[LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Thibault MS

[Francesco Tribioli]

   Hi Sarge

  Most of the files are in the Google drive which address I had sent
   to the new group. You can also access them via the new Fronimo mini
   site, which is the official repository for the software too.

   https://sites.google.com/view/fronimo/home

   I transferred most of the files from the old Yahoo group but a few of
   them did not download properly. Maybe the Balletti file was one of
   those because it is not in the new collection

   Best

   Francesco

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: "Frank A. Gerbode, M.D." 
   Data: 17/05/20 18:04 (GMT+01:00)
   A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Thibault MS

   Does anyone know who encoded Bernadino Balletti Intabolatura de Lauto
   (1554), which may have been in the old Yahoo group lute tab files? It's
   a little lute book I wanted to include on my site, but I would like to
   credit the person who did the work of encoding it.
   And what happened to all the files that were in the old Yahoo group?
   They do not seem to all be included in the new Google group source.
   Thanks!
   --Sarge
   --
   Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net)
   11132 Dell Ave
   Forestville, CA 95436-9491
   Home phone:  707-820-1759
   Website:  http://www.gerbode.net
   "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale

[tribioli]

   Yes, they are free for any non commercial use. Of course, I encourage
   everyone to use them together with Fronimo :-)))

   Francesco

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: "Frank A. Gerbode, M.D." 
   Data: 29/03/20 20:15 (GMT+01:00)
   A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale

  The fronimo fonts are just regular windows fonts. They are available
   in
  the free demo version of fronimo.
  But I would check with [1]Francesco Tribioli to see if there are
  copyright issues in using these fonts in finale.
  --Sarge
  On 3/29/2020 06:09, Mac User wrote:
   Fronimo's fonts do look great, but . . .
   1. Wouldn't I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I
   would have a
   program I can't install or use on my Mac.
   2. It is my understanding that Fronimo's fonts are formatted for
   Windows and don
   't work on the Mac anyway.
   Is this correct?
   Craig
   On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza [2]
   wrote:
   Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale.
   Regards
   Fabio
   Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto:
   Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software
   for many ye
   ars. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music
   for a mi
   xed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale
   does a fab
   ulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've
   had (and
   have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the
   letters
   when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on
   my compute
   r; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when
   two or mo
   re notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo,
   but I don'
   t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone
   here hav
   e a recommendation?
   Craig Wiggins
   Durham, NC
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([4]sa...@gerbode.net)
   11132 Dell Ave
   Forestville, CA 95436-9491
   Home phone:  707-820-1759
   Website:  [5]http://www.gerbode.net
   "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
  --
   References
  1. mailto://ftribi...@gmail.com/
  2. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  4. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
  5. http://www.gerbode.net/

[LUTE] Re: Android OS software

[tribioli]

   I've got a reconditioned Surface 4 that I use with MobileSheet. I use
   it for singing so I wanted a light emitting device to cope with dark
   environments too, like some churches. E-ink devices are probably better
   when there is enough light

   Francesco

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: David van Ooijen 
   Data: 05/01/20 21:31 (GMT+01:00)
   A: lutelist Net 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Android OS software

  Thanks Dan, I saw that video too. Also saw the Gvido (double A4).
   Too
  bad that one doesn't survive in the real life reviews. There's an
  Italian company that makes A4 size e-ink readers you can connect
   into
  double A4. Also tempting.
  Let us know your experiences  with the Max3
  David
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com
  ***
  On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 21:17, Daniel Shoskes
   <[3]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  I ended up getting the Boox Max 3
  [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wgf4WWS3o=emb_logo
  Tutorial by a pianist for the Boox Max 2
  [5]https://youtu.be/U2jBA3lVXWI
  Happy to send you photos of how music looks on it (both computer
  generated and scanned MS) if you are interested.Very clear. Surface
  actually feels like paper. This version works with finger touch and
  with a stylus. Pairs with bluetooth pedals for page turns.
  Danny
  On Jan 5, 2020, at 3:01 PM, David van Ooijen
  <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Hi Dan
 Can we ask what device you have? I've been looking at e-ink sheet
  music
 readers lately, but I couldn't make my mind up.
 David
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 [2][8]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com
 ***
 On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 20:56, Daniel Shoskes
  <[3][9]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 This is the year I've committed to reducing paper clutter
  throughout
 the house so I've finally bought a dedicated tablet for music
 storage and performance. I got a 13.3 inch E ink display
   which
  is
 friendly to my aging eyes and can fit a lot of music on 1
   page.
  It
 is however the first device I have owned that runs Android
   (9.0)
 rather than iOS. Settled on MobileSheetsPro for sheet music
 management which has a dedicated E ink version (but no Mac or
  iOS
 equivalent).
 Would be interested to hear from anyone who uses Android
  software
 for lute music purposes on a tablet. Any valuable programs
   out
 there?
 Thanks
 Danny
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
  References
 1. [11]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 2. [12]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 3. [13]mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
 4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
   References
  1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  3. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
  4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wgf4WWS3o=emb_logo
  5. https://youtu.be/U2jBA3lVXWI
  6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  8. https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/
  9. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 11. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 12. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 13. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: historically accurate concerts

[Francesco Tribioli]

Well, that's a truly flattering firing :-)

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu  mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.
> Inviato: lunedì 18 novembre 2019 16:17
> A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: historically accurate concerts
> 
> I had a gig in an art gallery a few years ago.  I got fired after awhile, 
> because
> people were paying too much attention to me and not enough to the art!
> 
> --Sarge
> 
> On 11/18/2019 05:48, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
> > Here's one thought:
> >
> > Lute concerts are often given in large halls or churches, though they
> > are not really attracting a huge crowd.
> >
> > Huge crowds are also not really the setting in which lutenists
> > florished back then.
> >
> >
> > Recently, I had been invited to play the lute at a 30something
> > birthday party on saturday night, a crowd of about 40 people max. Not
> > one of the guests had probably ever heard Renaissance music.
> >
> > The host assured me that he wanted this and would deny any requests
> > for other music from the stereo.
> >
> > It was a two bedroom late 1800s apartment with 11.5 ft./3.50m ceilings
> > and all doors were open, I played in a 215 sqft/20 m² room where I sat
> > on a chair in the corner at a table lit with a lamp.
> >
> > So I played straight from my 500+ p. book (message me if you are
> > interested in my selection), for about 8 hours (it actually felt more
> > like two).
> >
> > There was no programme, I just selected pieces on the fly according to
> > "room temperature". There were sight-reading glitches, but no one
> > noticed or cared.
> >
> > The reactions were very positive and no one complained about the music
> > though most of the people normally listened to house, electro and
> > other non-early musical styles.
> >
> > The music was described as:
> >
> > * never annoying
> >
> > * with a huge range of emotions
> >
> > * very pleasant for conversation
> >
> > * very interesting to listen to if you care to come close
> >
> > * filling the whole apartment (!)
> >
> > This was probably a setting more historically accurate than listening
> > to French chanson intabulations in a church.
> >
> > The acoustics were perfect for a full and clear sound.
> >
> >
> > I found this house concert situation very pleasing. You need to say
> > goodbye to silence though. But having conversations to lute music is a
> > whole other experience, as is playing lute for people not consciously
> > listening most of the time.
> >
> > You end up with two or three people sitting closer and listening, the
> > rest enjoying the atmosphere.
> >
> > I would highly recommend this experience.
> >
> >
> > What are your experiences with house concerts? Has anyone ever played
> > in the background?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> --
> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net)
> 11132 Dell Ave
> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
> Home phone:  707-820-1759
> Website:  http://www.gerbode.net
> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Exactly. In my opinion the right violation can be only on the brand mark, if
it has been registered and if Thomann lutes had it on them. There could not
be a copyright on a lute design, in my opinion, as they are from historical
designs which are public domain. Probably if the LDD rosette was a very
special design they could register it but it is a standard original design
that every luthier has used once in his life. 

It is like the copyright on fonts. One can copyright the font file, that is
the computer instructions that permit the rendering of the typeface on
screen and printer, but cannot copyright the typeface, the actual aspect of
the characters. If there is some special lute feature exclusive of LDD
lutes, that could be copyrighted, but if they are "almost" traditional I
think everyone is authorized to make an identical lute. At the end it is
even difficult to say if the plan used is protected. In principle yes, but
one could have copied one of the already built lutes, as it is usually done
with the museum lutes, and have his own plane.

To be honest, in this case it seems there is not even a guarantee that those
lutes didn't come from the same factory. If this is the case both Thomann
and LDD have been tricked by the Chinese makers and LDD should complain with
the Chinese maker, if there is a contract of exclusive supply. If the
Chinese didn't sign a contract in exclusive they might even be in their
right to sell the same lute to other brands...

On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to
have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass
building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to
grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few
years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without
personality.

Francesco 

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu  mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di David van Ooijen
> Inviato: venerdì 20 settembre 2019 11:00
> Cc: Lute List 
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
> 
>I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann
>instead of the Chinese supplier. Chinese suppliers of copied
>instruments often use the pictures  from the originals, and not form
>their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson,
>Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures
>taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from
>what you will actually get. I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by
>distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the
>stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the
>Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should
> be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier.
>On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically
>accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate lute, whose
>copyright are you infringing if you make that same historically
>accurate  lute?
>David
>***
>David van Ooijen
>[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>***
> 
>On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 10:39, Anthony Hind
><[3]agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Bruno and other Lutenists
>Following on from questions raised by Bruno Carneiro and
>  others
> about Thomann Canterlla lutes being possible copies of LLD lutes,
>  I see
> Braedon Hofmann has posted this video about this question:
> [1][4]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0
> Regards
> Anthony
> [2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> --
>  References
> 1. [5]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0
> 2. [6]https://yho.com/footer0
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>3. mailto:agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>4. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0
>5. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0
>6. https://yho.com/footer0
>7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Italian translation help

[Francesco Tribioli]

That is a typo. As a couple of lines over, it should read "penano", that means 
"to do with effort/sufference" or in this case "to take more or less time".

"Penare poco", in Tuscan dialect, means "to do it quickly"

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu  mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Tristan von Neumann
> Inviato: lunedì 2 settembre 2019 12:53
> A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Italian translation help
> 
> Looking up "penono" in google books before 1600 yields this result for
> example:
> 
> 
> https://books.google.de/books?id=APbzB12mfd8C=PA327="penono
> "
> 
> 
> Any idea in this context?
> 
> 
> 
> On 02.09.19 12:37, Matteo Turri wrote:
> > Saltarello detto la bella Bianca ha hauto [= avuto] torto
> > Saltarello called the beautiful Bianca was wrong
> > Saltarello O chel me tira il brazo
> > Saltarello Oh it (she?) is pulling my arm
> >  Saltarello detto Se la passasse
> > Saltarello called If she would pass [this way]
> > I have no idea what a Penono is ...
> > Matteo
> > On Mon, 2 Sep 2019, 11:01 Robert Barto, <[1]r.ba...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> >  Hi all,
> >  Can anyone help with the following from Borrono's 1548 books?
> >  Saltarello detto il Penono
> >  Saltarello detto la bella Bianca ha hauto torto
> >  Saltarello O chel me tira il brazo (which I've been assuming �
> >   has
> >  something to do with arm position because all the little partial
> >  barrés, but I've been way off with translations in the past.)
> >  Saltarello detto Se la passasse
> >  Thanks,
> >  Robert
> >  Virenfrei. [1][2]www.avast.com
> >  --
> >   References
> >  Visible links:
> >  1.
> >   [3]https://www.avast.com/sig-
> email?utm_medium=email_source=link&
> >   utm_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> >  Hidden links:
> >  3.
> >   [4]https://www.avast.com/sig-
> email?utm_medium=email_source=link&
> >   utm_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> >  4.
> >   file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L31539-
> 1493TMP.html#DAB4FAD8
> >   -2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> >   To get on or off this list see list information at
> >   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
> > 2. http://www.avast.com/
> > 3. https://www.avast.com/sig-
> email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-
> email_content=emailclient
> > 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-
> email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-
> email_content=emailclient
> > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >

[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

[tribioli]

   Dowland is quite late

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: r.turov...@gmail.com
   Data: 27/07/19 17:32 (GMT+01:00)
   A: Rainer 
   Cc: Lute net 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

   F# on the 4th course shows up quite a lot in Dowland.
   RT
   
   http://turovsky.org
   Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   > On Jul 27, 2019, at 7:09 AM, Rainer 
   wrote:
   >
   >> On 26.07.2019 21:53, tribioli wrote:
   >>Everything you need about fret positions is written in David van
   Oojien
   >>page about temperaments. I use the 1/6 comma (pythagorean) with
   the
   >>first fret to the A flat position (for a G first string). That
   gives a
   >>very wrong F sharp on the IV course (it is a G flat indeed) but
   old
   >>music does show D major chord with the F sharp to the IV course
   really
   >>really seldom (that's another thing that seems to show they used
   some
   >>sort of temperament)
   >
   >
   > Excellent! Facts - some people have serious problems with facts.
   >
   >> on 15.05.2018 (obviously before the football World Cup) I wrote:
   >>
   >> Another argument, I have not seen here, yet.
   >> In unequal [must be equal] temperament all octaves are pure.
   >> In 1/6 meantone the octave 2e, 4b is not pure at all.
   >> There is a piece by de Rippe where he uses 2e and 5g instead.
   >> I have run a regular expression search (the computer gurus will
   know) on all my tab files (to scan Fronimo files is impossible, the
   format is binary):
   >> the octave 2d, 4a occurs 805 times.
   >> The octave2e, 4b occurs 0 [yes zero] times.
   >> I think this is a rather convincing argument, is it not?
   >> Rainer
   >> The regular expression is not very sophisticated since it does not
   properly handle ornaments. But 805:0 is even better than Germany's 7:1
   :)
   >
   > Rainer
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

[tribioli]

   Everything you need about fret positions is written in David van Oojien
   page about temperaments. I use the 1/6 comma (pythagorean) with the
   first fret to the A flat position (for a G first string). That gives a
   very wrong F sharp on the IV course (it is a G flat indeed) but old
   music does show D major chord with the F sharp to the IV course really
   really seldom (that's another thing that seems to show they used some
   sort of temperament)

   Francesco

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: Martyn Hodgson 
   Data: 26/07/19 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
   A: David van Ooijen 
   Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list" 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

  Thank you: it will be interesting to compare your preferences
  for fret positioning to those advocated by others - should they
  ever appear..
  MH
  On Friday, 26 July 2019, 17:42:19 BST, David van Ooijen
   wrote:
Somebody wants numbers? In the link below are some numbers.
But using your ears is a better idea than blindly (deafly?)
   following
(mine or other people's) numbers. Get the major third you like
(harmonic f-a on 4th course for a pure major third, or a something
slightly less extreme if you so wish) and then tune octaves and
   shift
your frets around: 1st fret up for the flats or down for the
   sharps
  (I
have my continuo archlute 1st fret up for the flats, with a
   tastini
  on
5, 6 and 7 for the sharps, I avoid the g# on first course - or try
   to
avoid it anyway), 2nd fret down, 3rd fret up, 4th fret down, 5th
   only
slightly up, 6th and 7th fret down again. Tune, adjust, fiddle
   around
until you're happy with it.
But someone was asking for numbers in stead of real life luting.
   Here
are my numbers:

   [1][1]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lu
  te/
David
On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 18:19, [2][2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
<[3][3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
  You use your ears to move the frets? Wouldn't using your
  fingers
  be
  easier?
  Sent from my Huawei phone
   Original Message 
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
  From: howard posner
  To: "[4][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list"
  CC:
You might want to reread the part about using your ears.
  "Precise
fret positions" is an irrelevant concept if you tune by
  actually
listening; that's why your repeated demands for numbers
   are
  going
unanswered.
> On Jul 26, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson
<[5][5]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>Thank you Stephan,
>Would you kindly share what precise fret positions
  result
  when
you set
>the
>'fifth fret so high that you can still enjoy and work
  your way
>through.'
>MH
>
>On Friday, 26 July 2019, 13:17:31 BST, Stephan
   Olbertz
><[6][6]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
>You wouldn't even need a tuner. Just set a fifth fret
   so
  high
that you
>can
>still enjoy and work your way through all the other
  frets
  and
open
>courses
>by means of comparing octaves and unisons.
>Use strings that are neither too old nor too new. And
   be
  sure to
tune
>to a
>fourth based tuning.
>Regards
>Stephan
>
>Im Auftrag
>von Roland Hayes
>Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juli 2019 13:36
>An: Martyn Hodgson; [3][7][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
  Steve
  Ramey
>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
>  Or you could get a meantone tuner and use your ears
  and
  not a
>measuring
>  tape
>  Get [1]Outlook for Android
>

   __
To get on or off this list see list information at

   [8][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
***
David van Ooijen
[9][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
--
  References
1.

