Re: [lace] Threads
Sorry Miriam, I've never heard of SoftRise, but if anyone does know please tell me too. Brenda can anyone tell me what kind of thread SoftRise is and who the manufacturer is so I can find a catalog on the internet. What can I substitute for it? Miriam who has returned from OIDFA with a lot of new ideas - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] mother of pearl fansticks on ebay
Ebay item number 160261411460 can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=160261411460ssPageName =ADME:B:ONA:AU:1120 item=160261411460ssPageName=ADME:B:ONA:AU:1120 and there is just 6.5 hours left for those who want a set of fan sticks. It is past my limit but They do look lushious. Jenny Brandis Kununurra, Western Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.brandis.com.au - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fw: [lace] mother of pearl fansticks on ebay
As you say beautiful, I hope who ever can afford them makes some beautiful lace to go with it. Sue T, Dorset UK Ebay item number 160261411460 can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=160261411460ssPageName =ADME:B:ONA:AU:1120 item=160261411460ssPageName=ADME:B:ONA:AU:1120 and there is just 6.5 hours left for those who want a set of fan sticks. It is past my limit but They do look lushious. Jenny Brandis Kununurra, Western Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.brandis.com.au - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] lace Bobbins
Hello Fellow Lacemakers My husband asked me to ask all of you this question. Bone bobbins versus wood bobbins While a lot of bobbins are turned in hard woods are not so easy to come by. It takes a lot of time to grow the trees, where`as the bones are easier to get, because most are cattle bones. I look forward to your replies. Daphne Sunny but chilly Norfolk England [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of elephant_en.gif] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
Hello Daphne and everyone There are some excellent Q and As at Kenn van Dieren's site: http://www.bobbinmaker.com/faqbob.html My quick answer is if bone was nicer to work with than wood, for the bobbin maker, maybe we'd all be using more bone bobbins than wood bobbins. I prefer wood though, any time. On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Daphne Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bone bobbins versus wood bobbins While a lot of bobbins are turned in hard woods are not so easy to come by. It takes a lot of time to grow the trees, where`as the bones are easier to get, because most are cattle bones. -- Bev (near Sooke, BC on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
This from a lace maker whose husband hand turns both bone and wood bobbins. He uses hardwood, which is mainly recycled from old furniture, gate posts, mantelpieces etc., or obtained locally when a tree has fallen in a storm or had to be felled because it was diseased, or obtained via companies that only sell FSC guaranteed wood. This last one means that the hardwood has been sustainably harvested (i..e . through necessary thinning or trees/branches that broke in a storm. I know we have to use our trust here, and of course there are unscrupulous sellers who'll tell you what you want to hear. An added problem is that it is illegal to import many endangered tropical woods into the EU, but once inside you are free to trade it. He uses bone which he buys from another well-known bobbin turner. It is mainly camel or water buffalo bone, as the cows in UK ar now slaughtered before they are 36 months old, and the bones are therefore too thin to be used for lace bobbins. He did obtain some bones locally, cleaned them in the pressure cooker with washing powder; the smell was horrible and the result a few divider pins. In Victorian times the bones used were mainly horse (from work horses) as their bones were longer and straighter than cow bones, though these were used too. Agnes Boddington - Elloughton UK www.sixpennybobbins.co.uk Daphne Martin wrote: Hello Fellow Lacemakers My husband asked me to ask all of you this question. Bone bobbins versus wood bobbins While a lot of bobbins are turned in hard woods are not so easy to come by. It takes a lot of time to grow the trees, where`as the bones are easier to get, because most are cattle bones. I look forward to your replies. Daphne Sunny but chilly Norfolk England - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
This question brought several thoughts to my mind. Yes, trees take longer to grow than a cow, but there's a lot fewer earth resources used in growing a mature speciman. I understand it's harder or messier to turn bobbins from bone than wood. There must be some reason that bone bobbins are so much more expensive than wood bobbins-- either cost/availability of supplies or labor to do it. Also, how many bobbins can be made from the bones of one cow? It takes bone of a certain thickness and not all the bones qualify. I may be wrong, but I think a person can get more bobbins from one branch of that tree than from an entire cow. Because of the small amount of wood needed for a bobbin, they could be made from the scraps created in making larger furniture or limbs from trees cut down for other reasons. For environmental impact and economy, I go with wood bobbins. Alice in Oregon - Original Message From: Daphne Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lace lace@arachne.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:36:02 AM Subject: [lace] lace Bobbins Hello Fellow Lacemakers My husband asked me to ask all of you this question. Bone bobbins versus wood bobbins While a lot of bobbins are turned in hard woods are not so easy to come by. It takes a lot of time to grow the trees, where`as the bones are easier to get, because most are cattle bones. I look forward to your replies. Daphne Sunny but chilly Norfolk England [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of elephant_en.gif] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
