Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 4:37:33 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: > > So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be > > served, would not harm that? Let's just not close doors. > > Sure. But let's also not spread thin. Do you think it makes sense to > find a middle ground between two proposals? If we just look at the vision statement (which is in your draft not really defined) then yes I think they are extremely close. I see the explicit mention of GUI as a problem, because we already do more than GUI and saying GUI closes the door to any non GUI future technology. On the mission side I think we are further apart, but that's a topic to discuss once the vision is settled. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 08:01:01 Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote: > > ... > > > > > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI > > > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE > > > GUI > > > knowledge? > > > > > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. > > > > Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming > > there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation... > > > > If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see > > ? > I'm not a prophet, I have no clue what will be after graphical interfaces. Hopefully not direct brain interfaces ;-) > But some things we already see today emerging: speech for starters. Another > example are all this Virtual Reality stuff which is not graphical in the > sense of a GUI. Our phones notifies through vibration. We have smart > watches interacting through sensors with the body. All without a GUI. Thanks. I think then we indeed have just different interpretations. Sensors and speech input are to me "just" input devices, like keyboard, mouse, touchpad/screen, trackpoint, joystick, etc. Using them is IMO fully included in the term "GUI". For the output: VR - I agree that "GUI" is typically not used for this. Still, "graphical (user) interfaces", can be interpreted to include it. Speech output - it sure is (very) useful, but I am sure some graphical presentation will stay, and I think the vision should just emphasize the main points (I still think speech output won't become the main user interface for software in general). Vibration alarm - I'd count that under additional peripheral. So, the intention of "graphical user interfaces and applications" is: - we do applications - we do "user interfaces", i.e. desktop for normal computers and also e.g. Plasma Mobile. Do you have a better term ? - "graphical" is there to point out that they typically have a graphical interface, they draw stuff somewhere - point out that our *main* goal is not CLI (- and of course everything supporting it/related to it) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:12:06 Mario Fux wrote: > On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:25:52 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Hallo Ingo, > > Morning Alex and Co > > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:31:09 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > > Hi Ingo, > > > > > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > > ... > > > > > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > > > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > > > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > > > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > > > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > > > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the > > > > mission. > > > > > > Ok. > > > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the > > > vision, or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission > > > combined. > > > > > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the > > > products created by the KDE community. > > > > IOW: it seems to me that our alternate vision draft is more a > > vision+mission ? > > > > If so, I guess the introdcution statement is what is usually called > > "vision" ? > > > > "KDE is a community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide > > graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of > > computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablet, > > smartphones, etc. > > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of > > our users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto." > > As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an > enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway ;-) could/should be > substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less > between the two groups. Yes, the main difference is "software" vs. "software with a GUI". Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:12:06 AM Mario Fux wrote: > As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an > enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway could/should be > substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less > between the two groups. We explicitly re-labeled it "technology" to include icons, wallpapers and other kind of content which might not be software. I am actually very curious to hear what people think of our new draft... :-) Bye, -Riccardo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:25:52 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Hallo Ingo, Morning Alex and Co > On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:31:09 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Hi Ingo, > > > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > ... > > > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. > > > > Ok. > > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the > > vision, or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission > > combined. > > > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the > > products created by the KDE community. > > IOW: it seems to me that our alternate vision draft is more a vision+mission > ? > > If so, I guess the introdcution statement is what is usually called "vision" > ? > > "KDE is a community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide > graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of > computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablet, > smartphones, etc. > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our > users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto." As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway ;-) could/should be substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less between the two groups. Thus we'd have a common vision and could work on the mission(s). > After all the discussions, I guess the manifesto doesn't really have to be > mentioned there, since this is a separate issue ? +1 > Alex Thanks Mario ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote: > ... > > > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI > > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE > > GUI > > knowledge? > > > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. > > Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming > there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation... > > If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ? I'm not a prophet, I have no clue what will be after graphical interfaces. But some things we already see today emerging: speech for starters. Another example are all this Virtual Reality stuff which is not graphical in the sense of a GUI. Our phones notifies through vibration. We have smart watches interacting through sensors with the body. All without a GUI. There is a world beyond GUI. Things relevant to our users. Things relevant to privacy. I want KDE to be there, to give secure and privacy aware solutions also on future interaction patterns and not be limited by saying we only do GUI. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI > knowledge? > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation... If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On 15 February 2016 at 20:40, Alexander Dymowrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehr wrote: > > "World domination through free software." > > > > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but > that > > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, > while > > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? > > I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE > dominating the software that people use on their personal computing > devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool? > No surprise you are :) http://i.imgur.com/f3rJdnN.png /me hides ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehrwrote: > "World domination through free software." > > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE dominating the software that people use on their personal computing devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 2:31:09 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Ok. > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the vision, > or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission combined. > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the > products created by the KDE community. > > How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing > ? It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not > the core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too > generic. (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a > graphical way.) Hi Alex, I'm the maintainer of the application which makes your products visible on the screen. So to say my application is "THE GUI". I'm the one telling you over and over again that I don't want KDE to focus on GUI, to not have that written into the vision. Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI knowledge? Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Feb 15, 2016 5:30 AM, "Alexander Neundorf"wrote: > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > > On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote: > ... > > > Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor > > > attractiveness to KDE as a project. [???] > > Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree > > that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's > > attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see > > our goal and decide to join another community). > > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. "World domination through free software." Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? > How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing ? > It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not the > core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too generic. > (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a graphical way.) "GUI Interfacing"? Alex Spehr ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote: > > We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of > > Freedom, user control and privacy. > > I understand this part clearly. I just say that this goal is too > broadly defined, and, therefore hardly reachable by a single > organization like KDE. I think you misunderstand what (the purpose of) a vision is. Let's look at an example. Oxfam's vision is "a just world without poverty". https://www.oxfam.org/en/our-purpose-and-beliefs This goal is hardly reachable by a single organization like Oxfam. > Most free software communities, including KDE, already work towards > that goal. Exactly. Just as many other NGOs are working towards the same goal as Oxfam. > Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor > attractiveness to KDE as a project. Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see our goal and decide to join another community). I think your concern is that the vision does not function as differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. Regards, Ingo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
> So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be served, > would not harm that? Let's just not close doors. Sure. But let's also not spread thin. Do you think it makes sense to find a middle ground between two proposals? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 07:55:08 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through. > I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision > setting a focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation, > shrinking and death I actually don't consider normal desktop PCs, notebooks, tablets, smartphones, smart watches etc. etc, everything that displays something, all as "past technology" not worth putting effort into it. Even if it may not be the technology we'll have in 20 years, it is IMO still worth putting work into it, e.g. all Android-devices, for the next few years. