Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Mary Young]

Hi, Richard
I feel these grandchildren are part of the family and must be linked.
Create two "ghost" children for the grandparents. Mark them as
"unknown gender" and attach a grandchild to each. When you have more
info. you can put name and gender to the ghosts, or merge with known
children.
It's worth remembering that (depending on society/country/timeframe),
the grandson with a different surname may be a daughter's illegitimate
child, using his father's name. For instance, this was commonly done
in 19th century Scotland.
-- 
Regards
Mary Young
www.cmy.org.uk



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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[MJMethod]

 
 
I  have several such situations. I create an Unknown given name under the 
Surname,  with an explanation in the Notes, then create the Grandson or 
Granddaughter,  again with an explanation in the Notes.
At some point you will (hopefully) figure out the  relationship. Then it 
is a simple process to either a) convert "Unknown" to the  name of a newly 
discovered child, or b) move the Grandson/Granddaughter to their  correct 
parent 
and then delete the Unknown.

Mike

Michael J Method
family research of:  Method, Feehily, Fredrick, Herzog, tenEyck, Belsley
 
In a message dated 10/11/2007 7:28:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have  obtained a Census re my Ancestors. However, also listed on the Census 
are two  entries. One is a male, with a different Surname, but listed as 
Granson, 11  yrs old. The other is the main family Surname, listed as 
Grandaughter 
(5 yrs  old). I have know ideat who the parents were at this stage. Does 
anyone know  how to enter them into Legacy as somehow linked to the family? Or 
do 
I enter  them as individuals with no link at this stage. Begginer user. 
Regards,  Richard.







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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Richard Hallford]

Thanks Mary. Re these "Grandchildren", I agree that they are part of the
family. In fact in later census (cenci?) the female granddaughter is still
with the famiy head, thirty years later. However, just taking the age of the
femal, 8yrs old and that the eldest of the "sibling" in the rest of the
family is 20, it is unlikely that the "granddaughter" belongs to any of the
Heads children. The head being 60, probably not him either. So the parents
had to be outside the family, possibly a brother or sisters child. Place of
birth is all exactly the same throughout the whole family, except for the
wife, although Im finding that census data for 1800's can be dodgy.
Enumerators may have just dittoed that one.
For those interested. I have found that on findmypast.com, you can search
the 1881 census for free, but more importantly, can search by address. So if
you know the address of someone in a Census, you can have a look at there
neighbors. I did that and low and behold, one of the grandchildren surnames
appeared a few doors down! Not conclusive evidence I know, but food for
thought.
However, I dont know what you meand by "create ghost children". How do you
do that? Probably just my inexperience with Legacy, but as I dont know the
grandparents, how do I enter them. Just as "Unknown grandparents"?
Kindest regards, Richard Hallford

On 10/11/07, Mary Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi, Richard
> I feel these grandchildren are part of the family and must be linked.
> Create two "ghost" children for the grandparents. Mark them as
> "unknown gender" and attach a grandchild to each. When you have more
> info. you can put name and gender to the ghosts, or merge with known
> children.
> It's worth remembering that (depending on society/country/timeframe),
> the grandson with a different surname may be a daughter's illegitimate
> child, using his father's name. For instance, this was commonly done
> in 19th century Scotland.
> --
> Regards
> Mary Young
> www.cmy.org.uk
>
>
>
> Legacy User Group guidelines:
>http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp
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>
>
>




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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Cathy]

Hi Richard,

Without further evidence, I wouldn't assume that the children weren't 
real grandchildren. You appear to be indicating that you know all of 
the head's children - but children aren't always home on census 
night. My great grandfather and some of his siblings weren't home in 
the 1841 census. He was only 8 at the time.  If the Head is 60, his 
eldest child is probably much older than 20. The wife could be a second wife.


To link known grandchildren, create a new child or children for the 
head. I haven't been very consistent in what I call them. Sometimes 
"Placeholder child", "unknown daughter", "unknown child", etc


Cheers,
Cathy

At 06:58 AM 12/10/2007, you wrote:

Thanks Mary. Re these "Grandchildren", I agree that they are part of 
the family. In fact in later census (cenci?) the female 
granddaughter is still with the famiy head, thirty years later. 
However, just taking the age of the femal, 8yrs old and that the 
eldest of the "sibling" in the rest of the family is 20, it is 
unlikely that the "granddaughter" belongs to any of the Heads 
children. The head being 60, probably not him either. So the parents 
had to be outside the family, possibly a brother or sisters child. 
Place of birth is all exactly the same throughout the whole family, 
except for the wife, although Im finding that census data for 1800's 
can be dodgy. Enumerators may have just dittoed that one.
For those interested. I have found that on 
findmypast.com, you can search the 1881 
census for free, but more importantly, can search by address. So if 
you know the address of someone in a Census, you can have a look at 
there neighbors. I did that and low and behold, one of the 
grandchildren surnames appeared a few doors down! Not conclusive 
evidence I know, but food for thought.
However, I dont know what you meand by "create ghost children". How 
do you do that? Probably just my inexperience with Legacy, but as I 
dont know the grandparents, how do I enter them. Just as "Unknown 
grandparents"?

