[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Maybe our culture is disintegrating before our very eyes. Can a culture be lost? Gary - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? David, Yes, indeed, as do academic presses in general. University presses are among the worst offenders, with many volumes priced out of the range of individual buyers. I suppose they have to do something to recoup the losses from the limited appeal of many specialized subjects. But are these artificially inflated prices sustainable? Won't libraries just stop buying stuff they determine is not as important as X or Z? That is already happening. The specialized library where I used to work declined to buy a specialist book on Stradivarius which cost £80. Their funds just didn't stretch to it. I am having to wait until the British L:ibrary get around to cataloguing the copy I assume they will receive under copyright laws. Could be yonks if they are cutting back on staff to do the cataloguing (a highly skilled activity in itself). Monica Who can blame them if they need to make these budgetary decisions, but how scary is that? Publishers in turn will stop publishing the things that aren't so important... Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) Wow, that's much more of a free association rant than I first intended. Anyway, I suppose it goes to show that the accomplishments of our civilization hang by a much thinner thread than any of us realize. All of our artifacts might ultimately be far less permanent than the wooden ceiling of an ancient Greek temple. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Thu, 11/11/10, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 8:54 PM By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Think of the Etruscans: fairly high level of civilization, but left very little of textual information in hard copy; consequently, we know very little about them. Perhaps we know more about the more ancient cunieform writers. Leonard On 11/13/10 4:58 AM, Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net wrote: Maybe our culture is disintegrating before our very eyes. Can a culture be lost? Gary - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? David, Yes, indeed, as do academic presses in general. University presses are among the worst offenders, with many volumes priced out of the range of individual buyers. I suppose they have to do something to recoup the losses from the limited appeal of many specialized subjects. But are these artificially inflated prices sustainable? Won't libraries just stop buying stuff they determine is not as important as X or Z? That is already happening. The specialized library where I used to work declined to buy a specialist book on Stradivarius which cost £80. Their funds just didn't stretch to it. I am having to wait until the British L:ibrary get around to cataloguing the copy I assume they will receive under copyright laws. Could be yonks if they are cutting back on staff to do the cataloguing (a highly skilled activity in itself). Monica Who can blame them if they need to make these budgetary decisions, but how scary is that? Publishers in turn will stop publishing the things that aren't so important... Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) Wow, that's much more of a free association rant than I first intended. Anyway, I suppose it goes to show that the accomplishments of our civilization hang by a much thinner thread than any of us realize. All of our artifacts might ultimately be far less permanent than the wooden ceiling of an ancient Greek temple. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Thu, 11/11/10, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 8:54 PM By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Yet, there's something noble about making these availlable at no cost, just as there's something noble about public libraries making books availlable at no cost to the user in the interest of enriching the culture. A decidedly uncapitalistic sentiment originating with an arch-captialist, Andrew Carnegie. Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10 11:34:00
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
At no cost??? What about all the tax money the public and national libraries receive? Some of that I've contributed. G. - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:05 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Yet, there's something noble about making these availlable at no cost, just as there's something noble about public libraries making books availlable at no cost to the user in the interest of enriching the culture. A decidedly uncapitalistic sentiment originating with an arch-captialist, Andrew Carnegie. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Believe you me - what we get (got) had to go a very long way. Monica - Original Message - From: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 10:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? At no cost??? What about all the tax money the public and national libraries receive? Some of that I've contributed. G. - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:05 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Yet, there's something noble about making these availlable at no cost, just as there's something noble about public libraries making books availlable at no cost to the user in the interest of enriching the culture. A decidedly uncapitalistic sentiment originating with an arch-captialist, Andrew Carnegie. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
- Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? David, Yes, indeed, as do academic presses in general. University presses are among the worst offenders, with many volumes priced out of the range of individual buyers. I suppose they have to do something to recoup the losses from the limited appeal of many specialized subjects. But are these artificially inflated prices sustainable? Won't libraries just stop buying stuff they determine is not as important as X or Z? That is already happening. The specialized library where I used to work declined to buy a specialist book on Stradivarius which cost £80. Their funds just didn't stretch to it. I am having to wait until the British L:ibrary get around to cataloguing the copy I assume they will receive under copyright laws. Could be yonks if they are cutting back on staff to do the cataloguing (a highly skilled activity in itself). Monica Who can blame them if they need to make these budgetary decisions, but how scary is that? Publishers in turn will stop publishing the things that aren't so important... Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) Wow, that's much more of a free association rant than I first intended. Anyway, I suppose it goes to show that the accomplishments of our civilization hang by a much thinner thread than any of us realize. All of our artifacts might ultimately be far less permanent than the wooden ceiling of an ancient Greek temple. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Thu, 11/11/10, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 8:54 PM By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Yes, the British Library certainly receives a lot of taxpayers' money, -L-109.4 million in 2009/10. [1]http://www.bl.uk/about/annual/2009to2010/accounts.pdf They have digitised some stuff, although not nearly as much as the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek. Right now I'm browsing a very nice online copy of My Ladye Nevells Booke. [2]http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/virtualbooks/viewall/index.html Their main strategic priority seems to be building their capacity to capture and store digital publications at source. Their digitisation priority seems to be newspapers. [3]http://www.bl.uk/about/annual/2009to2010/strategic/stratprioraction1 .html#one Tricky job, running a huge library P On 12 November 2010 12:03, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke [5]chriswi...@yahoo.com To: [6]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler [8]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? David, Yes, indeed, as do academic presses in general. University presses are among the worst offenders, with many volumes priced out of the range of individual buyers. I suppose they have to do something to recoup the losses from the limited appeal of many specialized subjects. But are these artificially inflated prices sustainable? Won't libraries just stop buying stuff they determine is not as important as X or Z? That is already happening. The specialized library where I used to work declined to buy a specialist book on Stradivarius which cost -L-80. Their funds just didn't stretch to it. I am having to wait until the British L:ibrary get around to cataloguing the copy I assume they will receive under copyright laws. Could be yonks if they are cutting back on staff to do the cataloguing (a highly skilled activity in itself). Monica Who can blame them if they need to make these budgetary decisions, but how scary is that? Publishers in turn will stop publishing the things that aren't so important... Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) Wow, that's much more of a free association rant than I first intended. Anyway, I suppose it goes to show that the accomplishments of our civilization hang by a much thinner thread than any of us realize. All of our artifacts might ultimately be far less permanent than the wooden ceiling of an ancient Greek temple. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [9]www.christopherwilke.com --- On Thu, 11/11/10, David Tayler [10]vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler [11]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? To: [12]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [13]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 8:54 PM By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler [14]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: [15]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [16]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Our library is having a crisis because the online resources cost the library a lot lot more than the old fashioned paper journals! Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Date: November 11, 2010 9:20:30 PM EST Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Our library is having a crisis because the online resources cost the library a lot lot more than the old fashioned paper journals! Ayup. Shelf space is expensive too, reverse of that coin. I used to be an active modeler of railroad stuff. The NYC 42nd st research library (science and technology) had an incomplete collection of Car Cyclopedias and Locomotive Cyclopedias, which from ca 1880 onwards printed plans and photos of railroad cars and locomotives, so those in the trade could see what was current practice and also know how to repair foreign equipment when it needed that. There were also several trade newspapers, Northeastern University had a basement full of those in 1967. Doubt they are still there now, but back then they were a treasure trove of information. As I pack to move, I have to face the probable lack of space, have already dumped some ACM and IEEE journals I inherited from a former roomate; neither of us had the time to read them when published... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? information published on wiki is dynamic, several persons might be working on any one article, tweaking it endlessly with no editorial supervision, in effect, each is an editor of the others work. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
by the way: today the munich BSB has 397.736 Titels online ;-) [11.11.2010] Original-Nachricht Datum: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:55:13 +0100 Von: wolfgang wiehe wie-w...@gmx.de An: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? hi david, digitalizing costs a lot - for equipment and personal. the munich BSB is doing a great job in preparing such a lot of digitals for us, but first for preserving their treasures, too. if we are looking to cologne, we know, what it means, if such a large archive is destroyed. http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?c=digitalisierung-scannerl=de on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y16rNqnxj0U greetings w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:45:25 -0800 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? For everyone who buys one, there are a hundred who will not. It will all be online eventually, so why not do it now? So everyone can be wiser and more musical. I think if someone is faced with a decision, hey, I can charge for this, or give it freely to the world, well, there is a choice that is more than a personal decision, because it is a question of whether it is part of our greater musical society. And I don't want my facsimiles cleaned up. Just put it all online please, before I croak. And thanks to those who do. dt At 03:24 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Fascinating! Thanks for posting. On Nov 11, 2010, at 2:55 AM, wolfgang wiehe wrote: hi david, digitalizing costs a lot - for equipment and personal. the munich BSB is doing a great job in preparing such a lot of digitals for us, but first for preserving their treasures, too. if we are looking to cologne, we know, what it means, if such a large archive is destroyed. http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?c=digitalisierung-scannerl=de on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y16rNqnxj0U greetings w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:45:25 -0800 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? For everyone who buys one, there are a hundred who will not. It will all be online eventually, so why not do it now? So everyone can be wiser and more musical. I think if someone is faced with a decision, hey, I can charge for this, or give it freely to the world, well, there is a choice that is more than a personal decision, because it is a question of whether it is part of our greater musical society. And I don't want my facsimiles cleaned up. Just put it all online please, before I croak. And thanks to those who do. dt At 03:24 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
