[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Peter Martin]

   To hear what this keyboard-centric mucking about with temperament
   actually means in practice, I strongly recommend Richard Egarr's
   excellent harpsichord recital at Weill Hall on  [1]youtu.be/JIvbEWKpGwk

   He plays the first half (Byrd and Sweelinck) in 1/4-comma meantone and
   the second half (Blow and Purcell) in an unspecified, less extreme
   temperament.   Before each half, he gives a demonstration of the
   effects of each temperament, which are startlingly different (at 02:30
   and 48:45).   Worth a listen.
   All best
   Peter
   On 8 March 2018 at 10:31, Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
   wrote:

 Hi Leonard,
 This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me.
 Maybe it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are
 doing when checking the major thirds between the fifth and third
 courses of your lute).
 With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less
 major thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal
 temperament thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to
 the purity of major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats
 on a lute (far less evident than with the metal strings and clear
 harmonics of a harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised
 to set the frets based on calculations for your string length. You
 can use a calculator such as the one provided online by Lauri
 Niskanen which will give you the distances between the nut and the
 various frets. All you need to do is enter the string length of your
 lute and place your frets accordingly. Here's the link:
 [3]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
 Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra
 frets (tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them
 (such as the first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g').
 Mean tone distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be
 lower than Eb flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same
 time on the lute and you will need to adjust the position of certain
 frets according to the piece you are playing. Once your frets are
 set, I would suggest tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic
 tuner and then tuning the other courses by ear from that by using
 octaves. If you do not feel comfortable tuning by ear then use the
 setting on your tuner to get 1/4 comma mean-tone with an Eb as you
 will be playing music in flat keys. The final adjustments really do
 need to be made by ear, however good your tuner and you can check
 the major thirds of the piece you are playing.
 Hope this helps.
 Best,
 Matthew
 can use a pr

   On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:

 Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
 wondering about others' related experiences.   My 8 course is
 nominally in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since
 most of the music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner
 for an instrument in F instead of C.   Thus when I tune the g, the
 readout is d, etc.   I've also found that using a chord consisting
 of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th, and f on fifth is helpful in refining
 the tuning and those frets.
 Any similar experiences?
 Best to all,
 Leonard Williams

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://t.co/aBdt32XLxi
   2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   3. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Stephen Fryer]

I remember being rather excited when I saw in an old painting of a lute 
that at least one of the frets had a sliver of wood inserted to tighten 
it.  Unfortunately I have lost the reference.


Stephen Fryer


On 2018-03-09 4:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit 
more so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles 
me when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets 
when they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they 
become loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would 
be rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis 
was “the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a 
couple of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced 
and measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review 
with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me 
personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, 
equal temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the 
book contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments 
using the ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with 
pros and cons for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
<lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, 
Meantone temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 
2016), in: Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes 
<kidneykut...@gmail.com>:

 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on 
Lutes and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. 
History covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in 
part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
<dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

 >>>>
 >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our 
messages said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was 
making ??

 >>>>
 >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for 
tuning 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to 
use it on lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open 
(personally I use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 >>>>
 >>>> Best,
 >>>> Matthew
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the 
advocacy of a true
 >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of
 >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this 
forum a
 >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For 
example this

 >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[spiffys84121]

   I think I need to make a video about tightening frets. Possibly this
   weekend.

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Christopher Wilke <chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Date: 3/9/18 6:20 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

  I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
  burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?
  I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
  the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the
   knot.
  It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
  really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
  even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to
   begin
  with. If too loose, out come the shims...
  Chris
  [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
  On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
  <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
  more
  so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.
  I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)
  Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
  > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It
   baffles
  me
  > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
  when
  > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
  become
  > loose. Just tighten those frets!
  > Sterling
  >
  >
  >
  > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
  >
  >  Original message 
  > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
  > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
  > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  >
  > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
  some
  > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
  they
  > become loose.
  > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
  > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
  color
  > and not a flaw.
  > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe,
   but
  is
  > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
  "Little
  > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
  > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
  might
  > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
  > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're
   ok
  with
  > it...
  > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...
  >
  > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
  >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but
   would
  be
  > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis
   was
  > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
  couple
  > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and
  > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of
  > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and
   lute
  > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
  with
  > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
  personally,
  > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal
  > temperament is the norm.
  >  >
  >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
  book
  > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments
   using
  the
  > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and
   cons
  > for solo and ensemble players.
  >  >
  >  > Danny
  >  >
  >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel
  > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:
  >  >>
  >  >> There's a different view here:
  >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
  Meantone
  > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016),
   in:
  > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
  >  >>
  >  >> Andreas
  >  >>
  >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
  <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
  >  >>>
  >  >>> For an excell

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Christopher Wilke]

   I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
   burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?

   I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
   the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the knot.
   It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
   really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
   even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to begin
   with. If too loose, out come the shims...

   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
   more

   so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

   I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

   Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:

   > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles
   me

   > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
   when

   > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
   become

   > loose. Just tighten those frets!

   > Sterling

   >

   >

   >

   > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

   >

   >  Original message 

   > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>

   > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)

   > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

   >

   > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
   some

   > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
   they

   > become loose.

   > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.

   > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
   color

   > and not a flaw.

   > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but
   is

   > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
   "Little

   > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.

   > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
   might

   > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to

   > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok
   with

   > it...

   > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

   >

   > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:

   >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but would
   be

   > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was

   > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
   couple

   > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and

   > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of

   > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute

   > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
   with

   > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
   personally,

   > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal

   > temperament is the norm.

   >  >

   >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
   book

   > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using
   the

   > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons

   > for solo and ensemble players.

   >  >

   >  > Danny

   >  >

   >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel

   > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:

   >  >>

   >  >> There's a different view here:

   >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
   Meantone

   > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:

   > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

   >  >>

   >  >> Andreas

   >  >>

   >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:

   >  >>>

   >  >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer

   > (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on
   Lutes

   > and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History

   > covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by
   ear

   > and using a tuning device).

   >  >>>

   >  >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[7]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>

   >  >>>

   >  >>>

   >  >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie

   > <[8]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

   >  >>>>

   >  >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit more 
so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles me 
when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets when 
they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they become 
loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be 
rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was 
“the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple 
of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and 
measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review with 
me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me personally, 
spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book 
contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the 
ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons 
for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
<lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: 
Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes 
and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History 
covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear 
and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
<dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

 >>>>
 >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages 
said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

 >>>>
 >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 
1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 >>>>
 >>>> Best,
 >>>> Matthew
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy 
of a true
 >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of

 >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
 >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example 
this

 >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Rainer]

On 08.03.2018 13:18, Martin Shepherd wrote:

I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone temperaments. 
 The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 cents narrow, but in 
meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.

I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning check, but 
only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I often play (as 
arpeggios) a sequence:

c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.

To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are perfect).


Many years ago I checked which tuning methods have perfect octaves and unisons.

That's a simple problem in linear algebra - trivial.

There is only one solution: Equal temperament.

Rainer  




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[spiffys84121]

   It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles me
   when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets when
   they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they become
   loose. Just tighten those frets!

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
   To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

   My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
   time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
   become loose.
   Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
   Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
   and not a flaw.
   I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
   there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
   Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
   But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
   want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
   choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok
   with
   it...
   I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...
   Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
   > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but would be
   rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was
   "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a couple
   of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and
   measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of
   historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute
   sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review with
   me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me personally,
   spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal
   temperament is the norm.
   >
   > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book
   contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the
   ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons
   for solo and ensemble players.
   >
   > Danny
   >
   >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel
   <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:
   >>
   >> There's a different view here:
   >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
   temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
   Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   >>
   >> Andreas
   >>
   >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
   >>>
   >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer
   (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes
   and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History
   covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by
   ear and using a tuning device).
   >>>
   >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
   <dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
   said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
   >>>>
   >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
   1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on
   lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
   use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
   >>>>
   >>>> Best,
   >>>> Matthew
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy
   of a true
   >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
   matter of
   >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this
   forum a
   >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
   this
   >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
   >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> --
   >>
   >> Andreas Schlegel
   >> Eckstr. 6
   >> CH-5737 Menziken
   >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> --
   >
   >
   >
   >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some 
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they 
become loose.

Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color 
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is 
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little 
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might 
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to 
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with 
it...

I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:

I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be rather 
surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was “the frets can 
move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple of years ago but 
glancing through it again there is a balanced and measured weighing of evidence 
including iconography, spacing of historical fixed fret instruments and 
multiple vihuela, viol and lute sources including Galilei. If someone can share 
the entire review with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For 
me personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book contains 
practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the ear and/or a 
commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons for solo and ensemble 
players.

Danny


On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:

There’s a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

Andreas


Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :

For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, theory 
in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

goo.gl/9Aewv2 



On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the same 
thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
comma mean-tone on my lutes).

Best,
Matthew


On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
* [1]Martyn Hodgson 




To get on or off this list see list information at
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--


Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Arto Wikla]

Hi dear fellow lutenists

My experience in many international "master courses" is that those, who 
talk most of this or that tuning, "4th" or "6th" or "equal", are just 
those, who are not the best in the intonation...


Lute is a strange animal: you make compromises, you put tastini, you set 
your frets in different places, and most importantly, you really can 
also effect the pitch by your finger, not as much as the viola di gamba 
players, but yes, you can! :-)


Arto



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

  Perhaps, having movable frets, an appropriate approach would be to
   find some predominant chords in a selection of pieces and tune to those
   chords.  Retune between groupings.  Makes designing a program trickier,
   but possibly with more consistent consonance.  Unless, of course,
   you're aiming for distinctive dissonances to define various modes.

  I'm not trying to promote any particular tuning method--every lute
   and its player are different.  Just playing with ideas for tuning
   toward best outcome.  There's always the chance that after one has
   gotten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
   conditioning.

   Leonard

   Sorry if this is a duplicate mailing

   -Original Message-
   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain
   that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.
   M
   ---
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   [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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References

   1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Daniel Shoskes]

I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be rather 
surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was “the frets can 
move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple of years ago but 
glancing through it again there is a balanced and measured weighing of evidence 
including iconography, spacing of historical fixed fret instruments and 
multiple vihuela, viol and lute sources including Galilei. If someone can share 
the entire review with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For 
me personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book contains 
practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the ear and/or a 
commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons for solo and ensemble 
players.

Danny

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:
> 
> There’s a different view here:
> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
> temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
> Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101 
> 
> Andreas
> 
>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
>> 
>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
>> continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
>> David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, 
>> theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning 
>> device).
>> 
>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
>>> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
>>> 
>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 
>>> comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a 
>>> can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal 
>>> and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Matthew
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
* [1]Martyn Hodgson 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> --
> 
> Andreas Schlegel
> Eckstr. 6
> CH-5737 Menziken
> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I should have added to my comment below that, because tied frets makes
   it easy to have carefully graduated frets and thus to set a lute very
   'fine' indeed (ie with a relatively low distance between the string and
   fingerboard even in high positions), it makes playing considerably
   easier in the higher positions. We also know that this was a preferred
   historic practice.
   MH
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Andreas Schlegel <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>; Daniel Shoskes
   <kidneykut...@gmail.com>
   Cc: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>; lute list
   <Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:25
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 I agree with the review: just because frets could be moved doesn't
   mean
 they were. The historical evidence is thin indeed. Tying frets is a
 very convenient way to fret a lute and, an added advantage, can
   easily
 be replaced when worn.
 MH
   __
 From: Andreas Schlegel <[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
 To: Daniel Shoskes <[2]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
 Cc: Matthew Daillie <[3]dail...@club-internet.fr>; lute list
 <[4]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:02
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 There's a different view here:
 A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
 temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
 Early Music, cax101, [1][5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
 Andreas
 > Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
 <[2][6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
 >
 > For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer
   (solo
 and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and
 Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History
   covered
 in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and
 using a tuning device).
 >
 > goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[3][7]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
 <[4][8]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
 >>
 >> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
 said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
 >>
 >> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it
   on
 lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
 use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
 >>
 >> Best,
 >> Matthew
 >>
 >>
 >> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of
   a
 true
 >>>  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
 matter of
 >>>  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum
   a
 >>>  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
 this
 >>>  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>* [1]Martyn Hodgson <[5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >> [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >
 > --
 Andreas Schlegel
 Eckstr. 6
 CH-5737 Menziken
 Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 [7][11]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 --
 --
   References
 1. [12]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
 2. mailto:[13]kidneykut...@gmail.com
 3. [14]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
 4. mailto:[15]dail...@club-internet.fr
 5. mailto:[16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 6. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 7. mailto:[18]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   2. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   4. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   6. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   7. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
   8. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   9. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
  12. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
  13. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
  14. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
  15. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
  16. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  18. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   Perhaps, having movable frets, an appropriate approach would be to
   find some predominant chords in a selection of pieces and tune to those
   chords.  Retune between groupings.  Makes designing a program trickier,
   but possibly with more consistent consonance.  Unless, of course,
   you're aiming for distinctive dissonances to define various modes.

