[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Guilherme Barroso]

   Hello all,

   I don't know any source of Portuguese lute music but there is at least
   one of baroque guitar. It is called "O livro do conde de Redondo" and
   the facsimile was edited by Lusitana Musica.

   All the best,

   
   Guilherme Barroso
   [1]www.guilherme-barroso.com

   On 5 Jan 2020, at 18:47, Roman Turovsky <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   All of Jordi Savall's CDs have him as De M.
   RT
   On 1/5/2020 12:24 PM, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:

 The title page of the Libro de motes … has Luys Milan too
 I have not seen El Cortesano for quite a while …
 All best
 Joachim
 -Original-Nachricht-
     Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
 Datum: 2020-01-05T10:13:43+0100
 Von: "Albert Reyerman" <[3]albertreyer...@kabelmail.de>
 An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
 "[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Wrong, Tristan.
 The only source we have with his name given
 is EL MAESTRO.
 Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
 No apostroph.
 Regards
 Albert
 TREE  EDITION
 Albert Reyerman
 Finkenberg 89
 23558 Luebeck
 Germany
 [7]albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
 www.tree-edition.com
 0451 899 78 48
 ---
 Fine Art Paintings
 Anke Reyerman
 www.anke-reyerman.de
 Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 May I just add something outrageous:
 This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not
 of
 Italian origin?
 On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:

 Dear Ron,
 Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of
 speculations where the known facts points in another direction.
 While
 there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán,
 especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of
 Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together
 Milán
 and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of
 a
 vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their
 publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way
 of
 knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on
 Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In
 my
 view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical
 influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I cannot give
 credence
 to them.
 On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and
 Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later
 phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier
 Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The
 mere
 fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed
 to
 the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention
 the
 altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact
 that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at
 the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a
 member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their
 "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of
 tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct
 comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.
 I �m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me
 that
 Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great
 composers
 intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own
 music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion
 is
 firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.
 Best wishes,
 Antonio
   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico
  wrote:
 Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are
 such a
champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a
 pioneer in
Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and
 its
significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier
 example
of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the
 large
amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana
 (1552)
and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several
 intabulations of
music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert,
 Josquin,
Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there i

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Roman Turovsky]

All of Jordi Savall's CDs have him as De M.
RT

On 1/5/2020 12:24 PM, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:

The title page of the Libro de motes … has Luys Milan too

I have not seen El Cortesano for quite a while …

All best

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Datum: 2020-01-05T10:13:43+0100
Von: "Albert Reyerman" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 


Wrong, Tristan.

The only source we have with his name given
is EL MAESTRO.
Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
No apostroph.

Regards
Albert

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de

Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

May I just add something outrageous:


This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
Italian origin?


On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of
speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While
there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán,
especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of
Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán
and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a
vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of
knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on
Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my
view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical
influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I cannot give credence
to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and
Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later
phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere
fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to
the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the
altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact
that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at
the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a
member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their
"nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of
tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct
comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that
Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers
intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own
music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is
firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.

Best wishes,
Antonio






   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico
 wrote:





     Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are
such a
    champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a
pioneer in
    Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
    significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
    speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
    including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
    of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
    amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana
(1552)
    and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several
intabulations of
    music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
    Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
    had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

    RA
__

    From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
     on behalf of Antonio Corona
    
    Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
    To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

    Oops ... a mistake.
    In the paragraph wich reads:
    Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
    of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has
little
    in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was
published in
    a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
    the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
    Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
    1561, a long time after.
    The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
    publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
    1535)

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

The title page of the Libro de motes … has Luys Milan too

I have not seen El Cortesano for quite a while …

All best

Joachim 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Datum: 2020-01-05T10:13:43+0100
Von: "Albert Reyerman" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 


Wrong, Tristan.

The only source we have with his name given
is EL MAESTRO.
Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
No apostroph.

Regards
Albert

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de

Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> May I just add something outrageous:
>
>
> This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
> Italian origin?
>
>
> On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:
>> Dear Ron,
>>
>> Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of 
>> speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While 
>> there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, 
>> especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of 
>> Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán 
>> and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a 
>> vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
>> publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of 
>> knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on 
>> Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my 
>> view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical 
>> influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I cannot give credence 
>> to them.
>>
>> On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and 
>> Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later 
>> phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
>> Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere 
>> fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to 
>> the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the 
>> altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact 
>> that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at 
>> the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a 
>> member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their 
>> "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of 
>> tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct 
>> comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.
>>
>> I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that 
>> Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers 
>> intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own 
>> music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is 
>> firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are 
>> such a
>>    champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a 
>> pioneer in
>>    Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
>>    significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
>>    speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
>>    including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
>>    of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
>>    amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana 
>> (1552)
>>    and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several 
>> intabulations of
>>    music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
>>    Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
>>    had access to examples for his instrumental settings.
>>
>>    RA
>> __
>>
>>    From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>     on behalf of Antonio Corona
>>    
>>    Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
>>    To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
>>
>>    Oops ... a mistake.
>>    In the paragr

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Roman Turovsky]

Interestingly there are only about a dozen Milans in the whole province 
of Valencia, some with the accent on A,

some without.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Italian extraction for the character in 
question.


