KR> Wing skin instructions
Robert Kidd. I have scanned the wing skin instructions. I need your email address to send them to u Garry Cowles Sent from my iPad ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
KR> WING SKIN
Also the Bellanca had plywood covered wings Joe. E. Wallace jwallacep51 at gmail.com On Mar 6, 2014, at 2:49, Maureen Laverick wrote: > If you are thinking of plywood skins have a look at GAZAILE 2 on google > Don laverick
KR> WING SKIN
If you are thinking of plywood skins have a look at GAZAILE 2 on google Don laverick > From: brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com > To: krnet at list.krnet.org > Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:45:04 -0700 > Subject: Re: KR> WING SKIN > > I had come to the conclusion very long ago that the main reason that > there are a million boat stage KRs for sale or wasting away in the > corners of shops everywhere is that people are afraid of the glass work. > They do the wood part because it is familiar to them then as soon as it > comes time to work with foam and glass they overthink things and are > afraid to start. It is really a shame because the glass work is as > easy, or easier, than the wood work and the majority of people can do a > great job with no prior experience. There might be three or four times > as many KRs flying if it were not for this self-inflicted stumbling > block. > > The thin plywood skin is intriguing to me because someone that has built > the boat would probably keep right on building once it got to that stage > and the way thin plywood bends I think you could very likely get a > perfect looking skin very easily without the filling and sanding. This > could be done with a foam core or with built-up or plywood ribs. Many > other planes use plywood skins on ribs. Not sure if any use plywood on > foam or not. I would think that ribs would probably be better. > > > Original Message > Subject: KR> WING SKIN > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner > Date: Tue, March 04, 2014 6:48 pm > To: KRnet > > > Someone famous once said " the only thing we have to fear is fear > itself". And so it goes with fiberglass. The only thing you have to > fear is developing an allergy to the resin. > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options
KR> WING SKIN
Bonding aluminium is a black art. Gary Morgan has already pretty well built an aluminium KR. He now sells them here in Au. Peter Bancks On 04/03/14 23:03, ol' weirdo wrote: > >From a fringer. > > Has anyone skinned the wing of his KR with aluminum sheet glued to the foam > the way titan build their wings? > > Bill Weir > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
Thanks Larry. That's what I've been doing and I'm sure you're right. But the familiar (wood and aluminum) is still a temptation. TK On 5 March 2014 11:48, Larry&Sallie Flesner wrote: > Someone famous once said " the only thing we have to fear is fear itself". > And so it goes with fiberglass. The only thing you have to fear is > developing an allergy to the resin. > > Larry Flesner > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
Thanks Adam. My concern with fibreglass is not the strength of the resulting structure but my ability to achieve a high quality finish in a reasonable timeframe and with a reasonable amount of effort using fibreglass as opposed to alternative materials. I'm confident I can achieve a good finish with wood, aluminum or fabric, but since I've never tried fibreglass I don't have the same confidence. Access to an EAA (or any other) class is a bit tricky in Oz - there aren't many and if you're not in a city you're out of luck. Easiest way here is to learn from other builders. Nearest one I know of (that's not building an RV) is about 70 miles away. That's why KRNet is so valuable to guys like me. Cheers, Tony On 5 March 2014 11:11, Adam Tippin wrote: > Tony please allow me to put your mind at ease. > I went through A&P school and in that class we had a composite section. > We all built individual composition wing sections. 12"x18" ( no vacuum > bagging ). > I can assure you that ( like every school) there were a few less than > desirable students. > During this section even they excelled. > To prove the point we took the worst specimen and asked Tiny if he would be > so kind as to stress test it for us. We all gather around and knew it would > crush. > Mind you, that we used plain jane Styrofoam ( like the coffee cup stuff). > It held up to Tiny ( one foot all 365 lbs). Then he jumped on it trying to > crush it. The student received his first 100%. > Also there are a lot of comp classes you can sign up for through EAA . > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