   

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[tribioli]

   That's why I am usually quiet. Better say nothing and left the others
   with the doubt you are dumb than speak out and make them sure you are
   dumb indeed  :-):-)

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: David van Ooijen 
   Data: 22/07/19 20:13 (GMT+01:00)
   A:
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

  Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
  Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.
  It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better
   when
  they do so on subjects they have some experience with.
  David
  On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:04, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other
instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT

[2]http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen
<[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>
>>
>>on.There survive some historical discussions of lute
>  fretting but the
>>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.A sideways
>  application of
>>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
and
>  fretted
>>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>
>--
>
>***
>David van Ooijen
>[1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>[2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>***
>
>--
>
> References
>
>1. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>2. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
  --
   References
  1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
  2. http://turovsky.org/
  3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Re:

[tribioli]

   It is very nice, on the contrary.

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: r.turov...@gmail.com
   Data: 21/07/19 19:37 (GMT+01:00)
   A: Lex van Sante 
   Cc: lute mailing list list 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Re:

  It is equally hideous on harpsichord-
  [1]https://youtu.be/0z7nW2jRA7g
  
  [2]http://turovsky.org
  Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
  On Jul 21, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Lex van Sante <[3]lvansa...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  Anyone can hear that this organ is not in tune.
  Whatever the temperament the octaves should be pure.
  I agree with Roman that this sounds horrible but this has nothing to
   do
  with the temperament.
  Cheers,
  Lex
Op 21 jul. 2019, om 17:59 heeft [4]r.turov...@gmail.com het
   volgende
geschreven:
 This is a piece by Tarquinio Merula in MT,
 Anything but beautiful-
 [1][5]https://youtu.be/dyzYjyp8zCw
 
 [2][6]http://turovsky.org
 Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
 On Jul 21, 2019, at 11:34 AM, David van Ooijen
 <[3][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
   The beauty of MT is that each key has it's own character. I've
played
   l'Orfeo 30 times. 30 Times in MT. I've lost count of the times
I've
   played Monteverdi's Maria Vespers (over one hundred times,
anyway)
 all
   in MT.
   David
   On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 at 17:21, <[1][4][8]r.turov...@gmail.com>
wrote:
 So - I took a quick look: l'Orfeo starts in C and goes
   through
a,
 d,
 F, g, G, Bb, c and even f.
 A separate theorbo for each key change, I suppose!))
 RT
 
 [2][5][9]http://turovsky.org
 Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:49 AM, [3][6][10]r.turov...@gmail.com
wrote:
   Out of curiosity:
   There should be estimates around of how many keys say a
Monteverdi
 opera goes through.
   I am pretty sure Claudio didn't worry about the fretted guys
 temperaments, did he?
   unless they had a different axe per movement.
   RT
   
   [4][7][11]http://turovsky.org
   Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   On Jul 21, 2019, at 6:16 AM, tribioli
 <[5][8][12]tribi...@arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
I know only one thing: for me 1/6 comma practically works. No
 slanted
frets nor tastini. I don't bear anymore to play early
 Renaissance music
in equal temperament which on the other hand I use on all the
 later
music as it allows to play in other keys than the "standard"
Renaissance keys.
I think there were not so many rules in the past. Galilei
 advocates
against tastini, so there were people using them and meantone
temperament. How many we don't know. Piccinini advocates
 playing with
nails, others say not. Besard says to stretch the thumb out,
 some
others say to do so if your hand allows it (for instance, I
 have a
short thumb, one falanx shorter than usual). In any case,
 Besard (if I
remember correctly) blames those who play shaking their hand,
 so there
were some musicians that still played thumb under at his time.
 How many
we don't know. Lately, some, many?, people played with the
 pinky very
close or behind the bridge, so they probably had lower string
 tensions,
which is probably good for instruments with many strings, and
   a
completely different sound of what now people think is nice.
 Even our
instruments are biased by our ideal, sweet, sound, which BTW
   is
different from what was considered a good sound thirty years
 ago, but
if one reproduces exactly the thickness and bar dimensions of
 the
surviving boards, the sound that comes out is much brighter.
 Ok, it
depends on the board stiffness too, but that's it.
It is a modern, romantic, idea that everything in music must
   be
written, the thecnique must be absolutely that etc. The old
 masters,
simply did what they liked more and worked better for them, of
 course
to the degree the instrument allowed. They wrote their own
 music or
freely adapted what was composed by others, simplifying or
 adding
diminutions as they thought was fit and th

[LUTE] Re: Re:

[tribioli]

   Just a theorbo and an archlute are enough. Not so bad :-)

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: r.turov...@gmail.com
   Data: 21/07/19 17:15 (GMT+01:00)
   A: tribioli 
   Cc: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   list" 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re:

   So - I took a quick look: l'Orfeo starts in C and goes through a, d, F,
   g, G, Bb, c and even f.
   A separate theorbo for each key change, I suppose!))
   RT
   
   http://turovsky.org
   Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   > On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:49 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
   >
   > Out of curiosity:
   > There should be estimates around of how many keys say a Monteverdi
   opera goes through.
   > I am pretty sure Claudio didn't worry about the fretted guys
   temperaments, did he?
   > unless they had a different axe per movement.
   > RT
   >
   > 
   > http://turovsky.org
   > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
   >
   >> On Jul 21, 2019, at 6:16 AM, tribioli 
   wrote:
   >>
   >>  I know only one thing: for me 1/6 comma practically works. No
   slanted
   >>  frets nor tastini. I don't bear anymore to play early Renaissance
   music
   >>  in equal temperament which on the other hand I use on all the later
   >>  music as it allows to play in other keys than the "standard"
   >>  Renaissance keys.
   >>
   >>  I think there were not so many rules in the past. Galilei advocates
   >>  against tastini, so there were people using them and meantone
   >>  temperament. How many we don't know. Piccinini advocates playing
   with
   >>  nails, others say not. Besard says to stretch the thumb out, some
   >>  others say to do so if your hand allows it (for instance, I have a
   >>  short thumb, one falanx shorter than usual). In any case, Besard
   (if I
   >>  remember correctly) blames those who play shaking their hand, so
   there
   >>  were some musicians that still played thumb under at his time. How
   many
   >>  we don't know. Lately, some, many?, people played with the pinky
   very
   >>  close or behind the bridge, so they probably had lower string
   tensions,
   >>  which is probably good for instruments with many strings, and a
   >>  completely different sound of what now people think is nice. Even
   our
   >>  instruments are biased by our ideal, sweet, sound, which BTW is
   >>  different from what was considered a good sound thirty years ago,
   but
   >>  if one reproduces exactly the thickness and bar dimensions of the
   >>  surviving boards, the sound that comes out is much brighter. Ok, it
   >>  depends on the board stiffness too, but that's it.
   >>
   >>  It is a modern, romantic, idea that everything in music must be
   >>  written, the thecnique must be absolutely that etc. The old
   masters,
   >>  simply did what they liked more and worked better for them, of
   course
   >>  to the degree the instrument allowed. They wrote their own music or
   >>  freely adapted what was composed by others, simplifying or adding
   >>  diminutions as they thought was fit and their thecnique allowed. As
   in
   >>  the case of the lute there is no continuity because no one have
   played
   >>  it for a couple of centuries, we can only guess and try to stay
   close
   >>  to what they "probably" did. If we like to do so, because at the
   end no
   >>  one wrote a law so the lutenists have to play only old music!
   Freedom
   >>  (in art, at least)!
   >>
   >>  Happy plucking
   >>
   >>   Messaggio originale 
   >>  Da: Matthew Daillie 
   >>  Data: 21/07/19 11:23 (GMT+01:00)
   >>  A: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list" 
   >>  Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re:
   Lute
   >>Temperaments
   >>
   >>  OK, I stand corrected, you know best. Have a nice day.
   >>  Matthew
   >>  Le 21 juil. 2019 à 11:15, Martyn Hodgson
   >>   a écrit :
   >>> Dear Matthew,
   >>> Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
   >>> 'slanging match'!.  My intention is merely to put some historical
   >>  and
   >>> practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
   >>> assertion.  To repeat: you are making the common mistake  of
   >>  discussing
   >>> theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only  employable on
   >>> keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
   >>> fretted instruments such as the lute.
   >>> Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner
   >>  ('meantone')
   >>> of fretting is

[LUTE] Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Lute Temperaments

[tribioli]

   I know only one thing: for me 1/6 comma practically works. No slanted
   frets nor tastini. I don't bear anymore to play early Renaissance music
   in equal temperament which on the other hand I use on all the later
   music as it allows to play in other keys than the "standard"
   Renaissance keys.

   I think there were not so many rules in the past. Galilei advocates
   against tastini, so there were people using them and meantone
   temperament. How many we don't know. Piccinini advocates playing with
   nails, others say not. Besard says to stretch the thumb out, some
   others say to do so if your hand allows it (for instance, I have a
   short thumb, one falanx shorter than usual). In any case, Besard (if I
   remember correctly) blames those who play shaking their hand, so there
   were some musicians that still played thumb under at his time. How many
   we don't know. Lately, some, many?, people played with the pinky very
   close or behind the bridge, so they probably had lower string tensions,
   which is probably good for instruments with many strings, and a
   completely different sound of what now people think is nice. Even our
   instruments are biased by our ideal, sweet, sound, which BTW is
   different from what was considered a good sound thirty years ago, but
   if one reproduces exactly the thickness and bar dimensions of the
   surviving boards, the sound that comes out is much brighter. Ok, it
   depends on the board stiffness too, but that's it.

   It is a modern, romantic, idea that everything in music must be
   written, the thecnique must be absolutely that etc. The old masters,
   simply did what they liked more and worked better for them, of course
   to the degree the instrument allowed. They wrote their own music or
   freely adapted what was composed by others, simplifying or adding
   diminutions as they thought was fit and their thecnique allowed. As in
   the case of the lute there is no continuity because no one have played
   it for a couple of centuries, we can only guess and try to stay close
   to what they "probably" did. If we like to do so, because at the end no
   one wrote a law so the lutenists have to play only old music! Freedom
   (in art, at least)!

   Happy plucking

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: Matthew Daillie 
   Data: 21/07/19 11:23 (GMT+01:00)
   A: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list" 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute
 Temperaments

   OK, I stand corrected, you know best. Have a nice day.
   Matthew
   Le 21 juil. 2019 à 11:15, Martyn Hodgson
a écrit :
   >   Dear Matthew,
   >   Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
   >   'slanging match'!.  My intention is merely to put some historical
   and
   >   practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
   >   assertion.  To repeat: you are making the common mistake  of
   discussing
   >   theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only  employable on
   >   keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
   >   fretted instruments such as the lute.
   >   Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner
   ('meantone')
   >   of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
   >   themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking.  Certainly,
   modern
   >   fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
   >   performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals
   who
   >   might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
   >   employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth
   century.
   >   In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
   >   reliable evidence of historic practice.
   >   regards
   >   MH
   >
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[tribioli]

   But major thirds are absolutely better, so...

   FT

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: Roman Turovsky 
   Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
   A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   list" 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

   Minor thirds get compromised, so
   RT
   On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
   > ??
   >
   > Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky  a
   écrit :
   >
   >> I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound
   more neutral than minor.
   >> RT
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo

[Francesco Tribioli]

Right, maybe Milan's tablature would be more correct

Francesco

> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
> Daniel Winheld
> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 9:47 PM
> To: tribioli ; Rainer  online.de>; Lute net 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo
> 
> On 1/2/2019 12:33 PM, tribioli wrote:
> "Actually Luis Milan tablature, that is Italian upside down."
> 
>   Triboli- of course! But since Luis Milan is the ONLY "Spanish"
> (Valencian?) composer known to use upside-down Italian (until the emergence
> of modern guitar tab), why should HIS tab. system be the one Spanish one?
> 
> The only real diff. I see between the Italian tabs. printed in Italy and the
> Spanish printed tabs is an ordinary looking "2" in the Italian prints and 
> rather
> "Z" looking 2 in the Spanish prints.
> 
> Happy New Year anyway! Wish this was the worst problem afflicting mankind
> (and lutekind) these days!
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >  Messaggio originale 
> > Da: Dan Winheld 
> > Data: 02/01/19 20:29 (GMT+01:00)
> > A: Rainer , Lute net
> > 
> > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo
> >
> > What is Spanish tablature?
> > On 1/2/2019 11:04 AM, Rainer wrote:
> > > Hello out there,
> > >
> > > I have a question regarding Fronimo:
> > >
> > > When I open a tab file (Wayne's tab pgm) in Fronimo, Fronimo "thinks"
> > > it is Italian tab.
> > >
> > > Any idea anybody how to tell Fronimo it is Spanish tablature?
> > >
> > > Rainer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >

[LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo

[tribioli]

   Actually Luis Milan tablature, that is Italian upside down

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: Dan Winheld 
   Data: 02/01/19 20:29 (GMT+01:00)
   A: Rainer , Lute net
   
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo

   What is Spanish tablature?
   On 1/2/2019 11:04 AM, Rainer wrote:
   > Hello out there,
   >
   > I have a question regarding Fronimo:
   >
   > When I open a tab file (Wayne's tab pgm) in Fronimo, Fronimo "thinks"
   > it is Italian tab.
   >
   > Any idea anybody how to tell Fronimo it is Spanish tablature?
   >
   > Rainer
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

[LUTE] Re: Spanish tab in FRonimo

[tribioli]

   Hello Rainer,

 I think there is no way because in TAB there isn't a specific flag,
   as far as I know, that marks a tablature as Spanish. As it is just an
   Italian tab upside down, TAB indeed does not need to process it
   differently than any other standard Italian tablature. I don't remember
   exactly the TAB format, I should check, but maybe you might fool
   Fronimo modifying the TAB file in a way that Fronimo thinks it is
   French tab and then use the Fronimo option to change the tablature
   style.

   Francesco

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: Rainer 
   Data: 02/01/19 20:04 (GMT+01:00)
   A: Lute net 
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Spanish tab in FRonimo

   Hello out there,
   I have a question regarding Fronimo:
   When I open a tab file (Wayne's tab pgm) in Fronimo, Fronimo "thinks"
   it is Italian tab.
   Any idea anybody how to tell Fronimo it is Spanish tablature?
   Rainer
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Francesco Tribioli]

I wonder what is left of the original idea of playing instruments, built as
the original ones were built, with historically informed technique. Single
strung archlutes, foldable theorbos, short theorbos strung with wound
strings, instruments with different vibrating lengths always tuned to 440
even stretching the physical limits of the instrument itself, synthetic
strings not even close to gut and even fishing lines, amplifiers, mechanical
pegs, pop music played on the lute... Oh well... :-(

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
> conto di Andreas Nachtsheim
> Inviato: mercoledì 30 agosto 2017 07:22
> A: Edward Martin 
> Cc: Tristan von Neumann ; George Arndt
> ; lutelist Net 
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
> 
> Hello all
> 
> the name of the Japanese brand is 'Seaguar' (made by Kureha) and they
> produce lots of different carbon fishing line. I made real good
experiences
> with their 'orange line' of Fluorocarbon line - this goes up to .91, but
the
> thicker ones (more than .52) are not easy to get in Europe. Their black
label
> called 'Grand Max' is also very good (up to .52) Other brands (available
in
> different diameters) I use are 'Gamakatsu G-Line' or 'Stroft'
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> 
> > Am 30.08.2017 um 01:49 schrieb Edward Martin :
> >
> >   Very interesting indeed.   Among the very first users of carbon
strings
> >   is Toyohiko Satoh, and the original company was called I think Seagar,
> >   or something like that.   They are a Japanese manufacturer of fishing
> >   line.   So, all who use carbon are using fishing line.
> >   ed
> >
> >   On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Tristan von Neumann
> >   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi George!
> > Thanks for sharing your experience! I was exactly looking for that
> > answer, but no one had attempted full stringing on a Renaissance
> > lute and I forgot.
> > What would you use for a 62cm Renaissance Lute 7c on G=415 or 432
> > Hz?
> > I'd be interested in a list and manufacturers, preferably those
> > available in Europe.
> > I thought monofilaments were thinner, the chanterelle was like .33mm
> > from Pyramid Strings. That could be a little hard on the holes.
> > I also don't want to damage my lute by overstringing it...
> > Thanks for the hint!
> >
> >   Am 29.08.2017 um 14:25 schrieb George Arndt:
> >
> >   Hello fellow lute players:
> >   I have been using salt water monofilament fishing line on my lutes
> >   for
> >   the past three years with satisfactory results. The only exception
> >   being the 7th course on Renaissance lutes and the diapasons on my
> >   Baroque lute that are wound with metal. I matched the diameter and
> >   length of the original strings with fishing line. If a string was
> >   easily broken I use a larger diameter to replace it. If peg
> >   friction
> >   was a inadequate, I decrease string diameter and replace that
> >   string.
> >   If a string slapped the fingerboard I used a larger diameter when
> >   I replace it.   One nice advantage is mono-filament strings may be
> >   pigmented and this helped me as I was learning to play. After
three
> >   years I am satisfied with the result. It cost $120 for a lifetime
> >   supply of strings for my seven lutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: To Franceso

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Rainer

Please try to use my personal address (ftribi...@gmail.com)

The one you are using is the work one. It should work but we are more strict 
with rules trying to block spam... 