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Sorry, I think we simply cannot understand one another. We repeatedly expressed the same idea several times. We keep coming up with different words? That's natural. We're at the "draft" stage, right? On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Martin Graesslinwrote: > On Monday, February 8, 2016 5:09:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: >> In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software". >> We do agree with Alex N about that. > > Just follow the last three replies to that thread and try to understand why I > think your answers are contradicting and there is no focus. You are jumping > around. I have a hard time following that and a hard time to understand the > aims of your vision. A vision which is difficult to understand, is not > helpful. > Sorry to say so. > > Cheers > Martin > >> >> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli wrote: >> > On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote: >> >> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software >> >> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future >> >> personal computing device. >> > >> > So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing? What about desktops, >> > web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for >> > example >> > something broader and different: local UIs. >> > >> > Bye, >> > -Riccardo >> >> ___ >> kde-community mailing list >> kde-community@kde.org >> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 11:00:52 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 07:55:08 Martin Graesslin wrote: > ... > > > This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through. > > I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision > > setting a focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation, > > shrinking and death > > I actually don't consider normal desktop PCs, notebooks, tablets, > smartphones, smart watches etc. etc, everything that displays something, > all as "past technology" not worth putting effort into it. And that's not what I said. " I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future" - that doesn't say anything about the present. > > Even if it may not be the technology we'll have in 20 years, it is IMO still > worth putting work into it, e.g. all Android-devices, for the next few > years. So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be served, would not harm that? Let's just not close doors. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hi, thank you for your replies. Unfortunately I don't find these satisfying answers. I asked for explanations why not. This is completely missing. A we should do GUI is no explanation on why we should not be a leader in the next big thing. So please explain in more detail, why you think KDE should not be a leader in future technologies. Please also consider how you want to attract new developers, young students to work on KDE? How are we going to get in new developers if we discourage working on the new shiny stuff everybody wants? That's how we all got into KDE. We worked on the new shiny stuff. How are we going to attract students to work on desktop apps, when they maybe have never seen a desktop? How will they know at all about KDE which is currently non-existing on mobile even? Furthermore how are you convincing the existing developer base to continue to work on KDE software if there is no prospect of leading in the next big thing? How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see a future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing? Cheers Martin On Friday, February 5, 2016 4:54:31 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: > A couple of years ago everybody though people will do all their tasks > through the web browser. That turned out not to be the case. > Applications made a huge comeback to mobile, and now to desktop. I > agree with AlexN that this is where KDE's opportunity lies. Not in a > cloud, not in knowledge management. It's here, in app development, the > area of our expertise. > > PS: not to say we should ignore the cloud. There are myriad of ways of > integrating with cloud services which individual apps should > definitely explore and implement. > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Alexander Neundorfwrote: > > Hi, > > > > ... > > > >> Thus now my question: How will this vision provide us guidance for the > >> next > >> disruption? How will we be able to use this vision to be a leader in the > >> next disruption? Please explain why you think that the vision will help > >> in > >> the next disruption. If you don't think that the vision is for that > >> please > >> also explain why you think that. E.g. if you think we shouldn't care > >> about > >> the next disruption, please explain the reasoning for it. > > > > just answering for myself: for me, KDE actually doesn't have to be the > > leader in the next disruption. For me, it is ambitious enough to become > > the leader in a defined, but still wide area. Also in the future there > > will be the need for local GUI software on normal PCs, notebooks, > > tablets, smartphones, maybe projected interfaces. I want KDE to stay > > focused on that for now, this is where we have expertise, we don't need > > to throw that away. > > Once such local software is not needed anymore (will that happen ? I don't > > know), something will happen with KDE. Either it will fade away, or it > > will > > have slowly shifted by itself into some new direction. As I wrote, this > > draft is not for eternity, it gives a focus for today. > > > > And today, I still see so much work to do for the next few years. I don't > > want us to give up on mobile. I have an awful mix of various apps on my > > personal tablet/smartphones. We as KDE can do so much better than that: > > free software, no ads, consistent user interfaces, reliable quality, etc. > > > > Alex > > > > ___ > > kde-community mailing list > > kde-community@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:00:43 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Saturday, February 06, 2016 19:39:35 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote: > > > Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission > > > statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we > > > should > > > nail down the vision. > > I think the main difference is that it mentions local applications/software > with GUIs explicitely (that's the "focus" ;-) ). I have followed the discussion so far and asked many questions to try to understand where the difference is and where the focus is. My interpretation of the gathered answer is that there is no "focus". The provided answers were contradicting and whenever one went on towards "so you want to have this not in KDE" it was "oh no, we want that". Server software is fine, cloud is fine. Everything seems to be included. I don't see where the focus is you want. I was not able to derive any rule on what would fit into KDE and what not. I was not able to see the focus. What I gathered from the replies looked like that anything coming from within KDE is fine. If I would start writing server software from within KDE it will be fine, but if I would start to work it outside it's not fine to get in. That's what I gathered from the replies. This worries me. From the replies I read I have a feeling that you haven't made up your mind yet what the "focus" means. It gives me a feeling that each project to join would be questioned in detail, whether it matches the perceived "focus". Not very welcoming. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 8, 2016 5:09:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: > In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software". > We do agree with Alex N about that. Just follow the last three replies to that thread and try to understand why I think your answers are contradicting and there is no focus. You are jumping around. I have a hard time following that and a hard time to understand the aims of your vision. A vision which is difficult to understand, is not helpful. Sorry to say so. Cheers Martin > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelliwrote: > > On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote: > >> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software > >> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future > >> personal computing device. > > > > So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing? What about desktops, > > web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for > > example > > something broader and different: local UIs. > > > > Bye, > > -Riccardo > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 8, 2016 1:02:47 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:15 AM, Martin Graesslinwrote: > > why you think KDE should not be a leader in future technologies. > > What are these future technologies? > I think you're just not convinced this is the future, right? Sorry, I dont' have the capabilities to see what will be the future technologies. And I think neither do you. I consider it as likely that we will have a GUI less future, due to emerging technologies which I had already listed in another mail to show that a focus on GUI is not sufficient: * speech recognition * IoT * sensors But anyway I asked a question and would like to see an answer to it. > > > How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see > > a future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing? > > You've already listed several "things". Which ones from them do you > think are most important to work on? This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through. I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision setting a focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation, shrinking and death. I'm asking you why I as a developer should contribute my time for a dieing community? Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:15 AM, Martin Graesslinwrote: > why you think KDE should not be a leader in future technologies. What are these future technologies? Our group thinks that personal computing devices are a big thing. Apps working on these devices are going to be even more important than the devices themselves. It's already the case with phones and tablets. Smartwatches are emerging. More devices will arrive, each requiring a shell/launcher and the apps. KDE can, and should be a leader there. Unlike cloud, services, embedded programming, it is within our area of expertise. I think you're just not convinced this is the future, right? > How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see a > future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing? You've already listed several "things". Which ones from them do you think are most important to work on? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:02:47 Alexander Dymo wrote: > More devices will arrive, each requiring a shell/launcher and the > apps. I think devices without a graphical user interface, driven by speech or sensors will be more and more common. The point really is, are we sure that important future technology will be driven by graphical user interfaces? Some probably will, but I wouldn't make it a deciding aspect for what we accept as KDE projects. The further you look into the future, the less likely this kind of assumption is to hold true. -- sebas Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:12:51 Alexander Dymo wrote: > The "inclusive" vision naturally doesn't have this problem because its > attitude is: "let's have everybody on board". You're misunderstanding this draft then, let me clarify: We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of Freedom, user control and privacy. -- sebas Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software". We do agree with Alex N about that. On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelliwrote: > On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote: >> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software >> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future >> personal computing device. > > So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing? What about desktops, > web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for example > something broader and different: local UIs. > > Bye, > -Riccardo > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
> We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of Freedom, > user control and privacy. I understand this part clearly. I just say that this goal is too broadly defined, and, therefore hardly reachable by a single organization like KDE. Most free software communities, including KDE, already work towards that goal. Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor attractiveness to KDE as a project. What we propose actually talks about the same things: freedom, user control, privacy. But it limits the scope from "all aspects of digital life" to "software that powers up your computing devices". ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Saturday, February 06, 2016 19:39:35 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote: > > Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission > > statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we should > > nail down the vision. I think the main difference is that it mentions local applications/software with GUIs explicitely (that's the "focus" ;-) ). > That exactly was our (the "inclusive vision group") plan. > And it now looks to me that maybe the actual Vision part of the "focused > version" isn't all that different form the other one. That's good :-) > It feels to me that we all agree far more on the vision than the mission. We > all want the same in the end (end-users are in control of their devices and > software, and can keep their privacy), we just prefer different paths > toward that goal (the mission). > > Am I right or am I missing something? Well, a one-sentence vision statement probably always leaves a lot of room for interpretation... I think there's no need to rush. Things are going much better now, that we see what has been written down. :-) So, let's just continue, gather opinions and views, and maybe head towards the mission ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote: > Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission > statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we should > nail down the vision. That exactly was our (the "inclusive vision group") plan. And it now looks to me that maybe the actual Vision part of the "focused version" isn't all that different form the other one. It feels to me that we all agree far more on the vision than the mission. We all want the same in the end (end-users are in control of their devices and software, and can keep their privacy), we just prefer different paths toward that goal (the mission). Am I right or am I missing something? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hi Ingo, On Friday, February 05, 2016 16:43:06 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software > > enthusiasts > > This is a description of what you (and me) think KDE is (or should be), but > not what its goal (vision) is, unless you think that our goal should be to > be "an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software > enthusiasts". > > that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and > > applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device > > spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. > > Providing end-user software for all kinds of devices sounds like a mission > statement to me, i.e. like a plan to reach some goal. Maybe. One result of "Evolve KDE" was that users want a vision or strategy or something. Now, what does that mean... Personally I doubt that they wanted a one.sentence pitch. I think (just guessing), they just want to have some clear goal or direction KDE is working towards. At least that's what I want. I think this draft would serve that purpose. Matthias Ettrichs initial KDE-email certainly didn't match the definition of a vision, but it worked really well. "I have a dream" was also more than one sentence. ;-) Maybe vision+mission belong together ? We could just tweak the opening sentences so they form a proper "vision", and keep the remainder as "mission" ? > It totally lacks the What and Why, i.e. the greater goal. Why do we strive > to provide ...? What is in it for the end-users that they do not get from > any other software vendor? For me this is hard to put in one meaningfull sentence. The first sentence basically says "free GUI software for all devices/OSs" with slightly different words. The "free software enthusiasts" implies that we want to give freedom to the users and developers. Should this be spelled out ? Why are we doing this ? For me, I'm in KDE for two reasons: it is fun, and it gives people freedom, independence from companies for their everyday GUI software needs. What is in it for the users they do not get anywhere else ? One could say that the 4 items relate to 4 different types of users: - "normal users": "manage their 'digital life' using free software no matter on which OS. ..familiar and consistent user experience" - desktop Linux users: we have a great desktop, and we want to continue that - tinkerers or companies working with mobile/embedded Linux: we provide a good (best) free user interface - Qt developers: you get awesome libraries from us, free, stable, etc. Those are very concrete, and also quite different "benefits" for users. > > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of > > our users. > > This sentence seems to hint at a vision I could identify with. Free Software > that protects the users privacy. > > > Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto. > > This sentence isn't really part of a vision or mission statement. It makes > sense to put it somewhere, e.g. on the page which shows our vision (and > mission), but not as part of the vision (or mission). Maybe. it is just a draft, supposed to be changed. :-) > Since Mirko posted a link to this website, I assume that you have read the > list of 30 example vision statements. > https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/ Yes. ... > A possible vision for KDE derived from your draft but being more in line > with the example would be > "KDE enables everyone to make best use of their digital devices without > compromising their privacy." I have to admit, while this certainly matches better the definition of a "vision", and I agree with it, to me, as a boring German engineer, this sentence alone is not useful. When I read it, I think, Ok, that's an introduction, marketing, nothing concrete, now where is the real stuff ? Such a sentence alone doesn't make me excited, nor curious. I have seen enough of those slogans, everybody has one, they are usually "deep", "thought provoking", "engaging", etc., I'm actually tired of those. Yes, we can tweak the first few sentences so they match that format. I think an important point this draft wants to make is to spell out what KDE is trying to achieve in concrete software categories, so a reader understands what we are doing, and doesn't have to guess and assume. As I said above, that's maybe vision+mission ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software > enthusiasts This is a description of what you (and me) think KDE is (or should be), but not what its goal (vision) is, unless you think that our goal should be to be "an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software enthusiasts". > that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and > applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device > spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. Providing end-user software for all kinds of devices sounds like a mission statement to me, i.e. like a plan to reach some goal. It totally lacks the What and Why, i.e. the greater goal. Why do we strive to provide ...? What is in it for the end-users that they do not get from any other software vendor? > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our > users. This sentence seems to hint at a vision I could identify with. Free Software that protects the users privacy. > Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto. This sentence isn't really part of a vision or mission statement. It makes sense to put it somewhere, e.g. on the page which shows our vision (and mission), but not as part of the vision (or mission). Since Mirko posted a link to this website, I assume that you have read the list of 30 example vision statements. https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/ I will cite the vision statement of Creative Commons because they are closest to us: Creative Commons: Our vision is nothing less than realizing the full potential of the Internet — universal access to research and education, full participation in culture — to drive a new era of development, growth, and productivity. As you can see it does not say what Creative Commons is. Neither does it mention any plans how to reach their vision (e.g. by providing licenses). The same is true for the other 29 examples listed on the above page. A possible vision for KDE derived from your draft but being more in line with the example would be "KDE enables everyone to make best use of their digital devices without compromising their privacy." "digital devices" most likely isn't the best term, but I couldn't think of a better concise term for "all types of computers across the device spectrum". Maybe "computing