[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Gosh Rob I'm sorry, but I don't remember saying anything about you at all. Joseph On 12/12/07 10:17 AM, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very clever, Joseph, but I never once said that 'Weiss hints that he used nails'. I see no evidence for that in Weiss' or my own comments. This one could run and run...I'm off to practice my new 11c... Rob = I think this might be a case of front-end loading. That is: looking at data from an established point of view - to whit: Weiss hints that he used nails - that's inconclusive. If Weiss hinted that he didn't use nails - that would be evidence. Joseph Mayes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Every classical guitarist I know carries a small swatch of sandpaper in his of her guitar case for smoothing fingertips. I'm surprised that this is at all contoversial. #600 wet and dry is a very fine grain sandpaper. How often do you play modern guitar, Rob? It seems to me that if you play 2 to 4 hours a day on nylon strings without nails calluses are inevitable. But maybe I'm an anatomical oddity in more ways than one. It's true that I have to be careful to smooth out my fingertips to play lute. An unfortunate fact of life if one continues to play guitar as well as lute, at least for me. Gary - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'gary digman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
I've been playing without nails for at least 30 years, and I play only metal-strung instruments. I have light calluses on my right hand, nothing like those on the left, but it never occurred to me to sand the right-hand fingers. Maybe I'll try it when I haven't got any concerts coming up. What do you see as the advantages, Gary? GDR On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:09 AM, gary digman wrote: Every classical guitarist I know carries a small swatch of sandpaper in his of her guitar case for smoothing fingertips. I'm surprised that this is at all contoversial. #600 wet and dry is a very fine grain sandpaper. How often do you play modern guitar, Rob? It seems to me that if you play 2 to 4 hours a day on nylon strings without nails calluses are inevitable. But maybe I'm an anatomical oddity in more ways than one. It's true that I have to be careful to smooth out my fingertips to play lute. An unfortunate fact of life if one continues to play guitar as well as lute, at least for me. Gary - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'gary digman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS- Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Calluses have a tendency to get rough. Sanding them smooths them out resulting in a cleaner sound. Roughness can excite unintended harmonics causing a less focused sound from the string, like pulling a fine tooth comb across the string. Gary - Original Message - From: Gregory Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I've been playing without nails for at least 30 years, and I play only metal-strung instruments. I have light calluses on my right hand, nothing like those on the left, but it never occurred to me to sand the right-hand fingers. Maybe I'll try it when I haven't got any concerts coming up. What do you see as the advantages, Gary? GDR On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:09 AM, gary digman wrote: Every classical guitarist I know carries a small swatch of sandpaper in his of her guitar case for smoothing fingertips. I'm surprised that this is at all contoversial. #600 wet and dry is a very fine grain sandpaper. How often do you play modern guitar, Rob? It seems to me that if you play 2 to 4 hours a day on nylon strings without nails calluses are inevitable. But maybe I'm an anatomical oddity in more ways than one. It's true that I have to be careful to smooth out my fingertips to play lute. An unfortunate fact of life if one continues to play guitar as well as lute, at least for me. Gary - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'gary digman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS- Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. Neither did I write one cannot play one kind of music with or without nails, just that you may notice the differences. Well it's simply because of your pre-conditioned approach to their music. You know (or you believe you know) that Sor wasn't using nails (i.e. because he or somebody else wrote about this or whatever). Did Piccinini, Castaldi, Robert de Visee, Weiss etc etc use nails or no nails? Can you spot that through their music? I very much doubt you can. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Weiss does mention that playing with nails is acceptable on the theorbo but not on the lute (I don't have the exact quote to hand) MH LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. Neither did I write one cannot play one kind of music with or without nails, just that you may notice the differences. Well it's simply because of your pre-conditioned approach to their music. You know (or you believe you know) that Sor wasn't using nails (i.e. because he or somebody else wrote about this or whatever). Did Piccinini, Castaldi, Robert de Visee, Weiss etc etc use nails or no nails? Can you spot that through their music? I very much doubt you can. I'm sure I cannot. I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not theorbo music. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Sorry, Gary, I didn't think I was being critical, and I hope you don't think I was. Certainly classical guitarists use paper everyday to smooth their nails, but I never thought they did it to their skin as well. But it's not how you get your sound that matters, ultimately, but what sound you get and how expressive you are with it. Again, no criticism. I was just surprised to hear that players sandpaper the skin of their fingertips. Using the touch pad of my laptop everyday probably has the same effect! BTW, on a weekly basis I probably play gut, nylon and steel strings. Still no calluses. I must pluck very lightly... Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 December 2007 10:09 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Every classical guitarist I know carries a small swatch of sandpaper in his of her guitar case for smoothing fingertips. I'm surprised that this is at all contoversial. #600 wet and dry is a very fine grain sandpaper. How often do you play modern guitar, Rob? It seems to me that if you play 2 to 4 hours a day on nylon strings without nails calluses are inevitable. But maybe I'm an anatomical oddity in more ways than one. It's true that I have to be careful to smooth out my fingertips to play lute. An unfortunate fact of life if one continues to play guitar as well as lute, at least for me. Gary - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'gary digman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:45 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: 12/9/2007 11:06 AM
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
My LH finger tipps wear callouses, but if my RH tipps did, I wouldn't be able to produce the delicate sound I so much appreciate of the lute. Mathias Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 December 2007 09:29 To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Go for a lesson with Nigel North. The first thing that happened when he didn't like my sound was to grab my right hand, check the finger tips, and start sanding! He comes equipped, no doubt expecting more of us to be blue collar lutenists than blue blood. Thank God he doesn't travel with a power sander. I haven't had nails since about 1970, but despite my best efforts a few days fo work have occurred, perhaps by mistake. Dan Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say, Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood - never done a day's work in my life. HRH Rob I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry) smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar. Gary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