Hi Daphne, Bev et al, I do love bone bobbins, but I have heard Steven Pearce talk on making bobbins several times, and as he makes only bone bobbins, it is a real performance! He has all sorts of air filters in the garden shed where he makes them, and also has a sort of mask-like job to put over his face, so he is breathing in purified air rather than bone dust, as that - apparently - is dangerous and carcinogenic. Maybe that explains why bone is generally more expensive, and less easily available! Carol - in Suffolk UK - Original Message - From: bevw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daphne Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lace lace@arachne.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [lace] lace Bobbins Hello Daphne and everyone There are some excellent Q and As at Kenn van Dieren's site: http://www.bobbinmaker.com/faqbob.html My quick answer is if bone was nicer to work with than wood, for the bobbin maker, maybe we'd all be using more bone bobbins than wood bobbins. I prefer wood though, any time. On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Daphne Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bone bobbins versus wood bobbins While a lot of bobbins are turned in hard woods are not so easy to come by. It takes a lot of time to grow the trees, where`as the bones are easier to get, because most are cattle bones. -- Bev (near Sooke, BC on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
And another thing to consider is that the trees absord carbon dioxide while they are growing and the carbon remains trapped in our bobbins. Although there is a fair bit of waste in the cutting into blanks and turning , I should think that about a quarter to a third of the wood ends up as a bobbin. Cows give off methane (another greenhouse gas) while they are alive, as does any of their remains that end up in landfill, but I don't know what the effect on the carbon cycle of preserving a very small percentage of their bone in the form of bobbins. Along with that, I believe that the dust from turning bone bobbins is more unpleasant/risky than that from bobbins (although that varies from wood to wood, as I discussed with Richard Gravestock at length one day. I think he said that the fruitwoods like apple and plum were among the most dangerous) I too go with wood, although I do like the feel of a good bone bobbin. Jacquie in Lincolnshire - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
Hi Alice and all To make one bone bobbin takes one cow leg, preferably a hind one as the bone is thicker. Normally the thigh bone is used. That's why they are so expensive. Agnes Boddington - Elloughton UK www.sixpennybobbins.co.uk Alice Howell wrote: This question brought several thoughts to my mind. Yes, trees take longer to grow than a cow, but there's a lot fewer earth resources used in growing a mature speciman. I understand it's harder or messier to turn bobbins from bone than wood. There must be some reason that bone bobbins are so much more expensive than wood bobbins-- either cost/availability of supplies or labor to do it. Also, how many bobbins can be made from the bones of one cow? It takes bone of a certain thickness and not all the bones qualify. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] lace Bobbins
I have also heard Stephen Pearce talk. If I remember correctly, thanks to the new regulations about slaughtering animals younger he can get a maximum of 4 bobbins from one leg - if he is lucky. He buys them from a slaughterhous by something like the ton. He has to get the bone marrow out and gets so much that the birds in his vicinity are bored with it :-) When he has finished with a batch of legs he has to pay to have the leftovers taken away. I can't remember what he said about his tools but I seem to think they are slightly different from those used to turn wood. My outstanding memory of his talk is that his bobbins are worth every penny he charges - and I thought you probably had to be lightly mad to work with bone :-) Patricia in Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] OIDFA Trip Day 12-14 Heidelberg and the Rhine
OIDFA Trip Day 12-13-14 Heidelberg and the Rhine My travel problems were on Sundays. I got up early and took the Metro to Gard du Est. The train I wanted was full. No seats left. I had to wait in the train station for four hours to catch the next train which meant that I would arrive in Heidelberg late in the day. Once on the train, it was a pleasant ride. Facing me was a man with wife and 3 girls in the seats across the aisle. We chatted through much of the journey. He had been stationed in Heidleberg when he was in the military and was taking his family to see it. My hotel was in the middle of the old part of town so I took a tram, and then walked a ways to get there. My room was the smallest room I'd had so far, but a very roomy bathroom. The window opened onto a wall so I had air but no view. The hotel did have an excellent restaurant with tables outdoors. It faced the big square next to the Church of the Holy Spirit. Opposite the church was the Town Hall. I had my meals outdoors and enjoyed watching all the people. I tried to choose traditional German food. The day I arrived was the day of the Germany-Spain soccer World Cup. The street was full of mostly students (some adults) parading in German flags and flag colors. They were all excited, and planning on a big celebration. The town would have been wild if they had won, but the honor went to the Spanish. It was very quiet after the game. I had only one full day here, so I visited the church when it opened. The organist was practicing. It's a smaller church than the others I'd seen, but very pretty. After a quick visit to the Internet Cafe, I went up to the Schloss (Castle) and spent