[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lute Dmth" Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > > Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is > all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading > comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" > > > In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, > especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. > > MH > > >>> From: howard posner >>> To: Lutelist >>> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall >> wrote: >>> I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few >> documents concerning De Visee's life". How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents >> and what is idle fantasy? >>> >>> >>> I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it >> away. >>> -- >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
What I find interesting in all this (Satoh’s exercise) is why De Visée needs to be foreign. Is this to align him with Lully (the Italian)? In the light of the long tradition of lute playing in France, making De Visée foreign does not seem to elevate his status. In fact, historical writers in some circles belittled non-Parisian musicians. Or could this simply be the modern view of foreign is better? Shaun On 2 Mar 2014, at 10:05 pm, Greet Schamp wrote: > Dear all, > > I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of > Liège in Belgium? > The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. > According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history > > It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) > > All the best > Greet > > > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens > Monica Hall > Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 > Aan: Martyn Hodgson > CC: Lutelist > Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee > > Thank you very much for that Martyn. > > I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three > whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to > p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the > information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is > inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and > that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 > year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. > > When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence > that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not > get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this > information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where > Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that > De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he > himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless > speculation masquerading as musicology, > > I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and > admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it > needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of > the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't > indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day > he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken > which would have been much more interesting. > > As ever > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Martyn Hodgson" > To: "Lute Dmth" > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> >> >> Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is >> all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading >> comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" >> >> >> In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, >> especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. >> >> MH >> >> From: howard posner To: Lutelist Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall >>> wrote: > I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is > "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few >>> documents concerning De Visee's life". > > How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few > documents >>> and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it >>> away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> > > > >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Well that is possible I suppose. It may even account for the fact that Castillion - who hied from Liege - copied the whole of De Visee's 1682 into his earlier manuscript now in the Liege Conservatoire. But that is just my imagination and conjecture and not based on any surviving documents The truth is that at present we simply don't know where he came from and we ought accept that until some real evidence comes to light. Perhaps you should start checking church records to see if he was baptised in Vize. Cheers Monica. - Original Message - From: "Greet Schamp" To: "'Monica Hall'" ; "'Martyn Hodgson'" Cc: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] De Visee Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lute Dmth" Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner To: Lutelist Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life". How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Well - Portugal is next door to Spain and shares its "exotic" reputation and supposed affinity to the guitar. But De Visee was primarily a lutenist and as you say there was long tradition of playing the lute in France. It is much more likely that he was - well French - and learnt the lute from Gaultier, Pinel or whoever was in the ascendency in his youth. Monica - Original Message - From: "Shaun Ng" To: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 11:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee What I find interesting in all this (Satoh’s exercise) is why De Visée needs to be foreign. Is this to align him with Lully (the Italian)? In the light of the long tradition of lute playing in France, making De Visée foreign does not seem to elevate his status. In fact, historical writers in some circles belittled non-Parisian musicians. Or could this simply be the modern view of foreign is better? Shaun On 2 Mar 2014, at 10:05 pm, Greet Schamp wrote: Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lute Dmth" Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner To: Lutelist Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life". How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Hi Ed I do whatever is needed and possible. This weekend I had rehearsals with a viol and a cembalo. I brought a 10-course in g and theorbo in a. Yesterday the cembalo was in Valotti, of which I am no fan and we ran into some problems (combined Renaissance & Baroque programme, flats as well as sharps in the continuo, and we each have to play two solo pieces for which we have to be happily in tune with ourselves as well). I asked for 1/6 comma meantone (aka Silbermann) and we agreed we'd give that a try today. It was a lot better. Pitch is