aroslaw I don't think we are in complete disagreement, perhaps not in disagreement at all, although our individual taste for a type of music might be slightly different. I can't answer all the points you make, although I would like to. I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); while for the more structural composers who compose FOR the instrument, it may well be slightly less so. Your answer is convincing, but Bach is very much the second type of composer, I would think. I have to say, some of the vague historical evidence doesn't convince me if I can't hear it works in reality. Are you convinced by Bach recordings made on plain gut only? I am not. Nor I am convinced by Bach played on loaded gut. Loaded strings sound for me out of tune. And it doesn't matter how long I listen to it - can't get used to it because it doesn't draw me in. I am used to gut because I play renaissance music on the 7c lute strung all in gut, but for me it is convincing - THE MUSIC CALLS FOR GUT. In case of Bach I have a different feeling. Bach calls for much stronger bass (yes, we are talking about bas only, treble and mid has to be some kind of gut). MP writes that for lutes are only two possibilities in 18th century: He is one of those structural composers who no doubt did take account of the instrument for which he composed, but not to the same extent as a Couperin, or a Rameau, for example. I am not quite sure whether Bach may have played the lute, but even if he could, he would probably have composed FOR the lute, and not ON the lute. I think this is an important distinction. Although performing Bach's music on period instruments, with the tempo he would have expected, does seem to bring his music more alive. He also, certainly knew the timbre that he wanted from a particular instrument, and changing to a modern equivalent definitely loses that. Yesterday, I heard two Bach concertos directed by Pierre Hantai (on occasion from the harpsichord). The structure was clear and the rhythms very much a Baroque interpretation (the two are linked I think), and at ten rows in front of me was Pierre Boulez, who at the beginning of the concert made a short speech about the death of his good friend and colleague Stochausen. I somehow doubt whether he would have been there for a performance of Rameau. As a 'cerebral' composer himself, I imagine he sees himself as a son of Bach if you know what I mean. The two concertos were interspersed with minimalist compositions by Boulez, dialogues for solo instruments with a recorded shadow, remarkable soloists, actually. For each soloist there were three sound engineers shaping the shadow. I just want to make it clear that I am not a Our preconceptions about how Bach should sound also come from many years of hearing his music transposed on to various instruments (harpsichord to piano, lute or cello to guitar, etc). His music can support that more than say, a Rameau. However, concerning his lute music, would you say he composed, ON the lute, of FOR the lute? It does seem disputed in certain cases whether some of the music was initially composed for the lute. Even for the suite in G Minor, BWV 995 the musicologist, Claude Chauvel, says If the title leaves no ambiguity as to the destination of the work, the music on the other hand raises the problem of Bach's knowledge of the lute. how could one explain the awkward positions, the impracticable chords and above all the presence of the low G so important to the Prelude, but whose existence is attested to by no document, no tablature, no period instrument? The suite in G minor, though more in keeping than any other Bach's work with lute writing, was conceived ideally, beyond the limitations of the instrument. Astrée AS 912. This is very different to the point I was making about the performer/ composer playing with and to the limits of the instrument and its stringing (stretching its limits). Personally, my expectations of a Bach lute performance have been very much effected by that early Hopkinson set. It is often the case that the fist performance that grips you, becomes the reference by which you tend to judge other performances. The recording also happened to be excellent on LP, and many cd recordings did not reach that standard, whatever the stringing. Are you convinced by Bach recordings made on plain gut only? I am not. Nor I am convinced by Bach played on loaded gut. Loaded strings sound for me out of tune. And it doesn't matter how long I listen to it - can't get used to it because it doesn't draw me in. I am not sure what strings Paul Beier used on his Bach recordings, I do wish performers would give the sort of details that they used to give with the Astrée CNRS
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); Is that a gut feeling of yours? Having spent the last 20 years on composing ON the instrument I assure you that I haven't given even a single thought on authenticity in stringing. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Jaroslav Sorry for clipping your name, in my last message, just a few other words. But most of us know what the real piano is, so we either love it or hate it. The problem with the lute is that we are not quite sure what it really was in past. Then we are left with two possibilities: 1/ either we want to be authentic because we love old things, love history, touching old things awakes our imagination, it excites us to do exactly the same thing that people were doing in past centuries, or 2/ we believe that lute players from baroque (for example) were brainy folks and probably they invented the best instrument they could at that given moment. However the piano case (I can see and hear it and this is why I love it) is not our case. We choose something that we really don't know. We do more or less have to take the piano as it is, although I dare say you can choose special strings, and you definitely can choose the piano for different key tensions, and there are tonal differences between modern pianos, so that many performers do prefer a different instrument for different types of music; while some just want to use the one piano they know best. However, I agree there is a difference of degree when we consider the lute. With the lute, we are forced to choose different instrument-types for different periods We just have to decide how far we go along that path (can afford to, want to). Many lutists do seem to be as you describe them: coming from the guitar, they would like as much standardization as possible (the 8c standard lute thread comes to mind). Nevertheless, I think you are right, this does not favour a research attitude to strings or even lute types. It seems difficult to raise questions concerning the structure of the lute (barring, ribs, size), and why one structure might be better than another for a particular type of music. Many lutists do seem to look on this sort of question as a little bizarre and almost obsessive. When trying to discuss why the Frei/Frey lutes are now so prevalent over Malers in French Baroque music, for example, I found only a few lutists willing to discuss. Apparently most accept that a few models have just become standard, almost the mark of the trade, and don't see any reason to ask why. In relation to stringing, I realize I may be atypical, as I was drawn to the lute at the time those wonderful Astrée CNRS records appeared (and the similar Reflexe EMI), and there was a wonderful research feel to all those record sleeve notes, why they chose a particular lute, why they chose a particular string type, and notes by musicologists. This seems completely absent now. You hardly ever know why the performer chose a particular lute or strings. I think it is as though we are no longer in the pioneering age, we can just play, no explanations needed. Well of course CD notes are so small that it is hard to read them anyway. My teacher , way back then, was very much into gut, and I retired from lute playing just before the plastic revolution. Also I just happen to love sound texture almost over anything else (perhaps partly because I am a phonetician, but which comes first?). On the other hand I lost out completely on basic technique, so I am in the strange position of feeling I understand the reasons why I should choose a particular gut string, but sadly lacking in competence to make the best use of it. We all do have our history, and our reasons for looking for certain aspects in the music, or in our approach to playing it. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Regards Anthony Le 8 déc. 07 à 23:28, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, When we think about authenticity we have to ask ourselves what is the reason we want to be authentic. I can not say for anybody else, but for me the reason is quite simple. If one day I decide to study piano after hearing fantastic performance on this instrument I will probably trust my professor that the technique and the instrument complement each other and are at the stadium of development that originated from the generations of pianists and piano makers. I won't question why my piano has such a strings. Obviously I could if I don't like piano tone quality, but the instrument as some kind of keyboard. Then theoretically why not to experimentBut most of us know what the real piano is, so we either love it or hate it. The problem with the lute is that we are not quite sure what it really was in past. Then we are left with two possibilities: 1/ either we want to be authentic because we love old things, love history, touching old things awakes our imagination, it excites us to do exactly the same thing
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Roman Why should you? That was not my point at all. If you are composing on any instrument, you are probably experimenting with the sounds you can obtain with that instrument, as it is at the present moment. You might want to search for a different tonal presentation and change your strings for that reason, but why should you want to be an authentic Weiss, or Mouton? Now if someone interprets your music, and you used a particular string type to obtain a particular effect, they would probably need to do the same. That is the situation we are describing. Indeed, Satoh assures us that when he performs his own music that he composed with a particular lute and with plastic strings (or carbon, I don't remember which) and he tries to play it on his gut strung lute, it doesn't work well. On the other hand, the music he composed on the gut strung lute doesn't work so well when he strings it in carbon. Of course this may depend on the type of music you are composing, and the way you compose. If you are not at all into sound texture, but gleeful in melody, perhaps, it would be different. Perhaps when you interpret your own compositions, you need to remember whatever you used to compose, and be authentic to yourself. That is if it makes sense to separate two roles in your case. Perhaps you are always a composer/interpret, and never an interpreter of your own compositions. AH Le 9 déc. 07 à 14:30, Roman Turovsky a écrit : From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); Is that a gut feeling of yours? Having spent the last 20 years on composing ON the instrument I assure you that I haven't given even a single thought on authenticity in stringing. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Thank you David, in my last message to Roman, I was quoting from memory, what you had quoted to me from memory from Toyohiko Satoh. My memory being not quite what it was, I am pleased that the gist seems to be about right. Regards Anthony Le 9 déc. 07 à 16:06, LGS-Europe a écrit : Anthony wrote: I did make a distinction between performer/composers, who compose ON the instrument (seeking out its potential); for these, i feel, authenticity in stringing is particularly important); I once asked Toyohiko Satoh about that. He started on gut as a student, quickly changed to nylon for economical reasons, 'discovered' carbon and when he acquired his 1610 Greiff lute changed back to gut. He has been, and still is, a composer on the lute. Part of his work is written on a carbon-strung lute, and he finds the stringing did influence the outcome. In some pieces it is more obvious than others, apparently, but e.g. not all technically demanding parts work well on gut, and perfomance influencing aspects like tempo will have to be adapted to other stringing, because of difference in attack/delay. These are, freely translated, his thoughts on the subject. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
When I met Toyohiko in 1982, he was using nylon trebles that he twisted (with a small manual drill) to increase their density and make them more like gut. I tried it for a while; more trouble than it was worth. On Dec 9, 2007, at 7:06 AM, LGS-Europe wrote: I once asked Toyohiko Satoh about that. He started on gut as a student, quickly changed to nylon for economical reasons, 'discovered' carbon and when he acquired his 1610 Greiff lute changed back to gut. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why should you? That was not my point at all. If you are composing on any instrument, you are probably experimenting with the sounds you can obtain with that instrument, as it is at the present moment. Certainly not. You might want to search for a different tonal presentation and change your strings for that reason, but why should you want to be an authentic Weiss, or Mouton? I wouldn't. Now if someone interprets your music, and you used a particular string type to obtain a particular effect, they would probably need to do the same. That is the situation we are describing. I have lived long enough to experience being transcribed for classical guitar (shudder...). However there was no particular need of the same. Indeed, Satoh assures us that when he performs his own music that he composed with a particular lute and with plastic strings (or carbon, I don't remember which) and he tries to play it on his gut strung lute, it doesn't work well. On the other hand, the music he composed on the gut strung lute doesn't work so well when he strings it in carbon. That issue is entirely endemic to Satoh, whose music is entirely effect-based. Of course this may depend on the type of music you are composing, and the way you compose. If you are not at all into sound texture, but gleeful in melody, perhaps, it would be different. And it is. Perhaps when you interpret your own compositions, you need to remember whatever you used to compose, and be authentic to yourself. That is if it makes sense to separate two roles in your case. Perhaps you are always a composer/interpret, and never an interpreter of your own compositions. AH I am not much of an interpreter, but I doubt I ever do the same thing the same way twice. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. OK, you can replace 'baroque' guitar with theorbo if you want. ... I think we are all inspired by these players first and foremost. And that's what matters in the end. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings When I met Toyohiko in 1982, he was using nylon trebles that he twisted (with a small manual drill) to increase their density and make them more like gut. I tried it for a while; more trouble than it was worth. By the way, twisting doesn't increase density. It makes strings more flexible and so they fret more accurately (thick nylon strings in particularly), at the same time become quite unstable, i.e. go out of tune all the time. It is possible to 'fix' the twisting by heating the string all along its length so that it becomes more permanent but ... now that's all in the history. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Anthony, No, no, obviously this is not a disagreement. I never said I like plastic or that it doesn't matter what strings we use. It's just that I have a little bit an adventurous spirit and I take nothing for granted. I have to be convinced by experience. So in this case the only thing I did (simplifying) was to imagine a situation that I have a grandfather about 250 years old who was a lute player at Dresden court (for instance) and ask him a simple question: Grandpa, would you use overspun strings for basses to play Bach music? We don't know the answer, but we have the living ancient lute playing tradition. I am talking about Arab Oud players. The instruments and playing techniques are being continued from generations and this is one of the mainstream instruments in Muslim countries. And they use any strings they like. I don't have an impression that the music suffers in authenticity because of improper strings use. It would be difficult to find an Oud player with gut strings on his instrument. The same process we can observe in percussion world. I talked to traditional Darabuka maker in Istambul and he said that most professional players choose synthetic membranes because they sound better. We can find in traditional music world many symptoms of searching the best solutions to fulfill the new music requirements. Two weeks ago I visited again ( after some years) Victoria Albert Museum (London) to see the lute collection. I was very surprised to see that some of the lutes have fitted ivory frets. Was it done in 18th century or later when the even temperament became a standard I don't know. Anyway, to sum up, I am not against the gut! On the contrary I feel that this is the best material for many uses. Definitely for trebles and mid range. And the most of ornaments are executed within this span - they not often appear in bas. I love good mature wine too and hope that one day we will be able to acquire fantastic mature product to fulfill our musical needs, both authentic and satisfying our ears. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Absolutely, I never had such an impression and agree that we should push the boundaries in many different directions. Standardization is not a solution for a lute world. Yes, I have been enjoying the conversation too. Best regards Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Le 9 déc. 07 à 17:19, LGS-Europe a écrit : I wrote: Back to lute music: Anthony stated that he feels closer to a gut player/composer who wrote his music on his gut-strung lute, if I may be so free as to summarize his undoubtedly lengthy arguments so boldy. I sympathise with that feeling. It's related to David T.'s recurring statement that ornaments are so much better on gut strings. None of this is to refute your implied remark that a good player can make beautiful music on whatever strings, with or without nails on whatever instrumnts. I think we are all inspired by these players first and foremost. David David Please do feel free to summarise, It is not always easy to be brief when you are trying to pin something down without being dogmetic, trying tp deal the complexity of an issue (perhaps I just made it more complex). In fact you summarized correctly what I DO feel, closer to a gut player/composer who wrote his music on his gut-strung lute, but not what I was consciously trying to convey. So either this was constantly showing through, or I was just plain confusing, or both. To be ultra brief, and I will say it in a different way, not to repeat myself, that the limits of the technology with which a composer/performer have to contend can bring a sort of tension to the music, while the compser pushes at its limits, and also plays around with its qualities. In answer to a remark by Jaroslaw, I suggested that If you simply jump to the next technological stage (according to MP) when interpreting that music, because you feel the composer would have loved to be able to do that, at the time, you may just lose the interesting tensions that those particular limitations bring, as well as the specific qualities of the technology that the composer did indeed exploit; and lose some in sight into the aesthetics of the period (as MP's research constantly underlines). Although, the changing styles and string structure (octaves/unisson) for a single composer, even like Dowland, quickly makes a fool of authenticity per se; it is surely just one element in our approach to the music to bear in mind. However, you are quite right, I don't choose gut for this reason, but just because I love the sound and the texture. It makes my lute sound better, even when I don't play so well myself. Jaroslaw seems to love gut too, and as he was referring to Bach's lute music, who was a composer For an ideal lute, not ON the lute, there is a very small margin between our points of view, but you will have noticed, even in politics the arguments may be the strongest between two people who almost have the same view. Sorry for having been so bavard, Regards Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Jaroslaw Le 9 déc. 07 à 19:08, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Anthony, No, no, obviously this is not a disagreement. I never said I like plastic or that it doesn't matter what strings we use. It's just that I have a little bit an adventurous spirit and I take nothing for granted. I have to be convinced by experience. So in this case the only thing I did (simplifying) was to imagine a situation that I have a grandfather about 250 years old who was a lute player at Dresden court (for instance) and ask him a simple question: Grandpa, would you use overspun strings for basses to play Bach music? You are right, changes do occur, and when a technology becomes available many are happy to adopt it. Sometimes, it is because it is better, sometimes different. Usually, it is because the younger player is going into a territory occupied by a more experienced older player. New is younger and so better (or something like that). It is the same with painting as with musical composition. The new technology allows the artist to move into a new territory. the difference is perhaps that when we are painters, we are rarely just interpreters, unless we deliberately make pastiches. We don't know the answer, but we have the living ancient lute playing tradition. I am talking about Arab Oud players. The instruments and playing techniques are being continued from generations and this is one of the mainstream instruments in Muslim countries. And they use any strings they like. I don't have an impression that the music suffers in authenticity because of improper strings use. It would be difficult to find an Oud player with gut strings on his instrument. The same process we can observe in percussion world. I talked to traditional Darabuka maker in Istambul and he said that most professional players choose synthetic membranes because they sound better. We can find in traditional music world many symptoms of searching the best solutions to fulfill the new music requirements. May be they sound better to them, but may be the new technology just frees from an older aesthetics, and they want to venture into new territory. Like an old fashioned piece of clothing, the old technology suddenly seems ugly, but is it really any different than it was when we thought it was beautiful? They are all composer/musicians, are they not? At least the tradition is still alive, and changing, I imagine? Perhaps we can argue that to keep ancient music alive we must constantly change it. It is a point of view. Dowland, himself changed styles and string structure (octaves/ unisson) a few times during the course of his life, (so authenticity is a sliding goal, just one factor to bear in mind, and we inevitably end up with each one of us making a slightly different compromise, we may have his strings, almost, but that is still so little without his touch. ) and Dowland was still called stuffy and old fashioned by the young players, towards the end of his life. The lutist composer of today, like Roman T., or Satoh, is surely free to move into any new area they wish, so long as it has a meaning to them. I enjoy contemporary, classical music, Jazz and many of the musics you are mentionning. I would like to hear more contemporary music for the lute. Like yourself, I love adventure with sound, and that is one reason I do love gut. Two weeks ago I visited again ( after some years) Victoria Albert Museum (London) to see the lute collection. I was very surprised to see that some of the lutes have fitted ivory frets. Was it done in 18th century or later when the even temperament became a standard I don't know. We can be surprised and sometimes find that what we thought was authentic was not authentic at all, but often the simpler answer is the correct one. Anyway, to sum up, I am not against the gut! On the contrary I feel that this is the best material for many uses. Definitely for trebles and mid range. And the most of ornaments are executed within this span - they not often appear in bas. I love good mature wine too and hope that one day we will be able to acquire fantastic mature product to fulfill our musical needs, both authentic and satisfying our ears. I can but agree on both accounts. I hope, I do not give the impression I think there is only one way of doing things. That is far from my opinion. We need to push the boundaries, but in many different directions, it seems to me. I have been enjoying the conversation, many thanks Absolutely, I never had such an impression and agree that we should push the boundaries in many different directions. Standardization is not a solution for a lute world. Yes, I have been enjoying the conversation too. Best regards Thanks for this enjoyable bavardage I hope we have not gone on too long, Good night Anthony Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