I agree, Monica. As a child I was awed and thrilled to discover libraries. The love for them - and the respect for those who staff them - has not diminished, but rather deepened, over the years. Ned On Nov 11, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Monica Hall wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
(Donna here) Thanks, Monica. My last day job was digitizing materials for Cornells Rare Manuscript Library, and my response to this thread became so long-winded that Ron suggested it should be a blog post. So be it: [1]http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:02:51 + To: vidan...@sbcglobal.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Monica, --- On Thu, 11/11/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Well, yes, for performers, it really is. I think most of us on this list are looking at this from the perspective of a performer rather than doing musicological research. Us performers MUST use non-original copies as the basis of our work. Few will be allowed to bring one's instrument into the reading room to trash through old manuscripts just to see what sounds cool. And few libraries will let you take a rare book home or out on tour. Those replacement fees on lost sole copies are murder and the librarians are real sticklers when you write fingerings in or spill coffee on 'em! ;-) (I know, there are the rare cases in which performers are allowed to give select performances from original manuscripts and such. This is obviously not the norm.) And even for scholars, a facsimile may be the most practical option in many cases. If one is in Europe, going to look at an original that is housed 150km away may not be that big of a deal, but for those of us in America and elsewhere, traveling to that part of the world to check out a forgotten flyspeck or watermark may not be that vital if it is of minor concern to our thesis. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Monica, --- On Thu, 11/11/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Well, yes, for performers, it really is. I think most of us on this list are looking at this from the perspective of a performer rather than doing musicological research. Us performers MUST use non-original copies as the basis of our work. Few will be allowed to bring one's instrument into the reading room to trash through old manuscripts just to see what sounds cool. And few libraries will let you take a rare book home or out on tour. Those replacement fees on lost sole copies are murder and the librarians are real sticklers when you write fingerings in or spill coffee on 'em! ;-) (I know, there are the rare cases in which performers are allowed to give select performances from original manuscripts and such. This is obviously not the norm.) And even for scholars, a facsimile may be the most practical option in many cases. If one is in Europe, going to look at an original that is housed 150km away may not be that big of a deal, but for those of us in America and elsewhere, traveling to that part of the world to check out a forgotten flyspeck or watermark may not be that vital if it is of minor concern to our thesis. Chris Dearie me! I guess you are right. Someone did tell me they had been allowed to take a rare book back to their hotel room once but of course being an honest person he returned it. And we weren't very thrilled if people wrote their fingerings all over things, nevermind spilt coffee on them. But at the end of the day all these services have to be paid for - and nobody likes paying tax. Someone mentioned the British Library. At present use is free but regularly they raise the question of whether readers should charged for admission. And digitalizing the whole collection would cost more than flying to the moon. In the present economic climate - no chance. How do you propose to finance it? Monica (as ever sceptical) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Hi Donna You have said it all. Easier said than done. And even if the British Library do start digitizing things they wont start with lute manuscripts, still less with baroque guitar manuscripts. We will just have to go on paying upfront for photocopies and mircrofilms. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Ron Andrico To: [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? (Donna here) Thanks, Monica. My last day job was digitizing materials for Cornell's Rare Manuscript Library, and my response to this thread became so long-winded that Ron suggested it should be a blog post. So be it: [4]http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:02:51 + To: [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net CC: [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ 5. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
So then, what is the reason of the difference between the way British Library acts and how for example the great Munich Library does? There are even many lute mss. in the Munich free scans already! Perhaps more capitalism and market economy in the UK? Less funding to culture? Just wondering, Arto PS Luckily our network of 'friends in lute' often helps! :-)) On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:25:39 -, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Hi Donna You have said it all. Easier said than done. And even if the British Library do start digitizing things they wont start with lute manuscripts, still less with baroque guitar manuscripts. We will just have to go on paying upfront for photocopies and mircrofilms. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Ron Andrico To: [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? (Donna here) Thanks, Monica. My last day job was digitizing materials for Cornell's Rare Manuscript Library, and my response to this thread became so long-winded that Ron suggested it should be a blog post. So be it: [4]http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:02:51 + To: [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net CC: [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
