Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks a Lot Tee
what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using a
Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive then
table- you have another element- the clearing one.


Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for
things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like
a table would acheive the visual effect you want.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

Thanks a Lot Tee
what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using a
Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive then
table- you have another element- the clearing one.


On 2/22/07, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Feb 21, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Shlomi Asaf wrote:

> thanks alot Christian for your answer, u given me data that i
> wasent aware about.
>
>
> What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and
> display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not
> supported in enough browsers yet.

Well, I used the method for a site. Doesn't work for  IE Mac 5.2 but
this browser support was not needed.

Work for IE 5.5 and above, all Gecko broswer except Netscape 4.x
which is expected. IE is given 100% height, overflow hidden, negative
paddings and float. I would say the browser support is good enough to
make it on commercial site.


http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=325739
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/sh-all/home_loggedout-new.html


quick example for your desired layout

#wrap {display: table}
div.content {display: table-row}
div.float {display: cell }



 first column
 second column
 third  column






 first column second row
 second column second row
 third  column second row




Safari can be a bit tricky, it seems that without #wrap, other
browser stills display well. For some strange reason, padding didn't
seem to work for .float, as a result I was forced to use white thick
borders to seperate each block. There were times client requested
blocks position be shifted, thus messed up Safari quite a bit, any
inner content wrap (in my case, the table) without width declared
makes Safari wacky too.

Clear both absolutely needed for each row.

All credit goes to Georg as without his pointer and help, I was not
able to do my job for this layout.

Hope this helps!

tee





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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Steve Olive]

On Friday 23 February 2007 17:35, Tim wrote:
> Easy. Tell them to "Right click" the search button and open results in
> a new window.
> Anything else will fail to validate as a strict doctype and be less
> accessible.
>
> Tim
> ]
>
> On 23/02/2007, at 5:09 PM, Gallagher, Robin wrote:
> > Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the
> > results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do
> > this in xhtml 1.1?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Robin Gallagher

Hi,

The alternate is to use JavaScript:

window.open('url to open','window name','attribute1,attribute2')

IMHO, if a significant proportion of users are requesting this feature, you 
should offer users the option of a new window with one button and the same 
window or a tab with just a text link.

This option will get a number of standardistas upset - but look at the total 
site traffic, not just the requests for this "feature", and then make your 
decision.


-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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RE: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Nisha Kumari]

Hi 

I have done all following changes in my jsp page. I am using struts and
even have saved my Hindi text in a application recourse file and have
save that file in a UTF-8 encoding format. 

I can see in browser the encoding is getting set to UTF-8 because of the
jsp tag (<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8"
contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>).

But still its showing me something other than Hindi (may be garbag). I
tried commenting out the page encoding from jsp page and then I
explicitly changed the page encoding from browser then the text appears
perfectly in Hindi. 

What could be the reason? 

Regards,
Nisha.


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:11 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting
corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:
> I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when I
am
> trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
> value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
> corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.
>
> I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
> more?

This is a little off topic for this list, but you need to check that you

have handled all the encoding issues correctly.  You need to declare 
both the encoding of the actual JSP file and the encoding served to 
browsers.  Unfortunately, JSP defaults to ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8, 
but it's relatively easy to handle using the @page directive at the top 
of every JSP file.

<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8" contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>

The encoding attribute specifies the actual encoding of the file (you 
need to ensure your editor is actually saving in UTF-8).  The 
contentType attribute specifies the HTTP Content-Type header to be sent 
to UAs.  If the  2 declared encodings differ, then JSP will transcode it

before sending.

Ideally, there should be a way to set these as defaults in web.xml for 
the application server, but I've never successfully found a way to do
it.

You should then verify that the document received by browses is actually

encoded in UTF-8.  If you've done the above correctly, it will be, but 
check anyway.

Browsers will submit form data in the same encoding as the page.  So 
unless the user explicitly changes it from UTF-8, then it will be UTF-8.

  Finally, you need to make sure your form processing on the server side

is actually accepting and interpreting the form submission as UTF-8.  It

should do so if you added the @page directive correctly.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Lindsay Evans]

On 2/23/07, Gallagher, Robin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the results
open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do this in xhtml
1.1?


Hi Robin,

Roger Johansson has a pretty good (and easy to implement) script:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/opening_new_windows_with_javascript_version_12/

I'd also suggest having the open in new window functionality as an
option that the users can disable, if they feel so inclined. Or,
ideally, as something they can opt-in for.