  I'm not trying to promote any particular tuning method--every lute
   and its player are different.  Just playing with ideas for tuning
   toward best outcome.  There's always the chance that after one has
   gotten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
   conditioning.

   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain
   that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.
   M
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I agree with the review: just because frets could be moved doesn't mean
   they were. The historical evidence is thin indeed. Tying frets is a
   very convenient way to fret a lute and, an added advantage, can easily
   be replaced when worn.
   MH
 __

   From: Andreas Schlegel <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
   To: Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com>
   Cc: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>; lute list
   <Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:02
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   There's a different view here:
   A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
   temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
   Early Music, cax101, [1]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   Andreas
   > Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <[2]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
   >
   > For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo
   and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and
   Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered
   in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and
   using a tuning device).
   >
   > goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[3]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
   >
   >
   >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
   <[4]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
   >>
   >> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
   said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
   >>
   >> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
   1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on
   lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
   use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
   >>
   >> Best,
   >> Matthew
   >>
   >>
   >> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >>>  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a
   true
   >>>  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
   matter of
   >>>  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
   >>>  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
   this
   >>>  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
   >>>* [1]Martyn Hodgson <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   > --
   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [7]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   --

   --

References

   1. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   2. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   3. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
   4. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martin Shepherd]

I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain 
that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.


M


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101 

Andreas

> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
> 
> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
> continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” 
> by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, 
> theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning 
> device).
> 
> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
>> 
>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
>> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
>> 
>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
>> meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
>> worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
>> comma mean-tone on my lutes).
>> 
>> Best,
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> --

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Daniel Shoskes]

For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, theory 
in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

goo.gl/9Aewv2 


> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
> 
> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
> meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
> worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
> comma mean-tone on my lutes).
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
>>meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
>>non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
>>number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
>>some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
>>  * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

reas its much commoner use is
at
  Ab, etc).  You'll have to analyse Kapsberger's diatonic/chromatic
  usage at each fret position to be able to estimate what temperament
he
  employed - when I did it I found equal temparament was generally
  indicated..
  MH
  PS This topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
  this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
  __

From: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
To: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Lute List
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
  Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
  is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
  reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
  agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking
about
  with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
  RA
__
  From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
  of Martin Shepherd <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
  Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:18 PM
  To: Lute List
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone
  temperaments.  The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament,
just
  2
  cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.
  I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning
  check, but only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I
  often play (as arpeggios) a sequence:
  c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.
  To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are
  perfect).
  Martin
  On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:
  >I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check
  perfect
  >fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.
The
  ear
  >tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when
  things
  >get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the
  open
  >strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays
  pretty
  >good, so I don't do this every time I practice.
  >
  >Thanks for your input!
  >Leonard
  >-Original Message-
  >From: Matthew Daillie <[6]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >To: Leonard Williams <[7]arc...@verizon.net>; Lute List
  ><[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  >Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
  >Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
  >Hi Leonard,
  >This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to
me.
  Maybe
  >it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are
  doing
  >when
  >checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of
  your
  >lute).
  >With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure,
beat-less
  major
  >thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal
  temperament
  >thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the
  purity of
  >major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute
  (far
  >less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of
a
  >harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the
  frets
  >based on calculations for your string length. You can use a
  calculator
  >such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will
give
  you
  >the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you
need
  to do
  >is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
  >accordingly. Here's the link:
  >[1][9]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
  >Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra
  frets
  >(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such
  as the
  >first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
  >distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower
than
  Eb
  >flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on
  the lute
  >and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets
  according to
  >the piece you are playing. 

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said 
the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??


Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 
comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).


Best,
Matthew


On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
  * [1]Martyn Hodgson 




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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 * [1]Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
 *
 * 09/01/11 at 2:50 PM

   To[2]Lute Net

   Dear Andrew,
 The problem with a lot of writing about unequal temperament on the
   lute
 is that it's either written by many who base their conclusions almost
 entirely on keyboard practice (where, of course, with individual keys
 one can indeed make a deliberate choice between a chromatic or
   diatonic
 semitone in all octaves) or those who have heard that 'meantone'
   gives
 purer thirds and therefore by asserting this they are somehow
   'better'
 than those inclined to other views.
 Most such writers seem blissfully unaware of the fundemental problems
 that many of the Old Ones themselves squarely faced up to: that by
 having a fret across the fingerboard it is not possible to set up a
 lute in such a meantone (ie on some courses the fret will have to
   stop
 a chromatic note; on another a diatonic one). In a few early pieces
   it
 may be possible to set up a suitable meantone (say 1/6 comma, which
 gives both thirds and fifths roughly the same distance from pure) but
 even here one runs into problems as I pointed out in my original
 reviews (in FoMRHI Quarterly) of Lindley's still unsurpassed book: eg
 Luis Milan does in fact use the first fret for chromatic notes on the
 4th course.
 My own view is that in practice a modest degree of tempering can
   often
 end up with more harmonious results for many pieces - in particular
   by
 moving the second fret a bit towards the nut and the third a bit
 towards the neck (both around an 1/8th commas worth) and then
   tempering
 the open strings accordingly by following the old unison/octave
   tuning
 checks.
 However I'm often outfaced by many late 16th century Italian sources
 which, for example, freely use the first fret on the first course for
   a
 chromatic or a diatonic note! - implying either they had no sense of
 tuning or something pretty close to equal temperament was routinely
 employed (as Lindley concludes).
 Of course there is the red herring that one can use 'tastini' (ie
   small
 additional frets placed against certain fret/courses to allow a
   choice
 of diatonic or chromatic). Even allowing that it's always technically
 possible to employ these and that the buzzing on the paired fret is
 somehow overcome, there is the problem that the sole source which
 mentions these (Vincenzo Galilei - a celebrated thoerist as well as
 practicing lutenist - in 'Fromino Dialogo' 1568,1584)  speaks of the
 practice in a  most disparaging manner:  "Now I come to the
   matter
 of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove
   some
 of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to
 persuade those who are more foolish than they).  but those using
 'tastini' do not know much about thoery". Unsurprisingly, no other
 contemporary lutenists seem to make any reference to such
   affectations.
 David van Ooijen has probably made the best stab at simple
   instructions
 on how to set up a lute for various meantone temperaments (see his
 site) but even he is obliged to fudge the outcome by assuming
 particular diatonic or chromatic settings for certain frets which
   wont
 work in many pieces/keys (eg for a nominal G lute the third fret 4th
 course is given in its G# position whereas its much commoner use is
   at
 Ab, etc).  You'll have to analyse Kapsberger's diatonic/chromatic
 usage at each fret position to be able to estimate what temperament
   he
 employed - when I did it I found equal temparament was generally
 indicated..
 MH
 PS This topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
 this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
 __

   From: Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
   To: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Lute List
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
 Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
 is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
 reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
 agree with Galilei, who was one smart fe

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   I'm sure I never get things really perfect--there's also the chance
   that further up the string some falseness will intrude, or I'm just not
   hearing beats that are there.  Nevertheless, I do keep trying to make
   it sound nice.  And I've found that my lute, when well tuned, actually
   sounds louder (from more sympathetic vibes?).

   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
   To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 8:04 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you
   are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure'
   fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths
   in
   the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are
   tempered.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:
   > I should have added--it seems to work quite well. I check perfect
   > fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

You are confusing two totally different things Ron and your comment is 
completely misleading.


Of course major thirds can be pure. When the corresponding harmonics of 
the two notes constituting a major third are aligned, then the interval 
is pure. This is a physical, acoustical phenomenon.


Dissonance and consonance are something else and to an extent depict a 
subjective stance. The intervals considered to be dissonant were not the 
same in different periods. In medieval music, intervals other than 
unisons, fourths, fifths and octaves were considered dissonant. Fifths 
and fourths were sung (and played) pure. Thirds and sixths were not used 
as they are today to provide harmonic texture. The thirds in Pythagorean 
tuning (which featured pure fifths except for one wolf fifth) were far 
from pure and so sounded very dissonant. In Renaissance music, thirds 
and sixths became the essential building blocks and were considered 
consonant. Dissonance required preparing and resolving the dissonant 
intervals which were not at all the same as those in medieval times.


Whether you like it or not, the choice of temperament impacts upon the 
musical result. You cannot play a lute without tuning it to a particular 
temperament. You can tune it to equal temperament if you like, and there 
is historical evidence for equal temperament having been used in the 
16th century, but hopefully it is an informed choice on your part.


We have a lot to learn from keyboard players and their various 
instruments just as they probably have a lot to learn from us. After 
all, the repertoire was clearly intertwined for several centuries. To 
dismiss temperament as 'keyboard-centric mucking around' is verging on 
obscurantism.


Best,

Matthew

- On 08/03/2018 13:38, Ron Andrico wrote:

And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking about
with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
RA





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you 
are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure' 
fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths in 
the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are 
tempered.


Best,

Matthew

On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:

  I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martin Shepherd]

I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone 
temperaments.  The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 
cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.


I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning 
check, but only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I 
often play (as arpeggios) a sequence:


c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.

To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are 
perfect).


Martin

On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:

I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.  The ear
tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when things
get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the open
strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays pretty
good, so I don't do this every time I practice.

Thanks for your input!
Leonard
-Original Message-
From: Matthew Daillie 
To: Leonard Williams ; Lute List

Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
Hi Leonard,
This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing
when
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your
lute).
With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major
thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament
thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of
major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far
less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a
harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets
based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator
such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you
the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do
is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
accordingly. Here's the link:
[1]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets
(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the
first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb
flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute
and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to
the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest
tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the
other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel
comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4
comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys.
The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good
your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are
playing.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Matthew
can use a pr
On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:
> Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
wondering about others' related experiences. My 8 course is nominally
in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the
music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner for an instrument
in F instead of C. Thus when I tune the g, the readout is d, etc. I've
also found that using a chord consisting of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th,
and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those frets.
> Any similar experiences?
>
> Best to all,
> Leonard Williams

--

References

1. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets


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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
   fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.  The ear
   tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when things
   get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the open
   strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays pretty
   good, so I don't do this every time I practice.

   Thanks for your input!
   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To: Leonard Williams ; Lute List
   
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
   Hi Leonard,
   This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe
   it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing
   when
   checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your
   lute).
   With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major
   thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament
   thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of
   major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far
   less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a
   harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets
   based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator
   such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you
   the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do
   is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
   accordingly. Here's the link:
   [1]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
   Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets
   (tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the
   first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
   distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb
   flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute
   and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to
   the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest
   tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the
   other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel
   comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4
   comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys.
   The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good
   your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are
   playing.
   Hope this helps.
   Best,
   Matthew
   can use a pr
   On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:
   > Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
   wondering about others' related experiences. My 8 course is nominally
   in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the
   music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner for an instrument
   in F instead of C. Thus when I tune the g, the readout is d, etc. I've
   also found that using a chord consisting of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th,
   and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those frets.
   > Any similar experiences?
   >
   > Best to all,
   > Leonard Williams

   --

References

   1. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Leonard,

This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe 
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing when 
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your lute).


With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major 
thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament 
thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of 
major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far 
less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a 
harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets 
based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator 
such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you 
the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do 
is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets 
accordingly. Here's the link:


https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets

Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets 
(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the 
first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone 
distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb 
flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute 
and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to 
the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest 
tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the 
other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel 
comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4 
comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys. 
The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good 
your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are playing.


Hope this helps.

Best,

Matthew

can use a pr

On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:

Here’s a tuning method I’ve been experimenting with, and I’m wondering about 
others’ related experiences.  My 8 course is nominally in g (i.e., g treble), 
1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the music I play is in flat keys, I set 
my Peterson tuner for an instrument in F instead of C.  Thus when I tune the g, 
the readout is d, etc.  I’ve also found that using a chord consisting of fret d 
on 3rd, e on 4th, and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those 
frets.
Any similar experiences?