So then, what is the reason of the difference between the way British Library acts and how for example the great Munich Library does? There are even many lute mss. in the Munich free scans already! Perhaps more capitalism and market economy in the UK? Less funding to culture? Short answer - Yes. the Uk is a cultural desert inhabited mainly by Philistines. Arto PS Luckily our network of 'friends in lute' often helps! :-)) Yes - what would we do without it. Monica On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:25:39 -, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Hi Donna You have said it all. Easier said than done. And even if the British Library do start digitizing things they wont start with lute manuscripts, still less with baroque guitar manuscripts. We will just have to go on paying upfront for photocopies and mircrofilms. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Ron Andrico To: [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? (Donna here) Thanks, Monica. My last day job was digitizing materials for Cornell's Rare Manuscript Library, and my response to this thread became so long-winded that Ron suggested it should be a blog post. So be it: [4]http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:02:51 + To: [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net CC: [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
The libraries need money to continue their important work. There are persons scattered around the world with keen interest in having some of these libraries' holdings digitized (such as lute enthusiasts). Wouldn't it be the best of both worlds if groups of enthusiasts could 'organize': Through the miracle of the internet, a central site could have enthusiasts 'vote' on which manuscripts would be the highest priority to digitize and offer online. A person, or entity could negotiate a monetary amount for that digitization with said library, enthusiasts could contribute toward this cost, and, voila, the desired manuscript is available. As mentioned below, this still offers the possibility of a publisher publishing with scholarly editorials, concordances, etc. It could be a win - win - win. Is it possible? trj -Original Message- From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:02 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? So then, what is the reason of the difference between the way British Library acts and how for example the great Munich Library does? There are even many lute mss. in the Munich free scans already! Perhaps more capitalism and market economy in the UK? Less funding to culture? Short answer - Yes. the Uk is a cultural desert inhabited mainly by Philistines. Arto PS Luckily our network of 'friends in lute' often helps! :-)) Yes - what would we do without it. Monica On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:25:39 -, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Hi Donna You have said it all. Easier said than done. And even if the British Library do start digitizing things they wont start with lute manuscripts, still less with baroque guitar manuscripts. We will just have to go on paying upfront for photocopies and mircrofilms. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Ron Andrico To: [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? (Donna here) Thanks, Monica. My last day job was digitizing materials for Cornell's Rare Manuscript Library, and my response to this thread became so long-winded that Ron suggested it should be a blog post. So be it: [4]http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/just-put-it-all-online/ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:02:51 + To: [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net CC: [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
On 11/11/10 7:02 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica Having had a cherished opportunity to peruse the unique Capirola ms in Chicago, I can heartily agree with your sentiment. However, I was too much in awe of the thing to even think of trying to play from it! Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Leonard, you wouldn't possibly have made a note of that elusive GREEN sign in Recercar 2 did you? I can't seem to find it in the SPES facsimile. Text at end of recercar 13: Sapi che poi principiare a sonare el 2. recercar fin a quel segno fato de verde che vien poi intrare in questo et sta melgio. O fa come te piace. Know, that you can start with playing the 2nd recercar upto the sign drawn in green, then you can play this one, and that is better. Or do as you please. And Hooray for all the sensible libraries and kind people on this list who are willing to share PDF's of lute facsimiles. The London and Paris national libraries are sad rip-offs! Shame on them! G. - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? On 11/11/10 7:02 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica Having had a cherished opportunity to peruse the unique Capirola ms in Chicago, I can heartily agree with your sentiment. However, I was too much in awe of the thing to even think of trying to play from it! Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music epartments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3250 - Release Date: 11/11/10 08:34:00
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