--
Lindsay Evans
http://lindsayevans.com/


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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Tim]

Easy. Tell them to "Right click" the search button and open results in 
a new window.
Anything else will fail to validate as a strict doctype and be less 
accessible.


Tim
]
On 23/02/2007, at 5:09 PM, Gallagher, Robin wrote:

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the 
results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do 
this in xhtml 1.1?


Thanks

Robin Gallagher
DSTO Intranet & Internet Manager
(03) 9626 7386



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The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

Check out footerStickAlt from the man in blue - 
http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2005/08/29/
Your css looks similar - you might read through his write-up and see 
if there are some clues. I notice that he uses position: relative for 
the footer, which you don't, and that might keep the footer in the 
normal flow. Just a thought.
Thanks Rolf - looked at several options for footer sticking - will start 
again.


Lyn



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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

* html, body { height: 100%;}
* html #container {height: 1%;}

The first one is wrong because there's a comma in there and you're 
applying a rule that you already have on the body and the second one 
isn't needed because you've already applied a height to #container.

Thanks for that John - I can see that now!



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[WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Gallagher, Robin]

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the
results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do this
in xhtml 1.1?

Thanks

> Robin Gallagher
> DSTO Intranet & Internet Manager
> (03) 9626 7386
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Rolf SF]

Lynn,

Check out footerStickAlt from the man in blue - http:// 
www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2005/08/29/
Your css looks similar - you might read through his write-up and see  
if there are some clues. I notice that he uses position: relative for  
the footer, which you don't, and that might keep the footer in the  
normal flow. Just a thought.


Rolf

On Feb 22, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Lyn Patterson wrote:



It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the  
problem. If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you  
might want to look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.





http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than  
with far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to  
occur in IE at res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and  
in Fx at 800 x 600 it is fine but at the lower res in IE the  
footer jumps up and some of it disappears behind other content.   
Have tried all sorts of fixes but obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au






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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[John Faulds]

Looks OK at my end. The two other things I'd remove would be:

* html, body { height: 100%;}
* html #container {height: 1%;}

The first one is wrong because there's a comma in there and you're  
applying a rule that you already have on the body and the second one isn't  
needed because you've already applied a height to #container.


On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:08:39 +1000, Lyn Patterson  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem.  
If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want to  
look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.









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Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem. 
If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want 
to look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.





http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than with 
far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to occur in IE 
at res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and in Fx at 800 x 
600 it is fine but at the lower res in IE the footer jumps up and 
some of it disappears behind other content.  Have tried all sorts of 
fixes but obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au






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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[John Faulds]

It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem. If  
it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want to look  
at a different implementation.


On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:36:47 +1000, Lyn Patterson  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Good morning

http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than with  
far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to occur in IE at  
res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and in Fx at 800 x 600 it  
is fine but at the lower res in IE the footer jumps up and some of it  
disappears behind other content.  Have tried all sorts of fixes but  
obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au


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Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Lachlan Hunt]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:

I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when I am
trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.

I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
more?


This is a little off topic for this list, but you need to check that you 
have handled all the encoding issues correctly.  You need to declare 
both the encoding of the actual JSP file and the encoding served to 
browsers.  Unfortunately, JSP defaults to ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8, 
but it's relatively easy to handle using the @page directive at the top 
of every JSP file.


<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8" contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>

The encoding attribute specifies the actual encoding of the file (you 
need to ensure your editor is actually saving in UTF-8).  The 
contentType attribute specifies the HTTP Content-Type header to be sent 
to UAs.  If the  2 declared encodings differ, then JSP will transcode it 
before sending.


Ideally, there should be a way to set these as defaults in web.xml for 
the application server, but I've never successfully found a way to do it.


You should then verify that the document received by browses is actually 
encoded in UTF-8.  If you've done the above correctly, it will be, but 
check anyway.


Browsers will submit form data in the same encoding as the page.  So 
unless the user explicitly changes it from UTF-8, then it will be UTF-8. 
 Finally, you need to make sure your form processing on the server side 
is actually accepting and interpreting the form submission as UTF-8.  It 
should do so if you added the @page directive correctly.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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[WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

Good morning

http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than with 
far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to occur in IE at 
res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and in Fx at 800 x 600 it 
is fine but at the lower res in IE the footer jumps up and some of it 
disappears behind other content.  Have tried all sorts of fixes but 
obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au


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RE: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Jermayn Parker]

One I remember is the discussion about a persons dvd list. I remember because I 
personally use a table for my Phantom comic collection, so much easier than 
using anything else...