Best to all,
Leonard Williams





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[David van Ooijen]

I use it in some Kapsberger pieces I play as intermezzi in recitals
with singers with early 17th century Italian repertoire. For this
repertoire I tune (1/4 comma) mean tone. I like it.

David

On 20 June 2012 05:22, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com wrote:
   A question to the theorbo experts: does meantone tuning works fine for
   theorbo's solo repertoire? I'm refering mostly to 17th century Italian
   composers.  For continuo it seems to be fine as you can manage the
   fingerings for a better intonation.



   Any advice will be welcomed.
   --

   Bruno Correia



   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --


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-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David Tayler]

David's is the only one I have measured that works, but perhaps some 
of the other ones work.
dt

At 11:58 AM 2/8/2009, you wrote:
Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will 
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It 
will give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths
it is worth looking at!
Charles
Thanks. Found it and punched in the string length. Even easier than 
multiplying by 43. But  - so much choice. Any advice on a 
temperament for second half of fifteenth century?


Stuart







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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Stuart Walsh]

David van Ooijen wrote:

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
  

Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
in meantone, for a given string length?



Stuart

It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string length with.

http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html

David


  
Thanks. That is just what I wanted. I thought there might be some 
intractable mathematical equations involved. I'm trying to calculate 
meantone fretting for an instrument of 43cms and even I can multiply by 43!

Thanks again.


Stuart




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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Charles Browne]

Stuart Walsh wrote:


David van Ooijen wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com 
wrote:
 
Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret 
positions,

in meantone, for a given string length?



Stuart

It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string length with.

http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html

David


  
Thanks. That is just what I wanted. I thought there might be some 
intractable mathematical equations involved. I'm trying to calculate 
meantone fretting for an instrument of 43cms and even I can multiply 
by 43!

Thanks again.


Stuart




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There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will 
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will 
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths

it is worth looking at!
Charles

[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Stuart Walsh]

Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will 
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will 
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths

it is worth looking at!
Charles

Thanks. Found it and punched in the string length. Even easier than 
multiplying by 43. But  - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament 
for second half of fifteenth century?



Stuart








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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Sean Smith]

Stuart,

Try the 1/4 comma to start; the thinking being to overdo the change so  
you can more easily define its differences. You can always scale back  
to 1/6 and compare. If you go the 1/4 comma route you may want to play  
your lower F#s on the 6th G fret till you get a tastino, at least for  
single line stuff.


If you want to immerse yourself in meantone for a little while, try it  
w/ your regular ren lute as well. It may be easier to hear the 3rds and  
6ths working together in registers you're more familiar with.


Avoid a lot of flats for now.

If your descant has a significantly wider bridge than nut then you may  
have problems as you shift the 4th fret 'north'. (It may buzz w/ the  
lack of tension or just be plain too loose). you may need to shim it a  
bit.


You may eventually want to settle into 1/6 comma which isn't so drastic  
and gives more modulating elasticity.


Sean


On Feb 8, 2009, at 11:58 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:


Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will  
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will  
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths

it is worth looking at!
Charles

Thanks. Found it and punched in the string length. Even easier than  
multiplying by 43. But  - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament  
for second half of fifteenth century?



Stuart




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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David Rastall]

On the subject of fret placement, what about fret placement on the
Baroque lute?

Davidr
dlu...@verizon.net




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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Roman Turovsky]

Yes, especially for that Falkenhagen Prelude.
RT

From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net



On the subject of fret placement, what about fret placement on the
Baroque lute?

Davidr
dlu...@verizon.net




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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[Charles Browne]

Stuart Walsh wrote:


Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will 
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will 
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths

it is worth looking at!
Charles

Thanks. Found it and punched in the string length. Even easier than 
multiplying by 43. But  - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament 
for second half of fifteenth century?



Stuart








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glad you found it! I wouldn't dare comment on temperament but I am sure 
that one of the experts can tell us?

charles



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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David van Ooijen]

 Stuart Walsh wrote:
 multiplying by 43. But  - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament for
 second half of fifteenth century?

For earlier music, Ars Nova and Trecento, I use Pythagorean
temperament. It was a surpsrise to me how much Italian early 16th
century music I still could play with that temperament. Perhaps you
could give that a try, too.

Here's how to move your frets:
http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/pythagoras_f.html

David



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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David van Ooijen]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
 in meantone, for a given string length?

Stuart

It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string length with.

http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html

David


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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David Tayler]

I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe 
him a beer for life.
dt

At 02:53 PM 2/7/2009, you wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
  Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
  in meantone, for a given string length?

Stuart

It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string length with.

http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html

David


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[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements

[David van Ooijen]

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe
 him a beer for life.

I'll take you up on that one!

David - just wondering: won't that give a headache for life?


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[LUTE] Re: Meantone puzzle+Loaded

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Mathias, and All
	What you say below (about 6th comma being incompatible with French  
Baroque ) is entirely convincing, and indeed, Benjamin Narvey  
(musicologist, specializing in the area of French Baroque music), who  
I met yesterday, told me exactly the same thing, and said he would  
probably want to put my lute back to ET before playing. (as Martin  
Shepherd also explained  it does seem to be more of a nuisance  
having the first fret high (Gb rather than F#) because the problem is  
not only on the fourth course but on the first as well.  So playing a  
D major chord with the third at the top (on the first fret, first  
course) can be an uncomfortable experience).
I can only say that B. made very beautiful music flow from my lute,  
and he commented that for whatever reason, and he couldn't understand  
why, 6th comma seemed to be working on this lute.


Benjamin played a programme of French to German Baroque on it. The  
only real change he thought I should make, was to lower the pitch  
from 415 to 392, to have slightly thicker trebles.
I entirely agree with this, and that was actually what I had ordered  
originally from Stephen, but I forgot to make this clear at the time  
he strung the lute.
I know several French French Baroque players, who use synthetics and  
yet who still prefer 392, so it is not just to save gut trebles,  
although that would be useful. Indeed, the following day, I could  
hear that treble had gone false, and I think that was why Benjamin  
had not found the treble on my lute entirely convincing  (the day  
before, a visiting French musician had found the treble was the best  
thing about tit, that and the pegs).


However, Benjamin was entirely convinced by the loaded strings; he  
thought they were working wonderfully. Nevertheless, if you do try  
them, be patient, as Stephen G. was not particularly impressed during  
the three days he had my lute just after having strung it. They have  
now been on the lute for about a week, and have really begun to bloom.


I will put some photos of Benjamin trying my lute and comparing it  
with his Martin Haycock, shortly, on Ning Lute.


	The French Baroque lutist (and lute collector), who tried my lute  
before Benjamin, always uses equal temperament, even for Renaissance  
music. He was also surprised to find nothing wrong with the 6th  
comma. I am not saying that it was ideal (as we did not try ET), but  
at least for these two very different musicians they did not feel  
there was anything unacceptably wrong. Both lutists said how  
wonderful the peg action was, and remarked that at last they actually  
began enjoying tuning.


At first, the French lutist was not all that impressed by the loaded  
strings (he is not a gut user), but after playing a while he seemed  
to realize how clearly they were allowing the other voices to express  
themselves. He adapted very quickly to them, and did not have the  
sort of problem you would usually associate with someone going from  
wirewounds to gut basses.
He finally left saying they were good, but that with his 32 lutes, he  
was certainly not going to change over from wirewounds.


Nevertheless, I think if a wirewound user is thinking about using gut  
basses, then they should consider trying the new loaded strings: they  
are not far from the thickness of a wirewound, and another advantage  
is that, once they have stabilized, they do not seem to suffer so  
much from the usual fluctuations due to humidity, perhaps because of  
the copper cladding.
However, for some one already used to pure gut basses, they will have  
to decide for themselves which sound-type they prefer, as presumably  
they will have come to terms with the thickness of pure gut basses,  
or use very low tension, or some type of bass extended lute to get  
round that problem.


Personally, I  wouldn't part with them. If they were quite good on my  
7c lute, I feel they are really excellent on my 11c. Now, I must be  
cautious (I dare say that as we found the 6 comma somehow acceptable  
on my Baroque lute, you may judge us all cloth eared anyway). Also,  
I repeat, please do be patient, if you try them. Wait at least a week  
to allow them time to come fully up to tension, and to thin-out, and  
harden up. Initially they are a little soft and silk string like.  
This however disappears, and you end up with a very dark but Venice  
type sound.  So of course, if you don't like the Venice sound,  
preferring  the very focussed taut projection of a high-twist over  
the good high frequence harmonic presence in a Venice (as a number of  
lutists on our list have recently told me they do), then these loaded  
strings may not be your particular cup of tea.
Indeed, I stress this, because just like tea or coffee, we become  
used to the particular string-type, its qualities and defects, if we  
use them regularly (even wirewounds), we do learn to ignore their  
failings, while we cling desperately to their 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Martyn Hodgson]

Stewart,

Yes, Simpson is indeed the only other source (to Galilei who disparages them) 
to mention any such additional intermediate fret ('tastini'). However, isn't he 
saying that for an isolated chord the sound may be 'sweeter' but that in a 
practical situation where one is obliged to modulate it's not really of any 
help.

If they were at all common why don't we see them in iconography?

Martyn


--- On Wed, 18/6/08, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE] Meantone
 To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 18 June, 2008, 10:57 PM
 Dear Jean-Marie,
 
 You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the
 ground, so all
 the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by
 Christopher
 Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an
 extra first fret
 by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern
 edition of
 the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord
 (Oxford: Basil
 Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51:
 
 I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in
 harpsichords and
 organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top
 or nut of a
 viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in
 some cases for
 the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those
 places; but I
 do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein
 concerned, seeing
 those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and
 seldom that
 any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note.
 
 He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of
 wind
 instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike
 players of
 keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted
 instruments
 sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys,
 must surely
 mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This
 passage is so
 important in relation to the present discussion, that I
 feel it is worth
 reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of
 their length:
 
 Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of
 music, taking it
 with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in
 the wit of man
 to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for
 practical music.
 And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them)
 for want of a
 better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale,
 whose office
 and design is no more than to denote the distances of the
 concords and
 discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth
 consist, and
 to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may
 rise and
 fall.
 
 For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived,
 neither do they
 occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and
 wind instruments
 where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger;
 but in such
 only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and
 fitted for the
 most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we
 change to keys
 less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of
 the inequality
 of tones and semitones, especially of the latter.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart.
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
 To: lute
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
 
 Dear David,
 
 Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of
 your
 assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the
 general
 enthusiasm regardin the so-called tastini. As a
 matter of fact, I know
 only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's
 Fronimo. One late
 sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence
 to
 acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT
 tuning
 problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't
 you think ?
 Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining
 clearly this
 practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland,
 Praetorius, Mersenne
 (more or less in chronological order) do not mention this
 technique for
 tuning their lutes properly. 
 The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who
 like all
 harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as
 an imperfect
 instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations)
 that I sent
 earlier in the day speaks of placing frets en pied de
 mouche, i.e. in
 a broken line, (staggered as Mark Lindley
 translates in his book
 Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984),
 not slanted at
 all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that
 this can be
 done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed
 accordingly...
 Hardly tastini or very drastic ones indeed. 
 It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for
 some citterns
 and maybe bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were
 metal-strung, not
 gut-strung, and doesn't this make a difference in terms
 of practical
 intonation ?
 
 Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in
 favour of a more
 or less

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Rob MacKillop]

 If they were at all common why don't we see them in iconography?

 There is indeed a painting which clearly shows tastini - but I can't
remember where I saw it! Sorry...

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Martyn Hodgson]

Thank you Rob, I'd be interested to see the picture. However, I should have 
said 'why don't we frequently see them in iconography?'

Martyn


--- On Thu, 19/6/08, Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thursday, 19 June, 2008, 7:34 AM
 
  If they were at all common why don't we see them
 in iconography?
 
  There is indeed a painting which clearly shows tastini
 - but I can't
 remember where I saw it! Sorry...
 
 Rob
 
 --
 
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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Sauvage Valéry]

Excellent...
Link again 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0

(the first link was not good)
V.

-Message d'origine-
De : dc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Envoyé : jeudi 19 juin 2008 09:07
À : lute
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Meantone


Jean-Marie Poirier écrit:

Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or 
less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or 
viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other tuner ;-) 
usually is recommended to be given the last word, which, after all, 
sounds very reasonnable to me.