never a problem, 415 it was this time, but if 440 (or 392, or 465, or whaetever in between), then I bring another lute (I have the luxury) but just crank up the theorbo (I don't have the luxury). As for tuning in between, of course, when needed. All those guts versus all those steel strings, whatever the temperature/humidiy changes in a concert situation, something has to give so someone will have to tune. I'm quicker in between pieces. The cembalo might retune in the break if it's too bad. It's all part of the game, but sometimes just playing guitar is easier. ;-) David > What do you do about temperaments? Do you play in equal for Baroque music? Do you discuss it ahead of time with the other continuo players? I've read that this is why lute and harpsichords didn't play together in the Renaissance. (I didn't say that, I read it) Do you decide on a base pitch? Presumably, the harpsichordist cannot change temperament without tuning. It might be possible to move some frets somewhat during an opera or long performance, but I guess retuning the long ones must wait until intermission. I'm curious as to what you do. > > On Feb 27, 2014, at 11:27 PM, David van Ooijen <[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > When I play (arch)lute or theorbo with harpsichord I'd like to think we > help eachother: the lute will make the sound of the harpsichord more > mellow whilst the harpsichord will give volume to the sound of the > lute. But one has to take care not to constantly double eachother. With > organ, the lute gives attack while the organ gives sustain. That's an > easier combination. > > > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch > [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow > [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow 4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of days in the then famous "Maison Houbart" in 1672 and 1675, during the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. Real facts but the rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! Have a nice sunday, Jean-Marie -- >Dear all, > >I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of >Liège in Belgium? >The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. >According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history > >It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) > >All the best >Greet > > >-Oorspronkelijk bericht- >Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens >Monica Hall >Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 >Aan: Martyn Hodgson >CC: Lutelist >Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee > >Thank you very much for that Martyn. > >I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three >whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to >p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the >information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is >inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that >when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year >old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. > >When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence >that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not >get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this >information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where >Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that >De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he >himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless >speculation masquerading as musicology, > >I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire >his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be >said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most >prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in >idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said >nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would >have been much more interesting. > >As ever >Monica > > >- Original Message - >From: "Martyn Hodgson" >To: "Lute Dmth" >Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > >> >> >> Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is >> all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading >> comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" >> >> >> In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, >> especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. >> >> MH >> >> From: howard posner To: Lutelist Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall >>> wrote: > I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is > "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few >>> documents concerning De Visee's life". > > How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few > documents >>> and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it >>> away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> > > > >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
The trail is getting hotter Enjoy your day of rest Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Greet Schamp" ; "Monica Hall" ; "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "'Lute List'" Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of days in the then famous "Maison Houbart" in 1672 and 1675, during the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. Real facts but the rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! Have a nice sunday, Jean-Marie -- Dear all, I wonder if his name has something to do with the city of Visé, north east of Liège in Belgium? The dutch name is WEZET but in the Walloon language it is called Vizé. According to wikipedia in french, it has a long history It would add another lute/baroque guitar composer to our country ;>)) All the best Greet -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: zaterdag 1 maart 2014 12:39 Aan: Martyn Hodgson CC: Lutelist Onderwerp: [LUTE] De Visee Thank you very much for that Martyn. I don't know how many people have actually read these liner notes. Three whole pages are taken up with this "biography" - it is not until you turn to p.4 that you discover - Oh by the way - none of this is true. Some of the information is factually accurate. Some of it is not - which I think is inexcusable - Satoh is apparently unaware that Louis XIV died in 1715 and that when De Visee was appointed guitar teacher to the King it was to the 9 year old Louis XV. Some of it is obviously bollocks. When I first read these I queried on this list whether there was any evidence that De Visee was born in Portugal - not after all impossible - but did not get a satisfactory answer. I did my best to trace the source of this information - which had found its way into Wikipedia - perhaps that is where Satoh got the idea from. It seems that somebody some time ago suggested that De Visee's name implied that his family (rather than he himself) was Portuguese in origin. And so it goes. Endless pointless speculation masquerading as musicology, I can understand why David and and others who know Satoh personally and admire his playing might want to try and defend him. But I think that it needs to be said that people in his position - after all he taught at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the world until recently - shouldn't indulge in idle fantasy which may mislead the unwary. At the end of the day he has said nothing about the music or the manuscript from which it is taken which would have been much more interesting. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lute Dmth" Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 8:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Perhaps you missed what Monica Hall wrote after quoting Satoh: “This is all my imagination and conjecture"? She added Satoh's more misleading comment "based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life" In short, Satoh misleads by suggesting that his spurious conjectures, especially on birth place, are somehow based on historical sources. MH From: howard posner To: Lutelist Sent: Friday, 28 February 2014, 23:32 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I think you are being disingenious. What Satoh actually says is "This is all my imagination and conjecture, based on the few documents concerning De Visee's life". How is the reader supposed to know what is based on these few documents and what is idle fantasy? I think “This is all my imagination and conjecture” pretty much gives it away. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been years since I looked into the matter, but I find this in my notes. Perhaps someone can remind me of the Benoit citation. It identifies de la Salle as Spanish: >From 1650 Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, a native of Saint-Luc, was the King's >teacher of the guitar. He was replaced by his son Louis Anne in 1695. "1681. Juillet. Naturalité pour Bernard Jourdan dit la Salle, natif de St. Luc en Espagne, faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romanine." Benoit, p.79. Just who was this Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, and where was Saint-Luc? Why is there no surviving music by him? Peter Danner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:06:29 +0100, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote > Maybe Visée first met Louis XIV who stayed in Vizé for a couple of > days in the then famous "Maison Houbart" in 1672 and 1675, during > the Franco-Dutch War... He was with the musketeer d'Artagnan who got > killed in 1673 during the siege of Maastricht. .. being killed just a few feet away from a certain Captian Churchill (which later became the Duke of Malborough) - what a small world ;-) > Real facts but Yes, indeed. D'Artagnan's biography was first published between 1700 and 1701 as "The Memoirs of M. d'Artagnan, Captain-Lieutnant in the First Company of the King's Musketeers", Cologne/Amsterdam, by Gatien de Courtliz de Sandras [1]. > the > rest is pure conjecture and my imagination, of course... ;-) ! As always ;-) > Have a nice sunday, Same to you RalfD [1] Richard Cohen, "By the Sword, A History of Gladiators, Musketeers ..", Random House, 2002. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
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[LUTE] Re: De Visee
I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book "The guitar and its music" (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit. Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' "Maitre de guittarre" at least since 1650 and he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620. Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV had died and Louis XV had succeeded him. Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz. This is a small town on the coast. The reference which Jim gives is Benoit "Dictionnairede la musique en France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe" 1992 p. 728 I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I wonder if "Maitre de guitarre" doesn't necessarily mean that he actually taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his leisure hours. He may not have been a composer but a lot of stuff in manuscript is anonymous and it may have been difficult to get guitar music printed in France before engraving rather than printing from musical type became common. Best Monica - Original Message - From: "Peter Danner" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been years since I looked into the matter, but I find this in my notes. Perhaps someone can remind me of the Benoit citation. It identifies de la Salle as Spanish: From 1650 Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, a native of Saint-Luc, was the King's teacher of the guitar. He was replaced by his son Louis Anne in 1695. "1681. Juillet. Naturalité pour Bernard Jourdan dit la Salle, natif de St. Luc en Espagne, faisant profession de la Religion catholique, apostolique et romanine." Benoit, p.79. Just who was this Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, and where was Saint-Luc? Why is there no surviving music by him? Peter Danner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales where
the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the
"Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi" and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the series
O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan :
"Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle
Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu
depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de la
guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad. charge
a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages ordinaires de
1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez..."
We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years old
and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the king's
marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead by 1695
("feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle").
Marcelle Benoît in her "Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et
XVIIIe siècles" writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the
province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded him in
his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and Anne
d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a certain
Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660.
That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who was
naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he was
"natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la Religion
catholique, apostolique et romaine" (O.1 25, f° 203 & 242)
In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was
qualified "La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre".
