[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
> On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson wrote: > > 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. > It was probably shortened sometime from its original length > into this present condition. > The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses > of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with > 0.40-0.42 > for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. > 1500 mm... Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Hi all, sorry for the confusion! The diapasons are 1300 mm long, but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them properly. Best, Magnus On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson <[2]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. >It was probably shortened sometime from its original length >into this present condition. >The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses >of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with >0.40-0.42 >for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. >1500 mm... Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500? To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
well when SOFRACOB still existed, you could cut your own length since he sent them in lengtes of more than 3 meters.. Woul Dan Larson provide strings that that long? or Mimmo Peruffo if you go Nylgut? Bruno 2017-12-11 11:42 GMT-05:00 Magnus Andersson <[1]magnusl...@gmail.com>: Hi all, sorry for the confusion! The diapasons are 1300 mm long, but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them properly. Best, Magnus On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner <[1][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson <[2][3]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. > It was probably shortened sometime from its original length > into this present condition. > The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses > of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with > 0.40-0.42 > for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. > 1500 mm... Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500? To get on or off this list see list information at [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:[6]magnusl...@gmail.com 3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 6. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Hi Magnus, I don't know how advanced your project is but are you sure that you want your instrument to be a copy of the Sellas theorbo as it is now rather than how it probably was originally? The catalogue of the museum confirms that the upper neck was severely shortened and that the modification was rather shoddily done. The original diapasons would have probably had the classic proportions of twice the length of the lower neck, so in the region of 1800 cm. The octave strings were doubtlessly added to the diapasons to compensate for their short length. If you do go for a copy of the instrument in its present state, then I would suggest putting it into a' 392 as the lower neck S.L. is on the long side and it has a big body. You could then use a gut string of about 0.44 (or maybe even 0.46). I think Kürschner make long lengths (more than 125 cm) to order. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. [1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. It was probably shortened sometime from its original length into this present condition. The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with 0.40-0.42 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. 1500 mm... Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Best wishes, Magnus Andersson To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Another thought: obviously you wouldn't be able to use an octave string for the 7th diapason, it would just be too thin, so maybe if you do decide to have the upper neck at 130 cm, then you could ask your luthier to put the 7th course on the fingerboard. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 18:39, Matthew Daillie wrote: Hi Magnus, I don't know how advanced your project is but are you sure that you want your instrument to be a copy of the Sellas theorbo as it is now rather than how it probably was originally? The catalogue of the museum confirms that the upper neck was severely shortened and that the modification was rather shoddily done. The original diapasons would have probably had the classic proportions of twice the length of the lower neck, so in the region of 1800 cm. The octave strings were doubtlessly added to the diapasons to compensate for their short length. If you do go for a copy of the instrument in its present state, then I would suggest putting it into a' 392 as the lower neck S.L. is on the long side and it has a big body. You could then use a gut string of about 0.44 (or maybe even 0.46). I think Kürschner make long lengths (more than 125 cm) to order. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. [1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. It was probably shortened sometime from its original length into this present condition. The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with 0.40-0.42 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. 1500 mm... Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Best wishes, Magnus Andersson To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG. http://www.avg.com
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Hi Magnus, Do you really need to use octave stringing throughout? For your 7th and 8th courses, for example, the diameter of the fundamental for a string length of 1300mm should give enough clarity of sound for there not to be a need for an octave to brighten it further. To my ear, the discontinuity in sound on a typical single strung theorbo that occurs between the lowest string on the fingerboard and the first diapason is a bit harsh (and there is no question of an octave!). Just my 2 cents worth. Miles > On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:15 PM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > wrote: > > well when SOFRACOB still existed, you could cut your own length since > he sent them in lengtes of more than 3 meters.. > Woul Dan Larson provide strings that that long? or Mimmo Peruffo if you > go Nylgut? > Bruno > > 2017-12-11 11:42 GMT-05:00 Magnus Andersson <[1]magnusl...@gmail.com>: > >Hi all, >sorry for the confusion! >The diapasons are 1300 mm long, >but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them > properly. >Best, >Magnus >On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner ><[1][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: >> On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson > <[2][3]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. >>It was probably shortened sometime from its original > length >>into this present condition. >>The problem that arises is when one wants to string the > upper > courses >>of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings > beginning > with >>0.40-0.42 >>for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string > length > of ca. >>1500 mm... > Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500? >To get on or off this list see list information at >[3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >-- > References >1. mailto:[5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com >2. mailto:[6]magnusl...@gmail.com >3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 3. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 6. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com > 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
