Re: Changing from percussion clef to treble clef

[Carl Sorensen]

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carl.d.sorensen=gmail@gnu.org 
 on behalf of Richard 
Cookson 
Date: Monday, July 8, 2024 at 12:05 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org 
Subject: Changing from percussion clef to treble clef
Hi,
I am trying to write a percussion part with a mix of untuned and tuned 
percussion, however, when I switch from percussion clef back to G clef, all the 
notes subsequently are shown as the same pitch (b), see screenshot below, the 
final bar is supposed to be as follows:
\clef G \relative c { a16->\f ^\markup "Glockenspiel" g-> f8-> d->
}

[cid:ii_1909383f3509d4716c51]

Any advice on how to get the notation table back to the default would be 
appreciated.

Regards,


Richard,

Please share your code so we know what you have done.  That way we’ll be able 
to better help you.

See https://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html for suggestions on how to best do 
this.

Thanks,

Carl

Re: Changing from percussion clef to treble clef

[William Rehwinkel via LilyPond user discussion]

Dear Richard,

If I do something like the following, using a regular Staff instead of 
RhythmicStaff and using "percussion" staff (it acts like alto clef), I 
can write different notes. Is this something like what you were hoping 
to do? Sorry, I don't know the entire context of the problem you were 
having. If this isn't correct, could you send us a minimum code example 
which shows the problem?


Thanks,
-William

% --
\version "2.25.16"

\new Staff \with {\clef percussion } \compressMMRests \relative c' {
  R1 | \time 3/4 R2.*2 | \time 4/4 R1 | r2 r8 g8 r4 | R1*3 | \time 2/4 
R2*3
  \clef G \relative c'' { a16->\f ^\markup "Glockenspiel" g-> f8-> d-> 
} % relative c'' instead of c?

}
% --


On 7/8/24 14:03, Richard Cookson wrote:

Hi,
I am trying to write a percussion part with a mix of untuned and tuned 
percussion, however, when I switch from percussion clef back to G clef, 
all the notes subsequently are shown as the same pitch (b), see 
screenshot below, the final bar is supposed to be as follows:

\clef G \relative c { a16->\f ^\markup "Glockenspiel" g-> f8-> d->
}




Any advice on how to get the notation table back to the default would be 
appreciated.


Regards,

Richard.


--
William Rehwinkel (any pronouns)
Juilliard School '26 - Oberlin Conservatory '24
will...@williamrehwinkel.net - https://williamrehwinkel.net
PGP Public Key: https://ftp.williamrehwinkel.net/pubkey.txt


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Changing from percussion clef to treble clef

[Richard Cookson]

Hi,
I am trying to write a percussion part with a mix of untuned and tuned
percussion, however, when I switch from percussion clef back to G clef, all
the notes subsequently are shown as the same pitch (b), see screenshot
below, the final bar is supposed to be as follows:
\clef G \relative c { a16->\f ^\markup "Glockenspiel" g-> f8-> d->
}




Any advice on how to get the notation table back to the default would be
appreciated.

Regards,

Richard.

RE: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Kenneth,

1) Move Tempo to rh_one;
2) Change all "grace" to "acciaccatura".
See attachment.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of 
Kenneth Wolcott
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 12:34 PM
To: Leo Correia de Verdier 
Cc: Lily Pond 
Subject: Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

Hi Leo;

  Thanks again for your help.

  I have the "\grace s8." now in all three of the voices that do not have the 
"\acciaccatura", yet the problem persists.

  I'm not sure how I would insert the "\grace s8." into my \global variable.  
I'm sure that is obvious, but I don't grok it.

  I have attached my current Lilypond source, pdf output from Lilypond and the 
original pdf file.

Thanks,
Ken

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 1:36 AM Leo Correia de Verdier 
 wrote:
>
> Now that I am at the computer and have seen the .ly file I would recommend 
> having them in the \global variable. (As you inferred, but just to be clear 
> for anyone else reading this thread, it should be \grace s8. in my first mail 
> in this thread).
>
> > 21 feb. 2023 kl. 10:03 skrev Leo Correia de Verdier 
> > :
> >
> > It’s needed in any voice that contains a \clef \time , \mark or anything 
> > such.
> >
> >> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:58 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
> >>
> >> Thank you, Leo.
> >>
> >> I already had "\grace {s16*3} s1" in the second lh voice, 
> >> apparently needed in the the second rh voice?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Ken
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:42 PM Leo Correia de Verdier 
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I haven’t been able to open your  .ly file since   I’m on the telephone, 
> >>> but that should be an issue 34. Add s8. right after the clef and time 
> >>> signature in the right hand, so that the grace note timing matches 
> >>> between the different staves and voices and the extra clefs and time 
> >>> signatures will disappear.
> >>>
> >>> HTH
> >>> /Leo
> >>>
> >>>>> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:33 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi;
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm engraving a piece of music arranged for Piano that (later) 
> >>>> has polyphony in the right hand and left hand.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is Lilypond 2.24.1 on MacOS.
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a spurious second treble clef (and spurious time 
> >>>> signature) in the first bar of the right hand (upper) staff.
> >>>>
> >>>> What am I doing wrong that causes this?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am attaching the example pdf which I am engraving from, my 
> >>>> Lilypond source and the pdf Lilypond creates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ken Wolcott
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
>
\version "2.24.1"

% Tchaikovsky: Marche Slave

\header {
  title = "Marche Slave"
  composer = "Tchaikovsky"
  arranger = "from 8notes.com"
}

global = {
  \language "english"
  \time 4/4
  \key c \major
  
}

\paper {
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
  markup-system-spacing.padding = 3
}

\layout {
  system-count = 4
}

% mBreak = { \break }
mBreak = { }

rh_one = {
  \global
  \clef treble
  \tempo "Moderato in modo di marcia funebre"
  \acciaccatura { s8. } R1  | % m01
  R1  | % m02
  R1  | % m03
  R1  | % m04
  e'2 ds'4(c'8 b)| % m05

  \bar "|."
}

rh_two = {
  \global
  \clef treble
  \acciaccatura { s8. } s1  | % m01
  s1  | % m02
  s1  | % m03

  \bar "|."
}

piano_dynamics = {
  \global
  s8\pp s2. s8  | % m01
  s1| % m02
  s1| % m03
  s1| % m04
  s1| % m05

}

lh_one = {
  \global
  \clef bass
  \acciaccatura { e,16 fs, gs, } \repeat tremolo 8 { a,32 a,, }  a,8 r r4  | % m01
  \acciaccatura { e,16 fs, gs, } \repeat tremolo 8 { a,32 a,, }  a,8 r r4  | % m02
  \acciaccatura { e,16 fs, gs, } 4 q q q   | % m03
  \acciaccatura { e,16 fs, gs, } 4 q q q   | % m04
  4 q | % m05

  \bar "|."
}

lh_two = {
  \global
  \clef bass
  \acciaccatura { s8. } s1  | % m01
  s1  | % m02
  s1  | % m03
  s1  | % m04
  s1 | % m05

  \bar "|."
}

\score {
  \new PianoStaff \with { instrumentName = "Piano" } <<
\new Staff <<
  \new Voice = "1" { \voiceOne \rh_one }
  \new Voice = "2" { \voiceTwo \rh_two }
>>
\new Dynamics \piano_dynamics
\new Staff <<
  \new Voice = "1" { \voiceOne \lh_one }
  \new Voice = "2" { \voiceTwo \lh_two }
>>
  >>
  \layout {}
}

\score {
  <<
\new Staff <<
  \set Staff.midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
  \set Staff.midiExpression=#0.6
  \new Voice = "1" { \voiceOne \rh_one }
  \new Voice = "2" { \voiceTwo \rh_two }
>>
\new Dynamics \piano_dynamics
\new Staff <<
  \set Staff.midiInstrument = "acoustic grand"
  \set Staff.midiExpression=#0.6
  \new Voice = "1" { \voiceOne \lh_one }
  \new Voice = "2" { \voiceTwo \lh_two }
>>
  >>
  \midi {
\tempo 4=110
  }
}

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Ah!!! Got it.

Thanks to you all.

Ken

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 12:52 PM Mats Bengtsson
 wrote:
>
>
> On 2023-02-21 21:33, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:
>
> Hi Leo;
>
>   Thanks again for your help.
>
>   I have the "\grace s8." now in all three of the voices that do not
> have the "\acciaccatura", yet the problem persists.
>
>   I'm not sure how I would insert the "\grace s8." into my \global
> variable.  I'm sure that is obvious, but I don't grok it.
>
>   I have attached my current Lilypond source, pdf output from Lilypond
> and the original pdf file.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken
>
> If you look carefully, you will see that it's no longer the clef, but the 
> time signature that's duplicated. The reason is that you have included the 
> time signature setting in your \global variable and that you have included 
> the \global variable into your \piano_dynamics variable, without a matching 
> \grace{s8.}. Since there's no reason to include \global in \piano_dynamics, 
> it's easiest to simply remove it there. Otherwise add \grace {s8.} there as 
> well.
>
>/Mats

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Mats Bengtsson]

  
  


On 2023-02-21 21:33, Kenneth Wolcott
  wrote:


  Hi Leo;

  Thanks again for your help.

  I have the "\grace s8." now in all three of the voices that do not
have the "\acciaccatura", yet the problem persists.

  I'm not sure how I would insert the "\grace s8." into my \global
variable.  I'm sure that is obvious, but I don't grok it.

  I have attached my current Lilypond source, pdf output from Lilypond
and the original pdf file.

Thanks,
Ken


If you look carefully, you will see that it's no longer the clef,
  but the time signature that's duplicated. The reason is that you
  have included the time signature setting in your \global variable
  and that you have included the \global variable into your
  \piano_dynamics variable, without a matching \grace{s8.}. Since
  there's no reason to include \global in \piano_dynamics, it's
  easiest to simply remove it there. Otherwise add \grace {s8.}
  there as well. 

   /Mats

  

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

Now that I am at the computer and have seen the .ly file I would recommend 
having them in the \global variable. (As you inferred, but just to be clear for 
anyone else reading this thread, it should be \grace s8. in my first mail in 
this thread).

> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 10:03 skrev Leo Correia de Verdier 
> :
> 
> It’s needed in any voice that contains a \clef \time , \mark or anything 
> such. 
> 
>> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:58 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
>> 
>> Thank you, Leo.
>> 
>> I already had "\grace {s16*3} s1" in the second lh voice, apparently
>> needed in the the second rh voice?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ken
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:42 PM Leo Correia de Verdier
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I haven’t been able to open your  .ly file since   I’m on the telephone, 
>>> but that should be an issue 34. Add s8. right after the clef and time 
>>> signature in the right hand, so that the grace note timing matches between 
>>> the different staves and voices and the extra clefs and time signatures 
>>> will disappear.
>>> 
>>> HTH
>>> /Leo
>>> 
>>>>> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:33 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
>>>> 
>>>> Hi;
>>>> 
>>>> I'm engraving a piece of music arranged for Piano that (later) has
>>>> polyphony in the right hand and left hand.
>>>> 
>>>> This is Lilypond 2.24.1 on MacOS.
>>>> 
>>>> There is a spurious second treble clef (and spurious time signature)
>>>> in the first bar of the right hand (upper) staff.
>>>> 
>>>> What am I doing wrong that causes this?
>>>> 
>>>> I am attaching the example pdf which I am engraving from, my
>>>> Lilypond source and the pdf Lilypond creates.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ken Wolcott
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

It’s needed in any voice that contains a \clef \time , \mark or anything such. 

> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:58 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
> 
> Thank you, Leo.
> 
> I already had "\grace {s16*3} s1" in the second lh voice, apparently
> needed in the the second rh voice?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ken
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:42 PM Leo Correia de Verdier
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I haven’t been able to open your  .ly file since   I’m on the telephone, but 
>> that should be an issue 34. Add s8. right after the clef and time signature 
>> in the right hand, so that the grace note timing matches between the 
>> different staves and voices and the extra clefs and time signatures will 
>> disappear.
>> 
>> HTH
>> /Leo
>> 
>>>> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:33 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
>>> 
>>> Hi;
>>> 
>>> I'm engraving a piece of music arranged for Piano that (later) has
>>> polyphony in the right hand and left hand.
>>> 
>>> This is Lilypond 2.24.1 on MacOS.
>>> 
>>> There is a spurious second treble clef (and spurious time signature)
>>> in the first bar of the right hand (upper) staff.
>>> 
>>> What am I doing wrong that causes this?
>>> 
>>> I am attaching the example pdf which I am engraving from, my
>>> Lilypond source and the pdf Lilypond creates.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ken Wolcott
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Thank you, Leo.

I already had "\grace {s16*3} s1" in the second lh voice, apparently
needed in the the second rh voice?

Thanks,
Ken

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:42 PM Leo Correia de Verdier
 wrote:
>
> I haven’t been able to open your  .ly file since   I’m on the telephone, but 
> that should be an issue 34. Add s8. right after the clef and time signature 
> in the right hand, so that the grace note timing matches between the 
> different staves and voices and the extra clefs and time signatures will 
> disappear.
>
> HTH
> /Leo
>
> > 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:33 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
> >
> > Hi;
> >
> >  I'm engraving a piece of music arranged for Piano that (later) has
> > polyphony in the right hand and left hand.
> >
> >  This is Lilypond 2.24.1 on MacOS.
> >
> >  There is a spurious second treble clef (and spurious time signature)
> > in the first bar of the right hand (upper) staff.
> >
> >  What am I doing wrong that causes this?
> >
> >  I am attaching the example pdf which I am engraving from, my
> > Lilypond source and the pdf Lilypond creates.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ken Wolcott
> > 
> > 
> > 

Re: spurious second treble clef sign, what did I do wrong this time?

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

I haven’t been able to open your  .ly file since   I’m on the telephone, but 
that should be an issue 34. Add s8. right after the clef and time signature in 
the right hand, so that the grace note timing matches between the different 
staves and voices and the extra clefs and time signatures will disappear. 

HTH
/Leo

> 21 feb. 2023 kl. 08:33 skrev Kenneth Wolcott :
> 
> Hi;
> 
>  I'm engraving a piece of music arranged for Piano that (later) has
> polyphony in the right hand and left hand.
> 
>  This is Lilypond 2.24.1 on MacOS.
> 
>  There is a spurious second treble clef (and spurious time signature)
> in the first bar of the right hand (upper) staff.
> 
>  What am I doing wrong that causes this?
> 
>  I am attaching the example pdf which I am engraving from, my
> Lilypond source and the pdf Lilypond creates.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ken Wolcott
> 
> 
> 

Re: New to Lilypond, how do i change the left hand clef from bass clef to treble clef right at the beginning of the piece?

[Simon Albrecht]

On 19.09.2018 01:13, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:

Triple,

Why not just start with a treble clef?


In piano music, one avoids that because pianists are so used to the 
usual clef combination that other constellations are somewhat likely to 
be overlooked.


Best, Simon

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RE: New to Lilypond, how do i change the left hand clef from bass clef to treble clef right at the beginning of the piece?

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Triple,

Why not just start with a treble clef?

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
tripleamia
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 2:56 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: New to Lilypond, how do i change the left hand clef from bass clef
to treble clef right at the beginning of the piece?

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5705/Opera_Snapshot_2018-09-18_
175428_conquest.png>
I'm working in Frescobaldi, so I have the right hand and left hand, and for
the first two measures of the left hand I need to switch from bass to treble
before any notes. I'm having difficulty explaining but you see in the
picture what I'm trying to do. What is the least complicated way to do this?



--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: New to Lilypond, how do i change the left hand clef from bass clef to treble clef right at the beginning of the piece?

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-09-18 2:55 pm, tripleamia wrote:

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/t5705/Opera_Snapshot_2018-09-18_175428_conquest.png>
I'm working in Frescobaldi, so I have the right hand and left hand, and 
for
the first two measures of the left hand I need to switch from bass to 
treble

before any notes. I'm having difficulty explaining but you see in the
picture what I'm trying to do. What is the least complicated way to do 
this?


Here is an ugly hack that achieves what you want by inserting a very 
small moment to allow the initial bass clef to not be immediately 
overridden by the treble clef:



\version "2.19.82"
hack = { \cadenzaOn s128 \cadenzaOff }
\new PianoStaff { <<
  \new Staff {
\clef treble \key d \major \time 3/4 \hack
fis''4. e''8 d''4 | a'4. g'8 fis'4 | }
  \new Staff {
\clef bass \key d \major \time 3/4 \hack
\clef treble d''4 a'8 fis' d'4 |
\clef bass d'4 a8 fis d4 | } >> }


That hack in mind, what I would do is not try to duplicate the reference 
engraving exactly and rather just go with the treble clef from the 
beginning.  This would visually simplify the piece and give you back a 
little width in the line as you don't need the otherwise useless bass 
clef.


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New to Lilypond, how do i change the left hand clef from bass clef to treble clef right at the beginning of the piece?

[tripleamia]

I'm working in Frescobaldi, so I have the right hand and left hand, and for
the first two measures of the left hand I need to switch from bass to treble
before any notes. I'm having difficulty explaining but you see in the
picture what I'm trying to do. What is the least complicated way to do this?



--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi David,

You give most fantastic and beneficial value and support to the community
and application. Rest assured it is appreciated.

Andrew
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[David Kastrup]

Andrew Bernard <andrew.bern...@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Karlin and Klose,
>
> You get a lot more than just a treble clef, although that's what the OP was
> asking. You get a very refined and subtle complete font. Cadence is very
> subtle.
>
> I tend to think of Abraham's work as what is called payware in the flight
> sim world - not commercial greed but some recompense for the work put in,
> and the ongoing support which is provided. Considering what you get, it's
> very reasonably priced.
>
> There's a long thread in the archives about the reasons Abraham turned to a
> payware model, after I and others questioned this move, and it is well
> worth reading. I'll dig up the link later. I know there are those who hold
> the view that there is something bad about paying money for any add-on to
> an open source product, and there is some merit in that, but it's not an
> absolute given I think. If it means support for the developer, then that's
> good for the whole community. After all, some of our developers are
> supported by generous donations - a indirect form of payware.

One.  And the proportion supporting him is minuscule, so even though the
donations as such count as generous, the total amount currently is about
a third of a minimum wage job.  Which is why I am now looking for one of
those jobs.

To be fair, having had a stroke and consequently having to be consistent
about my blood pressure medication has not exactly helped productivity,
so the very few people still supporting me don't exactly get value I
feel prooud of in return.

I still try to provide technical guidance to my ability, fix a number of
things, and will see 2.20 out the door eventually.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Karlin and Klose,

You get a lot more than just a treble clef, although that's what the OP was
asking. You get a very refined and subtle complete font. Cadence is very
subtle.

I tend to think of Abraham's work as what is called payware in the flight
sim world - not commercial greed but some recompense for the work put in,
and the ongoing support which is provided. Considering what you get, it's
very reasonably priced.

There's a long thread in the archives about the reasons Abraham turned to a
payware model, after I and others questioned this move, and it is well
worth reading. I'll dig up the link later. I know there are those who hold
the view that there is something bad about paying money for any add-on to
an open source product, and there is some merit in that, but it's not an
absolute given I think. If it means support for the developer, then that's
good for the whole community. After all, some of our developers are
supported by generous donations - a indirect form of payware.

Andrew



On 8 February 2018 at 23:31, Karlin High <karlinh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/8/2018 12:51 AM, klose wrote:
>
>> Thank you but they are not free. Any manuals explaining how to do it by
>> myself?
>>
>
> Look at the font examples for Abraham Lee's Cadence, and decide if a
> different treble clef is worth $39 USD for your purposes or not.
>
> https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence
>
>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Ben]

On 2/8/2018 10:53 AM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


For me personally, I can definitely say I am happy I bought Cadence: I've 
completely switched over to Cadence as the font for my housestyle. The treble 
clef is the big benefit, but there are also lots of other little improvements 
(to my eye).

Cheers,
Kieren.



I also love the Cadence font, it's a great choice for a house style!

Although I mainly prefer Scorlatti now (my subconscious / eyes just keep 
wanting to gravitate towards SCORE I guess?), both fonts are just 
beautiful...in fact all his fonts are definitely worth checking out.


https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-scorlatti

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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Karlin (et al.),

> Look at the font examples for Abraham Lee's Cadence, and decide if a 
> different treble clef is worth $39 USD for your purposes or not.

For me personally, I can definitely say I am happy I bought Cadence: I've 
completely switched over to Cadence as the font for my housestyle. The treble 
clef is the big benefit, but there are also lots of other little improvements 
(to my eye).

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Hilary,

Keeps getting wierder. Again different behaviour. Who can know the Mind of
Google?

Anyway, it's an old link that I had that is no longer current (but worked
for me tonight!).

Urs gave the right one.

Glad you like Emmentaler, but others have different qualities, but quite
subtle.


