RE: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
I hope that you still consider setting it up only available to localhost. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Hanks Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:51 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking On Wed, 14 Jun 2006, Shane Hathaway wrote: > Thomas Haws wrote: >> This is very intriguing. Can you point to an example we might >> install and try? > > I hope someone else knows of an example. Conceptually, it's simple, > and I can see the solution from start to finish. But I'm surprised it > hasn't been done very often. Maybe we need a proof of concept. There's a Perl module called Net::Server (http://search.cpan.org/~rhandom/Net-Server-0.93/lib/Net/Server.pm) that could be used to easily implment a simple HTTP server for use with something like this. Another such module would be HTTP::Daemon (http://search.cpan.org/~gaas/libwww-perl-5.805/lib/HTTP/Daemon.pm). The installer could be smart enough to ask if this is a desktop/standalone install (and use the Perl module or whatever other lightweight httpd is included with the package) or a server install (in which case it would use the Apache or whatever is running on the server. -- Dan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
Installability and easy updates. And easy synchronizing ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven H. McCown Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 10:54 PM To: 'LDS Open Source Software' Subject: RE: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking Other thoughts: Whatever language is used for this or any general app needs to consider the end user. The general end user is not a power sys admin, but someone who installs out of the box, uses only the defaults, and never updates. If Perl or Ruby or what ever is used is installed on the user's box, then the Scout app needs to keep those up to date on patches and security fixes. To require the user to update Perl or Python is unreasonable and to not keep it up to date is not responsible. Most users are not perpetually WiFi connected, but still use the Internet at home. Most of the church buildings do not have WiFi. That's why a web app would require 2 sets of record keeping -- for most users. I went to church in SLC and most of the male members had PDAs instead of scriptures in books. It's the opposite in most other places that I've been. We're discussing what *we* (computer scientists, sys admins, etc.) would like. What would the average user like? Steve ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
Steven McCown explains in detail what was bothering me about using Perl or Ruby. The reality is that those languages and the average Windows box just don't jive. But Java does. Is there a way to do this using Java? Sorry, but as Steven says, we have to consider the end user. And the end user bought his computer at Dell or Walmart with the default version of Windows pre-installed. -- Tom Haws 480-201-5476 OpenOffice.org v. MS Office: Kids love OOo. Wife didn't notice I switched. Get OOo free. "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
Java would be ideal from my perspective. And if he wants to use Pyhthon he still can by doing it with Jython. Manfred -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Haws Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 8:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking Steven McCown explains in detail what was bothering me about using Perl or Ruby. The reality is that those languages and the average Windows box just don't jive. But Java does. Is there a way to do this using Java? Sorry, but as Steven says, we have to consider the end user. And the end user bought his computer at Dell or Walmart with the default version of Windows pre-installed. -- Tom Haws 480-201-5476 OpenOffice.org v. MS Office: Kids love OOo. Wife didn't notice I switched. Get OOo free. "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
On 6/15/06, Thomas Haws <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steven McCown explains in detail what was bothering me about using Perl or Ruby. The reality is that those languages and the average Windows box just don't jive. But Java does. Is there a way to do this using Java? Sorry, but as Steven says, we have to consider the end user. And the end user bought his computer at Dell or Walmart with the default version of Windows pre-installed. -- Of course you can do this with Java. Look at Tomcat. You could easily package a small Java based webserver with an application and interact with it. Alex ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
Excellent feedback Charles. Thanks. Tom Charles Fry wrote: The issues that bother me are: I constantly find myself cutting and pasting from the online scriptures into documents I am editing. Doing this with footnotes enabled is a trecherous endeaver, as the footnote letters get copied into the text which is pasted. I just noticed the "Hide footnote indicators" option, but that actually turns footnotes off. It would be nice to have an option (even as a default!) which turned off the footnote letters, but left the links. In my mind, the letters themselves are a remnant of the printed version of the scriptures, and are antiquated by the use of hyperlinks. The current display format is highly unreadable. It may be sufficient for reference, but it is quite ill-adapted for online reading. I don't know what the best solution is, but some possibilities include: thiner single column, multi-column display, paragraph format display. One could even display the scriptures in fairly thin columns, as is done in our printed scriptures, with scrolling (perhaps aided by _javascript_?) to the left and right rather than up and down. At this point, I suspect that almost any change will more readable than the current instantiation. :-) Charles -Original Message- From: Tom Welch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:35:59 -0600 To: LDS Open Source Software Reply-To: LDS Open Source Software Although I am over the open source initiative for the Church, I've also been asked to help project manage the online scriptures program. The current version that is on http://scriptures.lds.org has been up for quite some time. It had some limitations in that there was no easy way to deploy additional languages. For quite some time a new version of the scriptures has been under development. It