Re: rebuilt baroque lute on ebay
Hi, it is a guitar-lute, but that doesn't say anything on the age of the belly. In fact some guitar-lutes have been built by using old bodys. But from the pictures you won't be able to say anything exact. It could be or couldn't be ... Best Markus On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:42:21 -0700 (PDT), Steve Ramey wrote: SR Hi all, SR SR Looks a lot like a really nicely done guitar-lute. I have a number of them and the peg head and apparent almost black color of the ribs are the only 'unusual for guitar-lute' aspects. SR SR Best, SR Steve SR SR Mathias R÷sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SR http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=7331352015 SR SR whatever the neck and sound board may be, the belly once upon a time SR was SR of a baroque lute. SR SR How are you so certain, Mathias? Do you know this piece itself? SR SR no. to be sure, I don't get any royalties for this :) SR SR At first look, the whole appears to me to be consistent with quality SR lauten/guitar-lutes of the early Wandevogel era. SR SR well, by and large that may be so. The pegbox is a bit exceptional, SR perhaps (no bent pegboxes on wandervogel lutes, usually). SR SR However, if you take a closer look to the back of the belly you will SR notice a difference. The shape of the belly is more oblong, and the ribs SR resemble those e. g. of a Stegher lute much more, than those of SR wandervogel lutes. SR SR I don't know the intrument myself, but I was startled at the pictures. SR SR Best, SR SR Mathias SR -- SR SR To get on or off this list see list information at SR http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html SR SR -- SR
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Stability is good word. Somehow, too, it requires less effort. W/ a single fret you feel the string bend behind the fret and you want to touch bottom. I remember playing an orpharion w/ scalloped frets and it seems to take these ideas to the next level. Bending the string behind the fret would severely sharpen the metal strings as well as wear down the brass frets and that's the reasoning behind that, I suppose. Having the fret area more spread out over the string means less wear on a single point. This is good for both small diameter gut strings as well as the roped bass beasties. Only recently (March) in my fretting experiment did I switch to doubled frets for frets 5-8 and I immediately found it easier to get clean notes up there. Sean On Jun 19, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Peter Weiler wrote: I've thought about this for a good hour and I have to say it is a remarkably difficult thing to verbalize. I don't know what commercial pressures the big boys are subject to (and I don't think that's a good measure) but for the rest of us... you're right about a little less tendency to slide on the neck, but there is a certain stability or solidity to the feeling of the note being produced by fretting which is actually a bit more guitar-like. The speed with which a tone is articulated is different. There is a very precise and decisive feel to moderate-gauge double frets. I hope a few others who have better English than I will jump in here! - Peter Well I'm not proud ! So I will give them a try. Would it be safe to say that the second fret prevents the courses from sliding around so much? What is the advantage to these, and seriously, why don't performers use them thesedays. Has anyone talked to the guys at the top, like Odette, Wilson, Barto, Cardin etc. as to their rational behind not using them? Michael Thames -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Stage presence and formal manners.
In A Tale of Two Cities there is a French marquis with a cold and selfish heart. He is consequently a cruel man. This man has very good manners. In reading the book, it is a pleasure to listen to him talk, because his manners are so fine. He can say my friend to someone he hates, without sounding smarmy. So, zee question eees, which players of fretted instrumentals, historical or (preferably) living, might serve as models of good manners during performance? By good manners, I don't mean nice clothes, humility, or open-heartedness, however preferable these might be. I mean the type of manners which our marquis had: a sophisticated, semi-formalized, perhaps difficult good-breeding which would serve well at a diplomatic party. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: CD recordings
1. Which forthcoming CD would that be? 3. There are a number of Terzi CDs listed - most are vocal music with the lute accompaniment. I assume you are referring to the Paul Beier CD which is all lute. By the way we are selling that CD through the Lute Society of America, so if anyone wants one they are $15 + $2.50 S H. Contact me if you are interested. The 2nd link goes to a dead end on my computer. Which CD are you referring to on the 2nd link? Nancy Carlin 1) Anyone who have any news about Mr Marco Pesci's forthcoming CD? 2) Anyone who has planned a recording entirely devoted to Daniel Bacheler? 3) Anyone who knows anything about more forthcoming Terzi-recordings besides the two wonderful CD's which already exists? ( http://www.stradivarius.it and http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/) Looking forward to any answer. Have a good summer! /Peter Peter Oljelund www.oljelund.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobil 070-403 41 48 _ Hitta r=E4tt p=E5 n=E4tet med MSN Search http://search.msn.se/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
players' meeting in Bremen
Dear everyone, if you happen to be near Bremen on Saturday, June 25th, you may want to take a chance: From 10 a.m. on, lute players from all over North Germany will assemble for a players' meeting in Bremen, Grosze Krankenstrasze 11 (Bremen-Neustadt). There will be occasion for playing together, talks about related topics, showing, trying, and watching instruments. Hopefully, Ivo Magherini (luthier), Rainer Waldeck (teacher), and Albert Reyerman (TREE-edition) will be there. In the afternoon (4.30 p.m.) there will be occasion for participants to present results of the day in the nearby church St. Pauli (Am Neuen Markt). It has always been fun for everybody, so drop by! Cheers, Mathias Rösel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stage presence and formal manners.
his manners are so fine. He can say my friend to someone he hates, without sounding smarmy. Sounds suspiciously much like Nigel N ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! You've just doubled your projected profit! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Peter Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stage presence and formal manners.
