Re: [LUAU] one last thing on perl
oh my.that's great. lol
On 11/23/05, Jim Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
''=~('(?{'.('_]@@+`'^'//)._@').''.('{_],`(_#@(^'^'+:/@@[EMAIL
PROTECTED]|').',$/})')
(Thats not line-noise, thats perl! Go ahead, run it.)
Inspired by: http://y99k.com/obfuscate.html
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It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three
unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience,
and the prudence never to practice either of them.
Mark Twain
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
I guess we've all talked about everything there is to talk about at the conference. Is there going to be a TPOSSCON 2006? If so, I would suggest some sort of lessons learned meeting to get everyone's input on how to make it even better. is this the dreaded meeting to set the agenda so we can have another meeting? You wouldn't need anything like that. Just show and give your feedback. The challenge for the person leading a meeting like this is not to let it turn into a bitch session, and keep any criticism constructive - while also keeping focus on what is realistic. (I am sure we would all like to receive a free Gucci leather jacket and a Faberge egg when we check in - or, as mentioned - coffee mugs) -Matt
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
Matt Darnell wrote: Is there going to be a TPOSSCON 2006? Yes. Dates are pending the scheduling of PTC and the Sony Open. If so, I would suggest some sort of lessons learned meeting to get everyone's input on how to make it even better. This meeting took place on Saturday. Ron Fox moderated. It was a *fantastic* follow-up to a rather amazing inaugural event that was full of flaws and promise. The discussion summary will be posted to hosef-managers and to the TPOSSCON Advisors. I think Scott is moving to the mainland, someone will have to step up. I think that you are most mistaken, though we always need someone to step up. My wife's service to the Army will continue in Missouri beginning this Summer. As a ROTC counselor, she'll be on the road many weeks out of the month, so I'll be staying back. HOSEF is just too close to becoming an institution for it to be left behind. I heard some positive comments about the HP guy that did the keynote thought that people felt that they got their money's worth. The HP guy guy is C.J. Coppersmith, Director of Linux Strategy and Business Development for HP. He was pleased, but would like to see us put more emphasis into a single day of complementary and focused business discussions. He took some very tough questions with extraordinary grace. While informative, it may have proven distracting to those wanting to keep their learning curve more simple. Brian Chee wrote: I also had a conversation with Robin and Pat of OSTG and they both agree that next year they want to give TPOSSCON alot more lead time so that they can slashdot it in japan and get them involved. The marketing and promotion begins next week. More time is good. The feedback I got from the speakers was quite positive with Robin of OSTG saying this fits nicely into an overall OSTG plan on LUG based mini-conventions around the country. The best thing about Robin is that he constantly and playfully harassed me over what could have been better. Jim Thompson wrote: I hope, if nothing else, TPOSSCON serves as a catalyst to foster a bit more community around Free and Open Source software in Hawaii. Catalyzing, it is. The energy was high, and I saw a lot of social networks grow. Maybe we could get Stallman or Eben Moglen to Hawaii if we put the Free in there somewhere. PFOSSCON, (Pacific Free and Open Source Software CONference), (pronounced FOSSCON) anyone? I was taken to task by RMS for not including free in the title. I even acquired tpfosscon.X, just in case. The attitude overwhelmed me, and I don't need someone getting paid like he does telling me how to fund giving free computers and support to schools. Matt Darnell wrote: The challenge for the person leading a meeting like this is not to let it turn into a bitch session, and keep any criticism constructive - while also keeping focus on what is realistic. (I am sure we would all like to receive a free Gucci leather jacket and a Faberge egg when we check in - or, as mentioned - coffee mugs) Ron Fox rose to and met the challenge magnificently. There was no need for bitching. We are adults. Besides, I have little tolerance for complaints without solutions. There are two kinds of people in the world, those who find problems and those who