See also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0feature=email

Dennis




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Of course, the ideal link ! I really love that clip :-)))

Jean-Marie

PS : by the way, I did not mean to imply that only ivory could be used for 
tastini. It's Jean DEnis who in 1601 wrote that ivory can be used to that 
purpose on fretted instruments. Not a nuance, a gap ;-))  

=== 19-06-2008 09:46:39 ===

Of course, the ideal link ! I really love that clip :-)))

Jean-Marie

PS : by the way, I did not mean to imply that only ivory could be used for 
tastini. It's Jean DEnis who in 1601 wrote that ivory can be used to that 
purpose on fretted instruments. Not a nuance, a gap ;-))  

=== 19-06-2008 09:07:17 ===

Jean-Marie Poirier écrit:

Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or 
less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or 
viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other tuner ;-) 
usually is recommended to be given the last word, which, after all, 
sounds very reasonnable to me.

See also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0feature=email

Dennis




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Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
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http://poirierjm.free.fr
19-06-2008 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
19-06-2008 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

David, I did not mean to imply that only ivory was used for tastini. It's 
Jean Denis who in 1601 wrote that ivory can be used to that purpose on 
fretted instruments. Not a nuance, a gap ;-))  

Jean-Marie, apologies accepted ! :-))

=== 19-06-2008 01:01:22 ===


I don't think the evidence is thin: I think the evidence is 
substantial; however I consider the weight of the evidence to show 
that the practice was uncommon--but important, worth debating.

In other words the thinness is in the number of people who 
practiced the technique, rather than in the solid evidence that it was used.
Actually, I wish I could be thinner as well; it can be a good thing.

As for the staggered frets only being made of ivory, that seems a 
bit of a stretch. I love the expression en pied de mouche, though, 
if it really means fly-steps--It could mean almost anything, I think
perhaps a bunch of tastini would look like flysteps, like viewing 
theorbos from the moon.
Not to mention the Locke meantone piece for Trois Mouche-quetaires.

Apologies in advance,

dt



At 02:57 PM 6/18/2008, you wrote:
Dear Jean-Marie,

You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the ground, so all
the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by Christopher
Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an extra first fret
by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern edition of
the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51:

I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in harpsichords and
organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top or nut of a
viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in some cases for
the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those places; but I
do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein concerned, seeing
those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and seldom that
any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note.

He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of wind
instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike players of
keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted instruments
sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys, must surely
mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This passage is so
important in relation to the present discussion, that I feel it is worth
reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of their length:

Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of music, taking it
with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in the wit of man
to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for practical music.
And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them) for want of a
better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale, whose office
and design is no more than to denote the distances of the concords and
discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth consist, and
to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may rise and
fall.

For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived, neither do they
occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and wind instruments
where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger; but in such
only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and fitted for the
most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we change to keys
less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality
of tones and semitones, especially of the latter.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of your
assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the general
enthusiasm regardin the so-called tastini. As a matter of fact, I know
only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's Fronimo. One late
sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence to
acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT tuning
problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't you think ?
Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining clearly this
practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland, Praetorius, Mersenne
(more or less in chronological order) do not mention this technique for
tuning their lutes properly.
The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who like all
harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as an imperfect
instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations) that I sent
earlier in the day speaks of placing frets en pied de mouche, i.e. in
a broken line, (staggered as Mark Lindley translates in his book
Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984), not slanted at
all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that this can be
done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

 Dear Stewart,

Thank you again for all these precisions. I will be digging into my 
Compendium again !!!

All the best from cloudy western France,

Jean-Marie

=== 18-06-2008 23:57:34 ===


Dear Jean-Marie,

You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the ground, so all
the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by Christopher
Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an extra first fret
by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern edition of
the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51:

I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in harpsichords and
organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top or nut of a
viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in some cases for
the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those places; but I
do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein concerned, seeing
those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and seldom that
any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note.

He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of wind
instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike players of
keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted instruments
sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys, must surely
mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This passage is so
important in relation to the present discussion, that I feel it is worth
reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of their length:

Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of music, taking it
with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in the wit of man
to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for practical music.
And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them) for want of a
better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale, whose office
and design is no more than to denote the distances of the concords and
discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth consist, and
to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may rise and
fall.

For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived, neither do they
occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and wind instruments
where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger; but in such
only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and fitted for the
most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we change to keys
less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality
of tones and semitones, especially of the latter.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of your
assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the general
enthusiasm regardin the so-called tastini. As a matter of fact, I know
only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's Fronimo. One late
sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence to
acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT tuning
problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't you think ?
Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining clearly this
practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland, Praetorius, Mersenne
(more or less in chronological order) do not mention this technique for
tuning their lutes properly. 
The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who like all
harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as an imperfect
instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations) that I sent
earlier in the day speaks of placing frets en pied de mouche, i.e. in
a broken line, (staggered as Mark Lindley translates in his book
Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984), not slanted at
all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that this can be
done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed accordingly...
Hardly tastini or very drastic ones indeed. 
It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for some citterns
and maybe bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were metal-strung, not
gut-strung, and doesn't this make a difference in terms of practical
intonation ?

Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more
or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like
lutes or viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other
tuner ;-) usually is recommended to be given the last word, which,
after all, sounds very reasonnable to me.

All the best,

Jean-Marie 




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Anthony Hind]

Do we see any examples of split double frets playing the same role?  
Actually, I was very surprised how close you have to look at the  
fretting to see that it is double.

Non split double fretting would perhaps not figure in a painting.
Anthony

Le 19 juin 08 à 08:22, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :



Stewart,

Yes, Simpson is indeed the only other source (to Galilei who  
disparages them) to mention any such additional intermediate fret  
('tastini'). However, isn't he saying that for an isolated chord  
the sound may be 'sweeter' but that in a practical situation where  
one is obliged to modulate it's not really of any help.


If they were at all common why don't we see them in iconography?

Martyn


--- On Wed, 18/6/08, Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [LUTE] Meantone
To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 18 June, 2008, 10:57 PM
Dear Jean-Marie,

You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the
ground, so all
the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by
Christopher
Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an
extra first fret
by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern
edition of
the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord
(Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51:

I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in
harpsichords and
organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top
or nut of a
viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in
some cases for
the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those
places; but I
do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein
concerned, seeing
those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and
seldom that
any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note.

He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of
wind
instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike
players of
keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted
instruments
sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys,
must surely
mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This
passage is so
important in relation to the present discussion, that I
feel it is worth
reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of
their length:

Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of
music, taking it
with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in
the wit of man
to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for
practical music.
And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them)
for want of a
better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale,
whose office
and design is no more than to denote the distances of the
concords and
discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth
consist, and
to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may
rise and
fall.

For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived,
neither do they
occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and
wind instruments
where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger;
but in such
only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and
fitted for the
most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we
change to keys
less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of
the inequality
of tones and semitones, especially of the latter.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of
your
assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the
general
enthusiasm regardin the so-called tastini. As a
matter of fact, I know
only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's
Fronimo. One late
sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence
to
acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT
tuning
problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't
you think ?
Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining
clearly this
practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland,
Praetorius, Mersenne
(more or less in chronological order) do not mention this
technique for
tuning their lutes properly.
The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who
like all
harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as
an imperfect
instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations)
that I sent
earlier in the day speaks of placing frets en pied de
mouche, i.e. in
a broken line, (staggered as Mark Lindley
translates in his book
Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984),
not slanted at
all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that
this can be
done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed
accordingly...
Hardly tastini or very drastic ones indeed.
It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for
some citterns
and maybe bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were
metal-strung, not
gut

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Anthony Hind]

Perhaps, someone else can remember for you. It would be interesting  
to see whether it resembles how Tastini are done today.

Anthony

Le 19 juin 08 à 08:34, Rob MacKillop a écrit :







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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Howard,

This difficulty that you mention was obviously the reason why so many witnesses 
complain about the problems raised by associating keyboards and fretted 
instruments at the time. Yet they did perform together, so they obviously found 
compromises, and what is a tuning, any tuning, if not a compromise ? Some are 
more satisfactory than others but none is universal and none can claim anything 
like perfection. It all depends on the purpose and the context. 
Meantone is only one possibility among others, including equal, pyhtagorean, 
you name it, and the rest is a question of ear, sensitivity, expressivity 
(maybe this is a creation ;-) and good taste. 
My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever prevail in 
that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be, will ever reconcile what 
was has, after all, never been reconciled by our predecessors in the 16th - 
18th centuries. It is not a clear-cut matter with certainties and final 
conclusions : doubts, doubts, and experiments...

All the best,

Jean-Marie


=== 18-06-2008 23:24:06 ===


On Jun 18, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a  
 more or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments  
 like lutes or viols,

As far as I know, the historical evidence consists mostly of:

1) Actual instructions for fretting the instruments, which describe  
unequal temperament;

2) Theorists implying equal fretting; and

3) Metal-fretted instruments all in unequal temperament.

It's difficult to reconcile the second category with the other two.


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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Tremendous!

Eugene

At 03:07 AM 6/19/2008, dc wrote:

Jean-Marie Poirier écrit:

Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or 
less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or 
viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other tuner ;-) 
usually is recommended to be given the last word, which, after all, 
sounds very reasonnable to me.


See also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0feature=email

Dennis




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[jslute]

Dear All:
 Just for the record, my tenor cittern (by Forrester) has what resemble 
tastini, little frets that allow in-tune F-sharp and C-sharp, a few millimeters 
below the main frets.
Cheers,
Jim



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Roman Turovsky]

From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever
prevail in that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be,
will ever reconcile what was has, after all, never been reconciled
by our predecessors in the 16th - 18th centuries.


Perhaps more accurate to say our predecessors doubtless resolved
tuning questions in different ways, just as we do. There must have
been, for example, a standard Dresden court orchestra way to tune or
Hamburg opera way to tune.
Which could be too far from ET, considering the number of key an opera or an 
oratorio goes through.
A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D major to Bb 
major. There goes meantone out the window.
RT 





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[howard posner]

On Jun 19, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D  
 major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.

I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who  
keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone have no problems  
playing in D and Bb without resetting frets.
--

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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Roman Turovsky]

From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Jun 19, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D  
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.


I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who  
keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone have no problems  
playing in D and Bb without resetting frets.

In the same piece?
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Roman Turovsky]

A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D  
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.


I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who  
keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone have no problems  
playing in D and Bb without resetting frets.

In the same piece?
RT

You gotta be kiddin '-
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/muffat/sonata.pdf
RT




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[David Tayler]

Both keyboard instruments with split keys and fretted instruments 
with extra frets (either full extra frets or tastini, as both 
existed) are able to play the enharmonic shifts.
All is possible; not all is desirable.

I think what one sees in the adjustments to instruments is that full 
enharmonics enjoyed a bit of a vogue, but then practicality settles in,
and you see quite a number of organs with a few split keys. And the 
ones with ALL split keys disappear.
And this goes pretty much with the music--it is really nice to have B 
Major and C minor, but no one really needs the G flat.
Even in the Muffat example, with just one split key one can easily 
play the D Major and B Flat major in a variety of temperaments.
Even with just lowering the sixth fret one can play high-low solutions.

I think the real question for me is as follows--
Am I missing something by not using meantone (or modified meantone) 
for 17th century music?
And the answer for me is, Yes, Es Muss Sein. (Beethoven, 1826)
Practically, it more often is que sera sera (Livingston, 1956)
YMMV

When you get to Handel and Locatelli, where you really DO need the G 
flat, it is clear that the rules have changed, and you are better off 
with Neidhardt 24 or even Handel's own temperament, which no one uses 
for Handel.

What you have then is kind of a breaking point for the number of extra keys.


dt



I At 08:18 AM 6/19/2008, you wrote:
From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever
prevail in that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be,
will ever reconcile what was has, after all, never been reconciled
by our predecessors in the 16th - 18th centuries.

Perhaps more accurate to say our predecessors doubtless resolved
tuning questions in different ways, just as we do. There must have
been, for example, a standard Dresden court orchestra way to tune or
Hamburg opera way to tune.
Which could be too far from ET, considering the number of key an 
opera or an oratorio goes through.
A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D 
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Roman Turovsky]

I had a closer look at the sonata, and it (DM) goes through: F#m, Cm, CM, 
FM, AbM, Gm and BbM. There are no section breaks to adjust anything.

Only a true masochist would do this in any non-ET abomination.
RT
- Original Message - 
From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone



Both keyboard instruments with split keys and fretted instruments
with extra frets (either full extra frets or tastini, as both
existed) are able to play the enharmonic shifts.
All is possible; not all is desirable.