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
> conto di Rainer
> Inviato: lunedì 6 febbraio 2017 14:03
> A: Lute net 
> Oggetto: [LUTE] To Franceso
> 
> Dear Francesco,
> 
> mails sent to you bounce back:
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; mailout10.t-online.de
> X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 3EBCC41E7261
> X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
> Arrival-Date: Mon,  6 Feb 2017 14:01:43 +0100 (CET)
> 
> Final-Recipient: rfc822; tribi...@arcetri.astro.it
> Original-Recipient: rfc822;tribi...@arcetri.astro.it
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.7.1
> Remote-MTA: dns; hercules.arcetri.astro.it
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.1 Service unavailable; client [194.25.134.21]
>  blocked using bl.mailspike.net
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another question to Francesco

[Francesco Tribioli]

Right

Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
> conto di Rainer
> Inviato: lunedì 6 febbraio 2017 14:04
> A: Lute net 
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Another question to Francesco
> 
> German tab with more than 6 courses is impossible, right?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A Fronimo question

[Francesco Tribioli]

Not exactly so. In regular installation, if one uses another font for the 
tablature letters the signature characters are still taken from the Fronimo 
symbols font (Ouverture.ttf).

Sometimes though it happens that the installer is not able to correctly install 
the fonts. It must be run as Administrator to work well otherwise the font 
files are copied but will not be usable by Windows, which will use the font it 
thinks is closer to the required. At this point, as you say, the characters 
does not correspond and boxes or other characters are displayed. The box is the 
Windows replacement symbol for undefined or not printable characters. The 
installer is configured to run under Administrator privileges automatically, 
but sometimes it is necessary to explicitly choose the option by right clicking 
its icon. So, the solution is to reinstall Fronimo using the Administrator 
privileges, no need to modify the fonts

Best wishes
Francesco

> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
> conto di Daniel F. Heiman
> Inviato: lunedì 6 febbraio 2017 14:44
> A: 'Rainer' 
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A Fronimo question
> 
> Rainer:
> 
> Yes, the time signature characters are located in the tablature font file, and
> the Fronimo font file layouts are not standard -- not all spots in the font 
> map
> are filled, and not all spots that are occupied are filled with the same
> character that is there in a standard text or display font.  If you use a 
> font for
> the tablature characters that was not supplied with the Fronimo software,
> the characters located at the corresponding place in the font map will
> sometimes be different.
> 
> Get a font editor and modify the font (e.g. Old English Text MT that comes
> with Windows) and save it under a new name.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of Rainer
> Sent: 06 February, 2017 04:54
> To: Lute net
> Subject: [LUTE] A Fronimo question
> 
> Erm, I assume most members of the Fronimo mailing list are members of this
> list.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Instead of time signatures get empty boxes.
> 
> I assume this is a font problem.
> 
> Any idea anybody?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Francesco Tribioli]

> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at
> finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better.
I am
> used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer
string. If
> someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer
> sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you'll ask.

I think that if one played only overwound strings he does not really need
loaded synthetic and can continue with wound strings. In my opinion, the CD
should be a replacement for the loaded gut strings, which are too expensive
to produce in all the calibers needed by lutenists. I would vote for the
second option or anything that goes close to the sound and sustain of loaded
gut basses.

Francesco



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: [Fronimo_editor] Font for German tab

[Francesco Tribioli]

http://www.fontspace.com/category/fraktur: a good source for free fraktur
fonts.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of mathias.roe...@t-online.de
 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 5:38 PM
 To: Arne Keller
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Fronimo_editor] Font for German tab
 
 F6, then choose fonts for tablature.
 
 Mathias
 
 -Original Message-
  Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:40:10 +0200
  Subject: [Fronimo_editor] Font for German tab
  From: Arne Keller arnekelle...@yahoo.com
  To: fronimo_edi...@yahoogroups.com
 
  I noticed in Matthias' note to Catherine on May 30. 2011, that a
  Gothic or Fraktur-font would be necessary to enter German
  characters. I pressed F8, but no such fonts. Where can I get such a
  one? And where to put it?
  Confused,
 
  Arne.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - Poll

[Francesco Tribioli]

Konrad Ragosnig 6 lp set for Archiv and even more a double lp with Eugen 
Dombois playing Weiss and Bach and Michael Schaeffer playing French baroque. 
Absolutely beautiful. It was the l#39;Infidele sonata (the wonderful Musette) 
and the Tombeau pour M. de Logis that convinced me that I wanted to play the 
lute.brbrFrancesco brbrbr- Reply message -brDa: 
quot;Lindberg, Richardquot; lt;richard.lindb...@arrisi.comgt;brA: 
quot;Allan Alexanderquot; lt;guitarandl...@earthlink.netgt;, 
quot;lute@cs.dartmouth.eduquot; lt;lute@cs.dartmouth.edugt;brOggetto: 
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - PollbrData: mar, ago 13, 2013 
00:04brbrbrBream for me and others that followed - but he was the 
first.brbr-Original Message-brFrom: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Allan AlexanderbrSent: 
Monday, August 12, 2013 5:36 PMbrTo: lute@cs.dartmouth.edubrSubject: [LUTE] 
Re: general public Lute aw!
 areness - PollbrbrJulian Bream hands downbrbrbrbrTo get on or off 
this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlbrbrbr

[LUTE] Re: In memoriam loaded gut

[Francesco Tribioli]

As far as I know Mimmo has completely stopped the production of loaded gut
strings and no one knows if he will ever start it again. My impression is
that the answer is no. I asked him many times to make the four basses needed
for my 11c and the answer has always been negative. At the end Martin
managed to get 4 suitable old production loaded strings that I hope will
last forever...

He was working on a sort of loaded and more elastic nylgut which should
sound like the loaded gut and be reliable enough to be mass produced.
Actually those kind of strings (red color too) are already available for the
ukulele but till now there is no production in the gauges needed for the
lute.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of David Smith
 Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 5:47 PM
 To: 'Martin Shepherd'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: In memoriam loaded gut
 
 Hi Martin,
 The Aquila site indicates that the stop of production of loaded gut is
 temporary and the US site of Aquila says it is special order. Is there
 somewhere else that indicates this will be permanent?
 
 David
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Martin Shepherd
 Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 6:13 AM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] In memoriam loaded gut
 
 Hi All,
 
 As the opportunity arose, just made a couple of quick and dirty
 recordings on an 11c lute I made a couple of years ago (after Maler,
 69cm) using loaded gut strings:
 
 www.luteshop.co.uk/11c/laltesseroyale.mp3
 www.luteshop.co.uk/11c/labellehomicide.mp3
 
 I am so sad that we cannot get these strings anymore.
 
 Martin
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Pronunciation of Fuenllana's name.

[Francesco Tribioli]

 
 I pronounce it the same way as I pronounce quesadilla or que. In other
 words,  like the English word day. I don't insert a w sound in there,
but
 the Spanish I learned (last year) was Mexican Spanish (and I may not be
 pronouncing that correctly). So, I pronounce it Fayn-yah-na.
I'm not Spanish either but queso, quesadilla etc. are without the w
because the first letter is the q. Fuenllana should be pronounced as
suerte, fuerza etc. that is with the w...

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Gut strings

[Francesco Tribioli]

Mimmo confirmed me a few days ago, when I phoned him, that the problem with
Sofracob was indeed related with this EU law about gut. Then, as far as I
know, it is the same company that sells gut stripes to every string maker
(except Toro and Stoppani perhaps? I don't know and Toro doesn’t make lute
strings anyway...), so the problem of bad quality of the prime matter will
probably surface for every producer of gut strings, soon or later.  

Kürschner - from the catalog they say: plain gut (polyester) so I wonder
if those strings are gut or polyester.

Pyramid made gut strings in the past but I don't see gut mentioned anywhere
in their site now.

Stoppani - I heard that he makes only bass and midrange strings, not
chantarelles, but I cannot say because there isn't a string catalog on his
site.
Kathedrale - I don't know: there isn't a string catalog either

Both Stoppani and Kathedrale seems to me like small companies, probably not
able to fill the string shortage.

The situation doesn't look bright...

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Bruno Fournier
 Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:39 PM
 To: b...@symbol4.de
 Cc: simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings
 
Hi All,A
 
One thing for sure, when I spoke to the Sofracob owner last year before
he closed, he mentioned that one of the main reasons and problems, was
the mad cow disease issues in France over the last few years, and that
it was becoming more and more difficult to obtain gut. A So who knows
what the real story is. A Did anyone ask Mimmo directly?
 
regards
 
BrunoA
 
Montreal, Canada
 
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:00 AM, [1]b...@symbol4.de wrote:
 
A  Does anyone know if Kuerchner in Germany is still making gut
strings?
A  Or Kathedrale (?).
 
  A  It is quite funny - and also a little bit alarming- to see, how
  the EU
  A  bureaucracy becames the projection area for the strangest ideas
  and
  A  fears. A reputation well earned, some may say, but a little bit
  more of
  A  horse sense is recommended when one reads announcements like the
  one
  A  about gut strings - (or, before, the one about the alleged
  prohibition
  A  of natural medicine).
  A  In fact many people here in Brussels are quite normal. I as a
  German
  A  was at once sure that it must be a hoax, because we eat every day
  A  12.689.344 sausages, many of them with a delicious skin of sheep
  gut. I
  A  called a big producer of those so called saitling sausage
  skins: they
  A  are producing happily and will go on forever. The same with
  Kuerschner
  A  strings.
  A  I asked people form the health department of the EU commission:
  guts no
  A  topic at all.
  A  If you want to read really strange laws, read your national
  legislation
  A  :))
  A  So: No idea, where the gut story comes from.
  A  Perhaps we should still start in the good tradition one of those
  A  internet petitions ;)
  A  best wishes (while wishing is still allowed)
  A  Bernd
  A  --
 
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
--
 
A
 
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
 
A
 
[3]www.estavel.org
 
A
 
--
 
 References
 
1. mailto:b...@symbol4.de
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
3. http://www.estavel.org/

[LUTE] Re: Gut strings

[Francesco Tribioli]

Opps

prime matter = raw material 

sometimes language assonances tricks me hehe

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Francesco Tribioli
 Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 4:23 PM
 To: 'Bruno Fournier'; b...@symbol4.de
 Cc: simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings
 
 Mimmo confirmed me a few days ago, when I phoned him, that the problem
 with Sofracob was indeed related with this EU law about gut. Then, as far
as I
 know, it is the same company that sells gut stripes to every string maker
 (except Toro and Stoppani perhaps? I don't know and Toro doesn’t make
 lute strings anyway...), so the problem of bad quality of the prime matter
will
 probably surface for every producer of gut strings, soon or later.
 
 Kürschner - from the catalog they say: plain gut (polyester) so I wonder
if
 those strings are gut or polyester.
 
 Pyramid made gut strings in the past but I don't see gut mentioned
 anywhere in their site now.
 
 Stoppani - I heard that he makes only bass and midrange strings, not
 chantarelles, but I cannot say because there isn't a string catalog on his
site.
 Kathedrale - I don't know: there isn't a string catalog either
 
 Both Stoppani and Kathedrale seems to me like small companies, probably
 not able to fill the string shortage.
 
 The situation doesn't look bright...
 
 Francesco
 
  -Original Message-
  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
  Behalf Of Bruno Fournier
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:39 PM
  To: b...@symbol4.de
  Cc: simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings
 
 Hi All,A
 
 One thing for sure, when I spoke to the Sofracob owner last year
before
 he closed, he mentioned that one of the main reasons and problems,
was
 the mad cow disease issues in France over the last few years, and
that
 it was becoming more and more difficult to obtain gut. A So who knows
 what the real story is. A Did anyone ask Mimmo directly?
 
 regards
 
 BrunoA
 
 Montreal, Canada
 
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:00 AM, [1]b...@symbol4.de wrote:
 
 A  Does anyone know if Kuerchner in Germany is still making gut
 strings?
 A  Or Kathedrale (?).
 
   A  It is quite funny - and also a little bit alarming- to see, how
   the EU
   A  bureaucracy becames the projection area for the strangest ideas
   and
   A  fears. A reputation well earned, some may say, but a little bit
   more of
   A  horse sense is recommended when one reads announcements like
 the
   one
   A  about gut strings - (or, before, the one about the alleged
   prohibition
   A  of natural medicine).
   A  In fact many people here in Brussels are quite normal. I as a
   German
   A  was at once sure that it must be a hoax, because we eat every
day
   A  12.689.344 sausages, many of them with a delicious skin of sheep
   gut. I
   A  called a big producer of those so called saitling sausage
   skins: they
   A  are producing happily and will go on forever. The same with
   Kuerschner
   A  strings.
   A  I asked people form the health department of the EU commission:
   guts no
   A  topic at all.
   A  If you want to read really strange laws, read your national
   legislation
   A  :))
   A  So: No idea, where the gut story comes from.
   A  Perhaps we should still start in the good tradition one of those
   A  internet petitions ;)
   A  best wishes (while wishing is still allowed)
   A  Bernd
   A  --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 --
 
 A
 
 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
 
 A
 
 [3]www.estavel.org
 
 A
 
 --
 
  References
 
 1. mailto:b...@symbol4.de
 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 3. http://www.estavel.org/
 

[LUTE] Re: Gut Strings

[Francesco Tribioli]

Mimmo wrote on facebook that most if not all the string producers use now
beef gut, because sheep gut is available only in limited amounts and would
not be enough for a sustained production. Beside this he says that to use
sheep gut doubles the production time. The use of sheep gut would result
then in more expensive strings and there would be a severe shortage. He said
also that even for beef it's not so simple to have gut from butcheries as
one could think, because the gut needs to be pre-treated and some machinery
and people that operate it is needed. So a butchery produces gut only if
there is enough request to make it an economically bearable activity and
there are very few of them around in the world that do it. The situation
might reach a no return point if the request for gut drops to a very low
level, because this might reduce the number of producers of raw gut.
Consider that in many things gut has been replaced by nylon almost
completely, tennis rackets for instance.

The big problem is for the gamba players. At least we have nylgut and other
synthetic strings but what about gambas if gut strings will disappear? All
the early music bow instrument range would be affected.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Taco Walstra
 Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:35 AM
 To: R. Mattes
 Cc: lute list
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut Strings
 
 On 11/16/2011 11:26 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
 
 Yes, I had exactly the same question.
 Apart from this: is gut not used in many medical situations to string
people
 together after cutting by a surgeon for example, or is this perhaps done
 these days with other materials (nylgut? ;-) ) Taco
 
  On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:08:14 +0100, Luca Manassero wrote
  Dear List,
  as Mimmo explains in a video (unfortunately in Italian) on his
  facebook page, the original beef gut regulation in EU was due to
fear
  of the so-called mad cow disease transmission.
 
  Excuse my ignorance, but since when are gut strings made out of beef
  gut? I always assumed that Aquilla's gut strings are made from sheep
  gut.
 
 
  Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 
  --
  R. Mattes -
  Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
  r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 --

[LUTE] Re: tablature software programs

[Francesco Tribioli]

What about abc/abctab? It's a textual format, like Wayne's TAB format,
Django as far as I know supports it (partially, completely? Export only or
both ways?), and might be an alternative to XML. The problem I see with it
is that it's complex and quite not user friendly for editing with a textual
editor. For instance, if I remember well, the same character can have
different meanings depending on modifier characters that follow it. Also
many of the notation signs and features it supports (covered by the abc part
of the format) are not implemented in our more tab oriented programs. Its
complexity and the necessity to support the format only partially make it
somewhat annoying to implement it in software, from my point of view, and
that's why till now I have postponed the work of adding it to Fronimo, but
if it is a standard that could be acceptable for the community I might
overcome my laziness 8^))

Of course there is always the option to define our own format, but it isn't
an easy task, because if we want something of general and that could last in
time the new format should support correctly and completely modern and
ancient notation, together with the many variants of tablature.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Mark Probert
 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:12 PM
 To: 'lute net'
 Cc: R. Mattes; Taco Walstra
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature software programs
 
 
 Hi...
 
  On 08/16/2011 11:12 AM, R. Mattes wrote:
  
   I have to aconfess that I'm not too enthusiastic about XML as a
   storage format for (lute) tablature.
 
  I second your last statement.
 
 
 I also agree, thinking that XML is a pox on all our houses :-)
 
 However, in this case, having a standard format would be good.  And XML
 does provide a syntax that could work, if in a rather inefficient and
verbose
 manner.
 
 My issue is that the MusicXML format is just not going to work very well
for
 lute music.  It is meant for a different purpose, one that doesn;t suit
our
 community very well at all, even though there is superficial similarities.
 
 I suppose that one option would be for the extended software-using lute
 community to come up with its own standard.  Form an interest group
 within the IETF (or whatever is applicable to this context) and define our
own
 standard.
 
 After all, the majority of us use one of Fronimo (Francesco), Django
(Alain),
 TAB (Wayne) or Sibelius.  That is not too many to get on-board.
 And it seems like Alain has already put in a lot of effort...
 