find solutions. We are attracted to the latter. Brian Chee wrote: What we've used in the past is this: - It should be a constructive criticism and not just a bitch. - each criticism should NEVER be directed at a person, that only gets personal - each criticism should also avoid detailed fixes, but more broad strokes - The group should also avoid getting lost in the nitty gritty, but concentrate on broad strokes. Thanks for the suggestions. Unless others disagree, I think this was pretty much the theme of the discussion. FYI, folks, we really do meet *every* Saturday at McKinley, and this really is a 2.5 year old, *consistent* gathering of a Group of Linux Users. Are we a LUG? I like to think so, but a little more. We are your LUG in Action. --scott -- R. Scott Belford Founder/Director The Hawaii Open Source Education Foundation PO Box 392 Kailua, HI 96734 808.689.6518 phone/fax [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 07:46:51PM -1000, James A. Stroble wrote: On Mon, 2005-01-24 at 17:36, Jim Thompson wrote: Consider, is anything on this page still accurate? http://www.sslug.dk/misc/ely.dkuug.dk/6-1-1-luau.html LUAU used to exist over at luau.hi.net, but now it is luau@lists.hosef.org, on a server provided by HOSEF donations over in Brian Chee's lab at UH. I believe the original acronym of LUAU cleverly stood for Linux Users AnonymoUs. It was later re-Christened Linux/Unix Advocates/Users by Warren. Since taking over moderation of the mailing list, I just call it LUAU, simply because the headers are less noisy. The principal names I have been able to dig up for the various incarnations for LUAU have been Ed Orcutt, Zach Taylor, and Warren Togami. With the inclusion of HOSEF, we have Scott Belford. I e-mailed Ed privately for some information, but got no response. I am unable to find Zach. Warren is too busy these days finishing up his schoolwork at UH Manoa while working at Red Hat. LUAU has not met for some years (was it '99?) and has only existed as a mailing list in the hands of various kind people. So this page is historically correct, but not of any current use. The Current LUG is HOSEF, although as a non-profit focussed on education, HOSEF does a lot more than many LUGs, and not quite as much of the normal user-orientated LUG things. For now, it is probably most accurate to refer to LUAU as a mailing list and HOSEF as the LUG [with a philanthropic purpose]. The list consists of roughly 275 active e-mail addresses. The number has not really changed since I became involved two years ago. The LUG aspect where people meet once a month to view a guest speaker does not exist. Warren presented a few topics at UH a few years ago, but stopped due to time commitments and the inabilty to find guest speakers. If someone has the time and dedication to pick up the responsiblity of finding speakers, we should be able to find a time and place to meet. At the very least, this could be rolled into the weekly workshops at McKinley. -Vince
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
Vince Hoang wrote: If someone has the time and dedication to pick up the responsiblity of finding speakers, we should be able to find a time and place to meet. At the very least, this could be rolled into the weekly workshops at McKinley. Let me add that Joe O'Malley and Commercial Data Systems have offered to host meetings. For those of you working in town and wanting some OSS-focused seminars and speakers, they are willing to be a resource. Perhaps we should start scheduling lunch sessions, or whatever the list suggests. -Vince --scott
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
I also had a conversation with Robin and Pat of OSTG and they both agree that next year they want to give TPOSSCON alot more lead time so that they can slashdot it in japan and get them involved. The feedback I got from the speakers was quite positive with Robin of OSTG saying this fits nicely into an overall OSTG plan on LUG based mini-conventions around the country. Next year I have to make sure I'm not traveling during the show and then I can dedicate alot more lab resources to this projectbut yeah, we're going to need another scott if he's not here next year /brian chee University of Hawaii ICS Dept Advanced Network Computing Lab 1680 East West Road, POST rm 311 Honolulu, HI 96822 808-956-5797 voice, 877-284-1934 fax - Original Message - From: Matt Darnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUAU luau@lists.hosef.org Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on? I guess we've all talked about everything there is to talk about at the conference. Is there going to be a TPOSSCON 2006? If so, I would suggest some sort of lessons learned meeting to get everyone's input on how to make it even better. I think Scott is moving to the mainland, someone will have to step up. I heard some positive comments about the HP guy that did the keynote thought that people felt that they got their money's worth. Aloha, Matt ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