The whole argument reminds me of an old epigram:

"Seven cities argue over Homer's citizenship.
He was a beggar in all seven of these!"

RT


On 1/5/2020 10:51 AM, Lex van Sante wrote:

Lluis del Milà is the the name in Catalan. In Castiliano the name is Luys (or 
alternatively Luis) Milan.
Cheers!
Lex

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone


Op 5 jan. 2020 om 14:17 heeft r.turov...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:

How come is he also known as Luis de Milan and Lluis del Mila’?
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Jan 5, 2020, at 4:16 AM, Albert Reyerman  wrote:

Wrong, Tristan.

The only source we have with his name given
is EL MAESTRO.
Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
No apostroph.

Regards
Albert

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de


Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

May I just add something outrageous:


This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
Italian origin?



On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:
Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations 
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a 
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the 
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe 
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely 
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing 
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there 
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in 
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely 
speculative.  I cannot give credence to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. 
Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a 
large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not 
to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both 
Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán 
was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), 
their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used 
should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same 
category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used 
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later 
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must 
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing 
more.

Best wishes,
Antonio







  On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
   amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
   and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
   music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
   Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
   had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

   RA
__

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Oops ... a mistake.
   In the paragraph wich reads:
   Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
   of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
   in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
   a Spanish translatio

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Lex van Sante]

Lluis del Milà is the the name in Catalan. In Castiliano the name is Luys (or 
alternatively Luis) Milan.
Cheers!
Lex

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

> Op 5 jan. 2020 om 14:17 heeft r.turov...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
> 
> How come is he also known as Luis de Milan and Lluis del Mila’?
> RT
> 
> 
> http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> 
>> On Jan 5, 2020, at 4:16 AM, Albert Reyerman  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Wrong, Tristan.
>> 
>> The only source we have with his name given
>> is EL MAESTRO.
>> Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
>> No apostroph.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Albert
>> 
>> TREE  EDITION
>> Albert Reyerman
>> Finkenberg 89
>> 23558 Luebeck
>> Germany
>> 
>> albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
>> www.tree-edition.com
>> 0451 899 78 48
>> ---
>> Fine Art Paintings
>> Anke Reyerman
>> www.anke-reyerman.de
>> 
>>>> Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
>>> May I just add something outrageous:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
>>> Italian origin?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>>> Dear Ron,
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of 
>>>> speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While 
>>>> there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially 
>>>> considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of 
>>>> Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán and Verdelot is 
>>>> pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a vague possibility 
>>>> (which I cannot share -the dates of their publications suggest otherwise); 
>>>> on the other hand, we have no way of knowing how much influence 
>>>> Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there is none to be 
>>>> found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in favour of an 
>>>> Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I 
>>>> cannot give credence to them.
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana 
>>>> is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school 
>>>> (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not 
>>>> be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a 
>>>> large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro 
>>>> -where there are none-, not to mention the altogether different style of 
>>>> their fantasias, as well as the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana 
>>>> were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán was 
>>>> an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the 
>>>> "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type 
>>>> of tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct 
>>>> comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.
>>>> 
>>>> I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan 
>>>> used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers 
>>>> intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own 
>>>> music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is 
>>>> firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Antonio
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>  On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
>>>>   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
>>>>   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
>>>>   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
>>>>   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
>>>>   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
>>>>   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll e

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[r . turovsky]

How come is he also known as Luis de Milan and Lluis del Mila’?
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Jan 5, 2020, at 4:16 AM, Albert Reyerman  
> wrote:
> 
> Wrong, Tristan.
> 
> The only source we have with his name given
> is EL MAESTRO.
> Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
> No apostroph.
> 
> Regards
> Albert
> 
> TREE  EDITION
> Albert Reyerman
> Finkenberg 89
> 23558 Luebeck
> Germany
> 
> albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
> www.tree-edition.com
> 0451 899 78 48
> ---
> Fine Art Paintings
> Anke Reyerman
> www.anke-reyerman.de
> 
>> Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
>> May I just add something outrageous:
>> 
>> 
>> This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
>> Italian origin?
>> 
>> 
>>> On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>> Dear Ron,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of 
>>> speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While there 
>>> is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially 
>>> considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of 
>>> Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán and Verdelot is 
>>> pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a vague possibility 
>>> (which I cannot share -the dates of their publications suggest otherwise); 
>>> on the other hand, we have no way of knowing how much influence 
>>> Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there is none to be 
>>> found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in favour of an 
>>> Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I 
>>> cannot give credence to them.
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana 
>>> is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school 
>>> (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be 
>>> used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large 
>>> amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where 
>>> there are none-, not to mention the altogether different style of their 
>>> fantasias, as well as the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were 
>>> professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an 
>>> amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the 
>>> "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type 
>>> of tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct 
>>> comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.
>>> 
>>> I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan 
>>> used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated 
>>> by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it 
>>> stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on 
>>> speculation and nothing more.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Antonio
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
>>>champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
>>>Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
>>>significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
>>>speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
>>>including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
>>>of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
>>>    amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
>>>and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
>>>music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
>>>Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
>>>had access to examples for his instrumental settings.
>>> 
>>>RA
>>> __
>>> 
>>>From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>  

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Albert Reyerman]

Wrong, Tristan.