has been designed around supporting multiple languages. So, although the initial look and feel of this new version does not look much different, it is a completely rewritten piece of code. I'm sending this email to enlist your help in testing this new scriptures program. You can find it at http://beta.scriptures.lds.org. Give it a try and send me feedback on bugs or improvements. Here is a piece of history about this software that I think is of HIGH interest to this audience. This program was not written by the Church but was written by a member and then donated to the Church. Even the original version that has been on the website for some time was written by this member. The Church has offered help with some pieces of the work (translation, technical advice, etc) but 99% of the code was done by this member and a few others who helped him. I've talked with the member about the possibility of open sourcing this code and allowing others to work on it and he is fully supportive of this approach. Using an open source approach, we could add PDA links, alternate formatting and an API set to integrate the online scriptures into other programs. We are not sure this will happen yet as there may be some extenuating circumstances we have to first solve but I thought you all would find it interesting that an open source model can work for the Church. Meanwhile, please help test http://beta.scriptures.lds.org and thanks for your help! Tom -- Tom Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801) 240-1609 (858) 829-4614 - Cell -- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -- ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss -- Tom Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801) 240-1609 (858) 829-4614 - Cell -- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -- ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
Steven H. McCown wrote: Most users are not perpetually WiFi connected, but still use the Internet at home. Most of the church buildings do not have WiFi. That's why a web app would require 2 sets of record keeping -- for most users. The web app actually eliminates a set of records... If parents can update their Son's/Daughter's progress on-line then they don't need to track it in their Son's scout handbook or D2G booklet. If the web app is easy to use then parents are more likely to be involved as well; which they should be. As for church buildings being connected I don't see that too far out. For one, the new genealogical software is a web app, from what I understand. Therefore, Family History Centers (usually in stake buildings outside of Utah) will need to be connected. Also, I noticed that our new building, built less than a year ago, has cat-5 ports are in about every room. It seems that someone is planning ahead. I went to church in SLC and most of the male members had PDAs instead of scriptures in books. It's the opposite in most other places that I've been. Many members, both male and female, use PDA's for scriptures (and more) in places like Dallas, TX as well. I imagine the trend is true in about any city or area with the right demographics. We're discussing what *we* (computer scientists, sys admins, etc.) would like. What would the average user like? Don't forget that the parent may be a potential user as well. -stacey. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
The font we currently use is Arial. We have to stick with a font that is available or easily substituted on every OS because if we were to use something like Trebuchet, few people would have that font on their system and so they would get some substitution that may not be suitable. Tom Steven H. McCown wrote: I read somewhere that Trebuchet and Veranda were considered the best fonts for online reading. Could that help the readability? Does anyone know what the current font is? Steve -Original Message- On Behalf Of Charles Fry The current display format is highly unreadable. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss -- Tom Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801) 240-1609 (858) 829-4614 - Cell -- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -- ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
On 6/15/06, Tom Welch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The font we currently use is Arial. We have to stick with a font that is available or easily substituted on every OS because if we were to use something like Trebuchet, few people would have that font on their system and so they would get some substitution that may not be suitable. Tom Verdana has been available on every modern Windows, Mac, and Linux system that I've used, for what it's worth. ~ Nathan Stocks ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
Thomas Haws wrote: > Steven McCown explains in detail what was bothering me about using > Perl or Ruby. The reality is that those languages and the average > Windows box just don't jive. That's a big assumption, but I can't deny it, since I don't know Perl or Ruby well enough. Chances are there's someone in each respective community who has made it easy to build Windows installers. > But Java does. Is there a way to do > this using Java? Sorry, but as Steven says, we have to consider the > end user. And the end user bought his computer at Dell or Walmart > with the default version of Windows pre-installed. But you don't really want to rely on whatever version of Java the user has installed, do you? That would be a support mess. To keep focused on software development rather than support, you need to ship a particular version of the JRE anyway. I just remembered that Plone has a great example of the kind of installer I've been talking about. You've got to check this out. Go to: http://plone.org/products/plone Just for you, I rebooted into Windows to try out the installer. :-) Roughly, here are all of the steps I went through: 1) The download link on plone.org redirected me to Sourceforge. I chose a download location. 2) My browser popped up the download dialog and I chose to save to the desktop. 3) When the download finished, I double-clicked the .exe file. 4) An installation wizard popped up. I clicked through the license agreement, which was the GPL. 5) I chose where to install it (C:\Program Files\Plone 2). 6) I was prompted for an administrative user name and password. I entered one. 7) After clicking "Next" / "Finish" once or twice and waiting a minute, the wizard said it was done and I closed the wizard. 