some time walking around the grounds.There was a great view of the town from up there. I rode the mountain tram back down to the city and walked around a bit more. I enjoyed window shopping as I strolled the streets, and watched the people. The start of Day 15 was very early. I had ordered a taxi for fast transport to the train. I caught the earliest train to Mainz so I could catch the early Rhine Cruise boat. I made it with barely a minute to spare. I think they started to raise the boarding plank just after I got on. There was only 16 minutes from the train arrival till the cruise time. I thanked my taxi driver immensely for a fast transport. I had to drag my luggage with me on the cruise. I hauled it up the stairs to the top deck and found a table under the canvas top. The weather was hot and sunny, with a nice breeze. I knew I would burn if I sat in the sun for 5 hours. There were quite a few people, but lots of room. One stop later, a tour of Italians boarded and took over the front section of the boat. They serenaded everyone for 15 or 20 minutes. The next stop gained a tour of Japanese people. They filled in all the space left. An hour or so later, one of the tours departed. The next stop the other tour departed. On the next stop, there were 50 or more kids who boarded. I think it was more than one group. They left before my stop. There are 30 or more castles (or ruins) between Mainz and Koln. Most of them are between Mainz and Koblenz so I saw lots of castles on the hills next to the river. I took pictures of all of them we saw. The weather was almost perfect for a river cruise. The breeze kept the heat from being oppressive. When I debarked, I was able to catch a taxi cruising by the boat landing, and caught the next train going to Koln where I had a hotel for the night. Days 12-13-14 No lace. Church number 6 and lots of castles. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] OIDFA Trip Days 9-11 Paris
Alice - the most amazing organ playing I have ever heard was at the Sacre Coeur (in Montmartre) Karen in Malta -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alice Howell Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:51 AM To: lace@arachne.com Subject: [!! SPAM] [lace] OIDFA Trip Days 9-11 Paris OIDFA Trip Days 9-11Paris Up at 5:30 to catch the early train to Paris, arriving at Gard du St Lazarre. Had to catch the Metro to my hotel. Having Metro tickets in my pocket made it faster. Once out of the Metro (there were four exits), I got oriented and walked about 4 blocks to my hotel. Room wasn't ready yet, so had to wait a bit. However, I was able to get settled before meeting Diane Ziebold at noon. We had lunch then took the Metro to the Louvre building, but went to the Textile Museum in the side wing rather than the main museum. It was designer clothing. Some of it did have lace on it. After the Textiles, we saw the Napoleon exhibit and the Design Arts exhibit. By that time we needed a break, so we had wine at a sidewalk cafe and watched the people. It was time for Diane to leave so we found the nearest Metro station for me, and Diane walked back to her hotel.I managed to find my way on the Metro back to my hotel, got something to eat, and tried to sleep. This was the hardest bed I had met up with so far, and Paris is rather noisy. There were sidewalk cafes at each end of the street with music. The weather was warm, so the people were enjoying the evening. Also, this hotel did not have television in the rooms so I had to read myself to sleep. The next day I slept in. It was nice not setting an alarm. Once up, I took the Metro to Notre Dame Cathedral. I had breakfast at a Brasserie across the street from the church, then went in to take a good look. There was a lot of detail to look at. It's a huge place. As I circled the central area, along with several hundred other people, I noticed the guards were moving the barriers away from the central altar. Curious what was happening, I sat down and waited. Soon a bell rang, and two priests came out and walked to the altar. Some people had gathered in the center seating area. Then I realized that they were having Saturday Noon Mass. So I sat through Mass in French. All the singing was unaccompanied so I didn't get to hear the organ but the priest had a good voice. The hundreds of visitors continued circling the central nave during the Mass. After leaving Notre Dame, I walked a few blocks towards the Cluny Museum, stopping at Shakespeare Co book store. I needed more reading material. Found 3 used English books at a tolerable price. Continuing towards the Cluny, I found the St Severin Church. When I opened the door, I heard singing. There was a high school choir, probably from the USA, giving a concert. I sat down and listened to it. There were greenery and rose bundles hanging from each pillar. Some people in the back of the church were assembling swags of roses and hanging them over the main doors in the rear. My guess was that they were decorating for a wedding later that day. When the choir sat down, more students got up with instruments and they announced the second half of the concert was orchestra music. I listened to a little bit, then looked at the very modern stained glass windows in this church, and left. Next was the Cluny Museum. It was free. It had mostly Roman artifacts and old tapestries, plus church art. Lots of madonna statues.. The Cluny was built on Roman ruins, and some of them are visible. Since it was late afternoon, I found the nearest Metro station and found my way back to the hotel. Dinner at the Brasserie where Diane and I ate, then bed. Bought earplugs at a drugstore so may be able to sleep better. The weather turned very chilly so people did not sit out at the cafes this night so the earplugs were not needed. My last day in Paris I wanted to see as much as possible. I returned to Notre Dame Square and found it full of chairs with people watching an immense projection screen on the side of a truck. A Priest Ordination Services were being conducted with no visitors allowed in. After breakfast, I got a ticket on an Open Tour bus. The main route went past all the famous landmarks. I sat in the top level of the double decker bus for most of the ride. When it started to rain, I moved downstairs. At one point in the tour, I transferred to another bus that ran a route near my hotel. I got off at Republic Square, found some dinner to take to my room, and ended the day. Days 9-11 No lace exhibits. Churches 3 and 4, plus four museums without lace. Alice in Oregon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Croatia - last one