On 11/12/2017 18:50, Matthew Daillie wrote: Another thought: obviously you wouldn't be able to use an octave string for the 7th diapason, it would just be too thin, so maybe if you do decide to have the upper neck at 130 cm, then you could ask your luthier to put the 7th course on the fingerboard. Sorry, ignore this last comment about the octave string (which, as I said in my previous message, could be 0.44 at a' 392), but if you can't find a string long enough, you could consider changing the set-up to 7 courses for both necks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. [1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. It was probably shortened sometime from its original length into this present condition. The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with 0.40-0.42 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. 1500 mm... Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Best wishes, Magnus Andersson -- References 1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
According to the museum catalogue, the basses were indeed made double when the neck was shortened. It is surmised that the upper neck was shortened by 500 mm and that this was the reason for the lower courses being doubled thereafter (presumably to compensate for a lacklustre sound from the basses). Both peg boxes have been altered and the one on the lower neck has had to accommodate twice as many pegs as it had before. The present German-style bridge is not original and probably dates from when the major modifications were carried out. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 19:30, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German theorbo" (whatever that is)? Also strange that the upper neck (as we would say) was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply being replaced. Perhaps we could be looking at a totally single-strung theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification. Martin On 11/12/2017 20:17, Matthew Daillie wrote: According to the museum catalogue, the basses were indeed made double when the neck was shortened. It is surmised that the upper neck was shortened by 500 mm and that this was the reason for the lower courses being doubled thereafter (presumably to compensate for a lacklustre sound from the basses). Both peg boxes have been altered and the one on the lower neck has had to accommodate twice as many pegs as it had before. The present German-style bridge is not original and probably dates from when the major modifications were carried out. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 19:30, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
On 11/12/2017 20:31, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German theorbo" (whatever that is)? Also strange that the upper neck (as we would say) was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply being replaced. Perhaps we could be looking at a totally single-strung theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification. Martin Sorry, yes, I meant to say the upper-neck peg box (not the lower-neck peg box) has been modified to accommodate the extra pegs (not fully compos mentis today, I've got a rotten cold). Regarding the bridge, the curator (presumably Joël Dugot) describes it as being 'conçu dans la tradition germanique'. If it was converted into a so-called German theorbo (like the copy Hoppy had made for his latest recording of Bach's first three cello suites), that would mean the 7th course would be Ff rather than Gg, which would be easier to find a suitable octave string for (although the instrument would have 14 rather than 13 courses, which is perhaps rather odd). Not only has the instrument definitely undergone extensive modification but in addition (again according to the curator) the work was poorly executed. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has been mangled into something else. What a shame. M On 11/12/2017 20:54, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 11/12/2017 20:31, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German theorbo" (whatever that is)? Also strange that the upper neck (as we would say) was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply being replaced. Perhaps we could be looking at a totally single-strung theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification. Martin Sorry, yes, I meant to say the upper-neck peg box (not the lower-neck peg box) has been modified to accommodate the extra pegs (not fully compos mentis today, I've got a rotten cold). Regarding the bridge, the curator (presumably Joël Dugot) describes it as being 'conçu dans la tradition germanique'. If it was converted into a so-called German theorbo (like the copy Hoppy had made for his latest recording of Bach's first three cello suites), that would mean the 7th course would be Ff rather than Gg, which would be easier to find a suitable octave string for (although the instrument would have 14 rather than 13 courses, which is perhaps rather odd). Not only has the instrument definitely undergone extensive modification but in addition (again according to the curator) the work was poorly executed. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a splendid instrument. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote: OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has been mangled into something else. What a shame. M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but probably 120cm will do it. Thanks, Sterling __ From: Martin Shepherd To: Magnus Andersson ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: >Dear collective wisdom, >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. > [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179 9 >It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with >six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, >and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. >It was probably shortened sometime from its original length >into this present condition. >The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses >of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with >0.40-0.42 >for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. >1500 mm... >Any ideas would be highly appreciated. >Best wishes, >Magnus Andersson > >-- > > References > >1. [2]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [4]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- References 1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 2. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt, can predict when a string start to be 'not good enought'. I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not the denser versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc). Now, generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality and the octave is indispensable (and what about the Vihuela? Well in my opinion it had octaves on the 5 and 6 courses because the bass strings were those in use on Lutes). The Working Index of the 6th course is around 59 Hz/mt. So, if the last bass string of the extended neck exceed the value of 59 Hz/mt of Working Index an octave is necessary like (same working index of the 6th course) . At the modern 'baroque' pitch of 415 the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz so: 59/46.25= 1.27 mt In practice we can say that, generally speacking (generally speacking, ok?) when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut start to be necessary the use of octaves. Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the extended neck can be even a bit shorter than that. What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision, we are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) . I have considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that the 6th course had octaves while the 5th is still matter of taste. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di sterling price Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27 A: Martin Shepherd ; Magnus Andersson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but probably 120cm will do it. Thanks, Sterling __ From: Martin Shepherd To: Magnus Andersson ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: >Dear collective wisdom, >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. > [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179 9 >It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with >six double strings on
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
> On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Matthew Daillie > wrote: > > That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a > splendid instrument. > > Best, > Matthew > > On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote: >> OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has >> been mangled into something else. What a shame. And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just that way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a cornetto. Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might learn something by considering what it might have been. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
I fully agree, Howard, that it is always interesting to explore how lutemaking developed and why certain instruments were modified to cater for changes in taste. There were clearly some very convincing conversions made of renaissance lutes for baroque lutenists, but wouldn't we have preferred that they start afresh so that we have both a renaissance lute and a baroque lute in their original state? What about all those historic lutes converted into hurdy-gurdies or 'lute-guitars' of one sort or another. We could also take into consideration the quality of these conversions, often blindly assuming that modern tastes and methods are better. Sometimes, as with harpsichords (of the Ruckers family in particular) the conversions have enabled the instruments to survive across the ages in one form or another but frequently so modified as to give us few clues regarding their original state. Anyway, I do hope that Magnus gets the instrument he wants and finds suitable strings for the diapasons. Best Matthew > On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:59, howard posner wrote: > > And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just > that way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a > cornetto. > > Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might learn something by > considering what it might have been. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Dear Howard, Matthew, Martin and Mimmo, thanks very much for your insightful comments. As we all know, lutes and theorboes were rebuilt- I ´d not use the word mangle here- throughout the history. Samuel Pepys gives us an example on the 25th of October 1661: [1]"Home on foot very discontented, in my way I calling at the Instrument maker, Hunt ´s, and there saw my lute, which is now almost done, it being to have a new neck to it and to be made to double strings." To me- what we here with Sellas, is a theorbo that was rebuilt, into what Howard is implying, an instrument that ought to be played. If the original neck was broken and thus remade, or remade for musical reasons, we may not know. I think we can exclude the thought of it being a German theorbo. All surviving instruments that could ´ve been used as German theorboes have single bass strings throughout. Also Baron tells us that the fingerboard strings are double, but the long basses single. So even though the bridge is German, the tuning could very well have been the old "standard" tuning in G or A. 1,3 m long basses would in my opinion not cut it with single strings (if we think of plain gut as the original string of choice) in terms of power- thus the necessity of octaves. If the theorbo would be tuned in 415hz, and in A, the first long string would give us a breaking index of 1.3 m x 185 hz = 240,5 m.hz. If tuned in 392 hz, 227,5 m.hz. How would this sound? I think (and hope!), majestic. Perhaps like the theorbo that the musician of Louis XIV holds in his hands, in the painting of François Puget... Best, Magnus â -- References 1. http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/1023/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace had double basses. I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda Sayce, there must be others - I wonder if they have any insights? Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2017 10:17 CET, Martin Shepherd schrieb: > It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace > had double basses. I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this > instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda > Sayce, there must be others - I wonder if they have any insights? But didn't these instruments have bass strings of increasing length (like the so-called flemish lutes). So the 7th chourse would not have the full extention length. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Dear Magnus, I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm. This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute first course would have been equally available for the 7th course octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo. However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop. Longer basses may have been present originally. The famous Puget painting of Louis XIV's musicians (1687), sadly cuts off most of the theorbo upper peghead but one can do a bit of geometry and extend the strings upwards to a position where a reasonable seperation double course nut may be placed - on this basis I roughly estimate a bass extension string length of the of 155 +/- 10, but this is, of course assuming Puget got it about right! MH __ From: Magnus Andersson To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, 11 December 2017, 16:26 Subject: [LUTE] A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179 9 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. It was probably shortened sometime from its original length into this present condition. The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with 0.40-0.42 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. 1500 mm... Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Best wishes, Magnus Andersson -- References 1. [2]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 2. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm. Best, Matthew On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Magnus, I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm. This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute first course would have been equally available for the 7th course octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo. However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop. Longer basses may have been present originally. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