On 8 February 2018 at 18:00, Hilary Snaden  wrote:

> On 08/02/18 06:39, klose wrote:
>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?
>>
>
> I get a Google "sign in" page, which IMV is worse than a dead link.
>
> (I'm happy with the Emmentaler font.)
>
>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Hilary Snaden]

On 08/02/18 06:39, klose wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?


I get a Google "sign in" page, which IMV is worse than a dead link.

(I'm happy with the Emmentaler font.)


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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Simon Albrecht]

On 08.02.2018 05:40, Shane Brandes wrote:

What is it you don't like about that glyph? Your not the only person
who has said as much and I have yet to hear a decent explanation.


I think it’s simply a very characteristic glyph, one that sticks out and 
goes beyond the ordinary, and as such it’s going to solicit diverging 
opinions depending on taste.


Best, Simon

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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Karlin High]

On 2/8/2018 12:51 AM, klose wrote:

Thank you but they are not free. Any manuals explaining how to do it by
myself?


Look at the font examples for Abraham Lee's Cadence, and decide if a 
different treble clef is worth $39 USD for your purposes or not.


https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence

Those come with installation instructions, apparently.

https://www.musictypefoundry.com/installation#lilypond

There is also a GitHub site with LilyPond fonts. It seems to have font 
versions from 2014.


https://github.com/OpenLilyPondFonts
https://github.com/OpenLilyPondFonts/cadence

The LilyPond Notation Reference manual has some instructions for 
changing the font.


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/replacing-the-notation-font
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Pierre Perol-Schneider]

Hi Klose,
Here's a possibility (v.2.19) :

%
\version "2.19"

%% Defs:
#(define-markup-command (gClef layout props thk mlt) (number? number?)
  (interpret-markup layout props
   (markup
(#:stencil
 (make-path-stencil
  '(M 1.117 -2.778
C 0.73 -2.782 0.363 -2.364 0.484 -1.981
C 0.566 -1.641 1.043 -1.54 1.285 -1.786
C 1.504 -1.997 1.418 -2.395 1.141 -2.513
C 0.996 -2.567 0.836 -2.583 1.09 -2.614
C 1.379 -2.673 1.703 -2.559 1.828 -2.278
C 1.969 -1.911 1.82 -1.395 1.766 -1.024
C 1.031 -1.169 0.277 -0.903 0.031 -0.196
C -0.129 0.323 -0.043 0.917 0.25 1.366
C 0.492 1.737 0.832 1.999 1.152 2.3
C 1.07 2.886 1 3.468 1.203 4.034
C 1.297 4.292 1.484 4.503 1.68 4.687
C 1.898 4.886 2.117 4.335 2.211 4.062
C 2.398 3.601 2.227 2.839 1.934 2.323
C 1.816 2.105 1.637 1.929 1.457 1.757
C 1.5 1.523 1.539 1.288 1.586 1.054
C 2.117 1.077 2.477 0.792 2.602 0.359
C 2.766 -0.134 2.516 -0.766 1.953 -0.977
C 2.004 -1.423 2.16 -1.927 2.004 -2.313
C 1.902 -2.567 1.656 -2.766 1.379 -2.778
C 1.293 -2.798 1.203 -2.79 1.117 -2.782
M 1.734 -0.919
C 1.621 -0.306 1.574 0.026 1.5 0.464
C 1.164 0.433 0.973 0.066 1.09 -0.22
C 1.141 -0.345 1.223 -0.407 1.359 -0.485
C 1.492 -0.563 1.387 -0.657 1.297 -0.618
C 1.031 -0.509 0.664 -0.188 0.758 0.269
C 0.816 0.569 1.059 0.917 1.398 1.023
C 1.359 1.261 1.332 1.378 1.297 1.612
C 0.887 1.234 0.332 0.753 0.348 0.155
C 0.363 -0.532 0.746 -1.071 1.734 -0.919
M 1.688 0.48
C 1.762 0.105 1.844 -0.509 1.926 -0.88
C 2.656 -0.462 2.438 0.534 1.688 0.48
M 2.016 3.776
C 1.984 4.378 1.691 4.058 1.5 3.706
C 1.313 3.366 1.273 2.894 1.352 2.468
C 1.945 3.066 2.031 3.409 2.016 3.776
Z)
   thk mlt mlt #t)

\layout {
  \context {
\Score
\override Clef.stencil =
  #(lambda (grob)
 (let* ((sz (ly:grob-property grob 'font-size 0.00))
(mlt (magstep sz))
(glyph (ly:grob-property grob 'glyph-name)))
   (cond
((equal? glyph "clefs.G")
 (grob-interpret-markup grob
  (markup #:scale(cons mlt mlt)#:gClef 0 1)))
((equal? glyph "clefs.G_change")
 (grob-interpret-markup grob
  (markup #:scale(cons mlt mlt)#:gClef .01 .8)))
(else (ly:clef::print grob)
 \override ClefModifier.extra-offset = #'(.3 . 0)
  }
}

%% Test:
{ c' }




Cheers,
Pierre

2018-02-08 8:48 GMT+01:00 Jacques Menu Muzhic :

>
>
> > Le 8 févr. 2018 à 07:39, klose  a écrit :
> >
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?
>
> Intended pun, given the post subject?
>
> JM
>
>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

> Le 8 févr. 2018 à 07:39, klose  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?

Intended pun, given the post subject?

JM


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Re: The shape of treble clef

[Pierre Perol-Schneider]

Hi Klose,

See: http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=900
Which shape are you looking for ?

Cheers,
Pierre

2018-02-08 0:46 GMT+01:00 klose <amadeu...@live.com>:

> Hi, I am a long time Sibelius user and changed to Lilypond recently. The
> only
> thing I don't like so far is the shape of treble clef. Anyways to change
> it?
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Klose,

How very peculiar. While replying to you that linked worked just fine (but
I did think it looked somewhat out of date re content). Now going back
there as a result of your email the link is dead. Perhaps some strange web
server caching kicked in a updated the dead link to a notification of that.
I don't think I have ever seen that before.

Meantime Urs has given the up to date link.

Andrew
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[klose]

Thank you but they are not free. Any manuals explaining how to do it by
myself?



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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Urs Liska]

Am 8. Februar 2018 07:39:43 MEZ schrieb klose :
>Hi Andrew,
>
>Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?
>
>

look at musictypefoundry.com
>
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>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[klose]

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for your reply but it looks like the ink is dead?



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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Shane,

I note very briefly that regarding the design of the Cadence font by
Abraham Leigh he gives this reason:

In Cadence, I took the liberty of adjusting a few of the glyphs to suit my
tastes better. For example, the Emmentaler treble clef is just a little too
stylized for me, almost like it was intended to be a "hand-written" glyph.
Nothing wrong with hand-written, but not very representative of hand-
*engraven*.

https://sites.google.com/site/tisimst/Home/cadence


The Cadence font is intended to reproduce more of an hand punched in metal
engraving look than Emmenmtaler, even though the latter is base don that
concept as well. Cadence extends the details.

Andrew



On 8 February 2018 at 15:40, Shane Brandes <sh...@grayskies.net> wrote:

>
> What is it you don't like about that glyph? Your not the only person
> who has said as much and I have yet to hear a decent explanation.
>
>
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi klose,

Welcome to lilypond. You can change pretty much every single thing in
lilypond, one way or another. It admits of vast flexibility - unparalleled
in fact.

Our colleague here Abraham Lee (tismist) has made some very fine and
eminently usable engraving fonts. You may care to check them out. It used
to be difficult to adapt lilypond to use different fonts, but that is in
the past and it is simple to drop these fonts in.

https://sites.google.com/site/tisimst/lilypond-fonts

The point being, these fonts provide clefs and accidentals as well as
noteheads and so forth.

Apart from using supplied fonts, lilypond also allows custom definitions of
noteheads, which is what I use in my work. My noteheads have a very
specific shape and ellipticity that matches the handwriting of the composer
I work with, and this cannot be found in ready made fonts. I mention this
as an example of how customisable lilypond is in relation to visuals. As
has been mentioned, you can fashion your own clefs as you will, but that's
not entirely straight forward, as it requires internal knowledge of how
lilypond makes and uses fonts - but it can be learned and done.


Andrew
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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[klose]

Hi Shane,

You are right, I don't like the glyph of the treble clef. In my opinion, the
long line should be a straight one (like we see in Sibelius and Finale)
instead of a curved one.

Regards 



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Re: Change the shape of treble clef

[Shane Brandes]

See section  in the documentation 3.4.4 Replacing the notation font

What is it you don't like about that glyph? Your not the only person
who has said as much and I have yet to hear a decent explanation.

It would also be possible to edit your own version, but it is sort of
a cumbersome undertaking. That would involve using a font editor and
installing the modified font.

regards,
Shane

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:02 PM, klose <amadeu...@live.com> wrote:
> As a long time Sibelius user, I recently changed into Lilypond. So far the
> only thing I don't like is the treble clef shape. Is there any way to change
> it?
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Change the shape of treble clef

[klose]

As a long time Sibelius user, I recently changed into Lilypond. So far the
only thing I don't like is the treble clef shape. Is there any way to change
it?



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The shape of treble clef

[klose]

Hi, I am a long time Sibelius user and changed to Lilypond recently. The only
thing I don't like so far is the shape of treble clef. Anyways to change it?



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Change the shape of treble clef

[klose]

Hi, as a long time Sibelius user, I recently changed into Lilypond. The only
thing I don't like so far is the shape of treble clef. Any ways to change
it?



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Re: Baritone and treble clef

[Chris Yate]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 at 12:18 David Sumbler  wrote:

>
> > You are mistaken.
> Well, there you are then - I said I might be mistaken, and I was right!
>

Always nice to be proven correct
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Re: Baritone and treble clef

[David Sumbler]

On Tue, 2017-02-14 at 12:03 +, Phil Holmes wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David Sumbler" <da...@aeolia.co.uk>
> > 
> > 2) I may
> > be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal
> > music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be
> > expected to
> > read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the
> > point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my
> > music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave
> > transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to.
> > 
> > David
> 
> You are mistaken.  Baritone singers read music in treble clef all the
> time. 
> A speak as one who has been singing from both bass and treble clef
> for 40-odd years.

Well, there you are then - I said I might be mistaken, and I was right!