Kindest regards, Richard Hallford





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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Kathy Shiell-Stokes]

Richard
I have a very similar situation. My great great grandmother's sister 
crawled into a hole and took the hole with her...vanished into thin air.
In the course of trying to track her down, I located her death 
certificate  that had"her granddaughter" listed as the reporter of 
informationwhich was very interesting since, although I had her 
marriage recorded, I had no children...so this is what I did. For the 
granddaughter I created a father for her called ...and I quote"Father 
or Mother {[possible James Shearer descendant]]"(to keep me from 
accidentally merging him...)and then married him off to a woman named 
"Father or Mother."
To the couple Father or Mother and Father or Mother I add the name of 
the granddaughter...If I ever find out which one is this girl's 
parent and which of the two is a descendant, I can just change their 
name..and if it's the woman, I can change parents really 
easily...I'll have to get back to you on whether my aunt had a girl 
or a boy...but at least her grandchild is documented.

Kathy
At 06:58 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote:
Thanks Mary. Re these "Grandchildren", I agree that they are part of 
the family. In fact in later census (cenci?) the female 
granddaughter is still with the famiy head, thirty years later. 
However, just taking the age of the femal, 8yrs old and that the 
eldest of the "sibling" in the rest of the family is 20, it is 
unlikely that the "granddaughter" belongs to any of the Heads 
children. The head being 60, probably not him either. So the parents 
had to be outside the family, possibly a brother or sisters child. 
Place of birth is all exactly the same throughout the whole family, 
except for the wife, although Im finding that census data for 1800's 
can be dodgy. Enumerators may have just dittoed that one.
For those interested. I have found that on 
findmypast.com, you can search the 1881 
census for free, but more importantly, can search by address. So if 
you know the address of someone in a Census, you can have a look at 
there neighbors. I did that and low and behold, one of the 
grandchildren surnames appeared a few doors down! Not conclusive 
evidence I know, but food for thought.
However, I dont know what you meand by "create ghost children". How 
do you do that? Probably just my inexperience with Legacy, but as I 
dont know the grandparents, how do I enter them. Just as "Unknown 
grandparents"?

Kindest regards, Richard Hallford

On 10/11/07, Mary Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi, Richard
I feel these grandchildren are part of the family and must be linked.
Create two "ghost" children for the grandparents. Mark them as
"unknown gender" and attach a grandchild to each. When you have more
info. you can put name and gender to the ghosts, or merge with known
children.
It's worth remembering that (depending on society/country/timeframe),
the grandson with a different surname may be a daughter's illegitimate
child, using his father's name. For instance, this was commonly done
in 19th century Scotland.
--
Regards
Mary Young
www.cmy.org.uk



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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Richard Hallford]

Tks to all who replied. I appreciate the help. One think though, I read an
article recently re Census in England that said that the Census information
for the address was the people who NORMALLY stay their. That could mean that
a person could be listed at that address on the night of the Census, but not
actually be there. I was initially under the impression that it was only
those in the house on the night, but that might not be so. Any thoughts or
info?

