Re: Software design document
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:32:26 +0200 Eli Segal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > which will include text, picture (screens capture) and tables > It all should be in hebrew ofcourse, and easy transfer to html would be nice > > What is the best tool for such kind of a job ( a stable one) My first choice for technical documentation tool is: LyX -> LaTeX -> DVI -> PostScript LyX -> LaTeX -> PDF (hebrew is Ok thanks to Dekel Tzur). You can translate to HTML via LaTeX2HTML but I don't like the quality (pure HTML isn't good enough for presentation). Another possible course is: DocBook(SGML/XML) -> HTML DocBook(SGML/XML) -> DVI -> PostScript -> PDF However LyX support for SGML is quite basic (only simple features and not the complete DocBook) and I don't know *good* SGML/XML editor (anybody). Also the output of the current available convertors from SGML/XML (jade, jadetex) isn't tailored to my likings and I'm not even close to being an expert in their definition language (DSSSL -- a Lisp like beast). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things." --Doug Gwyn = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
I think emacs handle SGML quite well ... Is it right ? - Original Message - From: "Oron Peled" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Eli Segal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Software design document > On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:32:26 +0200 > Eli Segal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > which will include text, picture (screens capture) and tables > > It all should be in hebrew ofcourse, and easy transfer to html would be nice > > > > What is the best tool for such kind of a job ( a stable one) > > My first choice for technical documentation tool is: > LyX -> LaTeX -> DVI -> PostScript > LyX -> LaTeX -> PDF > (hebrew is Ok thanks to Dekel Tzur). > > You can translate to HTML via LaTeX2HTML but I don't like > the quality (pure HTML isn't good enough for presentation). > > Another possible course is: > DocBook(SGML/XML) -> HTML > DocBook(SGML/XML) -> DVI -> PostScript -> PDF > > However LyX support for SGML is quite basic (only simple features > and not the complete DocBook) and I don't know *good* SGML/XML > editor (anybody). Also the output of the current available convertors > from SGML/XML (jade, jadetex) isn't tailored to my likings and > I'm not even close to being an expert in their definition language > (DSSSL -- a Lisp like beast). > > > Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron > > "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because > that would also stop you from doing clever things." > --Doug Gwyn = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Software design document
what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Oron Peled Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:05 PM To: Eli Segal Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Software design document On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:32:26 +0200 Eli Segal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > which will include text, picture (screens capture) and tables > It all should be in hebrew ofcourse, and easy transfer to html would be nice > > What is the best tool for such kind of a job ( a stable one) My first choice for technical documentation tool is: LyX -> LaTeX -> DVI -> PostScript LyX -> LaTeX -> PDF (hebrew is Ok thanks to Dekel Tzur). You can translate to HTML via LaTeX2HTML but I don't like the quality (pure HTML isn't good enough for presentation). Another possible course is: DocBook(SGML/XML) -> HTML DocBook(SGML/XML) -> DVI -> PostScript -> PDF However LyX support for SGML is quite basic (only simple features and not the complete DocBook) and I don't know *good* SGML/XML editor (anybody). Also the output of the current available convertors from SGML/XML (jade, jadetex) isn't tailored to my likings and I'm not even close to being an expert in their definition language (DSSSL -- a Lisp like beast). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things." --Doug Gwyn = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:30:52PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? Tex, LaTeX, LyX, no contest. MS Word equation editor if you're feeling masochist. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Software design document
is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? -Original Message- From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 6:33 PM To: kfir lavi Cc: Oron Peled; Eli Segal; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Software design document On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:30:52PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? Tex, LaTeX, LyX, no contest. MS Word equation editor if you're feeling masochist. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:00:05PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? Yes. Let me know if you want to see my LaTeX makefile, which is based on Oleg's. Also, make sure to follow the advice at http://www.advogato.org/person/ladypine/diary.html?start=37 for producing a valid pdf. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Software design document