David

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Re: Baritone and treble clef

[Urs Liska]

Hi David,


Am 14.02.2017 um 12:52 schrieb David Sumbler:
> On Mon, 2017-02-13 at 22:58 +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
>> On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
>>>> The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo-
>>>> soprano.
>>>>   In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each
>>>> of the
>>>> alternative voices.  The staves contain identical music apart
>>>> from an
>>>> octave diffence in pitch and different clefs.
>>> Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting
>>> the clef modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses?
>> I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble
>> clef. 
>> I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s 
>> self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that
>> may 
>> be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when 
>> people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing 
>> notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a 
>> misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue)
>>
>> Best, Simon

If I'm not mistaken you didn't specify what kind and era of music we are
talking about, so that might make things different.

> I am reluctant to remove the baritone line, written in bass clef, for 2
> reasons:
> 1) the piece was originally written for baritone singer, and I would
> therefore not like anyone to get the impression that the male voice is
> merely an less desirable alternative to the female voice.

Traditionally, i.e. at least in the late eighteenth and the nineteenth
century, music that was explicitly set for baritone or bass was notated
in bass clef. Music that could be equally sung by both voices (I suppose
this goes mainly (only?) for songs) are in treble clef, without any
modifier.

> 2) I may 
> be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal
> music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to
> read treble clef.  I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the
> point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my
> music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave
> transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to.

As Phil said, you are mistaken. If you're a baritone and you want to
sing *any* of the usual suspects in Lied literature from Schubert over
Brahms to Webern you'll have treble clef most of the time, with the
exception of explicit bass songs. Even songs for tenor are usually
written in treble clef.

So if you want to indicate a part to be performed by mezzo or baritone
you'd probably want to have just a single staff with treble clef, and
something like "Mezzo or baritone" as the "instrument name".

HTH
Urs

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Re: Baritone and treble clef

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Sumbler" <da...@aeolia.co.uk>

2) I may
be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal
music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to
read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the
point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my
music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave
transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to.

David



You are mistaken.  Baritone singers read music in treble clef all the time. 
A speak as one who has been singing from both bass and treble clef for 
40-odd years.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: Baritone and treble clef

[David Sumbler]

On Mon, 2017-02-13 at 22:58 +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo-
> > > soprano.
> > >   In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each
> > > of the
> > > alternative voices.  The staves contain identical music apart
> > > from an
> > > octave diffence in pitch and different clefs.
> > Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting
> > the clef modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses?
> I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble
> clef. 
> I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s 
> self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that
> may 
> be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when 
> people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing 
> notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a 
> misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue)
> 
> Best, Simon

I am reluctant to remove the baritone line, written in bass clef, for 2
reasons:
1) the piece was originally written for baritone singer, and I would
therefore not like anyone to get the impression that the male voice is
merely an less desirable alternative to the female voice.
2) I may 
be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal
music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to
read treble clef.  I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the
point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my
music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave
transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to.

David

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Baritone and treble clef

[Simon Albrecht]

On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo-soprano.
  In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each of the
alternative voices.  The staves contain identical music apart from an
octave diffence in pitch and different clefs.

Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting the clef 
modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses?


I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble clef. 
I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s 
self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that may 
be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when 
people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing 
notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a 
misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue)


Best, Simon



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Re: Cadence treble clef

[tisimst]

Joram,

That isn't hard at all. Which would you prefer? 

1. A brand-new font that has the sharper Cadence treble clef and the rest 
Emmentaler (with a new name, just for you). 

OR

2. A custom Cadence font with the treble clef changes you requested, to replace 
the one you currently have installed, that you still use to bring in the treble 
clef through an override?

Either one is fine with me. 

- Abraham

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Noeck [via Lilypond] 
 ml-node+s1069038n171789...@n5.nabble.com wrote:
 
 Dear Abraham, 
 
 I like your treble clef with a straight diagonal line in the Cadence font. On 
 the other hand, I prefer the sharper inner edges of Emmentaler. So I end up 
 using Emmentaler and override the Clef font, which is a solution I am 
 satisfied 
 with even though it is not perfect. 
 
 My question to this: Does it require a whole new font to reconcile the two 
 things? To have the Emmentaler clefs but the treble clefs with a straighter 
 line 
 and at the same time no roundings along this diagonal line. 
 If it is complicated, just forget about this mail. If there is an easy way to 
 handle it (a font with just the treble clefs or I don’t know, I am fine with 
 overrides) and not too much work for you, would you do me this favour? 
 
 Cheers, 
 Joram 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Cadence treble clef

[Noeck]

Hi Abraham,

 That isn't hard at all. Which would you prefer? 
 
 1. A brand-new font that has the sharper Cadence treble clef and the
 rest Emmentaler (with a new name, just for you). 

Cool! I would prefer this. How about Greyerzer? It is a cheese quite
close to Emmentaler originwise. Am I right that in this case, it would
not matter whether I use this font completely or just for the clefs and
Emmentaler otherwise?


Independent from this, I think most beautiful handling of corners would
be in the middle of Emmentaler and Cadence. Looking at typographically
nice text fonts like Minion Pro or Linux Libertine and some others, my
take is (experts may correct me) this: Outer edges are almost never
infinitely sharp. There are no acute angles in the filled part.
But inner edges vary depending on how they would be drawn by hand. In
general, corners that arise by moving a pen are round (upper right part
of the e, the s, the lower left corner of the b) but corners that arise
from intersection of lines (x, where the curved parts of the n and m
meet the first straight line on the left) have sharp inner corners.

Translated to the clefs this would mean for the treble clef: The drop at
the lower end would be a bit rounded and the upper inner corner in the
upper loop (more towards Cadence) but the intersections along the
straight diagonal line would be sharp (more like Emmentaler).
For the bass clef, there would be no completely sharp corner.

Of course you can see that differently, but I think that is a reason why
I like these text fonts: They have a nice equilibrium between
clear/sharp lines and roundness.

Cheers,
Joram



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Cadence treble clef

[Noeck]

Dear Abraham,

I like your treble clef with a straight diagonal line in the Cadence font. On
the other hand, I prefer the sharper inner edges of Emmentaler. So I end up
using Emmentaler and override the Clef font, which is a solution I am satisfied
with even though it is not perfect.

My question to this: Does it require a whole new font to reconcile the two
things? To have the Emmentaler clefs but the treble clefs with a straighter line
and at the same time no roundings along this diagonal line.
If it is complicated, just forget about this mail. If there is an easy way to
handle it (a font with just the treble clefs or I don’t know, I am fine with
overrides) and not too much work for you, would you do me this favour?

Cheers,
Joram




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Re: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[Janek Warchoł]

2014-10-17 0:58 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org:
 Knute Snortum ksnor...@gmail.com writes:

 I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond. I have
 bass clef and treble clef notes on the same staff. I guess one way to
 do it is to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next
 to the treble clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from
 the bass clef in the first measure. I could make a temporary
 ossia-type staff to hold the bf pedal tone.

 Any other thoughts?

 \new Staff \with { \accepts Staff }
 {
   \partial 2
   \clef bass
   
 \new Voice
 { \voiceOne r8 \clef treble as c' e' as' bes d' fis' bes'
   c' e' as' c''~ q4 }
 \new Staff \with { createSpacing = ##f }
 { \voiceTwo bes,,2~
   \once\override Staff.CueClef.Y-offset = #-4 \cueClef bass
   bes,,2 }
   
 }

!  This really works! 8O

LilyPond is awesome.  I knew it.
Janek

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Re: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[David Kastrup]

Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes:

 2014-10-17 0:58 GMT+02:00 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org:
 Knute Snortum ksnor...@gmail.com writes:

 I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond. I have
 bass clef and treble clef notes on the same staff. I guess one way to
 do it is to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next
 to the treble clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from
 the bass clef in the first measure. I could make a temporary
 ossia-type staff to hold the bf pedal tone.

 Any other thoughts?

 \new Staff \with { \accepts Staff }
 {
   \partial 2
   \clef bass
   
 \new Voice
 { \voiceOne r8 \clef treble as c' e' as' bes d' fis' bes'
   c' e' as' c''~ q4 }
 \new Staff \with { createSpacing = ##f }
 { \voiceTwo bes,,2~
   \once\override Staff.CueClef.Y-offset = #-4 \cueClef bass
   bes,,2 }
   
 }

 !  This really works! 8O

 LilyPond is awesome.  I knew it.

Well, to be honest, everything in the inner Staff will be equally
visible in the first Staff, so with growing complexity you'll probably
need to throw out more and more engravers from the inner Staff in order
to avoid duplicate typesetting.  I actually tried getting away with just
giving the second Voice a Staff alias and just putting the
engravers/settings needed for the separate staff in there, but this did
not work for some reason and threw the first voice/staff into bass clef
positions as well.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[Knute Snortum]

I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond.  I have bass
clef and treble clef notes on the same staff.  I guess one way to do it is
to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next to the treble
clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from the bass clef in
the first measure.  I could make a temporary ossia-type staff to hold the
bf pedal tone.

Any other thoughts?


[image: Inline image 1]

Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)
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Re: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[Malte Meyn]

Have a look at http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=326

Am 16.10.2014 um 22:32 schrieb Knute Snortum:

I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond.  I have bass
clef and treble clef notes on the same staff.  I guess one way to do it is
to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next to the treble
clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from the bass clef in
the first measure.  I could make a temporary ossia-type staff to hold the
bf pedal tone.

Any other thoughts?


[image: Inline image 1]

Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)



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Re: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[Tim Reeves]

My first thought is...that's a really bad idea. 
But maybe there is some reason to do it that I had not considered...



Tim



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Date:   10/16/2014 01:32 PM
Subject:lilypond-user Digest, Vol 143, Issue 103
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Today's Topics:

   1. Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef (Knute Snortum)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:32:19 -0700
From: Knute Snortum ksnor...@gmail.com
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef
Message-ID:
 CALmeJxT8q8Kc_Vknu-=a2kQAMtFX6xGzrzRMeNcr+ic=foa...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond.  I have bass
clef and treble clef notes on the same staff.  I guess one way to do it is
to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next to the 
treble
clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from the bass clef in
the first measure.  I could make a temporary ossia-type staff to hold the
bf pedal tone.

Any other thoughts?


[image: Inline image 1]

Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)


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Re: Bass and Treble Clef notes on the same clef

[David Kastrup]

Knute Snortum ksnor...@gmail.com writes:

 I have a situation I don't know how to deal with in LilyPond. I have
 bass clef and treble clef notes on the same staff. I guess one way to
 do it is to create a markup and a small bass clef sign and put it next
 to the treble clef (and incorrect) gf which looks like a tied bf from
 the bass clef in the first measure. I could make a temporary
 ossia-type staff to hold the bf pedal tone.

 Any other thoughts? 