winding is covered by a second one) 2. close wound 3. open wound (called demifilé by the French). Type 1. was probably used for bowed instruments with particularly short string length and low pitch (violoncello da spalla c.). Type 2. would seem to be the right one for the 13 course lute: but we would rather opt for type 3. upon an important consideration: from what we know about the metallurgic technology of the time it seems that it was not possible, at least in the common practice, to produce wires thinner than about .12 mm (see for example James Grassineau 'A Musical Dictionary' London, 1740 under the world 'wires'; see also the Cryselius's wire gauges and the 18th Nuremberg's wire gauge tables). As a consequence we think that it was not possible to produce wound strings for the 6th, 7th and 8th courses for the d-minor lute, even if we reduced the gut core to the point of completely unbalancing the Index of Metallicity and the mechanical stability of the string (faq 45). An open wound string was simple and efficient: by spacing the winding it was possible to come around the wire diameter problem, with one limitaton: here, too, it was the thinnest available wire that had to be employed in the production of the 6th string. What we are saying here is that open wound strings were not a transitional phenomenon, in the sense of bridging over the gap between all-gut and close wound strings, they were a clever stratagem that made it possible to come around the technological limitations of the wire manufacture of the time. So, MP suggests that close wound strings were in use at that time, but because of the manufacturing problems the open wound strings were preferred for lutes. Apparently we can see that the lute players were looking for heavier bas, but they probably couldn't use close wound strings as other instrumentalists for technological reasons. Now, one question pervades me: If there had been a technology allowing for the thin close wound strings to be manufactured, wouldn't it have been used by luthists in 18th century? I am not talking about the synthetic strings. Copper wound on any natural core (silk or gut) is 100% natural too. The only problem could be the unwanted resonance, but this I believe can be overcome with the proper playing technique. Regards Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I just remembered that this should have been addressed to Baroque lute, sorry about that AH Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 18:29, Daniel Winheld a ecrit : Looking forward to these strings. Thanks for the report. Dan Dan Following my message to you about loaded strings in the context of the problem of controlling the resonance of the basses on 13c swan- necks, it suddenly dawned on me that I had given a false impression, by mentioning this string type in the context of an 18th century lute model. After rereading Mimmo Peruffo's text closely, I noticed that according to his findings this technology had been completely abandoned and could not have appeared on an 18th century 13c swan neck lute, nor even probably on a 13c rider lute, see the explanations at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm http://tinyurl.com/2hj2sh Textual and iconographic evidence is given in this text/article above to confirm the hypothesis that Loaded strings could have appeared around 1570 and been used on 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, course of lutes, and even on 12th courses of certain 12c lutes. See the red bass strings on this Dutch 12c lute by an anonymous Dutch painter, 2nd half of the 17th Century : http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yweurd (Indeed Mace refers to the use of Lyons and deep red gut Pistoys on the 12 course lute) However, from about the beginning of the 18th century, the German 13 course lutes could have been strung with the new open wound strings, such as those found on the 12c double headed Mest lute. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Liuti_file/image019.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yq7aho Probably, loaded strings were soon abandoned, and completely replaced by open-wound strings. So loaded strings would certainly not have been available for 18th century swan neck lutes, and indeed the rather large oval or rather small round bridge holes would tend to prove this point (see below). In fact, I was trying to report, as objectively as possible, what my lutist neighbour had told me about Mimmo Peruffo's lute at Greenwich, which did have loaded basses from 7c down to the 11c, and open-wound strings on those of 12c and 13c. I was concentrating on this; although, in the back of my mind, I think I already felt that that MP was probably using his 13c lute, for his demonstration, as two lutes: an 11c lute with loaded basses, and a 13c lute with open-wound strings
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Anthony, When we think about authenticity we have to ask ourselves what is the reason we want to be authentic. I can not say for anybody else, but for me the reason is quite simple. If one day I decide to study piano after hearing fantastic performance on this instrument I will probably trust my professor that the technique and the instrument complement each other and are at the stadium of development that originated from the generations of pianists and piano makers. I won't question why my piano has such a strings. Obviously I could if I don't like piano tone quality, but the instrument as some kind of keyboard. Then theoretically why not to experimentBut most of us know what the real piano is, so we either love it or hate it. The problem with the lute is that we are not quite sure what it really was in past. Then we are left with two possibilities: 1/ either we want to be authentic because we love old things, love history, touching old things awakes our imagination, it excites us to do exactly the same thing that people were doing in past centuries, or 2/ we believe that lute players from baroque (for example) were brainy folks and probably they invented the best instrument they could at that given moment. However the piano case (I can see and hear it and this is why I love it) is not our case. We choose something that we really don't know. Now, each one of us love the lute for different reasons, but at some stage there had to be the case of hearing the convincing performance (this is how most people start studying instruments). If we were convinced by somebody playing all nylon strung lute than probably our taste would be formed by this experience. Most of us started from classical guitar playing so we have synthetics under the skin. But after having the pleasure of playing our first awful, heavy, full synthetic lute we enter this time (and money!!!) consuming path of experimenting with various types of strings, playing various lutes, discussing, sharing information, gathering historical data etc. These of us that are quite advanced in this journey won't use all synthetic strings unless pressed by concert conditions. I have to say, some of the vague historical evidence doesn't convince me if