Matt Darnell wrote: I guess we've all talked about everything there is to talk about at the conference. Is there going to be a TPOSSCON 2006? If so, I would suggest some sort of lessons learned meeting to get everyone's input on how to make it even better. More people. I think Scott is moving to the mainland, someone will have to step up. Man, if this is true, then its news to me. I spoke with Scott a couple times at TPOSSCON, and he made statements twice that planning for TPOSSCON 06 would start in February. I heard some positive comments about the HP guy that did the keynote thought that people felt that they got their money's worth. Personally, I thought Bruce Perens could have done more than read from his paper. He seems to enjoy taking credit for all that has happened in open source since 1999, even though he quit OSI in disgust over the plethora of licenses. Maddog Hall was entertaining, and the very voice of reason throughout the conference. The Sun guy was refreshing. He seemed to really grok what needed to happen, and his answers/presentation were not the syrupy marketing message that I anticipated. The GNUmed presentation was... graphic. I'll leave it at that. I was disappointed when Todd Ogasawara responded to my query with a complete rejection of the idea that Hawaii could ever have a high-tech community of any size. I hope he's wrong, for everyone's sake. I enjoyed meeting the other Jim Thompson during Matt Darnell's presentation. John Terpstra was interesting, and provided the ultimate counterpoint in many situations. I learned some stuff. I got to meet some people, both heroes of the revolution, as well as kamaaina. Some of you I knew from the list, but in many cases, you were new. In others, I (finally) got to put a face with a name. I hope, if nothing else, TPOSSCON serves as a catalyst to foster a bit more community around Free and Open Source software in Hawaii. Maybe we could get Stallman or Eben Moglen to Hawaii if we put the Free in there somewhere. PFOSSCON, (Pacific Free and Open Source Software CONference), (pronounced FOSSCON) anyone? Jim
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
Brian Chee wrote: I also had a conversation with Robin and Pat of OSTG and they both agree that next year they want to give TPOSSCON alot more lead time so that they can slashdot it in japan and get them involved. The feedback I got from the speakers was quite positive with Robin of OSTG saying this fits nicely into an overall OSTG plan on LUG based mini-conventions around the country. OK, first, what about this overall OSTG plan? It seems weird for an organization which is mostly about jornalism to have a strategy, no? Second, does Oahu/Hawaii/Honolulu have a LUG? Consider, is anything on this page still accurate? http://www.sslug.dk/misc/ely.dkuug.dk/6-1-1-luau.html Still, getting someone from Open PINO here would be cool. Course, there's OROCOS, too. jim
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
On Mon, 2005-01-24 at 17:36, Jim Thompson wrote: OK, first, what about this overall OSTG plan? It seems weird for an organization which is mostly about jornalism to have a strategy, no? You must be from the reality-based community! Second, does Oahu/Hawaii/Honolulu have a LUG? Consider, is anything on this page still accurate? http://www.sslug.dk/misc/ely.dkuug.dk/6-1-1-luau.html LUAU has not met for some years (was it '99?) and has only existed as a mailing list in the hands of various kind people. So this page is historically correct, but not of any current use. The Current LUG is HOSEF, although as a non-profit focussed on education, HOSEF does a lot more than many LUGs, and not quite as much of the normal user-orientated LUG things. -- James A. Stroble [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
Matt Darnell wrote: I guess we've all talked about everything there is to talk about at the conference. Is there going to be a TPOSSCON 2006? If so, I would suggest some sort of lessons learned meeting to get everyone's input on how to make it even better. is this the dreaded meeting to set the agenda so we can have another meeting? jim
Re: [LUAU] Is this thing on?