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, kfir lavi wrote: > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? > It is for English documents, but not for Hebrew documents if you wish them to be viewed correctly with Acrobat Reader. I tried running pdfelatex on documents with some Hebrew in it, and the generated PDF still looks horrible in Acrobat Reader. This is the case with Mandrake 9.0. English is fine with pdflatex. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -Original Message- > From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 6:33 PM > To: kfir lavi > Cc: Oron Peled; Eli Segal; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Software design document > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:30:52PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > > > what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? > > Tex, LaTeX, LyX, no contest. > > MS Word equation editor if you're feeling masochist. > -- > Muli Ben-Yehuda > http://www.mulix.org > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:16:45PM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > It is for English documents, but not for Hebrew documents if you wish them > to be viewed correctly with Acrobat Reader. I tried running pdfelatex on > documents with some Hebrew in it, and the generated PDF still looks > horrible in Acrobat Reader. This is the case with Mandrake 9.0. I have a hebrew document sitting on the table next to me, made with LaTeX, viewed by gv and acroread and printed through acroread, and it looks absolutely fine, even the hebrew parts. If it looks bad for you, try to investigate any font problems. > English is fine with pdflatex. I've never used pdflatex, but dvips -> ps2pdf works. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Software design document
I'm afraid I'll have to chill out the optimism a bit. The original post asked about writing a complicated /hebrew/ document. The situation of ivritex, the hebrew support for LaTeX, is far from perfect. Ready yourself for an odd bug oneic in a while, and using a good font is still a problem (at least for myself). Having said that, it is feasible - and even recomended (since your document is complicated and full of features, we might earn a couple of bug fixes :) ) Good luck. On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:57:48PM +0200, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:00:05PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > > > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? > > Yes. Let me know if you want to see my LaTeX makefile, which is based > on Oleg's. Also, make sure to follow the advice at > http://www.advogato.org/person/ladypine/diary.html?start=37 for > producing a valid pdf. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:16:45PM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > It is for English documents, but not for Hebrew documents if you wish them > > to be viewed correctly with Acrobat Reader. I tried running pdfelatex on > > documents with some Hebrew in it, and the generated PDF still looks > > horrible in Acrobat Reader. This is the case with Mandrake 9.0. > > I have a hebrew document sitting on the table next to me, made with > LaTeX, viewed by gv and acroread and printed through acroread, and it > looks absolutely fine, even the hebrew parts. If it looks bad for you, > try to investigate any font problems. > I use the default Hebrew font. Should I change it? > > English is fine with pdflatex. > > I've never used pdflatex, but dvips -> ps2pdf works. Actually it does not (for the default English font). It creates PDFs that look very blurry and awful in acroread 4 or 5. (let me know if you need a screenshot to see what I mean). Generally my philosophy is to write the document and customize it later and _never_ do any manual final touches. With LaTeX and DocBook the output is usually so nice that I don't even bother messing with the fonts, and just leave it as is. I know someone who manually tweaks the resultant PostScript files after they are finished. Now that's what I call hubris, because you have to do that each time you release a final version. That goes against the UNIX philosophy of automating the process. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Muli Ben-Yehuda > http://www.mulix.org > > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:00:05PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > > > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? > > Yes. Let me know if you want to see my LaTeX makefile, which is based > on Oleg's. Also, make sure to follow the advice at > http://www.advogato.org/person/ladypine/diary.html?start=37 for > producing a valid pdf. Or try my my over-grown makefile at http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/latex_make , which is aimed at automating the work with latex as much as possible . Has some nice features, such as: pack all the sources together, mail/scp the sources/products to a destination of your choosing, etc. For the most part it is aimed at keeping all the produced copies (ps, PDF, html, etc.) in sync. BTW: is there any script that is equivalent of MikTeX's texify? It would save much of the dirtier parts of that makefile. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
