Re: Recommended agents
Simon Wilcox wrote: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote: In this case, however, they will be the lead of only two sysadmins and I want someone to come in and take a long term responsibility. However you look at it, no amount of documentation makes up for practical experience of the system you are supporting. If you change sys admins every 6-12 months you end up with a layered environment, each layer developed to a sysadmins personal taste with probably all sorts of little incompatibilities. Do wish to sound argumentative (as a contractor) - but, high job turnover in IT [1] would suggest that a permie will leave in 12 months or not long after anyway. Although I can see your point about practicle experience being lost - but this will happen what ever the employment position. On searching for someone could the LLUG not help - or what about a direct add on jobserve. Greg [1] Could not find any real figures but put staff turnover UK IT figures into google and hit I feel lucky button !
Re: Recommended agents
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:31:33 +0100 (BST) Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However you look at it, no amount of documentation makes up for practical experience of the system you are supporting. If you change sys admins every 6-12 months you end up with a layered environment, each layer developed to a sysadmins personal taste with probably all sorts of little incompatibilities. Then set up a WikiWiki for your documentation. It's quick and easy enough that it actually gets used. Note - this is in a small company scenario where there is rarely any kind of handover period from one person to the next, unlike a larger company where you might change 1 of 4 or more and have the benefit of collective experience. This collective experience should be minimised; staff should use the rule that no knowledge only in their head(s) should be critical to the operation, maintenance or further development of your systems. As my father said to me, the biggest problem with the computer industry is all of the gurus Sam.
Re: Recommended agents
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Greg Cope wrote: Simon Wilcox wrote: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote: In this case, however, they will be the lead of only two sysadmins and I want someone to come in and take a long term responsibility. However you look at it, no amount of documentation makes up for practical experience of the system you are supporting. If you change sys admins every 6-12 months you end up with a layered environment, each layer developed to a sysadmins personal taste with probably all sorts of little incompatibilities. Do wish to sound argumentative (as a contractor) - but, high job turnover in IT would suggest that a permie will leave in 12 months or not long after anyway. This has been true but I suspect [1] that the motivation to leave is different. Permanent people generally want security (for various reasons) and only leave when they feel their existing employer is not meeting their needs, be it pay, training, working conditions etc. As long as I, as a manager, meet the needs of my team in respect of pay/training/cool projects etc, and treat them with respect as intelligent individuals (and not as Human Resources) then there should be no need for someone to leave for a considerable time. On searching for someone could the LLUG not help - or what about a direct add on jobserve. Good idea (also suggested by some others). actionJoins GGLUG mailing list /action. Thanks for the tip. Simon. [1] On the basis of absolutely *no* empirical evidence :-)
Re: Recommended agents
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Sam Vilain wrote: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:31:33 +0100 (BST) Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However you look at it, no amount of documentation makes up for practical experience of the system you are supporting. If you change sys admins every 6-12 months you end up with a layered environment, each layer developed to a sysadmins personal taste with probably all sorts of little incompatibilities. Then set up a WikiWiki for your documentation. It's quick and easy enough that it actually gets used. Good idea, I shall give it a go. Anyone have any practical experience of making this work ? Note - this is in a small company scenario where there is rarely any kind of handover period from one person to the next, unlike a larger company where you might change 1 of 4 or more and have the benefit of collective experience. This collective experience should be minimised; staff should use the rule that no knowledge only in their head(s) should be critical to the operation, maintenance or further development of your systems. I agree 110%, except practical experience again suggests that this almost never getes externalised when you have a team smaller than 3. It is also extremely difficult, in any size of team, to externalise the implicit troubleshooting experience of your team. This is why most Knowledge Management projects have failed. But we still carry on trying :-) As my father said to me, the biggest problem with the computer industry is all of the gurus Amen to that :-) Simon.
Re: Recommended agents
On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:41:23AM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: Then set up a WikiWiki for your documentation. It's quick and easy enough that it actually gets used. Good idea, I shall give it a go. Anyone have any practical experience of making this work ? http://twiki.sourceforge.net/ is a fair implementation[1]. One of the main reasons that I chose it is that it keeps a complete revision history of every topic. That removed one of the main objections that the auditors/managers had to editable documentation. The wiki concept is very powerful, and like all powerful things is is easily misunderstood. I'd say you need to spend half an hour demonstrating the HowAndWhyOfWiki before allowing anyone to write anything. Starting with an empty wiki makes it difficult for people to grasp how it should be done, and you need to have a librarian that is willing to spend time editing your peoples' contributions so that they fit in with the WikiWay... -- Steve [1] And don't worry, you can change the colours to something more subtle.
