Re: [Libreoffice-qa] 4.4 refactorings and BHS (was: minutes of ESC call ...)

2014-11-14 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Bjoern, all

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen 
bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote:

 Hi,

 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 04:13:33PM +, Michael Meeks wrote:
  * QA (Robinson)

 There is a Bug Hunting Session for 4.4 coming up next week. If you did any
 bigger refactoring or other work that primarily can be assumed to affect a
 specific area of usecases, please add this to:


 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugHunting_Session_4.4.0.0#What_to_test


Maybe it would be easier if I add the test cases to MozTrap? there could be
also a follow-up through the beta/rc/final.

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] 4.4 refactorings and BHS (was: minutes of ESC call ...)

2014-11-14 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Bjoern,

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen 
bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 03:42:16PM +0100, Sophie Gautier wrote:
  Maybe it would be easier if I add the test cases to MozTrap? there could
 be
  also a follow-up through the beta/rc/final.

 Thank you, that would be great! I was suggesting to just edit the wiki as
 telling hackers to enter stuff in MozTrap likely earns us just a few groans
 mumbling yet another login/account.


yes, no problem, I write the tests and upload them.


 Speaking of that: If people come forward during the ESC call with stuff
 done
 for 4.4 we should just put that in the minutes -- we can copy it over to
 the
 Wiki/MozTrap later.


Just let the stuff in the minutes, I read them anyway and will ping the
developer when I don't understand.
Cheers
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Major Release Checklist

2013-12-21 Thread Sophie Gautier
GSM
Le 21 déc. 2013 22:09, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl a écrit :

 Joel Madero wrote (21-12-13 02:12)

  And of course what I meant was minor release :-/ I always get those
  confused but now I know, major.minor.micro
 
  That being said - for major (which only happens what...once every 2
  years? I guess we can move bug hunting session as late as RC3, for minor
  releases, I suppose RC1 will have to do and locales will just be out of
  luck (which is unfortunate). That being said - maybe we can have a
  locale bug hunting session immediately upon release that lasts 7 days,
  any bugs found can be fixed in the first micro release.
 
  Thoughts?

 There is no or little difference between what we call major and minor.
 So I suggest to treat them the same.

 Then as for when to have a bug hunt session, I think the goal is to get
 _many_ people test early. Therefore I would suggest to do it _early_
 with beta1 or beta2.
 The l10n teams can ask people in their community to test the RC1 or RC2

RC1 doesn't contain all the translations as string freeze is due at this
time.  The only version we get to check our work is RC2.

 on l10n issues, so that those can be fixed in RC3.

Hum, RC3 is final so it's considering that we don't need to test l10n
versions. As you said bug hunting is to attract more people and I would
like to give this chance to NL projects too.
But I understand that testing versions before might be more important
Cheers
Sophie
GSM
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] The Wiki-page ReleaseNotes_4.2 requires replacement one image

2013-12-17 Thread Sophie Gautier
Thanks for your feedback. There are several pictures/features that need
update. I was waiting for the RC to take care of the page.
Kind regards
Sophie
GSM

GSM
Le 17 déc. 2013 19:38, ape os...@yandex.ru a écrit :

 Hi, all!

  Look at the wikiPage https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/4.2
 --
 GUI
 - ...
 - Implementing an about:config functionality in Options tab (Efe Gürkan
 YALAMAN):
 --
 It seems to me, the image
 (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Expert_Config.png) needs to be
 replaced, because now the option is located on the tab Advanced - button
 Expert Config Page.

 ape



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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Base Show stopper in LibreOffice 4.2 Beta2

2013-12-13 Thread Sophie Gautier
Coul you upload your database somewhere? Thanks in advance.
Sophie

GSM
Le 13 déc. 2013 23:16, Dan Lewis elderdanle...@gmail.com a écrit :

   I just filed a bug, but I was not given a number for it.  I have a
 database three tables that are related. Table A has a foreign key linked to
 the primary key of Table B. Table B has a foreign key linked to the primary
 key of Table C. I created a form containing these three tables and added
 data to it. Normally, when you change the visible record of Table B, the
 visible records for Table A should also change. They do when using 4.1.4.1,
 but for 4.2 Beta2, they don't.

 --Dan

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reported issues show the tendency to be more user questions ? BSA related ?

2013-07-01 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Cor,
On 01/07/2013 20:01, Robert Großkopf wrote:
 Hi Cor,
 
 Is the process from our French friends - where reports from BSA go 
 trough an email process before being added to BugZilla (that's what I 
 understood from it anyway) - a way to prevent that?
 
 Better we get all the reports we need than not so much reports and a
 more buggy LO.
 I could only write about the Base-bugs. User-questions in this part of
 LO could be answered in a short time (about 2 or 3 days), because there
 are only 240 bugs open and we have a look at the bug-list nearly every
 day if there is reported something new.

As this is still an experimentation, we can't deduct anything right now,
it's a to fresh process. But thanks for pointing it any way, this is
what the experimentation is done for :) Lets take some more time to see
if it's a real help on the BZ side and the community side.

Kind regards
Sophie

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[Libreoffice-qa] Short news about BSA_fr

2013-06-25 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,

Short news from the BSA in French. So it's up and running since last
week. Today, I've documented our process on the wiki for our team [1].
I propose that we let a period of tests/improvements for about 2 months
before I document the process in English.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BSA_NLPProcess/fr

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] New Component - BSA needs updated

2013-06-22 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,
On 21/06/2013 23:12, Joel Madero wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Robinson Tryon
 bishop.robin...@gmail.comwrote:
 
 On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Rob Snelders libreoff...@ertai.nl
 wrote:
 Hi Joel,

 Joel Madero schreef op 21-06-2013 21:09:

 Hi to both of you.

 I've added a requested component to FDO (UX-Advice) for bugs that need
 UX input. From what Robinson said we just need to update a single txt
 file in BSA to get it working properly. Can you (Rob) add this?


 Robinson already fixed the BSA-part. But the wiki needs to be filled in.

 I added the wiki pages on the EN side, so 'make extract-en' works now.
 I think we need to make wiki changes from the FR side, but we should
 be able to update the EN BSA right now...

 
 Okay will do the update and make sure it works. Maybe we need to poke
 Sophie  JBF about the French BSA - maybe best for me first to get EN one
 complete so they know what to put on the French one.

Both Jean-Baptiste and me are reading the list, so just ping us here
when you're ready and we will react :)
By the way, the FR BSA is up and running, I made some tests with
students during a training session this week. Now I need to document it
on the FR side with the workflow we are setting which is still a work in
progress with the team.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] New Component - BSA needs updated

2013-06-22 Thread Sophie Gautier
On 22/06/2013 20:28, Joel Madero wrote:
 On 06/22/2013 04:50 AM, libreoffice-qa-requ...@lists.freedesktop.org wrote:
 Both Jean-Baptiste and me are reading the list, so just ping us here
 when you're ready and we will react:)
 By the way, the FR BSA is up and running, I made some tests with
 students during a training session this week. Now I need to document it
 on the FR side with the workflow we are setting which is still a work in
 progress with the team.

 Kind regards
 Sophie
 :-D Sounds good. I haven't gotten to the wiki yet but will try to have
 it done by end of weekend.

Oh, take your time, I'm still lost in translation ;)
Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-06-10 Thread Sophie Gautier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Rob,

I've added Jean-Baptiste in cc because I won't have the time to take
care of the BSA this week. Jean-Baptiste will you be able to deal with it?
On 09/06/2013 11:00, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Hi Sophie,
 
 Can you look for any weird texts in the French BSA? Can you also
 add q...@fr.libreoffice.org to the fr-qa-list so it is allowed to
 send email to that list.

I think I don't understand what you mean here, should we subscribe the
list to itself?
 
 I think then we can take it in production.
Thanks a lot for your work!
Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Server Install GUI release 4.1

2013-06-09 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Florian,
On 09/06/2013 14:25, Florian Reisinger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Today I released a new version of ServerInstall GUI :)
 Infos / Download here:
 http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/server-installation-gui-4-1/

Is it ok if I document it in French and give this link on the wiki page
I'll write?

Thanks a lot for you work on this, the feedback on the FR list is very
positive :)

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] 4.1.0beta2: no possibility to save a modified doc

2013-06-07 Thread Sophie Gautier
On 07/06/2013 15:24, Pedro wrote:
 Hi Sophie
 
 
 sophi wrote
 The bug he met:
 If you enable Tools  Options  Load/Save  General  Always create a
 backup copy, it's impossible to save a modified document.

 Can one of you confirm this?
 
 Yes, bug confirmed with Beta2 under Win XP x86.

Thanks in the meantime, he has created the bug
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65501
 
 The interesting bit is that option did nothing in 4.0.3.3, i.e. if you
 enabled Always create a backup copy it would save the document with
 changes but would not create ANY backup copy :)

there is a trick with this that I never remember, so may be check in the FAQ
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq/General/140
 
 Just tested briefly with 3.6.5.2 Portable and it did the same as Beta2 (i.e.
 Failed with Could not create backup copy)
 
 Before anyone asks, Yes, I have write permissions on the target folder.