 . mark
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei

[Francesco Tribioli]

Here it is the only one I've found but the text is clean and with the
correct punctuation:
http://www.freehandmusic.com/sheet-music/o-felici-occhi-miei-from-354395. I
think it's correct also because, according to the Italian rules for counting
the syllables in a verse, it is formed of two stanzas each one of two
settenari (verses of seven syllables) and two endecasillabi (verses of
eleven syllables).

Best
Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Martin Shepherd
 Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 3:45 PM
 To: Lute List
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei
 
 Dear All,
 
 This seems almost too obvious - but has anyone checked the text in
 Arcadelt's original, or any other settings of the same text?  That
 might
 be a way to establish whether Ortiz has a corrupt version.
 
 While we're at it, could someone show us the Arcadelt, complete with
 music?  Arcadelt is usually good value, and there must be several
 intabulations to look at (don't have my copy of Brown handy at the
 moment).
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Martin
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei

[Francesco Tribioli]

rei here means guilty, harsh etc. Reo is someone who is recognized
responsible of a crime. Rei is the plural of reo. King is re and the
plural is again re. The English regal in Italian is regale so it's not
the case here.

The object of the lyric is a male. gli is male, female would be le and
also there is the mirarl'onde which is mirarlo onde and mirarLO is
referred to a male or it would have been mirarLA and the elision of the
o wouldn't have been possible.

The plot would be: the guy loves the singer eyes, a lady herself in love
with him that is her sun, just because they look similar to the eyes of his
beloved which to him (gli) were (fur) sweet (dolci) and harsh (rei-guilty
ecc.). The eyes of the singer are happy to see him but she is not because
she, to calm her eyes desire, hurries to gaze at him but then languishes
(because he loves the one who had probably rejected or abandoned him and not
her).

Not one of the best example of Italian poetry I would say 8^) Also it is a
quite strange and unusual situation, because normally it's the man that
languishes behind a lady in the poetry of that age. Might this be an
approximated transcription by the Spanish Ortiz of a text he didn't
completely understand?

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stephen Arndt
 Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:25 PM
 To: lute
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei
 
I'm not sure of the original text. A previous respondent seems to
 have
taken the translation from
http://www.loscuadernosdejulia.com/2007/02/o-felici-occhi-miei-
 arcadelt
-and-lute.html, which gives the following:
O felic' occhi miei, felici voi,
che sete car' al mio sol
perche sembianz' havete
de gliocchi che gli fu si dolc'e rei.
voi ben voi sete voi,
voi, voi felici et io,
io no, che per quetar vostro desio,
corr' a mirar l'onde mi struggo poi.
If this is the correct text, I would understand it thus:
O happy eyes of mine, you happy ones
who are dear to my sun
because you bear the semblance
of the eyes of her that were so sweet and regal.
You indeed, it is you,
You, you who (are) happy, and I,
I (am) not, who to quiet your desire,
hurry to gaze where I then languish.
I am not sure, however, about the word rei in line four of the
original. It is probably a contraction of reali, which is how both
 the
previous respondent and I have translated it, but it might be the
plural of reo (Latin reus), meaning guilty (perhaps because the
 eyes
of the lady in question elicited sinful desires in the poet?).
 
Hope this helps.
 
Stephen Arndt
--
From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 11:51 AM
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] O felici occhi miei

 Would anyone have a translation of Arcadelt's madrigal?

 Here are the words (from the Ortiz 1552 book). I apologize for
 probably not getting the lines/stanzas arranged correctly.


 O felici occhi miei felici voi
 Che sete car'al mio sol per che sembianz' havete
  de gl'occhi che gli fur si dolce rei
 voi ben voi sete voi
 voi voi felici et io, io no che per quetar vostro desio
 corr'a mirar l'onde mi strugo poi mi strugo poi.

 Mega-thanks in advance!!

 Sean

 ps Yes, it makes a nice lutesong. Solo in daCrema '46 (Minkoff)



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --

[LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei

[Francesco Tribioli]

In correct Italian gli can be referred to females only if they are more
than one, otherwise it is le (http://www.locuta.com/pronind.html for
reference of verbal espressions). In my edition of the Zingarelli (older
perhaps) I didn't find the statement you quote: it states pr. m. sg. atono
obl.. It correctly reports that in Tuscan dialect gli can be used
indifferently for both gender (I'm from Florence actually 8^)) but it's
indeed a dialectal form of a particular region, even if commonly used in
spoken modern Italian and considered a minor mistake. Probably it's to this
case that refers your edition of the Zingarelli. Anyway, here the poetical
common place for which the female eyes are sweet and harmful, being one of
the best weapons of love, is explicit and doesn't fit too well to a male.

là onde contracted to l'onde is to be excluded because the word là,
being so short, would be incomprehensible and might be confused with an
article. I would also exclude a translation of l'onde = the waves as it
would be literally. It might be that she goes to glaze at the sea but it
seems meaningless to me... So I think the only solution is that there is a
space added or a dash forgotten, as the text was probably extrapolated from
the lyrics.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stephen Arndt
 Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 1:07 AM
 To: 'lute'; Francesco Tribioli
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei
 
 I defer to Francesco, who is a native speaker, whereas I am not. I
 would
 like to point out, however, that Il nuovo Zingarelli does give
 pronome
 personale atono di terza persona femminile singulare (an unstressed
 personal pronoun of the third person feminine singular) as a second
 meaning
 of gli. I also wonder whether it is possible to take l'onde as a
 contraction of là onde (there where or the place where), which I
 was
 doing, especially since in the text I found it was not attached to the
 verb
 mirar but to the adverb onde. But perhaps it is not because là
 has a
 written accent. In any event, the text does seem a bit convoluted.
 
 --
 From: Francesco Tribioli tribi...@arcetri.astro.it
 Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 5:19 PM
 To: 'lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei
 
  rei here means guilty, harsh etc. Reo is someone who is
 recognized
  responsible of a crime. Rei is the plural of reo. King is re
 and the
  plural is again re. The English regal in Italian is regale so
 it's
  not
  the case here.
 
  The object of the lyric is a male. gli is male, female would be
 le and
  also there is the mirarl'onde which is mirarlo onde and mirarLO
 is
  referred to a male or it would have been mirarLA and the elision of
 the
  o wouldn't have been possible.
 
  The plot would be: the guy loves the singer eyes, a lady herself in
 love
  with him that is her sun, just because they look similar to the eyes
 of
  his
  beloved which to him (gli) were (fur) sweet (dolci) and harsh (rei-
 guilty
  ecc.). The eyes of the singer are happy to see him but she is not
 because
  she, to calm her eyes desire, hurries to gaze at him but then
 languishes
  (because he loves the one who had probably rejected or abandoned him
 and
  not
  her).
 
  Not one of the best example of Italian poetry I would say 8^) Also it
 is a
  quite strange and unusual situation, because normally it's the man
 that
  languishes behind a lady in the poetry of that age. Might this be an
  approximated transcription by the Spanish Ortiz of a text he didn't
  completely understand?
 
  Francesco
 
  -Original Message-
  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
 On
  Behalf Of Stephen Arndt
  Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:25 PM
  To: lute
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: O felici occhi miei
 
 I'm not sure of the original text. A previous respondent seems to
  have
 taken the translation from
 http://www.loscuadernosdejulia.com/2007/02/o-felici-occhi-miei-
  arcadelt
 -and-lute.html, which gives the following:
 O felic' occhi miei, felici voi,
 che sete car' al mio sol
 perche sembianz' havete
 de gliocchi che gli fu si dolc'e rei.
 voi ben voi sete voi,
 voi, voi felici et io,
 io no, che per quetar vostro desio,
 corr' a mirar l'onde mi struggo poi.
 If this is the correct text, I would understand it thus:
 O happy eyes of mine, you happy ones
 who are dear to my sun
 because you bear the semblance
 of the eyes of her that were so sweet and regal.
 You indeed, it is you,
 You, you who (are) happy, and I,
 I (am) not, who to quiet your desire,
 hurry to gaze where I then languish.
 I am not sure, however, about the word rei in line four of the
 original. It is probably a contraction of reali, which is how
 both
  the
 previous respondent and I have translated it, but it might

[LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society

[Francesco Tribioli]

It is also available on microfilm from the LSA.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stewart McCoy
 Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:08 PM
 To: Lute Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
 
 Dear Martyn,
 
 I've found it. The resolution isn't brilliant, but it's better than
 nothing. It's at
 
 http://musickshandmade.com/lute/facbooks/view/17
 
 All the best,
 
 Stewart.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
 Sent: 02 February 2011 09:42
 To: 'lute net'; Denys Stephens
 Cc: lute...@aol.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
 
 
 
Dear Denys,
 
That  the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury facsimile is next on the
 Society's
facsimile publication list is good news indeed - thank you.
 
For those who can't wait,  there was a digital download available on
the internet a couple of years ago and for the most part pretty
readable. I printed off a couple of pages to replace some of my old,
very poor, copy but recall that all pages seemed to be there.  It
 may
still be out there but unfortunately I forgot to note the
source/address - perhaps others know?
 
Of course the problem with it is that there are none of the
 excellent
scholarly notes, concordances etc we have from you and collegues in
 the
Society. So I look forward to this edition.
 
Martyn
 
  From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
  To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Cc: lute...@aol.com
  Date: Tuesday, 1 February, 2011, 20:37
 
Dear Arthur  All,
Further to Chris Goodwin's comments reported below I am glad to be
 able
to
add
that preparatory work on the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury facsimile is
 at
an
advanced stage and is going well. I would hesitate to predict a
completion
date -
as with all Lute Society publications the preparation is carried out
 by
dedicated individuals giving their time to the work involved, and
sometimes
there are unexpected interruptions. But it is definitely the next
planned
Lute Society facsimile, and a publication date within the next year
seems
entirely possible at the moment. When to publish it after the
preparation is
complete will be a committee decision, and as has already been said,
the
Lute Society's ability to produce new facsimilies does depend on
support
for the existing publications.
It's good to see Robert Spencer's name mentioned in the context of
 the
Cherbury manuscript. His vision of making lute manuscripts available
in facsimile is still a major inspiration for the Lute Society's
 work
in that field. We don't have specific plans beyond Cherbury, but I
very much hope that the series will be able to continue, ideally
until every English lute manuscript is in print. That will take
some time, but it's good to hold onto the vision.
Best wishes,
Denys
Denys Stephens
General Editor of Music Editions
The Lute Society
-Original Message-
From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of A. J. Ness
Sent: 01 February 2011 15:08
To: [3]simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
Here's a link to the Society's list of facsimiles, etc., in case
 there
are
other things that interest you. Dd 2.11 isn't listed yet:
[4]http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/catalogue
Some of us have had to wait for 30 years for the Lord Herbert
facsimile.
Bob Spencer had it at the top of his list, but was unsuccessful in
getting
the library to release it for a facsimile. It would be at the top of
 my
list, too. It was quite a frustrating experience for him.  He would
mutter,
We'll just have to wait until he [the librarian] retires.
Dd 2.11 is listed in the pipeline:
[5]http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/pipeline
- Original Message -
From: [6]simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk
To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:39 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
 There have been some queries about the Lute Society's future plans
for
 publishing facsimiles, following the launch of Cambridge Dd.2.11.
Chris
 Goodwin, the Secretary of the Society, tells me that the next on
 the
list
 is Herbert of Cherbury, though Dd.2.11 will have to pay for itself
first -
 which sounds like a good reason to go and buy a copy if you
 haven't
yet
 done so!

 Simon Lambert
 Oxford, England

 --
 Scanned by iCritical.



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 

[LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society

[Francesco Tribioli]

You can put it into a scanner, those for films or diapos, and convert it in
a digital image. Also I think that some libraries may still have devices
that can read and print them at once. Actually that microfilm is not so nice
and the cheap photo scanners are affected by focus issues. The result needs
post processing, but the result is good enough to be read and transcribed
(with some effort). Not easy to play directly from it. Also Herbert had a
quite compressed handwriting, small letters, which doesn't help ...

 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Matteo Turri
 Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:23 PM
 To: Francesco Tribioli
 Cc: Lute Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
 
... and what do you do with a microfilm today? - other than hiding
 it
in the handle of an umbrella and trying to cross the border ... :-)
 
(No, but seriously: what  can you do mith a microilm? Is it possible
 to
print it? To make a pdf out of it?)
M.
On 2 February 2011 23:11, Francesco Tribioli
[1]tribi...@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
 
  It is also available on microfilm from the LSA.
  Francesco
   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of Stewart McCoy
   Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:08 PM
   To: Lute Net
   Subject: [LUTE] Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
  
   Dear Martyn,
  
   I've found it. The resolution isn't brilliant, but it's better
  than
   nothing. It's at
  
   [4]http://musickshandmade.com/lute/facbooks/view/17
  
   All the best,
  
   Stewart.
  
   -Original Message-
   From: [5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [mailto:[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
   Sent: 02 February 2011 09:42
   To: 'lute net'; Denys Stephens
   Cc: [7]lute...@aol.com
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
  
  
  
  Dear Denys,
  
  That  the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury facsimile is next on the
   Society's
  facsimile publication list is good news indeed - thank you.
  
  For those who can't wait,  there was a digital download
  available on
  the internet a couple of years ago and for the most part
 pretty
  readable. I printed off a couple of pages to replace some of
 my
  old,
  very poor, copy but recall that all pages seemed to be there.
  It
   may
  still be out there but unfortunately I forgot to note the
  source/address - perhaps others know?
  
  Of course the problem with it is that there are none of the
   excellent
  scholarly notes, concordances etc we have from you and
  collegues in
   the
  Society. So I look forward to this edition.
  
  Martyn
  
From: Denys Stephens [8]denyssteph...@sky.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
To: 'lute net' [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: [10]lute...@aol.com
Date: Tuesday, 1 February, 2011, 20:37
  
  Dear Arthur  All,
  Further to Chris Goodwin's comments reported below I am glad
 to
  be
   able
  to
  add
  that preparatory work on the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury
 facsimile
  is
   at
  an
  advanced stage and is going well. I would hesitate to predict
 a
  completion
  date -
  as with all Lute Society publications the preparation is
  carried out
   by
  dedicated individuals giving their time to the work involved,
  and
  sometimes
  there are unexpected interruptions. But it is definitely the
  next
  planned
  Lute Society facsimile, and a publication date within the
 next
  year
  seems
  entirely possible at the moment. When to publish it after the
  preparation is
  complete will be a committee decision, and as has already
 been
  said,
  the
  Lute Society's ability to produce new facsimilies does depend
  on
  support
  for the existing publications.
  It's good to see Robert Spencer's name mentioned in the
 context
  of
   the
  Cherbury manuscript. His vision of making lute manuscripts
  available
  in facsimile is still a major inspiration for the Lute
  Society's
   work
  in that field. We don't have specific plans beyond Cherbury,
  but I
  very much hope that the series will be able to continue,
  ideally
  until every English lute manuscript is in print. That will
 take
  some time, but it's good to hold onto the vision

[LUTE] Re: In Italia

[Francesco Tribioli]

Thank you Leonard!

I've phoned to Maurizio Pratola, the lutenist in L'Aquila, many times but
his cell phone doesn't answer. Thanks God he's not in the list of the
victims but might well be that his house went down or is heavily damaged.
The town is for the most part inaccessible as most building downtown are
damaged and at risk of crashing down judging from what they say in the TV
news.

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: Mimmo Peruffo [mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com]
 Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 7:15 AM
 Cc: Lute List
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: In Italia
 
Yes, the town is the same. it was also a very important stringmaking
-place quoted by Le Roy.
There is a lutenist that live in that town. I had no the courage to
phone him just to see  about him.
The situation is very hard.
Mimmo
Roman Turovsky ha scritto:
 
  There is at least one lutenist living in that town.
  RT
  - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams
  [1]arc...@verizon.net
  To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:41 PM
  Subject: [LUTE] In Italia
  Ai nostri soci in Italia--i nostri profondi pensieri sono con voi.
  State
  bene. La citt`a l'Aquila: e la stessa di Marco dall'Aquila?
  Saluti,
  Leonard Williams
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
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--
 
 References
 
1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
5. http://www.avg.com/
6. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
7. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

[LUTE] Re: Tablature notation guidelines

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Tom,
indeed it is built into Fronimo. Just choose MIDI Files as the file
format into the standard Fronimo file open dialog box. In other words, there
is not a specific import command but the import is done by opening the MIDI
file.

Best wishes,

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:05 PM
 To: Lute Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Tablature notation guidelines
 
 Dear Tom,
 
 Alain Veylit's Django software will convert MIDI files to tablature
 automatically.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 08 December 2008 20:16
 To: List LUTELIST; howard posner
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
 
   One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a
 MIDI
 file and it will notate it
 automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from
 scratch).
   This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
 
 Tom
 Tom Draughon
 Heartistry Music
 http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
 714  9th Avenue West
 Ashland, WI  54806
 715-682-9362
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute concert

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Even recordings that are unprocessed are processed (unbeknownst by
 the original engineer) by  goofballs at the pressing plant who don't
 know how the machines work.
This is the big problem... people are used to listen to edited recording and
are not aware of this. So when they attend a concert and hear to the real
thing, they are disconcerted and disappointed. The same holds for
harpsichord concerts. Almost all the recordings has the harpsichord boosted
up to the level of a gran coda piano while in the reality it's very soft and
melting into the string orchestra, especially if the concert is done in a
huge theater 4-5 times larger then what the instrument was built to
effectively work into.