>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 23/02/2007 2:05:59 am >>>
"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 22 February 2007 16:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be 
> seen by most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I 
> suspect the actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although 
> most on this list would likely agree with the statement.
> 
> Steve

Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are not
all that indicative of the real world).

Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Tee G. Peng]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:


Hi All.

I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when  
I am

trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.

I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
more?


Hi Nisha,

I don't know Hindi, know no JSP so can't be of help!

But something you maybe overlook. Does your Hindi text unicode?  
Changing the charset to utf-8 directly from the header isn't good  
enough, you need the document to be utf-8 encoding. In Dreamwever and  
BBedit, I can change that from "Preferences" or 'properity'. And the  
Urdu/Hindi font needs to be Unicode font. If you use PC, Vista maybe  
come with Unicode fonts but I am not sure about XP though.


tee



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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[Rolf SF]

Thanks Paul, and Eugenio

I did validate the code (no errors). I'm just checking to see if  
there's something I missed, trying to understand why Visual Studio  
would report an error.




On Feb 22, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Rolf SF wrote:
I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to  
include a span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning:  
Element 'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'


According to the HTML 4.01 DTD, caption can contain inline  
elements. As span is an inline element, you should therefore be fine.




If you're unsure about this sort of thing, run your output through  
the W3C validator...


--
Patrick H. Lauke




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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Rolf SF wrote:
I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to 
include a span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning: Element 
'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'


According to the HTML 4.01 DTD, caption can contain inline elements. As 
span is an inline element, you should therefore be fine.




If you're unsure about this sort of thing, run your output through the 
W3C validator...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[TuteC]

Caption and span are inline elements, I don't see any problems in merging them.
Checked an example code at W3C HTML validator, and it validated ok.
Best regards;
Eugenio Costa.

On 2/22/07, Rolf SF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to include a
span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning: Element
'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'



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[WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[Rolf SF]

I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to  
include a span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning:  
Element 'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'


Anyone?

Thanks,
Rolf

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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

Designer wrote:

However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so 
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a 
table with cells" - Isn't it? 


No, it is like saying "This isn't tabular data, but I want a tabular 
layout, so my markup is not going to claim tabular semantics, but my 
stylesheet is going to specify tabular display".



--
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[TuteC]

I think it is a solution for preventing the use of layout tables. I
wish I could use it, so a modern browser can see a nicely organized
site, a palm a linearized site, and a screen reader can read the
contents. A sort of way to device independency.
Regards;
Eugenio Costa.

On 2/22/07, Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks to all who responded. I must say that I basically agree with most
of what was said, but a few things still bother me, semantic-wise.
Firstly, doing it 'properly' could be seen as using the following:

#grid {display : table; }

#colalpha { width : 28em; display : table-cell; padding : 10px;  }

#colbeta {  width : 14em; background : #f1f1f1; display : table-cell;
vertical-align : middle; padding : 10px;}

However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a
table with cells" - Isn't it?   And, if so, that is no more semantic
than using a table, inasmuch as if the content isn't tabular, then don't
structure it in a tabular way - and if it is, then fine : use a table.

Which leaves me wondering what the point of 'display : table' actually is?

Anyone?

--
Bob



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Thanks to all who responded. I must say that I basically agree with most 
of what was said, but a few things still bother me, semantic-wise. 
Firstly, doing it 'properly' could be seen as using the following:


#grid {display : table; }

#colalpha { width : 28em; display : table-cell; padding : 10px;  }

	#colbeta {  width : 14em; background : #f1f1f1; display : table-cell; 
vertical-align : middle; padding : 10px;}


However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so 
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a 
table with cells" - Isn't it?   And, if so, that is no more semantic 
than using a table, inasmuch as if the content isn't tabular, then don't 
structure it in a tabular way - and if it is, then fine : use a table.


Which leaves me wondering what the point of 'display : table' actually is?

Anyone?

--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Steve Green wrote:

"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


Aha... No, I do understand - inappropriate use considering the context 
of the data, right? I've seen it as well, and tried to steer people away 
from it.


It's just that you often bring insights into screen reader issues. I 
thought you might hold some terrible secret as to a method for 
mutilating accessibility with  structures (which would have been 
great fun)!



Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] re: please help me make this design work some way in firefox an ie

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi,

It appears you are missing a closing quote:

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of varun krishnan
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:12 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] re: please help me make this design work some way in firefox
an ie

Hi Guys,

I am working on this design

http://www.vk123.com/modx/

The footer is  not rendering sometimes properly in firefox.