Thanks a lot for you tests :)
Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-06-06 Thread Sophie Gautier
Bonsoir,

J'imagine que c'est un test de post depuis le BSA-FR donc n'en tenez pas
compte :)
I imagine that it's a test, so don't take it into account.

Cheers
Sophie
On 06/06/2013 22:43, q...@fr.libreoffice.org wrote:
 Bonjour,
 
 Il y a une nouvelle soumission de bug déposée en français. L'un d'entre vous 
 peut-il le confirmer ou le traduire pour nous.
 
 Composant: Classeur
 Version: 4.1.0.0.beta1
 Keywords: 
 Sujet: 
 CONFIGURATION: teset
 Description longue: Description du problème : 
 
 Étapes pour reproduire :
 1. …test
 2. …
 3. …
 
 Comportement actuel :
 
 Comportement attendu :
 
   
 Système d'exploitation: Windows XP
 Version: 4.1.0.0.beta1
 
 
 Merci de nous aider,
 BSA
 
 
 
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[Libreoffice-qa] French BSA

2013-06-03 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,

A point on the FR BSA following the minutes, the only piece not working
currently is the sending of mails from BSA to the qa@fr mailing list.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-projects] [ANN] LibreOffice 4.1.0 Beta1 available

2013-05-26 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi,
On 26/05/2013 11:08, khagaroth wrote:
 Is anyone else getting a crash (no error message) when selecting Format -
 Character..., Format - Paragraph... etc. etc.? (Win7 x64)

I didn't test it by myself, but it just has been reported on the QA FR
list, with Format  Page.

Kind regards
Sophie
 
 
 On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Thorsten Behrens 
 t...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 
 Dear Community,

 The Document Foundation is pleased to announce the first Beta release
 of our new LibreOffice 4.1. The upcoming 4.1 will be our sixth major
 release in two and a half years, and comes with a nice set of new
 features. Please be aware that LibreOffice 4.1 Beta1 is not ready yet
 for production use, you should continue to use LibreOffice 4.0.3 for
 that.

 For further milestones towards 4.1, please refer to our release plan
 timings here:

  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.1#4.1.0_release

 The release is available for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X from our QA
 builds download page at

   http://www.libreoffice.org/download/pre-releases/

 Should you find bugs, please report them to the FreeDesktop Bugzilla:

   https://bugs.freedesktop.org

 A good way to assess the release candidate quality is to run some
 specific manual tests on it, our TCM wiki page has more details:


 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Testing/Regression_Tests#Full_Regression_Test

 For other ways to get involved with this exciting project - you can
 e.g. contribute code:

   http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/developers/

 translate LibreOffice to your language:

   http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_Localization_Guide

 or help with funding our operations:

   http://donate.libreoffice.org/

 A list of known issues and fixed bugs with 4.1.0 Beta1 is available
 from our wiki:

   http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Releases/4.1.0/Beta1

 Let us close again with a BIG Thank You! to all of you having
 contributed to the LibreOffice project - this release would not have
 been possible without your help.

 Yours,

 The Document Foundation Board of Directors

 The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
 Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
 Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Test the Photo Album Creator

2013-05-21 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Samuel,
On 16/05/2013 08:52, Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote:
 
 Am 13.05.2013 20:29, schrieb Andras Timar:
 I don't recall that Documentation folks have ever contributed anything
 to help, but I may be wrong. AFAIK they work on User Guides.
 Maybe we should just ask them whether they can do it. Shouldn't be too
 hard, if you wan write a little bit.
 I think that the Photo Album feature is pretty much self-explaining. A
 trivial UI reference help, such as Press the Create button to create
 the Photo Album or You can choose one from the three pre-defined
 layouts, 1 image per slide, 2 images per slide or 4 images per slide
 is not very useful. What help text did you think of? I can easily add
 a help page, if I'm provided with the text.

 Best regards,
 Andras
 Sure, it is self-explaining. But I still think a Help page would be
 helpful, at least it would help people who google for that feature to
 find it.
 Microsoft has a similiar page:
 http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/create-and-share-a-photo-album-HA010338260.aspx
 

Even if it's self explaining, please, write a little content for the
help files. Our users are not as experienced as we are with computers,
so even if it seems to be repeating, it's necessary.
Thanks
Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Cleaning up QA Nabble and Archive folders from Spam?

2013-05-11 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Pedro,
I've added Florian in CC to get his opinion too.
On 11/05/2013 18:30, Pedro wrote:
 Hi Drew
 
 
 drewjensen wrote
 Ok - deleted what was indeed a bunch of spam at the nabble archive -
 added a few emails addy's to the kill list.. looks like only one email
 made it to the main archive. 
 
 I'm not getting any SPAM because I subscribe in no-mail mode. 
 
 However the Nabble page looks a mess
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/QA-f3613148.html
 
 Can you please clean it up?

Drew is currently not available and I'm taking care of Nabble. I think
the spam you see here is the one getting on the list. I can remove all
the spam mails on Nabble, but they'll still be on the archive, see:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/2013-May/004436.html

So I'm not sure what to do in that case?
Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Cleaning up QA Nabble and Archive folders from Spam?

2013-05-11 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Pedro,
On 11/05/2013 19:24, Pedro wrote:
 Hi Sophie
 
 
 sophi wrote
 Drew is currently not available and I'm taking care of Nabble. I think
 the spam you see here is the one getting on the list. I can remove all
 the spam mails on Nabble, but they'll still be on the archive, see:
 http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/2013-May/004436.html

 So I'm not sure what to do in that case?
 
 Thank you for your quick answer. Please do clean up the Nabble page.
 
 If I remember correctly from previous emails from Drew there is nothing you
 (or anybody) can do about the archive.  What is stored can't be touched (it
 prevents tampering with what people said they said ;) )
 But you could improve on the Spam filters so that this type of messages
 doesn't get to the mailing list at all

The QA list is out of our domain, it's on freedsktop.org, so I doubt we
can do anything here, the messages are not posted from Nabble. Even to
moderate these mails on the queue so they don't appear at all.
 
 Florian Effenberger is the right person to help you on this one

Not sure he can do anything at freedesktop.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Role of the QA calls

2013-04-25 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Rainer,

I'm so sad to read that, you're a key person for QA and that's a so long
time I read and learn from your advices that I can't imagine you
leaving. Please, may I ask you to reconsider your decision, we really
want you in the project, not only in QA but as member of our project.
I'm sure the organization can be discussed and modified, sometimes
decisions are taken without knowing all the outcomes and consequences,
but we are able to communicate about that (and there is a point here
about the lack of communication in our LibreOffice project) may be
because we are too short in resources in some areas so we go straight
where we should take more time to discuss.

Kind regards
Sophie


On 25/04/2013 19:40, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 Hi,
 
 in discussions I sometimes read statements like  „...formal vote next
 call”. I think here some clarification is required.
 
 The QA call has no command of the QA community. The calls and their
 participants are not a formal entity of TDF. The only legitimation of
 the results of these calls can be that decisions are wise, well and
 comprehensible founded, what would be an appropriate base that community
 might follow. Only a logic decision, promising success and plausible for
 the other members of the community grant acceptance. The sight of an
 accidental majority of accidental present laymen is irrelevant. TDF is a
 meritocratic institution, not a democratic one, and that's the same with
 the QA community.
 
 So, of course, the calls may coordinate the work of the participants as
 they want. And some of the results are really great, for example the
 rework and additionally new creation of the QA Wiki and web pages. But
 if the talk is about things affecting other people's work or even do
 something what might be called decisions, the results should be
 presented to the community in clear, brief, transparent way like: „Our
 conclusion was that we should do abc because of def, we also thought
 about ghi and jkl, but we dismissed those alternative because of mno and
 pqr. If we don't hear concerns, xyz will proceed”.
 
 So please think about the presentation of the results of the calls. To
 be honest - my regard concerning the QA calls is not good. All the
 decisions are reasoned with we agreed. That's not sufficient, the
 call has to reason why the rest of the community should accept and
 follow those ideas. Currently for many issues (not only related to QA
 calls) I only see actionism what often shows a lack of understanding of
 the complex matters. Because I do not want to compromise someone here in
 the project I choose an example from somewhere else, advice I got the
 last weeks often was very similar to this joke:
 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=122133#c3.
 
 The working sphere in the LibO project caused considerable discomfort
 for me, and because I doubt that this incompatibility can be solved, I
 decided to leave the LibO project. In future I will contribute to Open
 Source PLC Programming Libraries.
 
 Bye
 
 
 Rainer
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [LibreOffice-QA] Conference Call 2013-04-19 - Agenda Minutes

2013-04-21 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,
On 21/04/2013 00:40, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 11:29:59AM +0200, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 Currently I see a tendency that the QA calls generate
 decisions and want to change proceedings without knowing enough
 concerning existing proceedings
 
 You are kindly invited to join the call to improve the situation. AFAIK we 
 even
 changed the timeslot of the call already multiple times trying to accomodate 
 more
 participants.
 