I can't hear it works in reality. Are you convinced by Bach recordings made on plain gut only? I am not. Nor I am convinced by Bach played on loaded gut. Loaded strings sound for me out of tune. And it doesn't matter how long I listen to it - can't get used to it because it doesn't draw me in. I am used to gut because I play renaissance music on the 7c lute strung all in gut, but for me it is convincing - THE MUSIC CALLS FOR GUT. In case of Bach I have a different feeling. Bach calls for much stronger bass (yes, we are talking about bas only, treble and mid has to be some kind of gut). MP writes that for lutes are only two possibilities in 18th century: 2. close wound 3. open wound (called demifilé by the French). Now, look at his comment on this: Type 2. would seem to be the right one for the 13 course lute: but we would rather opt for type 3. upon an important consideration: from what we know about the metallurgic technology of the time it seems that it was not possible, at least in the common practice, to produce wires thinner than about .12 mm Sorry for citing it again but, have you noticed that he says - type 2 would seem to be the right one for the 13 course lute ? I can't say for Mimmo but what it could mean is that the lutes were under rapid development at this moment and both luthiers and lute players were trying to fulfill requirements made by new music itself. We know that this battle was lost and the instrument became obsolete. But anyway they tried to be at pace with other instruments. I am convinced by Nigel North playing Bach on copper close wound (the bass is in perfect balance with treble gut and the copper wire doesn't give too long sustain if played properly), but obviously MP's newly produced demifile strings could be the answer for being both musically satisfied and historically correct at the same time. Regards Jaroslaw First authenticity, in relation to the instrument, does not of course guarantee authenticity in performance; it is only one factor that may assist the performer attain that goal, if indeed that is their goal. There are many other contradictory tensions that may draw some performers in other directions, such as a desire to satisfy the tastes of a modern audience, who may not stand a performer retuning every ten minutes, and might prefer a good tune to any complex polyphony that you the performer would like to give them. Obviously, every one resolves this contradiction in their own way, and there is no one answer for all performers and all playing contexts. Now if we limit ourselves to the subject of authenticity, this must always be a question of degree, and even of taste. It is impossible to reconstruct all the
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Anthony, Talking about the proper choice of strings for the lute can be very difficult. It is a very personal thing. We try to find historical evidence, but we struggle to make our instruments to sound best as well. As far as the historical data is concerned we can come to some conclusions. However if we talk about the tone quality , projection, balance, etc. we enter a very personal territory. But it is even difficult to be a good archeologist. To be 100% historically correct one would have to change strings for different repertoires. Now, this is what MP writes on his page about early 18th century bas strings: In the 18th century, wound strings can be grouped into three categories, all built around a gut core (at least up to the second half of the century - the earliest mention of wound on silk known to date is after 1760): 1. double wound (i.e. a first winding is covered by a second one) 2. close wound 3. open wound (called demifilé by the French). Type 1. was probably used for bowed instruments with particularly short string length and low pitch (violoncello da spalla c.). Type 2. would seem to be the right one for the 13 course lute: but we would rather opt for type 3. upon an important consideration: from what we know about the metallurgic technology of the time it seems that it was not possible, at least in the common practice, to produce wires thinner than about .12 mm (see for example James Grassineau 'A Musical Dictionary' London, 1740 under the world 'wires'; see also the Cryselius's wire gauges and the 18th Nuremberg's wire gauge tables). As a consequence we think that it was not possible to produce wound strings for the 6th, 7th and 8th courses for the d-minor lute, even if we reduced the gut core to the point of completely unbalancing the Index of Metallicity and the mechanical stability of the string (faq 45). An open wound string was simple and efficient: by spacing the winding it was possible to come around the wire diameter problem, with one limitaton: here, too, it was the thinnest available wire that had to be employed in the production of the 6th string. What we are saying here is that open wound strings were not a transitional phenomenon, in the sense of bridging over the gap between all-gut and close wound strings, they were a clever stratagem that made it possible to come around the technological limitations of the wire manufacture of the time. So, MP suggests that close wound strings were in use at that time, but because of the manufacturing problems the open wound strings were preferred for lutes. Apparently we can see that the lute players were looking for heavier bas, but they probably couldn't use close wound strings as other instrumentalists for technological reasons. Now, one question pervades me: If there had been a technology allowing for the thin close wound strings to be manufactured, wouldn't it have been used by luthists in 18th century? I am not talking about the synthetic strings. Copper wound on any natural core (silk or gut) is 100% natural too. The only problem could be the unwanted resonance, but this I believe can be overcome with the proper playing technique. Regards Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:04 PM To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings I just remembered that this should have been addressed to Baroque lute, sorry about that AH Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 18:29, Daniel Winheld a ecrit : Looking forward to these strings. Thanks for the report. Dan Dan Following my message to you about loaded strings in the context of the problem of controlling the resonance of the basses on 13c swan- necks, it suddenly dawned on me that I had given a false impression, by mentioning this string type in the context of an 18th century lute model. After rereading Mimmo Peruffo's text closely, I noticed that according to his findings this technology had been completely abandoned and could not have appeared on an 18th century 13c swan neck lute, nor even probably on a 13c rider lute, see the explanations at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm http://tinyurl.com/2hj2sh Textual and iconographic evidence is given in this text/article above to confirm the hypothesis that Loaded strings could have appeared around 1570 and been used on 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, course of lutes, and even on 12th courses of certain 12c lutes. See the red bass strings on this Dutch 12c lute by an anonymous Dutch painter, 2nd half of the 17th Century : http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yweurd (Indeed Mace refers to the use of Lyons and deep red gut Pistoys on the 12 course lute) However, from about the beginning of the 18th century, the German 13 course lutes could have been strung with the new open wound strings, such as those found on the 12c double headed