Re: Recommended agents
Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So I still need a permenent linux/apache/samba sysadmin, the people I've spoken to offlist either want to be perl developers or work on contract [1]. Have you tried a London LUG? #dl-bar on IRC? -- David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire -- chmod a+x /bin/laden --
RE: Recommended agents
From: Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/1/01 11:01:07 AM Does anyone have any good recommendations from the recruiting side rather than the candidate side [2] ? [2] I suspect there would be a large overlap however. IMO there is a large overlap. I'd recommend companies like Harvey Nash, Elan and ERS. I'd avoid at all costs MSB, Computer People and Computer Futures. hth, Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk Let me see you make decisions, without your television - Depeche Mode (Stripped)
Re: Recommended agents
On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 10:01:07AM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: So I still need a permenent linux/apache/samba sysadmin, the people I've spoken to offlist either want to be perl developers or work on contract What is for you the advantage of a perm. sysadmin versus a very responsive contractor? By very responsive I mean a contractor with whom you've entered into an SLA, e.g. 30min hour problem acknowledgement from cell call within business hours. Paul
Re: Recommended agents
Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 10:01:07AM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: So I still need a permenent linux/apache/samba sysadmin, the people I've spoken to offlist either want to be perl developers or work on contract What is for you the advantage of a perm. sysadmin versus a very responsive contractor? By very responsive I mean a contractor with whom you've entered into an SLA, e.g. 30min hour problem acknowledgement from cell call within business hours. But do they get their round in? -- David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire -- chmod a+x /bin/laden --
Re: Recommended agents
From: Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/1/01 11:29:50 AM On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 10:01:07AM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: So I still need a permenent linux/apache/samba sysadmin, the people I've spoken to offlist either want to be perl developers or work on contract What is for you the advantage of a perm. sysadmin versus a very responsive contractor? By very responsive I mean a contractor with whom you've entered into an SLA, e.g. 30min hour problem acknowledgement from cell call within business hours. In my experience this is likely to be a PHB-imposed restriction. They seem to thing that permies are more likely to be company men and will be more easily cajoled into doing things beyond the call of duty for the love of the company. Of course, they also seem to be more likely to carry pagers 24x7 for no extra money - whereas no sane contractor would consider such a thing :) Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk Let me see you make decisions, without your television - Depeche Mode (Stripped)
Re: Recommended agents
From: Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/1/01 12:43:05 PM On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 04:32:50AM -0700, Dave Cross wrote: In my experience this is likely to be a PHB-imposed restriction. They seem to thing that permies are more likely to be company men and will be more easily cajoled into doing things beyond the call of duty for the love of the company. Hmm, clearly these last few years have taught these people nothing. Mind you, I _have_ seen permies put ridiculous amounts of work for little or no material reward[1]. I used to think that company loyalty went out of fashion 20 years ago, but most of the employees here (Acxiom) seem to have been here for almost ten years. That's something that I never thought I'd see again. Dave... [1] Hope all the QXL employees who were doing 48 and 72-hour stints whilst I was working 8-hour days cashed in their share options _before_ the price fell to 10p. -- http://www.dave.org.uk Let me see you make decisions, without your television - Depeche Mode (Stripped)
Re: Recommended agents
* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I used to think that company loyalty went out of fashion 20 years ago, but most of the employees here (Acxiom) seem to have been here for almost ten years. That's something that I never thought I'd see again. I don't think I believe in company loyalty, I believe in a contract, and I'm not talking about the bit of paper you sign along with the NDA. I mean a contract that the company will treat you well in return for you doing your damn best for the company no matter if you are a permie, contractor, freelancer or consultant. For what its worth 2 out of the 3 companies that I feel the most loyalty or rather wish to do good by them are companies that employed me as a non-permie, they are in order of time, not loyalty to the company, 1. The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (Civil Service) The time my view was perhaps the most socialist, in the true meaning of the word was with the government, I learned an awful lot about how they work, and yes they do have problems, but they have a fairly good system which means that while they may not be running at peak efficiency, most of the time they do not cock up too badly. 2. Ebookers.com A company that I felt could of had the best of systems, and that those systems could of went on and translated very clearly into income for the company. I wrote a letter to management two weeks before I left, that was only paid lip services, it broke my heart to leave. 3. The BBC The BBC is not the place to work if you are not in IT, they have so much wrong with this culture, it is disgusting, the Producer/Assistant Producer/etc. hierarch is vile. However they do appreciate you if you sucessed. I really wish I was DG so i could reward all those who do so much good work for so much little recognition. Thats it, Greg -- Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/
Re: Recommended agents
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote: On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 10:01:07AM +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote: So I still need a permenent linux/apache/samba sysadmin, the people I've spoken to offlist either want to be perl developers or work on contract What is for you the advantage of a perm. sysadmin versus a very responsive contractor? By very responsive I mean a contractor with whom you've entered into an SLA, e.g. 30min hour problem acknowledgement from cell call within business hours. IMO, contractors are useful and valuable people to have around for defined projects, resource cover or to bring specialist skills to an infrequent specific problem. In this case, however, they will be the lead of only two sysadmins and I want someone to come in and take a long term responsibility. However you look at it, no amount of documentation makes up for practical experience of the system you are supporting. If you change sys admins every 6-12 months you end up with a layered environment, each layer developed to a sysadmins personal taste with probably all sorts of little incompatibilities. Note - this is in a small company scenario where there is rarely any kind of handover period from one person to the next, unlike a larger company where you might change 1 of 4 or more and have the benefit of collective experience. I've found this reply incredibly difficult to write since so much of what I could say can be misconstrued and does not apply to many people on both sides of the fence. I have no wish to offend anyone with ill considered words so I think maybe it should be saved for The Three Cups on Thursday where it is more easily discussed and debated. Simon.
Re: Recommended agents
Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have no wish to offend anyone with ill considered words so I think maybe it should be saved for The Three Cups on Thursday where it is more easily discussed and debated. And where the lackey permies can argue with the prostitute contractors? -- David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire -- chmod a+x /bin/laden --
Re: Recommended agents
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Dave Cross wrote: In my experience this is likely to be a PHB-imposed restriction. They seem to thing that permies are more likely to be company men and will be more easily cajoled into doing things beyond the call of duty for the love of the company. discourse mode=devils advocate To turn it around another way, wouldn't you say that working for the love of it, for the respect of your peers and the camerarderie of achieving something is also kind of central to our whole hacker culture ? /discourse Obviously that does require that you actually *get* respect from the PHBs [1]. Of course, they also seem to be more likely to carry pagers 24x7 for no extra money - whereas no sane contractor would consider such a thing :) Depends on your point of view. If I was responsible for a system I would happily carry a pager [2] whether I was a contractor or not. Simon. [1] But then they wouldn't be PHBs I guess :-) [2] and have done on many occasions.