 The advisable way would be to ask the French QA team via mailing list to
 leave some notes in the Wiki how they proceed (or how they plan to proceed).
 If then someone has ideas for improvements he can start a discussion with the
 team within the team (as a newbee there). And only with very good urgent
 reasons (coordinations needs between such sub-communities or whatever) a
 discussion may be started on international level.
 
 This project was started out of the needs of the NL project -- in that case it
 has to ensure in some way to stay reasonably responsive. Note also that a
 mailing list is precisely _NOT_ what is needed here, as then there is nobody
 feeling responsible for it.

This FR QA list is not a discuss list but a working list and each member
invested on QA feels responsible of the work done here. Again, some
teams may work in different ways.

 I would be happy with either Sophie or Charles
 naming one or two people as the contact persons to the NL community in this
 case if they are overloaded themselves (which they are), but not with a 
 mailing
 list -- esp. not one of a community that Sophie describes as NL projects are
 always shy about what they are doing.

You didn't read what I was talking about (culture and communication), I
was not talking about responsiveness and responsibility. I don't think
that overwhelming another member is the good way to go. But as
Jean-Baptiste volunteered, the problem is solved.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [LibreOffice-QA] Conference Call 2013-04-19 - Agenda Minutes

2013-04-20 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Rainer, all,
On 20/04/2013 11:29, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 Sophie Gautier schrieb:
 
 please consider that we (FR group) are acting as a community and not as
 individuals,
 
 Concerning this process
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BSA/Localization
 it seems a bit bureaucratic to me.
 
 Hi Sophie,
 
 I agree. Currently I see a tendency that the QA calls generate decisions
 and want to change proceedings without knowing enough concerning
 existing proceedings. The advisable way would be to ask the French QA
 team via mailing list to leave some notes in the Wiki how they proceed
 (or how they plan to proceed). If then someone has ideas for
 improvements he can start a discussion with the team within the team (as
 a newbee there). And only with very good urgent reasons (coordinations
 needs between such sub-communities or whatever) a discussion may be
 started on international level.
 
 What's more or less the same what Sophie said more friendly.

On one hand I understand that the QA team would like more communication
between subgroups and their team, but the same happens for marketing or
communication. So it's not dedicated to QA, NL projects are always shy
about what they are doing. On the other hand each NL project has his on
way to build his community, sometimes only online, sometimes more during
live meetings, and this is one thing that should be taken into account
when setting general processes.

 
 BTW, @Sophie:
 Is the BSA-Fr already working or at least is there some concrete goal
 when it should work [2]? 

It's not working yet, I think that the e-mail issue is still not solved
and I didn't get news from Rob about it.

If the problems still will need some time for a
 solution, and also may be for bug reports in French language what will
 find their way into Bugzilla also in future, I can offer a Bugzilla
 solution. The qa@fr mailing list will get exactly 1 mail if the list
 will be added as QA-contact or similar. If the 10 key bug wranglers [1]
 know how to proceed that should work nearby 100% perfect. Precondition
 is that the list has a Bugzilla account, the rest are some smart e-mail
 settings for the account.
 
 I prefer such a solution to the current proceeding to add French
 language users to CC.

yes, that's a good solution.
 
 If you are interested please simply discuss on the fr-qa list and send a
 ping to me if I can help.

We have already discussed this on the fr-qa list, so members are aware that:
- we may receive mails in English asking to translate the bug (currently
the bug is translated and should be also checked)
- we should soon receive mail from BSA that will report issues in French
and will need to be checked, searched for duplicates, and reported in
Bugzilla if needed.
As I said I'll document the BSA process in our team when it will work in
French for our members and in English for the other groups who would
like to join. BTW, I think that almost all the QA pages are translated
into French now.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [LibreOffice-QA] Conference Call 2013-04-19 - Agenda Minutes

2013-04-19 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,
On 19/04/2013 18:37, Joel Madero wrote:
 Thanks to Robinson we have a great new system for our agenda and minutes,
 minutes from today's meeting can be found here:
 
 
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2013/April_19

Concerning this item
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2013/April_19#PENDING_ITEM:_Documentation_for_Localized_French_BSA

please consider that we (FR group) are acting as a community and not as
individuals, so instead of adding Charles (who is already overwhelmed
with his TDF activities and not interested in FR QA) add the FR QA list
as a primary contact. You can write in English there and anybody in the
team will react with the emergency your team needs.

Concerning this process
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BSA/Localization
it seems a bit bureaucratic to me. Our team is dealing with bugs
reported from our users list, forums or even directly by organization
like MIMO for years now. We won't report each submissions as soon as
it's reported via BSA if we consider it's not a bug or if it's a
duplicate or if we don't have enough information.
May be before writing such a page we should wait to have the process in
place already for one team, then see what are the usage/culture of the
new team coming to participate and write a general policy from there.
Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] French bug in Bugzilla

2013-03-29 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Florian,
On 29/03/2013 10:16, Florian Reisinger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 IZBot (IRC channel LibreOffice-QA) had some interesting news:
 
 VIEWING: problème dans la représentation de l'axe des X dans un
 diagramme du classeur:
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62895
 
 My question is, how to deal with such bugs, as they are only
 comprehensible for French QA members..?
 Would it be possible to set up a query, which searches after French
 words in Bugzilla? [Okay, this is a little bit rhetorical. It should be
 possible. But will it be checked??]

Just send the bug id to the qa@fr list any time you find one and we will
deal with it.

Kind regards
Sophie


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[Libreoffice-qa] Page for BSA process in other languages

2013-03-21 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,

I'll start to document the BSA process for NLP who would like to join
later, where would you like me to put this page on the wiki ?

Kind regards
Sophie
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[Libreoffice-qa] Explanations on the NL BSA purpose

2013-03-18 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,

Checking for the minutes of your meeting I've seen that you miss specs
on the NL BSA. I'm sorry for that, I thought that has already been
discussed through your team.
So I'll try first to explain my idea clearly on the workflow we have
thought about:
- a user fills information on the BSA in French
- no issue is created
- the content of the submission is sent to the QA FR list
-- at this stage only the FR team is concerned
- the QA FR team checks for the content and tests it
- if this is a bug the FR QA team will check on Bugzilla if the bug
already exists and if yes will comment it, else will create the bug
-- here the normal process of dealing with Bugzilla applies.

The aim of this process is to help your team to deal with the
unconfirmed bugs and help the users report bugs by filling them in their
native language.

The FR project has an active QA Team, able to test and specify bugs but
not all of them are able to report in English. The actual test will help
us to narrow the needs for both teams and if it's proven to work, let
other well formed NL QA teams participate.

In *no way* a bug should be open in French or encouraged to be open in
French on Bugzilla. It's absolutely not the purpose of the process,
almost on the contrary it should prevent to have bugs in French reported
to Bugzilla. I've added a note about the language of Bugzilla on the
Triage for beginners page which is linked on the last BSA page.

I hope that this explanations will clear the process for you. Again, I'm
sorry that was not done before Rob began to work on the BSA translation.

I would like that we test this process, narrow it and add what will be
missing (like the stats you make on BSA reports), and then see if it's a
real help for you.

If you have any questions, or if you disagree with this process don't
hesitate to tell me.
Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Explanations on the NL BSA purpose

2013-03-18 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Rainer,
On 18/03/2013 11:37, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 Sophie Gautier schrieb:
 Hi all,
 
 So I'll try first to explain my idea clearly on the workflow we have
 thought about:
 
 Hi Sophie,
 
 thanks a lot, I see that all my concerns were unnecessary, I simply did
 not have information how that should work.

Again, sorry, my mistake, I thought it had been discussed here.
 
 Is there already a plan how BSA-FR will be reached? Beneath a link on
 the localized Website I think the most easy way  would be via Menu 'Aide
 - Envoyer un retour ...' (Help - Feedback)

Yes
 and the long discussed and
 prepared, but still not existant (localized) Feedback page, where the
 user should have a choice

 
 I want to report a Bug
  ( ) Directly using English Language Assistant
  ( ) French Language Report to French Quality
  Assurance.

I'm not sure how we can achieve that, but that's a good idea.
 
 @Sophie:
 I think you should write down some essentials to the wiki, what can be
 reached by a Link from BSA-FR (How does this work? in French) and tells
 the workflow to the user. I think no more discussion will be required
 here, and complements (if necessary) can be added directly to the Wiki.

I'll do it, but I wanted first to see how it works and I'd like to
comment also the workflow we are putting in place through the FR QA team
to help others.
 
 @Rob:
 I think that many other Languages will be interested in something like
 that (Definitively: German Community). So some hints in the Wiki what
 input you need for creation of other localizations so that you can do
 that with minimum work would be appreciated.
 