The strength of the 100% bond between the glass and the spar may not be required, although I'm certainly not qualified to determine how much less (if any) strength would be sufficient. I suspect there are numerous builders who are like me - a bit scared of fibreglass due to total inexperience with it. Wing skins, where the quality of the work is important for both structural and aesthetic reasons strike me as a less than ideal place to learn. You say it's simple, and maybe you're right, but from the perspective of an absolute beginner it seems to me there could be a lot more work in getting it just so than some of the alternatives. Thus the attraction of materials like ply or aluminum. Cheers, Tony On 5 March 2014 10:15, Larry&Sallie Flesner wrote: > At 03:53 PM 3/4/2014, you wrote: > >> Well, duh, I just "assumed" everyone would attach the ribs to the spars.? >> Glued, riveted, screwed, etc. >> > > + > I'm not sure how you calculate / test to see if the ribs to spar > connection is as strong as the 100% bond between the glass and the spar, > top and bottom, front and rear spar. I'm also not sure why anyone would > want to complicate such a simple building process as foam / glass to wood > spars. I really doubt if an aluminum wing would save any weight over a > well build foam / glass lay up either. IMHO, and it's only an > opinion. > > Larry Flesner > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
On 3/4/2014 8:19 PM, Mark Langford wrote: > Tony King wrote: > >>> > > I think a lot of the fear and loathing of fiberglass construction > arises from people's experience with polyester resin from the auto > parts or department store. That stuff stinks, has a very short time > to cure, and is very sensitive to warm temperatures, such as your > hands. If you mix up any usable quantity, it starts setting before > you even get it squeegeed into the fabric, and then you've got a > sticky smelly mess on your hands. You can't even let go of it because > it's stuck to your hands and is unmanageable. I suspect we all > learned about "fiberglass layups" like this, but today's aero-type > epoxies have working times like 30 minutes, and even then, you have > plenty of warning that you need to be finishing up or moving further > on. After a while you learn that for big stuff like wings, you need > to do it in the cool of the day to give yourself plenty of working > time. No biggie. > > > Mark Langford > ML at N56ML.com > website at http://www.N56ML.com > > Aircraft Spruce and Wicks sold a practice Fibreglass try out kit. > Cheep enough to have a go at it. Check with them and go for it, Virg > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to > change options >
KR> WING SKIN
I had come to the conclusion very long ago that the main reason that there are a million boat stage KRs for sale or wasting away in the corners of shops everywhere is that people are afraid of the glass work. They do the wood part because it is familiar to them then as soon as it comes time to work with foam and glass they overthink things and are afraid to start. It is really a shame because the glass work is as easy, or easier, than the wood work and the majority of people can do a great job with no prior experience. There might be three or four times as many KRs flying if it were not for this self-inflicted stumbling block. The thin plywood skin is intriguing to me because someone that has built the boat would probably keep right on building once it got to that stage and the way thin plywood bends I think you could very likely get a perfect looking skin very easily without the filling and sanding. This could be done with a foam core or with built-up or plywood ribs. Many other planes use plywood skins on ribs. Not sure if any use plywood on foam or not. I would think that ribs would probably be better. Original Message Subject: KR> WING SKIN From: Larry&Sallie Flesner List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Tue, March 04, 2014 6:48 pm To: KRnet Someone famous once said " the only thing we have to fear is fear itself". And so it goes with fiberglass. The only thing you have to fear is developing an allergy to the resin.
KR> WING SKIN
? Tony King said My concern with fibreglass is... ? Don't fret, get a practice kit and get your surgical gloves dirty. COMPOSITE MATERIALS PRACTICE KIT http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/practicekit.php?clickkey=56498
KR> WING SKIN
Tony please allow me to put your mind at ease. I went through A&P school and in that class we had a composite section. We all built individual composition wing sections. 12"x18" ( no vacuum bagging ). I can assure you that ( like every school) there were a few less than desirable students. During this section even they excelled. To prove the point we took the worst specimen and asked Tiny if he would be so kind as to stress test it for us. We all gather around and knew it would crush. Mind you, that we used plain jane Styrofoam ( like the coffee cup stuff). It held up to Tiny ( one foot all 365 lbs). Then he jumped on it trying to crush it. The student received his first 100%. Also there are a lot of comp classes you can sign up for through EAA .