I disagree Matthew, Bear in mind that thin gut strings stretch and thus thin significantly when up to tension. So your 0.40 would be closer to 0.37 when up to pitch. I was basing tension calculations (as they ought to be for accuracy) on stretched/thinned strings: thus the 0.34mm string would be around 0.37 unstretched.. not a million miles from your 0.40mm unstretched! Perhaps a matter of taste. For example, I employ an unstretched 0.40mm diamter plain gut on my G lute (@A415) with string length of 64cm (which is roughly equivalent to your ).40 unthinned at 60cm @A440) - but this follows the early advice to use bigger strings on bigger lutes which ensures a similar feel rather than he same tension. I prefer 0.37mm on a small lute of 60cm. rgds Martyn __ From: Matthew Daillie To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Tuesday, 12 December 2017, 11:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm. Best, Matthew On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Dear Magnus, >I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled >octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass >octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension >around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a >plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm. >This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of >diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at >nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute >first course would have been equally available for the 7th course >octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo. >However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this >instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop. >Longer basses may have been present originally. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt, can predict when a string start to be 'not good enought'. I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not a denser versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc). Generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality, thus the octave is indispensable (Vihuela? In my opinion it had octaves on the 5 and 6 courses). The Working Index of a 6th course on a lute of 60cms at modern pitch is around 59 Hz/mt. So, if the last bass string of the extended neck is around the same value, an octave is necessary (we have the same working index of the 6th course) . Which is the scale were the working index is same of the 6 course of a lute ? At the modern 'baroque' pitch of 415 the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz so: 59/46.25= 1.27 mt In practice we can maybe say that, generally speacking when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut start to be necessary the use of octaves. Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the extended neck can be even a bit shorter than that. What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision, we are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) . I have considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that the 6th course had octaves while the 5th is still matter of taste. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di sterling price Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27 A: Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson <[4]magnusl...@gmail.com>; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but probably 120cm will do it. Thanks, Sterling __ From: Martin Shepherd <[6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> To: Magnus Andersson <[7]magnusl...@gmail.com>; "[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you m
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Here's a few scenarios: - The musician had to sell his luxury car for a small one, but the lute did not fit into the baggage compartment. - The musician had to downsize his apartment, now living in a small room under the roof the lute was too long for the low ceiling. - the musician had a very elaborate playing style and members of the orchestra complained about getting hit by the bass neck and chipped in for a neck shortening - ... Am 12.12.2017 um 07:59 schrieb howard posner: On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a splendid instrument. Best, Matthew On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote: OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has been mangled into something else. What a shame. And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just that way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a cornetto. Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might learn something by considering what it might have been. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability of the lowest basses (at say 130cm). On a typical swan-neck lute, the lowest course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 and be perhaps 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison. This comparison suggests that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine. The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be viable (I can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but that implies .35mm for the high octave). I've temporarily lost my string calculator, but Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems reasonable. But .34mm is at least 20% thinner than the smallest diameter that we think the Old Ones could have made (we could be wrong about this, but even if such a string could be made it is hard to imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says). So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the upper octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course. Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
If I were to string-up Magnus’ double-strung diapasons, I wouldn’t bother with octaves on the 7th (and probably 8th) course. At that length (130cm) and pitch they will sound bright enough. - just string them in unisons. Miles > On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: > > Sorry I didn't make myself clear. > > When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability of > the lowest basses (at say 130cm). On a typical swan-neck lute, the lowest > course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 and be perhaps > 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison. This comparison suggests > that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine. > > The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be viable (I > can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but that implies > .35mm for the high octave). I've temporarily lost my string calculator, but > Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems reasonable. But .34mm is at least > 20% thinner than the smallest diameter that we think the Old Ones could have > made (we could be wrong about this, but even if such a string could be made > it is hard to imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says). > > So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the upper > octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course. > > Martin > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Dear Miles- thanks, I don ´t know why I didn ´t think of that! It is a good idea. It ´ll sure be a lot of experimenting in the beginning to find the "perfect" setup for this instrument, but I ´m so eager to try it out! Magnus On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Miles Dempster <[1]miles.demps...