 Best regards
 
 

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-website] Re: Fwd: Fwd: Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-03-18 Thread Sophie Gautier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Rob,

This is just to let you know that your message sent through PHP works
well and is on the list (I unmoderated it) if you'd like to check
thanks for your tests and your patience with this :)

Kind regards
Sophie
On 16/03/2013 18:40, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Hi Florian/Sophie,
 
 I don't see any emails in the QA list from the BSA however. What I 
 send this morning was via the commandline. Now I need to send it
 via PHP.
 
 I did try again to post a bug-report in the French BSA. Did you 
 receive it?
 
 Op 16-03-13 08:36, Sophie Gautier schreef:
 Hi Rob, all, On 16/03/2013 08:21, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Op 16-03-13 00:17, Florian Effenberger schreef:
 Hm, it arrived this time. Can you try again for the fr list?
 
 Rob Snelders wrote on 2013-03-15 23:25:
 Ok. Send it again.
 
 I have send a mail to the fr-list at Sat Mar 16 07:20:07 UTC 
 2013
 I got it in moderation, so it seems it works :)
 
 Kind regards Sophie
 
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-website] Re: Fwd: Fwd: Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-03-16 Thread Sophie Gautier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Rob, all,
On 16/03/2013 08:21, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Op 16-03-13 00:17, Florian Effenberger schreef:
 Hm, it arrived this time. Can you try again for the fr list?
 
 Rob Snelders wrote on 2013-03-15 23:25:
 Ok. Send it again.
 
 I have send a mail to the fr-list at Sat Mar 16 07:20:07 UTC 2013
I got it in moderation, so it seems it works :)

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Fwd: Fwd: Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-03-15 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Rainer, Rob,
On 15/03/2013 07:42, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 Rob Snelders schrieb:
 
 Hi Rob,
 
 great step, thank you very much
 
 Wrong link [2]? I only find
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugTriage_InProgress/fr
 
 Is that already working?

No, but very soon now :)
 
 I tried to submit some Bugs with French BSA UI
 * Missing Icon for Android Impress remote
 * Login not remembered for next bug
 * Missing hint concerning mandatory English
   Language for the bug report

No, the language of the bug report will be French
 * Read More link in Writer Help leads to English
   extended help (but that's a really very small
   problem)

Just translated it see here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugzAssHlp_Writer_long/fr
I'll go on with the other composant tonight.
I've also translated the QA FAQ
 
 I got message Le rapport de bug a été soumis avec succès.
 Pour toute question veuillez répondre au mail reçu, but the Bugzilla
 Bug Link is imssing, and it seems there are no new bug reports?

The BSA content is sent to the QA FR list where the FR QA team will
check for the description, the issue reported and will open the bug if
necessary.

Rob, you can activate the link to the qa list if you want, we can make
some more test and have the feedback from the FR team as well.

Thanks again
Kind regards
Sophie
 
 
 Best regards
 
 
 Rainer
 


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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-website] Re: Fwd: Fwd: Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-03-15 Thread Sophie Gautier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 15/03/2013 22:54, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Hi Florian,
 
 I send the email from the kermit-server at The Document Foundation,
 so I don't think my ISP has anything to do with it.
 
 For the record: I am sending with a php-script from the
 kermit-server to q...@fr.libreoffice.org with a cc to myself. The
 email arrives at my address but doesn't arrive at the qa-list of
 France.
 
 I also send emails to the Dutch discuss-list and myself and they
 do arrive (Cor got them as moderator of that list). So I don't know
 what went wrong.

I've done the same and as Rob I received the mail at my own adress but
not the qa/fr list although I'm subscribed to the list. No error
message, no mail in moderation and nothing on the list.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Fwd: Fwd: Bug sur Nouveau dans le BSA français!

2013-03-13 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Rainer,
On 13/03/2013 16:26, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
 sophie schrieb:
 
 So, I've translated the file attached and the wiki page you indicated.
 
 Hi Sophi,
 
 great work! I did some smaller tests and all functions work perfect.

Great thanks!
 
 May I suggest to use a more specific visible heading as I added for the
 English version (Details for Bug Reports)?
 
 This is additional a question for Rob:
 The French Page is on a more early technical state of the art than the
 English one.
 On the English Wiki page you see several Read More links, for example
 for Documentation. The idea was that on the BugReport Details page only
 the basic information should be contained what also will be visible in
 the small BSA Help. So the interested user will not be overwhelmed with
 information. An who needs more detailed info clicks the read more in
 the BSA or in the Wiki to get additional detailed informaton. So for
 Documentation (only for example) you find additional detailed info how
 to report bugs in the Wiki Help on
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugzAssHlp_Documentation_long. And
 I believe there is much more knowledge what should be added to the
 currently rather poor Help pages.

Concerning the Help files, they are currently handled by the l10n team
and the developers, not the Documentation team, I'm not sure it's a
problem if we (l10n) know where to look for when there is an issue with
the help (the help on the wiki is taken from the files on Pootle). If
it's better to handle it that way for you, no problem.

 Such additional info currently is missing on the French Bug Report
 Details page.

I'll take care to align all the FR pages to the existent QA one.
 
 I would like to keep this read more concept, because I prefer some
 structure instead of  1000 lines Wiki pages. But if we want to do so,
 Rob should give advice how such BugzAssHlp_Documentation_long/Fr wiki
 can be handled by the BSA software to get some liséz plus also in the
 Localized BSA.

Yes agreed, and thanks all for the great work :)

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-documentation] De-geeking BugReport on Wiki

2013-02-16 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,

Sorry for the wrong empty mail to you only Tom, I was on my phone.
On 16/02/2013 21:18, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :) wrt coloured backgrounds a pale yellow often helps some people
 with dyslexia.  So, i kinda like the simplicity of green for users,
 amber for more technical pages or internal pages such as minutes of
 meetings and then perhaps white writing on red for devs but i think
 it could easily get really bad visually.
 
 Actually i like Sophie's point about the Documentation Team being
 responsible for wiki's in the documentation section and other teams
 being in charge of their's. 

I didn't said exactly that or didn't formulate it clearly. What I mean
is that if you work on another section, you should make the team (and
the i18n community behind) that you are doing modification on their pages.
I understand your point on simplifying the language for the user, but we
also want contributors. For that we need to simplify the entries, but
also to educate them to our vocabulary, the roles in the community and
the workflows. For me hiding everything behind a general wording is not
the way to educate people or we should manage a step where he get the
knowledge of how things are working in the community and feel include in
that process. It's also, most of the time, picking his interest because
he has known something of how it works at the end of the day.

 If we did go that route then everything
 aimed at normal users could be in the documentation section,
 preferably as sub-sub-sub-pages off the Published page. Unfortunately
 that would mean moving a lot of pages.

Hum, the documentation project has a very important purpose that is
providing documentation and recruiting volunteers for this purpose.
I can't imagine that somebody willing to help with QA, l10, whatever
will go under the documentation project for this (and most of other
production os project are organized the same). There is already the BSA
for the user who just want to fill a bug. If he wants to go further and
speaks English, he will go on the QA project pages and will try to learn
more about it, after either on the list or irc.
The best, in my personal opinion, would be that the documentation
project redesign the home page of the wiki whit the marketing list and
the projects list to make it contributor friendly.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] French Bug

2013-01-05 Thread Sophie Gautier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Hi Rob,
On 05/01/2013 11:03, Rob Snelders wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Can somebody triage this French Bug as I don't know French. 
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58974

Rainer has managed it. When you find such a bug in French, could you
send it to the q...@fr.libreoffice.org list? our team will take care of it.
Thanks
Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC

2012-11-02 Thread Sophie Gautier
On 02/11/2012 16:13, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-11-02 14:12:
 
 I wonder if wiki is good for this purpose or it there is a better
 solutions. I am afraid that we could not increase the limit in bugzilla
 easily.
 
 the wiki is used for that, lacking alternatives, but it is definitely
 not optimal. :/
 
 If you let me know what you need, I can see if we can set up e.g. a web
 service for doing so. Anonymous FTP is a risk becuase everyone can abuse
 us as filehoster then, but would something with authentication people
 can sign up via email, like done on the wiki, be sufficient?

What we need is a very simple way for a French user to send an
attachment. If he needs to subscribe or register elsewhere and elsewhere
again, I fear we'll just have to close the bug because he will never
come back.
 
 Are attachments completely disabled on the q...@fr.libreoffice.org mailing
 list?

 IMHO, a good practice is to allow attachments up to 100kB. Large
 documents should wait for moderator approval. In general, big
 attachments are not a good idea because of the multiplication effect
 (too many receivers).
 
 They're fully disabled on purpose. I'd be hesitant enabling them,
 especially because it also requires some development work on our side
 regarding the filters. Right now it's all or nothing, i.e. no
 attachments or all attachments...