I think what one sees in the adjustments to instruments is that full
enharmonics enjoyed a bit of a vogue, but then practicality settles in,
and you see quite a number of organs with a few split keys. And the
ones with ALL split keys disappear.
And this goes pretty much with the music--it is really nice to have B
Major and C minor, but no one really needs the G flat.
Even in the Muffat example, with just one split key one can easily
play the D Major and B Flat major in a variety of temperaments.
Even with just lowering the sixth fret one can play high-low solutions.

I think the real question for me is as follows--
Am I missing something by not using meantone (or modified meantone)
for 17th century music?
And the answer for me is, Yes, Es Muss Sein. (Beethoven, 1826)
Practically, it more often is que sera sera (Livingston, 1956)
YMMV

When you get to Handel and Locatelli, where you really DO need the G
flat, it is clear that the rules have changed, and you are better off
with Neidhardt 24 or even Handel's own temperament, which no one uses
for Handel.

What you have then is kind of a breaking point for the number of extra 
keys.



dt



I At 08:18 AM 6/19/2008, you wrote:

From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever
prevail in that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be,
will ever reconcile what was has, after all, never been reconciled
by our predecessors in the 16th - 18th centuries.


Perhaps more accurate to say our predecessors doubtless resolved
tuning questions in different ways, just as we do. There must have
been, for example, a standard Dresden court orchestra way to tune or
Hamburg opera way to tune.

Which could be too far from ET, considering the number of key an
opera or an oratorio goes through.
A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear Stewart and all,

I am not a great enthusiast of meantone temperament as a result of my readings 
of concordant theoretical sources which do not seem to advocate this particular 
tuning, and of my experience in consort playing. Of course, I do use it when 
requested to, no problem, but not so often after all.  And I would like to have 
your opinion about this passage from Jean Denis, Traité de l'accord de 
l'espinette, Paris : Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO it's much 
better to approach this sort of text in its original language), one among 
several of the same period on the same subject :

Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons, et trois sortes de semi-tons, 
sçavoir ton majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi trois sortes de 
semi-tons, semi-ton majeur, semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est 
point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le 
ton mineur, il est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un semi-ton mineur plus 
foible que le ton majeur: 
Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en nostre accord Harmonique, il ne 
[-p.12-] se trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen: la difference des 
deux accords est, qu'en l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny semi-ton 
majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux 
nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce 
faisant on hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les semi-tons sont égaux. Or 
estant en l'assemblée de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord que je 
trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude à l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et 
que personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me respondirent que ie n'y estois 
pas accoustumé.
Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un festin de viandes amères et de 
mauvais goust, et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont ils se 
pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas 
accoustumez, ce ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien recevable, je voulus 
sçavoir à quoy cet accord estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette me 
dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que 
tous les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le 
nostre avec le Luth et la Viole.
Je luy dis qu'il avoit mauvaise raison de vouloir gaster le bon et parfait 
accord pour l'accommoder à des Instruments imparfaits, et qu'il falloit 
plustost chercher la perfection du Luth et de la Viole, et trouver le moyen de 
faire que les semi-tons fussent majeurs et mineurs, comme nous les avons sur 
l'Espinette, ce qui ne se peut faire avec les touches des cordes dont on touche 
les Luths, pource qu'il faudroit qu'elles fussent faites en pieds de mousches; 
ce qui se peut faire par le moyen des touches d'yvoire, que lon peut mettre par 
le compas et par la proportion du Monochorde, et par ce moyen on accordera le 
Luth et la Viole, avec l'Espinnette, dans l'accord [-p.13-] musical et 
harmonique...

In other words, it looks as if : keyboard intruments = meantone temperamen ; 
fretted instruments (lutes and viols) = equal temperament it seems...

All the best,

Jean-Marie


=== 18-06-2008 11:40:45 ===


Dear Anthony,

In writing close to equal temperament, I was deliberately a little
vague, because I have the frets on the baroque lute and guitar more or
less equally spaced, but I haven't measured anything exactly. I use a
tuning box and my ear. I think that's what they usually did in the past,
but without the box.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 18 June 2008 10:29
To: Stewart McCoy
Subject: Re: [LUTE] New Baroque lute/Meantone

Stewart
   Could you make your close to equal temperament a little more
precise.
Perhaps that is not possible if you do it entirely by ear.
Anthony




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[jslute]

Dear All:
 Perhaps we should bear in mind that fixed-fret instruments such as citterns 
and bandoras certainly used meantone temperaments -- just take a look at 
surviving instruments -- and that any gut-fret instruments that played with 
them would probably have adjusted to  that tuning.
Cheers,
Jim

From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/06/18 Wed AM 07:33:45 CDT
To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Meantone

Dear Jean-Marie,

Many thanks for this interesting passage. It confirms what I was saying, i.e. 
that keyboard instruments were tuned with unequal semitones, that the lute and 
viol were tuned in equal temperament, and that fretted instruments were 
regarded as inferior, because they were in equal temperament.

There is however, a problem when fretted instruments and keyboard instruments 
are played together. In your passage, the solution of tuning keyboard 
instruments to equal temperament is rejected as unsatisfactory. It should be 
the other way round, i.e. fretted instruments tuning to the keyboard. A lute or 
viol cannot be fretted 100% in a meantone temperament, but one can get pretty 
close, give or take a few dodgy enharmonics. I assume Denis' ivory frets are 
what some of us call tastini now.

The question I would like answering, is how were viols fretted, when they 
played consort music to the organ. On page 242 of _Musick's Monument_, Thomas 
Mace says that the main job of an organ is to help keep the viols in tune:

Because the Organ stands us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; 
and is as a Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the 
Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, c.

If the viols and organ were in different temperaments, the last thing an 
equally-tempered viol player would want, is an unequally tempered organ telling 
him he was out of tune all the time. I conclude from Mace's remark, that viols 
playing in consort with an organ, would have adjusted their frets as close as 
they could to match the temperament of the organ.

In this context, I continue my speculation that baroque lutes (in all their 
various tunings) were not played with keyboard instruments, because there were 
too many problems getting the instruments in tune with each other. I am aware 
that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute and lute, but they are very much 
the exception. A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but a good player 
can bend notes a little to alter the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot 
do.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear Stewart and all,

I am not a great enthusiast of meantone temperament as a result of my readings 
of concordant theoretical sources which do not seem to advocate this particular 
tuning, and of my experience in consort playing. Of course, I do use it when 
requested to, no problem, but not so often after all.  And I would like to have 
your opinion about this passage from Jean Denis, Traité de l'accord de 
l'espinette, Paris : Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO it's much 
better to approach this sort of text in its original language), one among 
several of the same period on the same subject :

Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons, et trois sortes de semi-tons, 
sçavoir ton majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi trois sortes de 
semi-tons, semi-ton majeur, semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est 
point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le 
ton mineur, il est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un semi-ton mineur plus 
foible que le ton majeur: 
Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en nostre accord Harmonique, il ne 
[-p.12-] se trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen: la difference des 
deux accords est, qu'en l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny semi-ton 
majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux 
nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce 
faisant on hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les semi-tons sont égaux. Or 
estant en l'assemblée de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord que je 
trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude à l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et 
que personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me respondirent que ie n'y estois 
pas accoustumé.
Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un festin de viandes amères et de 
mauvais goust, et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont ils se 
pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas 
accoustumez, ce ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien recevable, je voulus 
sçavoir à quoy cet accord estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette me 
dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que 
tous les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le 
nostre avec le

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[David Tayler]

Jean-Marie is of course absolutely correct that 
there are contemporaneous accounts advocating 
various distinctions and even clashes of the 
differing temperaments for keyboard and fretted instruments,
and there were at various times accounts that 
these clashes were good or necessary.
However, the past is a mixed bag, and when I do a 
concert in meantone, or modified meantone, there 
are times when I want it to be delightfully in 
tune, as opposed to delightfully out-of-tune.
And for this, we have two pieces of evidence. The 
first is, that tastini were invented exactly for 
this purpose, and because it is kind of a pain to 
implement, they must have really desired the effect.
The second is the emergence of a meantone 
favorable tunings--here we see that in the 
development of the early viola da gamba that the 
F is solidified as an E--in order to move the F-Sharp to a more favorable fret.
On the plucked side we see the 6 course mandolin 
with both a E and a B as opposed to an F and a C, 
again allowing the sharps to be moved to a more favorable position.


So what we have, of course, is diversity--a 
diversity that refelects in a way the many styles 
of music we play. With cornetto, theorbo and organ, I want it in pure meantone.
For Corelli, I can enjoy more the different 
temperaments to a greater degree with two 
continuo lutes, organ and harpsichord--and a harp if possible!

dt


At 05:33 AM 6/18/2008, you wrote:

Dear Jean-Marie,

Many thanks for this interesting passage. It 
confirms what I was saying, i.e. that keyboard 
instruments were tuned with unequal semitones, 
that the lute and viol were tuned in equal 
temperament, and that fretted instruments were 
regarded as inferior, because they were in equal temperament.


There is however, a problem when fretted 
instruments and keyboard instruments are played 
together. In your passage, the solution of 
tuning keyboard instruments to equal temperament 
is rejected as unsatisfactory. It should be the 
other way round, i.e. fretted instruments tuning 
to the keyboard. A lute or viol cannot be 
fretted 100% in a meantone temperament, but one 
can get pretty close, give or take a few dodgy 
enharmonics. I assume Denis' ivory frets are what some of us call tastini now.


The question I would like answering, is how were 
viols fretted, when they played consort music to 
the organ. On page 242 of _Musick's Monument_, 
Thomas Mace says that the main job of an organ 
is to help keep the viols in tune:


Because the Organ stands us in stead of a 
Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a 
Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; 
especially the Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, c.


If the viols and organ were in different 
temperaments, the last thing an equally-tempered 
viol player would want, is an unequally tempered 
organ telling him he was out of tune all the 
time. I conclude from Mace's remark, that viols 
playing in consort with an organ, would have 
adjusted their frets as close as they could to 
match the temperament of the organ.


In this context, I continue my speculation that 
baroque lutes (in all their various tunings) 
were not played with keyboard instruments, 
because there were too many problems getting the 
instruments in tune with each other. I am aware 
that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute 
and lute, but they are very much the exception. 
A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but 
a good player can bend notes a little to alter 
the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot do.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear Stewart and all,

I am not a great enthusiast of meantone 
temperament as a result of my readings of 
concordant theoretical sources which do not seem 
to advocate this particular tuning, and of my 
experience in consort playing. Of course, I do 
use it when requested to, no problem, but not so 
often after all.  And I would like to have your 
opinion about this passage from Jean Denis, 
Traité de l'accord de l'espinette, Paris : 
Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO 
it's much better to approach this sort of text 
in its original language), one among several of 
the same period on the same subject :


Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons, 
et trois sortes de semi-tons, sçavoir ton 
majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi 
trois sortes de semi-tons, semi-ton majeur, 
semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est 
point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le 
semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le ton mineur, il 
est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un 
semi-ton mineur plus foible que le ton majeur:
Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en 
nostre accord Harmonique, il ne [-p.12-] se 
trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen: 
la difference des deux accords est, qu'en 
l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny 
semi-ton

[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Roman Turovsky]

From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Throughout the present discussion I have tried to use the words equal
and unequal when referring to fret spacing, rather than keep talking
about meantone. All fretting systems on the lute, apart from equal, can
only be approximations to keyboard temperaments, and equal temperament
was not an option for keyboard instruments until more recent times. 

It WAS an option to Frescobaldi. In fact a much desired option.
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

 the temperament of the organ.

