Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
John, By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ From: John Magyari Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John, By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ *From:* John Magyari mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml:/wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml:/wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml:/wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml:/wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
On 11/03/2012 12:07, John Magyari wrote: Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. Surely the aim should always be to enter *accurate* information and you are not doing that. If you are forcing 5 elements into 4, are you implying that, there is a place called Village Town, when in fact it is a place called Village with a place called Town? And if you make a 3-element location fit 4 fields, you are presumably adding an extra comma somewhere which inevitably implies that there is a missing element, but in your case there isn't! Because I include complete addresses in the location field, I have anywhere from 1 element (only know the country) to 6 or 7 elements in a location. If I want to see them grouped together I sort them from right to left. It's not a problem. -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
John, Please see below, From: John Magyari Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:07 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. So you believe in having inaccurate records in your file, merely to fit artificial American situations? Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) Absolutely *wrong* This gives no consideration whatsoever to the accurate location as determined by the in country in which the location is placed. This will perpetuate, what has recently been a decreasing trend, of putting square pegs into round holes. Perhaps America should change its way of recording locations? I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. John, you, of course, can do as you wish, but please do not even hint at forcing your misconceptions onto the rest of us. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   From: John Magyari Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary From: John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   From: John Magyari mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County , Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship , Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County , Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship , Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
From: John Magyari Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:34 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Ideally I'd like to have some locations with 4 position fields and some with 5 position fields. He where I'm confused. I'll create 2 new locations one with 5 fields and one with 4, next 2 lines city, admin, county, state, country city, county, state, country Now I go to View-Master Lists-Locations I do a sort trying each of the following Position 4, Position 3, Position 2, Position 1 also Position 5, Position 4, Position 3, Position 2, Position 1 in both of the above the country fields are in different places of the sorted lists. With a large number of locations some 4, some 5 positions, things don't line up, when sorting country, state, county. Forcing 5 fields to 4 or adding a fifth field to all my US locations, would allow me to sort via any field. Yes it's a kludge to force 5 into 4. But then sorting shows variations grouped together. I would think my rough spec would allow greater input variations. Even for those who have US only locations the ability to add 5th field for some entries, while keeping most at 4 would give ability to add Hospital, City, County, State, Country Cemetary, City, County, State, Country Address, City, County, State, Country City, County, State, Country then allowing one to sort Country, State, County and have things line up. Sorry about the misconception, with the way things are coded and for sorting to work, to me it seems like one needs to force all locations either to 4 or 5 positions. John, Legacy allows up to 9 location fields, and the direction of sort can be changed from left to right. Sorting from the right one can have Country, County, Town (I am using English style), or Country, County, Town, District, or whatever; the point being that to search for a location of any composition is easy – just start from the highest level and work down to the lowest. If one of the fields is missing ie. never existed it doesn’t matter. I suggest that you try it out by going to Master ListSort, and check the box next to the sort button – it won’t change anything and should you wish you can just change it back. No need to force anything, no need for artificial fields, you can put in what you wish, even: Country, County, Parish, Town, District, Street, House. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ On 3/11/2012 7:58 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  Please see below,   From: John Magyari Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:07 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting.  So you believe in having inaccurate records in your file, merely to fit artificial American situations? Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields)  Absolutely *wrong* This gives no consideration whatsoever to the accurate location as determined by the in country in which the location is placed. This will perpetuate, what has recently been a decreasing trend, of putting square pegs into round holes. Perhaps America should change its way of recording locations? I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system.  John, you, of course, can do as you wish, but please do not even hint at forcing your misconceptions onto the rest of us. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   From: John Magyari Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