For a list like QA@fr and the process we try to put in place it could be
a good solution however.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC

2012-10-29 Thread Sophie Gautier
HI all,
On 23/10/2012 21:50, bfo wrote:
 Bjoern Michaelsen wrote
 - in theory, it is possible to make the BSA file bugs without the
 reporter registering (Petr/Bjoern)
   - without keeping the original reporter in the loop, bug report
 quality will only get worse
 
 Hi.
 Anonymous bug reports would be more or less useless, unless you are thinking
 about implementing crash platforms like https://crash-stats.mozilla.com
 where anonymous reports are processed and users can check current status of
 their reports along with assigned bug numbers (about:crashes in Firefox for
 instance). 
 Already some bug reports need heavy QA involvement (lots of time and e-mail
 judo skills) to be polished and prepared for interested developers.
 To be honest, with a current backlog,  a lot of them should be RESOLVED
 INVALIDated and not babysitted. 
 I just can't imagine what would happen when we could be flooded by anonymous
 fillings... 
 
 Bjoern Michaelsen wrote
 - the idea to create to send the bug to a mailing list for review
 instead
   of blindly creating a bug is interesting (Bjoern)
 
 In some way DUPS are good (see 3.6 release) - properly DUPED bugs will
 become hot issues in an instant at Most Frequently Reported Bugs for
 LibreOffice page. 
 But please, no more alternative bug reports channels! I would like to see
 all bugs in Bugzilla and not have to search for bugs scattered through
 dozens of MLs or wiki pages. I recently have found that some users are
 already lost with BSA (https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/) and
 Bugzilla (https://bugs.freedesktop.org). Just reviewed few incomplete,
 invalid, duplicate, with strange comments (a person is writing in the bug
 that he do not know what he has written and is writing it once again,
 differently, in the same, initial bug (?)). Seems people do not recognize
 what BSA is all about and by adding a bug there are creating Bugzilla
 account and adding a bug to Bugzilla itself (some do not understand that
 fact). I really would like to see BSA as build-in in bugs.freedesktop.org,
 than as a seperate product (best as this example template adapted -
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOfficeformat=guided).
 Please remember that already LibreOffice as a product has a lot of bug
 trackers out there...

For information, we already have a QA team used to report bugs on our
qa@fr list in order to check it on different plateform and LibO version
with a test document.
Once done, the bug is commented on BZ if it already exists or created by
one member of the team able to speak enough English. So alternative
report channels already exist but are transparent for you. The proposal
made by Bjoern is to make it even more transparent for people working
directly on BZ.
 
 Bjoern Michaelsen wrote
  we could do a testdrive of this with those l10n communities that have
 enough manpower to handle the incoming native language reports:
 - portuguese/brazil
 - french
 - german 
 
 Bug reports not in English are a problem - I think that getting people ready
 to translate the bug and chat with the reporter in his native language is a
 great idea. But only when a good summary comment is added to original bug
 report in Bugzilla. In English. I would CC such people asking for help now
 and then.

I've discussed the process with our FR team and they are ok to handle it.
I've not been able to see if OTRS would be of some help, but we are used
to work together on bugs and deal with them asap. The moderation is
still an issue.
What we need also is a place to get the test/example documents (they are
not allowed as mailing list attachment and Nabble is not always the best
to deal with).
We have to make sure that the bug filled on BZ will be tagged as already
managed by our team (nobody to search on duplicates again or tests on
other OS, version etc.) and that they will marked as confirmed or even
assigned to somebody.

I should be able to attend the next QA call. Let me know if you need
more from me in the meantime.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [bjoern.michael...@canonical.com: minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC]

2012-10-29 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi all,
On 29/10/2012 12:19, Florian Effenberger wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 2012-10-29 08:51:
 
 We really should document that more -- there is only one (mostly
 irrelevant)
 notion of otrs on the wiki and searching the website list only shows two
 obscure references. That should definitely change. But even if you
 have an
 account, you likely would not see how to use it until you have a mail
 queue
 setup.
 
 OTRS indeed lacks some documentation, but was up to now mostly used
 internally by the admins. No worries, however, from my side to opening
 it up to a wider audience.

I'm not sure we really need it. I know that the mails coming the the QA
list will be managed quiet quickly by our team members. But what we need is:
- no moderation
- the possibility to allow attachments (test/example documents) to the list.
 
 Robert is in charge and knows how to create accounts.

So Robert, could you please create an account for me. Using sophie as
a login would be ok for me. Thanks in advance

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [bjoern.michael...@canonical.com: minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC]

2012-10-27 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Björn,
On 23/10/2012 21:46, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
 Hi Sophie,
 
 On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 09:16:32PM +0200, Sophie Gautier wrote:
 On 23/10/2012 17:39, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
 Hi,

 please feel invited to discuss the proposal below. The idea is basically 
 this:
 - let people file bugs on the BSA (bug submission agent) in a few selected 
 native languages
 - instead of creating a bug on bugzilla, send the stuff to the local 
 mailing list
 - the local team:
   - looks for duplicates
   - asks for missing info
   - finally files a translated high quality bug report

 This might help improve both the low quality bug reports we get from the 
 BSA,
 and enable local contributors top get involved. However, it also requires 
 the
 local teams to quickly handle the load.

 I think it's a really nice idea. Please let me the time to discuss this
 with the FR QA team and come with his feedback.
 
 Just another thought: Since the TDF already has an instance of OTRS running 
 at:
 
  https://otrs.documentfoundation.org

and how do I log on this marvelous tool ;-) I can't see any way where I
can request an account. Also, where is it already in use, is it in the
QA project ?

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [bjoern.michael...@canonical.com: minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC]

2012-10-23 Thread Sophie Gautier
Hi Bjoern,
On 23/10/2012 17:39, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
 Hi,
 
 please feel invited to discuss the proposal below. The idea is basically this:
 - let people file bugs on the BSA (bug submission agent) in a few selected 
 native languages
 - instead of creating a bug on bugzilla, send the stuff to the local mailing 
 list
 - the local team:
   - looks for duplicates
   - asks for missing info
   - finally files a translated high quality bug report
 
 This might help improve both the low quality bug reports we get from the BSA,
 and enable local contributors top get involved. However, it also requires the
 local teams to quickly handle the load.

I think it's a really nice idea. Please let me the time to discuss this
with the FR QA team and come with his feedback.

Kind regards
Sophie
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[Libreoffice-qa] FR irc session and Moztrap

2012-09-13 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi all,

This is just to let you know that the FR group is going to have a QA IRC 
(FR channel) session on 3.6.2 RC1 tomorrow and on Saturday. I'll give 
you a summary on how it goes on Sunday.


@Yifan, sorry for the delay answering your mails, I'll have time 
tomorrow to go on with Moztrap. I'll have also time in the next days to 
dedicate to the test migration, but I'll answer you specifically on this 
tomorrow.


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] moztrap registration error

2012-09-12 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Mas,
On 12/09/2012 14:25, Mas wrote:

I attempted to register for the moztrap application and received the
following error

Forbidden (403)CSRF verification failed. Request aborted.More
information is available with DEBUG=True.


It seems you didn't read
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Moztrap/Moztrap_User_Guide

I get this error with Chrome and couldn't log but Firefox is ok for me.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Regression test (Moztrap) test case localization temporary solution.

2012-09-04 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Yifan,
On 04/09/2012 04:35, Yifan Jiang wrote:

Hi Sophie, Petr, all,

Thanks for the discussion and sorry for the late response that I was busy of
other works these days :(

no problem :)


Visually the second one is also my most favorite, so let's start here.

In this week, I will arrange time to update the test cases and make their
format consistent with the prototype 2.

 http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/case/99/


ok, thanks a lot.


@Sophie, As for the 3.6.3 testing, do you have an estimation when would it be
happening? Currently there are only English cases in the database migrated
from Litmus. We will still need some time to migrate other language versions
before arranging tests. Looking back to Litmus, there are 4 languages version
of test cases: en/de/fr/pt-Br, if necessary we could also create Ja section
awaiting for input.


It will be on week 41, but it's more because I need deadlines than a 
really fixed date ;) How do you migrate the tests, would I be able to 
give an hand or is by using some scripts or some magic ? As for the 
languages, I'll ask on the list for motivated teams and will tell you.


As for the l10n related hacking, they need large scope of changes in both
frontend and backend. I would plan at least 1 dev month to do all the stuff
including: Moztrap UI l10n implementing, test case l10n hacking and the
relevant tests before they are good enough to be online.


ok, thanks for this estimation, that will help me in my research for 
funding.


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Regression test (Moztrap) test case localization temporary solution.

2012-09-03 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Petr, all,
On 03/09/2012 17:34, Petr Mladek wrote:
[...]

So the feedback from our team is the 2nd presentation that is preferred
over the others, it seems to be more readable for all of them.
May be we can go for the first presentation until we get more languages
but do not forget about another solution where the steps and the
expected results are grouped for the same language.


Sophie, thanks a lot for getting the feedback.

When I think about it, also the 2nd approach can be parsed by a script.
It is more complicated, probably more error prone but possible. Thus it
can be moved into to really localized framework almost automatically as
well.

So, the second approach is probably the best temporary solution.