Same thing in 1686.
In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had only
600 lt.
In 1689, he had only 600 lt.
In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer and
Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt...
In 1693, he is called "Sieur de la Salle" and is listed for a sum of 600 lt
with a comment "n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de
distribution" ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...)
Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to "Louis Jourdand de la
Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard Jourdan de
la Salle son père".
Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his
brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : "il ne
connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il jouait
de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout ce qu'il
voulait"...
According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been
Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his
father's functions.
End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed to
one of the two Jourdan de la Salle...
We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de
Briceño, but that is another story ;-) !
All the best,
Jean-Marie
PS: all the information is to be found in Marcelle Benoit, "Versailles et les
musiciens du roi" and "Musiques de cour, chapelle, chambre, écurie; recueil de
documents", Paris : Picard, 1971 and her Dictionnaire, Paris : Fayard, 1992
--
>I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book "The guitar and
>its music" (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit.
>
>Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' "Maitre de guittarre" at least
>since 1650 and
>he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620.
>Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV
>had died and Louis XV had succeeded him.
>
>Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of Cadiz.
>This is a small town on the coast.
>
>The reference which Jim gives is Benoit "Dictionnairede la musique en France
>aux XVIIe et XVIIIe" 1992 p. 728
>
>I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I
>wonder if "Maitre de guitarre" doesn't necessarily mean that he actually
>taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his
>leisure hours. He may not have been a composer but a lot of stuff in
>manuscript is anonymous and it may have been difficult to get guitar music
>printed in France before engraving rather than printing from musical type
>became common.
>
>Best
>Monica
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Peter Danner"
>To: "Monica Hall"
>Cc: "Lutelist"
>Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:04 PM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>
>
>> Monica is quite right in pointing out that de Visee was never Louis XIV's
>> official guitar teacher, which brings up another question. It has been
>> years since I looked into the matter, but I find th
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Thank you for this, Jean-Marie. Precisely the information I was looking for. I
remember examining the Marcelle Beboit volumes in the Stanford library years
ago. Louis XIV did indeed have some ability on the guitar from contemporary
accounts, and Voltaire is later said to have stated that the only things Louis
XIV learned to do well were to dance and play the guitar.
On French-Spanish relationships, it might be worth pointing out that Louis'
mother, Anne of Austria, in spite of her name, was a Spanish Habsburg, the
daughter of King Philip III. Furthermore, Louis married the Infanta, Maria
Teresa, daughter of Philip IV of Spain. In his biography of Louis XIV, Olivier
Bernier mentions that she arrived in France not knowing a word of French and
throughout her life always spoke it with a heavy Spanish accent (p. 68). She
probably brought Spanish musicians in her retinue.
Peter Danner
On Mar 2, 2014, at 9:13 AM, "Jean-Marie Poirier" wrote:
Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales where
the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the
"Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi" and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the series
O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan :
"Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle
Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu
depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de la
guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad. charge
a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages ordinaires de
1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez..."
We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years old
and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the king's
marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead by 1695
("feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle").
Marcelle Benoît in her "Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et
XVIIIe siècles" writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the
province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded him in
his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and Anne
d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a certain
Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660.
That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who was
naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he was
"natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la Religion
catholique, apostolique et romaine" (O.1 25, f° 203 & 242)
In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was
qualified "La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre".
Same thing in 1686.
In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had only
600 lt.
In 1689, he had only 600 lt.
In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer and
Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt...
In 1693, he is called "Sieur de la Salle" and is listed for a sum of 600 lt
with a comment "n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de
distribution" ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...)
Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to "Louis Jourdand de la
Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard Jourdan de
la Salle son père".
Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his
brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : "il ne
connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il jouait
de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout ce qu'il
voulait"...
According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been
Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his
father's functions.
End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed to
one of the two Jourdan de la Salle...
We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de
Briceño, but that is another story ;-) !