The only source we have with his name given
is EL MAESTRO.
Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
No apostroph.

Regards
Albert

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de

Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

May I just add something outrageous:


This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
Italian origin?


On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of 
speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While 
there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, 
especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of 
Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán 
and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a 
vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of 
knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on 
Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my 
view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical 
influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I cannot give credence 
to them.


On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and 
Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later 
phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere 
fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to 
the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the 
altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact 
that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at 
the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a 
member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their 
"nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of 
tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct 
comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.


I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that 
Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers 
intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own 
music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is 
firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.


Best wishes,
Antonio






  On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:






    Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are 
such a
   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a 
pioneer in

   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
   amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana 
(1552)
   and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several 
intabulations of

   music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
   Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
   had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

   RA
__

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
    on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Oops ... a mistake.
   In the paragraph wich reads:
   Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
   of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has 
little
   in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was 
published in

   a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
   the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
   Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
   1561, a long time after.
   The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
   publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
   1535).
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html






.

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Dmitry Medvedev]

Dear Antonio,

Just to make clear what I meant by similarities: for example, compare 
the bass line for the first phrase ("Madonna per voi ardo") in 
Verdelot's madrigal with the bass line in Milan's piece; also the alto 
parts for the second phrase  ("Et voi non me'l credete"). Like I said 
before, I think they are too vague to jump to a conclusion, but they are 
similarities nevertheless. Other possible explanation could be that it's 
a mere coincidence, or that poetry itself suggested certain melodic and 
rhythmic patterns. I don't have ready answers, and I'm not even ready to 
develop the idea of possible Italian influence as far as Ron did, just 
looking at different possibilities.


Dmitry

On 1/4/2020 1:59 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations 
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a 
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the 
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe 
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely 
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing 
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there 
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in 
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely 
speculative.  I cannot give credence to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. 
Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a 
large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not 
to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both 
Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán 
was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), 
their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used 
should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same 
category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used 
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later 
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must 
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing 
more.

Best wishes,
Antonio






  On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





    Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
   amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
   and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
   music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
   Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
   had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

   RA
     __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
    on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Oops ... a mistake.
   In the paragraph wich reads:
   Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
   of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
   in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
   a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
   the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
   Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
   1561, a long time after.
   The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
   publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
   1535).
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Very simple: he is not Luis de Milán. It is certainly outrageous.


On the other hand, if you seriously want to learn more about the biography of 
Milán you can read:

Francesc Villanueva Serrano,“Poemas inéditos del vihuelista y escritor Luis 
Milán y nuevas consideraciones sobre su identidad: el ms. 2050 de la Biblioteca 
de Catalunya”, Anuario Musical, 66, 2011, pp. 61-118.









 On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 13:23:47 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:

 May I just add something outrageous:

This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of Italian 
origin?





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

May I just add something outrageous:


This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
Italian origin?


On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations 
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a 
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the 
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe 
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely 
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing 
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there 
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in 
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely 
speculative.  I cannot give credence to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. 
Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a 
large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not 
to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both 
Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán 
was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), 
their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used 
should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same 
category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used 
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later 
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must 
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing 
more.

Best wishes,
Antonio






  On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





    Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
   amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
   and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
   music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
   Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
   had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

   RA
     __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
    on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Oops ... a mistake.
   In the paragraph wich reads:
   Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
   of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
   in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
   a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
   the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
   Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
   1561, a long time after.
   The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
   publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
   1535).
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations 
where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a 
possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the 
viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe 
that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely 
on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing 
how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there 
is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in 
favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely 
speculative.  I cannot give credence to them.

On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, 
again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call 
it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be used as a 
basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large amount of 
intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, 
not to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as 
the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at 
the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a member of the 
lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian 
versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used should put us on our 
guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same 
category.

I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used 
the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later 
vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must 
stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing 
more.

Best wishes,
Antonio






 On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
 wrote:





   Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
  champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
  Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
  significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
  speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
  including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
  of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
  amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
  and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
  music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
  Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
  had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

  RA
    __

  From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   on behalf of Antonio Corona
  
  Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

  Oops ... a mistake.
  In the paragraph wich reads:
  Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
  of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
  in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
  a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
  the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
  Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
  1561, a long time after.
  The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
  publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
  1535).
  Best wishes,
  Antonio
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Ron Andrico]

   Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a
   champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a pioneer in
   Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
   significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
   speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
   including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
   of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
   amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552)
   and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of
   music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
   Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
   had access to examples for his instrumental settings.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Oops ... a mistake.
   In the paragraph wich reads:
   Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
   of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little
   in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in
   a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
   the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
   Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
   1561, a long time after.
   The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for
   publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is
   1535).
   Best wishes,
   Antonio
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Oops ... a mistake.