KR> WING SKIN
At 06:49 PM 3/4/2014, you wrote: >I suspect there are numerous builders who are like me - a bit scared of >fibreglass due to total inexperience with it. Wing skins, where the >quality of the work is important for both structural and aesthetic reasons >strike me as a less than ideal place to learn. Tony, and other beginners, Someone famous once said " the only thing we have to fear is fear itself". And so it goes with fiberglass. The only thing you have to fear is developing an allergy to the resin. I had zero experience with glassing, or building an airplane for that matter, when I started. You won't start with the wings and by the time you get that far it will be old hat. Learning by doing will happen rather quickly. Read up on glassing and develop a knowledge base. Watch a few builders, try some test layups, watch a video, the info is out there. The only real "trick" to a good layup, if there really is a trick, is to get the underlying foam done right. If the foam is done right, the layup practically takes care of itself, you merely go through the motions. You develop a great knowledge base and a great deal of experience when building an airplane. Don't concern yourself with the entire project at once but concentrate on one thing at a time. In no time at all you'll look back and say " that really wasn't all that hard". Larry Flesner
KR> WING SKIN
Tony King wrote: >>You say it's simple, and maybe you're right, but from the perspective of an absolute beginner it seems to me there could be a lot more work in getting it just so than some of the alternatives. Thus the attraction of materials like ply or aluminum.<< I think a lot of the fear and loathing of fiberglass construction arises from people's experience with polyester resin from the auto parts or department store. That stuff stinks, has a very short time to cure, and is very sensitive to warm temperatures, such as your hands. If you mix up any usable quantity, it starts setting before you even get it squeegeed into the fabric, and then you've got a sticky smelly mess on your hands. You can't even let go of it because it's stuck to your hands and is unmanageable. I suspect we all learned about "fiberglass layups" like this, but today's aero-type epoxies have working times like 30 minutes, and even then, you have plenty of warning that you need to be finishing up or moving further on. After a while you learn that for big stuff like wings, you need to do it in the cool of the day to give yourself plenty of working time. No biggie. Repairing glass is child's play compared to something like aluminum. A few minutes of cutting, patching with micro or flox, and then overlaying with glass is simple and when you're done, nobody can tell it. The repair part of aluminum can be done a little quicker, but you'll never end up with a repair that is "just so"...it will be likely be obvious forever as a "patch". Having said that, I do have some very thin plywood for experimentation on my next plane... Mark Langford ML at N56ML.com website at http://www.N56ML.com
KR> WING SKIN
At 03:53 PM 3/4/2014, you wrote: >Well, duh, I just "assumed" everyone would >attach the ribs to the spars.? Glued, riveted, screwed, etc. + I'm not sure how you calculate / test to see if the ribs to spar connection is as strong as the 100% bond between the glass and the spar, top and bottom, front and rear spar. I'm also not sure why anyone would want to complicate such a simple building process as foam / glass to wood spars. I really doubt if an aluminum wing would save any weight over a well build foam / glass lay up either. IMHO, and it's only an opinion. Larry Flesner
KR> WING SKIN
Bill I look forward to hearing replies. I am considering the weight difference of possibly using aluminum for ribs and skins? Couldn't someone make one piece ribs that would slide onto the spars then rivet sheet skins onto them? Bob Frazeysburg Ohio On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:03 AM, ol' weirdo wrote: > From a fringer. > > Has anyone skinned the wing of his KR with aluminum sheet glued to the foam > the way titan build their wings? > > Bill Weir > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
I would think that would be a challenge on tapered wings...it would probably tend to pucker. One thing i am curious about would be the finish...in the aircraft industry, bonding aluminum to aluminum usually means bare aluminum with various cleaning and etching processes...if the bond fails you have a really bad problem with corrosion. This bond wouldn't need to be that good so you probably prime the panel first. https://sites.google.com/site/mykr2stretch/ https://sites.google.com/site/mykr2stretch/parts-for-sale On Mar 4, 2014 7:04 AM, "ol' weirdo" wrote: > From a fringer. > > Has anyone skinned the wing of his KR with aluminum sheet glued to the foam > the way titan build their wings? > > Bill Weir > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> WING SKIN
Bob, Sure, why not?? Form your ribs, slide them onto the spars and rivet the skins onto the ribs. Ron From: Robert Boyd To: KRnet Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:13 AM Subject: Re: KR> WING SKIN Bill I look forward to hearing replies. I am considering the weight difference of possibly using aluminum for ribs and skins? Couldn't someone make one piece ribs that would slide onto the spars then rivet sheet skins onto them? Bob Frazeysburg Ohio On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:03 AM, ol' weirdo wrote: > From a fringer. > > Has anyone skinned the wing of his KR with aluminum sheet glued to the foam > the way titan build their wings? > > Bill Weir > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