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Le 6 déc. 07 à 21:22, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Anthony, I read Mimmo's text carefully twice; (halfheimers, the brain glass is still half full) so I remember the different nuances of the different string specs applications- no false impressions created. Dan, I am sure many people did, but writing this down as a message to you had the dual purpose of apologizing if anyone had been lead astray, and clarifying my own ideas. That last is becoming more necessary, as time goes by ... In any case It's very good to know how all the different string types work- even if we go off by 50 or so years one direction or the other on the various lute-string combinations while working it out. My own 13 course rider thing (An ancient Bob Lundberg original; a semi/quasi-Hoffmann) has worn everything from snarly old Pyramids that sounded like a bad sitar to plain gut so thick you could use it to anchor a tugboat, and everything in between- including Lyon Healy harp strings, Dan Larson gimps, MP's first generation loads, and at this point the almost default position of Savarez copper overspuns w/nylgut octaves- possibly the least unsatisfactory compromise for an old lute that by present levels of excellence is not up to minimal standard anyway. One interesting product I've used for some time is the KFC (karbon-fibre gut) by Savarez- looks like plain gut embalmed in carbon fiber (KF) material, as they claim it to be. Sounds pretty good, very stable, but too stiff and thick past about 1.20 mm or so. Worked well on my old 8 course bass lute at 72 cm sl. Yes, I think experimentation is essential. Each lute (and each lutist) seems to respond well to slightly different stringing. If you don't try you will never know. Lutists and lute makers in past times may have been quite conservative, but without some experimentation, there would never have been any change in string technology. Quite probably different music types, even of the same period, might also work better with slightly different stringing and or lute types. Yes KFC does seem to be the best carbon type (or so every one reports). Even a purist like Jacob Heringman uses it on the 5th course in difficult conditions, but I thought as it became thinner, it also became more metallic (you seem to be saying the contrary, perhaps both extremes, too thick and too thin, are to be avoided). Someone recently told me that the overall effect is accumulative when you use a type of string. The more you use, the more the quality/ defect is exaggerated. Thus the more plastic you use the more plasticky the sound becomes, and the more gut you use the more --- y, it becomes (I don't really know what expression to use here, so I will allow anyone to fill in the slot, according to their attitude to gut). I could make a parallel with types of capacitor in a preamp. Some are insulated with various plastics, some with paper, some with mica, the material is clearly audible, and the more of them you have of the same type, the more obvious this becomes. In that particular case, I almost always mix and match to avoid any one defect. With my lute, I do tend the otherway, but that is a matter of taste and relates to the conditions in which I play. So it looks like we will eventually have access to mixing and matching (and mis-matching) all the relevant string/instrument categories in an informed and occasionally humorous ways. Loaded fundamentals with Titanium octaves on your six-course, anyone? I have one top string to try. Interestingly, for a synthetic, you need 0,47 to have the same tension as gut 0,42. This should mean a good finger/string contact. I will try to report when I have time to do the test. Although, I suspect one string will not have a very marked effect. One French lutist is using carbon mids and Titanium- Nylon tops. I am not sure what basses, or what octaves, but he reports that it is better than the previous material he tried. On the other thread, standard 8 course lute , it became obvious that there were several contradictory conditions and aims that lutists have to contend with, so each lutist just has to find his own particular level of compromise. This is bound to result in many different configurations and experiments, which no doubt are good for us all. Yes I agree with you, much variation is possible, so long as we know what we are doing (and what compromises we are making), and we don't fool ourselves more than is necessary. A little self fooling will always be present, and as you imply, the more serious we are, the more in danger we are, of self-foolery. It is never possible to completely reconstruct. The closest we can often get is sometimes a sort of metaphor, as it can only be a tiny part of the complete reality and its context. Nevertheless, to be able to try those loaded strings, which we see in that Charles Mouton portrait
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 18:29, Daniel Winheld a ecrit : Looking forward to these strings. Thanks for the report. Dan Dan Following my message to you about loaded strings in the context of the problem of controlling the resonance of the basses on 13c swan- necks, it suddenly dawned on me that I had given a false impression, by mentioning this string type in the context of an 18th century lute model. After rereading Mimmo Peruffo's text closely, I noticed that according to his findings this technology had been completely abandoned and could not have appeared on an 18th century 13c swan neck lute, nor even probably on a 13c rider lute, see the explanations at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm http://tinyurl.com/2hj2sh Textual and iconographic evidence is given in this text/article above to confirm the hypothesis that Loaded strings could have appeared around 1570 and been used on 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, course of lutes, and even on 12th courses of certain 12c lutes. See the red bass strings on this Dutch 12c lute by an anonymous Dutch painter, 2nd half of the 17th Century : http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yweurd (Indeed Mace refers to the use of Lyons and deep red gut Pistoys on the 12 course lute) However, from about the beginning of the 18th century, the German 13 course lutes could have been strung with the new open wound strings, such as those found on the 12c double headed Mest lute. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Liuti_file/image019.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yq7aho Probably, loaded strings were soon abandoned, and completely replaced by open-wound strings. So loaded strings would certainly not have been available for 18th century swan neck lutes, and indeed the rather large oval or rather small round bridge holes would tend to prove this point (see below). In fact, I was trying to report, as objectively as possible, what my lutist neighbour had told me about Mimmo Peruffo's lute at Greenwich, which did have loaded basses from 7c down to the 11c, and open-wound strings on those of 12c and 13c. I was concentrating on this; although, in the back of my mind, I think I already felt that that MP was probably using his 13c lute, for his demonstration, as two lutes: an 11c lute with loaded basses, and a 13c lute with open-wound strings; but this remained in the mists of my mind. It was only when I reread his text that I realized that must indeed have been the case; so I sent Mimmo a message, and he confirmed that he had intended to bring two lutes, an 11c, and a 13c, but finally found that it would be too complicated, as he was going both to Oxford as well as Greenwich, and decided he could only bring the one. Nevertheless this raises an interesting question, because my lutist neighbour found the combination excellent; so if both string types do eventually become available, would anything prevent players from mixing their strings in a non historical manner. It is certain that both Jakob Lindberg and Paul Beier did that sort of thing on their respective 11c Weiss records, as they combined the original loaded strings with Dan Larson Gimped Pistoys (Gimped Pistoys are a sort of mixture between loaded strings and open wound. They differ from open wound in having the wire twisted-in with the Pistoy tress). The fact that we see the two headed 12 string lutes (above), using the two different technologies, would presumably mean that the Mest was later restrung according to the new fashion; but I just wonder whether, even for a short time, the two technologies (open-wound and loaded) coexisted, and perhaps players might have mixed and matched, which would give some historic authenticity to such a technique. In any case, many modern lutists may just perhaps choose for the best sound, without too much concern for resulting authenticity. Indeed, there are many differing views in relation to this issue, which have often been aired on this list. However, this is not the point I want to develop, here. I am just looking at MP's findings, as one would the research of an archeologist, trying to reconstruct the technology of a certain period. This could simply be viewed as pure research aimed at broadening our knowledge of the conditions in which musicians played at a particular period and leave it at that (as for example when archeologists managed to revive the technology of flint knapping, which has no obvious immediate modern use). However, MP is also clearly hoping that adopting instruments and strings, closest to those used at a particular time, will give us a better understanding of the musical aesthetics of the period, claiming that the limits induced by the available technology would at least have been a contributing factor in this. Players, for example with loaded strings, would have been forced to play closer to the bridge, and with the sort of thumb down
