[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Archlute Bridge
Hello Sterling!! Its been a long time posting for me, I have been pretty busy with work... I offer what I have done in the past. Many of the EXCELLENT builders who post here will no doubt have wonderful input to give you , no doubt.. For my part, having replaced a number of bridges in restoration work as well as gluing on bridges in new construction, I would say It is much better to remove the top. MUCH BETTER in fact Your description is good by the way, and certainly justifies replacing the bridge. Also since the current bridge is not to be kept, you do have a great advantage here. However there are issues . Removing a well glued on bridge is no easy task. Heat and moisture are required and the application of these forces can easily damage a top beyond repair... After you remove the top from the bowl , you must focus the heat and moisture very carefully, and take extreme caution not to be impatient and lift up the bridge with any force as this could create tear outs in the top underneath. This situation is a nightmare to deal with , but CAN be addressed if the damage is shallow. Given that you are going to make a new bridge, I suggest that you begin by removing whatever top detail has been placed on the top of the old bridge ( if any) and then to CAREFULLY plane down the old bridge with a block plane to where the remaining bridge is perhaps 1.5 mills thick or less if you can ... Now you can place hot water on a rag cut to fit EXACTLY on top of the remaining bridge with a LITTLE overlap and then cover the cloth with tin foil or saran wrap to prevent the water from evaporating. Please leave this in place for a while . As thin as the remainder of the bridge now is, the water and heat should penetrate fairly well into the top and glue joint underneath, and begin to loosen the bond. Now under one of the ears see if you can't slip a single edged razor blade between the bottom of the bridge and the top... You must not force this if there is any resistance you should stop immediately! You will need to apply more heat and moisture using hot water and a SMALL iron directly on the top of the remainder of the bridge on the area where you wish to start, and try again... I stress that it is important to be careful to control how much heat and moisture is absorbed in the top and most importantly to keep this in area as close to the perimeter of the bridge as possible.. If you have removed the top, of course you can apply moisture and heat from UNDERNEATH the top just below bridge, and be very effective as the top itself is more porous than the ebony. Carefully move the razor blade along the joint until the bridge remainder lifts up completely along its length At this point I recommend damping the top at least around the area where there has been heat with cold water and prefer myself , to damp the entire top - top and bottom to equalize the tensions so as to to help avoid selective shrinking of the top and the ensuing warps that will incur as a result. If you do damp the entire top , AVOID the ROSE TOP AND BOTTOM Just after the top has been damped, I then place the top (topside down ) in a go bar box ( you must use some cellotape on the go bar box bottom where the bridge area is going to be , so that the remaining glue in the bridge area of the top doesn't bond it to the box) and then using cellotaped bars of your manufacture (say 1/2 x 1 x 12 inches or so) go bar clamp these bars down across where the bridge was located to ensure that the top is flat in this critical area. Also brace the existing lateral braces of the top by placing go bars in the center of each of these lateral braces and at each end , and put go bars on the J bar as well as the treble bars I recommend leaving it like this for several days until the top has stabilized, is flat, and all moisture you have put into the top is gone. Now comes an interesting thing.. The new bridge should actually be glued on with the top with the same humidity as when all the braces were glued down in the first place. This is to prevent stresses from being introduced into the top which will will deaden the sound. Since we have most likely no record of what this humidity figure was , we now have a bit of a mystery !~!!! In one lute I worked on and which needed a complete bridge re gluing - the bridge was lifting up under the ears and also under the first course but was otherwise perfect, my client wanted to reuse the original bridge. This instrument by the way was made by a well known and well respected American luthier. As such, I faced this problem of not knowing the relative humidity used during the gluing of the braces I discovered that keeping the top in a go bar box at 44 percent humidity to start with, the top developed a bow with the center of the top depressed relative to the edges, and this within less than 20 minutes from removing the
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Archlute Bridge