In this context, I continue my speculation that 
baroque lutes (in all their various tunings) 
were not played with keyboard instruments, 
because there were too many problems getting the 
instruments in tune with each other. I am aware 
that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute 
and lute, but they are very much the exception. 
A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but 
a good player can bend notes a little to alter 
the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot do.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear Stewart and all,

I am not a great enthusiast of meantone 
temperament as a result of my readings of 
concordant theoretical sources which do not seem 
to advocate this particular tuning, and of my 
experience in consort playing. Of course, I do 
use it when requested to, no problem, but not so 
often after all.  And I would like to have your 
opinion about this passage from Jean Denis, 
Traité de l'accord de l'espinette, Paris : 
Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO 
it's much better to approach this sort of text 
in its original language), one among several of 
the same period on the same subject :

Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons, 
et trois sortes de semi-tons, sçavoir ton 
majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi 
trois sortes de semi-tons, semi-ton majeur, 
semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est 
point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le 
semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le ton mineur, il 
est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un 
semi-ton mineur plus foible que le ton majeur:
Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en 
nostre accord Harmonique, il ne [-p.12-] se 
trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen: 
la difference des deux accords est, qu'en 
l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny 
semi-ton majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le 
semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux 
nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on 
baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce faisant on 
hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les 
semi-tons sont égaux. Or estant en l'assemblée 
de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord 
que je trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude 
à l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et que 
personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me 
respondirent que ie n'y estois pas accoustumé.
Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un 
festin de viandes amères et de mauvais goust, 
et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont 
ils se pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on 
leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas accoustumez, ce 
ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien 
recevable, je voulus sçavoir à quoy cet accord 
estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette 
me dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et 
détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que tous 
les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et 
qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le nostre avec le Luth et la Viole.
Je luy dis qu'il avoit mauvaise raison de 
vouloir gaster le bon et parfait accord pour 
l'accommoder à des Instruments imparfaits, et 
qu'il falloit plustost chercher la perfection du 
Luth et de la Viole, et trouver le moyen de 
faire que les semi-tons fussent majeurs et 
mineurs, comme nous les avons sur l'Espinette, 
ce qui ne se peut faire avec les touches des 
cordes dont on touche les Luths, pource qu'il 
faudroit qu'elles fussent faites en pieds de 
mousches; ce qui se peut faire par le moyen des 
touches d'yvoire, que lon peut mettre par le 
compas et par la proportion du Monochorde, et 
par ce moyen on accordera le Luth et la Viole, 
avec l'Espinnette, dans l'accord [-p.13-] musical et harmonique...

In other words, it looks as if : keyboard 
intruments = meantone temperamen ; fretted 
instruments (lutes and viols) = equal temperament it seems...

All the best,

Jean-Marie


=== 18-06-2008 11:40:45 ===

 
 Dear Anthony,
 
 In writing close to equal temperament, I was deliberately a little
 vague, because I have the frets on the baroque lute and guitar more or
 less equally spaced, but I haven't measured anything exactly. I use a
 tuning box and my ear. I think that's what they usually did in the past,
 but without the box.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Stewart.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 June 2008 10:29
 To: Stewart McCoy
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] New Baroque lute/Meantone
 
 Stewart
Could you make your close to equal temperament a little more
 precise.
 Perhaps that is not possible if you do it entirely by ear.
 Anthony
 
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[howard posner]

On Jun 18, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a  
 more or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments  
 like lutes or viols,

As far as I know, the historical evidence consists mostly of:

1) Actual instructions for fretting the instruments, which describe  
unequal temperament;

2) Theorists implying equal fretting; and

3) Metal-fretted instruments all in unequal temperament.

It's difficult to reconcile the second category with the other two.


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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[Anthony Hind]

Howard
	It is the same for double fretting. Mace says that single frets are  
ideal, and then only tells us how to double fret.
Well, I have to say I can find no fault with the double fretting on  
my new lute, not a buzz anywhere to be heard.


I suppose we should look wider at instructions in all manner of other  
disciplines to try to see if there is a pattern in this, and if so  
what it means.
Could it be that the instructor feels that some new idea, is probably  
better (or at least catching on)  but not having adopted it, he fears  
he may be judged as old fashioned?


This is the sort of thing you still see in new theses, when a young  
research person has just heard of some new theory, but does not want  
to get bogged down for another year researching it.
They tend to try to give an impression that they are giving it much  
thought, but in fact, they have not really completely come to grips  
with it.

Just my musings...
Anthony


Le 18 juin 08 à 23:24, howard posner a écrit :


On Jun 18, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a
more or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments
like lutes or viols,


As far as I know, the historical evidence consists mostly of:

1) Actual instructions for fretting the instruments, which describe
unequal temperament;

2) Theorists implying equal fretting; and

3) Metal-fretted instruments all in unequal temperament.

It's difficult to reconcile the second category with the other two.


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[LUTE] Re: Meantone

[David Tayler]

I don't think the evidence is thin: I think the evidence is 
substantial; however I consider the weight of the evidence to show 
that the practice was uncommon--but important, worth debating.

In other words the thinness is in the number of people who 
practiced the technique, rather than in the solid evidence that it was used.
Actually, I wish I could be thinner as well; it can be a good thing.

As for the staggered frets only being made of ivory, that seems a 
bit of a stretch. I love the expression en pied de mouche, though, 
if it really means fly-steps--It could mean almost anything, I think
perhaps a bunch of tastini would look like flysteps, like viewing 
theorbos from the moon.
Not to mention the Locke meantone piece for Trois Mouche-quetaires.

Apologies in advance,

dt



At 02:57 PM 6/18/2008, you wrote:
Dear Jean-Marie,

You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the ground, so all
the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by Christopher
Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an extra first fret
by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern edition of
the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51:

I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in harpsichords and
organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top or nut of a
viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in some cases for
the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those places; but I
do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein concerned, seeing
those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and seldom that
any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note.

He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of wind
instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike players of
keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted instruments
sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys, must surely
mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This passage is so
important in relation to the present discussion, that I feel it is worth
reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of their length:

Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of music, taking it
with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in the wit of man
to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for practical music.
And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them) for want of a
better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale, whose office
and design is no more than to denote the distances of the concords and
discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth consist, and
to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may rise and
fall.

For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived, neither do they
occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and wind instruments
where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger; but in such
only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and fitted for the
most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we change to keys
less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality
of tones and semitones, especially of the latter.

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of your
assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the general
enthusiasm regardin the so-called tastini. As a matter of fact, I know
only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's Fronimo. One late
sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence to
acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT tuning
problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't you think ?
Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining clearly this
practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland, Praetorius, Mersenne
(more or less in chronological order) do not mention this technique for
tuning their lutes properly.
The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who like all
harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as an imperfect
instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations) that I sent
earlier in the day speaks of placing frets en pied de mouche, i.e. in
a broken line, (staggered as Mark Lindley translates in his book
Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984), not slanted at
all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that this can be
done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed accordingly...
Hardly tastini or very drastic ones indeed.
It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for some citterns
and maybe bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were metal-strung, not
gut-strung, and doesn't this make a difference in terms of practical
intonation

[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting '......as all my notes match the organ's.'

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
   
   
  This is becoming tedious. To return then to the original point: if you have 
straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and diatonic sequence 
of the frets will vary across the courses and you will often NOT therefore be 
playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard instrument as you mistakenly 
seem to think. Your words ' . as all my notes match the organ's'  
(unless, of course, you've persuaded the organist to tune to your chaotic 
fretting).
   
  MH

LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Sorry, this mail went to Martyn only. I always try to keep sending just one
copy, and to the list. Wrong button.


Martyn wrote in responce (I didn't find that mail in my Lute List folder 
either)

 As I originally suspected the chimeric 'tastini' are therefore your 
 solution (or asking the Director to hold on a bit whilst you adjust 
 frets) - hmm..


To which I would reply something by now familiar-sounding like: if the organ 
doesn't retune, I don't have to either as all my notes match the organ's. 
Leaving out statements about Galilei's chimeric tastini or other practical 
solutions for the tastini-dislikers like a theorbo with six strings on the 
fingerboard only.

Dear Martyn


 What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one
 very simple early example in your table below, your first course is
 fretted at the first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a
 lute in nominal G) but a diatonic interval of Ab?


Sure, either G# or Ab, not both at the same time, obviously. You cannot have
both on one fret, like the organ cannot have both on one key. The first fret
is the practical problem for which practical solutions have to be found,
yes. In pieces appropriate for meantone you're more likely to find G#, so a
low first fret would do. In practice that is not my solution, as I find a
low first fret clumsy in setting up. What I do is high first fret with low
tastini for the bass courses. When I want to play a G# on the first course I
fret it at the second course, 6th position. On a low 6th fret, for sure. In
Dowland consort music this is how I manage with meantone viols. Other
players I know manage with a low first fret, though, and high tastini for
course 2 and 3. Good for them. But we've been here before, first fret and G#
on the fourth course are the only problems, thye have practical solutions.

Other answer: what does the organ do? G# or Ab? It has the same problem,
it'll have to find an equally practical solution. It's actually the D#/Eb
that is often bothersome. That's one we sometimes retune between pieces.
We've even divided it on some concerts: D# for the organ, Eb for me. On a
theorbo you can sometimes set both up, at different places on the
fingerboard.


Do your sums again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic
notes as appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with.


Doube first fret. Come on, let's not repeat ourselves.



concert with such pieces? For example, last weekend I played continuo in an
enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes (Purcell, Clarke,
Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence on
P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4
flats)


Not a programme for which I'd advice meantone temperament! I'll be playing
Handel's Alexander's Feast coming weekend: ET for me, with perhaps open F an
C a little higher to be more in agreement with the organ and harpsichord
(some unequal fifths temperament I'm affraid, don't know yet). Next week is
going to Monteverdi's Maria Vespers, however. Perfect for meantone.

I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It works
for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that. Enough time spend
writing. I have to study.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting '......as all my notes match the organ's.'

[LGS-Europe]

if you have straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and 
diatonic sequence of the frets will vary across the courses and you will 
often NOT therefore be playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard 
instrument



Let's keep the discussion fair, albeit tedious, I admit. I think I have 
proven my frets do match the organ, except the first fret (double) and the 
G# on the fourth course. Fine if you don't accept this, than don't try it 
and keep playing out of tune with meantone organs. You have not given any 
workable alternative.


Repeat of last paragraph to end this, as it's not going anywhere:

I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It works
for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that.

Happy lute playing.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





as you mistakenly seem to think. Your words ' . as all my notes 
match the organ's'  (unless, of course, you've persuaded the organist to 
tune to your chaotic fretting).


 MH

LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry, this mail went to Martyn only. I always try to keep sending just 
one

copy, and to the list. Wrong button.


Martyn wrote in responce (I didn't find that mail in my Lute List folder
either)


As I originally suspected the chimeric 'tastini' are therefore your
solution (or asking the Director to hold on a bit whilst you adjust
frets) - hmm..



To which I would reply something by now familiar-sounding like: if the 
organ

doesn't retune, I don't have to either as all my notes match the organ's.
Leaving out statements about Galilei's chimeric tastini or other practical
solutions for the tastini-dislikers like a theorbo with six strings on the
fingerboard only.

Dear Martyn



What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one
very simple early example in your table below, your first course is
fretted at the first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a
lute in nominal G) but a diatonic interval of Ab?



Sure, either G# or Ab, not both at the same time, obviously. You cannot 
have
both on one fret, like the organ cannot have both on one key. The first 
fret

is the practical problem for which practical solutions have to be found,
yes. In pieces appropriate for meantone you're more likely to find G#, so 
a

low first fret would do. In practice that is not my solution, as I find a
low first fret clumsy in setting up. What I do is high first fret with low
tastini for the bass courses. When I want to play a G# on the first course 
I
fret it at the second course, 6th position. On a low 6th fret, for sure. 
In

Dowland consort music this is how I manage with meantone viols. Other
players I know manage with a low first fret, though, and high tastini for
course 2 and 3. Good for them. But we've been here before, first fret and 
G#

on the fourth course are the only problems, thye have practical solutions.

Other answer: what does the organ do? G# or Ab? It has the same problem,
it'll have to find an equally practical solution. It's actually the D#/Eb
that is often bothersome. That's one we sometimes retune between pieces.
We've even divided it on some concerts: D# for the organ, Eb for me. On a
theorbo you can sometimes set both up, at different places on the
fingerboard.




Do your sums again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic
notes as appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with.


Doube first fret. Come on, let's not repeat ourselves.




concert with such pieces? For example, last weekend I played continuo in 
an

enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes (Purcell, Clarke,
Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence on
P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4
flats)


Not a programme for which I'd advice meantone temperament! I'll be playing
Handel's Alexander's Feast coming weekend: ET for me, with perhaps open F 
an

C a little higher to be more in agreement with the organ and harpsichord
(some unequal fifths temperament I'm affraid, don't know yet). Next week 
is

going to Monteverdi's Maria Vespers, however. Perfect for meantone.

I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It 
works

for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that. Enough time 
spend

writing. I have to study.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting '......as all my notes match the organ's.'

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
  I'm very much afraid that you have not proved any such thing (' I have 
proven my frets do match the organ').
   
  My example of the first fret difficulty, which you now recognise, is but one 
of the many fret positions where you will encounter similar problems. Your 
earlier table of fret positions wholly ignores chromatic/diatonic alternatives 
found in practice.
   