Sorry for the typo on Lepoglava lace last time. I have now seen Pauline's example again, it is a bobbin part lace, with a ground of bobbin plaits joining the separte motifs, but as it is mounted, we cannot see the back to find out if the threads cross behind. Our trip ended in the far north-eastern corner of the country at Isijek (pronounced Ishek). Here we had hoped to see the gold-embroidery wokshops, but once again, were told that even if we managed to get to the remote gold workshops, we would not see anything. We began to wonder exactly where all the lace and embroidery is made. Outworkers, or some unknown factory?? However, we did find a textile shop right opposite our hotel, selling the gold embroidery and I bought a small but very nice picture of a gold-thread motif. Once again, we forced our way into the Ethnographic Museum. It too was barred shut, but I noticed an intercom and spoke into it. 'Two English Ladies to visit your Museum!' and sure enough, someone came and unlocked the door and let us in. 19th and early 20th century costume accessories included some lace and there was one beautiful costume dress, but no more, the vast collection was in store to make way for a War Museum. I did buy the Museum catalogue, so all was not lost. We enjoyed our last Sunday here before flying home, just relaxing, watching tennis in the park, walking by the river and eating our salad on a moored boat. I can recommend this country to anyone, the people are kind and helpful and the buses run on time. If we had booked at Festival time, we might have seen more costumes and dancing, but then, all would have been too busy and no-where to stay. Angela -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3098 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] lace Bobbins
Hello Daphne my friend, and all spiders, re bone versus hard wood - I have been told by John Cooper (bobbin maker at your lace day Daphne) that the only bones that you can use are the leg bones so that might make it a little bit harder to get hold of and they take a great deal of preparation prior to turning. My own choice would be bone every time but the cost is usually the deciding factor. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.1/1559 - Release Date: 17/07/2008 18:08 - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] lace Bobbins
I love the smooth silky feel of bone bobbins, - but can't afford them very often, unfortunately. Wood - well, I go for the feel of them, and go for the smooth silky feel, if I have a choice. The Acrylic bobbins have the nice feel that I like, too. Isn't it a good thing we all like something different --- or there would only ever be a choice of One! :)) Regards from Liz in Melbourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 224 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: lace Bobbins
On Jul 21, 2008, at 23:58, Elizabeth Ligeti wrote: I love the smooth silky feel of bone bobbins, - but can't afford them very often, unfortunately. Ditto on both -- I adore bone bobbins but can't really aford them. It's just as well that my favourite bobbin maker (Neil Keats, in Oz), who makes my special T-squares, doesn't work with bone; I'd be too broke to afford thread or pillows :) Bone bobbins are heavier than wood -- even ebony -- ones, so they tension better. But they're not as heavy as metal ones, so they don't break even very fine thread. They don't need varnish or laquer to finish -- they just get smoother and smoother as they age, without anything peeling off, getting sticky in humid climate or porous from excess hand perspiration. The sound of bone bobbins clicking is surpassed by that of glass ones but, somehow, bone bobbins feel more alive to touch, than glass ones ever do. So, if I had all of my d'ruthers, I'd rather have only bone bobbins to work with. But I'm happy enough with my wood ones, though I -- definitely -- have preferences as to which woods I like better than others. -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Gobbledygook
Agnes wrote: Who do think uttered these words, and who was s/he addressing? As leading knowledge navigators you are mission critical to achieving robust and effective discharge pathways from the secondary phase of the intensive learning scenario. It was starting to go that way (but not that far) when I retired in 1997. I always though people who spouted like this were trying to cover up their incompetence by attempting to impress others with the words. Never impressed me. So glad I'm not a part of it any more. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Gobbledygook
Eschew obfuscation. As leading knowledge navigators you are mission critical to achieving robust and effective discharge pathways from the secondary phase of the intensive learning scenario. Thurlow Weed Lancaster, Ohio To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Extreme ironing
I remember, on a camping holiday, seeing a woman ironing handkerchiefs, towels, undies, etc. - Holiday??? :( No way!!! Not for me I only iron the absolute 'Musts' - like blouses, and slacks!! Regards from Liz in Melbourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 224 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