\new Staff \with { \accepts Staff }
{
  \partial 2
  \clef bass
  
\new Voice
{ \voiceOne r8 \clef treble as c' e' as' bes d' fis' bes'
  c' e' as' c''~ q4 }
\new Staff \with { createSpacing = ##f }
{ \voiceTwo bes,,2~
  \once\override Staff.CueClef.Y-offset = #-4 \cueClef bass
  bes,,2 }
  
}

-- 
David Kastrup


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tenorized treble clef

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

LilyPond has a treble clef with added C-clef-like stuff:

{ \clef tenorG c' }

(http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00661.html)
However, it seems to me that these added lines should be positioned
half a staff-space lower.  After all, C clef indicates the position of
middle C:

{ \clef tenor c' }

The way we have it right now, the extra claws point to d instead of
c.  I see that the engraved example provided in the thread linked
above has this positioning, but I think that's a mistake on the
clef-punch manufacturer's side.  What do you think?  Does anyone have
more examples of such clef?

best,
Janek

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Re: tenorized treble clef

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 27.07.2014 16:30, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

Hi,

LilyPond has a treble clef with added C-clef-like stuff:

{ \clef tenorG c' }

(http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00661.html)
However, it seems to me that these added lines should be positioned
half a staff-space lower.  After all, C clef indicates the position of
middle C:

{ \clef tenor c' }

The way we have it right now, the extra claws point to d instead of
c.  I see that the engraved example provided in the thread linked
above has this positioning, but I think that's a mistake on the
clef-punch manufacturer's side.  What do you think?
I think there is a misunderstanding here which originates in a logical 
inconsistency of this design:
For all I know, this clef has only been in use in France in the first 
half of the twentieth century (examples I have seen are from the late 
1930’s), and quite exactly in the shape that Lily now reproduces, with 
the “claws” pointing to the fourth line (counted from the bottom), as 
they do with the tenor clef. However, the “claws” are not actually 
indicating the position of the middle (or any other) c, but rather serve 
as a mere reminiscence of the specific tenor clef and the reader is 
supposed to conclude that the following notes are in a tenor register, 
that is, an octave lower as with a normal g clef. And indeed it is 
confusing and, strictly speaking, wrong that the g and c clefs mixed in 
this shape contradict each other.
So, nothing wrong in Lily’s adaptation there, only I have my doubts if 
it’s really a good idea to reactivate this clef, except for nostalgia 
reasons ;-)


Best regards, Simon

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Re: tenorized treble clef

[Conor Cook]

 From: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com
 Subject: tenorized treble clef
 Date: July 27, 2014 at 10:30:15 AM EDT
 To: LilyPond Users lilypond-user@gnu.org, Marc Hohl m...@hohlart.de, 
 Werner Lemberg lemzw...@googlemail.com
 
 
 Hi,
 
 LilyPond has a treble clef with added C-clef-like stuff:
 
 { \clef tenorG c' }
 
 (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00661.html)
 However, it seems to me that these added lines should be positioned
 half a staff-space lower.  After all, C clef indicates the position of
 middle C:
 
 { \clef tenor c' }
 
 The way we have it right now, the extra claws point to d instead of
 c.  I see that the engraved example provided in the thread linked
 above has this positioning, but I think that's a mistake on the
 clef-punch manufacturer's side.  What do you think?  Does anyone have
 more examples of such clef?
 
 best,
 Janek

It seems like the claws are indicating octave displacement, and the best way to 
show it was by centering the switch on D.  I think the claw ends are the 
important part.

Best,
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Re: Treble clef

[tisimst]

Yes it can! This clef is available in the current dev build (2.19.*). Any
version prior to this and you'd have to modify it manually, otherwise, which
isn't a simple task--but can be done. So, either try out the current dev
build of LP or just wait patiently for the next stable build.

Here
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/the-feta-font#clef-glyphs
  
is the list for the next line of available clef glyphs.

Regards,
Abraham



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Re: Treble clef

[Francisco Vila]

2013/11/19 Luca Rossetto Casel luca.rosse...@email.it:
 I can answer: it's a tenorized treble clef. The elements to the right of the
 G clef represent a stylized tenor clef.(...)

Also, don't be surprised if you find a double treble clef, two closely
overlapped g-clef symbols, with the same meaning.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Treble clef

[Philippe Auclair]

  
  
Hello,

In several scores, I find a clef which looks like a treble clef,
with "things" on the right. I haven't found this clef in the
Notation Reference Manual:


In case you can't see the image, the "things" on the right look like
this:
- a horizontal bar at the "e" level, followed by a vertical stem
going up and ending with a small circle on the right
- a horizontal bar at the "c" level, followed by a vertical stem
going down just under "g" and ending with a small circle on the
right

Can LilyPond print this clef?

Regards,
Philippe

  

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Re: Treble clef

[Luca Rossetto Casel]

Il 19/11/2013 17:27, Philippe Auclair ha scritto:

Hello,

In several scores, I find a clef which looks like a treble clef, with 
things on the right. I haven't found this clef in the Notation 
Reference Manual:

looks like a treble clef

[...]

Can LilyPond print this clef?

I'm very interested too! I've just posted an analogue question on the 
LilyPond Facebook group, and I was going to write here too. I was 
wondering if modifying the french alto clef by Valentin Villanave (from 
http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=612) would be a good starting point...


Thanks,

Luca


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Re: Treble clef

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.11.2013 17:27, schrieb Philippe Auclair:

Hello,

In several scores, I find a clef which looks like a treble clef, with things
on the right. I haven't found this clef in the Notation Reference Manual:
looks like a treble clef

In case you can't see the image, the things on the right look like this:
- a horizontal bar at the e level, followed by a vertical stem going up and
ending with a small circle on the right
- a horizontal bar at the c level, followed by a vertical stem going down just
under g and ending with a small circle on the right

Can LilyPond print this clef?


I don't have a clue what that actually is, but the things very much 
look like a tenor (C) clef imposed over the treble clef.


Urs



Regards,
Philippe



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Re: Treble clef

[Carl Peterson]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org wrote:

  I don't have a clue what that actually is, but the things very much
 look like a tenor (C) clef imposed over the treble clef.

 Urs


I agree. I suspect the meaning of the symbol is to indicate that the line
indicated by the C clef (in between the two halves) is the C above middle C
(the C clef indicating the line represents middle C, the G clef indicating
the raised octave).

Carl P.
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Re: Treble clef

[Gilberto Agostinho]

phil.auclair wrote
 In several scores, I find a clef which looks like a treble clef, with 
 things on the right. 

In which scores did you find this clef? 

Regards,
Gilberto




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Re: Treble clef

[Luca Rossetto Casel]

Il 19/11/2013 21:00, Gilberto Agostinho ha scritto:

phil.auclair wrote

In several scores, I find a clef which looks like a treble clef, with
things on the right.

In which scores did you find this clef?


I can answer: it's a tenorized treble clef. The elements to the right of 
the G clef represent a stylized tenor clef. It's an alternative to the 
more widely used octave treble clef (our treble_8). Its use dates from 
19th century, when it was introduced - by Ricordi editor, it seems - in 
Italian opera scores for writing tenor parts. It's still commonly used 
in contemporary editions of 19th and 20th century Italian opera: the 
tenorized treble clef has indeed became a typical element of the 
operatic scores traditional look - you can easily find it in nearly all 
editions of Donizetti, Bellini, Verdi, Puccini, and so on.


For all these reasons, I think that adding the tenorized clef (maybe as 
a variant of the treble_8 one) to LilyPond would make it even more 
complete and refined.


Luca



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New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[jon sea]

Hi I'm a new user trying to clean up an lilypond export from a sequencer and I 
cant figure out how to remove this extra staff - 
 
\version 2.10.10
\header {
dedication = 
title = New Arrangement
subtitle = 
poet = 
composer = 
copyright = 
date = 2013
}
GlobalMeter = \time 4/4

GlobalKeys = \key c \major


Chords = \chords { 

c8 \skip 4. \skip 2 
f8 \skip 4. \skip 2 
g8 \skip 4. \skip 2 
c8 \skip 4. \skip 2 
}


% bbb (GM.Acoustic Grand)

voiceInstBOne = {
e'1 |
a'1 |
b1 |
e'1
}

\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
head-separation = 1\cm
page-top-space = 0\cm
left-margin = 16\mm
line-width = 178\mm
between-system-padding = #0.1
between-system-space = #0.1
ragged-last-bottom = ##f
ragged-bottom = ##f

}

\score {

\tempo 4=120
\context Staff = sysInstBOne 
\clef treble
\GlobalMeter
\GlobalKeys
\set Staff.instrumentName = bbb 
\tempo 4=120
\skip 1*4 % keep staff alive
\new Voice = voiceInstBOneLocal \voiceInstBOne
\Chords




\layout { }
}

 
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Re: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[bobr...@centrum.is]

- Original Message -
From: jon sea jonsea...@yahoo.com
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 1:42:37 PM
Subject: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff



Hi I'm a new user trying to clean up an lilypond export from a sequencer and I 
cant figure out how to remove this extra staff - 

\version 2.10.10 

\header { 

dedication =  

title = New Arrangement 

subtitle =  

poet =  

composer =  

copyright =  

date = 2013 

} 

GlobalMeter = \time 4/4 



GlobalKeys = \key c \major 





Chords = \chords { 



c8 \skip 4. \skip 2 

f8 \skip 4. \skip 2 

g8 \skip 4. \skip 2 

c8 \skip 4. \skip 2 

} 





% bbb (GM.Acoustic Grand) 



voiceInstBOne = { 

e'1 | 

a'1 | 

b1 | 

e'1 

} 



\paper { 

#(set-paper-size a4) 

head-separation = 1\cm 

page-top-space = 0\cm 

left-margin = 16\mm 

line-width = 178\mm 

between-system-padding = #0.1 

between-system-space = #0.1 

ragged-last-bottom = ##f 

ragged-bottom = ##f 



} 



\score { 

 

\tempo 4=120 

\context Staff = sysInstBOne  

\clef treble 

\GlobalMeter 

\GlobalKeys 

\set Staff.instrumentName = bbb  

\tempo 4=120 

\skip 1*4 % keep staff alive 

\new Voice = voiceInstBOneLocal \voiceInstBOne 

\Chords 



 



 

\layout { } 

} 



I'm a beginner so ANY help is greatly appreciated - thx - p

Jon,


Change:


\tempo 4=120 

\context Staff = sysInstBOne  


To:

\context Staff = sysInstBOne  

\tempo 4=120


This will put your tempo marking inside the Staff context.  By placing it 
before \context Staff you force LilyPond to instantiate another Staff context.