Aren't we supposed to be the *paladins* of HIP (no flame war please 8^)) why
many of the people that actually do recordings accept the lute is boosted
up, giving a false idea to the listeners of what the instrument realy is?

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: copy

[Francesco Tribioli]

You can find the music that was in the internet lute society at this
address:

http://www.gerbode.net/

Have fun!

Francesco
 

 -Original Message-
 From: hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:56 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] copy
 
 anyway...what is copywrighted and what not? I had noticed 
 that the internet lute society is dead and I didn't 
 understand why. I think it was a great source for all sorts 
 of lute players especially beginers or intermediate level 
 (even advanced). Civiol's site is really great. And there are 
 a lot of pieces which are played on many great recordings, 
 and are superbly edited. ANd there are a few sites very 
 interesting with lute tablatures including the genial G. 
 Bookshelf. I think that musical notes begin to be important 
 only when there are a lot of recordings of it and concerts, 
 till then are obscure and non important...my opinion!
   I think a lot about the lute players from Renaissance and 
 Baroque with their books writen by their own hand, I have a 
 few facsimiles, they were playing a very clear repertory, for 
 us is very hard because we have so many things...I have 
 noticed a very interesting thing: some of the greatest lute 
 players in the world are using tablatures transcribed by 
 their own hand, I've try to do this but is very hard to have 
 a nice writing on tablature, but I like the idea in the sense 
 of learning the piece before taking up the lute, and also 
 because all the music in every piece really pass through your 
 fingers. I think the most beautifull thing is that every lute 
 player can go to every library where there are lute 
 tablatures and to copy it by hand, this I would like to do 
 very much, to see the original, to feel it and to make my own 
 version of every one of it.
 

 -
 Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell?
  Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
 --
 
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[LUTE] Re: nylgut tensions

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Talking about Nylgut, does everybody calculate tensions as for gut or
 do
 they add a little more (i.e. 0.40 gut = 0.42 Nylgut)
 Sometimes the tensions with Nylgut can feel a little slack to me
 
 Nigel
Yes, it's better to add a little bit to the gauge. Nylgut stretches a lot
before stabilizing and the final gauge is smaller than the nominal one.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: ebony etc

[Francesco Tribioli]

Anthony and Rob,
Martin recently made a 6c for me with a walnut body and I can say
that it sounds very well (it's beautiful too). I can feel the bowl vibrating
against my stomach when I play, much more than other lutes I have and had,
so I wouldn't say it absorbs resonance, but perhaps it participates more
than other woods to the final sound. Walnut is very elastic and bends very
well even if it's quite a hard wood. Perhaps it's used for guns more for its
tenacity and elasticity, which can absorb blows without cracking, than for
killing resonance which surely is not a problem for that use. For the same
reasons for example, elasticity and easy bending, it is used in static naval
modeling to build the hulls. Of course, to follow a pseudo scientific method
one should build two identical instruments with different body woods to
compare the sound, if it was just possible to build two really identical
lutes. I have only this 6c and my impression cannot be more precise. Surely
it doesn't seem to me the acoustic signature of the walnut body was a
problem for my instrument.

Francesco

 Rob
   I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that 
 could be excellent. However, there was some difference of 
 opinion on the guitar construction site, as to whether walnut 
 sounded well or not.  
 Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut 
 guitars, others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle 
 buts, it is because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. 
 They seemed to claim this was because it is an oily wood, as 
 they associated it with teak, which they also claimed 
 resonates poorly.
 I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive 
 wood. If the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways 
 of removing it, and some walnut-types might be less oily;
   so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the 
 tree is used would also be very significant. Certainly, the 
 only way to be sure is to experiment.
 Regards
 Anthony
 
 
 Le 15 févr. 07 à 16:27, Rob Dorsey a écrit :
 
  Anthony,
 
  No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My 
  point is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what 
  difference does it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here 
  and available now, where we live, and could make nice 
 instruments of 
  perhaps lower cost whilst losing nothing in acoustics or 
 appearance. 
  In fact it might be nicer than some historically correct woods.
 
  One builder's opinion. I could be wrong.
 
  Rob Dorsey
  http://RobDorsey.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM
  To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd
  Cc: Lute Net
  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc
 
  Rob et al
  Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if 
  there aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did 
  exist, with none having survived.
  Regards
  Anthony
  Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit :
 
  Hi All,
 
  I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut 
 for lutes as 
  a body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the 
  birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I 
 imagine a walnut 
  body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as 
 being lovely.
  There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure 
 so as to 
  provide a pallet of choices from which the client and 
 builder might 
  choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept.
  Perhaps before LSA next year.
 
  Best,
  Rob Dorsey
  http://RobDorsey.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM
  To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net
  Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc
 
  Martin
 
 As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where
  guitar
  makers are raising the same questions as you are. They 
 appear to be 
  looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood.
 
  I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these.
 
  However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock 
  wood to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly 
  Figured Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood
 
  http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm
 
  Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on 
 persimmon 
  ( a local American ebony-type) :
 
  Best
 
  Anthony
 
  http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html
 
  The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved 
 from black 
  walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than 
  the ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely 
 easier to find.
  The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and 
 sealing the 
  wood, but no varnish was applied.
 
  However,  there is a problem with walnut according to the 
 following :
 
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/
  

[LUTE] Re: jane pickering MS

[Francesco Tribioli]

A microfilm of the Jane Pickering manuscript is available from the LSA.

Ciao

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: Manolo Laguillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:17 AM
 To: LUTELIST
 Subject: [LUTE] jane pickering MS
 
 Good morning, lutelisters,
 
 - where can I find more from the Jane Pickeringe's lute book, 
 apart from the pieces available in the Django web page?
 
 - has Jane Pickeringe's MS been published elsewhere? I can't 
 find it, so perhaps the answer is no...
 
 Thank you very much, and have a nice week beginning!
 
 Saludos from Barcelona,
 
 Manolo Laguillo
 
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[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Toyohiko was at the LSA seminar in Cleveland this past 
 summer, and he is proof that this can be done... a great 
 sound, very projective.  He does this in part with lower 
 tension of the strings... Maybe as low as 2.3 to
 2.5 Kg per string.  With a slacker string, it is not too 
 bright.  As well, it lowers the overall tension on the 
 instrument,  is healthier for the longevity of the lute.  He 
 can get color characteristics ranging from brittle to sweet 
 without moving his hand position.  Yes, he can get a great 
 sound in the practice room.
I suppose, then, he tuned his baroque lute a tone or more below the so
called standard a=415Hz, hasn't him? Chanterelles cannot be thinner of
0.38mm, more or less, so the only way I see to have a lower the tension is
to use a lower pitch.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live

[Francesco Tribioli]

Have you had any good result with so thin strings? Whenever I've tried a
0.38 it didn't last more that a few playing hours (3-4 hours). I guess that
a 0.36 is even more prone to hairs and breakage. Perhaps a couple of hours
can be enough for a concert, but...

Francesco

  called standard a=415Hz, hasn't him? Chanterelles cannot 
 be thinner 
  of 0.38mm, more or less,
 
  0.36 by Universale and Kathedrale are strong enough for 
 concert life 
  these days.
 
 As are Mimmo's new trebles, by the way.
 
 David 



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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Francesco Tribioli]

 I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in 
 Germany have already exceeded 30.
 RT 
There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too.
Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang by
Sting with the advise of buying the CD in the best CD shops.
This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music
and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one knows
who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but
the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD
like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by
specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is
something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the
music.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Francesco Tribioli]

 the modern world.  Otherwise, what is the point of the 
 20th-century lute revival?  Simply to amass information for 
Passing over your easy irony and attacks to the HIP police 8^), in my
opinion, the point is to play music in a way that is the closest possible to
the way it might have sounded, for a number of reasons related to music of
course, not to some kind of blind decision. Otherwise it would be pointless
to try to understand how the ancient lutenists played, to try to use the
strings they used and so on. Let's pick up a galute, amplify it and go
around saying it's a lute and that what we are playing is lute music. If
this is ok for you, ok then, there is no reason to discuss anymore.
What is the point of the 20th century revival of gamba? Or of the
baroque oboe when there is the modern one which is much more in tune? Or
traversiere or any other of the ancient instruments. Do you think that the
players of these instruments are so worried about the survival of them? I
don't think so, they simply play them trying to follow the original practice
and try to do it well and this is the best guarantee of their survival. It
seems to me there is a sort of feeling of inferiority in the lute world that
doesn't seem to belong to other instrument players, as if we should always
apologize or justify us for playing an ancient instrument with its own
technique. It seems that to play the old way and the old lute music in a
decent way would be the death of the lute. See, if this is true and really
the survival of the lute is something that cares to him, why Sting  C.
didn't *compose* new music for it? It would have been a wonderful idea and
really a way to promote the instrument without any need to sell for
authentic and the right way something that is nothing different than a
bad performance of ancient music.

 its own sake?  Or satisfy the whims of a few heads-in- 
 the-sand purists?  Perhaps, but if Sting can bring the lute 
About the head in the sand I would say that if one thinks that the Sting CD
is well performed than really he has the head in the sand as his hears seem
to work so and so... To sing out of tune or out of tempo is wrong, HIP or
not HIP.

 to a wider audience than we can, then he has succeeded where 
 we have failed.
The point is that he is bringing to a wide audience music that in my opinion
sounds bad because it's badly performed, with some sort of hybrid
instruments and hybrid technique and poor vocal technique. As he has access
to a lot more people than any of the professional lutenists in the world,
all those people listening at his CD will get a distorted idea of what early
music is. I'm not sure this will be a good service to the lute world and
that the curiosity it will spin in some of the listeners will be prevalent.

Taco said:

 As long as there is a niche for a group of people sharing their
sensitivity for a better dowland performance or a 'slow food' restaurant, I
really don't mind.

and me too. 8^)

All the best

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hello Stephen,
 
 I'm not certain what you meant by that last statement.  If 
 you mean that no curiosity will be generated because of the 
 'bad sound/music', or maybe you meant that less curiosity 
 will be generated than if the sound/music was 'good':  I will 
 politely disagree. 
What I wanted to say is that I'm not sure that the balance between the
positive aspect of all this (the curiosity for the Dowland music that surely
this CD will produce in some listeners) and the negative aspect (what I
called the distorted idea it gives of ancient music) is toward the
positive side.

 It's been said, There's no such thing as bad publicity.

 
 If Sting arouses curiosity, it will mostly be curiosity among 
 people who have never heard of the lute.  Some of those 
 people will be intrigued enough to search for more lute 
 music, either in music shops or on the internet.  What will 
 they find?  More music exactly like what Sting has done?  Or 
 something closer to what people on this list consider 
 authentic lute music.
Yes, or they might think that it sounds very bad and will never buy a lute
CD anymore. Or they might be so much used to that way of performing this
music to think that is the real way to do and will reject authentic lute
music as boring and uninspiring. If this CD sells very well, as it seems,
there might be some other rock musician that may follow Sting in this path
(I don't think so but, who knows, money is money) and that way of performing
might be the way people will expect for this music.

 I was intrigued with the lute when I heard the Lachrimae 
 Antiquae cut from Dances of Dowland by Julian Bream, 
 Lutenist.  I recorded the LP from my local public library 
 onto cassette tape.  I didn't copy the notes on the 
 recording's jacket, so I don't know exactly what instrument 
 Mr Bream was playing.
I listened the lute the first time through the Ragossnig LPs. Played with
the nails I guess and not very HIP for what we know now but at the time very
good and evocative.

 Listening to the cassette tape now, I'm wondering if Mr Bream 
 was playing with nails, on nylon strings, on a guitar in lute 
 tuning.  
 Not very HIP to lutenists if that is indeed the case.  Or 
 maybe his playing was miked to closely.  Who knows?
 
 But it was Mr Bream's recording (and his Lute Music of 
 Dowland recording, also copied to cassette tape from a public 
 library LP) that brought me to the lute (over a decade later 
 after making those cassette recordings) when I decided to 
 return to 'personal' music (making music by and for myself).  
 I researched the lute on the internet and found this list, 
 among other resources.
That's all right, but in any case you had access to very good performance
and to a very good and inspiring musician. Maybe the instrument wasn't right
but the music was played very well.

 I'm now playing a Renaissance G Lute, double gut strung in 
 unison on 1, 2, and 3, double gut strung octave on 4, 5, and 
 6, in quarter comma meantone temperament, with A=415Hz, and 
 thumb out.  Quite a different sound from Mr Bream's recordings.
 
 Thanks to Mr Bream, my soul is singing again.  No one else 
 may ever hear me play, but I don't care.  I have come home to 
 the lute and it's mellow, intimate sound.
 
 You can be certain that people hearing Sting's CD will be 
 visiting this list at some time.
 
 Perhaps strongly critiquing Sting will discourage these 
 curious searchers from the lute and the lute community.  
 Perhaps it would be wiser to welcome Sting's efforts, welcome 
 the publicity, and most certainly welcome the curious searchers.
Who knows... It might be and I don't pretend to be right. We will see. 

Best regards,

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Problems opening Fronimo files

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Stephen,
there was in the past a problem with some browsers (I don't remember
which browser actually) that misrecognised the content of a Fronimo file and
tried to adjust it adding or removing carriage returns. I don't know if
this is the case though, lately no one complained anymore about this. Try to
download one of the zipped files available from the Fronimo Yahoo group and
see if you can open the files inside.
In any case I guess the right place to ask for this things is the
Yahoo Fronimo group itself.

All the best,

Francesco

 Dear Lutenetters,
 
 When I go to the Yahoo Fronimo Group and download one of the 
 tablature files, I get the message Unexpected File Format 
 when I attempt to open the file. I have Fronimo 3 and can 
 still open files previously saved to my hard drive, just not 
 the ones I am saving now. Can Francesco or anyone else tell 
 me what the problem is and how to fix it?
 
 Many thanks in advance!
 
 Stephen Arndt
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[LUTE] Re: Sting? - Lute awareness?- Fantasy instrument - 30 Years of EM

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Sting/Karamazov have nothing to be embarassed about. Some of 
 my favorite CD's are of actors singing, like Gizela May, Nis 
 Bank-Mikkelsen, Fred Aackestroem, Martin Bagge, Marjana Sadovska etc.
 S/K sound perfectly in place.
 RT

Not embarrassed? They both should flee away for the shame!

It's all incredibly bad. His voice is amazingly out of place in this
repertoire and often slightly out of tune. He makes huge use of portamento,
something that even Carreras would blame in this music. The lute sounds
badly and sometimes doesn't go together with the voice, and what about the
rock like improvisation of the lute at the end of the first stanza of Can
she excuse? And what to say of the lute duets and solos if not just: ARRGH??


Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Dear Francesco and All:
  Isn't there an inventory of the Maler workshop on his death 
 indicating several hundred lutes in various stages of 
 construction? That would indicate a lute every few days. 
 Perhaps his was not a typical operation and probably employed 
 many masters and apprentices, but it does indicate that they 
 churned them out at a pretty steady pace -- probably much 
 faster than today's makers. No offense intended! 8^)
Thanks. Well, to partial defense of our luthiers there is that we ask them
all sort of veneereing and decorations while if one looks at the original
lutes in the museums in most cases can see how imprecisely the rosette was
cut and how much crude is sometimes the construction. We want lutes that in
the past were built only for princes and earls. On the other hand they
hadn't the technology that our luthiers can access...

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?

[Francesco Tribioli]

 ... On the other hand it could just be another example of the 
 old makers working very quickly and even sloppily, taking 
Just a curiosity... Has anyone an idea of how big might have been the
production rate of a lute builder workshop? How much was the lute diffused
in that time population? I guess it was an expensive instrument at the time,
even the plainer lute, surely much more expensive than it's nowadays a
common guitar...

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?