KR> WING SKIN
>From a fringer. Has anyone skinned the wing of his KR with aluminum sheet glued to the foam the way titan build their wings? Bill Weir
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Netters, One additional attribute of great benifit is that Divinicell is imprevious to fuel. I used it extensively in the production of the Super Pulsar 100 kit airplane. Especially benificial when building wet wings. Solly Melyon-Mgr AeroMax Aviation, LLC www.aeromaxaviation.com 229.241.1175 --- On Sun, 10/19/08, ColdLake-Tim wrote: From: ColdLake-Tim Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES To: "KRnet" List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 2:37 AM Divinycell also withstands compression much better than ureathane> bad wack/bump, urethane can compress (dent) more readily and perhaps cause skin delamination. Dinveycell can also be post cured at higher temps. CL-Tim ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Divinycell also withstands compression much better than ureathane> bad wack/bump, urethane can compress (dent) more readily and perhaps cause skin delamination. Dinveycell can also be post cured at higher temps. CL-Tim
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Since the KR2 that I have is not really suited to be a 2 person plane in my case, I'm just going to reconfigure it as a single seater. Now I can afford a bit of extra weight in the wings, so the H series foam density isn't as troubling to me. I believe using the H60 series sounds like the best course to take. I appreciate you steering me in this direction! Glenn - Original Message - From: "Larry H." To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 10:32 AM Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES I just realized in looking at the spec sheet again comparing the H to the HT. The H has a minimum forming temperature of +200 degrees F and the HT has a minimum of +280 degrees F. The H 30 has a 2.3lb density, H 45 has a 3lb density (thats per cubic foot) and the H 60 has a 4lb density. Larry H. From: Martek Mississippi Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Larry, I looked at the Wicks and Aircraft Spruce online catalogs. They carry the H but not the HT series. ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
I just realized in looking at the spec sheet again comparing the H to the HT. The H has a minimum forming temperature of +200 degrees F and the HT has a minimum of +280 degrees F. The H 30 has a 2.3lb density, H 45 has a 3lb density (thats per cubic foot) and the H 60 has a 4lb density. Larry H. From: Martek Mississippi Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Larry, I looked at the Wicks and Aircraft Spruce online catalogs. They carry the H but not the HT series.
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Glenn, I have used the H series and it is very similar to the HT. The compressive and shear strengths are similar or even a little more according to the spec sheet I have. The H60 has a 109psi compression strength and 87psi shear strength. It may be the same thing in reality but if it has a T beside the H then it costs more money I would imagine !! Larry H. From: Martek Mississippi Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Larry, I looked at the Wicks and Aircraft Spruce online catalogs. They carry the H but not the HT series. The specs do seem close enough between the HT50 and H60 series to make the H60 series another one to use, since it is available easily, would you agree? DIAB products also recommends the sandwich concept for marked improvements in rigidity, as their numbers attest to. Everyone should look at their web site and specifications. Glenn Martin N1333A Biloxi, MS
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Larry, I looked at the Wicks and Aircraft Spruce online catalogs. They carry the H but not the HT series. The specs do seem close enough between the HT50 and H60 series to make the H60 series another one to use, since it is available easily, would you agree? DIAB products also recommends the sandwich concept for marked improvements in rigidity, as their numbers attest to. Everyone should look at their web site and specifications. Glenn Martin N1333A Biloxi, MS - Original Message - From: "Larry H." To: "KRnet" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:21 AM Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Glenn, Wicks and Aircraft Spruce usually carry these foams. The company that makes or distributes it used to be in Grand Prairie, Texas. The original Klegicell foam which is the same thing or type of foam came from Europe, Sweden I think it was. One thing you can do with these types of foam is heat it up (like with a heat gun, keep gun moving though or you will begin to melt the foam) bow or bend it around something and let it cool off while holding it in position and it will retain a lot of the shape you desire. If needed get someone to help with the heating while you hold it in the bowed position. I am talking about your turtle back for example or the slight curve to a wing surface. You will be able to make the wing surfaces without heat