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
>On French-Spanish relationships, it might be worth pointing out that Louis' >mother, Anne of Austria, in spite of her name, was a Spanish Habsburg, >the >daughter of King Philip III. Furthermore, Louis married the Infanta, Maria >Teresa, daughter of Philip IV of Spain. In his biography of Louis XIV, >>Olivier Bernier mentions that she arrived in France not knowing a word of >French and throughout her life always spoke it with a heavy Spanish >accent >(p. 68). She probably brought Spanish musicians in her retinue. > >Peter Danner Precisely one of the possible reasons why Briceño chose to settle in Paris and had his book published by "Pedro Ballard" in 1626. Anne and her Spanish retinue had been in France for more than ten years by then... Another clear hint at the Spanish influence is the number of Airs de Cour in Spanish by Gabriel Bataille and by Moulinié (with guitar tablature). There is a short but very good chapter on this subject by Mrs Georgie Durosoir who is one of the best specialists of the 17th century in France in a book entitled "L'âge d'or de l'influence espagnole; la France et l'Espagne à l'époque d'Anne d'Autriche - 1615 - 1666" (pp. 385 - 392). Mont-de-Marsan : Editions Interuniversitaires, 1991 A fascinating period ! Best wishes, Jean-Marie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On Mar 1, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: > before you know it, it's a "known fact" that de Visee was from > Portugual. My offhand remark that started this thread was based on a "known fact" that I gleaned from the liner notes of a Segovia LP (you may commence giggling), when I was not old enough to distrust such things: Visee was a Spaniard, born Roberto Viseo. I never had occasion to inquire further, so until a few days I still believed it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have
been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one
comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695
and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he
visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few
master classes when he was in Paris.
Best
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"
To: "Monica Hall" ; "Peter Danner"
Cc: "'Lute List'"
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
Marcelle Benoit quotes a document of 1695 from the Archives Nationales
where the surviving papers of the royal household are kept. It is from the
"Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi" and on march 14th 1695, f° 38v in the
series O.1 39 there is this allusion to Jourdan :
"Retenüe de joüeur de guitarre du Roy, pour le Sr de la Salle
Ayant egard aux services que feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle nous a rendu
depuis l'année 1650 que nous le choisismes pour nous enseigner a joüer de
la guitarre, nous avons bien voulu, en cette consideration, conserver lad.
charge a Louis Jourdan de la Salle, son fils, et luy contnuer les gages
ordinaires de 1200 livres tournois qui y sont attribuez..."
We learn that Louis XIV started to learn the guitar when he was 12 years
old and that his teacher, who had come to France 10 years before the
king's marriage with his Spanish cousin Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche, was dead
by 1695 ("feu Bernard Jourdan de la Salle").
Marcelle Benoît in her "Dictionnaire de la musique en France aux XVIIe et
XVIIIe siècles" writes that he was a native a Sanlucar de Barrameda in the
province of Cadiz, as Monica justly quotes. Louis, his son who succeded
him in his functions, was born in 1659 and Louis XIV was his godfather and
Anne d'Autriche - the king's mother - his godmother. Bernard married a
certain Elizabeth Lesueur and had a daughter Elizabeth Laurente in 1660.
That's about the only facts we have about Bernard Jourdan de la Salle, who
was naturalized in 1681, and the act where this is recorded says that he
was "natif de St Luc en Espagne (=Sanluccar) faisant profession de la
Religion catholique, apostolique et romaine" (O.1 25, f° 203 & 242)
In 1684 he was paid 600 lt, like Champion, Ithier, Marais etc... and was
qualified "La SAlle, maître à jouer de la guitarre".
Same thing in 1686.
In 1688 he received 1200 lt, wheres the other musiciens of la Chambre had
only 600 lt.
In 1689, he had only 600 lt.
In 1691, he received 1200 lt. againn more than Michel Lambert, the singer
and Lully father-in-law who only got 720 lt...