  MH

LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
if you have straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and 
diatonic sequence of the frets will vary across the courses and you will 
often NOT therefore be playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard 
instrument


Let's keep the discussion fair, albeit tedious, I admit. I think I have 
proven my frets do match the organ, except the first fret (double) and the 
G# on the fourth course. Fine if you don't accept this, than don't try it 
and keep playing out of tune with meantone organs. You have not given any 
workable alternative.

Repeat of last paragraph to end this, as it's not going anywhere:

I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It works
for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that.

Happy lute playing.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





as you mistakenly seem to think. Your words ' . as all my notes 
match the organ's' (unless, of course, you've persuaded the organist to 
tune to your chaotic fretting).

 MH

 LGS-Europe wrote:
 Sorry, this mail went to Martyn only. I always try to keep sending just 
 one
 copy, and to the list. Wrong button.


 Martyn wrote in responce (I didn't find that mail in my Lute List folder
 either)

 As I originally suspected the chimeric 'tastini' are therefore your
 solution (or asking the Director to hold on a bit whilst you adjust
 frets) - hmm..
 

 To which I would reply something by now familiar-sounding like: if the 
 organ
 doesn't retune, I don't have to either as all my notes match the organ's.
 Leaving out statements about Galilei's chimeric tastini or other practical
 solutions for the tastini-dislikers like a theorbo with six strings on the
 fingerboard only.

 Dear Martyn


 What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one
 very simple early example in your table below, your first course is
 fretted at the first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a
 lute in nominal G) but a diatonic interval of Ab?
 

 Sure, either G# or Ab, not both at the same time, obviously. You cannot 
 have
 both on one fret, like the organ cannot have both on one key. The first 
 fret
 is the practical problem for which practical solutions have to be found,
 yes. In pieces appropriate for meantone you're more likely to find G#, so 
 a
 low first fret would do. In practice that is not my solution, as I find a
 low first fret clumsy in setting up. What I do is high first fret with low
 tastini for the bass courses. When I want to play a G# on the first course 
 I
 fret it at the second course, 6th position. On a low 6th fret, for sure. 
 In
 Dowland consort music this is how I manage with meantone viols. Other
 players I know manage with a low first fret, though, and high tastini for
 course 2 and 3. Good for them. But we've been here before, first fret and 
 G#
 on the fourth course are the only problems, thye have practical solutions.

 Other answer: what does the organ do? G# or Ab? It has the same problem,
 it'll have to find an equally practical solution. It's actually the D#/Eb
 that is often bothersome. That's one we sometimes retune between pieces.
 We've even divided it on some concerts: D# for the organ, Eb for me. On a
 theorbo you can sometimes set both up, at different places on the
 fingerboard.


 Do your sums again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic
 notes as appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with.
 

 Doube first fret. Come on, let's not repeat ourselves.



 concert with such pieces? For example, last weekend I played continuo in 
 an
 enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes (Purcell, Clarke,
 Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence on
 P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4
 flats)
 

 Not a programme for which I'd advice meantone temperament! I'll be playing
 Handel's Alexander's Feast coming weekend: ET for me, with perhaps open F 
 an
 C a little higher to be more in agreement with the organ and harpsichord
 (some unequal fifths temperament I'm affraid, don't know yet). Next week 
 is
 going to Monteverdi's Maria Vespers, however. Perfect for meantone.

 I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
 which there are no perfect answers according to the 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets

[David Tayler]

I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but isn't the G on 
the fourth course +7 not minus 7, semi ideally?
I feel a surreal sense that I have somehow misplaced G.
Also, how do you manage the octave A being out by 7 centimes? Not 
criticizing, just intrigued.

Thanks for the figures. I will digest them slowly like the the python 
in le petit prince.
dt


At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote:
Dear Martyn

We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch 
saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: 
communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same 
thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human 
contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how 
will we ever make contact?

  I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials


I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I 
assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one 
piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself 
playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an 
MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that 
the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute 
can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step 
before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note 
by note. Because of the straight frets:

the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely 
the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up 
the fingerboard



No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an 
organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is 
purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I 
tune my lute to match these?
Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents:

Eb = 21
Bb = 17
F = 14
C = 10
G = 7
D = 3
A = 0
E = -3
B = -7
F# = -10
C# = -14
G# = -17
D# = -21

Lute in g'
Fret = note = cents deviation

First course:
0 = G = 7
1 = G# = -24
2 = A = -7
3 = Bb = 10
4 = B = -14
5 = C = 3

Second course:
0 = D = 3
1 = Eb = 18
2 = E = -6
3 = F = 11
4 = F# = -13
5 = G = 4

Third course:
0 = A = 0
1 = Bb = 17
2 = B = -7
3 = C = 10
4 = C# = -14
5 = D = 3

Fourth course:
0 = F = 14
1 = F# = -24
2 = G = -7
3 = G# = -31
4 = A = -14
5 = Bb = 3

Fifth course:
0 = C = 10
1 = C# = -24
2 = D = -7
3 = Eb = 11
4 = E = -13
5 = F = 4

This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses:

First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24
Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so.

Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7
Perfect enough for me.

Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11
Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a 
note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though.

Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13
Perfect enough for me.

Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4
Perfect enough for me.


Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to 
correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the 
figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in 
practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will 
give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the 
fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). This 
leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and others, have found 
different practical ways of living with that, let it rest for now. 
Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first five.

I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to 
match all the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# 
on fourth course and first fret to be solved in a practical way 
(tastini, split fret or avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done 
that, it works).

I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would 
assume that a lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, 
would come up with something similar to make his life workable. I 
see modern viol, violone and lute players move their frets all the 
time to match the organ, I see no reason why that would have been 
different in olden times. I know that is not evidence, but 
musicians' ears and their desires to solve problems cannot have 
changed that much.

Additionally, I find, when tuned in meantone, a part of the lute and 
notably theorbo solo repertoire to work very well. That's my liking 
only, perhaps, but would a lutenist of old change his frets and 
retune for his solo pieces, if these can be played with the frets in 
ensemble setup? Purely speculation, no historical evidence, take it 
or leave it, but do try it.

David

To Roman: last count was closer to 30 than 20, but I'm sure not 
nearly as many as POD's, whose solo cds are perhaps the only ones 
you've counted. Mine are all ensemble of some sort or other. No big 
deal, then. Furthermore, quality is more important than quantity; 
only for my late mother was I world-famous, for the rest of the 
world I'm just 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets

[Roman Turovsky]

From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed 
you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in 
a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses 
and all. If you'd agree that an MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, 
and if you'd agree that the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd 
agree the lute can play the modulation.

That is some modulation.
RT






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[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
  Your table demonstrate some of the real practical problems I highlighted, but 
the straight fret issue is but one of them.
   
  What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one very 
simple early example in your table below,  your first course is fretted at the 
first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a lute in nominal G) but 
a diatonic interval of Ab?   As you may find playing in, say, Cm rather than A 
.  Thus when you say ' this gives the ideal position for
  fret positions on all 5 courses'  I'm afraid you're wrong.  Do your sums 
again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic notes as 
appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with.
   
  Bearing this in mind, in practice how does your prescriptive system manage 
when playing in concert with such pieces?  For example, last weekend I played 
continuo in an enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes  (Purcell, 
Clarke, Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence 
on P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4 
flats)   Besides the theorbo, other continuo was chamber organ, 
harpsichord and gamba.
   
  MH
   
   
   
  MH

LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Dear Martyn

We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch saying I 
cannot quite translate that goes something like: communicating is talking as 
closely as possible about the same thing, meaning you don't talk about the 
same thing at all. Human contact is difficult, each man his own universe in 
his own head, how will we ever make contact?

 I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials


I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed 
you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in 
a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses and 
all. If you'd agree that an MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and 
if you'd agree that the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree 
the lute can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step 
before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note by 
note. Because of the straight frets:


the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely the same 
sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up the fingerboard



No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an organ, 
but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is purely practical. 
If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I tune my lute to match 
these?
Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents:

Eb = 21
Bb = 17
F = 14
C = 10
G = 7
D = 3
A = 0
E = -3
B = -7
F# = -10
C# = -14
G# = -17
D# = -21

Lute in g'
Fret = note = cents deviation

First course:
0 = G = 7
1 = G# = -24
2 = A = -7
3 = Bb = 10
4 = B = -14
5 = C = 3

Second course:
0 = D = 3
1 = Eb = 18
2 = E = -6
3 = F = 11
4 = F# = -13
5 = G = 4

Third course:
0 = A = 0
1 = Bb = 17
2 = B = -7
3 = C = 10
4 = C# = -14
5 = D = 3

Fourth course:
0 = F = 14
1 = F# = -24
2 = G = -7
3 = G# = -31
4 = A = -14
5 = Bb = 3

Fifth course:
0 = C = 10
1 = C# = -24
2 = D = -7
3 = Eb = 11
4 = E = -13
5 = F = 4

This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses:

First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24
Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so.

Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7
Perfect enough for me.

Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11
Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a note to 
avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though.

Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13
Perfect enough for me.

Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4
Perfect enough for me.


Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to correct 
these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the figures agree 
more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in practice. Other varieties of 
meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will give less extreme fret positions, and 
might make the g# on the fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears 
(or ensemble). This leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and 
others, have found different practical ways of living with that, let it rest 
for now. Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first 
five.

I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to match all 
the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# on fourth course 
and first fret to be solved in a practical way (tastini, split fret or 
avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done that, it works).

I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would assume that a 
lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, would come up with 
something similar to make his life workable. I see modern viol, violone and 
lute players move their frets all the time to match the organ, I see no 
reason why that would have been different in olden 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets

[David Tayler]

First thanks to DVO for putting up the numbers--now we have some real 
world material. I find this very helpful.
I'm still working though the chords, but in a real gig scenario I 
would set three basic levels--
I'm sure I will make mistakes so correct me if I am wrong

Level one, the simplest of grounds, like Uccellini's bergamasca
Level two a harmonized tetrachord like the thousands based on the 
notes descending from A to E
Level three La Follia

These three very basic patterns cover a lot of ground (pun alert).

In the Bergamasca, one can play lute or archlute or theorbo in G or 
A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord
Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course, 
we will avoid the out of tune octaves, Not ideal for full chords but 
perfectly playable, and  more in tune than ET. More importantly, it 
will clash less with the organ. By the way, they seemed to like the 
clash of temperaments. Go figure.

The picture is good as well in A tuning, where we are looking 
essentially at F G C on the chart instead of G A D
Here the open A is two high for F major, but the second fret gives a 
slightly lower one.

Perhaps is not meantone in the the strict sense  because the  octaves 
can be out of tune--particularly in the F chord, but for me, the 
bergamasca works OK. In the C chord the fifth is too flat but that is 
easy to pull up a few cents by pulling the string sideways, something 
I do all the time (mostly between E and B).
On the keyboard, the octaves are NOT out of tune, but there is a bit 
of a trade off.

As far as I can see, this first set works OK.

On to the lament.
Assuming a basic harmony of a minor, e minor (sometimes G) D minor (7 
suspended over F) and E major,
we see that the A minor with a bar chord (again, leaving out any out 
of tune octaves on the A) and E minor are workable.
D minor can be played with the open A to yield a better fifth, and 
the minor third is nicely high.
Then the crunch--E major--the workaround here is to use the sixth 
fret only, or a fretlet, either of which work

As far as I can see, this second set works OK.

Which means La Follia works too, even adding G minor.
Can't wait to try it.


dt




At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote:
Dear Martyn

We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch 
saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: 
communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same 
thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human 
contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how 
will we ever make contact?

  I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials


I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I 
assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one 
piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself 
playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an 
MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that 
the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute 
can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step 
before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note 
by note. Because of the straight frets:

the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely 
the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up 
the fingerboard



No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an 
organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is 
purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I 
tune my lute to match these?
Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents:

Eb = 21
Bb = 17
F = 14
C = 10
G = 7
D = 3
A = 0
E = -3
B = -7
F# = -10
C# = -14
G# = -17
D# = -21

Lute in g'
Fret = note = cents deviation

First course:
0 = G = 7
1 = G# = -24
2 = A = -7
3 = Bb = 10
4 = B = -14
5 = C = 3

Second course:
0 = D = 3
1 = Eb = 18
2 = E = -6
3 = F = 11
4 = F# = -13
5 = G = 4

Third course:
0 = A = 0
1 = Bb = 17
2 = B = -7
3 = C = 10
4 = C# = -14
5 = D = 3

Fourth course:
0 = F = 14
1 = F# = -24
2 = G = -7
3 = G# = -31
4 = A = -14
5 = Bb = 3

Fifth course:
0 = C = 10
1 = C# = -24
2 = D = -7
3 = Eb = 11
4 = E = -13
5 = F = 4

This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses:

First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24
Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so.

Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7
Perfect enough for me.

Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11
Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a 
note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though.

Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13
Perfect enough for me.

Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4
Perfect enough for me.


Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to 
correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the 
figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in 
practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets

[David Tayler]

Yes you are right I did not crank my F up high enough.

Definitely an improvement over ET and balances with organ.



At 02:38 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote:
A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord
Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course,

??

F = 14
A = 0
Fourth course open = 14
Fret 4 = -14 gives A = 0

G = 7
A = 0
First course open = 7
Fret 2 = -7 gives A = 0

Then A on fourth course is in tune with A on first course. Am I 
missing something?

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl




we will avoid the out of tune octaves, Not ideal for full chords but
perfectly playable, and  more in tune than ET. More importantly, it
will clash less with the organ. By the way, they seemed to like the
clash of temperaments. Go figure.

The picture is good as well in A tuning, where we are looking
essentially at F G C on the chart instead of G A D
Here the open A is two high for F major, but the second fret gives a
slightly lower one.

Perhaps is not meantone in the the strict sense  because the  octaves
can be out of tune--particularly in the F chord, but for me, the
bergamasca works OK. In the C chord the fifth is too flat but that is
easy to pull up a few cents by pulling the string sideways, something
I do all the time (mostly between E and B).
On the keyboard, the octaves are NOT out of tune, but there is a bit
of a trade off.

As far as I can see, this first set works OK.

On to the lament.
Assuming a basic harmony of a minor, e minor (sometimes G) D minor (7
suspended over F) and E major,
we see that the A minor with a bar chord (again, leaving out any out
of tune octaves on the A) and E minor are workable.
D minor can be played with the open A to yield a better fifth, and
the minor third is nicely high.
Then the crunch--E major--the workaround here is to use the sixth
fret only, or a fretlet, either of which work

As far as I can see, this second set works OK.

Which means La Follia works too, even adding G minor.
Can't wait to try it.


dt




At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote:
Dear Martyn

We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch
saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like:
communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same
thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human
contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how
will we ever make contact?

  I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials


I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I
assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one
piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself
playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an
MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that
the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute
can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step
before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note
by note. Because of the straight frets:

the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely
the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up
the fingerboard



No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an
organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is
purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I
tune my lute to match these?
Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents:

Eb = 21
Bb = 17
F = 14
C = 10
G = 7
D = 3
A = 0
E = -3
B = -7
F# = -10
C# = -14
G# = -17
D# = -21

Lute in g'
Fret = note = cents deviation

First course:
0 = G = 7
1 = G# = -24
2 = A = -7
3 = Bb = 10
4 = B = -14
5 = C = 3

Second course:
0 = D = 3
1 = Eb = 18
2 = E = -6
3 = F = 11
4 = F# = -13
5 = G = 4

Third course:
0 = A = 0
1 = Bb = 17
2 = B = -7
3 = C = 10
4 = C# = -14
5 = D = 3

Fourth course:
0 = F = 14
1 = F# = -24
2 = G = -7
3 = G# = -31
4 = A = -14
5 = Bb = 3

Fifth course:
0 = C = 10
1 = C# = -24
2 = D = -7
3 = Eb = 11
4 = E = -13
5 = F = 4

This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses:

First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24
Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so.

Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7
Perfect enough for me.

Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11
Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a
note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though.

Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13
Perfect enough for me.

Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4
Perfect enough for me.


Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to
correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the
figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in
practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will
give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the
fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). 

[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Ed Durbrow]

On Mar 30, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
 setting single, unmodified frets in any unequal temperament  
 intervals (some
 oft-cited meantone scheme, e.g.)--as some lutenists justifiably do  
 (and I
 do enjoy hearing it when I perceive it as well played)--is NOT  
 equivalent
 to setting the whole of the chromatic capability of a guitar or  
 lute in
 that temperament as it is on a keyboard, but in reality is setting a
 parallel series of unequal temperaments under the intervals of the  
 fretted
 strings.

I don't know about all unequal temperaments, but let's take meantone  
as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting  
aside tastini for the moment - as a single keyboard would have to  
have just one note per key), it happens to work out that all the  
notes at every fret are in that temperament. What is the difference  
with a keyboard? If you tune a keyboard to meantone, are not all the  
notes within the temperament?

By parallel series of unequal temperaments, do you mean each string  
has the same fret relationship and is therefor parallel? It is quite  
amazing that it works out that the notes at those frets are in the  
temperament just as they would be on a keyboard or a tuner, but as  
far as I know, that is the case.

I know I must be missing something so if you could explain it a bit  
further I would be grateful.

cheers,

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[LGS-Europe]

 as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting
 aside tastini for the moment - as a single keyboard would have to
 have just one note per key), it happens to work out that all the
 notes at every fret are in that temperament.

Ed
No, many, but not all. Enough to play continuo with, often enough to play a 
part of the solo repertoire, but without adjustments (tastini, refingering, 
adaptations for each piece, whatever) you'll have some _very_ out of tune 
notes.

Don't forget, I like to play in mean tone temperament and often do, but 
still, it's not perfect.

Check my website for a DIY and short explanation.

David



David van Ooijen
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Ed Durbrow]

Assuming you and a keyboard player both tune to the same meantone  
temperament, which notes are not in the temperament on a lute but in  
the temperament on a keyboard?

On Mar 31, 2006, at 6:53 PM, LGS-Europe wrote:

 as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting
 aside tastini for the moment - as a single keyboard would have to
 have just one note per key), it happens to work out that all the
 notes at every fret are in that temperament.

 Ed
 No, many, but not all. Enough to play continuo with, often enough  
 to play a part of the solo repertoire, but without adjustments  
 (tastini, refingering, adaptations for each piece, whatever) you'll  
 have some _very_ out of tune notes.

 Don't forget, I like to play in mean tone temperament and often do,  
 but still, it's not perfect.

 Check my website for a DIY and short explanation.

 David


 
 David van Ooijen
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl
 



Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Stefan Ecke]

If  the keyboard player sets his instruments to meantone 
with the accidentials f sharp, c sharp, g sharp, e flat and b flat
and you set the first fret of your lute to have a g sharp on the
first course the notes on courses 2-6 will be d sharp, a sharp, 
f sharp, c sharp, g sharp.
Thus, courses 2 and 3 don't match the keyboard on the first fret. 
If you move the fret up so that courses 2 and 3 are in tune with
the keyboard, all other frets are no longer in tune on the first fret.
Similiar problem are there for all the frets that have accidentials.

Stefan


 Assuming you and a keyboard player both tune to the same meantone  
 temperament, which notes are not in the temperament on a lute but in  
 the temperament on a keyboard?
 
 On Mar 31, 2006, at 6:53 PM, LGS-Europe wrote:
 
  as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting
  aside tastini for the moment - as a single keyboard would have to
  have just one note per key), it happens to work out that all the
  notes at every fret are in that temperament.
 
  Ed
  No, many, but not all. Enough to play continuo with, often enough  
  to play a part of the solo repertoire, but without adjustments  
  (tastini, refingering, adaptations for each piece, whatever) you'll  
  have some _very_ out of tune notes.
 
  Don't forget, I like to play in mean tone temperament and often do,  
  but still, it's not perfect.
 
  Check my website for a DIY and short explanation.
 
  David
 
 
  
  David van Ooijen
  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl
  
 
 
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Ed Durbrow]

Okay. Good example. Got it.
I thought the point that was being made was that it was impossible to  
have them the same in both instruments. If the keyboard player set  
his meantone to all flats, for example, and the lute did likewise, I  
don't see where there would be any differences. I see where Eugene  
was going with that now. The key phrase was unmodified frets which  
I glossed over.
Like David said, in practice there are ways to work around it.

Ed, sticking with the easy keys



On Mar 31, 2006, at 7:25 PM, Stefan Ecke wrote:

 If  the keyboard player sets his instruments to meantone
 with the accidentials f sharp, c sharp, g sharp, e flat and b flat
 and you set the first fret of your lute to have a g sharp on the
 first course the notes on courses 2-6 will be d sharp, a sharp,
 f sharp, c sharp, g sharp.
 Thus, courses 2 and 3 don't match the keyboard on the first fret.
 If you move the fret up so that courses 2 and 3 are in tune with
 the keyboard, all other frets are no longer in tune on the first fret.
 Similiar problem are there for all the frets that have accidentials.

 Stefan

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[LGS-Europe]

 These days unequally tempered lutes, theorbos and guitars play
 with
 unequally tempered harpsichords and organs all the time.

 Of course.  I enjoy hearing and wouldn't want to imply otherwise.  They 
 still aren't quite in tune with each other, especially in remote keys.

Again, you seem to be mixing theory (it is impossible to tune a guitar or 
lute in an unequal temperament) with practice (we have to play together with 
Werckmeister harpsichords). I am talking about continuo playing. If the key 
is too remote for the keyboard, the keyboard will be adjusted (changing 
e-flats to d-sharps is an obvious one to do, but mollifying some thirds for 
bad sounding chords can be another). The character of remote keys in unequal 
temperaments is that they are less pure than nearer keys, that is what their 
remoteness is all about. In equal temperaments there are no remote keys, all 
keys are equal, some are just as equal as others.
In near as well as remote keys in unequal temperaments, if there are notes I 
cannot play on my lute or guitar because they are out of tune with the 
keyboard, I don't play these notes. I kn ow, some chords become really thin. 
Common sense combined with critical listening will find solutions. I 
remember a recording of music by Marais. The harpsichord player had tuned 
his instrument to his personal flavour of something Werckmeister-like. On 
theorbo I could match most of the notes that mattered, the rest I didn't 
play or played elsewhere on the fingerboard (ideal instrument for weird 
temperaments, theorbo, there's always an alternative nearby) . On baroque 
guitar I had more problems, but managed to play something that worked 
anyway, less strumming than I wanted, perhaps. Playing fretted instruments 
together with keyboard instruments is all about finding practical solutions. 
Even if we all play in some form of mean tone temperament, still several 
positions are untouchable for us. Then, don't touch and problem solved. For 
some keyboard temperaments (all these players use their own system, useless 
to label these) I cannot match, I set up my fretting in something not too 
far removed but that makes the chords I play sound well within themselves 
(usually 1/6 comma meantone or simply equal temperament) so the lute / 
guitar sounds all right when played alone, and check with te keyboard what I 
have to avoid. Or, on a lute, often raising c and f strings, adjusting third 
fret, perhaps lowering second fret a tad and be carefull with certain thirds 
can be enough. In continuo playing you don't always play together anyway, so 
if it's 'my turn' I can play the thirds. Violins, windplayers and singers 
will adapt. It's not about being in tune for every note on the scale, it's 
about playing in tune together. Avoid wrong notes and find practical 
solutions.

Solo playing is another story altogether.

David - trying to live in the real world



 Best,
 Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[LGS-Europe]

which can be studied at http://www.larips.com ...


 I like Mr. Lehman's work, however it (or any talk of keyboard 
 temperaments)
 has little direct relevance to fretted strings.  Bradley can tune every

Of course, but we have to play together with keyboards, and think of 
something not to be _too_ out of tune with them. |-(
So it's worth trying such temperaments on our continuo lutes.

David



David van Ooijen

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 10:58 AM 3/28/2006, Arto Wikla wrote:
And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every tonality
sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the major thirds
sounding ugly...  ;-)


Obviously...but you still can't truly fret any instrument to any 
temperament scheme other than roughly equal temperament without tastini or 
some other device for sectioning frets.

Best,
Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[Roman Turovsky]

 And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every tonality
 sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the major thirds
 sounding ugly...  ;-)
 All the best,

 Arto
On lutes all keys sound different even in ET. And some people find meantone 
3rds way too shrill.
RT 




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[LUTE] Re: Meantone temperament

[The Other]

On Tuesday 28 March 2006 10:09 am, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
 At 10:58 AM 3/28/2006, Arto Wikla wrote:
 And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every
  tonality sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the
  major thirds sounding ugly...  ;-)

 Obviously...but you still can't truly fret any instrument to any
 temperament scheme other than roughly equal temperament without
 tastini or some other device for sectioning frets.

I've got 2 first frets and use 1/4 Comma Meantone Temperament.  I 
didn't try to use 2 eighth frets, but it might work.  Never went the 
tastini route.

The Other Stephen Stubbs
Champaign, IL   USA



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