devices"? Regards, Ingo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On donderdag 4 februari 2016 07:45:54 CET Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:05:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and we > > are looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the > > future of KDE. > > I'm sorry to say, but I don't see any vision in your document. What is the > essence I should grasp from reading that document? The one thing which the > community can combine and rally behind it? What I see instead are various > goals/missions which I think would be covered by the vision draft shared by > Lydia. > > So can I have a TLDR of your vision statement? == KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto. === That seems a decent TLDR. In bullet points: * end user focus * open government * FOSS * GUI applications for device spectrum * privacy This would put focus on developing Plasma, the various Applications and the Frameworks. Things like ownCloud, WikiFM, OCS or Kolab are relevant as far as desktop/application integration is concerned, but not core part of the KDE mission. Note that I'm not arguing for or against this, just trying to answer your question. > Cheers > Martin -- Disclaimer: Everything I do and say is based on my view of the world today. I am not responsible for changes in the world, nor my view on it. Everything I say is meant in a positive and friendly way, unless explicitly stated otherwise. find me on blog.jospoortvliet.com ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
[kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hi everyone, as Lydia already wrote earlier today, there have been activities in the KDE community to come up with a vision for the KDE project for the next years, so we can better work together to achieve our goals as a community. Additionally to the team presented by Lydia, an additional team formed beginning of this year and produced an alternative draft for a vision for KDE, which we hope can guide KDE into a successful future. The following people worked on or provided input to this draft: Alexander Dymo Alex Neundorf David Edmundson Jaroslaw Staniek Mirko Böhme Pau Garcia i Quiles Coordinated with the team presented by Lydia we post our draft also today here. The original is at https://community.kde.org/KDE/VisionDraftA . So here we go: KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto. To achieve our goals we work on: 1) A complete set of cross-platform end-user applications We want to offer a complete set of end-user applications running on all major operating systems (Linux, OSX, Windows, Android, etc.). This way we enable end-users to manage their "digital life" using free software no matter on which operating system. The set of applications covers internet, office, communication, multimedia, games and many other. They provide the familiar and consistent KDE user experience while fully integrating into the host operating system. This is reached by following common guidelines and using common technologies. 2) A modern desktop environment for UNIX operating systems We provide a classical desktop environment for computers and devices running Linux or any other UNIX-compatible operating system (as known from KDE 3 and Plasma). It delivers a polished user experience, is easy to use and flexible. It contains the essentials of a desktop and basic applications like a file manager and a web browser, etc.. 3) A user interface for mobile/embedded Linux systems We want KDE to offer the most advanced "desktop" for "mobile Linux", like tablets, smartphones or embedded systems. 4) A cross-platform Software Development Kit We support the development of end-user desktop and applications by developing reusable software frameworks. We build on top of the cross-platform Qt framework and provide an extensive set of add-on libraries and components to do the tasks above. Our libraries are cross-platform, stable, and provide source and binary compatibility guarantees. They are licensed under Free Software licenses which allow commercial use. -- This probably doesn't fit the definition of what a "vision statement" should be, it's too long for that, maybe it's a mixture of a vision and a mission, but more importantly, after reading it, people (hopefully) know what KDE is about. So, now that you have seen this draft and the one posted by Lydia, make up your mind about where you would like to see KDE go in the next years for yourself. We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and we are looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the future of KDE. Let's make KDE rule the world of free GUI software ! :-) Alex D, Alex N., Jaroslaw, Mirko ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hi Adriaan, On Wednesday, February 03, 2016 23:18:26 Adriaan de Groot wrote: > On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Let's make KDE rule the world of free GUI software ! > > I'll be a little flippant and say that this is a second vision, different > from the first one presented in your mail. Well, maybe. ;-) I think it says about the same (just very terse and unclear). > But on-topic: Just a quick question: the paragraphs between - lines is > the vision-statement from this vision-group? The text on the wiki-page > https://community.kde.org/KDE/VisionDraftA is slightly longer, with an > introduction as well. The "this document..." introduction didn't make sense to me as part of the email. It basically duplicated what the rest of the mail said already. > I'm asking this because I want to know what I should put into my > vision-ometer (a contraption that measures the visionariness) and what > (same) text I should compare to any other vision-statement that is > proposed. I don't know. To me, having a one-sentence vision statement alone is not overly important, I'm more interested in having a document which tells people what KDE is trying to achieve. That may need more than one sentence. Having said that, the "core" is the first sentence ("KDE is"). The four items basically just go into more details to explain what that "core" statement is supposed to cover. The whole thing is just a first, rough draft, waiting for feedback, suggestions, etc. If you think this is not a vision, but a vision+mission, or something else, say so. :-) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:05:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and we are > looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the future of > KDE. I'm sorry to say, but I don't see any vision in your document. What is the essence I should grasp from reading that document? The one thing which the community can combine and rally behind it? What I see instead are various goals/missions which I think would be covered by the vision draft shared by Lydia. So can I have a TLDR of your vision statement? Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community