If good manners includes the musical aspect, of performance, I would have to say... Performers should have the good taste, and intelligence, not to play 20th century computer generated elevator lute music, by composers, either still dead, or still living, or still both, from the greater NY city area. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Stage presence and formal manners. In A Tale of Two Cities there is a French marquis with a cold and selfish heart. He is consequently a cruel man. This man has very good manners. In reading the book, it is a pleasure to listen to him talk, because his manners are so fine. He can say my friend to someone he hates, without sounding smarmy. So, zee question eees, which players of fretted instrumentals, historical or (preferably) living, might serve as models of good manners during performance? By good manners, I don't mean nice clothes, humility, or open-heartedness, however preferable these might be. I mean the type of manners which our marquis had: a sophisticated, semi-formalized, perhaps difficult good-breeding which would serve well at a diplomatic party. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Dear Peter and All: Now this is interesting. I assume you put the slightly smaller fret on the nut side of the main fret. It makes me think of the frets on my Forrester citterns, which are brass and include a tiny wooden ramp on the nut side, which presumably keeps one from bending the note sharp when fretting a course. But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. It also means that if you break a fret in the middle of a performance all is not lost. Cheers, Jim Peter Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu om cc: Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets 06/21/2005 06:14 PM Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
JAS wrote: But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. Not really; as Sean (I think) pointed out, the up-neck fret tends to be the one that takes the brunt of the wear. After a week or three of use they seem to settle in with this morphology (slightly higher on the bridge side). The effect is very small, but I think it's not imaginary. I do have a lot of trouble getting double fret knots tight for anything greater than, say, 0.80 mm fretgut though. -Peter - Original Message - From: James A Stimson To: Peter Weiler Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:29:25 -0400 Dear Peter and All: Now this is interesting. I assume you put the slightly smaller fret on the nut side of the main fret. It makes me think of the frets on my Forrester citterns, which are brass and include a tiny wooden ramp on the nut side, which presumably keeps one from bending the note sharp when fretting a course. But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. It also means that if you break a fret in the middle of a performance all is not lost. Cheers, Jim Peter Weiler om cc: Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets 06/21/2005 06:14 PM Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm --
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
There are a few frets that would take a while to wear down because the are used so seldom (such as the 5th course 1st and 6th frets) that it might be better to take a gentle file to the nutside. Sean I just had the thought, that one could cut the piece of gut long enough for the double loop single fret, and calculate the length of the string that will go on the nut side and somehow pre thickness it down before you tie it on the fretborad. I don't know what the best tool would be to thickness down the gut. Maybe a real sharp scraper or single edge razor blade. Mimo might know. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets There are a few frets that would take a while to wear down because the are used so seldom (such as the 5th course 1st and 6th frets) that it might be better to take a gentle file to the nutside. Sean On Jun 21, 2005, at 4:39 PM, Peter Weiler wrote: JAS wrote: But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. Not really; as Sean (I think) pointed out, the up-neck fret tends to be the one that takes the brunt of the wear. After a week or three of use they seem to settle in with this morphology (slightly higher on the bridge side). The effect is very small, but I think it's not imaginary. I do have a lot of trouble getting double fret knots tight for anything greater than, say, 0.80 mm fretgut though. -Peter - Original Message - From: James A Stimson To: Peter Weiler Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:29:25 -0400 Dear Peter and All: Now this is interesting. I assume you put the slightly smaller fret on the nut side of the main fret. It makes me think of the frets on my Forrester citterns, which are brass and include a tiny wooden ramp on the nut side, which presumably keeps one from bending the note sharp when fretting a course. But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. It also means that if you break a fret in the middle of a performance all is not lost. Cheers, Jim Peter Weiler om cc: Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets 06/21/2005 06:14 PM Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey --
Re: memorization