> BTW: is there any script that is equivalent of MikTeX's texify? It would > save much of the dirtier parts of that makefile. I use latexmk, a perl script, which does the same thing (runs perl / bibtex the appropriate number of times) It can be downloaded from CTAN: ftp://ftp.ctan.org/tex-archive/support/latexmk/ Jason --- Jason Friedman Ph.D. Student Department of Computer Science and Applied Mathematics Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel. Home page: http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~jason = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 08:12:02PM +0200, Jason Friedman wrote: > > BTW: is there any script that is equivalent of MikTeX's texify? It would > > save much of the dirtier parts of that makefile. > > I use latexmk, a perl script, which does the same thing (runs perl / > bibtex the appropriate number of times) There are other similar scripts. For example, rubber, which is included in Debian unstable. I don't know which one is the best. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On 2003-02-25, Dan Kenigsberg wrote: > I'm afraid I'll have to chill out the optimism a bit. The original post asked > about writing a complicated /hebrew/ document. The situation of ivritex, the > hebrew support for LaTeX, is far from perfect. Ready yourself for an odd bug > oneic in a while, and using a good font is still a problem (at least for > myself). > > Having said that, it is feasible - and even recomended (since your document is > complicated and full of features, we might earn a couple of bug fixes :) ) > I'd like to use UTF-8 but I can't manage to get omega/lambda to show Hebrew (I just got Greek to work :). Is this a path I should continue trying or should I just fall back to normal tex and use iconv? -- Beni Cherniavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The mind of a good coder knows what his computer would do for any of his programs. The computer of a good hacker knows what his mind would do if it weren't for his programs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote about "Re: Software design document": > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:30:52PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > > > what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? > > Tex, LaTeX, LyX, no contest. There's also "Texmacs", what supposedly is cross between TeX and Emacs, but in reality bears no relation to either (it's a WYSIWYG word processor, that does not actually use TeX - it only tries to look as good). Texmacs is a GNU project, or so they claim - check out http://www.texmacs.org/. Note that I never used texmacs, so I don't know how well it works in real life usage. My personal preference is using LaTeX straight, but I admit that it's not an appealing concept for someone who's already a Microsoft-Office junkie. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Feb 26 2003, 24 Adar I 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |When you handle yourself, use your head; http://nadav.harel.org.il |when you handle others, use your heart. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote about "Re: Software design document": > > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? > > Yes. Let me know if you want to see my LaTeX makefile, which is based > on Oleg's. Also, make sure to follow the advice at > http://www.advogato.org/person/ladypine/diary.html?start=37 for > producing a valid pdf. Or, you might say "Hey, Adobe, you got it right the first time around!" and just use Postscript. Say no to helping Windows-users stay with Windows! [1] [1] http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Feb 26 2003, 24 Adar I 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I have a great signature, but it won't http://nadav.harel.org.il |fit at the end of this message -- Fermat = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:35:02PM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > I have a hebrew document sitting on the table next to me, made with > > LaTeX, viewed by gv and acroread and printed through acroread, and it > > looks absolutely fine, even the hebrew parts. If it looks bad for you, > > try to investigate any font problems. > > > > I use the default Hebrew font. Should I change it? The default Hebrew font come only in metafont format, which means it will be converted to bitmap when embedded in the PDF. IF you want a PDF file that looks good with Acrobat reader, you need to use either Postscript type 1 fonts (e.g. Culmus), Postscript type42 fonts, or TTF fonts (the latter can be used only with pdflatex, but it is possible to convert a TTF font to Postscript type 1 or 42). > > I've never used pdflatex, but dvips -> ps2pdf works. > > Actually it does not (for the default English font). It creates PDFs that > look very blurry and awful in acroread 4 or 5. (let me know if you need a > screenshot to see what I mean). It does work by default if you use tetex2.0. With earlier versions, you need to write dvips -Ppdf -G0, or add the following lines to ~/.dvipsrc p+ bsr.map p+ bsr-interpolated.map p+ hoekwater.map = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 10:28:44PM +0200, Beni Cherniavsky wrote: > > Having said that, it is feasible - and even recomended (since your document is > > complicated and full of features, we might earn a couple of bug fixes :) ) > > > I'd like to use UTF-8 but I can't manage to get omega/lambda to show > Hebrew (I just got Greek to work :). Is this a path I should continue > trying or should I just fall back to normal tex and use iconv? It is possible to use the ucs.sty package with normal latex. You need to tweak the uni-5.def file: assuming you use recent ivritex macros, you need to have [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the file. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 08:33:08AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > If you send it to your boss, while telling him that, you might get > fired. The first document I prepared with LaTeX (an English one) I sent to a > TAU education professor in PostScript format. He told me he cannot read > PS and asked for the _MS Word Original_. I ended up ps2pdf'ing it, which > satisfied him. Did you send him a free clue with it? several technion professors *refuse* to accept Word documents, due to the inherent virus risk. > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than installing a PDF viewer. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Software design document
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote about "Re: Software design document": > > > is the conversion to pdf is easy, with no faults? > > > > Yes. Let me know if you want to see my LaTeX makefile, which is based > > on Oleg's. Also, make sure to follow the advice at > > http://www.advogato.org/person/ladypine/diary.html?start=37 for > > producing a valid pdf. > > Or, you might say "Hey, Adobe, you got it right the first time around!" > and just use Postscript. > > Say no to helping Windows-users stay with Windows! [1] > I hope this is a joke! If you send it to your boss, while telling him that, you might get fired. The first document I prepared with LaTeX (an English one) I sent to a TAU education professor in PostScript format. He told me he cannot read PS and asked for the _MS Word Original_. I ended up ps2pdf'ing it, which satisfied him. Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. That put aside - I believe Adobe created PDF from a good reason, despite the fact that PostScript was at its time a cutting-edge achievement. You yourself said that accessing the i'th page is O(i) in PostScript while O(1) in PDF. And PDF has hyperlinks and other cute bells and whistles, which PostScript does not support. > [1] http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ > Interesting link, which I completely don't agree with. If I can get the software I write to run on Windows and other non-UNIX platforms without too much overhead, I will try to do so. While the latest version of Quad-Pres can only run on UNIX (partly because I'm using WML), I believe all my other software is compatible with Windows. To quote someone I read, the issue is not Windows vs. Linux. The issue is free software vs. non-free one. Foribly preventing people from running free software on Windows just to make a point, will actually prevent them from experiencing with free software, and later on deciding that Linux may be worth a try. Luckily, a lot of open-source developers out there don't ostracize Windows in such a way. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, Feb 26 2003, 24 Adar I 5763 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Ihave a great signature, but it won't > http://nadav.harel.org.il |fit at the end of this message -- Fermat > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > theword "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Dekel Tsur wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 07:35:02PM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > I have a hebrew document sitting on the table next to me, made with > > > LaTeX, viewed by gv and acroread and printed through acroread, and it > > > looks absolutely fine, even the hebrew parts. If it looks bad for you, > > > try to investigate any font problems. > > > > > > > I use the default Hebrew font. Should I change it? > > The default Hebrew font come only in metafont format, which means it will be > converted to bitmap when embedded in the PDF. > IF you want a PDF file that looks good with Acrobat reader, you need to use > either Postscript type 1 fonts (e.g. Culmus), Postscript type42 fonts, > or TTF fonts (the latter can be used only with pdflatex, but it is possible > to convert a TTF font to Postscript type 1 or 42). > I thought type42 fonts _were_ TTF fonts. Oh well. I'll try in any case, but last time I tried to install TTF fonts by converting them to Type 1 first, it was a very long procedure (which involved some old versions of various programs) and I did not get to Hebrew yet. Can you give me a howto for it? > > > I've never used pdflatex, but dvips -> ps2pdf works. > > > > Actually it does not (for the default English font). It creates PDFs that > > look very blurry and awful in acroread 4 or 5. (let me know if you need a > > screenshot to see what I mean). > > It does work by default if you use tetex2.0. > With earlier versions, you need to write dvips -Ppdf -G0, > or add the following lines to ~/.dvipsrc > Worked like a charm, thanks. Acroread sees it much better now. I'm using tetex 1.0.7. Regards, Shlomi Fish > p+ bsr.map > p+ bsr-interpolated.map > p+ hoekwater.map > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