though, the foam will make that curve easy enough. (Not the leading edges though) You can make your wings the way others have done it including the premolded Diehl skins. Make your ribs out of this same foam, just make them dimensionally less than the thickness of the foam you choose, put a light weight layer of cloth on the inside if you wish but probably not necessary, glue in place with micro or flox mixture then cover the surface with your cloth of choice, fiberglass, carbon fibre, or ? (dynel) : ) . Larry H. From: Martek Mississippi To: KRnet Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:17:10 PM Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Thank you! This sounds like what I'm looking for to deal with my concerns. Where can I purchase this? Glenn Martin N1333A biloxi, MS ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Glenn, Wicks and Aircraft Spruce usually carry these foams. The company that makes or distributes it used to be in Grand Prairie, Texas. The original Klegicell foam which is the same thing or type of foam came from Europe, Sweden I think it was. One thing you can do with these types of foam is heat it up (like with a heat gun, keep gun moving though or you will begin to melt the foam) bow or bend it around something and let it cool off while holding it in position and it will retain a lot of the shape you desire. If needed get someone to help with the heating while you hold it in the bowed position. I am talking about your turtle back for example or the slight curve to a wing surface. You will be able to make the wing surfaces without heat though, the foam will make that curve easy enough. (Not the leading edges though) You can make your wings the way others have done it including the premolded Diehl skins. Make your ribs out of this same foam, just make them dimensionally less than the thickness of the foam you choose, put a light weight layer of cloth on the inside if you wish but probably not necessary, glue in place with micro or flox mixture then cover the surface with your cloth of choice, fiberglass, carbon fibre, or ? (dynel) : ) . Larry H. From: Martek Mississippi To: KRnet Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:17:10 PM Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES Thank you! This sounds like what I'm looking for to deal with my concerns. Where can I purchase this? Glenn Martin N1333A biloxi, MS ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Thank you! This sounds like what I'm looking for to deal with my concerns. Where can I purchase this? Glenn Martin N1333A biloxi, MS
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
Larry Howell wrote: > If you are so inclined to try Divinycell as a core for your wing surfaces, > Divinycell's HT series was developed for aircraft cores. You could choose > their HT50 which is 3.1 lb/ft3.. It has a 100psi compressive strength, 73 > psi shear strength etc. Having thought that carbon fiber skins would eliminate bubbles, and now that I've had Divinycell in my hands, I'd say it's certainly worth a try. I've heard nothing but good stuff about it. The tensile strength of urethane foam is just about non-existent. For those who don't know it, Larry Howell's a professional composite guy... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL website: www.n5...@hiwaay.net email: N56ML at hiwaay.net
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement/DIVINYCELL FOAM CORES
How do those idea sound to my fellow netters, Glenn Martin Glenn, I am with Mark L, lots of time and weight. Sounds like you need to find some honeycomb cores for your wings if you want to go to this much trouble. The honeycomb would accomplish both things for you. The best preference for you in my opinion would be to use 3/16th or 1/4th thick Divinycell foam cores for your wing surfaces. It is light weight, has very high shear strength, and compressive strength compared to urethane foam. You could put a layer of cloth on the interior surface of it but you don't really need to do that with Divinycell foam. I have mentioned this before. I took a piece of urethane foam, Home Depot foam that some have used, and a piece of Divinycell foam that I have used building a Long Eze and a Defiant. I laid up a single layer of bidirectional cloth on all three. The urethane and HomeDepot insulation rigid foam both are extremely weak in shear strength. I was able to take a hold of the edge of the cured glass cloth and rip it right off of the foam with no effort at all. I could not tear the cloth off of the Divinycell foam. The difference in the 3 is MASSIVE!!! It does cost more to purchase Divinycell foam as compared to urethane but it will also cost a lot of money for the carbon fibre you are talking about laying down in the V-grooves. If you are so inclined to try Divinycell as a core for your wing surfaces, Divinycell's HT series was developed for aircraft cores. You could choose their HT50 which is 3.1 lb/ft3.. It has a 100psi compressive strength, 73 psi shear strength etc. You may have figured out by now that I am a huge fan of Divinycell foams. I have used and tested a lot of different kinds of foams in an attempt to find a cheap strong foam but I have given up and submitted to Divinycell, there just is Nothing better right now!! Get a small piece and test it for yourself as compared to other types of foam then you will agree with me. Just my opinion of course. Larry H.