Thanks for your investigation :) For information, I will try to organize 
a testing session on Moztrap for the 3.6.3 version with the FR project. 
May be we can try to organize a full session with very few languages, 
like may be DE, JA, FR at the same time?
Also do you have an idea of the time needed (day per man dev) and the 
cost to make Moztrap fully localized (UI + content) ?


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Regression test (Moztrap) test case localization temporary solution.

2012-08-30 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Yi Fan,
On 27/08/2012 07:19, Yi Fan Jiang wrote:

Hi Sophie,

Thanks for following this :) I am looking forward to your further input.

  I'll test more in depth Moztrap tomorrow. For information, I was
  unable to login using Chrome but it was ok with Firefox.

How does it look like when failing to login with Chrome?

There is an issue related with CSRF veirication need to follow in current
our Moztrap instance. It happens in both Chrome and Firefox randomly, though
*refreshing* times of the page will get through the annoying message. Please
see:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Moztrap/Moztrap_User_Guide#Registration_and_Login

Did you meet the similar problem or something else?


This was exactly the problem, and even refreshing didn't work on Chrome, 
I was able to register, but that's all. Firefox was ok, showing the 
error once, but after it was ok.


BTW. I have added you in the test manager group so that you can play with
more features :)


Thanks a lot. I've have a computer crash that prevent me for doing 
anything else than trying to recover everything, but now it's ok and I 
will have time to go further during tomorrow and over the week-end.
Again thanks a lot for working on this and sorry for the delay bring to 
all this from my side.


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Moztrap, some questions

2012-08-15 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern,
On 15/08/2012 13:00, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 12:44:07PM +0200, Petr Mladek wrote:

 2. translate the test case in wiki and give the link back to
Moztrap


I am afraid that it would be hard to maintain and too much clicking.


Maybe we could add a link to the page itself on google translate? For
understanding the testcase it should be good enough (if not we extend the
original description, which helps the english and the localized community?)

I fear manually translated testcases are doomed to fail as they will always be
outdated/incomplete during the timeframe that matters. Using automatic
translation (and tweaking the original so it comes out understandable) might
work though. Automatic translation is by now mostly only a problem, if you dont
control the source.


Imho, that won't work for two reasons:
- behavior is not the same in every language and testing may differ/be 
adapted depending on the local
- UI strings are not the same due to localization, and we are also QAing 
our l10n when we do those tests in our language


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Moztrap, some questions

2012-08-15 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern,
 15/08/2012 15:20, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 02:29:53PM +0200, Sophie Gautier wrote:

Imho, that won't work for two reasons:
- behavior is not the same in every language and testing may
differ/be adapted depending on the local


In that case it is even more important that the testcase describe _all_ the
information for _all_ locales, otherwise there will be a terrible mess with
conflicting feedback (e.g. english testers reporting its fine, french reporter
reporting it is broken, both thinking they are testing the same thing).

Such a testcase _must_ contain the whole behaviour for all locales, e.g.:

1) Open libreoffice
Note: In the low german localization, you are required to mumble Moin while
doing that.


it's not necessary, the people from the team who reports a misbehavior 
is aware of the difference between EN and his language. This is one of 
the first thing you check when you are testing a local environment, 
you've got it in both language every time. And for example, I don't care 
how it behaves in German or when using CJK, etc. If it happens that 
there is a real strange thing, we speak together with the other language 
teams (the reason of the request for a dedicated list) and try to sort 
out a real bug or a problem with the test, just as we do with l10n.



- UI strings are not the same due to localization, and we are also
QAing our l10n when we do those tests in our language


Thats also easily amended/clarified in cases were the autotranslation does fail.
Also I dont think we want to hardcode the expected translations in the
testcases -- that makes no sense at all (as that hardcoding is just as likely,
if not more so, to be wrong or outdated as the product).


Checking/understanding the google autotranslation takes more time than 
doing it straight ;)


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Moztrap, some questions

2012-08-15 Thread Sophie Gautier

On 15/08/2012 17:31, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 04:29:10PM +0200, Sophie Gautier wrote:

it's not necessary, the people from the team who reports a
misbehavior is aware of the difference between EN and his language.
This is one of the first thing you check when you are testing a
local environment, you've got it in both language every time.


Thats a rather dangerous assumption as it severely raises the barrier to entry.
Documenting such differences by having texts that say slightly different things
in different languages is a horrible idea.


Beside the facts that we worked that way for years, if you don't trust 
the people managing the tests and the team, Litmus/Moztrap is useless, 
as they will be the only persons able to understand the test results 
(and the remarks of testers) and compare them to BZ anyway. There is a 
process and an organization where the tool is only a database for us 
(but without it we can't do anything unfortunately).

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Moztrap, some questions

2012-08-14 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Yifan,

On 13/08/2012 12:08, Yifan Jiang wrote:

Hi Sophie,

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 11:14:34AM +0200, Sophie Gautier wrote:

Hi all, Yifan,

So after a long time (sorry for this long absence), I would like to
come back to Moztrap and try to help to test it.


Welcome back :) Please let me know if you got problem of registration.


My first question, the most important for us, is there now a
possibility of localization for :
- the tests
- the environment
 From what I see on the todo list Yifan has written long ago the point :
  5. Look into i18n and l10n of Moztrap, we need translation system
for both test cases and Moztrap UI.
Does it mean that it's possible, or does it mean it's not yet
possible or that we need to find/define a translation process?


I ever had a talk with the Moztrap developers and it seems neither of the
localization plans has been on the rador yet :( It needs some deep hacking of
the code if we want to do that particularly to Libreoffice. So it is not easy
to handle the localization in Moztrap yet.

One way to workaround is to mix localized wording of test cases into the
existing English ones, as what we did for Litmus. But it is rather time
consuming to translate and maintain, because Moztrap split test cases into
steps. With this method, we need to *manually* maintain translation for each
test steps and their corresponding expected results. Besides, for some of the
test cases, localized version might not share exact steps with the English
version. So I did not put anything localized to the Moztrap test case base
yet.

I feel it is possibly better to maintain translation version of test cases in
a different data set, either by hacking the existing Moztrap database or
putting the translation for test cases to somewhere else like wiki, then
manually put the link back to Moztrap original English test case.

Any way, we currently really need more people to get involved, try Moztrap,
make contribution and share ideas :)

One question is can we termporarily survive with pure English wording test
cases, though they are allowed to choose running under any localizations?


I didn't replied yesterday because I wanted to think more about it. I 
feel that investing work (and you already have invested a good amount of 
work on it) in a tool dedicated to tests for average users in the 
language communities that is not localizable (or with lot of 
difficulties) is a waste of time. We will miss our goal and take the 
risk to provide one more tool (after Litmus) that is not suitable to the 
people wanting to contribute and will discourage them.



My second question: is there a possibility to store sample documents
on Moztrap.


Yes, one of the moztrap's nice feature is attachement support per test case :)


that's a good point, but unfortunately less important that localization.
Thanks for your quick answer, I will continue to seek a solution for 
these manual tests in all languages.


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] feedback on the fr bug hunting session

2012-07-09 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern,
On 09/07/2012 11:25, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi Sophie,


On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 10:47:27AM +0200, Sophie Gautier wrote:

Some information on the bug hunting session in the FR community,
there has been 7 persons participating during the two days (they
even go on on Sunday :).
I'm now collecting feedback to draw a better process for our group.
All the issues found have been filled, reopened or commented.


Thats pretty amazing and an outstanding result! Is there a possibility to get
one or two of the participant on this list as a contact to the international qa
community?


That will come :) but their is still some work to do at a local level to 
grow and have a strong team able to work on his own. This is of course 
part of my goal to bring more members to bridge with the international 
qa community.


Kind regards
Sophie
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[Libreoffice-qa] FR QA team

2012-07-03 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi all,

Just to let you know that I'm organizing a bug hunting session in 
French, aiming the 6th and 7th, but I think it will be too short in time 
(joining irc, installing the version in parallel, etc... need time). 
However, it's a work in progress and we should have a team of 10 people 
testing the 3.6. My goal is to transform it in a regular testing team 
(and to enlarge it of course ;).

I'll report our progress here.
Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] [libreoffice-projects] minutes for the LibreOffice QA call 2012-04-06 1400UTC

2012-04-10 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Cor,
On 10/04/2012 22:45, Cor Nouws wrote:

Hi,

Bjoern Michaelsen wrote (06-04-12 19:55)


- CaseConductor evaluation
[...]
- Rainer: we need better documentation on the why of Litmus/MozTrap
[...]
- Kendy: Need for regular manual testing for update scenarios
[...]
- given the limited current reach of Litmus, we might propagate in blogs
too
- we really need to make structured manual a lot more visible for 3.6


I look forward to the outcome of the Litmus/MozTrap evaluation and
improvements in this area. It will help people run the tests more
easily. However, we must not forget that it's just that and not more.


If it's easy, it will attract people too. QA is frightening for a lot of 
users because it looks like technical when it's not. The tool should 
help that and currently Litmus is not fulfilling that.