Quoting Muli Ben-Yehuda, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > > > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. why do you even compare the two? PDF is a presentation format, Word is editable, scriptable source, for starters. Both are proprietary though (Ask Sklyarov). > I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing > a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than > installing a PDF viewer. well, due to a very good marketing campaign, many people recognize the .pdf extension, almost as many as those who recognize .html. however .ps is rarely recognized outside the Unix/Mac user domain. It may be easy to install, if people knew about it. And shlofmi said: > > [1] http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ > Interesting link, which I completely don't agree with. If I can get > the software I write to run on Windows and other non-UNIX platforms > without too much overhead, I will try to do so. While the latest > version of Quad-Pres can only run on UNIX (partly because I'm using > WML), I believe all my other software is compatible with Windows. I Agree in full. Felix has a twisted view on what software freedom is (it seems like a lot of his page is full of DJB's stuff. While I agree it's great software, it's not free, and I ache for a GPL replacement) Asking for people not to port software to windows is rediculous. I see the idea of porting Free Software everywhere as the best thing to do. you flood windows users with a Free environment, they will get used to it, and finally switching the kernel will not be fealt. BillG will call us Viral for saying that, but it's the Utopia I dream of :) -- Big fish in a small pond Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Software design document
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 09:59:17AM +0200, Ira Abramov wrote: > Quoting Muli Ben-Yehuda, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > > > > > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > > > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > > > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > > > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. > > why do you even compare the two? PDF is a presentation format, Word is > editable, scriptable source, for starters. Ira, I'm afraid you misquoted. The above was said by Shlomif, and I certainly do not agree to it. ObILoveLinuxConferences: I just registered to OLS (http://www.ottawalinuxsymposium.org). Anyone from this side of the pond coming this year? -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Software design document
Just one thought ... Why would anyone want users to leave windows .. I say, if someone is happy with his windows .. let him be linux is alternative and that's the good part you have elsewhere to go, and that's one of the greatest things in linux you can choose the way your system looks, act, etc .. I want a world with chioces and it doesn't bothr me that windows is one of those choices - Original Message - From: "Ira Abramov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Software design document = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: > On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 08:33:08AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > If you send it to your boss, while telling him that, you might get > > fired. The first document I prepared with LaTeX (an English one) I sent to a > > TAU education professor in PostScript format. He told me he cannot read > > PS and asked for the _MS Word Original_. I ended up ps2pdf'ing it, which > > satisfied him. > > Did you send him a free clue with it? several technion professors > *refuse* to accept Word documents, due to the inherent virus risk. > Like I said, he was a TAU professor in the school of education. If he were a Mathemtics professor, I suppose he would not have had any problem dealing with a PostScript file. I just pre-assumed he could. > > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. > > I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing > a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than > installing a PDF viewer. Actually, installing GSview and getting it to print correctly is much more complicated than installing Acrobat Reader. And the problem is that few Windows people know what it is, while more have heard about PDFs. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Muli Ben-Yehuda > http://www.mulix.org > > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
> > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. > > I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing > a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than > installing a PDF viewer. Maybe it should, but it is not. pdf is much easier to view there, and it is much more common in the world accesible by google: the word "and" appears in 5,860,000 pdf files, but only in 421,000 ps files. Dan. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Ira Abramov wrote: > Quoting Muli Ben-Yehuda, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > > > > > Seriously, while PDF is not a panacea for many Windows kiddies who only > > > know of Word, it is still much more accesible than PostScript. Sending a > > > document to a Windows guy in PS format is like sending a document to a > > > UNIX guy in Word format. Not a nice thing to do. > > why do you even compare the two? PDF is a presentation format, Word is > editable, scriptable source, for starters. > I compared the two because PostScript is not standard on Windows system, and Word is not standard on UNIX systems. You are right that they are very different in concept. > Both are proprietary though (Ask Sklyarov). > Skylarov was arrested for circumventing the Adobe eBook format, which is a proprietary and undocumented way of scrambling a