[Francesco Tribioli]

I would say that the direction of the plucking should be almost irrelevant.
The bridge represents a node of the wave while the antinodes (where the mass
of the string moves) is in the middle of the string (if you are not playing
harmonics otherwise there are more nodes and antinodes but always a node at
the bridge and one at the nut). So there shouldn't be a relevant effect due
to the orientation of the plan in which the strings vibrates because at the
bridge there is no transversal string movement, in the ideal case.
So, what does actually make the sound? The way the pull of the
string on the bridge changes when the string vibrates and the way the top
and the bridge react to it. When vibrating, in the instant when the string
is stressed (in a curved shape to say so) there is the maximum pull on the
bridge, in the instant when it's straight it's again in the equilibrium
position and the pull is the same pull of the string at rest. Of course the
picture is much more complicated as the string envelope is not a simple
sinusoid but the sum of the many sinusoids, which are the harmonics, that
produces the timbre of the instrument. As anyone knows one can control the
power spectrum of the harmonics plucking the strings in different positions
with respect to the bridge.
If the top was perfectly rigid you wouldn't hear any relevant sound,
just the sound produced by the turbulence produced in the air by the moving
string. On the contrary the whole which consists of the bridge, the top and
the chains is a complex system of springs and masses. Simplifying, one can
consider the top as a foil of some uniform and elastic material. At some
height from the top there is the bridge hole where the string is tied. In
rest conditions the string pulls the top of the bridge which tends to rotate
toward the nut to ease the pull. This is very important. If the hole was
done just over the top the bridge would not rotate. There wouldn't be a
significant torque but only a pull parallel to the top which couldn't create
any oscillation in the top itself. The higher the holes over the top the
higher is the torque which the strings apply to the bridge. To counteract
this torque the top bends because it's solidly glued to the bridge. You can
easily see on your lutes that the part of the top which is in front of the
bridge is a little bit curved inside the lute and the contrary is for the
part of the top behind the bridge. When you remove the strings the top tends
to go back in a plane shape. This is one of the reason for which is
advisable to change one string at once, that is to maintain the top under a
constant tension.
Well, you have got the picture: when the strings vibrate, the torque
it applies to the bridge changes periodically and so the top curves more or
less to counteract the extra torque. The weight of the bridge is important
too as it's a moving mass which interacts with the oscillations of the top.
Also the rotation of the bridge interacts with the string itself being a
movable point instead of a fixed one as the nut is. The pull of the string
is very important. If one uses strings too heavy for the thickness of the
top, the bend of the top is so strong that the amplitude of the oscillation
is smaller: the bridge has not enough freedom to oscillate. The sound decays
soon and it's percussive. If the strings are too light on the contrary there
is not enough strength involved and you get a too weak even if resonating
sound. Of course there is a quite ample range between the two extremes.
The chains are very important not only to avoid the collapse of the
top but mostly to modulate the way the top oscillates. In fact to make the
top more rigid against the torque applied by the bridge the chains should be
parallel to the strings but they are on the contrary almost all
perpendicular to the strings and perpendicular to the oscillations mode of
the top. Just a few chains near the bridge are shaped differently. The other
chains are weights which makes more difficult to the top to oscillate where
they are, so they let the oscillation modes which have the nodes in
correspondence of their position to resonate freely and dump the modes which
have the antinodes there. Also they add mass to the top and so probably
prolongs the oscillation which otherwise would be dumped soon.
When I went to collect the new marvelous 6c that Martin Shepherd
built me, he showed me that the two main chains under a Renaissance top
where not parallel but slightly angled. I think that this was done to
counterbalance the effect of reinforcement of the oscillating modes which
have the nodes where the bars are, making different part of the top
responding better to different frequencies.

Said this (I hope it isn't just a mountain of baloney 8^))), I think there
is actually a difference if one plucks inside the lute or semi parallel to
the top, but I think it has more to do with the attack of the finger to the
strings, the 

[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano

[Francesco Tribioli]

 - Original Message -
 From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 am
 Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano
 
  Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18.  What will you 
 be doing?
Sorry, my birthday is Jan. 23... I guess I'll drink a glass of Prosecco when
the time will arrive

Francesco



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[LUTE] Another book on eBay

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hello again,
if you are interested check also this other book on eBay, sold by
Allan too:

a very nice copy of The Lute and Its Music A drop of coffee stain on the
front. All in French from CNRS

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=7410013786

Francesco



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[LUTE] LSA and LS publications on eBay

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear all,
I'm sending this on behalf of my friend Allan Alexander which is
temporary out of the list. He is selling various publications on eBay
because almost ready to move in a new house.

Here it is the list:

19 Quarterly Lute Society of America editions, Quarterlies Volume XXIX, No 1
2 3 4, Volume XXX No 1, Volume XXXIII No 1  2, No 4, XXXIV No 1 2 XXXVII No
1 2 3  4, XXXVIII, No 1, 2  3, 4  Vollume XXXIX No 1 XXXIX No 2, 4, 
No 1 

Early Music Magazine Sprint 96 Featuring the article The Lute Awakes 

1982 Journal The Lute UK Volume 12 part I 

Journal of the lute society of America 1977, 2000, 1998, 

Lute Society Magazine (UK) No 59 

Lute Society Editions LSA IX Gautier 8 Courantes (in renaissance tuning) 

LSA VI Dances for Matthaeus Waissels's Lautenbuch (1592) 

Lute Society Newsletter April 1979, Jan 1979, May 1980, Aug 1980, Nov 1980,
Feb 1981, Nov 1981, Feb 1982, May 1983, Aug 1983 

Lute News, the Lute Society Magazine No 49 March 1999 England. 

The reference on eBay is
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lute-Society-Journals-Newsletter-Quarterly-and-More_W0QQ
itemZ7409774707QQcategoryZ157QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (one
single line)

Cheers,

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Joulupukki - Santa C. Was: Arto...

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Of course he must exist, there are even videos showing him 
 speaking!!
Of course! And he's drinking Coke all the day... 8^( Nah... I prefer to
believe to the Befana.

For all you that don't live in Italy, she is a very old and proverbially
hugly woman riding a broom in the nightly winter skies, dressed of very old
and dusty clothes. She would seem a witch but she has a tender heart and the
6th of January of every year she puts small sweets or pieces of coal, for
the good and bad children, in the stokes that any child hangs to the chimey
(of course, she uses chimeys to enter the houses as every respectable
witch!). When I was a child my parents always prepared an orange and a slice
of bread on the cookie table so that the poor Befana that rides all the
night in the cold could rest a little bit and regain strenght for her looong
flight (well, all in all she has to visit so many houses...). The morning
after when I woke up and run as a lightning to look into the stokes I've
always found the bread and the orange eaten. This is the proven proof that
she actually exist, isn't it?? 8^))

Santa or Befana fans... It's not important, the important is to remain able
to dream as a child even if we are no more children. The important is to
hope and believe that something of beutiful, and peaceful and good actually
*can* exist, even if it seems a silly tail especially in these gloomy years!

My best wishes to all you, my fellow dreamers, for a pleasant Christmas
holiday with your family and friends and a very happy and prosperous 2006!

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: UnHIP overspun strings.

[Francesco Tribioli]

For me the gut basses are the *real* reason to play with gut strings.

I can bear high strings in nylon, even carbon chanterelle, the difference is
not so big, but I really don't bear overspun basses, especially for
Reinassance music but I would say for all music expect late Baroque. Their
overboosted volume, the guitar like timbre so different from that of the
higher courses and the long sustain just disrupt the tonal balance of the
lute. Listen to the Dowland or Bach by Jacob Lindberg, recorded with the
Mimmo's loaded basses, for an example of perfect tonal balance (IMHO of
course)

Francesco

 Maybe it is because the overspun bass strings sound so bloody 
 good compared to the altenitives.  It's nice to have the 
 clarity and sustain in the bass range instead of a thud.  Of 
 course I know there are those who don't like the overspun 
 bass strings just for the reasons you have mentioned.  It is 
 not too dificult to deaden the bass response when necessary 
 with overspuns, as opposed to just allowing it to fade out 
 naturally as is the practice of some with more traditional strings.
 
 Vance Wood.



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[LUTE] R: g-string blues

[Francesco Tribioli]

 So, what's the moral? Sh$t happens, strings do break. Could I 
 have avoided this? Of course, I was stubborn and used 0.40mm 
 first strings. 0.38mm would have been better because of the 
 lower tension. Secondly, I was a miser to use up my supply of 
Not at all. As many times it was pointed out, the thickness of a string
doesn't affect the breaking point. That is different gut strings will break
at the same tuning pitch, given a constant vibrating length, more or less
independently of their gauge. It is a thing that can be demonstrated
mathematically and proved empirically. On the contrary I would say that
perhaps a tiny string is even more delicate and more easy to break. If the
tuning pitch was a=440Hz I guess the problem is that 62cm is quite a long
vibrating length for a lute tuned in g. A safe length for gut strung lutes
tuned in g at 440Hz pitch is around 59-60cm. With this measure a gut
chanterelle can last 2-3 weeks in normal conditions.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Playing renaissance (7, (fwd)

[Francesco Tribioli]

 For that matter, how about taking the strings off.  This 
 would mean that when you put them on again they would take a 
 while to come up to tension, but it means that a beginner 
 would not be confused by all those extra strings, if the 
 beginner was playing 6 course music.
 
  When I started baroque lute I took off the 12 and 13th 
 courses for that reason.
 
   Wayne
Removing 2 courses on a total of 13 doesn't harm perhaps, but on a 10c to
remove 4 courses means that almost half of the strings would miss. This
would mean a strongly asymmetric stress on the bridge and consequently on
the top. It might eventually warp and the experiment could damage
permanently the lute

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: New Fronimo 3 mirror

[Francesco Tribioli]

 -Original Message-
 From: jim abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:19 PM
 To: Lute Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Fronimo 3 mirror
 
 Once again, does not work. File not found.
 
Now it is everything ok...

Francesco



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[LUTE] Fronimo 3 released

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear all,
sorry for sending a message that might be a little bit contrary to
the netiquette. I just hope that you might be interested and you will
forgive me.
As the members of the Fronimo Yahoo group already know, the new main
release of Fronimo is ready. Anyone interested can download the installation
file, which as usual contains the demo version completely functional beside
the saving commands. It is available in the Fronimo group file area and at
http://marincola.free.fr/fronimo-3_0.exe. Many thanks to Federico Marincola
for hosting it.
This is a list of the changes in the 3.0 release in sparse order:

- Added support for WinXP desktop styles
- MIDI file import in tablature and notation. A new command to move notes
from a layer to another one is provided, in order to fix MIDI import errors
- Transposition of tablature in different keys and tunings
- Automatic transcription from tablature to notation and from notation to
tablature
- All the spacing system has been rewritten for a simpler and better
alignment when following the modern standards
- Added full page editing mode
- Added automatic generation of table of contents
- Added preface and postscript with editing features as in WordPad but
extended. It is possible to embed pictures and other objects inside the text
- Added advanced editing feature for text in front and at the end of each
section
- Added advanced editing feature to design a cover page for the whole
document
- Added a command to save the selected measures on the clipboard for a fast
embedding in other documents
- Added the possibility to embed Fronimo objects inside other document
formats and to edit those objects in place
- Lyrics are now edited on page
- It is now possible to add a picture in front of staves
- Reworked the way the page layout is modified. Now the user can move the
measures from one system to another and the choice is always preserved,
unless extreme cases as page format changes and similar happens or until the
user chooses to reset the default
- Added two commands to set the number of systems per page or to space them
evenly in the page
- Changed the way the printer preferences and page margins are changed
- Added a command to put a flag on the first tablature sign of each measure
- Substituted the Edit Font of the Options menu with a simpler couple of
zoom button on the main toolbar
- Custom fonts are now more compatible with the TrueType standard and have
been expanded and revised
- Now the flourish and the meter signs are in the same style of the custom
fonts
- Rearranged the options in the dialog boxes in a more logical way. Added
two shortcuts to the most used option pages
- A better, visual way, to select flag styles and staves' group brackets
- Added a command to set the equivalence between the tablature flags and
their mensural value
- Added a new text box, named subtitle, that will be printed under the
main piece title, with its own font. Special section titles can be entered
by editing the text at beinning of section which can 
replace the standard titles
- Added new meter signs for renaissance music
- The position of measure text can now be set relatively to the left measure
bar or to any chord or note inside it.
- The font of the measure text can be changed for each string added
- Slashes, pins and brackets can now be put on the page more accurately and
the position of both their extremes can be changed later
- A new way to move inside a document with many sections through a set of
labels at the bottom of the edit window, one per section. Also there is a
new command to go to a specific section
- More keyboard shortcuts
- A new HTML style help file. Help boxes can be shown for each dialog box
control right clicking on it
- Many options are now specific of each sections and most of them can be
applied at once to all the sections in a document
- Many other small improvements here and there

Beside all this, localised interface are now available in French, German and
Italian.

Please contact me if you want more details or info.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Changed location for Fronimo

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear all,
Federico has moved the Fronimo 3 files to a faster server. The easy
way to reach them is from to the home page of Federico
(http://www.marincola.com), which is by the way worth a visit by itself,
following the link Software.

Francesco



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[LUTE] Re: Microfilm

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Sandy,
I've used a scanner but it was not exactly straightforward.
Scanners work very well with color films but not as well with b/w
films. The reason seems to be that the color films are all transparent while
the b/w are an agglomerate of very small crystals, some transparent some
opaque. This may create interference problems with the discrete structure of
the CCD device in the scanners.
The first attempts I did with my high resolution scanner (bought
just for this job) were discouraging. I put the film parallel to the long
side of the A4 plane because this gave me the possibility to scan many
photograms at once. Unfortunately in 95% of the cases what I got was a
totally black image or one cluttered with very dark parallel stripes. In the
other 5% of the cases I got a perfect image. It seemed to depend on the
position of the film on the plane. I guess the interference was really the
reason for this. Of course it was impossible to scan a whole microfilm with
a single good scan in 2-3 afternoons.
Fortunately I've got the solution from my friend lutenist Gianluca
which had managed to scan the films before. He used to scan putting the film
parallel to the short side of the plane so parallel to the moving device of
the scanner. It worked very well for me too even if I had to scan a single
page at once.

Francesco

 In the old days (70s) one could take a roll of microfilm to 
 your local xerox shop and for a tidy sum they would print it 
 all out and even bind it for you, and presto, your own facsimile.
 What do people do today?  I have heard that some scanners 
 allow you to scan it in and then print it out, but they all 
 seem to just do single slides.
 The only microfilm to paper machines I have found are very expensive.
 All suggestions much appreciated.  Thank you.
 
 Sandy



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[LUTE] RE: AW: Re: V. Galilei

[Francesco Tribioli]

Oh, no... That is my tablature editor program. There is a whole scan of Il
Fronimo in PDF or JPEG somewhere but I don't remember where...

Francesco

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] AW: Re: V. Galilei
 
 If I recall correctly you will find the complete Il Fronimo 
 on the Fronimo site of Francesco Tribioli.
 
 Best wishes
 Thomas
 
 
 Ariel,
 
 My message to you was returned.  What is the source? I've 
 forgotten.  
 Do you mean the duet(s?) by B.M. Gentleman? Sakudos, Arthur.
   - Original Message -
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:29 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] V. Galilei
 
 
   Dear list,
 
 
   I=E2?Tm looking for a digital edition of V. Galilei=E2?Ts 
 lute duets 
 (all of them, if possible), in any format.
   I=E2?Tve got the music in printed versions, but I=E2?Tll 
 need to edit 
 a couple of things, and if I could avoid transcribing 
 everything from 0 
 it would be great. I=E2?Td really appreciate your help.
   Thanks in advance.
   Saludos from Seville,
   Ariel.
 
 
 
 
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   a
 href=http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html;
 http://ww
 w.cs.dar tmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html/a
 
 --
 
 

[LUTE] R: Re: What you say lingers on...

[Francesco Tribioli]

 As Russians say Words written with a pen cannot be deleted 
 by an axe
 RT 

As the Romans (not many RTs... the inhabitants of ancient Rome 8^))) said
even before:

Verba volant, scripta manent.

Francesco



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RE: Duets in guitar notation?

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Dear Mathias,
 
 I think your initial question was correct.  I only have a 
 demo version of Fronimo, but I have not found a way of 
 tranforming a tab staff into a notation staff.  As Alain 
 said, this can be done automatically in Django, and probably  
 in the other notation based programs mentioned in earlier 
 posts, however (un)satisfactory the results.  Francesco will 
 probably be able to help you on either the current or the 
 next version of Fronimo.
The transcription tab-notation and notation-tab (as well midi file input,
tab transpositions etc.) is in the next version of Fronimo that will be
available the first week of September. It's completed but I'm taking some
extra time searching for bugs.

Francesco



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R: Details

[Francesco Tribioli]

This kind of messages with Details subject, Here is the file. body and
an attached .pif or .scr or .exe file are known mail worms (Netsky or Bagle,
I don't remember exactly, but I've read their description just today). If
one opens the attachment the virus installs itself in his mailer program and
starts replicating itself sending the same virus message to all the e-mail
address it founds in the computer. Often the sender of these messages is
faked. So it may be that someone have got the virus and sends out messages
using the known addresses as faked senders.
I sometimes receive e-mail message on my account that appears to
have been sent from my own account and that obviously I never sent. A check
of the messages header details shows that they actually never originates
from my computer, they just use my addres that is publicly available in many
web pages and inside teh computers of people that corresponded with me. SMTP
protocol, that we use to send e-mail, was unfortunately developed when the
Internet was populated just by a group of scientists and there was no need
to implement strict autentication in the mail protocol. It's very easy to
send messages disguising himself for another identity.
Fortunately the list cuts the attachments so we are protected by
these menaces, at least for what attains messages coming from it.

Best wishes,

Francesco

 -Messaggio originale-
 Da: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Inviato: martedì 7 giugno 2005 23.42
 A: Lute Net
 Oggetto: Details
 
 Dear Richard et al,
 
 I did not send the message below. Nor did I send an 
 attachment, which seems to have been intercepted by Dartmouth 
 College's anti-attachment software. It is worrying. Maybe 
 Wayne can explain what is going on.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:55 PM
 Subject: Re: Details
 
 
  Here is the file.
 