My locations vary from one (England, say) to six or more when dealing with medieval times in, say, Wales, when I always enter the old kingdom in addition to the modern shire. Sometimes more than six too when I enter a particular abbey or monastery because many are buried there, and I can get the exact coordinates, which are different from those of the town. I never use any other sorting method except the ones on the bottom right, Direction of Sort. So I can have my sort by Abbey, say, or by Wales. CE From: ronfergy@tiscali.co.uk To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:53:13 + From: John Magyari Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:34 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Ideally I'd like to have some locations with 4 position fields and some with 5 position fields. He where I'm confused. I'll create 2 new locations one with 5 fields and one with 4, next 2 lines city, admin, county, state, country city, county, state, country Now I go to View-Master Lists-Locations I do a sort trying each of the following Position 4, Position 3, Position 2, Position 1 also Position 5, Position 4, Position 3, Position 2, Position 1 in both of the above the country fields are in different places of the sorted lists. With a large number of locations some 4, some 5 positions, things don't line up, when sorting country, state, county. Forcing 5 fields to 4 or adding a fifth field to all my US locations, would allow me to sort via any field. Yes it's a kludge to force 5 into 4. But then sorting shows variations grouped together. I would think my rough spec would allow greater input variations. Even for those who have US only locations the ability to add 5th field for some entries, while keeping most at 4 would give ability to add Hospital, City, County, State, Country Cemetary, City, County, State, Country Address, City, County, State, Country City, County, State, Country then allowing one to sort Country, State, County and have things line up. Sorry about the misconception, with the way things are coded and for sorting to work, to me it seems like one needs to force all locations either to 4 or 5 positions. John, Legacy allows up to 9 location fields, and the direction of sort can be changed from left to right. Sorting from the right one can have Country, County, Town (I am using English style), or Country, County, Town, District, or whatever; the point being that to search for a location of any composition is easy – just start from the highest level and work down to the lowest. If one of the fields is missing ie. never existed it doesn’t matter. I suggest that you try it out by going to Master ListSort, and check the box next to the sort button – it won’t change anything and should you wish you can just change it back. No need to force anything, no need for artificial fields, you can put in what you wish, even: Country, County, Parish, Town, District, Street, House. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ On 3/11/2012 7:58 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  Please see below,   From: John Magyari Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:07 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting.  So you believe in having inaccurate records in your file, merely to fit artificial American situations? Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields)  Absolutely *wrong* This gives no consideration whatsoever to the accurate location as determined by the in country in which the location is placed. This will perpetuate, what has recently been a decreasing trend, of putting square pegs into round holes. Perhaps America should change its way of recording locations? I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system.  John, you, of course, can do as you wish, but please do not even hint at forcing your misconceptions onto the rest of us. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John, Â By all means use the American four field standard
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
I don't agree that just because you have a space between two commas, it has to imply that something is missing. Sure it can be, but for those of us who want a very organized approach, it just makes sense because it does allow one to sort by the various divisions, whenever they apply. If you can truly do that with a right to left sort without regard to how many divisions are used, can someone provide some concrete examples on a website or a snippet of your Legacy code off-line or something? I really don't mean to be hard-headed on this, but I've so far not seen sorting work so well without the standard divisions. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 08:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 11/03/2012 12:07, John Magyari wrote: Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. Surely the aim should always be to enter *accurate* information and you are not doing that. If you are forcing 5 elements into 4, are you implying that, there is a place called Village Town, when in fact it is a place called Village with a place called Town? And if you make a 3-element location fit 4 fields, you are presumably adding an extra comma somewhere which inevitably implies that there is a missing element, but in your case there isn't! Because I include complete addresses in the location field, I have anywhere from 1 element (only know the country) to 6 or 7 elements in a location. If I want to see them grouped together I sort them from right to left. It's not a problem. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyari mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:*[LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Jerry and John, Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain the difference, in the context of searching, of the following two searches: England, Lancashire, Eccles, Winton and England, Lancashire, ,Winton Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:56 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyari mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:*[LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Jerry, If a blank between two commas doesn't signify that something is missing, then it signifies nothing at all. In which case, as you say, it is simply there to force a correct location into an incorrect location just to make something look pretty. Frankly I find such constructs both confusing to those unfamiliar with the location, and anything but pretty - I think that they are ugly. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:31 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I don't agree that just because you have a space between two commas, it has to imply that something is missing. Sure it can be, but for those of us who want a very organized approach, it just makes sense because it does allow one to sort by the various divisions, whenever they apply. If you can truly do that with a right to left sort without regard to how many divisions are used, can someone provide some concrete examples on a website or a snippet of your Legacy code off-line or something? I really don't mean to be hard-headed on this, but I've so far not seen sorting work so well without the standard divisions. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 08:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 11/03/2012 12:07, John Magyari wrote: Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. Surely the aim should always be to enter *accurate* information and you are not doing that. If you are forcing 5 elements into 4, are you implying that, there is a place called Village Town, when in fact it is a place called Village with a place called Town? And if you make a 3-element location fit 4 fields, you are presumably adding an extra comma somewhere which inevitably implies that there is a missing element, but in your case there isn't! Because I include complete addresses in the location field, I have anywhere from 1 element (only know the country) to 6 or 7 elements in a location. If I want to see them grouped together I sort them from right to left. It's not a problem. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Examples:Left to Right: Battle of Mynydd Carn, Saint Davids, Deheubarth, Pembrokeshire, Wales Convento de Santa Clara, Tordesillas, Valladolid, Castilla y León, Spain Right to Left: Wales, Pembrokeshire, Deheubarth, Saint Davids, Battle of Mynydd Carn Spain, Castilla y León, Valladolid, Tordesillas, Convento de Santa ClaraWith many thousand locations, I have no trouble finding what I am looking for using only those two options - L to R and R to L. CE From: jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:56:50 -0400 I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Hi Ron. I guess it will never be settled unless they come up with some kind of standard that works for all of us. To me it is ugly to have dis-similar entities sort with each other, but I was hopeful that someone who uses the right to left method would tell me how I could still sort correctly and use the varied system. As far as I can tell, it is not possible, so I can very easily live with the extra commas to create the kind of like sorting that I am committed to seeing. Forcing Europe into the standard four positions - simply works and works well. I'm sorry you are offended by it. For Europe, for example, I never have a division immediately next to England, for example, because I know you never use STATES or PROVINCES and I have reserved the THIRD division from the left for STATES or PROVINCES. Like I say, it simply works and I haven't seen anything that works better, but if you could show me how, I would change. Sorry, I'm just going to let it rest unless a new person asks the question again and then I'll try to contact them off-line. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 06:20 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry, If a blank between two commas doesn't signify that something is missing, then it signifies nothing at all. In which case, as you say, it is simply there to force a correct location into an incorrect location just to make something look pretty. Frankly I find such constructs both confusing to those unfamiliar with the location, and anything but pretty - I think that they are ugly. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:31 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I don't agree that just because you have a space between two commas, it has to imply that something is missing. Sure it can be, but for those of us who want a very organized approach, it just makes sense because it does allow one to sort by the various divisions, whenever they apply. If you can truly do that with a right to left sort without regard to how many divisions are used, can someone provide some concrete examples on a website or a snippet of your Legacy code off-line or something? I really don't mean to be hard-headed on this, but I've so far not seen sorting work so well without the standard divisions. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 08:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 11/03/2012 12:07, John Magyari wrote: Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. Surely the aim should always be to enter *accurate* information and you are not doing that. If you are forcing 5 elements into 4, are you implying that, there is a place called Village Town, when in fact it is a place called Village with a place called Town? And if you make a 3-element location fit 4 fields, you are presumably adding an extra comma somewhere which inevitably implies that there is a missing element, but in your case there isn't! Because I include complete addresses in the location field, I have anywhere from 1 element (only know the country) to 6 or 7 elements in a location. If I want to see them grouped together I sort them from right to left. It's not a problem. Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Not sure what you are looking for, but actually my website does use a right to left sort automatically because it starts with the COUNTRY, then goes to the STATES or PROVINCES, then to the COUNTIES, then to the CITIES or VILLAGES. And Legacy can sort many ways by user choice, as you know. In your example below, my system would interpret Eccles as a STATE or PROVINCE, but England has none, right? Or, if you are showing it as RIGHT to LEFT, then Lancashire would be a STATE or PROVINCE in my system, but it is equivalent to a COUNTY, right? Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 06:15 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry and John, Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain the difference, in the context of searching, of the following two searches: England, Lancashire, Eccles, Winton and England, Lancashire, ,Winton Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:56 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyarimailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:*[LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno Countywlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeshipwlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
On 11/03/2012 21:31, Jerry wrote: I don't agree that just because you have a space between two commas, it has to imply that something is missing. Sure it can be, but for those of us who want a very organized approach, it just makes sense because it does allow one to sort by the various divisions, whenever they apply. You may agree or not, but the fact is that within Legacy, using 2 commas between elements of a location indicates that an element is empty, not that that element doesn't exist. If you can truly do that with a right to left sort without regard to how many divisions are used, can someone provide some concrete examples on a website or a snippet of your Legacy code off-line or something? I really don't mean to be hard-headed on this, but I've so far not seen sorting work so well without the standard divisions. My apologies. Because I've never had a need to do so, I had overlooked that it is possible to sort Legacy locations according to different elements, not just alphabetically left-to-right or right-to-left. (I find right-to-left quite adequate.) -- Jenny M Benson Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