@gmail.com> wrote: If I were to string-up Magnus' double-strung diapasons, I wouldn't bother with octaves on the 7th (and probably 8th) course. At that length (130cm) and pitch they will sound bright enough. - just string them in unisons. Miles > On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote: > > Sorry I didn't make myself clear. > > When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability of the lowest basses (at say 130cm). On a typical swan-neck lute, the lowest course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 and be perhaps 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison. This comparison suggests that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine. > > The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be viable (I can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but that implies .35mm for the high octave). I've temporarily lost my string calculator, but Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems reasonable. But .34mm is at least 20% thinner than the smallest diameter that we think the Old Ones could have made (we could be wrong about this, but even if such a string could be made it is hard to imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says). > > So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the upper octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course. > > Martin > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [3]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com 2. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 3. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Thanks Martyn, the problem that arised was to find strings long enough at this thinness. But a few string makers that I ´ve contacted can supply them in 1,5, 2,4 or 3 meters even though it ´s not part of their "regular" catalogue. But yes- I also believe that the Puget painting shows that double stringed diapasons on longer necked lutes did exist- he ´s so detailed in his work that we can see the different colours of the long strings. The first 7 courses are all in unison, and beginning wit the first long course (the 8th), the bass courses all have different colored strings. Best, Magnus On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Dear Magnus, I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm. This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute first course would have been equally available for the 7th course octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo. However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop. Longer basses may have been present originally. The famous Puget painting of Louis XIV's musicians (1687), sadly cuts off most of the theorbo upper peghead but one can do a bit of geometry and extend the strings upwards to a position where a reasonable seperation double course nut may be placed - on this basis I roughly estimate a bass extension string length of the of 155 +/- 10, but this is, of course assuming Puget got it about right! MH __ From: Magnus Andersson <[2]magnusl...@gmail.com> To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, 11 December 2017, 16:26 Subject: [LUTE] A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. [1][5]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/ MUSEE/0161799 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm. It was probably shortened sometime from its original length into this present condition. The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with 0.40-0.42 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca. 1500 mm... Any ideas would be highly appreciated. Best wishes, Magnus Andersson -- References 1. [6]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/ MUSEE/0161799 To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 6. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to be. Good luck, Magnus! BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could share? I only have a very indistinct one. Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Martin, The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link rgds Martyn [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search [google.png] Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search __ From: Martin Shepherd To: Lute List Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to be. Good luck, Magnus! BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could share? I only have a very indistinct one. Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links 1. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM: 2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Hidden links: 5. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%253A%252C7PrvozbPq_afYM%252C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Would it be an acceptable solution, for the 7th course, to make an exception and use an octave string whose density is less than that of gut? A nylon octave would have a thickness of .4mm or more. In the grand scheme of things would it sound out of place in comparison to the remaining diapasons with their gut octaves? Miles > On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:02 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: > > The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the > transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to be. > Good luck, Magnus! > > BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could > share? I only have a very indistinct one. > > Martin > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
Dear Martin and Miles, There is another alternative: for theorbos with octave basses one could employ an octave disposition on the final fingered course (ie the sixth) - after all, this is how lutes were generally strung in this period. This would smooth the aural transition from stopped sixth to open seventh course. And perhaps a high octave sound on the bourdons was something the Old Ones enjoyed anyway? - so a, to modern ears, intrusive seventh course octave may have been perfectly satisfactory to them. Shades, of course, of the octave re-entrant tuning of guitars of the period MH __ From: Miles Dempster To: Lute List Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 16:24 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Would it be an acceptable solution, for the 7th course, to make an exception and use an octave string whose density is less than that of gut? A nylon octave would have a thickness of .4mm or more. In the grand scheme of things would it sound out of place in comparison to the remaining diapasons with their gut octaves? Miles > On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:02 AM, Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote: > > The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to be. Good luck, Magnus! > > BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could share? I only have a very indistinct one. > > Martin > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget
Here an important text on the picture by Puget: Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127. Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir de musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le prétendait, ou même Lorenziani, comme lâa proposé André Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la reine, se trouvait dans une semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt sâagir de Provençaux et les circonstances du tableau, la type des personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. Des amis de Lierre et François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son petit-fils lâacitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et lâon ne sâétonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision rigoureuse dans la représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches de Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin. Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, Jean-Baptiste Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de lâopéra de Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à danser tenant la pochette propre à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon exclure lâhypothèse de Luciene Colliard dâune représentation du Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien qui accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour être François, alors âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, frère cadet dâAndré Campra, qui fit carrière à lâopéra de Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. Reste le joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Puget, comme on lâa supposé mais dont il nâa pas de tout les traits, ne! serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de lâopéra de Marseille? ⦠>From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseilleâ we have 5 pieces in anonyme arrangements >for lute. Hereâs the only digital soource of his works I know: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 <http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181> Andreas > Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson > : > > Martin, > The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link > rgds > Martyn > [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search > >[google.png] > > Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search > __ > > From: Martin Shepherd > To: Lute List > Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 > The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before > the > transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to > be. Good luck, Magnus! > BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they > could > share? I only have a very indistinct one. > Martin > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM: > 2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Hidden links: > 5. > https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%253A%252C7PrvozbPq_afYM%252C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM: > Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget
Andreas, I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. de Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ? All the best, Jean-Marie -- >Here an important text on the picture by Puget: > >Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, >Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127. > >Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir de >musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le prétendait, ou >même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont >morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la reine, se trouvait dans une >semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de Provençaux et les circonstances >du tableau, la type des personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. >Des amis de Lierre et François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son >petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne >s’étonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision rigoureuse dans la >représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait >aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches >de Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin. >Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne >peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, Jean-Baptiste >Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de l’opéra de >Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à danser tenant la >pochette propre à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas Besson (mort après >1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut >de toute façon exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene Colliard d’une >représentation du Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu >protocollaire. Le musicien qui accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour >être François, alors âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, >frère cadet d’André Campra, qui fit carrière à l’opéra de Paris, de >1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. Reste le joueur de luth : >plutôt que Piere Pu! get, comme on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne! > serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de > Marseille? … > >From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme arrangements >for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I know: >http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 ><http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181> > >Andreas > >> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson >> : >> >> Martin, >> The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link >> rgds >> Martyn >> [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >> >>[google.png] >> >> Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >> __________ >> >> From: Martin Shepherd >> To: Lute List >> Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 >> The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before >> the >> transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to >> be. Good luck, Magnus! >> BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they >> could >> share? I only have a very indistinct one. >> Martin >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> Visible links >> 1. >> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM: >> 2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> Hidden links: >> 5. >> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%253A%252C7PrvozbPq_afYM%252C_&usg=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM: >> > >Andreas Schlegel >Eckstr. 6 >CH-5737 Menziken >Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 >Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 >lute.cor...@sunrise.ch > > > > >--
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget
Four pieces are in the lute book of Hessen-Homburg. The actual owner of this book is not known and I donât have a copy. One piece is in F-Pn Rés. Vmb. ms. 7, p. 223 âLes Plaisirs de Gautier mis par hiretâ I have this informations from François-Pierre Goy. Ballard printed an anthology in 1707 with music by Gautier de Marseille, but itâs not in Gallica. All the best, Andreas > Am 13.12.2017 um 16:10 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier : > > Andreas, > I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. de > Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ? > > All the best, > > Jean-Marie > > > -- > >> Here an important text on the picture by Puget: >> >> Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, >> Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127. >> >> Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut >> s'agir de musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le >> prétendait, ou même Lorenziani, comme lââ¬â¢a proposé André >> Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort >> de la reine, se trouvait dans une semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt >> sââ¬â¢agir de Provençaux et les circonstances du tableau, la type des >> personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. Des amis de Lierre et >> François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son petit-fils >> lââ¬â¢acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et lââ¬â¢on ne >> sââ¬â¢Ã©tonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision >> rigoureuse dans la représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. >> Mirimonde. On voudrait aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons >> en partant des approches de Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin. >> Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne >> peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, >> Jean-Baptiste Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de >> lââ¬â¢opéra de Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le >> maître à danser tenant la pochette propre à sa profession pourrait >> être Nicolas Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande >> bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon exclure >> lââ¬â¢hypothèse de Luciene Colliard dââ¬â¢une représentation du >> Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien >> qui accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour être François, alors >> âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, frère cadet >> dââ¬â¢André Campra, qui fit carrière à lââ¬â¢opéra de >> Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. Reste le >> joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Pu! > get, comme on lââ¬â¢a supposé mais dont il nââ¬â¢a pas de tout les > traits, ne! >> serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de >> lââ¬â¢opéra de Marseille? ââ¬Â¦ >> >> From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseilleââ¬Å we have 5 pieces in anonyme >> arrangements for lute. Hereââ¬â¢s the only digital soource of his works I >> know: >> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 >> <http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181> >> >> Andreas >> >>> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson >>> : >>> >>> Martin, >>> The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link >>> rgds >>> Martyn >>> [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >>> >>> [google.png] >>> >>> Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >>>__ >>> >>> From: Martin Shepherd >>> To: Lute List >>> Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08 >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 >>> The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before >>> the >>> transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to >>> be. Good luck, Magnus! >>> BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they >>> could >>> share? I only have a very indistinct one. >>> Martin >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> [2]https://www.avast.com/ant
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget
Thank you, Andreas ! Jean-Marie -- >Four pieces are in the lute book of Hessen-Homburg. The actual owner of this >book is not known and I don’t have a copy. >One piece is in F-Pn Rés. Vmb. ms. 7, p. 223 „Les Plaisirs de Gautier mis par >hiret“ > >I have this informations from François-Pierre Goy. > >Ballard printed an anthology in 1707 with music by Gautier de Marseille, but >it’s not in Gallica. > >All the best, > >Andreas > >> Am 13.12.2017 um 16:10 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier : >> >> Andreas, >> I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. >> de Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ? >> >> All the best, >> >> Jean-Marie >> >> >> -- >> >>> Here an important text on the picture by Puget: >>> >>> Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, >>> Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127. >>> >>> Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir >>> de musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le >>> prétendait, ou même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. >>> Lulli er Quinault sont morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la >>> reine, se trouvait dans une semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de >>> Provençaux et les circonstances du tableau, la type des personnages, les >>> gestes confirment cette hypothèse. Des amis de Lierre et François? On >>> connaît par les témoignanges de son petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien >>> amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne s’étonnera pas de trouver chez >>> François une précision rigoureuse dans la représentation des >>> instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait aussi identifier >>> les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches de Mms Colliard >>> et Cheilan-Cambolin. >>> Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne >>> peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, >>> Jean-Baptiste Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de >>> l’opéra de Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à >>> danser tenant la pochette propre à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas >>> Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande bande de violons >>> de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene >>> Colliard d’une représentation du Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte >>> aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien qui accorde son basse de violon, trop >>> jeune pour être François, alors âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être >>> Joseph Campra, frère cadet d’André Campra, qui fit carrière à >>> l’opéra de Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. >>> Reste le joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Pu! >> get, comme on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne! >>> serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de >>> Marseille? … >>> >>> From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme >>> arrangements for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I >>> know: >>> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 >>> <http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181> >>> >>> Andreas >>> >>>> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson >>>> : >>>> >>>> Martin, >>>> The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link >>>> rgds >>>> Martyn >>>> [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >>>> >>>> [google.png] >>>> >>>> Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search >>>>__ >>>> >>>> From: Martin Shepherd >>>> To: Lute List >>>> Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08 >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 >>>> The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before >>>> the >>>> transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to >>>> be. Good luck, Magnus! >>>> BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they >>>> could >