What Could  be the reason ?

thanks,

Varun


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[WSG] re: please help me make this design work some way in firefox an ie

[varun krishnan]

Hi Guys,

I am working on this design

http://www.vk123.com/modx/

The footer is  not rendering sometimes properly in firefox.

What Could  be the reason ?

thanks,

Varun


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RE: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Steve Green]

"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 22 February 2007 16:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be 
> seen by most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I 
> suspect the actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although 
> most on this list would likely agree with the statement.
> 
> Steve

Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are not
all that indicative of the real world).

Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:48:21 -, Barney Carroll  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



David Dorward wrote:

Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.
 Looks tabular to me.


Isn't the first precept of semantic markup that looks are no guide as to  
what things actually are?


The description of the data structure looks[1] tabular, the default  
presentation of that data structure is immaterial.


[1] in the sense "give a certain impression" not "the act of directing the  
eyes toward something and perceiving it visually"


--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Seb Neerman]

I think it depends how you'll lay it out.

If you're thinking about those ugly looking calendars on a blog's  
side column, or a funkier 2.oh calendar webapp, then yes. It's gonna  
be tabular.


If you're going to lay out a list item per month or week as one long  
scrolly page, with every day on a separate line, then it's gonna be a  
list.



Seb




On 22 Feb 2007, at 17:25, Andrew Maben wrote:


On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a  
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."








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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

David Dorward wrote:

Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.

Looks tabular to me.


Isn't the first precept of semantic markup that looks are no guide as to 
what things actually are?



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Andrew Maben wrote:
Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a 
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


Not in the truest sense.

A calendar relies on one axis alone - time. By putting it into a table, 
you are artificially constraining its info on false premises.


For instance, a small calendar might be the combination of two axes: 
time of day, and day:


  Mon Tue Wed ...
08:00
09:00
10:00
...

...or you could put it another way: day of the week, and week number:

   Mon Tue Wed ...
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
...

...or day number, and month:

1  2  3  ...
Jan
Feb
Mar
...

But all these things are incompatible. If you have it as a highly styled 
list item:



 Jan
  
   1

 08:00
  ...

You leave all those options open, and you're being less deceptive in 
your grouping the only true [linear] factor, time, into two subjective 
and inter-related systems.


Of course, for any kind of convenience, you're probably better off with 
one of the table methods. But I still maintain than in purest concept, 
it is not tabular data.



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[luiz gustavo aleagi nunes]

Hello Andrew,

I think a calendar could be a tabular data or not.

You can make a calendar without a table at all.

Semantics is all about this, discussion what is right or wrong (it
leads you to anywhere but hey, we're humand and this is what we do, we
arguee and discuss all the time).

I mean, if you would like to use a table to insert you calendar cells,
go ahead, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you're an extremist
and don't like tabless at all, make it tableless.

Of course, don't wrap a image or a form in a table, it really sux!

Best Regards from Brazil,
Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes
-
http://sapiensdc.com.br
"Nosce te ipsum"



On 2/22/07, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up calendars
using floated s (or, possibly, s).

Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a calendar
tabular data?

Andrew



109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."








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Re: [WSG] Rewriting site - help, please.

[luiz gustavo aleagi nunes]

Hello Andrew,

There's a free tool to show you how you site will look in different
browsers and plataforms:
http://browsershots.org/

Take a time and submit you URL in there.

About your design, I like it, it's light, clean but the code it's kind
of full of redundancies...

For instance:

home
services
portfolio
contact
login


You don't have to declare the classes for all LIs in this UL, because
they're not different and you'll economize some bytes with that and,
of course, will be more semantic

Another tip, try to code your HTML with XHTML 1.1 Strict. It's a lot
easier to reache accessibility standards because it is very hard and
demand semantics all the time.

Good luck with you projects!

Best Regards from Brazil,

Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes
-
http://sapiensdc.com.br
"Nosce te ipsum"


On 2/22/07, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

OK - time to take the plunge...

I'm rewriting my site in what I hope is the 'right' way - semantic,
standards-compliant, accessible.

I've got a small problem on the home page: The bottom borders of the nav
items don't show up in IE7 (and I don't have IE6).

Any help with that (and any other comments) would be much appreciated:
 (just the index page, any deeper and you'll
find PHP errors)


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."
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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:25:42 -, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a
calendar tabular data?


Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.

Looks tabular to me.


--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a  
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."









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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be seen by
most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I suspect the
actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although most on this list
would likely agree with the statement.

Steve


Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking 
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are 
not all that indicative of the real world).


Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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[WSG] Rewriting site - help, please.

[Andrew Maben]

OK - time to take the plunge...

I'm rewriting my site in what I hope is the 'right' way - semantic,  
standards-compliant, accessible.


I've got a small problem on the home page: The bottom borders of the  
nav items don't show up in IE7 (and I don't have IE6).


Any help with that (and any other comments) would be much appreciated:
 (just the index page, any deeper and  
you'll find PHP errors)


Andrew

109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 22 Feb 2007, at 12:07:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

A far bigger problem in my opinion is this recent fad for placing  
tabular data

in definition lists. Where did that come from? The result really is
incomprehensible because even the best screen readers can make  
little sense of
the resulting code, no matter how semantically perfect it might be,  
whereas
there are numerous tools for reading and navigating data tables if  
they are

marked up correctly.


The widespread abuse of definition lists is indeed a baffling  
phenomenon, and almost every example I've seen is best characterised  
as completely ignoring the semantics of such a list - although the  
person responsible will claim that it's "more semantic" than a table.


It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


I think that when people get the idea that "tables shouldn't be used  
for layout" they somehow end up translating that into their heads as  
"tables should never be used for any purpose whatsoever". When faced  
with clearly tabular data, they then scratch around in Google looking  
for some "semantically pure" way of representing it, and finish up  
following articles with all these crazy s, never truly  
understanding what they're doing and why it's so wrong. In fact, I  
think some people believe "semantically correct" is a synonymous term  
for "not having any  elements."


Given the range of accessibility features built into the   
model (things like colgroup, and the axis, scope and headers  
attributes) it's clearly of great potential benefit to users of  
assistive devices if tables are used properly as needed (i.e. for  
tabular data). I believe that many current assistive technologies  
make little use of such features, but that's probably because those  
features are so seldom used in the wild. Perhaps if we abandoned our  
shenanigans with definition lists and started marking up our tables  
correctly, we could make it worthwhile for the manufacturers of such  
technologies to support those features.


(End rant.)

Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Charles Eaton]

On Feb 21, 2007, at 2:28 AM, David Dorward wrote:

Invisible text is hard to read against any background colour, and  
you can't depend on images being loaded. This thread started  
because of issues with alt text on image maps not showing up when  
images weren't there.


... that will teach me to read the whole thread!
Have a look in my sandbox, i think i found a solution. www.eatons.net/sandbox/no-map.html>


The OBJECT model

Two ref's: 


It tested well in Firefox and Opera on the Mac (Note: OK, but not as  
well in Safari???)

I don't know how it handles on Explorer in Windows???

-chuck


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[WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Nisha Kumari]

Hi All.

I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when I am
trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.

I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
more?


Regards,
Nisha




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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Designer wrote:
It seems to me that pragmatism can sometimes outbenefit the religion 
of standards - and I'd really like some real world feedback on when 
such a table approach causes real problems.   (Yes, I know it's not 
truly semantic, and I agree that it's a problem because of that).


If web standards is a religion, then I'm out of here :-)

As long as you know - and have gone through - all pros and cons, then it
comes down to "taking the heat" for using that 'HTML table'. No browsers
will ever cause real problems because of it.

The only problem I can see is that one may start feeling so "safe" with
that old 'HTML table' solution that one stop exploring the various "pure
CSS" solutions (with workarounds and all) for a while. Browsers and
standards are improving - albeit slowly, so one may have a bit of
"catching up" to do one day in the future.
Less experienced web designers may also be lead to think that there are
fewer options at hand than there really are, and that won't help on
progress.

I'm pragmatic, and pretty agnostic, when it comes to standards and
"standard-compliant" browsers. I don't think I will fall back to using
'HTML tables' as layout tools though, as I think it is safer to hack
IE/win and other old browsers to pieces in CSS and keep the source-code
relatively free from such hacks, while I'm waiting for standards to work
as intended across the board.

Now, if only I knew the _intentions_ behind the various parts of those
standards, so I knew what to expect ;-)

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[stevegreen]

Barney is right about screen readers and tables. The behaviour varies insofar
as some screen readers (such as Fire Vox) announce the presence of all the
tables, some don't announce them at all and some (such as JAWS) announce some
tables and not others. I am not sure how it decides which it does and does not
announce. In any case users can usually identify and ignore the markup for
layout tables very easily.