It doesn't matter how many fields you have in your locations. Sorting right to left puts the largest entity first, whatever that may be. I believe that your location examples below somehow got messed up in your message. You have multiple occurrences of Michigan and United States in your locations. Sorting what I believe you have below from right to left would be as follows: England, London, 195 Sunset Blvd., Roosevelt Cemetery United States, Michigan, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 123 Apple Street I don't know why you would have Detroit listed twice, once with Wayne County and once without it. But sorting this way, all of the locations in Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States (with or without street numbers and names, cemetery names, or anything else) will appear together in the Location List. It's really a very easy concept. Try it! You might like it! You can always change it back if you don't like it. Keep in mind, this sorting is just for the display of the Master Location List, not how the locations are displayed in context. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyari mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:*[LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County wlmailhtml://wiki/Krosno_County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship wlmailhtml://wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Jerry, My objection, and that of many other British genealogists, is that forcing out locations to fit a foreign convention gives an inaccurate location. Many of the leading genealogists over here are finding that they are having to spend far too much time trying to influence companies and societies, particularly in the States, to use correct locations which are neither inaccurate nor give an inaccurate impression. You are correct in that we do not have states nor provinces (except arguably Northern Ireland). Lancashire is not equivalent to anything, least of all equivalent to a county, it *is* a county, indeed, it is a County Palatine. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:01 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Not sure what you are looking for, but actually my website does use a right to left sort automatically because it starts with the COUNTRY, then goes to the STATES or PROVINCES, then to the COUNTIES, then to the CITIES or VILLAGES. And Legacy can sort many ways by user choice, as you know. In your example below, my system would interpret Eccles as a STATE or PROVINCE, but England has none, right? Or, if you are showing it as RIGHT to LEFT, then Lancashire would be a STATE or PROVINCE in my system, but it is equivalent to a COUNTY, right? Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 06:15 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry and John, Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain the difference, in the context of searching, of the following two searches: England, Lancashire, Eccles, Winton and England, Lancashire, ,Winton Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:56 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyarimailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com mailto:LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:*[LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields  Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
As far as I know, the way I enter my place names should not give any genealogists in England any problems finding the locations. I find them just fine most of the time with Google or Bing maps and I don't know the locations, of course, as well as you. But looks like I'm doing Lancashire right. In the dictionaries over here, equivalent and is can be interpreted as the same. To each his own, Ron. I know I won't change your mind and I won't change mine without some concrete examples of how things sort properly without a standard. Enough said... Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 07:42 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry, My objection, and that of many other British genealogists, is that forcing out locations to fit a foreign convention gives an inaccurate location. Many of the leading genealogists over here are finding that they are having to spend far too much time trying to influence companies and societies, particularly in the States, to use correct locations which are neither inaccurate nor give an inaccurate impression. You are correct in that we do not have states nor provinces (except arguably Northern Ireland). Lancashire is not equivalent to anything, least of all equivalent to a county, it *is* a county, indeed, it is a County Palatine. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:01 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Not sure what you are looking for, but actually my website does use a right to left sort automatically because it starts with the COUNTRY, then goes to the STATES or PROVINCES, then to the COUNTIES, then to the CITIES or VILLAGES. And Legacy can sort many ways by user choice, as you know. In your example below, my system would interpret Eccles as a STATE or PROVINCE, but England has none, right? Or, if you are showing it as RIGHT to LEFT, then Lancashire would be a STATE or PROVINCE in my system, but it is equivalent to a COUNTY, right? Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 06:15 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry and John, Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain the difference, in the context of searching, of the following two searches: England, Lancashire, Eccles, Winton and England, Lancashire, ,Winton Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:56 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Hi again Mary. I think you are misunderstanding the whole sorting system in terms of how most websites do the sorting. It is not simply a matter of whether you go from the left to right or right to left, it is how the sorting schemes deal with each division. If you want to see where I'm coming from, I welcome you to go to our website at http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org (enter FullGuest as username and merriam as password). Then go to the Places menu where you will that when you click on COUNTRY, then you next can see all the STATES and PROVINCES together in a list, then drill down to COUNTIES, and then to CITIES. This is the way most websites are set up to do sorting and you can't do that without regard to how many divisions you use. I hope you will go take a look and then I think you will know exactly where I'm coming from, even if you don't think it is necessary. Regards, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 07:31 PM, M. Brenzel wrote: It doesn't matter how many fields you have in your locations. Sorting right to left puts the largest entity first, whatever that may be. I believe that your location examples below somehow got messed up in your message. You have multiple occurrences of Michigan and United States in your locations. Sorting what I believe you have below from right to left would be as follows: England, London, 195 Sunset Blvd., Roosevelt Cemetery United States, Michigan, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 123 Apple Street I don't know why you would have Detroit listed twice, once with Wayne County and once without it. But sorting this way, all of the locations in Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States (with or without street numbers and names, cemetery names, or anything else) will appear together in the Location List. It's really a very easy concept. Try it! You might like it! You can always change it back if you don't like it. Keep in mind, this sorting is just for the display of the Master Location List, not how the locations are displayed in context. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries use their own formats, normally the way in which they are written.  Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/   *From:*John Magyarimailto:jmagy...@gmail.com *Sent:*Thursday, March 08, 2012 7:35 PM *To:*LegacyUserGroup
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Sorry, I stated STATES and PROVINCES, but the provinces will be in their own list when clicking on CANADA, since they have PROVINCES and the United States does not.Jerry On 03/11/2012 07:56 PM, Jerry wrote: Hi again Mary. I think you are misunderstanding the whole sorting system in terms of how most websites do the sorting. It is not simply a matter of whether you go from the left to right or right to left, it is how the sorting schemes deal with each division. If you want to see where I'm coming from, I welcome you to go to our website at http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org (enter FullGuest as username and merriam as password). Then go to the Places menu where you will that when you click on COUNTRY, then you next can see all the STATES and PROVINCES together in a list, then drill down to COUNTIES, and then to CITIES. This is the way most websites are set up to do sorting and you can't do that without regard to how many divisions you use. I hope you will go take a look and then I think you will know exactly where I'm coming from, even if you don't think it is necessary. Regards, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 07:31 PM, M. Brenzel wrote: It doesn't matter how many fields you have in your locations. Sorting right to left puts the largest entity first, whatever that may be. I believe that your location examples below somehow got messed up in your message. You have multiple occurrences of Michigan and United States in your locations. Sorting what I believe you have below from right to left would be as follows: England, London, 195 Sunset Blvd., Roosevelt Cemetery United States, Michigan, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 123 Apple Street I don't know why you would have Detroit listed twice, once with Wayne County and once without it. But sorting this way, all of the locations in Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States (with or without street numbers and names, cemetery names, or anything else) will appear together in the Location List. It's really a very easy concept. Try it! You might like it! You can always change it back if you don't like it. Keep in mind, this sorting is just for the display of the Master Location List, not how the locations are displayed in context. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less than MAX ie For Me for Poland city, administration, county, state, country (1,2,3,4,5) If less fields entered enter Nulls city, county, state, country (Null 1 field - admin) city, state, country (Null other 2 fields -admin, county) city, state (Null other 3 fields) state (Null other 4 fields) I will use 4 fields, and in the process converted all locations with fewer positions to 4 position system. john On 3/11/2012 4:04 AM, Ron Ferguson wrote: John,  By all means use the American four field standard for American locations, but for other countries
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Jerry, There is NO standard that would work for all of us for all locations. It is a Master Location List for all locations to be listed together. Perhaps you would like Millennia to provide a 3-field Master Location List, a 4-field Master Location List, a 5-field Master Location List, etc. What would you do then if you have a location that is only the county, state, and country (if in the United States) and then you find out the town? Delete the 3-field location and create a new 4-field location? With one Master Location List, you would modify the existing one to now include a 4th field for the town. I don't believe that it is necessary to force any location into 4 fields or any specific number of fields. Using the Master Location List for all locations in any country as it is works. Perhaps it would serve every one of us better if there was no more reference to 4 fields in the Location List. If it is in the Help file or online tutorials, I would suggest that it be removed. This topic has been the subject of more discussions on this list than any other. Jerry, you and I have had similar discussions about locations before. I have locations ranging from 1 field (Canada) up to 7 fields (Saint Clement Church, 8155, Ritter Avenue, Center Line, Macomb County, Michigan, United States). Now, I'm sure that some people will ask about the 8155 as a separate field. We've already gone down that road before and that discussion can be found in the archives. But as I have said many times before, if you want to force locations in Europe or anywhere else in the world into the so-called standard of 4 fields, by all means, go right ahead. With Legacy's flexibility, you can do whatever you want with your location list. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:55 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Hi Ron. I guess it will never be settled unless they come up with some kind of standard that works for all of us. To me it is ugly to have dis-similar entities sort with each other, but I was hopeful that someone who uses the right to left method would tell me how I could still sort correctly and use the varied system. As far as I can tell, it is not possible, so I can very easily live with the extra commas to create the kind of like sorting that I am committed to seeing. Forcing Europe into the standard four positions - simply works and works well. I'm sorry you are offended by it. For Europe, for example, I never have a division immediately next to England, for example, because I know you never use STATES or PROVINCES and I have reserved the THIRD division from the left for STATES or PROVINCES. Like I say, it simply works and I haven't seen anything that works better, but if you could show me how, I would change. Sorry, I'm just going to let it rest unless a new person asks the question again and then I'll try to contact them off-line. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 06:20 PM, Ron Ferguson wrote: Jerry, If a blank between two commas doesn't signify that something is missing, then it signifies nothing at all. In which case, as you say, it is simply there to force a correct location into an incorrect location just to make something look pretty. Frankly I find such constructs both confusing to those unfamiliar with the location, and anything but pretty - I think that they are ugly. Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ Ron Ferguson http://www.fergys.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: Jerry Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:31 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I don't agree that just because you have a space between two commas, it has to imply that something is missing. Sure it can be, but for those of us who want a very organized approach, it just makes sense because it does allow one to sort by the various divisions, whenever they apply. If you can truly do that with a right to left sort without regard to how many divisions are used, can someone provide some concrete examples on a website or a snippet of your Legacy code off-line or something? I really don't mean to be hard-headed on this, but I've so far not seen sorting work so well without the standard divisions. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 08:52 AM, Jenny M Benson wrote: On 11/03/2012 12:07, John Magyari wrote: Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
How true, but some people need to fit everything into square boxes, even if the shapes are not squares, because otherwise they feel lost. Some need more structure than others to survive. CE From: brenze...@roadrunner.com To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:44:23 -0400 Jerry, There is NO standard that would work for all of us for all locations. It is a Master Location List for all locations to be listed together. Perhaps you would like Millennia to provide a 3-field Master Location List, a 4-field Master Location List, a 5-field Master Location List, etc. What would you do then if you have a location that is only the county, state, and country (if in the United States) and then you find out the town? Delete the 3-field location and create a new 4-field location? With one Master Location List, you would modify the existing one to now include a 4th field for the town. I don't believe that it is necessary to force any location into 4 fields or any specific number of fields. Using the Master Location List for all locations in any country as it is works. Perhaps it would serve every one of us better if there was no more reference to 4 fields in the Location List. If it is in the Help file or online tutorials, I would suggest that it be removed. This topic has been the subject of more discussions on this list than any other. Jerry, you and I have had similar discussions about locations before. I have locations ranging from 1 field (Canada) up to 7 fields (Saint Clement Church, 8155, Ritter Avenue, Center Line, Macomb County, Michigan, United States). Now, I'm sure that some people will ask about the 8155 as a separate field. We've already gone down that road before and that discussion can be found in the archives. But as I have said many times before, if you want to force locations in Europe or anywhere else in the world into the so-called standard of 4 fields, by all means, go right ahead. With Legacy's flexibility, you can do whatever you want with your location list. Mary Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Very impressive site. Please don't take my question/comment as an insult to your research or website. I have one question. Not all places in your lists have 4 fields with commas in place of missing fields. Why is that? I also have one comment. I don't think there is anything odder than to see multiple commas next to each other in your list of places. Seeing Adams, , New York, USA instead of Adams, Jefferson County, New York, USA is an indication of incomplete research. It is so easy to find which county a town/village/city is in, especially with the Internet. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Hi again Mary. I think you are misunderstanding the whole sorting system in terms of how most websites do the sorting. It is not simply a matter of whether you go from the left to right or right to left, it is how the sorting schemes deal with each division. If you want to see where I'm coming from, I welcome you to go to our website at http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org (enter FullGuest as username and merriam as password). Then go to the Places menu where you will that when you click on COUNTRY, then you next can see all the STATES and PROVINCES together in a list, then drill down to COUNTIES, and then to CITIES. This is the way most websites are set up to do sorting and you can't do that without regard to how many divisions you use. I hope you will go take a look and then I think you will know exactly where I'm coming from, even if you don't think it is necessary. Regards, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 07:31 PM, M. Brenzel wrote: It doesn't matter how many fields you have in your locations. Sorting right to left puts the largest entity first, whatever that may be. I believe that your location examples below somehow got messed up in your message. You have multiple occurrences of Michigan and United States in your locations. Sorting what I believe you have below from right to left would be as follows: England, London, 195 Sunset Blvd., Roosevelt Cemetery United States, Michigan, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 123 Apple Street I don't know why you would have Detroit listed twice, once with Wayne County and once without it. But sorting this way, all of the locations in Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States (with or without street numbers and names, cemetery names, or anything else) will appear together in the Location List. It's really a very easy concept. Try it! You might like it! You can always change it back if you don't like it. Keep in mind, this sorting is just for the display of the Master Location List, not how the locations are displayed in context. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields I'm trying to understand that thinking, Mary. But how could that work if, for example, you had the following? Detroit, Michigan, United States Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Michigan, United States 123 Apple Street, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States Wayne County, Michigan, United States Roosevelt Cemetery, 195 Sunset Blvd, London, England You would be ok with United States and England as COUNTRIES, but then moving left, it looks like you would have dissimilar entities together like: SECOND DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan Michigan London THIRD DIVISION FROM RIGHT: Detroit Wayne County (blank) Wayne County Wayne County 195 Sunset Blvd FOURTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) Detroit (blank) Detroit Roosevelt Cemetery FIFTH DIVISION FROM RIGHT: (blank) (blank) (blank) 123 Apple Street (blank) So, what part of this am I not understanding, if so? Thanks, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 11:56 AM, M. Brenzel wrote: If you sort your location list right to left, they will sort properly, even with different numbers of fields. Mary *From:*John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 AM *To:* LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Thanks for everyone's ideas. Some of my Polish time periods use 4 some 5 positions I decided to force all 5 location positions into 4. Having same number of fields helps with sorting. Ideally if would be nice to specify Number of locations field MAX. Then if entered with less fields specify which fields to become null. ie. MaxPositions = 5, LessPositionOrder if less 2,3if less
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Yes, I agree that , , , CANADA might look a bit strange, but it is done because (until more research is done), we only know the person was born in Canada and we want to keep the sorting of the divisions intact. As you probably know, Legacy and other programs allow you to omit the commas when you use reporting functions. I'm not sure which tree you looked at, Mary. When we started out, we had one tree for the general public and one tree for the members (Sequoia), that's why I gave you the password to get in. I have three different people working on the website and I am more particular than they are, so sometimes there are errors. I even make them myself, but the way the place divisions are designed, most errors are easy to spot. So, if you found any place name without the four divisions, please let me know so I can correct it. I am still in the process of looking up all the county information, so that is not complete yet. I'm tired of talking about this subject myself. But the fact is that I'm on the side of the recommendations made by Legacy and most other genealogy programs that I'm aware of. Please let me quote from the 333 page book Legacy publishes: Locations for events should be entered in a consistent format. It is suggested that you use the format of city; county; state or province; country. Yes, they allow us to enter it any way we choose and that is very good, but I find that the folks on this list that are the most militant about it are the ones that insist us FOUR-DIVISION people are dead wrong. We are not wrong! We are following the recommendations of most genealogists (at least in the United States). I'm done with the subject also and I agree that it is a sore spot and we should just drop it. But when people ask the question, I will probably just send them a note off-line to keep out of the controversy. Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 09:01 PM, M. Brenzel wrote: Very impressive site. Please don't take my question/comment as an insult to your research or website. I have one question. Not all places in your lists have 4 fields with commas in place of missing fields. Why is that? I also have one comment. I don't think there is anything odder than to see multiple commas next to each other in your list of places. Seeing Adams, , New York, USA instead of Adams, Jefferson County, New York, USA is an indication of incomplete research. It is so easy to find which county a town/village/city is in, especially with the Internet. Mary -Original Message- From: Jerry [mailto:jerrysemailgro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:57 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Hi again Mary. I think you are misunderstanding the whole sorting system in terms of how most websites do the sorting. It is not simply a matter of whether you go from the left to right or right to left, it is how the sorting schemes deal with each division. If you want to see where I'm coming from, I welcome you to go to our website at http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org (enter FullGuest as username and merriam as password). Then go to the Places menu where you will that when you click on COUNTRY, then you next can see all the STATES and PROVINCES together in a list, then drill down to COUNTIES, and then to CITIES. This is the way most websites are set up to do sorting and you can't do that without regard to how many divisions you use. I hope you will go take a look and then I think you will know exactly where I'm coming from, even if you don't think it is necessary. Regards, Jerry Boor - http://www.MerriamFamilyTree.org On 03/11/2012 07:31 PM, M. Brenzel wrote: It doesn't matter how many fields you have in your locations. Sorting right to left puts the largest entity first, whatever that may be. I believe that your location examples below somehow got messed up in your message. You have multiple occurrences of Michigan and United States in your locations. Sorting what I believe you have below from right to left would be as follows: England, London, 195 Sunset Blvd., Roosevelt Cemetery United States, Michigan, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit United States, Michigan, Wayne County, Detroit, 123 Apple Street I don't know why you would have Detroit listed twice, once with Wayne County and once without it. But sorting this way, all of the locations in Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, United States (with or without street numbers and names, cemetery names, or anything else) will appear together in the Location List. It's really a very easy concept. Try it! You might like it! You can always change it back if you don't like it. Keep in mind, this sorting is just for the display of the Master Location List, not how the locations are displayed in context. Mary -Original Message
