice features in 11 that would
be good to use.

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 9:11 AM Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> We’ve been using it for over a year on java 11 and never hit an issue...
>
> I would rather drop java 8 as well
>
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:48, Jesse Glick  wrote:
>
>> My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough to
>> be the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8
>> support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`,
>> and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily against
>> 8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to consider both
>> platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>


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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Tim Jacomb]

We’ve been using it for over a year on java 11 and never hit an issue...

I would rather drop java 8 as well

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 15:48, Jesse Glick  wrote:

> My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough to
> be the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8
> support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`,
> and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily against
> 8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to consider both
> platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Jenkins Developers" group.
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> email to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Jesse Glick]

My opinion remains that if we believe Java 11 support is solid enough to be
the default, then we may as well keep things simple and drop Java 8
support: start building core and important plugins with `java.level=11`,
and take advantage of its features. Building and testing primarily against
8 while pushing users to run 11, and forcing developers to consider both
platforms in every situation, seems like the worst decision.

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Using JDK 11 instead of JDK 8 in default docker images

[Mark Waite]

The Jenkins docker images are currently using Java 8 unless the image name 
specifically includes 'jdk11' in the name. 

The platform SIG discussed last Friday that we think September 2021 would 
be a good goal to deliver JDK 11 as the standard JDK in those images 
instead of JDK 8.

This change is independent of Java 17 support, but would happen at roughly 
the time when the new Java LTS (Java 17) is expected to be released.  This 
change does not have any dependency on Java 17 and does not assume any 
requirement for support (or non-support) of Java 17.

This thread is intended to start the discussions.  I'd love to have the 
discussions concluded before the June 25, 2021 Jenkins Contributor Summit 
associated with cdCon.

We'd write a blog post announcing the change like we did for the controller 
change from Debian Stretch to Debian Buster.  We would include information 
about the change in the upgrade guide for the September LTS release.

What concerns do you have related to that idea?

The images that would change include:

   - Controller Image - jenkins/jenkins
  - lts
  - lts-centos7
  - centos7
  - lts-centos
  - centos
  - lts-slim
  - slim
  - lts-alpine
  - alpine
  - latest
   - Agent Base Image - jenkins/agent
  - stretch (obsolete)
  - buster
  - alpine
  - latest
   - SSH Agent Image - jenkins/ssh-agent
  - stretch
  - alpine
  - latest (which is an unlabeled buster)
   - Inbound Agent Image - jenkins/inbound-agent
  - alpine
  - latest
   
Mark Waite

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