-David
 
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Re: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[Robert Schmaus]

Hi Jon? (or ist it p?),

 I'm a beginner so ANY help is greatly appreciated - thx - p

the best advice anyone could give you in this case is to work through
that:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/index.html

You won't have a lot of fun if you're trying to use lilypond without
knowing much (or anything, if I understood you right ..) about it ...
and it doesn't take very long to understand the basics covered in there.
AND you'll be able to write much better ly files - that sequencer source
code looks kinda horrible to me ...

Best,
Robert

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Re: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[Noeck]

Hi Jon,

which program produces such an output?
I can only guess what could be inteded with that code, because it is
strange in several ways. To learn LilyPond it is better not to start
with automatically generated code like this!
A good start ist the learning manual from the beginning.
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/index

Your question is addressed here:
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/introduction-to-the-lilypond-file-structure


Just a few issues with the example code:
1) If music should occur at the same time it must be grouped with  
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/multiple-staves

2) If settings apply to one voice or line of music it must be grouped
with { }
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/music-expressions-explained

3) I removed the \skip because I don't understand why you need it

4) I removed the \ragged-bottom and \ragged-last-bottom because this
makes your 4 bars spread out over a whole page.


My best guess is the following code. Is that what you intended?

Cheers,
Joram


\version 2.10.10

\header {
  dedication = 
  title = New Arrangement
  subtitle = 
  poet = 
  composer = 
  copyright = 
  date = 2013
}

GlobalMeter = \time 4/4
GlobalKeys = \key c \major
Chords = \chords {
  c8 \skip 4. \skip 2
  f8 \skip 4. \skip 2
  g8 \skip 4. \skip 2
  c8 \skip 4. \skip 2
}

% bbb (GM.Acoustic Grand)
voiceInstBOne = {
  e'1 |
  a'1 |
  b1 |
  e'1
}

\paper {
  #(set-paper-size a4)
  head-separation = 1\cm
  page-top-space = 0\cm
  left-margin = 16\mm
  line-width = 178\mm
  between-system-padding = #0.1
  between-system-space = #0.1

}

\score {
  
\Chords
\context Staff = sysInstBOne 
  {
\tempo 4=120
\clef treble
\GlobalMeter
\GlobalKeys
\set Staff.instrumentName = bbb 
\new Voice = voiceInstBOneLocal \voiceInstBOne
  }

  
  \layout { }
}

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Re: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[Noeck]

Just to add this:

Assuming, you program did all that settings and they are not mandatory
for you, here is an easier code, which does almost the same as yours
using LilyPonds defaults. It is much shorter and much more readable:


\version 2.10.10

\header {
  title = New Arrangement
}

Chords = \chords { c1 f g c }

voice = {
  \tempo 4=120
  e'1 |
  a'1 |
  b1 |
  e'1
}

\score {
  
\Chords
{
  \set Staff.instrumentName = bbb 
  \voice
}
  
}

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Re: New user - I have an lone treble clef/extra staff

[David Nalesnik]

Hi Jon,

\version 2.10.10


You may also want to upgrade to a newer version--this one is ancient!

--David
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Re: Beaming (was Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef)

[Carl Sorensen]

On 9/25/11 3:46 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote:

 W dniu 25 września 2011 23:33 użytkownik Carl Sorensen
 c_soren...@byu.edu napisał:
 
 On 9/25/11 2:48 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote:
 Our beaming really needs some improvements.
 
 Please post the problems you are aware of,
 
 Sure, i'm working on the report for some time now (it's a thorough
 report, just like my ties report - which is work-in-progress too).
 Would you like to see it now or when it's finished?

When it's finished is fine.

Thanks,

Carl


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Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Alberto Simões]

Hello

Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble 
clef, meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?


Thank you
Alberto
--
Alberto Simoes
CEHUM

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Alberto,

 Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble clef, 
 meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?

\clef treble_8

Cheers,
Kieren.
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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Alberto Simões]

On 25/09/2011 21:06, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi Alberto,


Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble clef, 
meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?


\clef treble_8


Thats even simpler than what I found using google jut now :)

  \set Staff.clefPosition = #0
  \set Staff.clefOctavation = #0
  \set Staff.middleCPosition = #-4

Thanks

--
Alberto Simoes
CEHUM

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi Alberto,

2011/9/25 Alberto Simões al...@alfarrabio.di.uminho.pt:

 On 25/09/2011 21:06, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

 Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble
 clef, meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?

 \clef treble_8

 Thats even simpler than what I found using google jut now :)

  \set Staff.clefPosition = #0
  \set Staff.clefOctavation = #0
  \set Staff.middleCPosition = #-4

Transposed clefs are discussed in Notation Reference (
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#clef
).  Since you have missed that information, maybe we should make it
more visible.  Do you think that we should add information about
treble_8 clef here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/learning/simple-notation ?
 Or maybe somewhere else?

thanks in advance,
Janek

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Alberto Simões]

Hello, Jenek,

On 25/09/2011 21:22, Janek Warchoł wrote:

Transposed clefs are discussed in Notation Reference (
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#clef
).  Since you have missed that information, maybe we should make it
more visible.  Do you think that we should add information about
treble_8 clef here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/learning/simple-notation ?
  Or maybe somewhere else?

thanks in advance,
Janek


I think it was my lazy fault :)
I thought it to be something non standard, and gone searching directly 
in the snippets repository :-/


Thanks
--
Alberto Simoes
CEHUM

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Alberto,
You can do it this way:
{ \clef treble_8 c'1 }

Hello

 Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble
 clef, meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?

 Thank you
 Alberto
 --
 Alberto Simoes
 CEHUM

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Janek Warchoł]

2011/9/25 Alberto Simões al...@alfarrabio.di.uminho.pt:
 Hello, Jenek,

 On 25/09/2011 21:22, Janek Warchoł wrote:

 Transposed clefs are discussed in Notation Reference (

 http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#clef
 ).  Since you have missed that information, maybe we should make it
 more visible.  Do you think that we should add information about
 treble_8 clef here:
 http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.15/Documentation/learning/simple-notation ?
  Or maybe somewhere else?

 thanks in advance,
 Janek

 I think it was my lazy fault :)
 I thought it to be something non standard, and gone searching directly in
 the snippets repository :-/

Aha, ok.

thanks,
Janek

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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Nick Payne]

On 26/09/11 06:06, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi Alberto,


Is there any standard way to, using lilypond, add an 8 bellow a treble clef, 
meaning that it should be sang an octave bellow?

\clef treble_8


And BTW, the 8 is by default not properly centred under the bottom of 
the loop of the clef. I normally use


\override Staff.OctavateEight #'X-offset = #0.6

to get it to where it looks correct.

Nick


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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Nick,

 And BTW, the 8 is by default not properly centred under the bottom of the 
 loop of the clef. I normally use
 \override Staff.OctavateEight #'X-offset = #0.6
 to get it to where it looks correct.

Good to see another obsessive-compulsive engraver on the list…  ;)
I also think it's too small, so I tweak the font size as well.

Best,
Kieren.
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Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef

[Janek Warchoł]

2011/9/25 Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca:
 Hi Nick,

 And BTW, the 8 is by default not properly centred under the bottom of the 
 loop of the clef. I normally use
 \override Staff.OctavateEight #'X-offset = #0.6
 to get it to where it looks correct.

 Good to see another obsessive-compulsive engraver on the list…  ;)
 I also think it's too small, so I tweak the font size as well.

Count me in!  I think it's too thin.*
And perhaps it shouldn't be italic, i've seen mostly roman 8s.

So, let's fix it? :)

cheers,
Janek

* if you're interested, i've probably never seen any Lily score
without some nitpicks that could be corrected...
Our beaming really needs some improvements.

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Beaming (was Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef)

[Carl Sorensen]

On 9/25/11 2:48 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote:
 Our beaming really needs some improvements.

Please post the problems you are aware of, and I'll give you whatever
estimate I can about how hard they will be to fix.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: Beaming (was Re: Adding an 8 bellow the treble clef)

[Janek Warchoł]

W dniu 25 września 2011 23:33 użytkownik Carl Sorensen
c_soren...@byu.edu napisał:

 On 9/25/11 2:48 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote:
 Our beaming really needs some improvements.

 Please post the problems you are aware of,

Sure, i'm working on the report for some time now (it's a thorough
report, just like my ties report - which is work-in-progress too).
Would you like to see it now or when it's finished?

 and I'll give you whatever
 estimate I can about how hard they will be to fix.

I guess they will be very hard to fix properly...  But i hope to be wrong :)

thanks,
Janek

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Is \repeat volta 2 in treble clef enough for repeat bar in bass clef as well?

[Disc Magnet]

I have a PianoStaff

\score {
\new PianoStaff 
\set PianoStaff.midiInstrument = acoustic grand
\new Staff {
\treble
}

\new Staff {
\clef bass
\bass
}


\midi { }
\layout{ }
}

My treble is defined as:

treble = {
   \intro
\repeat volta 2 {
\part1
\part2
\part3
\part4
}
   \ending
}

I want to know whether the repeat line would be drawn right from the
treble clef through the bass clef? I tested this and the answer seems
to be 'yes'. I want to know if this is a reliable and defined behavior
or there is a more correct way of doing this (like using \repeat volta
2 separately for treble as well as bass clef?) ?

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Re: Is \repeat volta 2 in treble clef enough for repeat bar in bass clef as well?

[Jay Anderson]

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Disc Magnet discmag...@gmail.com wrote:
 I want to know whether the repeat line would be drawn right from the
 treble clef through the bass clef? I tested this and the answer seems
 to be 'yes'. I want to know if this is a reliable and defined behavior
 or there is a more correct way of doing this (like using \repeat volta
 2 separately for treble as well as bass clef?) ?

Yes, it works and looks fine. The only place where you might run into
trouble (that I know of) is if you try to unfold the repeats. Since
there are only repeats in the upper staff that is all that would be
unfolded. I tend to put my repeats in all staves (and voices if
applicable).

-Jay

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Treble clef with optional octavation?

[Alexander Kobel]

Hi, all,

anyone knows how to write a G clef, like in
\clef treble_8
but with the octavation 8 in parentheses? (It's for a staff with a 
solo voice sung by either alto or baritone, and thus the octavation is 
optional.)



Thanks,
Alexander


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Re: Treble clef with optional octavation?

[Marc Hohl]

Alexander Kobel schrieb:

Hi, all,

anyone knows how to write a G clef, like in
\clef treble_8
but with the octavation 8 in parentheses? (It's for a staff with a 
solo voice sung by either alto or baritone, and thus the octavation is 
optional.)