On 10/12/07, Kathy Shiell-Stokes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Richard
> I have a very similar situation. My great great grandmother's sister
> crawled into a hole and took the hole with her...vanished into thin air.
> In the course of trying to track her down, I located her death
> certificate  that had"her granddaughter" listed as the reporter of
> informationwhich was very interesting since, although I had her marriage
> recorded, I had no children...so this is what I did. For the granddaughter I
> created a father for her called ...and I quote"Father or Mother {[possible
> James Shearer descendant]]"(to keep me from accidentally merging him...)and
> then married him off to a woman named "Father or Mother."
> To the couple Father or Mother and Father or Mother I add the name of the
> granddaughter...If I ever find out which one is this girl's parent and which
> of the two is a descendant, I can just change their name..and if it's
> the woman, I can change parents really easily...I'll have to get back to you
> on whether my aunt had a girl or a boy...but at least her grandchild is
> documented.
> Kathy
> At 06:58 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote:
>
> Thanks Mary. Re these "Grandchildren", I agree that they are part of the
> family. In fact in later census (cenci?) the female granddaughter is still
> with the famiy head, thirty years later. However, just taking the age of the
> femal, 8yrs old and that the eldest of the "sibling" in the rest of the
> family is 20, it is unlikely that the "granddaughter" belongs to any of the
> Heads children. The head being 60, probably not him either. So the parents
> had to be outside the family, possibly a brother or sisters child. Place of
> birth is all exactly the same throughout the whole family, except for the
> wife, although Im finding that census data for 1800's can be dodgy.
> Enumerators may have just dittoed that one.
> For those interested. I have found that on findmypast.com, you can search
> the 1881 census for free, but more importantly, can search by address. So if
> you know the address of someone in a Census, you can have a look at there
> neighbors. I did that and low and behold, one of the grandchildren surnames
> appeared a few doors down! Not conclusive evidence I know, but food for
> thought.
> However, I dont know what you meand by "create ghost children". How do you
> do that? Probably just my inexperience with Legacy, but as I dont know the
> grandparents, how do I enter them. Just as "Unknown grandparents"?
> Kindest regards, Richard Hallford
>
> On 10/11/07, *Mary Young* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Hi, Richard
> I feel these grandchildren are part of the family and must be linked.
> Create two "ghost" children for the grandparents. Mark them as
> "unknown gender" and attach a grandchild to each. When you have more
> info. you can put name and gender to the ghosts, or merge with known
> children.
> It's worth remembering that (depending on society/country/timeframe),
> the grandson with a different surname may be a daughter's illegitimate
> child, using his father's name. For instance, this was commonly done
> in 19th century Scotland.
> --
> Regards
> Mary Young
> www.cmy.org.uk
>
>
>
> Legacy User Group guidelines:
>http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp
> Archived messages:
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>
>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date:
> 10/11/2007 3:09 PM
>
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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[John Carter]

There can be a large difference between how the Census was *supposed* to
be taken and how each census taker actually *did* the field work ;-)

I'm only familiar with the US censuses, but I know that the census takers
did *not* always verify who *lived* in the house versus who was *in* the
house the day of the census.  My wife has at least two ancestors who were
counted twice in pre-1900 censuses; in each case, the person was counted
once at home and once at a grandparent's house on a different day.  My
maternal grandparents were counted twice in the 1920 Census - two census
takers covered part of the same block.

Unfortunately, having someone listed as a family member may or may not
mean that they lived in that house.

John

> Tks to all who replied. I appreciate the help. One think though, I read an
> article recently re Census in England that said that the Census
> information
> for the address was the people who NORMALLY stay their. That could mean
> that
> a person could be listed at that address on the night of the Census, but
> not
> actually be there. I was initially under the impression that it was only
> those in the house on the night, but that might not be so. Any thoughts or
> info?
>




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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Mary Young]

Hi, Richard
Think I'm going round in circles here 
This was my understanding
Person A age 60 = head of house
Persons B & C age 11 and 8 = grandchildren (according to at least one census)
There is nothing in the ages to rule out a grandparent:grandchild
relationship. So I would take the census information at face value
until you can prove different. Link them as grandchildren to Head of
House and make copious Notes.
-- Regards
Mary Young
www.cmy.org.uk



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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Tracy Skegg]

Hi Richard
It probably sounds odd, but I add a child to the parents A&B and name
the child "Placeholder for A&B's grandchildren", then add the
grandchildren to the Placeholder.  I have several of these
Placeholders because I've got the names of the descendants, but I
haven't yet been able to connect grandchildren or great grandchildren
with the correct set of parents.  I fill in sources and notes for what
I've done and how the connection is made to the grandparents.  As I
find out more details I link the children to the right couple.  They
show up in reports, but at least I get the right relationships
(descendant's reports) and just have a couple of extra children called
Placeholder.
Cheers
Tracy



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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Elizabeth Cunningham]

I also have a case where a person was enumerated in the house of her 
grandmother, and a month later was enumerated with her father.  The 
census taking in New Jersey that year must have been slow, because it 
took two weeks to get from Phillipsburg to Harmony, in the same county.


  Elizabeth C

Jenny M Benson wrote:


Richard Hallford wrote

read an article recently re Census in England that said that the 
Census information for the address was the people who NORMALLY stay 
their. That could mean that a person could be listed at that address 
on the night of the Census, but not actually be there. I was 
initially under the impression that it was only those in the house on 
the night, but that might not be so. Any thoughts or info?



Whoever wrote that article was incorrect. although they reached the 
right conclusion!


The instruction was to record *everyone* who was present in the house 
on Census night - family, lodgers, boarders, visitors, etc.


However, that's not to say that that is what always happened. Mistakes 
were made.  I have at least one instance of a person being enumerated 
in two different places and there is no way of telling which house he 
was actually in at the time.





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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[Jenny M Benson]

Richard Hallford wrote
read an article recently re Census in England that said that the 
Census information for the address was the people who NORMALLY stay 
their. That could mean that a person could be listed at that address on 
the night of the Census, but not actually be there. I was initially 
under the impression that it was only those in the house on the night, 
but that might not be so. Any thoughts or info?