PDF. Otherwise, PDF is fully documented, and a full documentation for it is available on the Adobe site. Whether it makes it proprietary or not, is left for the interpretation of the beholder. > > I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing > > a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than > > installing a PDF viewer. > > well, due to a very good marketing campaign, many people recognize the > .pdf extension, almost as many as those who recognize .html. however .ps > is rarely recognized outside the Unix/Mac user domain. It may be easy to > install, if people knew about it. > Agreed > And shlofmi said: > > > [1] http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ > > Interesting link, which I completely don't agree with.If I can get > > the software I write to run on Windows and other non-UNIX platforms > > without too much overhead, I will try to do so.While the latest > > version of Quad-Pres can only run on UNIX (partly becauseI'm using > > WML), I believe all my other software is compatible with Windows. > > I Agree in full. > Felix has a twisted view on what software freedom is (it seems like a > lot of his page is full of DJB's stuff. While I agree it's great > software, it's not free, and I ache for a GPL replacement) > > Asking for people not to port software to windows is rediculous. I see > the idea of porting Free Software everywhere as the best thing to do. > you flood windows users with a Free environment, they will get used to > it, and finally switching the kernel will not be fealt. BillG will call > us Viral for saying that, but it's the Utopia I dream of :) > Agreed again. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Big fish in a small pond > Ira Abramov > > http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. > Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
Quoting Eli Segal, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > Just one thought ... > Why would anyone want users to leave windows .. well, in a utopia, there will be a constant rise in the number of computer users, each picking his OS and tools in a balanced way, causing MS products to drop below the 50% share mark or so and allowing for real competition. However the world is in an economical drawback, and the digital gap isn't narrowing, so instead of new users with freedom of choice I promote also converting the existing ones if possible. more users for an OS means buying power which encourages suppliers to write software and support hardware. don't you want more software and better hardware support? > I say, if someone is happy with his windows .. let him be > linux is alternative and that's the good part true, but his choice of OS should not punish him by taking away good apps. why should we NOT port good apps to his platform? a developer like Felix saying his software should not be ported to windows is like Arik Sharon saying he doesn't want election propaganda posted in Me'a she'arim because he doesn't want their votes. It's utterly rediculous, goes against the foundations of Free Software Philosophy, and smells of fanaticism. It's also funny to read that from a guy who's not fanatic about FS, as he works on DJB's code and supports his licenseless habbits which are annoying many. -- Worth a thousand words Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
Quoting Muli Ben-Yehuda, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > > Ira, I'm afraid you misquoted. The above was said by Shlomif, and I > certainly do not agree to it. it was a quote of a quote (as the double >> sign noted), so I'm deeply sorry if amy of Shlomfi's words were attributed to you. mea culpa. > ObILoveLinuxConferences: I just registered to OLS > (http://www.ottawalinuxsymposium.org). Anyone from this side of the > pond coming this year? Only if a rish uncle dies and leaves me the plane ticket and hotel reservation :( -- The 13th Apostle Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Software design document
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003, Eli Segal wrote about "Re: Software design document": > Just one thought ... > Why would anyone want users to leave windows .. > > I say, if someone is happy with his windows .. let him be > linux is alternative and that's the good part The bigger issue that (I believe) is raised in that link I gave is that why should we, people who like Linux and develop for it, want to waste our time to help Windows users. For example consider someone who loves LaTeX but writes in Word format to please other (Windows-using) people. Or someone for whom postscript is most convenient but generates PDF anyway, because he believes Windows-users prefer it. Or some free software developer that spends (say) 10% of his development time to make sure his program works under Windows, rather than spending that 10% on something really important to him (assuming this developer himself does not user Windows and is not planning to use it anytime soon). This is obviously a very fanatic view of things, and I don't completely agree with it. But he does make a valid point. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Feb 26 2003, 24 Adar I 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |God created the world out of nothing, but http://nadav.harel.org.il |the nothingness still shows through. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Wed, Feb 26, 2003, Eli Segal wrote about "Re: Software design document": > > Just one thought ... > > Why would anyone want users to leave windows .. > > > > I say, if someone is happy with his windows .. let him be > > linux is alternative and that's thegood part > > The bigger issue that (I believe) is raised in that link I gave is that why > should we, people who like Linux and develop for it, want to waste our time > to help Windows users. > On the same accord we should not make sure our programs run on Solaris, or other proprietary UNIX systems. Or even the BSDs. As a developer, it is important for me that Windows users will be able to use it as well. If it's a Gtk+-app and/or has a lot of UNIXisms in it, then porting it to Windows may not be worthwhile. This is good and I respect developers who choose that. But if it can be ported to Windows without too much hassle (or at least just an initial one) then I don't see a reason why not. Asking a person to install Linux just to use your program is a big request. It requires reformatting the hard-disk, or buying a new one and from then on rebooting the machine to switch an OS. Many people will be terrified of the concept of an entirely different operating system. OTOH, if you tell them: you can download cygwin from there, Perl/Python/Ruby/Tcl/whatever from there, the GIMP from there, etc. they will be much more willing because it's just another program. (there are of course "Aunt Tillie"-types who don't install anything on their computer). After they experiment with it and with Shlomif's Own OSS, they may be less reluctant to install Linux where all these things run much better. > For example consider someone who loves LaTeX but writes in Word format to > please other (Windows-using) people. He should use DocBook like I do. ;-) If you are working in an environment where most people use Word format and wish to modify each other's documents, than you'll have to comply. That or teach them all LaTeX, which can run very well on Windows as well. > Or someone for whom postscript is most > convenient but generates PDF anyway, because he believes Windows-users prefer > it. Why can PDF be less convenient than PostScript? > Or some free software developer that spends (say) 10% of his development > time tomake sure his program works under Windows, rather than spending that > 10% on something really important to him (assuming this developer himself > does not user Windows and is not planning to use it anytime soon). > I think these percentage calculations of time are deceptive. I believe I spend most of my development time _thinking_ and I believe most good developers follow suit. Out of the net time of actually sitting in front of the computer, assuming that a 10% of the time (again, it varies from project to project), could otherwise be spent on something else, is not always true. If between release 1.2.0 and 1.4.0, I spent 10% of the time making sure it runs on Windows, then it does not follow that without supporting Windows, I would have spent 90% of the time, or would have released it earlier. Some projects have a Windows champion, who makes sure their final version (or even nightly builds) compiles on Windows. > This is obviously a very fanatic view of things, and I don't completely > agree with it. But he does make a valid point. > The only point he is making is that he will not support a Windows port of his software, even if it won't be very hard to maintain or he'll have a champion there. It is a very childish point. If I had a project that was only tested on Linux, and someone sent me a patch to get it to compile with MSVC, I would have gladly accepted it and applied it. Granted, Windows is very incompatible to UNIX (at least without cygwin, Interix or another UNIX emulation layer), but maintaining a port can still be relatively straightforward and there is no need to completely ban it. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, Feb 26 2003, 24 Adar I 5763 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- > Phone:+972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |God created the world out of nothing, but > http://nadav.harel.org.il |the nothingness still shows through. > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there
Re: Software design document
Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Wed, 26 Feb: > > The bigger issue that (I believe) is raised in that link I gave is > that why should we, people who like Linux and develop for it, want to > waste our time to help Windows users. nobody is forcing you. but will you actively refuse to include patches to help things run on a proprietary system that were done by someone else in his free time? -- The best show in town Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On 2003-02-26, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote about "Re: Software design document": > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 06:30:52PM +0200, kfir lavi wrote: > > > > > what is the best for complicated mathematical notations ? > > > > Tex, LaTeX, LyX, no contest. > > There's also "Texmacs", what supposedly is cross between TeX and Emacs, > but in reality bears no relation to either (it's a WYSIWYG word processor, > that does not actually use TeX - it only tries to look as good). Texmacs > is a GNU project, or so they claim - check out http://www.texmacs.org/. > Its main conection to TeX is that it uses TeX fonts, even on screen. It looks really good, better than any word