In the paragraph wich reads:

Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the 
Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with 
Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation 
by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El 
Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but 
his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after.

The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing 
El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535).

Best wishes,
Antonio



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Ron,

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you too. I cannot consider Milán as an 
anthologizer: I am not prepared take the leap of faith it requires to consider 
him so. When Milán borrowed a tune he acknowledged it: "Esta pauana que se 
sigue la sonada della se hizo en Ytalia y canta con ella vna letra que dize qua 
la bella franceschina la compostura que va sobrella es mia y es del otauo tono".

It is true that the author of Maddona per voi ardo is unknown, but we might 
safely place him it in the same italianate poetic tendency that the early 
vihuelists (Milán and Mudarra) favoured. Both vihuelists set to music texts by 
Petrarch and Sannazaro, endecasillabic poetry -as Madoona per voi ardo was too- 
that was coming into fashion in Spain at the time (authors such as Garcilaso or 
Boscan took it up later in Spanish). I would find it easier to believe that the 
text might have enjoyed some circulation than to find any link between Milán 
and Verdelot (if there is one please tell me) other than the fact that they 
both used the same text. Furthermore, the Intavolatura de li madrigali was 
published in Venice, with Scotto's printer mark, in 1536, that is, one year 
after the work on publishing El Maestro had begun; Il primo libro de Madrigali, 
for four voices was published in 1537, again by Scotto (the "Nouamente 
stampato" in the Cantus title-page dos not necessarily mean "pr!
 inted again" - it can also be read as "newly printed"). Both books contain, of 
course, the Maddona per voi ardo.

On the other hand, if we are to credit Milán's words, he never received a 
formal instruction in music: "siempre he sido tan inclinado a la musica/que 
puedo afirmar y dezir: que nunca tuue otro maestro sino a ella misma". This 
might be an exageration, but sometimes his counterpoint lends some credence to 
this statement.

We may speculate about the practice of borrowing but to me it is clear that 
when Milán used material upon which to compose he stated so plainly. There is 
however a point that is not subject to doubt: the influence (or rather the lack 
of it) of Castiglione upon Milán's Cortesano. This influence is limited to the 
fact that when he watched some ladies hold the book, he desired to be held as 
well in those lovely hands: "Hablandome con ciertas damas de Valencia: que 
tenian entre manos el Cortesano del conde Balthasar Castillon: Dixeron que me 
parescia del. Yo dixe. Mas querria ser vos conde, que no don Luys Milan: por 
estar en essas manos, donde yo querria estar. Respondieron las damas. Pues 
hazed vos vn otro: para que allegueys a veros en las manos que tanto os han 
dado de mano." Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal 
court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little 
in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, wa!
 s published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in 
which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time 
Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long 
time after.

I cannot help but remembering Diana Poulton's words about El Cortesano: "It is 
often stated that it is an imitation of Castiglione's work ... by those who 
have not read it".

Best wishes,
Antonio








 On Friday, 3 January 2020, 08:28:22 GMT-6, Ron Andrico  
wrote:


Dear Antonio:

I find this discussion intriguing.  While Milan was certainly a capable (if 
idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his published 
music may have at least been inspired by the work of others.  In fact, Milan 
did borrow heavily from Baldassare
 Castiglione’s Il Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali 
(undated) that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and 
available as early as Castiglione's book.

In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music was taught 
the rules of composing.  And while today we tend to measure a composer by the 
looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, there was a great deal of 
borrowing as a matter
 of course in the 16th century.  An anthologizer like Milan could very well 
have put his name on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that 
circulated as an unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique 
setting that showed off his dexterity
 with the many running quavers, an aspect we enjoy today.  In the 16th century 
either form would have been attributed solely to Milan because it was in his 
published book.

I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his cosmopolitan 
lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and put his stamp on it.

RA







From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 on behalf of Antonio Corona 


Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 

Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music any

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[r . turovsky]

And soberly put.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 12:58 PM, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:
> 
> Good points, Ron.
> 
> --Sarge
> 
>> On 1/3/2020 06:28, Ron Andrico wrote:
>>Dear Antonio:
>> 
>>I find this discussion intriguing.  While Milan was certainly a capable
>>(if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his
>>published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others.
>>In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il
>>Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated)
>>that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and
>>available as early as Castiglione's book.
>> 
>>In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music
>>was taught the rules of composing.  And while today we tend to measure
>>a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist,
>>there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th
>>century.  An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name
>>on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an
>>unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting
>>that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect
>>we enjoy today.  In the 16th century either form would have been
>>attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book.
>> 
>>I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his
>>cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and
>>put his stamp on it.
>>RA
>>  __
>> 
>>    From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>> on behalf of Antonio Corona
>>
>>Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM
>>To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
>> 
>>Dear Dmitry
>>I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation
>>implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion,
>>untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other
>>songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere.
>>Best wishes
>>Antonio
>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
>> wrote:
>> Dear Antonio,
>>I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's
>>madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly
>>too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but
>>perhaps
>>as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that
>>they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that
>>he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.
>>Dmitry
>>On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>> Dear Dmitry
>>>
>>> You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music
>>poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)
>>>
>>> On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
>>>> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna
>>per
>>>> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dmitry
>>>>
>>>> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something
>>without
>>>>> basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> About authorship:
>>>>>
>>>>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>>>>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>>>>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>>>>> sacadas y escritas

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.]