  --
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at 
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

R: Which meantone temperament to use on fixed fret instruments?

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hello Dana,

 A few years ago I had brief conversation with Pat O'Brian on 
 the subject of temperament for fixed fret instruments, as I 
 recall he, and others he plays with, were exploring 1/6 comma 
 meantone.
 
 I find some online information that should enable me to do 
 the calculations for whatever form of meantone (eg, 1/4 
 comma, 1/6 comma...), but seeing that which one to use seems 
 to be undecided, I must assume that my own reluctance to 
 follow the debate has left me ignorant, so I ask the list, is 
 there some modern consensus of what is a 'good' temperament 
 for elizabethan/jacobean repertoire?
 --
 Dana Emery

my 2 cents about what is my experience. I've played a couple of
years with a 1/5 comma temperament and now switched to 1/6 of comma.
First of all a couple of words of the setting I've chosen. There are
two position of some frets that one can choose, one closer to the nut with
respect with the equal temperament, and the other more towards the body of
the lute. The first one gives better sharp notes and the second better flat
notes. I've found that for most chords the first position works better. It
gives a good F# and C# at the 4th fret, at the expenses of the B flat on the
first course, and gives a good G# on the 6th course for the E major chord.
For the first fret on the contrary I prefer the second position in order to
have a good B flat and a good E flat at the expenses of the F# which is
needed by the D major chord in the caabc form but not so frequently. Also it
would be very difficult to tie it tightly in the other position.
I've found the 1/5 of comma to be a somewhat extreme temperament. In
some keys it sounds very, very well but it's too much problematic in other
situations. Also it gives some technical problems because the frets are too
much displaced from a regularly spaced position. For example there is too
little space between the 3rd and 4th fret which gives problems in taking the
A major chord (at least with my finger tips which are not so tiny). Also
it's difficult to tune as some compromises must be taken. Moving the frets
unfortunately affects not only the sharp and flat notes but also the natural
ones on different courses as for example the natural E on the 5th course.
Tuning a lute set in this way is like trying to cover a bed with a too short
blanket. I've found convenient to put some frets slightly slanted, to
correct for the different stretching ratio of the bass strings, especially
with the gut strings that I use, and to slightly correct some of the most
used natural notes.
Lately I've set my lute to a 1/6 comma temperament and for now I'm
very happy with it. It's easier to tune well the lute, easier to play and it
sounds very well in more keys. It sounds better in my opinion, as it
corrects some thirds without affecting to much the natural notes, and is
more versatile. Again I've privileged the sharp notes on all the frets
beside the first one.
Many years ago I've also tried the fret positions suggested by
Dowland in the Variations of Lute Lessons but with little satisfaction. It's
true that at the time I was a lot worse in my playing so my judgment very
easily could have been wrong. Anyone uses it with success?

Anyway all this is ok provided that you can manage to tune very well
the little beast and that it remains in tune for more than a couple of
pieces which happens quite seldom to me 8^))

Francesco



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RE: Ornamentation of Delacourt Pavin

[Francesco Tribioli]

 BTW  I re-typed this piece in Fronimo, but could not find a 
 dot to go before a note.  I could place a dot under (first 
 finger RH), or dot after, (which may mean something entirely 
 different).  The only alternative was to print it out and 
 write these dots in by hand.
The ornamentation dots can be put to the left or to the right of each letter
by using the button with the horizontal red arrows, in the same ornaments
page of the note attributes box.

Francesco



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RE: Willams Concert

[Francesco Tribioli]

  I have yet to open any of your cheesy products,  
 I'm not about to start now.
 Michael Thames
 www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com

Just because I like logic: how do you know they are cheesy if you have never
opened one of them? 8^)

Francesco



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R: Lute Editing Programmes

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Fronimo is great for Windows platform, though it doesn't have 
 the feature I love in Sibelius, which is its midi playback capability.
Fronimo had MIDI playback capability from the very beginning, even directly
from tablature. 8^)

Francesco



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RE: horizontal spacing in tablature

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Fronimo's spacing is easy to achieve, if you know the 
 parameters you are entereing (1.5 for most durations).
This is how it will be in version 3.0 because the space between notes
changes in a continuos way. In the 2.1 the space can change only in fixed
steps and you have to set the number of steps between a rhythmic value and
the next in order to change the spacing: a little bit more cumbersome even
if there is a button that sets all to a preset modern spacing...

Francesco



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R: Tombeau de Mezangeau

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Wayne, 
there is a PDF copy from Perrine at
http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/perrine.pdf

Francesco



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R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Martin and Ed,
 
 historical fact.  I have found the same results with roping, 
 that it gives a rather dull sound.  The lower tension
 solution seems to be logical.
Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less
tended than the other strings? It contrasts with all historical tutorials we
have. They all say that the tactile sensation must be the same on all the
courses and I wholeheartedly agree with them. If there was a problem with
the basses' tension surely they would have talked about this but actually
they said to keep the tension costant more or less.
I think that for 6c a regular gut string particularly twisted as
could be Gamut Pystoys or Aquila Venice is OK. They are not roped but are
like 3-4 thin regular twisted strings twisted again together, when the gut
is still wet, and then polished to the right gauge. This kind of strings
works very well for the V and VI courses of my Renaissance lute but of
course one should not expect a very brilliant tone, like a wound string of
course, and there is no reason to think that a so much brighter bass is
actually better and that it was actually historical. I never had problem in
stopping them together with the plain gut octaves as someone said to have,
it's just a matter of developing a habit.
For deeper strings the only solution is to found a working
technology to load a gut string. Perhaps we haven't found the right one and
I agree that the Aquila loaded strings were almost unusable due to the
problems of intonation but I think in the past they did in some way. For
Baroque lute there are some remnants of original strings (ask Mimmo Peruffo
for this) that show they used demi-filee strings. For the transitional
period when wound string were still not used who knows. There is need for
more experiments, but I would surely draw out any hypothesis of different
tensions amongst courses, just for musical reason.

Francesco




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R: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Ed,
ah, ok, but then you should tune at a lower pitch because they
hadn't string thinner than 0.40mm. In any case I'm wondering if there were
instrument built and used for playing in consorts and instruments built for
solo and if they actually used different tuning (meaning the chantarelle
pitch). There are historical instrument, especially swan neck, that have
pretty long diapasons to be used at the usual pitch and they where used also
often for continuo. Unfortunately continuo parts haven't tablature so no one
knows how they actually played them. If existed instruments with different
pitch it's strange in any case that there is never a lute concert in which
the tablature part implies this.

Another area, perhaps, in which more musicological research would be very
commendable.

Francesco

 -Messaggio originale-
 Da: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Inviato: domenica 28 novembre 2004 0.27
 A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Edward Martin'; 'Martin 
 Shepherd'; 'Lute Net'
 Oggetto: Re: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
 
 
 Dear Francesco,
 
 I did not imply that for the basses that less tension was 
 used.  I think 
 for the baroque lute, less tension overall on the entire 
 instrument is the 
 most logical possibility, not just for the basses.  I agree 
 that the gimped 
 or Pistoy is a much better sound that a roped (i.e., catline) string.
 
 For the basses of baroque lutes, we still do not have all the 
 answers, if 
 loaded gut was used, or not.  I have also seen / played some 
 convincingly 
 good loaded strings, but it is not known if they are historical.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 ed




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RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Stephan and all,
 
 At least with my hands it's in no way easier to play thumb-out 
 on low bass courses. If I want to keep the little finger on 
 the soundboard and away from the first course, the thumb 
 virtually is _in_ when lying on e.g. the 11th course. 
 Interestingly it only seems to work when the little finger 
 rests on/under the bridge or behind it, so that you have a 
 little space for upward movement without touching the strings. 
It's true that moving up the thumb goes towards the bridge and so could
pass behind the position of the index finger tip, because it moves on an
arc. I think that thumbs out should be considered with the hand in a
less extreme position, for example with the thumb resting on VI or VII
course. Then, if you put the hand in a thumb under position when the
thumb rests on, say, the VI course, when you move the thumb up it goes
a lot back towards the bridge while if you have a thumb out it will
pluck the strings almost at the same distance from it. In terms of the
angle string-thumb, with thumb under you go from an angle close to zero
on the VI course to an angle of close to 80 degree for the lower courses
and the extension is obtained only (or mostly) by rotating the thumb as
the little finger is quite locked by its flat position. Starting thumb
out the angle range might be -25 to 15 degree and the extra extension
needed is obtained extending the little finger. In this second case the
thumb rotates in a different and smaller arc and the hit point changes a
lot less giving a more balanced sound on all diapasons. In some
portraits the little finger rests on the bridge or behind and the thumb
is always out, but I guess it might be a matter of hand conformation and
size and it seems to me that the majority used the hand in a less
extreme position, even if always quite close to the bridge and thumb
out, more or less. The posture of Gaultier portrait seems to me one of
the most natural and relaxed.

 And a harsh sounding upper register at the same time.
I don't agree about the harsh. Right, the sound is brighter of course,
but it can be pleasant if the fingers pluck, to say so, tapping instead
of hooking. Even thumb out there are a lot of possible angles that can
be chosen for the attack of fingers. Of course it's a different
technique that must be practiced to work well. I'm not completely
satisfied by the sound I obtain thumbs out but I noticed that it
improved a lot from the first harsh sounds so I think there is margin
for further improvement.

 I noticed that strings have several sweet spots of different 
 colour which are related to the points where you get the 
 harmonics. Usually we try to play at those very points, 
 consciously or not. Just like the harmonics over the 
 fingerboard towards the saddle those spots are ever closer 
 together when moving the hand to the bridge and the colour 
 changes rapidly (as the feel of stiffness under the finger). 
 When playing in the extreme thumb-out position very close to 
 the bridge we see on so many paintings with musicians in a 
 playing posture (and I think one can judge them from mere 
 posing), the middle and especially the ring finger _will_ 
I'm just trying with my hand on the desktop: the index and middle would
hit the string at a distance of 1 cm or so, quite close of what happens
thumb in, as you have to leave room for both also in this hand position.
The ring finger on the other hand really plucks quite behind compared to
thumb in, but it is also used less frequently. Perhaps the advantages in
the use of the thumb justified the additional work needed to obtain a
good sound by the ring finger.

 sound much different than the index. There is no way of having 
 a much lower tension on the first course or courses than on 
 the following to compensate this if we want an even 
 stiffness that is not just felt. So either our concept of 
 baroque stringing is wrong and the tension increased towards 
 the basses, or our concept of a pleasant and well-balanced 
In case the opposite, as the chanterelle tension cannot be lowered
without changing the overall instrument pitch and heavier basses means
thicker and duller strings. A little lighter bourdons in my opinion
could work well. I used in the past a loaded gut bass on my Renaissance
lute 8th course a little bit lighter of the other string and it was
better, but one cannot exaggerate here otherwise it would buzz or loose
sound. 

 sound through all registers does not match baroque aesthetics. 
I think it could be so. About the balance I think it can be obtained
with some work. All of us had to practice a lot to have a good and
uniform sound in all registers with our thumb-in technique, why the same
effort shouldn't be necessary for the thumb out too?

 Please correct me if I'm wrong...
 BTW, I seem to remember that Besard wrote constantly moving 
 the arm would be unmanly and therefore thumb-out would be the 
 superior technique. One point to the posing theorists :-)

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Stephan,
 
 it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge 
 produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me 
 that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings 
 result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper 
 register. If the aim had been to brighten the bass there would 
 have been no reason to abandon thumb-inside, where you can hit 
 the string with the tip of the thumb, if you like and not with 
Perhaps they decided to change to thumb out for other technical reasons. I
guess it's simpler to play thumb out with many courses, due to the much
wider distance the thumb must reach, and also because in the music for these
larger instruments the thumb must use the lower strings a lot more than for
Renaissance repertoire. As you pointed out the thumb out move the point
where it plucks the string a lot forward and this can make the sound sloppy
on the thick gut basses. The answer might have been to move the hand towards
the bridge in order to regain a clear and full sound on the basses. Just my
opinion of course...

 its side. So either they wanted darker sounding basses, which 
 would be strange in the age of figured bass, or they were 
 quite satisfied with their bass strings. 
Or used different instruments for figured bass, theorbos or german theorbos,
that actually solve the problem adding length to the basses...

Francesco




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RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed,
more or less, all in the same position. 8^)

Then what about the portraits of Mouton and Gaultier? They are not exactly
unknown lutenists and if I was a famous master I would have liked to be
portrayed more or less in a correct playing pose.

Also there are many original tops that have a spot were the little finger
rested and that spot is very close to the bridge or even behind the bridge.

Of course it's possible that the playing technique varied from place to
place but these are evidences we cannot completely ignore.

Francesco


 -Original Message-
 From: Elias Fuchs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:35 PM
 To: David Cameron; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
 
 
 I just want to say something about the often quoted old 
 paintings. These paintings are to my opinion much too much 
 relied upon with regard to lute technique, especially right 
 hand (for instance drawing conclusions from a hand being far 
 from the bridge or near, etc). I had read tons of 
 justifications based on old paintings. Who can be sure, 
 that a real lutenist was the model for the painting, or - 
 beware! - a bad lutenist, or somebody with his own personal 
 technique none has ever seen, so what? Was the painter 
 primarily interested in a detailed lute technical description 
 for us, or in his own esthetical end product? So hasn't the 
 painter influenced the maybe even real lute player, telling 
 him bad stuff like Hold your right hand a bit more in a way 
 so I can also see your little finger, because that looks 
 better for the painting, etc., you understand what I mean, 
 the possibilities for a hand position that would not be 
 representative, are endless!
 
 Elias



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R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hi all,
I think the trick of lowering tension cannot work.
If you lower tension you would need thinner strings or otherwise the
pitch would be as low as a third or even more below the standard 415Hz A.
Many historical baroque lutes are already too much longer to
accommodate a chantarelle pitched to F at standard 415Hz A and a lower
reference A must be considered, perhaps a tone lower the modern 440 A
otherwise the chantarelle would break immediately. I'm not an expert of this
but I guess that it's most improbable that a lower reference A was in use
somewhere in Europe. Consider that the lute had to be played with other
instruments or in small consorts and even orchestra, so it had to be tuned
at the same pitch of the other instruments. If this was not the case the
compositions where there is an obbligato lute part together with other
instruments would be all wrong. So I guess the nominal F chantarelle is the
F at the reference pitch used in a particular area where the lute was used.
If you low the tension for the chantarelle from 3.7N, which gives a
pitch of F on a 72cm lute tuned a reference 415Hz A with a standard string
of 0.40mm thickness, to 2.5N for example, you would need a thickness of the
first string of 0.34 or even less or keeping the 0.40 string, which is
probably very close to the smallest diameter available a the time too, you
have to tune it down to a C#, that is with the reference A a major third
below the standard and a fourth below the modern A pitch. Of course I'm
considering gut strings.
So there is a low limit to the tension which is given by the
thickness of the chantarelle and the tuning of it.
I guess that playing close to the bridge simply corresponded to a
different taste and to the need to gain in loudness. Even on a 10c playing
thumb out gives a brighter tone but after some practice it's possible to
obtain a pleasant, though quite different from the thumb in technique,
sound. When playing close to the bridge the gut basses of a Baroque lute
(which are a lot softer that the guitar wound strings, even if demi-filee or
loaded) sound better, are clearer and it's also easier to pick the right one
with the thumb. The higher strings are brighter but after a while it's
possible to choose an angle of the fingers that make possible to have a
sound which is not brittle or harsh.
I guess that here is a matter of prejudices. We have an idea of the
perfect sound for the Renaissance lute and this corresponds quite well to
what can be obtained with the historical technique, and we have an idea of
the sound of the baroque lute but this is based on the use of nylon and
wound strings, played in guitar like or renaissance lute like technique and
very seldom with the hand close to the bridge. There is no reason for this
sound to be similar to that of the Renaissance lute which was in use 2
centuries before (nor to be similar to that of a guitar with its long
decaying basses).
The first thing to do, I guess, is to try to understand how the
strings used on the lute were manufactured at the time and use them on our
instruments. It seems that the demi-filee is the kind of string that was
used for the basses and all the other strings were plain gut. The demi-filee
gut basses gives a very different sound to the whole, they are less
intrusive of the wound strings and the octaves gain importance. The whole
balance is different and the sound a lot more transparent. Then we should
try to obtain a clear and full sound with the hand in the historical
position. Working on the angles and attack of the string I'm sure this is
possible. The sound would be very different a lot brighter and with a
stronger attack, more similar to the sound of a virginal: different but not
necessarily bad and perhaps a lot closer to how it was in the 18th century.

Francesco




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R: Rubato and rolling chords

[Francesco Tribioli]

 in some way.  Not quite lute, but Carcassi stated that all 
 all chords should be 
 rolled in his early 19th-c. guitar method.
The same holds for ornaments. Piccinini says:

In tutti li luoghi dove si deve fermare assai, o poco, quivi si deve fare
il Tremolo,  hora si fà un sorte di Tremolo, hora un'altra, secondo che la
commodità insegna,  in ogni tasto, ò corda,  ancor nelle crome, havendo
tempo, farà buonissimo effetto sempre.