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jim Thompson wrote: is this the dreaded meeting to set the agenda so we can have another meeting? According to Dilbert, we also need the coffee mugs and the database. -- Karen Lofstrom
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
His failing. One would think he'd grok 'learning curve' by now... Just spent 4 days wiring my first machine tool control system. All relay logic. Now that it's done, it's a one day job ;-) -t Charles Lockhart wrote: Sorry, if I'm breeching protocol with crossover, please flame me privately. This article: http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20021202S0052 was causing a bit of anger and disgust on another list, and I could pretty much see why. This guy has 15 years of working experience with vxWorks, none with embedded Linux, or even with Linux in general as far as I could tell. His complaint was that embedded Linux is touted as being free, but it wasn't. But generally he and his team made a bunch of bad choices in terms of system design, and he was publicly penalizing embedded Linux
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
Jimen Ching wrote: snip My second comment concerns Linux and embedded systems. At my new job, I am now working with Linux on a single board computer (SBC). These SBC's have PII processors (1.2Ghz), 1Gig RAM, Gigabit Ethernet, etc. I hardly consider this an 'embedded' system. Though we use this SBC for a very specific purpose, I have a hard time convincing myself that I am working on an embedded environment. Of course, I have also worked on the Microchip PIC17X processors. This is an 8bit processor (10Mhz), with 906 bytes of RAM for data, 32K bytes of RAM for code. The only communications with it is via a serial port or a JTAG emulator. Comparing these two environments, its pretty clear which one is 'embedded'. Every time I hear someone talk about 'embedded Linux', I just have to give off a little chuckle. ;-) You actually can run linux on fairly small things (though a PIC is probably a bit too small). My ipaq for example runs linux, as does my phone (http//www.tuxscreen.net -- sorry, sold out). The phone especially feels rather embedded. 16MB of RAM is plenty, but 4MB of flash can get a bit tight when squeezing in a full linux system with X. The hardware is controlled and such. It certainly feels embedded. I can't say that I've done work with a microcontroller personally, but I've helped people work with them before. Assembly is your friend when you've got less than 1k of RAM and only 8k or so for code :) However, if you have lots of rom and ram, uClinux is always a possibility. It doesn't require an MMU and lets you use a lot of the stuff you'd expect from a UNIXish OS without the fuss of doing everything by hand. --jc --MonMotha pgpSmYNguVA1c.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
seen available on the net before. My thinking was that if he had 15 years worth of experience with Linux these things would have been just as easy. If he had 15 years experience with Linux, it would be named after *him*, not Linus!-) reDiculous Dave
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
Oh yeah, missed that point by a bit. Of course, as a programmer guy, he could be talking man years, yeah, that's what I meant, yeah, 15 man years, he puts in 80 hour weeks. Right. -Charles If he had 15 years experience with Linux, it would be named after *him*, not Linus!-) reDiculous Dave ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
Charles Lockhart wrote: Sorry, if I'm breeching protocol with crossover, please flame me privately. This article: http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20021202S0052 was causing a bit of anger and disgust on another list, and I could pretty much see why. This guy has 15 years of working experience with vxWorks, none with embedded Linux, or even with Linux in general as far as I could tell. His complaint was that embedded Linux is touted as being free, but it wasn't. But generally he and his team made a bunch of bad choices in terms of system design, and he was publicly penalizing embedded Linux for these. Example, he complained that while e-Linux is touted as being free, he had to pay a consulting group a lot of bucks to port the kernel to the uP that they'd selected. I think an obvious no-brainer would have been to choose a uP that's already supported rather than taking the risk of going off into the great unknown. This is a given. Porting the kernel to a new archetecture is NOT easy at all. It is a long-time goal of mine to port it to some hardware I may or may not make in the long-term :) as a learning experience. I certainly wouldn't want to put any money on it, nor would I have much faith in said brand-new port. Stick with the knowns: ARM, SH, MIPS, PPC, CRIS, etc. These ports are maintained by a large group of individuals (often including at least one corporate sponser) and are known to be in working order, and if they're not, you can probably find someone to help you with it. I've certatinly seen this with ARM. Other complaints that