In 1693, he is called "Sieur de la Salle" and is listed for a sum of 600
lt with a comment "n'a pas été payé faute de de fonds dans l'estat de
distribution" ( ;-) public money shortage not a new problem it seems...)
Eventually, in 1695 the money (1200 lt.) is delivered to "Louis Jourdand
de la Salle, maistre à jouer de la guitarre du Roy, au lieu de feu Bernard
Jourdan de la Salle son père".
Louis XIV must have been a rather gifted sutdent as, after his death, his
brother's wife Elisabeth-Charlotte de Bavière wrote in a letter : "il ne
connaissait aucune note de musique, mais il avait l'oreile juste et il
jouait de la guitare mieux qu'un maître, arangeant sur cet instrument tout
ce qu'il voulait"...
According to M. Benoit, Francisque Corbett (= Corbetta) seems to have been
Bernard Jourdan's successor in spite of Louis Jourdan, legal heir of his
father's functions.
End of story. No music so far has been unearthed that could be attributed
to one of the two Jourdan de la Salle...
We were more lucky with another Spaniard who had settled inFrance, Luys de
Briceño, but that is another story ;-) !
All the best,
Jean-Marie
PS: all the information is to be found in Marcelle Benoit, "Versailles et
les musiciens du roi" and "Musiques de cour, chapelle, chambre, écurie;
recueil de documents", Paris : Picard, 1971 and her Dictionnaire, Paris :
Fayard, 1992
--
I can only tell you what James Tyler has said in his book "The guitar and
its music" (2002) p. 108 as I don't have a copy of Benoit.
Jourdan de la Salle had been Louis XIVs' "Maitre de guittarre" at least
since 1650 and
he died in 1695. He was then succeeded by his son Louis who died in 1620.
Louis Jourdan was succeeded by De Visee.by which time of course Louis XIV
had died and Louis XV had succeeded him.
Jourdan apparently was from Sanlucar de Barrameda in the province of
Cadiz.
This is a small town on the coast.
The reference which Jim gives is Benoit "Dictionnairede la musique en
France
aux XVIIe et XVIIIe" 1992 p. 728
I am not sure about this and perhaps Jean-Marie can enlighten us - but I
wonder if "Maitre de guitarre" doesn't necessarily mean that he actually
taught Louis to play. More that he was there to play to the King in his
leisure hours. He may not have been a composer but a lot of stuff in
manuscript
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
After the remarks made about Satoh's liner notes, I hate to cite any others, but in Philippe Beaussant's rather poignant notes to Hopkison Smith's Pieces de Theorbe (Astree 7733), claim is made that Corbetta became known to Louis when Lully had the two play together in le Ballet de la Galanterie du temps. I believe this was1656. Corbetta must have been proud of this performance, since it is mentioned in both prefaces to his book of 1671. I reason (conjecture again!) that guitar instructions from Corbetta to the King would have been earlier rather than later. Jourdan was succeeded by his son, Louis Anne, in 1695. So, why was it de Visee, not Jourdan, who was specifically called on to play the guitar to Louis while the latter was recovering from his almost-fatal illness of 1686? The guitar-loving king must have admired his playing. (Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death.) Peter On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Many many thanks for all this fascinating information. Jourdan must have been quite an important person in Louis' household. I have only one comment - Corbetta died in 1681 so he can't have succeeded Jourdon in 1695 and in any case he spent most of his last 20 years in England although he visited France again on a number of occasions. Perhaps he gave Louis a few master classes when he was in Paris. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On 02/03/14 7:56 PM, Peter Danner wrote: Incidentally, it was while performing the Te Deum written to celebrate Louis' recovery from this illness that Lully suffered the wound that caused his death. Oh no...I fear we're next going to learn that the tale of Lully's death from gangrene brought about by an accident with his conducting staff is a fable also! It must be true: Wikipedia says so. Not to mention the liner notes on every record of Lully's music. Incidentally, I learned from Wikipedia that the guitar was Lully's first instrument. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