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement
Sounds like more weight, and more work, for very little benefit. CF layups would be plenty strong. I built my elevator with CF, and it can chop wood. Ron Smith KR2SSXL Buckeye Arizona mercedesm...@yahoo.com http://ronsmith.myphotoalbum.com/albums.php --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Martek Mississippi wrote: From: Martek Mississippi Subject: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement To: "KRnet" List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:08 PM I have noticed on the KR2 I just purchased that the wings are not as stout as I would like. When I moved the wings to the storage area I could hear the foam under the fiberglass cracking with moderate handling, which I don't care for at all. Mark L's decision to layer the wings using a fiberglass-foam-carbon fiber sandwich is the common sense solution, but in order to insure that my new wings will handle the rigors of being taken on and off regularly , I am considering an additional step. In this step, prior to laying up the outer layer of CF, I will put a crosshatch of 3/4" wide Vee grooves in the outer layer of foam, and then fill those grooves with a layer of CF, which would form a grid of reinforcing angles UNDER the outer skin when that is applied. It seems like a reasonable extra bit of work to do for some extra peace of mind. I'm also going to add four 1/4 inch threaded inserts into the top of the spars (2 front , 2 rear).That allows me to put Eyebolts into the wings during ground operations and lift them using a boom, thus being able to load, unload and attach the wings by myself without putting stress on the skins. How do those idea sound to my fellow netters, particularly you Mark L? Glenn Martin N1333A, Biloxi, MS
KR> Wing Skin Reinforcement
Thanks all That tells me some info I needed. I do have damage to the wings and cowling that need repair, but it sounds like I can do the repairs and get her flying again using the standard techniques. Afterwards, using my idea, I will try some tests on small prototype Glass-Foam-CF sandwich sections and see what the difference is. If it's to my satisfaction, I'll do that with a set of new airfoils. The old ones are RAF-48. I'm still going to add the lifting attachments though, as my trailer will have a boom which should allow me to easily and quickly attach the wings without putting any undue stress on the wings. The time spent attaching the wings has been a common complaint and I think I can improve on that, as I don't intend to hanger her, but keep her in an enclosed, vented trailer. The weight of the wings isn't the problem, the bulkiness is. BTW..To clarify: the crosshatch of Vee grooves are lines at an approx. 60 degree angle to each other, extending from spar to spar, cut INTO and bonded to the foam used for the skin form. I am STILL using the sandwich construction Mark L uses. Each parallel groove is spaced 10-12 inches apart (Think of the pattern between the spars, top of each X to Fwd spar, bottom of each X to Aft spar, 10-12 inches between the center of each X). The inside of the CF angle would then be filled with foam again, pretty much impregnating the CF angle into the original foam form except for some material which would used to bond it to the skin (think little flaps of CF to each side of the groove). I don't expect the weight penalty to be substantial. I need to make a drawing. A picture speaks a thousand words. I'm not good with CAD, but it looks like I'll be learning. Glenn Martin KR2 N1333A Biloxi ,MS > Just between you and me, I have about two square feet of lower wing >that's pure mush because my right wheel pant got ripped off and stuffed >into >it when I landed 20 yards short of the runway on my second crank break. >I've been flying it that way for nine months now, although I plan to fix it >over the winter, if I can quit flying for long enough. Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mail: N56ML "at" hiwaay.net website: www.N56ML.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Wing Skin Reinforcement
Glen wrote: > In this step, prior to laying up the outer layer of CF, I will > put a > crosshatch of 3/4" wide Vee grooves in the outer layer of foam, and > then > fill those grooves with a layer of CF, which would form a grid of > reinforcing angles UNDER the outer skin when that is applied. It > seems like > a reasonable extra bit of work to do for some extra peace of mind. I had to cut some grooves in the foam to get my wing back to the exact shape that I wanted after glassing the bottom half. These were filled with micro and dressed up before I glassed the top. The finish was beautiful when I got them back from the paint shop. About a month after it was at the airport in the summer the grooves started to mirror through the finish and the glass and have never gone away. ( I know you guys had to have seen them) I wouldn't do anything to that foam underneath the glass except keep it perfect and undamaged till the glass is on. > I'm also going to add four 1/4 inch threaded inserts into the > top of the > spars (2 front , 2 rear).That allows me to put Eyebolts into the > wings > during ground operations and lift them using a boom, thus being able > to > load, unload and attach the wings by myself without putting stress > Seems like over kill also. I did one insert of a sort under each wing to thread in a tie down, but at 48 # the wings are only just awkward. I use a creeper that folds up into a seat with a piece of foam on it to support the wing for off and on and can just roll it round on the seat. Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com Click to find information on your credit score and your credit report. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m2PctQ1UiI45DIbvOZed4UdmHfIHds6ZJpisy6kDEYpMHdO/