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
My question for Jerry is why do you need a standard? For any given country (or indeed groups of countries) the sorting R to L will work because within that country all locations will follow a standard. So if you had a list it might look like: England, County, Town, Street England, Different County, Different Town England, Different County, Third Town United States, State, County, Town United States, Different State, Different County So all the related locations, that is, by country, or English county or USA state are grouped together. What else is required? I ask this from the point of view of what am I missing? I can't see how this would not always work because for any given location you would always have a location with the precision increasing from R to L. That is, if something happened in Australia and that is all I knew then the location is Australia and it would be grouped with all other Australian locations. If I knew it was in Sydney then automatically I know it is Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. As long as I always stick with my own standard for any given country then surely the location list R-L sorting will work? Regards, Gavin... Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
I admit I had not thought about it in terms of each country having its own standard so when you click on a particular country, it would be true to its own standard. I'll have to run some tests and see if that works well and get back at ya. Thanks! --Jerry On 03/11/2012 09:33 PM, Gavin Nicholson wrote: My question for Jerry is why do you need a standard? For any given country (or indeed groups of countries) the sorting R to L will work because within that country all locations will follow a standard. So if you had a list it might look like: England, County, Town, Street England, Different County, Different Town England, Different County, Third Town United States, State, County, Town United States, Different State, Different County So all the related locations, that is, by country, or English county or USA state are grouped together. What else is required? I ask this from the point of view of what am I missing? I can't see how this would not always work because for any given location you would always have a location with the precision increasing from R to L. That is, if something happened in Australia and that is all I knew then the location is Australia and it would be grouped with all other Australian locations. If I knew it was in Sydney then automatically I know it is Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. As long as I always stick with my own standard for any given country then surely the location list R-L sorting will work? Regards, Gavin... Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
Hi John, Ignore the 4-field convention and use as many as you need for each location. According to the Help (Adding or Editing Locations) your restriction is 255 characters. This has been discussed many times before, you may like to check the archives for other input on the topic, and I'm sure others will post too once they've seen your message. :-) Kind Regards, Wendy John Magyari said the following on 9/03/2012 8:35 a.m.: Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? snip Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
John, if sorting your place names by CITY, COUNTY, STATE, COUNTRY or anything else is ever important to you, you probably have to standardize your place name divisions in some manner. I would suggest doing some simple, very small test files and experiment to get your desired results. Jerry - MerriamFamilyTree.org On 3/8/2012 3:16 PM, Wendy Howard wrote: Hi John, Ignore the 4-field convention and use as many as you need for each location. According to the Help (Adding or Editing Locations) your restriction is 255 characters. This has been discussed many times before, you may like to check the archives for other input on the topic, and I'm sure others will post too once they've seen your message. :-) Kind Regards, Wendy John Magyari said the following on 9/03/2012 8:35 a.m.: Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries?snip Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
RE: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields
I do my Polish locations with 4 fields… Anielin, Lask, Lodz, Poland Michele From: John Magyari [mailto:jmagy...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:36 PM To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com Subject: [LegacyUG] How to document Locations in Europe 5 Fields vs 4 Fields Typically for US locations i have 4 FIELDS City, County, State, Country How do others handle European Countries? For example I have a village in Poland Area 1900's part of Austria Hungary Village, District, Province, Country 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Galicia Province, Austria-Hungary Same place in 1940's 4 FIELDS Lipowiec, Sanok District, Krosno Voivodeship, Poland Almost all places in Current Day Poland 1950's through today *5 FIELDS City, Gmina, County, Voivodeship, COUNTRY Lipowiec, Dukla Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland and since 2012 *5 Fields Lipowiec, Jasliska Gmina, Krosno County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, Poland When some locations ideally be 5 FIELDS, do you go back and update those with 4 Fields? With some having 4 some having 5 it's also harder sorting and then viewing similar towns over time periods. thanks, john magyari Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/ Archived messages from old mail server - before Nov. 21 2009: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp Follow Legacy on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegacyFamilyTree) and on our blog (http://news.LegacyFamilyTree.com). To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