In all places where one must stop a long time, or a short time, there one
must do a trill, and now one does a kind of trill, now another, as the
opportunity teaches, and on every fret, or string, and in the quavers too,
having the time, it will do a very good effect always

The same appears if one looks at contemporary manuscripts as the Board,
where the ornaments are written down. There is barely a single note or chord
where an ornament is possible that is not ornamented. And what about French
Baroque music? It's really filled of ornaments and they are part of the
style we consider adequate for this music both on the harpsichord and lute.
No one would play French music cutting the ornaments.

Perhaps we have simply to rediscover a style for ornamentation in late
Renaissance music, we are always too ready to apply a vocal polyphonic style
to all this music. It might be appropriate for early Renaissance recercares
and fantasies but not for later music as mss. prove. Also passing to a
completely unormamented music in the first half of the century to a full
ornamented style in the second half without intermediate steps seems strange
to me, so who knows if early pieces were not much more ornamente than we
play now.

About rolled chords, if one looks at Perrine ms., that contains some
Gaultier music, and where the rolling chords are notated, one can see that
almost every chord is to be rolled, sometimes by use of the first finger
from the higher to the lower course, sometimes using the thumb from low to
high, but sometimes also using the first finger from the low to the high, as
it's done playing the baroque guitar.

My point is that it's difficult to draw a rule when rolling and the rule
should change accordingly to the epoch and geographical provenience of the
music. In some music too much rolling doesn't work in some other music seems
to be mandatory, the same for ornaments. Of course all must be filtered by
our modern feeling and by the player interpretation if we want to be
musicians and not musical archeologists but the suggestions that come form
the sources should probably be taken in account.

Francesco




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R: Mary Burwell Tutor

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hi all,
  I'm interested in the Mary Burwell lute tutor, reprinted in facsmile
  years ago by the Severinus Press (am I right?).
  
  Where can I find it (I mean the facsimile, of course...)?
 
 In march 2004 I asked them, and they said:
 
 ***
 
 
 Dear Mr Haegemann,
 
 Thank you for your email. We are having more copies of the 
 Robarts and Burwell Lute Books bound and they will be 
 available shortly. Details of these books can be found on our 
 web site, www.severinus.co.uk Please let us have the address 
 to which they should be sent.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Jenny Hewitt

I tried in the past to order some of the still available facsimile from
Severinus but they answered that their catalogue and store had been passed
to another publisher and that they had passed my order to them. Actually I
received an e-mail from the new publisher confirming they had received my
request, but saying also they were still transfering the Severinus' book
store and that they would have sent an e-mail as soon as the books were
available. Till now I had no other news from them...

Was anyone sucesfull, recently, in buying any lute book in the Severinus
catalogue?

Regards,

Francesco



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RE: Hercules, Catholic mass, and vihuelas.

[Francesco Tribioli]

 OK.  The mass is for a nobleman named Ercole.  Two questions:
The original Messe by Josquin is for Ercole I, Duke of Ferrara. Not just a
nobleman but a sort of absolute sovereign in his small duchy. He employed
for a short time Josquin at his court in 1471.

 1.  Why does the title, in the original Spanish, have 
 Hercules instead of Ercole.
The messe is written over a cantus firmus. The notes of the cantus firmus
are taken out of the text Hercules Dux Ferrariae syllables: (r)e u(t) (r)e
u(t) (r)e (l)a (s)i (r)e. The cantus firmus text was in latin as the whole
messe of course.

 2.  Was this an honor based on Ercole's secular achievements? 
  Or had he distinguished himself in piety or other religious virtues?
Nor one nor the other, it was just a sort of homage to a Duke that loved
music and had assembled a very important musical cappella in Ferrara.

Francesco

RE: HIN (Historical Informed Naming)

[Francesco Tribioli]

 are going to be unhappy.  I would wager most in the Lute 
 community would instantly understand that Francesco is most 
 surely Francesco Canova Da Milano Da Parigi.
The point is that Francesco da Milano was never called just Francesco at
his times as it was for, say, Michelangelo. Perhaps it might be an
Anglophone habit to call him that way, but for sure that's not the case here
in Italy, where he's universally known with his most common name in the
Renaissance, that is Francesco da Milano. No one here would call him with
just the first name and this is why the use to call him just Francesco
disturbs me. Perhaps, as he was an Italian, the Italian habit should prevale
this time... 8^)

Francesco (da Firenze)

R: HIN (Historical Informed Naming)

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Oddly enough Francesco and Michelangelo were both awarded the 
 title Il Divino, do you think they were called that?  I am 
 not sure how you know what FDM was called in his time.  If 
 Michelangelo was known as Michelangelo why was it not 
 possible for FDM to be known as Francesco understanding that 
 they both were thought of as Il Devino?  Is it not possible 
 that FDM was the most famous Francesco of his time and as 
 such is it not possible that he too, like Michelangelo, was 
 known by his sur name Francesco?  However, regardless of what 
 he was known as four-hundred years ago what seems to be 
 significant today is how he is known to those of us that 
 consider him significant.
And indeed nowadays Francesco da Milano is know as Francesco da
Milano and *not* as 'Francesco'. That's all. If you speak with any musician
outside this list perhaps, and I say perhaps, he knows who is Francesco da
Milano but surely would look surprised at you if you speak of Francesco. And
even in this list there was someone the disguised Francesco as myself
instead of Francesco da Milano, so it's not so clear and evident.
There are contemporary documents from which you can know how
Michelangelo and Francesco da Milano were called. Surely Michelangelo were
not called the Divino but il divino Michelangelo Buonarroti or for example
Vita di Michelangelo Buonarroti fiorentino, pittore, scultore e architetto
as Vasari wrote (later he calls him Michelangelo as he was a close friend
and a colleague of him). When you will manage the subtleties of Italian
language you will be perhaps in the condition of discussing about the use of
the first name or the surname in place of the family name in the Renaissance
texts. Il Divino is just an attribute and no one would ever understand who
is the subject if you don't follow it with a name or if it isn't very clear
from the context of whom you are talking about.
In his own lute books Francesco da Milano calls himself Francesco
Milanese and all the lute books I remember report variations of this:
Francesco da Milano, Francesco Milanese, Francesco Canova, Francisci Milan.
etc. etc. I may be wrong, but to my memory there is no lutenist in the past
known just by his first name, perhaps by his surname alone as Il cavalier
del Liuto but never with his first name alone. Even Perino Fiorentino (a
name that cannot be disguised at all) was Perino Fiorentino and never
Perino. I also humbly suggest that there is a little bit of difference
between Michelangelo and Francesco da Milano, with all the due respect for
Francesco da Milano.
Then if you want to continue to call him Francesco, you welcome. I
don't want to force anyone to do anything, even if this thing disturbs me.
You can call him even John Travolta if you like so, but it remains the fact
that his name was Francesco Canova da Milano, commonly known, now and in the
past, as Francesco da Milano. And I stop here with this thread which is
starting to become overly boring.

Francesco

R: HIP, Renbourne ODette

[Francesco Tribioli]

IE6.0 likes it.
ft

  http://www.cbsr.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Unicorn/Unicorn.xml
  
  Note: this is an xml document, and some browsers may not like it... 
  Alain
 IE doesn't, Mozilla does.
 RT
 
 

R: R: HIP, Renbourne ODette

[Francesco Tribioli]

 The most current Mac version for OS9.2 has no files listed in 
 the XML doc. RT
  IE6.0 likes it.
  ft
Mac?? What is Mac? 8^))
ft

HIN (Historical Informed Naming)

[Francesco Tribioli]

 be more thrilling than to hear Francesco improvise a 
 fantasia, or to hear Dowland sing one of his own lute songs? 
Wow, I guess people would be really thrilled to hear me improvising a
fantasia! I would have just to hope they had no ready to launch tomatos in
their bags.

Some days ago someone sent me, very kindly, his best wishes for my birthday.
Unfortunately it was not my birthday, it was just Wayne that recalled to the
list the Francesco's anniversary... 8^)

Please, PLEASE!! Stop, once and forever, to call Francesco da Milano (or
Francesco Canova if you prefer) just as Francesco! There are a few other
much more important composers named Francesco, Francesco Durante and
Francesco Geminiani just to name two, and even a Francesco da Parigi
lutenist, not to say millions of Francesco living in Italy and in the world.
PLEEAAASE! Be truly Historically Informed and call people with their right
name.

Thanks a lot in advance!

Francesco Tribioli

R: Unusual time signatures

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Stewart,
Fronimo 3 will have both this irregular meters, like 5/8 and 7/8,
and the way to change the default association between |\ and the mensural
notation value (it may be wrong but often I prefer the old equivalence for
transcriptions 8^)). It will have the possibility to have a different
notation character dimension in tablature and notation and finally the
possibility to choose, staff per staff, the space to be left between a staff
and the one immediately below.

Actually, most things are close to work reasonably well. I've still to add
the page mode editing and to finish revising the help file. I've decided to
leave out for now the baroque guitar complete support, otherwise this new
release will never be out... It will come as a free upgrade in the future.
Still I cannot give a date at which Fronimo mk. 3 will be ready. This month
I wanted to work to the page mode editing but the installation of the latest
release of Linux on a different disk actually corrupted the other disk,
where I had WinXP, so I've had to reinstall everything from scratch...
Computers... Argh!!! 8^)

Francesco

 -Messaggio originale-
 Da: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Inviato: martedì 24 agosto 2004 23.20
 A: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
 Oggetto: Re: Unusual time signatures
 
 
 Fronimo III will.
 RT
 __
 Roman M. Turovsky
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv
 
  From: Stewart McCoy
  2) Fronimo does not offer unusual time signatures like 5/8.
 
 

RE: R: Manuscript of Per Brahe - Skokloster

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Of course, Francesco Tribioli, an astronomer(?) himself, would name his
Yes, indeed. I would say a former astronomer as in the last 15 years or so
I've worked fulltime with computers, here at the Florence Astrophysical
Observatory.

 tablature program after Vincenzo Galilei's treatise on the 
 lute, Fronimo Dialogo (1568; 2nd. rev. ed. 1581/1586.
Exactly. The last residence of Galileo Galilei is just 200-300 meter away
from the place where I work and being myself an astronomer and lutenist
(even if a couple of orders of magnitude worse than Galileo family under
both aspects) the choice of the name came out natural 8^)

Francesco

R: R: Manuscript of Per Brahe - Skokloster

[Francesco Tribioli]

Dear Ed;
 
 And so was Galileo himself a lutenist. Or so I've heard.
 
 Gary
It has been reported that Galileo Galilei was an accomplished lutenist, more
skilled than his father Vincenzo. Even in his latest years he was considered
in contemporary documents at the same technical level of the best lutenists
of his time.

He was too much interested in physics and so he never exploited his musical
proficiency professionally. Perhaps we have lost with him a great artist but
we gained a genius that actually defined the modern scientific method. He
had the bad luck to live in a country somewhat obscured by
Counter-Reformation and while in Northern Europe he would have been covered
with gold and respected, in Italy was condamned by Inquisition, forced to
humiliate himself and confined in a small house near Florence. There he
spent his last years, almost confined and with limited possibilities to
publish his studies. At the end the light of reason cannot be obscured and
now we remember him as one of the fathers of modern science but too much
often people must suffer to make the truth shine.

Francesco

R: Manuscript of Per Brahe - Skokloster

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Was it this Tycho that has the large crater on the moon named
 after him?
Sure, it is.

Tycho designed many instruments and was the first to do very accurate
astronomical observations. His observations of the motion of the planets
were used by Kepler to formulate his famous three laws. The most famous of
the three Kepler laws is the one that says that all the planets, moons and
every other orbiting body has an elliptic orbit.

Considering that the first telescope was invented by Galileo 8 years after
Tycho Brahe's death, it's really astonishing what he was able to do with
just sextants, quadrants and other similar simple instruments.

Francesco

R: Manuscript of Per Brahe - Skokloster

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Wasn't Per Brahe a famous astronomer?  His lute book at the 
That was Tycho Brahe...

Francesco

R: Seeking advice for 4th course

[Francesco Tribioli]

 My teacher says that if you want longevity, use carbon.

But if you want a good sound my hear says: definetively use gut. 8^)

Francesco

R: R: Seeking advice for 4th course

[Francesco Tribioli]

  My teacher says that if you want longevity, use carbon.
  But if you want a good sound my hear says: definetively use 
  gut. 8^) 
  Francesco
 And a modicum of masochism...
 RT
Not at all! I'm very happy with gut. My 3 lutes and my baroque guitar
mounted gut strings from the beginning. Only the theorbe has a few nylgut
strings on the fingerboard, because I play it more seldom. Masochism for me
would be to play a good instrument with inappropriate and guitarrish strings
(but it's also a matter of taste, of course).

Francesco

RE: Current ongoing topics

[Francesco Tribioli]

 It resulted in the multiple Lute prefix  that obliterated 
 the subject after 2 responses.
 RT
Which of course is a highly desirable side effect, considered the quality of
the recent threads...

Francesco

RE: Beer bottles and lute rosettes: a frank discussion

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Dear Robert,
I don't know much about beer bottles, but I do know about guitars.
  Anyone can perform a simple experiment, By covering the 
 sound hole 
 on your guitar, with a piece of cardboard , One will then notice no
 change in the volume or treble, however, it is very striking the
 immediate loss of the bass register, and the nasal quality of the
 treble, not much different than a lute. Then gradually move the
 cardboard to expose a larger opening, and you will notice the 
 bass will slowly come back.
 Treble registers, need stiffness and density,  If one 
 carves three rosettes in to a therobo top you remove a
 significant about of stiffness and density, thus increasing
 the bass registers.
 Michael Thames
 Luthier
 www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
 Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames

Interesting. What is, in your experience, the differences between the deep
parchment rosettes and the flat rosettes in terms of sound volume and timbre
of baroque guitars?

Francesco

R: Size of the lute world

[Francesco Tribioli]

Timothy Motz wrote:
 I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that 
 coincides with the full moon.  We are just reaching a full moon right
 now

Should we consider RT, MO, MT and all the fighting gang on this list
belonging to the family of lycanthropes?!? WOW!!! Till now, we were told
they belonged to the family of apes, sycophants and such. That would explain
a lot of things, as this strange habit they have of discussing the same
'vexata questio' again and again, and every time with renovated, harsher
personal insults.

Thanks for your message that finally casts a shed of light on these
otherwise obscure episodes.

8^

Seriously speaking, I really agree with you. I don't see any advantage for
anyone in such sort of arguing. No one will move a millimeter out of his own
position but, in the meantime, our mail boxes are flooded by a flow of
insults, silliness and childish arguments that has nothing to do with the
lute and the original argument of the discussion and that, I suppose, don't
interest no one but the same few individuals that periodically give public
show of things that they would better solve privately.

Please, PLEASE, stop it, once and forever!

Francesco

R: For Francesco Tribioli

[Francesco Tribioli]

 Francesco,
 
 your account is broken - in the hope that you have another one :)
No Rainer, I was just away these last three days for work (yes, I admit that
sometimes I actually have to work! 8^))

About the PDF in Fronimo thread I cannot say more than the collective wisdom
has already said. Just, if you use Acrobat Distiller, remember to set the
option to include the fonts in the PDF. Otherwise the driver will crash or,
in the best case, your PDF will contain only boxes instead of characters.

Francesco

RE: copying bars with Fronimo

[Francesco Tribioli]

From release 2.1 the right mouse button is used to bring up the pop-up menu.
To select measures hold the Ctrl key and left click on the measures.

Francesco

 Has anyone been able to select/copy single bars in Fronimo 
 using the right
 mouse button as described in the help. I can't seem to get 
 bars to select using
 the mouse? I'm going crazy!!
 
 =
 web: http://www.christopherschaub.com
 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

RE: Fronimo files

[Francesco Tribioli]

Hi,
it's a change in the Yahoo policy. Unfortunately, from the past
month, it's no more possible to set the file permissions inside the File
area of any of the Yahoo groups to be readable by people which is not
registered to Yahoo, but fortunately the registration is still free. Also
the message archive of every group doesn't hold anymore any attachment.

I guess this was done to reduce the disk occupation from discussion groups
which mostly contained pictures...

Also I had to change the membership to the Fronimo group from free to
restricted (I have to approve it) because a couple of months ago a guy
subscribed the group to send spam. Even if I approve the access to everyone,
just the presence of a filter discourage spammers to subscribe.

Francesco


 -Original Message-
 From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:48 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Fronimo files
 
 
 I have used, as many have in the past, the Fronimo files of 
 tablature.  Tonight, I went to the site, and it asked me to 
 sign up, go 
 through a registration process.  is this now necessary, or is there a 
 direct link?
 
 ed
 
 
 
 Edward Martin
 2817 East 2nd Street
 Duluth, Minnesota  55812
 e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 voice:  (218) 728-1202