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement
Glenn Martin wrote: >In this step, prior to laying up the outer layer of CF, I will put a > crosshatch of 3/4" wide Vee grooves in the outer layer of foam, and then > fill those grooves with a layer of CF, which would form a grid of > reinforcing angles UNDER the outer skin when that is applied. It seems > like > a reasonable extra bit of work to do for some extra peace of mind. >How do those idea sound to my fellow netters, particularly you Mark L? That sounds like a two year penalty with regards to flying! Don't forget that fabric covered airplanes aren't exactly "stout", and they fly just fine. Just between you and me, I have about two square feet of lower wing that's pure mush because my right wheel pant got ripped off and stuffed into it when I landed 20 yards short of the runway on my second crank break. I've been flying it that way for nine months now, although I plan to fix it over the winter, if I can quit flying for long enough. It sounds like you have wings now. It's difficult to say without seeing it, but I'd be tempted to finish it and fly it. Now if you want a show plane (and it won't stay that way for long) and don't mind spending a few extra years on it, that may be the way to go. It's your plane and your decision, but a lot of heavy planes got that way for "extra peace of mind"... Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL mail: N56ML "at" hiwaay.net website: www.N56ML.com
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement
So the outer skin would only contact 50% of the wing area? Wouldn't there be a bunch of 3/4" squares on the surface that have no support and be prone to damage? Maybe fill the voids with micro and sand smooth but that would be heavy I'd think...I'm an armchair pilot still so I don't really know. -Original Message- From: Martek Mississippi [mailto:rep...@martekmississippi.com] Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:08 PM To: KRnet Subject: KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement I have noticed on the KR2 I just purchased that the wings are not as stout as I would like. When I moved the wings to the storage area I could hear the foam under the fiberglass cracking with moderate handling, which I don't care for at all. Mark L's decision to layer the wings using a fiberglass-foam-carbon fiber sandwich is the common sense solution, but in order to insure that my new wings will handle the rigors of being taken on and off regularly , I am considering an additional step. In this step, prior to laying up the outer layer of CF, I will put a crosshatch of 3/4" wide Vee grooves in the outer layer of foam, and then fill those grooves with a layer of CF, which would form a grid of reinforcing angles UNDER the outer skin when that is applied. It seems like a reasonable extra bit of work to do for some extra peace of mind. I'm also going to add four 1/4 inch threaded inserts into the top of the spars (2 front , 2 rear).That allows me to put Eyebolts into the wings during ground operations and lift them using a boom, thus being able to load, unload and attach the wings by myself without putting stress on the skins. How do those idea sound to my fellow netters, particularly you Mark L? Glenn Martin N1333A, Biloxi, MS - Original Message - From: "Dana Overall" To: "KRnet" Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: KR> Fun Friday Just a heads up to what is available to us in the experimental world. This is an actual shot coming out of Land of Enchantment Flyin this past weekend. Mine shipped yesterday, should be here tomorrow!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCWf8-rhfzU The following is a synthetic approach of an ILS. The GRT unit superimposes the HITS (highway in the sky) square boxes instead of the localizer/GS needles and you simply fly through the boxes. http://www.rocket-boys.com/images/GRT_SAP_HITS.wmv Let this thing load before you play it. If you are using dial up, forget it!! I post these just to motivate all builders. We in the experimental world continue to have access to the best of the best at an affordable price. Anybody care to guess what a certified unit would cost to do what this unit does? Life is good. Keep gluing, I'll keep pounding. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying..well sorta, useta, kinda Barrett Precision O 360 A1A Hartzell C2YR-1BFP/F7497-2 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackmagic.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Wing Skin Reinfrocement