Evaluation of the current situation showed some lack of available time
with people considered to work with it (and other QA topics). Thus if we
forget that, and only do improve the tooling... it might turn out to be
fooling our selves.
In that case we know that we can't extend people time, so let extend the 
number of contributors by providing an easy way to participate. Tools 
are only tools but this is what our contributors are playing with, see 
Pootle for example, it's the same here, it should be as easy as and as 
flexible as Pootle.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] LibreOffice QA call 2012-04-06 1400UTC

2012-04-05 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern, all,

Unfortunately I won't be able to attend tomorrow.
Bjoern did you get some time to install Case conductor locally or shall 
I ask on our website list to have a staging session of it so that we are 
free to play with it an evaluate it for next week?
Currently the access on Moz staging server is really limited and I can 
ask to have some rights granted, but I don't know if this is what we 
want, what do you think?

Kind regards
Sophie
On 05/04/2012 17:14, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi there,

this is the reminder that we have the next QA call on Friday:

  2012-04-06 1400UTC

Given that this is a holiday in a lot of places (I realized that too late) we
might end up with only a few people on the call. Hopefully, we can counter that
by discussing everything we missed out on the Hackfest.

prototype agenda:

  * action item review
   - Check if test documents are URLs properly distributed to Checkbox (Bjoern)
   - Update/Create active triagers wiki page (Cor/Rainer)
   - Publish Rainers charts'n data on blog/planets (Cor)
   - collect further ideas for spending a dedicated resource (Cor/Rainer)
 -  blocked: to get a concise list need to make a CaseConductor/Litmus
 choice
   - Set Cor up with the Community/Forum maintainers at the distros
 to better propagate Hackfests, Bug Hunting Sessions etc.
 (Petr, Caolan, others?)
   - Walkthrough setup at Hackfest to find out what need better docs
 (Bjoern/Rainer)
   - Setting up a ready-to-go VirtualBox with everything installed would be
 cool (Bjoern/Korrawit?)
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47648
   - automated test docs: really straightforward for Calc, just needs more
 CSV test documents (all)
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47667

  * structured manual testing
- first checkbox results maybe?
- CaseConductor/MozTrap evaluation

  * bug wrangling
- generic bug tagging
  
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Adding-RTL-Keyword-td3872406.html

  * community building/communication
  * automated testing
  * bibisect for 3.5 and 3.6 master

Dial-in numbers for countries outside Germany can be found at:
http://www.talkyoo.net/main/telefonkonferenz_internationale_rufnummern

Dial-in numbers inside Germany are:

 +49 40 18881000 (Hamburg, landline)
 +49 40 95069970 (Hamburg, landline)
 +49 89 60893 (Munich, landline)
 +49 1570 3336000 (vistream mobile network)

Room:

 Room number: 53 71 38
 No participant PIN is required
 All calls will be recorded
 All participants can speak

Note that you can also use Skype to join the call.

Best,

Bjoern
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Investigating Caseconductor for next QA call

2012-03-30 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern, all,
On 30/03/2012 10:41, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi Pedro,

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 04:16:59AM -0700, Pedro wrote:

Your comments make perfect sense. I am available to help with a serious
comparison of Litmus vs Caseconductor.


Did you already have a chance to have a look at:

  https://caseconductor-dev.allizom.org/
  http://readthedocs.org/docs/case-conductor/en/latest/index.html

to see if it would work for us? As said I had a testaccount, but failed to find
out how to:

  - report a test result
  - create a new test case

which are the most basic and important tasks. I might be that my account simply
didnt have the permissions to do so, but that would need clarification -- best
by working directly with the CaseConductor guys.

Would it be possible to give us a first overview of Litmus vs. Caseconductor by
Friday next week for the next QA-call(*)? That would be great, as it would help 
us
push forward the decisions on how to proceed with test case management!

Im also CC'ing Rimas, as he was looking forward to Caseconductor as a possible
replacement. @Ritmas: Would you be interested in joining Pedro in investigating
this?


I'm not Pedro or Rimas, but I would have time to have a look for the end 
of next week. If you think I'm not enough skilled, no problem.


Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Ubuntu/Canonical doing more manual testing for LibreOffice?

2012-03-02 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Bjoern, all,

I've added Nicholas in copy of this mail
On 02/03/2012 13:50, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi Sophie, all,


On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 11:29:32AM +0100, Sophie Gautier wrote:

So, I'm ready to work on this, but as underlined by Yifan, it would
be interesting for us to keep also our Litmus system up to date and
synchronized because it's used under several OS and languages so it
has a real interest here.
The ability of syncing the 2 test bases would be really great as it
would avoid duplicating the work for the maintainers. Anyway, I'm
here to help, so don't hesitate to tell me what to do :-)


Syncing the testbases will be nifty, but for now we should concentrate on
getting the existing testcases into checkbox. Beta2 is on 2012-03-29(*) and we
should make sure that we have as much tests in there as possible by then as
there will be widely distibuted calls for testing like this one:

http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2012/03/opportunity-manual-application-testing.html

then and we really should not miss that opportunity. We can discuss
syncronizing testcase bases etc. later. The time window is between 2012-03-29
and 2012-04-26 should get what ever testing we can out of that.  A we can
discuss creating a nifty sync solution after that as we will have some time to
the Libreoffice 3.6 and Ubuntu p+1 releases.

So: just getting the tests over to checkbox now (manually or by whatever means)
should have priority.

Do we agree there?


ok, but I won't install ubuntu, setup an environment on launchpad and 
install bazaar (or do I have to? is it mandatory?). So a little help so 
that I don't spend all my week-end on this would be:

- is this link the good one for test formatting?
http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/CaseAndPlanGuidelines
- are the tests on Litmus good enough or should I write more?
- on this page, there is several tests for Ubuntu/OOo, Kubuntu/OOo, 
Applications/LibreOffice, etc. What is the one I choose


Thanks in advance,
Kind regards
Sophie


Best,

Bjoern


(*) https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-12.04-beta-2
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] test cases quality; was: Ubuntu/Canonical doing more manual testing for LibreOffice?

2012-03-02 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Petr,

On 02/03/2012 16:03, Petr Mladek wrote:

Sophie Gautier píše v Pá 02. 03. 2012 v 14:33 +0100:

- are the tests on Litmus good enough or should I write more?


Great point. We have only very few test cases in Litmus (less than 50)
and the quality is debatable :-/

For example, I see test cases:

+ create empty Writer document
+ create empty Calc document

I do not think that we need manual tests for this. This basic operation
is part of any other complex test. In addition, exactly this is tested
within few seconds using the smoketest.


Another bunch of tests sounds like:

+ Translation check of creating a new database
+ Translation check when creating a table in a database
+ Translation check for Formula Editor


Well, I don't think you get the purpose of what Litmus was done for. It 
was for community testing at large, so very easy and short tests to 
bring interest to the testing. It should have help also localizer to 
test there version. Just as we did by the past and it worked well. Some 
spend only 30mn others more that 3 hours because the online tests was 
only the very basis of larger tests with a set of documents. So it's 
more about the life of a team, than only a basic test. Unfortunately we 
don't have the good tool here and no money to develop what could suite 
our needs. Mozilla was developing a tool but it's not yet done either.



Of course, we need to check that the application is translated but we
can't check every dialog manually.


We had that by the past with the VCLTestool.
 Instead of the above particular

dialogs, we should check that different elements are localized, for
example:

+ File/New menu - because it consists of optional components
   that are added from xml registry files
+ main menu and one submenu
+ a dialog with tabs, check boxes, combo boxes, itemized list,
   and other elements
+ help - because it using another technology than the other
  dialogs
+ KDE/GNOME safe dialog because they are done another technology
  as well
+ extensions - because the translation is done slightly
 different way

If one submenu is localized, the other submenus should be localized as
well if the strings are in pootle.


It's not about localization only (but it's good for CTL and CJK) , but 
also about the design of the dialog that allow to see the whole string 
and then adapt the dialog or the l10n. It's not about to see if it 
works, it's about the quality of the l10n and the design.



IMHO, we need to discuss what test cases make sense and create a
reasonable test cases first.

We are still looking for an experienced QA guy who could step in, teach
people and drive this forward.


So lets wait for that guy.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] test cases quality; was: Ubuntu/Canonical doing more manual testing for LibreOffice?

2012-03-02 Thread Sophie Gautier

Petr,

First, I don't take anything personal in your mail. I disagree with you 
but it's nothing personal :)


On 02/03/2012 17:26, Petr Mladek wrote:

Sophie Gautier píše v Pá 02. 03. 2012 v 16:20 +0100:

Another bunch of tests sounds like:

+ Translation check of creating a new database
+ Translation check when creating a table in a database
+ Translation check for Formula Editor


Well, I don't think you get the purpose of what Litmus was done for. It
was for community testing at large, so very easy and short tests to
bring interest to the testing. It should have help also localizer to
test there version. Just as we did by the past and it worked well. Some
spend only 30mn others more that 3 hours because the online tests was
only the very basis of larger tests with a set of documents. So it's
more about the life of a team, than only a basic test. Unfortunately we
don't have the good tool here and no money to develop what could suite
our needs. Mozilla was developing a tool but it's not yet done either.