A far bigger problem in my opinion is this recent fad for placing tabular data
in definition lists. Where did that come from? The result really is
incomprehensible because even the best screen readers can make little sense of
the resulting code, no matter how semantically perfect it might be, whereas
there are numerous tools for reading and navigating data tables if they are
marked up correctly.

I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be seen by
most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I suspect the
actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although most on this list
would likely agree with the statement.

Steve



Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> As long as you have an audio-only disclaimer just before stating "The 
> following object does not contain tabular data". Otherwise screen 
> readers (supposedly) and standardist developers browsing your site in 
> view-source mode (as one does) will get halfway through the content of 
> your first  and suddenly come to the horrifying realisation "What's 
> going on?! This isn't cross-referencing data!" and will lose all sense 
> of context, suffer psychotic episodes, and never visit your site again.
> 
> If you can live with that, go ahead. Just remove that beautiful-looking 
> W3 tick logo from the bottom of your pages.
> 
> [/joke]
> 
> It is all semantics, and will be seen by most designers as fundamentally 
> incorrect and misleading. However your page will still be valid and 
> accessible, and it's very hard to conceive of a realistic user persona 
> whose experience would suffer from this.
> 
> There is a lot of mythology about screen-readers being utterly thrown by 
> tables, but at the end of the day tables operate as you'd expect, in a 
> linear fashion (as they are written in the code) - which is just how 
> your layout would be written anyway. The name in and of itself of the 
> tags is the only real contention here.
> 
> So practically, you wouldn't be inconveniencing your users, but in 
> theory you're wrong wrong wrong. Be warned.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Barney
> 
> 
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> 
> 





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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Bob,

As long as you have an audio-only disclaimer just before stating "The 
following object does not contain tabular data". Otherwise screen 
readers (supposedly) and standardist developers browsing your site in 
view-source mode (as one does) will get halfway through the content of 
your first  and suddenly come to the horrifying realisation "What's 
going on?! This isn't cross-referencing data!" and will lose all sense 
of context, suffer psychotic episodes, and never visit your site again.


If you can live with that, go ahead. Just remove that beautiful-looking 
W3 tick logo from the bottom of your pages.


[/joke]

It is all semantics, and will be seen by most designers as fundamentally 
incorrect and misleading. However your page will still be valid and 
accessible, and it's very hard to conceive of a realistic user persona 
whose experience would suffer from this.


There is a lot of mythology about screen-readers being utterly thrown by 
tables, but at the end of the day tables operate as you'd expect, in a 
linear fashion (as they are written in the code) - which is just how 
your layout would be written anyway. The name in and of itself of the 
tags is the only real contention here.


So practically, you wouldn't be inconveniencing your users, but in 
theory you're wrong wrong wrong. Be warned.



Regards,
Barney


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[WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Following on from recent conversations about floats etc, we can
summarise by saying that we can have three basic choices:

1.

#grid {display : table}

#colalpha { width : 58%; padding-right :20px; display : 
table-cell; }

#colbeta {  width : 38%; background : #f1f1f1; padding : 0 20px;
display : table-cell; vertical-align : middle; }

which works upon the following structure (but only in Firefox and Opera):


  
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus
venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet
leo at
  lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce
pulvinar. Nunc
  varius pellentesque velit. 
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus
venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet
leo at
  lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce
pulvinar. Nunc
  varius pellentesque velit. 
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus
venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet
leo at
  lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce
pulvinar. Nunc
  varius pellentesque velit. 
  
  
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus
venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet
leo at
  lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce
pulvinar. Nunc
  varius pellentesque velit. 
  


This is the standardista's dream. No floats, all equal length heights
etc.  It just doesn't work in most browsers.  (That's all! :-)

However, instead of 'pretending' to have a table, you can actually have
one, viz:



  
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae
risus venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque
sit amet
  leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget
nisl. Fusce
  pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. 
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae
risus venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque
sit amet
  leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget
nisl. Fusce
  pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. 
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae
risus venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque
sit amet
  leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget
nisl. Fusce
  pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. 
  
  
Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae
risus venenatis
  molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque
sit amet
  leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget
nisl. Fusce
  pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. 
  

  

And this does work, in virtually everything.

So, my (genuine) question is, is this really so wrong?  So long as it's
kept really simple, which way is easier to read in a screen reader?
(Include the floated and hacked to death standards version as a third
alternative too).

It seems to me that pragmatism can sometimes outbenefit the religion of
standards - and I'd really like some real world feedback on when such a
table approach causes real problems.   (Yes, I know it's not truly
semantic, and I agree that it's a problem because of that).

Thanks


--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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