he made: They had to re-write some Linux drivers because again, they weren't supported for the uP they chose. Part of porting the kernel since with a monolithic kernel design, drivers are essentially part of the kernel. The consulting group ported the kernel for some reference design that was available for the uP, and so they then had to spend time(=money) cusomizing for their custom hardware design. Isn't this part of any embedded project? Rarely is a reference design used and there's always at least some drivers that need to be written. While I agree that in some ways Linux dev is a bit like trying to hit a moving target, the problem was amplified because they kept recieving kernel updates from their consultants, and they kept updating their kernel rather than freezing it, resulting in having to rewrite some of their driver code multiple times. Again, the no-brainer I think would have been to focus on a snapshot of what they needed, and only fold in kernel mods that would fix problems. Plus, in my mind I associated this as a problem with the consultants, not e-Linux. Creeping featurism is a dangerous thing. The author had to recompile gcc as a cross compiler for his uP, which he thought was a pain. Oh please, this has to be done with any archetecture, unless you want to compile natively (which is often slow and requires a native compiler...which as to be built using a cross compiler at some point!). I agree (having bootstrapped ARM toolchains myself) that it is a big pain, especially without an autobuild system, but it's just something that has to be done. Had he chosen a more common archetecture, a toolchain probably would have been available! The author had a harder time getting some things working using e-Linux than he did with vxWorks. But they were things like applications to convert the kernel + applications into a ROMable image, stuff that I've seen available on the net before. My thinking was that if he had 15 years worth of experience with Linux these things would have been just as easy. I build bootable jffs2 images many times daily...as a hobby. It's not too tough to make the filesystem up, then run mkfs.jffs2 on it (assuming you're using jffs2...which provides read/write access to flash, a feature many other embedded OSes lack). Anyway, I generally like reading about peoples experiences with embedded Linux and Linux as applied to science, so I apreciated the article, I just wish it would have been more objective, and not so much playing the blame game. One point he made was that they failed to make the date for demoing the product to their customers, and he pretty much intimated this was e-Linux's fault, which I thought was pretty bogus. I agree. See above, the guy made some bad choices that made his experience miserable. If you want to sail into the great unknown with a new uP, be ready to get bitten by some new sea-creatures. -Charles --MonMotha P.S. Be aware that this thread could very easily turn into a flame-fest. I've tried to keep from encouraging that, but if anyone interprets any of my comments as flamebait, please send them to me privately, or better yet, send them to /dev/null, just please don't allow a flamewar to develop on the list. pgpJxDwmh5Dpk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] another interesting thing I found on another list
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Charles Lockhart wrote: was causing a bit of anger and disgust on another list, and I could pretty much see why. This guy has 15 years of working experience with vxWorks, none with embedded Linux, or even with Linux in general as far as I could tell. I have two comments that might fan the flames, but its just my opinion. I noticed VxWorks people are a lot like Windows programmers. Everything is packaged so nice and tight for them, that they hardly have to think. This is good, I guess, if you're concerned about time to market and have limitless computer resources (i.e. memory, disk space, processing power, etc). But when you are talking about embedded systems, these are the very things that are limited. VxWorks has gotten to the point where it is the Windows of the embedded world. It is hardly surprising that a VxWorks programmer has hard time with anything different. My second comment concerns Linux and embedded systems. At my new job, I am now working with Linux on a single board computer (SBC). These SBC's have PII processors (1.2Ghz), 1Gig RAM, Gigabit Ethernet, etc. I hardly consider this an 'embedded' system. Though we use this SBC for a very specific purpose, I have a hard time convincing myself that I am working on an embedded environment. Of course, I have also worked on the Microchip PIC17X processors. This is an 8bit processor (10Mhz), with 906 bytes of RAM for data, 32K bytes of RAM for code. The only communications with it is via a serial port or a JTAG emulator. Comparing these two environments, its pretty clear which one is 'embedded'. Every time I hear someone talk about 'embedded Linux', I just have to give off a little chuckle. ;-) --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