I appreciate that you want to teach people using Litmus. Though, I am
afraid that you did not get my point.


I don't want to teach them using Litmus, I want them to get an interest, 
get fun and don't feel harassed by the task.




Please, read the above mentioned test cases. One test describe how get
into one dialog and asks to check that all strings are translated.
Another test cases describes how to reach another dialog where the
strings need to be checked
The check for the translation is a second purpose of the test, the first 
purpose is to check the basics functionalities such as Save as, Open, 
Copy, Past... etc.


IMHO, there are hunderts or thousands of dialogs. IMHO, we do not want
a test case for every single dialog. We do not have enough people who
could create, translate, and process all such test cases.


We are testing functionalities and by the same way are checking for 
basic i18n conversion (numbers, accentuated characters, date, size of 
the string...)


Also I am not sure if would be effective to use Litmus for this type of
testing. It might take few seconds to check that all strings are in a
given language. It might take longer time until you enter your result in
Litmus and select another test case.


Litmus should be an entry for approaching QA for the community at large 
i.e. no language barrier, no technical barrier, a team behind to guide 
you further in more complex testing. Unfortunately, it's not a tool 
adapted to our needs.


IMHO, we could do much better job here. If we have strings translated in
pootle and the build works correctly, all translated strings are used.
By other words, if you have translation for 1000 dialogs in pootle, it
is enough to QA only 1 dialog. The strings are extracted from pootle by
a script and applied in sources by another tool. If one string is used,
others are used as well[*].


As said, I'm not speaking about translation. The contents of the test 
may confuse you when it speaks about localization, but it's only a 
second purpose of the test, a *while you are here*, please check that 
the dialog has the good special characters in your language


You might say that you need to check layout of the strings that they are
not shrinked. Well, we need not check all strings here. It might be
enough to check only strings that look risky (translation is much
longer) than the original string.


No, it's not enough, because most of the time, the team doing the 
translation is one person only, so you can't remember where and when the 
translation is longer than the original, and for some languages it's 
always true.


You might say that we should check quality of the translation. I mean if
the translation makes sense in the context of the given dialog. Well,
this is not mentioned in the current test case. Also, I am not sure if
it is worth the effort. We do not change all strings in every release.
So, we do not need to check all translations.


When you see the amount of strings for the number of people doing 
translation, having a proof reading of the dialog during QA is not a 
luxury ;) But I agree, as said it's not the first aim of the tests




Of course, we need to check that the application is translated but we
can't check every dialog manually.


We had that by the past with the VCLTestool.


Hmm, how VCLTesttool helped here? Did it checked that a string was
localized? Did it checked if a translation was shrinked or confusing?


It took a snapshot of each dialog, menu, submenu, etc. When you want to 
reach a certain amount of quality for you version, it was very useful 
because you were sure that everything was checked. I don't say that you 
run it on each version but I did it on each major OOo versions.



   Instead of the above particular

dialogs, we should check that different elements are localized, for
example:

+ File/New menu - because it consists of optional components

[Libreoffice-qa] Thread on QA done by l10n teams

2012-03-02 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi all,

Just to get some information about l10n and QA and also because it's a 
way to reach more language community members, I've done a quick poll 
about the tests that are run on the builds, see the thread here :

http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/msg04226.html

I'll send a summary of the responses during the week-end
Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] test cases quality; was: Ubuntu/Canonical doing more manual testing for LibreOffice?

2012-03-02 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi Petr,
On 02/03/2012 19:21, Petr Mladek wrote:

Sophie Gautier píše v Pá 02. 03. 2012 v 18:02 +0100:

Petr,

First, I don't take anything personal in your mail. I disagree with you
but it's nothing personal :)


I hope that we could learn from each other :-)


yes :)



On 02/03/2012 17:26, Petr Mladek wrote:

I appreciate that you want to teach people using Litmus. Though, I am
afraid that you did not get my point.


I don't want to teach them using Litmus, I want them to get an interest,
get fun and don't feel harassed by the task.


Sure. This is my target as well. The translations checks looked boring
on the first look.


QA has a great potential to get boring ;)



We are testing functionalities and by the same way are checking for
basic i18n conversion (numbers, accentuated characters, date, size of
the string...)


Ok, so one example of the current test:

--- cut ---
Name: Translation check of creating a new database

Steps to Perform:

*Open a new database file (New → Database) and check [Create a
 database] then click on Next button.

   * Check [Yes, I want the wizard to register the database] and
 [Open the database for edition] and click on Finish.
   * Enter a name for the database (using special characters in your
 language) in the dialog box and click OK.

Expected Results:

   * the database wizard open: all strings in the dialog box and
 window are correctly localized to your own language.
--- cut ---

Ok, it checks translation and functionality.

Do we really need to check the functionality in all 100 localizations?


It's only checked in 5 or 6 language, even less if you look at the poll 
I've ran on the l10n list.



IMHO, if the database opens in English, it opens in all licalizations.
We do not need to force 100 people to spend time on this functional
test.

Do we need to check translation even when the strings were not changed
between the releases?


yes, because the amount of strings in the database is really big and you 
need more than two eyes to check for the quality.


=  I strongly suggest to separate translation and functional checks. It
is very ineffective to test them together.


you spare some resources, most of the time tests are done by people in 
their native language. Do you want to run them only in English?


Thanks to Rimas, we could mark test cases as language dependent and
independent, so we have a great support for this separation.

Yes but again, this won't change a lot about the translation of the test 
cases, testers will need to run them in their language.



Litmus should be an entry for approaching QA for the community at large
i.e. no language barrier, no technical barrier, a team behind to guide
you further in more complex testing. Unfortunately, it's not a tool
adapted to our needs.


I agree with you. I just say that many of the current test cases sounds
crazy as they are and might point people in a wrong direction.


yes, this is why Litmus is not adapted.




As said, I'm not speaking about translation. The contents of the test
may confuse you when it speaks about localization, but it's only a
second purpose of the test, a *while you are here*, please check that
the dialog has the good special characters in your language


Yes, it is confusing because they mix the translation and functional
tests. All I want to say is that it is not effective and we should not
go this way.


Ok lets try without checking for the translation, we can remove the 
specific directions about language in the test.




No, it's not enough, because most of the time, the team doing the
translation is one person only, so you can't remember where and when the
translation is longer than the original, and for some languages it's
always true.


We could use some scripting here. Andras is interested into the
translations stuff. I wonder if he has time and could help here.



You might say that we should check quality of the translation. I mean if
the translation makes sense in the context of the given dialog. Well,
this is not mentioned in the current test case. Also, I am not sure if
it is worth the effort. We do not change all strings in every release.
So, we do not need to check all translations.


When you see the amount of strings for the number of people doing
translation, having a proof reading of the dialog during QA is not a
luxury ;) But I agree, as said it's not the first aim of the tests


Sure. On the other hand, checking 1000 dialogs because you changed only
20 of them is not luxury as well.


agreed




We had that by the past with the VCLTestool.


Hmm, how VCLTesttool helped here? Did it checked that a string was
localized? Did it checked if a translation was shrinked or confusing?


It took a snapshot of each dialog, menu, submenu, etc. When you want to
reach a certain amount of quality for you version, it was very useful
because you were sure that everything was checked. I don't say that you
run it on each version but I

Re: [Libreoffice-qa] manual testing

2012-02-27 Thread Sophie Gautier

On 27/02/2012 11:44, Pedro wrote:


Sophie Gautier wrote


Just a note, the tests that we run under Litmus are for all systems, you
can find them here
https://tcm.documentfoundation.org/
anybody is invited to participate in English or in his mother language,
no problem.



Oops, wrong example :)
But still, it isn't a tool to be run _under_ Windows (from my understanding
of Litmus, I confess I haven't tried it)


No, Litmus is an online tool to manage manual test cases. It was 
developed by the Mozilla team, and we (Rimas and Yifan) have adapted it 
to our needs. It manages all kind of tests and different languages. So 
all OS/versions/languages can be represented in the tests.
It's really simple to use for the tester, he just has to reproduce what 
he is reading on the Litmus site into LibreOffice and then mark the test 
as passed, skip or failed, nothing more :)


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Ubuntu/Canonical doing more manual testing for LibreOffice?

2012-02-24 Thread Sophie Gautier

Hi all,
On 24/02/2012 11:12, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:

Hi Sophie, Cor, QA-List

please see:

  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2012-February/003745.html

this is an opportunity to get more structured manual testing done on
LibreOffice. Could you have a look if you could help out coordinating this with
our own efforts to get LibreOffice tested even better?


Sorry, I realized I only answered to Bjoern, that was not intended. 
Although I don't spend much time on QA these last weeks (far less than I 
would like to), I'll have a look through the week end and give my 
feedback here. I'm not sure I'll have time to dedicate to this, but I'll 
try to find it if nobody jump in.


Kind regards
Sophie
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