8) I clicked Start | All programs | Plone | Plone (or something like that). 9) A little GUI popped up. I clicked the start button in the GUI, then clicked the view button. 10) A browser window popped up with a page served directly from my laptop, with "http://localhost/"; in the URL bar. Having accomplished my task, I then rebooted. :-) At no point did the installer look or feel different from other Windows installer. It didn't even tell me it was installing Python and a bunch of libraries, because those are technical details that don't matter to the end user. It's a 15 MB download, but that's because Plone is a big application with lots of bundled support libraries. By comparison, the JRE alone is 18 MB. We could use the Plone installer as an example, since it's fully open source. The GUI for starting and stopping Plone is also written in Python, so we can change it to work with the system tray instead or whatever. Mac support for Python is also quite good from what I hear, but I don't know the details. Shane ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
You do know you can specify in order the font faces you prefer, right? "Verdana,Trebuchet,Arial,sans serif" Tom -- Tom Haws 480-201-5476 OpenOffice.org v. MS Office: Kids love OOo. Wife didn't notice I switched. Get OOo free. "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
Yes you can. Does the OS make substitutions before going to the next font in the list? I'm not sure on that point. Tom Thomas Haws wrote: You do know you can specify in order the font faces you prefer, right? "Verdana,Trebuchet,Arial,sans serif" Tom -- Tom Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801) 240-1609 (858) 829-4614 - Cell ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
It goes down the list and uses the first font on the list that it can find. So you put the exact favorite you want first, then proceed forward to more general substitutes in case the first isn't found. Tom On 6/15/06, Tom Welch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes you can. Does the OS make substitutions before going to the next font in the list? I'm not sure on that point. Tom Thomas Haws wrote: > You do know you can specify in order the font faces you prefer, right? > > "Verdana,Trebuchet,Arial,sans serif" > Tom > -- Tom Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801) 240-1609 (858) 829-4614 - Cell ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss -- Tom Haws 480-201-5476 OpenOffice.org v. MS Office: Kids love OOo. Wife didn't notice I switched. Get OOo free. "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] New Scriptures Beta Test Site
Steven H. McCown wrote: #1 problem? How about the #2 problem. :) You also can't change the highlight color on searched terms. For colorblind people (like myself), this makes it really hard to see what was just highlighted. I wrote in about it and was told that it may be considered for 'the next version'. What The church's website is not 508 compliant? Say it isn't so. Fortunately, my color-blind father never lived to see the day or not _see_, as the case may be. -- A. Rick Anderson ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
On 6/14/06, Shane Hathaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thomas Haws wrote: > This is very intriguing. Can you point to an example we might install > and try? I hope someone else knows of an example. Conceptually, it's simple, and I can see the solution from start to finish. But I'm surprised it hasn't been done very often. Maybe we need a proof of concept. I believe the Zesty News application is supposed to work like this, though I haven't tried it myself yet: http://www.blazingthings.com/zestynews/index.html It's written with the Python Turbogears web framework, though I believe you could do the exact same type of thing with Django or Ruby on Rails. Of the three, I prefer Django, even though you didn't ask :-) Bryan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
On 6/15/06, Bryan Murdock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/14/06, Shane Hathaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thomas Haws wrote: > > This is very intriguing. Can you point to an example we might install > > and try? > > I hope someone else knows of an example. Conceptually, it's simple, and > I can see the solution from start to finish. But I'm surprised it > hasn't been done very often. Maybe we need a proof of concept. I believe the Zesty News application is supposed to work like this, though I haven't tried it myself yet: http://www.blazingthings.com/zestynews/index.html Replying to myself here. It looks like you can't download it right now. It doesn't look like it's even open source. But anyway, I googled and found this interesting forum post from the author where he explains a bit how this desktop web-app thingy might work: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=121&thread=109044 Bryan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Scout Tracking
On 6/15/06, Thomas Haws <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steven McCown explains in detail what was bothering me about using Perl or Ruby. The reality is that those languages and the average Windows box just don't jive. But Java does. So does Python. Actually, I'm not really sure what you are talking about, but I haven't tried much Perl or Ruby on windows, so maybe there is something non-jivey there, I don't know. Python and python-based apps install and run on windows just fine. If we are doing a web based application, then non-geeky end-users don't have to worry about any of the system administration/security stuff that people are bringing up. One more thing. I agree with the people that are saying we should get a sourceforge project going and a seperate mailing list and really get to work, instead of having this vague discussion about what might be. In fact, I did this with a couple friends of mine a while back: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ctm but it never really got anywhere, as you can see. I don't feel like I have the time or expertise to really lead this project, but if you don't want to go through the pain of starting a new sourceforge project I'd be more than willing to hand this one over. My wife is having a baby tomorrow, so don't expect me to reply for a few days, but I thought I'd throw that it out there. Bryan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