Richard--thanks very much---this is just the sort of info I was looking for. Taking a lute apart sort of scares me--the fear is I will just ruin it. This lute has other issues--it came from England to very dry Utah 18 years ago and the soundboard developed a split at the seam soon after it got here. Now the split goes almost the whole top but it has not hurt playability. Perhaps I should just make a new soundboard I will keep you all posted on what I do. --Sterling From: Richard Lees rel...@sbcglobal.net To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:03 AM Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Archlute Bridge Hello Sterling!! Its been a long time posting for me, I have been pretty busy with work... I offer what I have done in the past. Many of the EXCELLENT builders who post here will no doubt have wonderful input to give you , no doubt.. For my part, having replaced a number of bridges in restoration work as well as gluing on bridges in new construction, I would say It is much better to remove the top. MUCH BETTER in fact Your description is good by the way, and certainly justifies replacing the bridge. Also since the current bridge is not to be kept, you do have a great advantage here. However there are issues . Removing a well glued on bridge is no easy task. Heat and moisture are required and the application of these forces can easily damage a top beyond repair... After you remove the top from the bowl , you must focus the heat and moisture very carefully, and take extreme caution not to be impatient and lift up the bridge with any force as this could create tear outs in the top underneath. This situation is a nightmare to deal with , but CAN be addressed if the damage is shallow. Given that you are going to make a new bridge, I suggest that you begin by removing whatever top detail has been placed on the top of the old bridge ( if any) and then to CAREFULLY plane down the old bridge with a block plane to where the remaining bridge is perhaps 1.5 mills thick or less if you can ... Now you can place hot water on a rag cut to fit EXACTLY on top of the remaining bridge with a LITTLE overlap and then cover the cloth with tin foil or saran wrap to prevent the water from evaporating. Please leave this in place for a while . As thin as the remainder of the bridge now is, the water and heat should penetrate fairly well into the top and glue joint underneath, and begin to loosen the bond. Now under one of the ears see if you can't slip a single edged razor blade between the bottom of the bridge and the top... You must not force this if there is any resistance you should stop immediately! You will need to apply more heat and moisture using hot water and a SMALL iron directly on the top of the remainder of the bridge on the area where you wish to start, and try again... I stress that it is important to be careful to control how much heat and moisture is absorbed in the top and most importantly to keep this in area as close to the perimeter of the bridge as possible.. If you have removed the top, of course you can apply moisture and heat from UNDERNEATH the top just below bridge, and be very effective as the top itself is more porous than the ebony. Carefully move the razor blade along the joint until the bridge remainder lifts up completely along its length At this point I recommend damping the top at least around the area where there has been heat with cold water and prefer myself , to damp the entire top - top and bottom to equalize the tensions so as to to help avoid selective shrinking of the top and the ensuing warps that will incur as a result. If you do damp the entire top , AVOID the ROSE TOP AND BOTTOM Just after the top has been damped, I then place the top (topside down ) in a go bar box ( you must use some cellotape on the go bar box bottom where the bridge area is going to be , so that the remaining glue in the bridge area of the top doesn't bond it to the box) and then using cellotaped bars of your manufacture (say 1/2 x 1 x 12 inches or so) go bar clamp these bars down across where the bridge was located to ensure that the top is flat in this critical area. Also brace the existing lateral braces of the top by placing go bars in the center of each of these lateral braces and at each end , and put go bars on the J bar as well as the treble bars I recommend leaving it like this for several days until the top has stabilized, is flat, and all moisture you have put into the top is gone. Now comes an interesting thing.. The new bridge should actually be glued on with the top with the same humidity as when all the braces were
[LUTE] Re: Philip or Arthurs Dump
Hi Nancy and Alain, My personal theory is that in an age without copy machines, they must have done a lot of hand copying. I've certainly lost my place copying. It is easy to do and easy to imagine someone burning the midnight oil just spacing out on it. Even a quick play through doesn't sound bad so they could have thought done. I find it hard to believe it wasn't an error because the two bars don't come at a musically significant place. Like I said, if it were me, I might have put two bars of G together to build tension right before the recap, but I reckon that is a totally modern way of thinking and they wouldn't have done it. I guess there are no other versions of the piece than those two in Marsh. Are there any significant differences in the incomplete version? I suppose the duet offered by The Lute Society must be an arrangement. On Jun 12, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: There's another example of a break in the pattern in Marsh. The Bergamask on pp 423-424 - you can see it on my web site at [1]http://groundsanddivisions.info/Marsh-Bergamask.pdf The change is about 2/3 of the way down the first page and it fits so well I think it was intended. I don't know about 2/3 down, but a third of the way down, at the end of the 3rd line, half a measure is missing that I find really disturbing. And at the beginning of m. 25 I find the C harmony instead of F doesn't tickle me nicely. At m. 29 the F harmony is missing again, but it kind of puts things back on track with the proper harmonies falling at the beginnings of bars until the end. You weren't thinking of measure 54, were you? Because although there is a C in the bass, the harmony is F. I've never heard a Bergamasca I like better than the famous one by Gianoncelli. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0w6wZ3d7i4 That said, there are some other pieces in Marsh that have enough mistakes that they need quite a bit of improvement. One of them is the Long Dump page 280. Nancy I checked the facsimile of the Marsh lute book and the break in the pattern is definitely there -- I tend to agree with the Maybe it is not a mistake theory. It could be an intentional echo effect - the melodic pattern of the second half of the bar is repeated a fourth up in the first half of the following bar. It might be intended to wake up the audience in a fairly long and repetitive piece and as you indicate prepare them for the final recap of the theme. Maybe Philip Glass could help here? It is worth noting that the piece appears twice in the book, the first time left obviously unfinished with a page and a half left blank immediately following, i.e. enough space to finish the transcription later. The scribe however finally recopied the piece at the very end of the book from the beginning all over again. There are no scratches or corrections of any kind in the second version. Another interesting aspect of this piece: it is not doleful. Alain On 6/9/2012 1:04 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: I got a modern printout recently of Philip or Arthur's Dump - from Marsh, I believe. About 16 m. before the end there appears to be a missing measure or three. That is, the alternating C-G pattern breaks and there are two measures based on G. I also saw mention on the lute society site catalog of a duet version. Is this the same version as Marsh? I thought I had Marsh, but I don't, I think I mixed it up with Mynshall. I wonder if the 'missing' measure was a mistake and is in Marsh or a concordance, or perhaps someone famous has reconstructed it. Maybe it is not a mistake? Magnus Andersson certainly plays it convincingly: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVuhbBhYCl0 If I were the composer, I would have put that two bars of G bit right before the 'recap', where he brings back the opening theme at the end. TIA To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web sites - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com [5]www.groundsanddivisions.info Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths Morrongiello Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [6]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://groundsanddivisions.info/Marsh-Bergamask.pdf 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVuhbBhYCl0 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 5. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 6. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/ --
[LUTE] HIP Shakespeare
Interesting video on how Shakespeare might have been pronounced circa 1600. It would be interesting to see a similar approach to English lute songs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s Guy -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SECTIO AUREA
Thank you for listening, Best regards from Romania, CAIUS HERA --- On Tue, 6/12/12, Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com wrote: From: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: SECTIO AUREA To: hera caius caiush2...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 2:51 PM Lovely music and performances, Caius. Thank you for posting. Ned On Jun 12, 2012, at 2:45 AM, hera caius wrote: For the first time I started to use the soundcloud which is a great thing so as my first experience with it I have uploaded some excerpts from the recital: SECTIO AUREA held in Bucharest/Romania in February 2012 in one of the most concert halls from our country. This is a live recording made by the Romanian National Radio. This recital presents Italian music from the beginning of the XVI century until the beginning of the XVII century. Judit Andrejszki from Budapest is the singer, virginal player and percussionist; Caius Hera (me) is playing vihuela, renaissance lute and baroque guitar. If you have time and patience or interest for this repertoire please listen this compilation of fragments from our concert. [1][1]http://soundcloud.com/kyuslauten/sectio-aurea -- References 1. [2]http://soundcloud.com/kyuslauten/sectio-aurea To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://soundcloud.com/kyuslauten/sectio-aurea 2. http://soundcloud.com/kyuslauten/sectio-aurea 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP Shakespeare
The Hilliard Ensemble made an album in the late 70s, I think, of various songs, including lute songs with original pronounciation - probably at the more extreme end of possibilities. To my ear, Dowland's Now oh now I needs must part sounded like Nay oh nay oi needs moost pairt - a bit disconcerting but very interesting. Bill __ From: Guy Smith guy_m_sm...@comcast.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 16:19 Subject: [LUTE] HIP Shakespeare Interesting video on how Shakespeare might have been pronounced circa 1600. It would be interesting to see a similar approach to English lute songs. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s Guy -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Archlute Bridge