Good points, Ron.

--Sarge

On 1/3/2020 06:28, Ron Andrico wrote:

Dear Antonio:

I find this discussion intriguing.  While Milan was certainly a capable
(if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his
published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others.
In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il
Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated)
that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and
available as early as Castiglione's book.

In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music
was taught the rules of composing.  And while today we tend to measure
a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist,
there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th
century.  An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name
on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an
unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting
that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect
we enjoy today.  In the 16th century either form would have been
attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book.

I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his
cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and
put his stamp on it.
RA
  __

From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
 on behalf of Antonio Corona

Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

Dear Dmitry
I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation
implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion,
untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other
songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere.
Best wishes
Antonio
 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
 wrote:
 Dear Antonio,
I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's
madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly
too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but
perhaps
as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that
they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that
he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.
Dmitry
On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Dear Dmitry
>
> You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music
poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.
>
> Cheers
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)
>
> On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
>> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna
per
>> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dmitry
>>
>> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>
>>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something
without
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> About authorship:
>>>
>>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
>>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
>>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el
mio/pues
>>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual
[i.e.
>>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
>>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno
querria
>>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
>>>
>>> About the meaning of "componer":
>>>
>>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
>>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
>>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro
primeras
>>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos 

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Ron Andrico]

   Dear Antonio:

   I find this discussion intriguing.  While Milan was certainly a capable
   (if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his
   published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others.
   In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il
   Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated)
   that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and
   available as early as Castiglione's book.

   In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music
   was taught the rules of composing.  And while today we tend to measure
   a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist,
   there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th
   century.  An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name
   on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an
   unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting
   that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect
   we enjoy today.  In the 16th century either form would have been
   attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book.

   I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his
   cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and
   put his stamp on it.
   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Antonio Corona
   
   Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

   Dear Dmitry
   I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation
   implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion,
   untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other
   songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere.
   Best wishes
   Antonio
On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
wrote:
Dear Antonio,
   I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's
   madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly
   too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but
   perhaps
   as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that
   they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that
   he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.
   Dmitry
   On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
   > Dear Dmitry
   >
   > You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music
   poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.
   >
   > Cheers
   > Antonio
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev
wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)
   >
   > On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
   >> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna
   per
   >> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
   >>
   >> Cheers,
   >> Dmitry
   >>
   >> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
   >>
   >>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something
   without
   >>> basis.
   >>>
   >>> About authorship:
   >>>
   >>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
   >>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
   >>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
   >>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
   >>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
   >>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el
   mio/pues
   >>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual
   [i.e.
   >>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
   >>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno
   querria
   >>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
   >>>
   >>> About the meaning of "componer":
   >>>
   >>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
   >>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
   >>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro
   primeras
   >>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
   >>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es
   mia.
   >>>
   >>> About the villancicos:

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Dmitry

I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation implies a 
number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, untenable. Milan 
showed himself a competent composer in his other songs: I see no reason to 
brush this fact aside and look elsewhere.

Best wishes
Antonio








 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
 wrote:





 Dear Antonio,

I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's
madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly
too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps
as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that
they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that
he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.

Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Dear Dmitry
>
> You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by 
> Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.
>
> Cheers
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)
>
> On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
>> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per
>> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dmitry
>>
>> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>
>>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> About authorship:
>>>
>>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
>>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
>>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues
>>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e.
>>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
>>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria
>>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
>>>
>>> About the meaning of "componer":
>>>
>>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
>>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
>>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras
>>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
>>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.
>>>
>>> About the villancicos:
>>>
>>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y
>>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano
>>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian
>>> villancicos].
>>>
>>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y
>>> en portugues /y en ytaliano.
>>>
>>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y
>>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.
>>>
>>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun
>>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.
>>>
>>>
>>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano
>>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for
>>> singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as
>>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan
>>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia,
>>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?
>>>
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
 All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

 Cheers






     On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
  wrote:





     Are you sure?

 Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


 Happy New Year,

 T*


 On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>
> Happy New Year to all,
> Antonio
>
>
>
>       On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A.
> Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:
>
>         Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>         [1]here.
>         --Sarge
> --
> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
> 11132 Dell Ave
> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
> Home phone:  707-820-1759
> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Dmitry Medvedev]

Dear Antonio,

I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's 
madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly 
too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps 
as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that 
they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that 
he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own.


Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:

Dear Dmitry

You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by 
Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.

Cheers
Antonio







  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
 wrote:





  Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)

On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:

Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per
voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?

Cheers,
Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:


You would do well not to assume that I would state something without
basis.

About authorship:

Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues
seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e.
Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria
que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.

About the meaning of "componer":

Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras
son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.

About the villancicos:

Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y
tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano
y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian
villancicos].

Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y
en portugues /y en ytaliano.

Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y
portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.

Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun
esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.


Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano
(1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for
singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as
well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan
Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia,
assi temporales como espirituales (1562).








   On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
 wrote:





   Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






    On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
 wrote:





    Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



      On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A.
Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:

        Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
        [1]here.
        --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

        --

References

        1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
        2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
        3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Dear Dmitry

You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by 
Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music.

Cheers
Antonio







 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev 
 wrote:





 Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)

On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per
> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?
>
> Cheers,
> Dmitry
>
> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>
>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without
>> basis.
>>
>> About authorship:
>>
>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...]
>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he
>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia
>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su
>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me
>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues
>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e.
>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran
>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria
>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.
>>
>> About the meaning of "componer":
>>
>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en
>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y
>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras
>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada
>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.
>>
>> About the villancicos:
>>
>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y
>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano
>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian
>> villancicos].
>>
>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y
>> en portugues /y en ytaliano.
>>
>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y
>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.
>>
>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun
>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.
>>
>>
>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano
>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for
>> singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as
>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan
>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia,
>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?
>>
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Are you sure?
>>>
>>> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy New Year,
>>>
>>> T*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
 Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

 Happy New Year to all,
 Antonio



      On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A.
 Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:

        Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
        [1]here.
        --Sarge
 --
 Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
 11132 Dell Ave
 Forestville, CA 95436-9491
 Home phone:  707-820-1759
 Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
 "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

        --

 References

        1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
        2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
        3. http://www.gerbode.net/


 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


>>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Dmitry Medvedev]

Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :)

On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote:
Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per 
voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?


Cheers,
Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:

You would do well not to assume that I would state something without 
basis.


About authorship:

Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] 
Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he 
me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia 
sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su 
valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me 
tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues 
seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. 
Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran 
que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria 
que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.


About the meaning of "componer":

Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en 
su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y 
oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras 
son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada 
dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia.


About the villancicos:

Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y 
tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano 
y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian 
villancicos].


Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y 
en portugues /y en ytaliano.


Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y 
portugues y sonetos en ytaliano.


Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun 
esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.



Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano  
(1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for 
singing and playing his own works and not  those of somebody else, as 
well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan 
Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, 
assi temporales como espirituales (1562).









  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:






  Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






   On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:






   Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



     On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. 
Gerbode, M.D.  wrote:


       Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
       [1]here.
       --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

       --

References

       1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
       2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
       3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Dmitry Medvedev]

Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per 
voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan?


Cheers,
Dmitry

On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote:


You would do well not to assume that I would state something without basis.

About authorship:

Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] Compuesto por 
don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he me hallado vn libro hecho 
de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo 
tuuiese este libro perderia su valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que 
puede: Y si el me tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el 
mio/pues seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. 
Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran que no 
juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria que sus obras lo 
fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.

About the meaning of "componer":

Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en su ayre y 
compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y oues en todo remedan 
a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras son inuentadas por mi. las dos 
que se despues se siguen la sonada dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura 
sobre la sonada dellas es mia.

About the villancicos:

Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y tañer 
[...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano y en portugues y 
en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian villancicos].

Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y en 
portugues /y en ytaliano.

Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y portugues y 
sonetos en ytaliano.

Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun esta 
sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.


Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano  (1561) by 
Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for singing and playing 
his own works and not  those of somebody else, as well as the poetic 
interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan Fernández de Heredia in Las obras 
de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, assi temporales como espirituales (1562).








  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





  Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






   On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





   Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



     On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
 wrote:

       Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
       [1]here.
       --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

       --

References

       1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
       2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
       3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

You would do well not to assume that I would state something without basis.

About authorship:

Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] Compuesto por 
don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he me hallado vn libro hecho 
de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo 
tuuiese este libro perderia su valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que 
puede: Y si el me tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el 
mio/pues seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. 
Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran que no 
juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria que sus obras lo 
fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion.

About the meaning of "componer":

Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en su ayre y 
compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y oues en todo remedan 
a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras son inuentadas por mi. las dos 
que se despues se siguen la sonada dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura 
sobre la sonada dellas es mia.

About the villancicos:

Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y tañer 
[...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano y en portugues y 
en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian villancicos].

Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y en 
portugues /y en ytaliano.

Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y portugues y 
sonetos en ytaliano.

Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun esta 
sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta.


Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read  El cortesano  (1561) by 
Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for singing and playing 
his own works and not  those of somebody else, as well as the poetic 
interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan Fernández de Heredia in Las obras 
de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, assi temporales como espirituales (1562).