Whoever wrote that article was incorrect. although they reached the 
right conclusion!


The instruction was to record *everyone* who was present in the house on 
Census night - family, lodgers, boarders, visitors, etc.


However, that's not to say that that is what always happened. Mistakes 
were made.  I have at least one instance of a person being enumerated in 
two different places and there is no way of telling which house he was 
actually in at the time.

--
Jenny M Benson



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Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[RICHARD SCHULTHIES]

In the US Census each year-decade had different rules
about who to count and the date to do it. Some took
over a year. People were frequently asked by the
census takers 'Who was living here on the date of ?
(may be a few months ago)'. This accounts for some of
the duplicates. My grandparents moved from Chicago to
Indianapolis about the 1930 census date and were
missed by both. They weren't home.
Rich in LA CA
--- Elizabeth Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I also have a case where a person was enumerated in
> the house of her 
> grandmother, and a month later was enumerated with
> her father.  The 
> census taking in New Jersey that year must have been
> slow, because it 
> took two weeks to get from Phillipsburg to Harmony,
> in the same county.
> 
>Elizabeth C
> 
> Jenny M Benson wrote:
> 
> > Richard Hallford wrote
> >
> >> read an article recently re Census in England
> that said that the 
> >> Census information for the address was the people
> who NORMALLY stay 
> >> their. That could mean that a person could be
> listed at that address 
> >> on the night of the Census, but not actually be
> there. I was 
> >> initially under the impression that it was only
> those in the house on 
> >> the night, but that might not be so. Any thoughts
> or info?
> >
> >
> > Whoever wrote that article was incorrect. although
> they reached the 
> > right conclusion!
> >
> > The instruction was to record *everyone* who was
> present in the house 
> > on Census night - family, lodgers, boarders,
> visitors, etc.
> >
> > However, that's not to say that that is what
> always happened. Mistakes 
> > were made.  I have at least one instance of a
> person being enumerated 
> > in two different places and there is no way of
> telling which house he 
> > was actually in at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 




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RE: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[M. Brenzel]

Just as an example of how this can be confusing -
 
My grandmother's sister went back to England from Western New York to
visit their grandparents.  She is listed in their household in Morebath,
Devon in the 1891 census "on 5 Apr 1891" but she lived in the US, having
left England in 1884.  She is listed as their granddaughter but there is
no mention that she was a visitor, not a resident.  And to complicate
matters, she was the informant on the death records of both of the
grandparents who died while she was there on 25 Apr 1891 and 28 Apr
1891.  Sure makes it look like she lived there!
 
Mary
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard
Hallford
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:19 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?
 
Tks to all who replied. I appreciate the help. One think though, I read
an article recently re Census in England that said that the Census
information for the address was the people who NORMALLY stay their. That
could mean that a person could be listed at that address on the night of
the Census, but not actually be there. I was initially under the
impression that it was only those in the house on the night, but that
might not be so. Any thoughts or info? 
 




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RE: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[ronald ferguson]

Richard,

If others have replied then my aplogies.

The article which you read was incorrect if it meant "normally" in the sense in 
which it reads in your email.

The position with English and Welsh (and, as far as I know, Irish and Scottish) 
censuses is that a person can only be recorded at a specific address if staying 
overnight in that property on the night of the census. Except that people who 
normally reside at that address must also be included if they are working 
during the night.

However, somebody who normally resides at that address but is away on the night 
of the census eg. a company representative who is in a hotel that night must be 
registered as resident at the hotel and not at their normal address. This can 
also mean that somebody abroad on business will not be recorded at all.

Ron Ferguson
_

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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:19:01 +1000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

Tks to all who replied. I appreciate the help. One think though, I read an 
article recently re Census in England that said that the Census information for 
the address was the people who NORMALLY stay their. That could mean that a 
person could be listed at that address on the night of the Census, but not 
actually be there. I was initially under the impression that it was only those 
in the house on the night, but that might not be so. Any thoughts or info?


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RE: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?

[ronald ferguson]

Mary,

Many thanks for the laugh - I'm still chuckling!

Ron Ferguson
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*Over 650 Surnames from 11 Countries*
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http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fergys/
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LegacyUserGroup@legacyfamilytree.com
Subject: RE: [LegacyUG] Grandaugher without parents?
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:40:20 -0400


Just as an example of how this can be confusing –



My grandmother’s sister went back to England from Western New York to visit 
their grandparents.  She is listed in their household in Morebath, Devon in the 
1891 census “on 5 Apr 1891” but she lived in the US, having left England in 
1884.  She is listed as their granddaughter but there is no mention that she 
was a visitor, not a resident.  And to complicate matters, she was the 
informant on the death records of both of the grandparents who died while she 
was there on 25 Apr 1891 and 28 Apr 1891.  Sure makes it look like she lived 
there!



Mary




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