I'll start the ball rolling - The critical thing is what kind of glue was used to attach it to the soundboard. If it's synthetic, there's no easy way to get it off. If hide glue was used, alcohol can dissolve it, though you need to be careful because it can also ruin the finish of the instrument - particularly if it is French polished. For what it's worth, I'd do my best to preserve the original soundboard. I believe that older wood is generally better than what we can get nowadays. It IS possible to take off a soundboard, perform repairs, and put it back carefully without making too much of a mess of things. Any signs of repair are, I believe, honourable features of a mature lute. At least that's how the old ones liked them. Bill __ From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 5:27 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Archlute Bridge Hi-I'm not sure if this list is still active so here goes---I have a small archlute with a bridge that is made of ebony and I would like to replace it with something more appropriate. Also because the string spacing and action is all wrong. My question is--what is involved in removing a bridge and replacing it without removing the soundboard? I just need some advice on how to proceed, or if I should leave it alone. --Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polska 41
What is that title meaning, Romcio? JŻ --- On 2012-06-14, at 06:17, Roman Turovsky wrote: Trond Bengtson Polska - http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.mp3 http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.pdf Enjoy. Amitiès, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Archlute Bridge
I'll add my two cents, though Richard provided a wealth of ideas. Planing down the existing bridge is an excellent tactic! I find aliphatic glues (white or yellow) actually easier to remove than hide glue. They often come loose without the addition of water. I put a several layers of aluminum foil over the top around the bridge for insulation when heating it. I use a regular household iron for that. It's possible to glue on the replacement bridge using hot hide glue and a rubbed joint. I believe many Spanish guitar makes have used this method. It takes advantage of the glues' tendency to contract and pull things together as dries. Basically one slides the two parts back and forth a couple of times while the glue is hot, creating a suction not unlike what happens if you rub two microscope slides together. The repairperson then holds it firmly in place until the glue has gelled. It takes a couple of minutes. If the seam is open it might be just as well to patch it with a spline of spruce while the bridge and strings are off. It's not likely to ever close by itself in the dry atmosphere of Utah! Richard's observations on humidity control are excellent. Fixing the open seam would seem prudent if you decide to separate the top from the bowl to apply clamps to the new bridge. There should be enough flex in the top that total separation from the bowl isn't strictly necessary. Freeing it up to the level of the third bar should leave an opening wide enough to get some lightweight deep throat clamps in there. The main thing is to map out the geometry before starting. What angle does the neck take relative to the face under string tension? Is there an appreciable bulging behind the bridge that disappears when the strings are slackened? Pay close attention to the height of the string holes over the soundboard while it is strung to pitch and use them as a guide for calculation. -Ted - Original Message - From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:27 AM Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Archlute Bridge Hi-I'm not sure if this list is still active so here goes---I have a small archlute with a bridge that is made of ebony and I would like to replace it with something more appropriate. Also because the string spacing and action is all wrong. My question is--what is involved in removing a bridge and replacing it without removing the soundboard? I just need some advice on how to proceed, or if I should leave it alone. --Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute-Friendly Stereos
Dear Luters, I am in the process of looking for a new stereo system. Might any of you on the list have any suggestions in this regard? I am looking for a proper component system, probably at around the 500 Euro mark. For this modest budget, are there any stereos/brands that you feel work particularly well for the lute, or for early music in general? Also, are there good stereos that can be linked to computers for editing work, etc.? Your thoughts would be much appreciated! I am a child in these matters, having had nothing but -L-30 Argos stereos throughout my salad days As ever, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute-Friendly Stereos
Well, my Arcam Alpha 9 plays everything - and I mean everything - at 415 and in 6th-comma meantone. Not so good for French baroque... Rob On 15 June 2012 17:43, BENJAMIN NARVEY [1]luthi...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Luters, I am in the process of looking for a new stereo system. Might any of you on the list have any suggestions in this regard? I am looking for a proper component system, probably at around the 500 Euro mark. For this modest budget, are there any stereos/brands that you feel work particularly well for the lute, or for early music in general? Also, are there good stereos that can be linked to computers for editing work, etc.? Your thoughts would be much appreciated! I am a child in these matters, having had nothing but -L-30 Argos stereos throughout my salad days As ever, Benjamin -- [1][2]www.luthiste.com t [3]+33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m [4]+33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. [5]http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:luthi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.luthiste.com/ 3. tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2044%2027%2003%2044 4. tel:%2B33%20%280%29%206%2071%2079%2098%2098 5. http://www.luthiste.com/ 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] An old Capirola edition?
Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Arto- I don't know where that version comes from. Throw it away and play the original- it's much better. In the original, it's the 3rd course that's split, not the 4th (wouldn't work very well, 8ve string). Splitting the 3rd course is 90% of the FUN part of this piece! It's set up to be very easy to play, and the effect is fantastic. I guarantee you'll love it when you try it. The other missing bits are also fun- but apparently it wasn't enough fun for Capirola or Vitale to finish it, but that's no problem either. Capirola does the split 3rd in one other piece, and I believe at least one Spanish vihuela composer does this. And your playing is very nice- excellent tone, expression, and I see you getting into the rhythm. Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Dear Arto, I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. I have always found the split third course section in the full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this notation. The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP Shakespeare
Yes, the Hilliard Ensemble did quite a bit of this, and for the most part I think it was very successful. Some rhymes work (things like move and love), and some of our awkwardness with musical setting of words (three syllables for endings like tion or cion, for instance) disappears. There is also the colour - words like darkness seem to gain in effect by having a hard A and a post-vocalic R and become more expressive. For the singer of lute songs, this creates a dilemma. To sing in an accent which is not your own is (though beloved of 20th/21st C British pop musicians) rather strange, and perhaps not conducive to being taken seriously. The problem arises in singing repertoire which is not your own - an Englishman singing a Scottish song cannot use his own pronunciation, because some of the words simply don't exist in his native language, but if he attempts a Scottish pronunciation, is he not (a) at risk of getting it wrong and (b) being open to accusations of not being serious? The flip side of that coin is that if, as an Englishman, you sing a French song, surely your goal would be to pronounce the French words as accurately as possible, so that a listener would not know the native language of the singer? Having said that, what is the correct accent for a French song? The same applies to German lieder, of course (delicately opens large can of worms). In the end, perhaps it's all a matter of comprehensibility, and even more important, the rapport established between the singer and the audience. The late Robert Spencer, who coached lute song brilliantly, was firmly on the side of selling the song and communicating its message, and was therefore somewhat distrustful of OP, both because it might lessen comprehension and also because it might distract the audience (e.g. they're so busy noticing the funny pronunciation of a word they miss the overall meaning of the phrase). I have a lot of sympathy with this view, but also a lot of sympathy with the benefits of OP in terms of making rhymes and puns work properly. Perhaps we could come to accept that old songs are sung in a different accent from modern ones, in the same way that we accept that a singer who is not Scottish might adopt the necessary accent for singing a particular song. No easy answers, I'm afraid. Martin On 15/06/2012 16:50, William Samson wrote: The Hilliard Ensemble made an album in the late 70s, I think, of various songs, including lute songs with original pronounciation - probably at the more extreme end of possibilities. To my ear, Dowland's Now oh now I needs must part sounded like Nay oh nay oi needs moost pairt - a bit disconcerting but very interesting. Bill __ From: Guy Smithguy_m_sm...@comcast.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012, 16:19 Subject: [LUTE] HIP Shakespeare Interesting video on how Shakespeare might have been pronounced circa 1600. It would be interesting to see a similar approach to English lute songs. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s Guy -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Understanding now that this is a version for beginners, I apologize for telling Arto to throw away anything pedagogical from Anthony Rooley's hand. But Arto is ready to move beyond the beginner's version! Dan Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Arto, I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. I have always found the split third course section in the full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this notation. The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
I wonder if Anthony Rooley's modern edition is not taken from the The duke of Sommersettes dompe found in an English MS -- for more detail and the intabulation see Matthew Spring's History of the lute in Britain: http://books.google.com/books?id=OQPLgjs2n7IClpg=PA71ots=C414PQG6YFdq=osborn%20lute%20bookpg=PA82 Alain On 6/15/2012 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Dear Dan, I agree with you! It's always best to play the real thing... Although I have to say that I have always admired Tony Rooley for his understanding of renaissance culture and musicianship. In the case of the padoana, he rightly recognised that it has the sort of 'cut paste' structure to it that allows subtraction (and potentially addition!) of sections without destroying the character of the piece. This seems to have been part of the way in which 16c lutenists worked. We should perhaps do more of it ourselves today... Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld Sent: 15 June 2012 22:28 To: Denys Stephens Cc: 'lute net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition? Understanding now that this is a version for beginners, I apologize for telling Arto to throw away anything pedagogical from Anthony Rooley's hand. But Arto is ready to move beyond the beginner's version! Dan Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Arto, I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. I have always found the split third course section in the full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this notation. The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? Dear lutenists I played an old version of a Padoana Veneziana, old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute Veneziana seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being Veneziana? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxMfeature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute-Friendly Stereos
Hi, Benjamin. You wrote: I am in the process of looking for a new stereo system. Might any of you on the list have any suggestions in this regard? I am looking for a proper component system, probably at around the 500 Euro mark. I am very impressed with the King-Rex components www.kingrex.com I have no idea of their pricing in Euro but I suspect that they are in your price range. I have a pre-amp and one of their class-T amps. They are warm and accurate, reminiscent of a much more expensive valve amps. Well work checking out. Regards, -- mark. (+61.416.808.725/+1.250.483.5477) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