 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





 Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:
> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Are you sure?
>
> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
>
>
> Happy New Year,
>
> T*
>
>
> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>>
>> Happy New Year to all,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>    On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
>> wrote:
>>
>>      Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>>      [1]here.
>>      --Sarge
>> --
>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
>> 11132 Dell Ave
>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
>> Home phone:  707-820-1759
>> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>>
>>      --
>>
>> References
>>
>>      1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>>      2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>>      3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[r . turovsky]

It well may be a case of wishful thinking!))
RT 


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Jan 2, 2020, at 7:07 AM, Antonio Corona  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure?
> 
> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
> 
> 
> Happy New Year,
> 
> T*
> 
> 
>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>> 
>> Happy New Year to all,
>> Antonio
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>> [1]here.
>> --Sarge
>> --
>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
>> 11132 Dell Ave
>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
>> Home phone:  707-820-1759
>> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>> 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>> 2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>> 3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Joaquim Silva]

   Milan has 6 vilancicos in Portuguese language. For the first three
   (Quien amores ten, Falai mina amor, Poys dezeys que me quereis ben), he
   says "aqui empieçan los vilancicos portugueses" (here begin the
   portuguese vilancicos). For second set (Levayme amor, Um cuidado que
   mia vida ten, Perdida tenyo la color), he says "aqui empieçan los
   vilancicos en portugues" (here begin the vilancicos in portuguese).
   Maybe this means nothing about their authorship…

   For the use of the lute in Portugal, you can read "Le luth au Portugal
   aux XVe et XVIe siècles:
   <[1]https://www.academia.edu/5981904/Le_Luth_au_Portugal_Manuel_Morais>

   Happy 2020!

   Joaquim

   No dia 02/01/2020, às 11:56, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> escreveu:

   Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?
   :)
   On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:

 All the music in El Maestro is by Milán
 Cheers
  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
 <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  Are you sure?
 Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?
 Happy New Year,
 T*
 On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

 Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
 Happy New Year to all,
 Antonio
   On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode,
 M.D. <[4]sa...@gerbode.net> wrote:
 Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
 [1]here.
 --Sarge
 --
 Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2][5]sa...@gerbode.net)
 11132 Dell Ave
 Forestville, CA 95436-9491
 Home phone:  707-820-1759
 Website:  [3][6]http://www.gerbode.net
 "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
 --
 References
 1. [7]http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
 2. [8]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
 3. [9]http://www.gerbode.net/
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.academia.edu/5981904/Le_Luth_au_Portugal_Manuel_Morais
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   4. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   5. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   6. http://www.gerbode.net/
   7. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
   8. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   9. http://www.gerbode.net/
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption?


:)


On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote:

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






  On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





  Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



   On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
 wrote:

     Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
     [1]here.
     --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

     --

References

     1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
     2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
     3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

All the music in El Maestro is by Milán

Cheers






 On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann 
 wrote:





 Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:
> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.
>
> Happy New Year to all,
> Antonio
>
>
>
>  On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
> wrote:
>
>    Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
>    [1]here.
>    --Sarge
> --
> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
> 11132 Dell Ave
> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
> Home phone:  707-820-1759
> Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>
>    --
>
> References
>
>    1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
>    2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
>    3. http://www.gerbode.net/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

Are you sure?

Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos?


Happy New Year,

T*


On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote:

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



  On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
 wrote:

    Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
   [1]here.
   --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

   --

References

   1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
   2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Antonio Corona]

Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself.

Happy New Year to all,
Antonio



 On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. 
 wrote:

   Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
  [1]here.
  --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

  --

References

  1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
  2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
  3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.]

   Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37
   [1]here.
   --Sarge
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone:  707-820-1759
Website:  [3]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."

   --

References

   1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/
   2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
   3. http://www.gerbode.net/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Joaquim Silva]

No… That’s something I would like to do, but I have not the time.

Joaquim



> No dia 30/12/2019, às 19:47, Tristan von Neumann  
> escreveu:
> 
> Wow that's nice!
> 
> Do you have more?
> 
> I didn't try to intabulate vocal music so far, as there's already so
> much to play.
> 
> Of course, I won't want to do the work you already did.
> 
> If you send your intabulations to Sarge Gerbode, he will probably be
> happy to open a folder "Portuguese Renaissance Music for Lute".
> 
> 
> 
> On 30.12.19 18:13, Joaquim Silva wrote:
>> As far as I know, there is no Portuguese source of lute/vihuela music, only 
>> some cancioneiros, keyboard music and church music.
>> Maybe  you could intabulate some of these compositions. Here you have a 
>> small example:
>> 
>> 
>> Joaquim A. Silva
>> 
>> 
>>> No dia 30/12/2019, às 11:44, Tristan von Neumann  
>>> escreveu:
>>> 
>>> Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any results?...
>>> 
>>> I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
>>> 
>>> Any info?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

Wow that's nice!

Do you have more?