Which Chaconne? G minor, or A major? ed At 06:41 PM 3/30/2005 -0700, Michael Thames wrote: If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a professional concert, will it? Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. RT Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a professional concert, will it? Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Interesting idea, Chad. I had always thought the energy of the string was transmitted to the body through the bridge but it makes sense that some energy must go to the stopping fret as well. There is the view that the lute should be held as loosely as possible and a lesson with Ronn MacFarlane showed that when the lute is minimally supported by, say, its lower edge, only slightly resting against the chest and the right arm barely touching, it creates a much larger, fuller sound --something that Jacob Heringmann and others strongly advocate, too. For the longest time I didn't understand where the extra volume was coming from (maybe the back vibrating more freely from the volume of air?). It was amazing how the sound opened up when I released my fore-arm grip on it! So maybe as the fret and string have better purchase, the neck will send that energy to the body? I'm tempted to think that one end would cancel out the other but on the other hand, the bridge would vibrate up and down (relative to the bridge) while the neck would forward and back (relative to the bridge). Pure speculation, mind you. And I appreciate the irony of learning about greater volume from a clavichordist ;^) Sean On Jun 21, 2005, at 7:06 PM, Chad McAnally wrote: Michael Thames wrote: If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. Now I know this is a lute list, not an early keyboard list, but I have come upon a direct parallel that may be of interest to lutenist and luthiers alike. The same phenomenon mentioned above by Michael was recently has been noted also on clavichords in an article by Martin Skowroneck in Clavichord Intenational ( Vol 9 #1 May 2005) ; Half the energy of the strings goes into the bridge and half into the tangents, equivalent to the frets of a clavichord. It appear the some of the old builders realized this and made their tangents progressively heavier toward the bass end of the instrument, or tried to concentrate more the weight of the key levers closer to the tangent end, both in an effort to make the key reflect more of the energy of the string. Also critical to this was making the tangent more stable in the key than the traditional hammering in of the tangent. Some makers used addition small wooden wedges to tighten the tangent into the key to accomplish this. So, I began to experiment with all this on an instrument I'm working on. The result was not only a slightly louder clavichord but the tone was totally different. Very much like Michael's description of the impact the double fretting has on Baroque lute tone, the sustain is increased, but not so much as to muddy the instrument and the overall tone colour was rounder, much closer to the antiques in good condition I've heard and played. So, I wonder if the stability of the frets via double fretting transfers more energy to the neck resulting in a better tone or like the clavichord tangent, the double frets help reflects the motion of the string better into the air? A new puzzle for builders! Chad -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
I just finished reading some Dalsa in Italian Tab. then tried to read some French tab. Man, my mind stopped working for a moment. So I checked my Email. Chad, Interesting you picked up on this as well. 20 or so years ago, I quit using Honduran Mahogany, for necks in exchange for a lighter wood called Spanish cedar ( cedro). H. Mahogany is the typical wood Hauser used, and the Spanish cedar is typical for Spanish guitars. H. Mahogany is heavier, and gave the guitars more sustain, especially in the bass, but less warmth and volume. S. Cedar gave the guitars more warmth, and openness in the treble, more volume, but less sustain, and less clarity in the bass. I've always told guitarist's that the neck can make or break an instrument. Also, if you make a thin neck you get more warmth, ( up to a point) and the opposite for a thicker neck. I also will inlay a piece of hardwood inside the neck not to reinforce it, but to kill the natural frequency in the neck, so it won't color the tone. Chad as you mentioned adding heaver tangents, for the bass, this makes perfect sense, as the bass needs damping which is mass. This same principle can be seen on lute bridges. On the bass side of the bridge, it is higher, and wider adding mass, but on the treble side it is lower, and more narrow creating lightness, as well as stiffness. Anyway, in the next few days I'm making a neck for a baroque lute, and can't decide on going with linden (light ) or Spanish cedar ( a little heaver) for the core. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael Thames wrote: If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. Now I know this is a lute list, not an early keyboard list, but I have come upon a direct parallel that may be of interest to lutenist and luthiers alike. The same phenomenon mentioned above by Michael was recently has been noted also on clavichords in an article by Martin Skowroneck in Clavichord Intenational ( Vol 9 #1 May 2005) ; Half the energy of the strings goes into the bridge and half into the tangents, equivalent to the frets of a clavichord. It appear the some of the old builders realized this and made their tangents progressively heavier toward the bass end of the instrument, or tried to concentrate more the weight of the key levers closer to the tangent end, both in an effort to make the key reflect more of the energy of the string. Also critical to this was making the tangent more stable in the key than the traditional hammering in of the tangent. Some makers used addition small wooden wedges to tighten the tangent into the key to accomplish this. So, I began to experiment with all this on an instrument I'm working on. The result was not only a slightly louder clavichord but the tone was totally different. Very much like Michael's description of the impact the double fretting has on Baroque lute tone, the sustain is increased, but not so much as to muddy the instrument and the overall tone colour was rounder, much closer to the antiques in good condition I've heard and played. So, I wonder if the stability of the frets via double fretting transfers more energy to the neck resulting in a better tone or like the clavichord tangent, the double frets help reflects the motion of the string better into the air? A new puzzle for builders! Chad -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