This solution (with a callback created by Neil Puttock) works fine:

#(define-public (parenthesize-me grob)
 (let* ((font (ly:grob-default-font grob))
(open (stencil-whiteout (ly:font-get-glyph font 
accidentals.leftparen)))
(close (stencil-whiteout (ly:font-get-glyph font 
accidentals.rightparen)))

(me (ly:text-interface::print grob)))
   (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
(ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
 me X LEFT open)
X RIGHT close)))

test = \relative c, {
 \override Staff.OctavateEight #'stencil = #parenthesize-me
 \clef treble_8
 c4 d e f
 g a b c
}

\score { \test }

Marc



Thanks,
Alexander


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Graham Percival]

Yes, particularly for basic stuff like this.  You might encounter
the occasional example that doesn't work in 2.10, but those will
be relatively rare.  IIRC everything in the LM will apply to 2.10
as well.

- Graham

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:56:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
So even though I am using 2.10.33 (latest stable I believe) I should be
looking at the 2.11 docs?
--
Chip
 
Graham Percival wrote:
 
  Ah, I see the problem.  You were looking at the 2.10 docs, which
  are approximately a thousand hours older than the 2.11 docs.  As
  you might expect from 1,000 hours of work, the 2.11 docs are much
  easier to read.
 
  - Graham
 
  On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:38:07PM -0700, chip wrote:
   
 
 I have read the bloody manuals, all of them. I finally found the part I
 need in the part I skipped over because it didn't apply to my work - 3.4
 An Orchestral Part. I found the code I needed to see by clicking on the
 picture of the score fragment, then I saw that the \transpose was in front
 of the \relative bit. That's all I needed to know, was where to put that
 bloody \transpose. I have yet to find anything anywhere in the docs that
 actually says to do that. In plain print, without having to look at the
 code behind the example fragment. Guess I just don't read between the
 lines enough, or don't make enough assumptions, or am just not experienced
 enough like all you experts who already know it all and don't have to dig
 through 3 or more manuals/references/tutorials/snippets libraries to try
 to figure out something so simple.
 Thanks for pointing me to the correct reference, even though you didn't
 need to be so bloody rude about it.
 --
 Chip
 
 Graham Percival wrote:
 
   On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:04:47PM -0700, chip wrote:
   
 
   caused by this code -
   
 
   ... lots of stuff in the copy/pasted section below ...
   \bar |.
   }
   \score {
  \new Staff \notes
   \transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef bass \notes } }
  \layout { indent = #0 }
  \midi {}
 
 
   Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the syntax of a
   lilypond file.
 
   Particularly^2, the a \score contains a single music expression
   part.
 
   - Graham
 
 
   
 
 
 
   


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Jonathan Kulp]

Your example worked fine for me, Chip.  Did you figure it out?  (I went 
to bed and missed all the fun.) If my minimal example wouldn't work then 
you must have had a stray curly brace somewhere.  What you want is to 
put the transpose command in your score block here:


   \new Staff \transpose c ef,, { \melody }

When I ran it this way it transposed it to where the first pitch was a G 
in the top space of the bass clef.  If that's an octave too low then 
remove one of the commas after the e-flat.


Jon

chip wrote:
Thanks for your patience and help Jonathan, I'm trying your example but 
keep getting errors thrown up at me during compile. I've included my 
piece for you to look at. I've placed the \transpose line in several 
different sections and can't get it to work.

Regards,
Chip

===
% LilyPond
\include english.ly
\version 2.10.33
\header{
   title = Mi Lupita
   composer = Recorded by: Rudy Palacias
   arranger = Transcribed by: Chip Wiegand
   instrument = Bari Sax
}
% macro for beamed two per two in 2/2 and 4/4 time signature
qBeam = {
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 1 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 2 4 'Staff)
 #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end 1 8 * *) 3 4 'Staff)
}

\paper {
top-margin = 0.1\cm
page-top-space = 0.1\cm
}

#(set-global-staff-size 22)
#(set-default-paper-size letter)

melody = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef bass
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()
   \override MultiMeasureRest #'expand-limit = 1
   \override Glissando #'style = #'zigzag
   \qBeam

r2 r8 e e d \bar |:
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
c8 g d' g, e' e e d
f d~ d c b d f a
g e f g~ g4 fs
f?2 r2
e4. a8~ a4 a~
\time 5/4 a8 g~ g4~ g2.
\time 4/4 r8 g r4 r2
\set Score.skipBars = ##t R1*4
g4. as8~ as4~ as8 as8~
as4~ as8 gs r4 r4
\time 2/4 r4 r8 gs
\time 4/4
gs4 r r2
r4 e8 f g4 fs
f?1
e1
f4 r r2
R1*5

r2 r8 a~ a gs
g?4 r r2
R1*2
r16 g, a b c d e r r8 e e d \bar :|
% REMOVED MORE NOTATION TO SHORTEN UP THE QUOTED SECTION $
}
\score {
   \new Staff \melody
   \layout {
   indent = #0
}
   \midi {}
}

=
Jonathan Kulp wrote:

Just connect one more dot and you're there...

notes = { \key c \major c d e f }

%% sax part
\relative c'' { \notes }

%% trombone part -- add the \clef command
%% and change it to \relative c' instead of relative c''

\transpose c es, { \relative c' { \clef bass \notes } }



Jon

chip wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is all there is to 
it. I changed the clef to Bass and in doing so the notes change 
position on the staff. I want to have the notes remain in the same 
positions on the staff in bass clef as they are in treble clef. Only 
the key signature should change. The Alto Sax part is in the key of 
C, so the bass clef part should be in, I don't know, my theory is so 
rusty I can't think that one up.

--
Chip

Jonathan Kulp wrote:
For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose 



To change it to bass clef, just use a command

\clef bass

The easiest way to put put music into a different clef/register is 
to store the notes in a variable and simply use different \relative 
levels to put it in the right octave:


%%% start cut-and-paste section %%%

%% define the pitches
notes = { c d e f }

%% start pitches on middle C

\relative c' { \notes }

%% put same pitches in bass clef an 8ve lower

\relative c { \clef bass \notes }

%% transpose notes for an e-flat instrument
\transpose es c' { \relative c' { \notes }}

%% transpose from e-flat instrument to concert pitch
\transpose c es, { \relative c'' { \notes } }

%%% end cut-and-paste section %%%

Hope that helps,

Jon

chip wrote:
I have a piece written for Eb Alto Sax and would like to transpose 
it to Bass Clef Trombone. I've read a bunch of posts in the 
archives and am now more confused than ever. It should be 
relatively easy, as the bass clef bone should be able to read the 
notes as written, but just change the key sig? Right? I think...

Please shed some light on this for me,
Thanks.
Chip


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--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[james bailey]

2008/11/16, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the syntax of a
  lilypond file.

  Particularly^2, the a \score contains a single music expression
  part.


  - Graham


Seriously, Graham, if you can't be nice and fuzzy, don't respond.
(Wasn't that your suggestion?) You do potentially more damage by
responding than simply waiting for someone from the nice and fuzzy
committee to get around to reading their email. (I know I was
seriously pissed off at the first question I asked and you responded.)

And, I know it makes complete sense to you, but a normal person would
never think to look at documentation for a version other than the one
they're using. So, before you get all mao, take a look at the relevant
documentation for the person who's asking the question.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:34:15PM +0100, james bailey wrote:
 2008/11/16, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  Read the bloody tutorial and LM 3.  Particularly the syntax of a
   lilypond file.
 
 Seriously, Graham, if you can't be nice and fuzzy, don't respond.

In general I do that.  But Chip had asked four questions already,
and received three answers from Jonathan, and was still quite
lost.

Then I replied, and his next email ended with Thanks for pointing
me to the correct reference, even though you didn't need to be so
bloody rude about it.


Would people rather get rude + accurate responses, or warm +
fuzzy + not solving the problem responses?  I personally would
*much* rather get the former.

 And, I know it makes complete sense to you, but a normal person would
 never think to look at documentation for a version other than the one
 they're using.

No, it doesn't make sense.  That's why I take every opportunity to
suggest the 2.11 docs on the mailist, and can't wait for 2.12 to
be out.

If the initial response to his question was read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax, the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.

- Graham


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Kieren MacMillan]

Graham,


Would people rather get rude + accurate responses, or warm +
fuzzy + not solving the problem responses?  I personally would
*much* rather get the former.

If the initial response to his question was read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax, the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.


So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my  
rude + accurate comment), why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to  
everyone on the list that all RTFM comments should be RTFCM (C =  
current) comments?


Hope this wasn't warm and fuzzy and inaccurate!  =)
Kieren.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:12:56PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
 Graham,

 If the initial response to his question was read the 2.11 docs
 about transposition and file syntax, the whole discussion would
 have been over in 2 or 3 emails.

 So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my rude + 
 accurate comment),

:)

In defense of Jonathan, his responses *were* accurate; they were
just too polite.  I mean, they were accurate and looked accurate,
but it invited a discussion about file syntax.  We've spent about
10 hours working on file syntax ALONE in the 2.11 docs; unless you
think that you can explain the concept better in an email than
multiple people could do in 10 hours, I strongly suggest that we
simply tell people to RTB211D.

 why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to everyone on the 
 list that all RTFM comments should be RTFCM (C = current) comments?

Definitely!  Although since there are multiple manuals, and to be
slightly more polite, it should be RTB211D.  :)   That said, I
believe that all doc-pointing in recent months *has* been to the
2.11 docs -- we just aren't consistent in saying read the 2.11
docs instead of 2.10.


On second thought, I regret using the word bloody in my first
email.  That's should be saved for people who know me and will
understand the joke.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Jonathan Kulp]

Graham Percival wrote:


If the initial response to his question was read the 2.11 docs
about transposition and file syntax, the whole discussion would
have been over in 2 or 3 emails.


Please note the first lines of my initial response to Chip:

For transposing from E-flat to concert pitch, see the docs on 
transposition, here:


http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-big-page#Transpose

At this point there was no need to point him to docs on syntax because 
he said he was confused about how transposition worked, not about where 
to put the command.  Nevertheless, I went to the trouble of also 
supplying four minimal examples of transposition that I tested and that 
worked perfectly.  Maybe this is spoonfeeding but I enjoy doing it and 
wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about by creating examples 
I had actually run successfully.


So rather than making this yet another pissing contest (that's my rude 
+ accurate comment), why don't we suggest EXPLICITLY to everyone on the 
list that all RTFM comments should be RTFCM (C = current) comments?