I didn't try to intabulate vocal music so far, as there's already so
much to play.

Of course, I won't want to do the work you already did.

If you send your intabulations to Sarge Gerbode, he will probably be
happy to open a folder "Portuguese Renaissance Music for Lute".



On 30.12.19 18:13, Joaquim Silva wrote:

As far as I know, there is no Portuguese source of lute/vihuela music, only 
some cancioneiros, keyboard music and church music.
Maybe  you could intabulate some of these compositions. Here you have a small 
example:


Joaquim A. Silva



No dia 30/12/2019, às 11:44, Tristan von Neumann  
escreveu:

Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any results?...

I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.

Any info?



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Stephan Olbertz]

   One of the vihuela manuscript sources has a connection to Portugal, I
   think it's the one with the drawing of a lute (!) player in a copy of a
   vihuela print. Cannot look it up at the moment.
   Regards
   Stephan

   Am 30. Dezember 2019 18:13:31 MEZ schrieb Joaquim Silva
   :

As far as I know, there is no Portuguese source of lute/vihuela music, only some
 cancioneiros, keyboard music and church music.
Maybe  you could intabulate some of these compositions. Here you have a small ex
ample:
<[1]http://www.jasilva.me/01/QuiereseMorirAnton.pdf>
Joaquim A. Silva

 No dia 30/12/2019, Ã s 11:44, Tristan von Neumann
  escreveu:
 Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any
 results?...
 I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
 Any info?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
   --

References

   1. http://www.jasilva.me/01/QuiereseMorirAnton.pdf
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Joaquim Silva]

As far as I know, there is no Portuguese source of lute/vihuela music, only 
some cancioneiros, keyboard music and church music. 
Maybe  you could intabulate some of these compositions. Here you have a small 
example:


Joaquim A. Silva


> No dia 30/12/2019, às 11:44, Tristan von Neumann  
> escreveu:
> 
> Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any results?...
> 
> I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
> 
> Any info?
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Christopher Stetson]

   Hello, Tristan and all.
   Tristan, you do ask the most interesting questions!   I have looked for
   traditional Portuguese music a bit from personal and local interest.
   There is a large, active Portuguese-American community near me in South
   Eastern Massuchusetts and Rhode Island and I have vintage,probably
   approaching antique, P. guitar made there, I guess around 1920.   My
   impression is that even today the music is primarily not notated.
   This is the only online resource that shows up:
   [1]http://www.fernandezmusic.com/PortugueseGuitarMethod.html
   However, a search in Portuguese might yield more.
   Looking forward to other replies.
   Wishing all a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2020.
   Chris.

   On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 8:39 AM [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   <[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I don't think there is any.
Sent from my Huawei phone
 Original Message 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
From: Tristan von Neumann
To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
CC:
 Yes. I don't doubt it.
 But where's the music...?
 On 30.12.19 13:09, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
 The modern Portuguese guitar used extensively in Fado music
 had
  its
 roots in the Citole, Cittern and English guitar during the
 time
  of
 popularity of the vihuela and baroque guitar in Spain.
 [1][5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
 Danny
 On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
 <[2][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
 Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield
 any
 results?...
 I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
 Any info?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
  References
 1. [8]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
 2. mailto:[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 3.
 [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.fernandezmusic.com/PortugueseGuitarMethod.html
   2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   3. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
   6. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
   9. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[s.wa...@ntlworld.com]

   I don't think there is any.
   Sent from my Huawei phone

    Original Message 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
   From: Tristan von Neumann
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   CC:

Yes. I don't doubt it.
But where's the music...?
On 30.12.19 13:09, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
The modern Portuguese guitar used extensively in Fado music had
 its
roots in the Citole, Cittern and English guitar during the time
 of
popularity of the vihuela and baroque guitar in Spain.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
Danny
On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
<[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any
results?...
I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
Any info?
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

   Yes. I don't doubt it.

   But where's the music...?

   On 30.12.19 13:09, Daniel Shoskes wrote:

   The modern Portuguese guitar used extensively in Fado music had its
   roots in the Citole, Cittern and English guitar during the time of
   popularity of the vihuela and baroque guitar in Spain.

   [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar

   Danny

   On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any
   results?...
   I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
   Any info?
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Tristan von Neumann]

   Yes. I don't doubt it.

   But where's the music...?

   On 30.12.19 13:09, Daniel Shoskes wrote:

   The modern Portuguese guitar used extensively in Fado music had its
   roots in the Citole, Cittern and English guitar during the time of
   popularity of the vihuela and baroque guitar in Spain.

   [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar

   Danny

   On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any
   results?...
   I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
   Any info?
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Daniel Shoskes]

   The modern Portuguese guitar used extensively in Fado music had its
   roots in the Citole, Cittern and English guitar during the time of
   popularity of the vihuela and baroque guitar in Spain.

   [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar

   Danny

   On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:44 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   Why does the search term "Portuguese Lute Music" not yield any
   results?...
   I'm sure there was some kind of lute instrument and music.
   Any info?
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html