but that's no news to people used to TeX :-). It's WYSIWYG++ :-). It allows you to define macros, to create your own structure elements, with some sort of a higienic macro system. That very neat for a visual system, never saw anything else like this. The interface lets you feel quite well the abstract tree of the document you are editing, which is also very rare for WYSIWYG. So it's quite close to LyX's WYSIWYM goals, without giving up beautiful display. Promising, IMO. > Note that I never used texmacs, so I don't know how well it works in > real life usage. > I have, a bit. It's quite nice and I intially found it more pleasant to work with than LaTeX (even though I usually prefer editing some source). It doesn't have the "smelly quircky" feel of [La]TeX, resulting from the macro processor never intended for maintainable large-scale programming, if you know what I mean. It looks convenient for complex math; actually looking at the real equations is a big improvement over even TeX's notation :-). Be warned that it lacks good editing features, closer to word than emacs at this area :-(. It has one fatal flaw: no Hebrew, no BiDi (it does have tranlations and support for most European languages). I've just mailed the developers asking whether they have bidi plans... > My personal preference is using LaTeX straight, but I admit that it's not > an appealing concept for someone who's already a Microsoft-Office junkie. > -- Beni Cherniavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't like assignments, I like problems. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On 2003-02-26, I wrote: > It [TeXmacs] has one fatal flaw: no Hebrew, no BiDi (it does have > tranlations and support for most European languages). I've just > mailed the developers asking whether they have bidi plans... > They replied that currently not (they in the middle of heavy restructuring), perhaps sometime after that... -- Beni Cherniavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't like assignments, I like problems. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Software design document
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 08:47:04AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: > I thought type42 fonts _were_ TTF fonts. Oh well. I'll try in any case, > but last time I tried to install TTF fonts by converting them to Type 1 > first, it was a very long procedure (which involved some old versions of > various programs) and I did not get to Hebrew yet. Can you give me a howto > for it? Type42 fonts are TTF fonts inside a Postscript font wrapper. I have written a howto on using TTF fonts with pdftex: http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~dekelts/ttf/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Specs of the PDF format [was Re: Software design document]
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote: > On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Ira Abramov wrote: > > > Both are proprietary though (Ask Sklyarov). > > > > Skylarov was arrested for circumventing the Adobe eBook format, which is a > proprietary and undocumented way of scrambling a PDF. Otherwise, PDF is > fully documented, and a full documentation for it is available on the > Adobe site. Whether it makes it proprietary or not, is left for the > interpretation of the beholder. > Here are the complete PDF specs from Adobe: http://partners.adobe.com/asn/developer/technotes/acrobatpdf.html Knock yourself out! Regards, Shlomi Fish > > > > > I disagree. Unless PDF comes by default on windows nowday, installing > > > a postscript viewer should be no more and no less complicated than > > > installing a PDF viewer. > > > > well, due to a very good marketing campaign, many people recognize the > > .pdf extension, almost as many as those who recognize .html. however .ps > > is rarely recognized outside the Unix/Mac user domain. It may be easy to > > install, if people knew about it. > > > > Agreed > > > And shlofmi said: > > > > [1] http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ > > > Interesting link, which I completely don't agree with.If I can get > > > the software I write to run on Windows and other non-UNIX platforms > > > without too much overhead, I willtry to do so.While the latest > > > version of Quad-Pres can only run on UNIX (partly becauseI'm using > > > WML), I believe all my other software is compatible with Windows. > > > > I Agree in full. > > Felix has a twisted view on what software freedom is (it seems like a > > lot of his page is full of DJB's stuff. While I agree it's great > > software, it's not free, and I ache for a GPL replacement) > > > > Asking for people not to port software to windows is rediculous. I see > > the idea of porting Free Software everywhere as the best thing to do. > > you flood windows users with a Free environment, they will get used to > > it, and finally switching the kernel will not be fealt. BillG will call > > us Viral for saying that, but it's the Utopia I dream of :) > > > > Agreed again. > > Regards, > > Shlomi Fish > > > -- > > Big fish in a small pond > > Ira Abramov > > > > http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. > > Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. > > > > > > -- > Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ > > There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 > chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