I have noticed on the KR2 I just purchased that the wings are not as stout as I would like. When I moved the wings to the storage area I could hear the foam under the fiberglass cracking with moderate handling, which I don't care for at all. Mark L's decision to layer the wings using a fiberglass-foam-carbon fiber sandwich is the common sense solution, but in order to insure that my new wings will handle the rigors of being taken on and off regularly , I am considering an additional step. In this step, prior to laying up the outer layer of CF, I will put a crosshatch of 3/4" wide Vee grooves in the outer layer of foam, and then fill those grooves with a layer of CF, which would form a grid of reinforcing angles UNDER the outer skin when that is applied. It seems like a reasonable extra bit of work to do for some extra peace of mind. I'm also going to add four 1/4 inch threaded inserts into the top of the spars (2 front , 2 rear).That allows me to put Eyebolts into the wings during ground operations and lift them using a boom, thus being able to load, unload and attach the wings by myself without putting stress on the skins. How do those idea sound to my fellow netters, particularly you Mark L? Glenn Martin N1333A, Biloxi, MS - Original Message - From: "Dana Overall" To: "KRnet" Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: KR> Fun Friday Just a heads up to what is available to us in the experimental world. This is an actual shot coming out of Land of Enchantment Flyin this past weekend. Mine shipped yesterday, should be here tomorrow!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCWf8-rhfzU The following is a synthetic approach of an ILS. The GRT unit superimposes the HITS (highway in the sky) square boxes instead of the localizer/GS needles and you simply fly through the boxes. http://www.rocket-boys.com/images/GRT_SAP_HITS.wmv Let this thing load before you play it. If you are using dial up, forget it!! I post these just to motivate all builders. We in the experimental world continue to have access to the best of the best at an affordable price. Anybody care to guess what a certified unit would cost to do what this unit does? Life is good. Keep gluing, I'll keep pounding. Dana Overall 1999 & 2000 National KR Gathering host Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying..well sorta, useta, kinda Barrett Precision O 360 A1A Hartzell C2YR-1BFP/F7497-2 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackmagic.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4 http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> wing skin shrinkage
Guys mine did the same thing with the spars image showing through. It showed up right after it was painted. It also in places that are 2 different kinds of foam and also where carbon fiber was used. I could not find any delamination and I wanted to fly so that is what I'm doing. But it really bothers me to look at my wings. Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:35:19 -0500 Keith & Martha Crawford writes: > > > I have heard of the skin being so air tight that when the air > contracted it sucked the skin in and when it expanded it blew up > like > a balloon. do you have small weep holes that let it breathe? > Keith Crawford > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
KR> wing skin shrinkage
For the most part you will see the same thing on just about all plans built KR wings. Mine look that way and one of them has been around for over 20 years. Orma Southfield, MI KR-2 N110LR 1984 See Tweety at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com See other KR spces at www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.htm
KR> Wing Skin / Wing Tanks Questions
Hi all. I have fitted my lower wing skins (Dan Diehl) and making the wing tanks, as per instructions. Questions 1 What is a good fuel sender to use, or how are you manually dipping your fuel tanks? 2 Finishing the leading edge, Do you use the v/ester, because it is really difficult to sand? 3 Has anyone split the wing tank in half, and fit two filler caps on each wing, this may save a sender unit, and make it possible to manually dip the smaller tanks before flight. 4 What fuel system do you use if you do not use a front tank? i.e. duel pumps plus the engine driven pump? Phil Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au VH-PKR ( reserved) 61 3 58833588 See our VW Engines and Home built web page at http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
KR> Wing Skin / Wing Tanks Questions
Phil My wings are from Gene Byrds crashed KR so I cant answer most of your questions. As for the sender question, I got mine from J.C. Whitney. I removed most of the mounting hardware and mounted it to a lastafoam sandwich and floxed it to the fwd. spar side of the tank it in the lowest part. You can see my sender installation on my website. I used vinylester for all work inside the tank. http://www.jackandsandycooper.com/tank.html Jack Cooper mailto:kr2coo...@msn.com http://www.jackandsandycooper.com/kr2 Fayetteville, NC. - Original Message - From: Phil Matheson To: KR builders and pilots Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 5:30 PM Subject: Re: KR> Wing Skin / Wing Tanks Questions Hi all. I have fitted my lower wing skins (Dan Diehl) and making the wing tanks, as per instructions. Questions 1 What is a good fuel sender to use, or how are you manually dipping your fuel tanks? 2 Finishing the leading edge, Do you use the v/ester, because it is really difficult to sand? 3 Has anyone split the wing tank in half, and fit two filler caps on each wing, this may save a sender unit, and make it possible to manually dip the smaller tanks before flight. 4 What fuel system do you use if you do not use a front tank? i.e. duel pumps plus the engine driven pump? Phil Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au VH-PKR ( reserved) 61 3 58833588 See our VW Engines and Home built web page at http://www.vw-engines.com/ www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ ___ see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