I pointed to the current docs, as I always do, but Kieren makes a good 
point--I'll try to remember in future to say also that the current docs 
are better even if running 2.10.33.  Chip didn't say which version he 
was running until he responded the third time with some code, at which 
time I think I was already gone to bed.



Hope this wasn't warm and fuzzy and inaccurate!  =)
Kieren.


If I handled Chip's inquiry wrongly, please let me know, y'all.  I enjoy 
helping new users and feel that this is one of the ways I can best help 
the Lilypond effort since I can't write code or fix bugs and my role in 
the doc project is done.  I don't see anything inaccurate in my 
responses and it's against my nature to be anything but friendly.  I 
don't blame Chip for not getting it the first time, either, as I've had 
many moments when something that's obvious for most users has completely 
befuddled me.  (the correct placement of a \midi block comes to mind...).


Best,

Jon


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Jonathan Kulp]

Graham Percival wrote:


In defense of Jonathan, his responses *were* accurate; they were
just too polite.  I mean, they were accurate and looked accurate,
but it invited a discussion about file syntax.  We've spent about


Thanks Graham.  I just sent an email defending myself but it's nice to 
get confirmation :)



2.11 docs -- we just aren't consistent in saying read the 2.11
docs instead of 2.10.


Agreed.  I'll try to make a habit of this.

Jon
--
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http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[chip]

Amazing how this whole conversation got so blown apart. Anyway, In one 
other post Graham you mention you probably shouldn't have used the word 
'bloody' with someone who doesn't know you, and you're probably correct. 
I took it as a English version of f we Americans probably would've 
used. Therefore I didn't take it so lightly. So now that's done and over 
with, we move on.


Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers 
Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries 
for Syntax but not File Syntax. At any rate, so far I am unable to find 
an example that shows how to properly lay out a .ly song. I'm guessing 
something like this -

\include
\version
\header
\paper
melody=, song=, notes= . \relative .
\score {
   \new Staff \melody, song, notes .whatever was above
   \layout {}
   \midi {}
}
   That may or may not be correct, but based on the examples I've seen 
it appears to be correct. But based on the way the forum posts have gone 
there must be something wrong with it, but what? That's part of what I 
haven't been able to find in any of the docs.
   My original question was about the transpose option and the reply 
from Jonathan was probably accurate and usable, but I didn't know where, 
in the above layout, to put the \transpose bit. I tried it in many 
places and got errors. It wasn't until you pointed me to the docs 
section and I clicked on the picture to view the underlying code that I 
found the location to place the \transpose code. Again, it appears that 
this info could have been placed in the manual, maybe the Learning 
Manual, in the textual portion, not just hidden behind the example 
picture. Then it would be easy to find, shown in a printed textual 
example, with the staff example as well.
   As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, 
the Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, 
to try to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It 
appears to me that these documents are not written for the complete noob 
like me, but for someone who already has a clue.
   Oh, another example - changing the default style of multimeasure 
rests - that too took a lot of digging to find the answer to, when it 
could have been explained in simple text in the Learning Manual. And the 
information on changing the time signature from C to 4/4, etc, was also 
a time consuming search through several manuals. Seems to me these are 
basics that should be in the Learning Manual, explained in plain text.

For example (first section direct from the Learning Manual):

Time signature

Music Glossary: time signature.

The time signature can be set with the \time command:

\relative c'' {
 \time 3/4
 a4 a a
 \time 6/8
 a4. a
 \time 4/4
 a4 a a a
}

And one can use this command:

\override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()

to change the default style of the time signature to always show the 
fraction style time signature. As in this example:


notes = \relative c'' {
   \time 4/4
   \key c \major
   \clef treble
   \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()

 \time 3/4
 a4 a a
 \time 6/8
 a4. a
 \time 4/4
 a4 a a a
}

--

There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane 
or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be 
obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the 
manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to 
look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the 
word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is, 
therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some 
light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything 
needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot 
of digging.


Regards,
Chip W.


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Jonathan Kulp]

chip wrote:
Amazing how this whole conversation got so blown apart. 


That happens sometimes...


melody=, song=, notes= . \relative .
\score {
   \new Staff \melody, song, notes .whatever was above
   \layout {}
   \midi {}
}


   My original question was about the transpose option and the reply 
from Jonathan was probably accurate and usable, but I didn't know where, 
in the above layout, to put the \transpose bit. I tried it in many 


So I still don't know, is it working yet?!  I think my response first 
thing this morning should have worked if it didn't get buried in your 
inbox with the flurry of other emails.  Where you have this line in your 
\score block:


\new Staff \melody

put the transpose command like this:

\new Staff \transpose c ef,, { \melody }

I definitely understand the way Lilypond can be overwhelming and 
confusing, since I come to it as a composer and musicologist who had 
never seen a line of any kind of code until I started using Lilypond. 
I'd suggest going carefully through the Tutorial in the Learning Manual 
(the new one, for version 2.11.63), as it's very well done and 
introduces you to most of the concepts you need.  It's done in a 
thorough and logical manner, with one concept leading to the next, and 
is probably the best way to get going.  I'm fairly experienced now but I 
still find useful bits in the learning manual all the time.


Best,

Jon


--
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http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:23:54PM -0700, chip wrote:
 Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers  
 Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries  
 for Syntax but not File Syntax.

Oh bloody mao, here we go again.

Look here guys.  I get annoyed when I see people doing way too
much effort.  Chip and Jonathan were working way too hard on
something so simple.

Chip, read these 3 doc pages, and only these 3.  Don't search for
anything.  Do not pass go.  Do not collection $200.

LM 2.3.1 Music expressions explained
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Music-expressions-explained

LM 3.1.1 Introduction to the LilyPond file structure
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure#Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure

LM 3.1.2 Score is a (single) compound musical expression
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression#Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression


Done that?  Good.  Now if you look me in the metaphorical eye and
say I don't see what's wrong with
\score{
  \expr1
  \expr2
  \layout{}
}

then I will apologize for being curt.  And then I'll listen to
your suggestions for the docs.


As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, the 
 Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, to try 
 to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It appears to me 
 that these documents are not written for the complete noob like me, but 
 for someone who already has a clue.

Start reading from LM 2.  From the beginning.  Forget whatever you
think you know about lilypond.  Your experience with the 2.10 docs
is counter-productive here.

Oh, you might also find this helpful:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/About-the-documentation#About-the-documentation
 
 There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane  
 or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be  
 obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the  
 manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to  
 look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the  
 word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is,  
 therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
 Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some  
 light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything  
 needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot  
 of digging.

That's because you're digging.  The LM does *exactly* what you
want; the only problem is that you think you know something about
lilypond from 2.10, and haven't sat down to read the 2.11 LM front
to cover.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[chip]

Jonathan Kulp wrote:


So I still don't know, is it working yet?!  

Heheh, sorry for mentioning, yes it is working the way I expect it to.
Thankyou.
--
Chip


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[chip]

Ok, I got it now, I'll read the 2.11 Learning Manual from cover to 
cover. My problem is I tend to skip the stuff that *apparently* doesn't 
apply to what I am doing - anything that has multiple stafs like grand 
stafs, or lyrics. And that's probably not a good thing, I know. So I'll 
try to be a good student and read the whole manual whether I like it or 
not.
Thanks for pounding me on the head a few times because that's what it 
takes sometimes.

Regards,
Chip

Graham Percival wrote:

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:23:54PM -0700, chip wrote:
  
Now I am looking through the 2.11 docs and searching (using my browsers  
Find function) for Syntax and File Syntax and finding lots of entries  
for Syntax but not File Syntax.



Oh bloody mao, here we go again.

Look here guys.  I get annoyed when I see people doing way too
much effort.  Chip and Jonathan were working way too hard on
something so simple.

Chip, read these 3 doc pages, and only these 3.  Don't search for
anything.  Do not pass go.  Do not collection $200.

LM 2.3.1 Music expressions explained
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Music-expressions-explained

LM 3.1.1 Introduction to the LilyPond file structure
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure#Introduction-to-the-LilyPond-file-structure

LM 3.1.2 Score is a (single) compound musical expression
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression#Score-is-a-_0028single_0029-compound-musical-expression


Done that?  Good.  Now if you look me in the metaphorical eye and
say I don't see what's wrong with
\score{
  \expr1
  \expr2
  \layout{}
}

then I will apologize for being curt.  And then I'll listen to
your suggestions for the docs.


  
   As a noob to Lilypond I find delving through the Learning Manual, the 
Notation Reference, Examples and Snippets Library a daunting task, to try 
to figure out something that turned out to be so simple. It appears to me 
that these documents are not written for the complete noob like me, but 
for someone who already has a clue.



Start reading from LM 2.  From the beginning.  Forget whatever you
think you know about lilypond.  Your experience with the 2.10 docs
is counter-productive here.

Oh, you might also find this helpful:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/About-the-documentation#About-the-documentation
 
  
There are going to be noobs out here who will ask completely inane  
or simple questions, to you guys the answers to which will seem to be  
obvious and easy to find, but that's because you know the lingo and the  
manuals inside-out. We don't know the right words or the correct way to  
look for the answers. Until I started using Lilypond I'd never seen the  
word grob or glob or whatever it is, and don't know what it is,  
therefore I wouldn't know how to ask a question that might refer to one.
Well I suppose enough for now, I hope the examples help shed some  
light on the situation. I've been able to find pretty much everything  
needed so far by digging around in the manuals, but it does take a lot  
of digging.



That's because you're digging.  The LM does *exactly* what you
want; the only problem is that you think you know something about
lilypond from 2.10, and haven't sat down to read the 2.11 LM front
to cover.

Cheers,
- Graham


  


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Re: confused about transposing from treble clef to bass clef

[Francisco Vila]

After reading this thread, one thing is clear to me:

There is a point in the development course from stable to next stable,
where people should move to the current development release and forget
the old one. These days too many people uses 2.10 and its old
documentation. If a new user wants to start using LilyPond, I
undoubtedly send him to current 2.11 which is almost 2.12, because not
doing so involves

- all you learn about 2.10 will become obsolete shortly.
- all you learn about 2.11 will serve untouched when 2.12 Rune comes out.

I think it is not a matter of caprice, I'm not an update freak that
considers vital to update from 2.11.63.0001a-rc7.0 to
2.11.63.0001a-rc7.1, but this is not the case now.

And of course this should appear prominently in the web page. I
propose a semi-permanent news item telling people to start using 2.11
with its docs from NOW.

This does not apply in the early, rapid changing stages of development
of a release, but it does here IMO.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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