David, Yes, indeed, as do academic presses in general. University presses are among the worst offenders, with many volumes priced out of the range of individual buyers. I suppose they have to do something to recoup the losses from the limited appeal of many specialized subjects. But are these artificially inflated prices sustainable? Won't libraries just stop buying stuff they determine is not as important as X or Z? Who can blame them if they need to make these budgetary decisions, but how scary is that? Publishers in turn will stop publishing the things that aren't so important... Things are increasingly turning to online resources, but this raises real issues of ephemerality. What is the probability that someone a hundred years from now will be able to access the exact online information that people the people in 2010 accessed? The long-term survivability of much of today's information might very well depend on loose printouts, made and preserved at some anonymous user's whim. Digital storage media has also shown that it is far less reliable than first believed (CDRs only have about a ten year shelf life, for example.) Wow, that's much more of a free association rant than I first intended. Anyway, I suppose it goes to show that the accomplishments of our civilization hang by a much thinner thread than any of us realize. All of our artifacts might ultimately be far less permanent than the wooden ceiling of an ancient Greek temple. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Thu, 11/11/10, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 8:54 PM By charging high prices, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for these facsimile editions, the libraries are deprived of resources. The publishers count on extracting a toll from libraries. dt At 04:02 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote: As a retired librarian it seems to me that everyone will be better off if you have your way except the poor old libraries and librarians who need money to keep their heads above water. Without us there wouldn't be any books available or a decent place to read them. Why should people make money out of doing an edition or even publishing a facsimile but the not the people and organizations who have made sure that these things are preserved in the first place? In any case even a facsimile is not a substitute for seeing the real thing. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
For everyone who buys one, there are a hundred who will not. It will all be online eventually, so why not do it now? So everyone can be wiser and more musical. I think if someone is faced with a decision, hey, I can charge for this, or give it freely to the world, well, there is a choice that is more than a personal decision, because it is a question of whether it is part of our greater musical society. And I don't want my facsimiles cleaned up. Just put it all online please, before I croak. And thanks to those who do. dt At 03:24 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... One wonders how aware YOU are, you completely ignore a major effort underway several years now by the BM and other holders of printed book sources of prose as well as music. EEBO - Early English Books Online. (see http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home) Patience my friend, it takes funds to do this work, but it is happening for music and other information (eg, fines, calendars, other records of the UK are being translated, keyworded, and made available online in searchable form). -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries?
hi david, digitalizing costs a lot - for equipment and personal. the munich BSB is doing a great job in preparing such a lot of digitals for us, but first for preserving their treasures, too. if we are looking to cologne, we know, what it means, if such a large archive is destroyed. http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?c=digitalisierung-scannerl=de on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y16rNqnxj0U greetings w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:45:25 -0800 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? For everyone who buys one, there are a hundred who will not. It will all be online eventually, so why not do it now? So everyone can be wiser and more musical. I think if someone is faced with a decision, hey, I can charge for this, or give it freely to the world, well, there is a choice that is more than a personal decision, because it is a question of whether it is part of our greater musical society. And I don't want my facsimiles cleaned up. Just put it all online please, before I croak. And thanks to those who do. dt At 03:24 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Hello David All: While I agree in concept that the facsimiles should be available, and that providing access to the source material is a good thing, I don't necessarily believe charging for facsimiles is evil. Perhaps you meant 'a necessary evil'? The work that goes into preparing a facsimile; photographing, maximizing its legibility, concordances if they are part of the package, reproducing, binding and conveying to players, certainly is not carried out by nefarious, money-grubbing Dick Cheney types (as a reference for evil personified). Well probably not anyway. I appreciate all of my Boethius and Minkoff facsimiles and, even if they cost as much as a small house, they don't smell of sulfur when I crack the covers. Ron Andrico Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:33:08 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: More digital facsimiles from the (public) libraries? Although I understand all of the issues, including compensating ppl for their time, charging money for facsimiles is basically evil, and in the long run everyone will be better served by having more music available--more concerts, more audience, more work. What all libraries should do is just put it all online, and then if someone wants to make an edition and sell it, fine. Just make a PDF, and upload it, and I guarantee that everyone will benefit. This also prevents players from owning a repertory by limiting access. If scholars want to sell the commentary as a separate book, that is also fine, and continues an established tradition. dt At 12:32 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Still something that I don't get: why are some public (public) libraries slowly making all their MS available as a digital download - and I'm thinking about the the Bayerisch Staatsbibliothek here in Munich, between others -, while there are other PUBLIC libraries (hello, British Library ...) - that still do not even seem to envisage that ... Shall we (as single members of the list) put some pressure on our local libraries? Send an email to the curators of their music departments - maybe as rightful, registered members of the library, as I guess some of us are - and ask about it? (Of course, this doesn't want to diminuish at all the value of such pubblication as the Dd.2.11 by the Lute Society. The scholarship part is something you dont get in a digital facsimile ...) Your opinion, listers? Matteo On 10 November 2010 20:19, Denys Stephens [1]denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk wrote: [...] It's also worth noting that whilst some of the world's libraries are making digital copies of their musical sources available, there is currently no expectation that this, or indeed any of the Cambridge University Library manuscripts will become available as free electronic downloads. Denys -- References 1. mailto:denyssteph...@ukonline.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