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
I just remembered that this should have been addressed to Baroque lute, sorry about that AH Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 18:29, Daniel Winheld a ecrit : Looking forward to these strings. Thanks for the report. Dan Dan Following my message to you about loaded strings in the context of the problem of controlling the resonance of the basses on 13c swan- necks, it suddenly dawned on me that I had given a false impression, by mentioning this string type in the context of an 18th century lute model. After rereading Mimmo Peruffo's text closely, I noticed that according to his findings this technology had been completely abandoned and could not have appeared on an 18th century 13c swan neck lute, nor even probably on a 13c rider lute, see the explanations at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm http://tinyurl.com/2hj2sh Textual and iconographic evidence is given in this text/article above to confirm the hypothesis that Loaded strings could have appeared around 1570 and been used on 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, course of lutes, and even on 12th courses of certain 12c lutes. See the red bass strings on this Dutch 12c lute by an anonymous Dutch painter, 2nd half of the 17th Century : http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yweurd (Indeed Mace refers to the use of Lyons and deep red gut Pistoys on the 12 course lute) However, from about the beginning of the 18th century, the German 13 course lutes could have been strung with the new open wound strings, such as those found on the 12c double headed Mest lute. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Liuti_file/image019.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yq7aho Probably, loaded strings were soon abandoned, and completely replaced by open-wound strings. So loaded strings would certainly not have been available for 18th century swan neck lutes, and indeed the rather large oval or rather small round bridge holes would tend to prove this point (see below). In fact, I was trying to report, as objectively as possible, what my lutist neighbour had told me about Mimmo Peruffo's lute at Greenwich, which did have loaded basses from 7c down to the 11c, and open-wound strings on those of 12c and 13c. I was concentrating on this; although, in the back of my mind, I think I already felt that that MP was probably using his 13c lute, for his demonstration, as two lutes: an 11c lute with loaded basses, and a 13c lute with open-wound strings; but this remained in the mists of my mind. It was only when I reread his text that I realized that must indeed have been the case; so I sent Mimmo a message, and he confirmed that he had intended to bring two lutes, an 11c, and a 13c, but finally found that it would be too complicated, as he was going both to Oxford as well as Greenwich, and decided he could only bring the one. Nevertheless this raises an interesting question, because my lutist neighbour found the combination excellent; so if both string types do eventually become available, would anything prevent players from mixing their strings in a non historical manner. It is certain that both Jakob Lindberg and Paul Beier did that sort of thing on their respective 11c Weiss records, as they combined the original loaded strings with Dan Larson Gimped Pistoys (Gimped Pistoys are a sort of mixture between loaded strings and open wound. They differ from open wound in having the wire twisted-in with the Pistoy tress). The fact that we see the two headed 12 string lutes (above), using the two different technologies, would presumably mean that the Mest was later restrung according to the new fashion; but I just wonder whether, even for a short time, the two technologies (open-wound and loaded) coexisted, and perhaps players might have mixed and matched, which would give some historic authenticity to such a technique. In any case, many modern lutists may just perhaps choose for the best sound, without too much concern for resulting authenticity. Indeed, there are many differing views in relation to this issue, which have often been aired on this list. However, this is not the point I want to develop, here. I am just looking at MP's findings, as one would the research of an archeologist, trying to reconstruct the technology of a certain period. This could simply be viewed as pure research aimed at broadening our knowledge of the conditions in which musicians played at a particular period and leave it at that (as for example when archeologists managed to revive the technology of flint knapping, which has no obvious immediate modern use). However, MP is also clearly hoping that adopting instruments and strings, closest to those used at a particular time, will give us a better understanding of the musical aesthetics of the period, claiming that the limits induced by the available technology would at least have been a contributing factor in this. Players, for example with loaded
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Nigel According to Mimmo Peruffo, his new loaded strings would be more stable to temperature and humidity influences even than synthetics. I imagine this could be due to the loading by a sort of tanning process. Perhaps the oxide? covering protects the string. A lutist neighbour of mine had the possibility of actually trying out these strings on Mimmo Peruffo's lute in a small room at the Greenwich meeting, in England, for over an hour and with only two other persons present. Obviously the lute was completely strung in Aquila gut, but the middle strings were in Venice, the basses down to 11c were loaded, and the basses down to 13c were open wound Mest types. First, he was struck by the fact that the change from bass to middle, and to treble was so exceptionally smooth. This was a stated aim of MP in a message he sent to us; but this lutist felt he had never heard a lute with such a smooth change. He was a little surprised at the quality of the sound, as the lute itself had a crack in the soundboard. However, he tells me the basses really had him amazed. He says it might not be noticeable when you change one string, but when you have all loaded gut basses + Mest, there is a completely different response to the instrument. It is as though there is a slight delay and then a sudden development and then a rapid decay, (perhaps, like a consonant followed by a vowel), so that there is absolutely no overhang like with wirewounds. Actually, that sounds much like I have always found with gut basses; but on previous occasions, he told me, he had found gut basses just too thick, and unresponsive, these were different, he clained. The loaded strings must be thinner, of course. He said the sound is in some way more earthy with more texture. I think that means something like terroir for a wine, if you know what I mean. The whole sound seemed so well articulated, he said. Now, I do hope those strings will soon become available, but I certainly would not want to put Mimmo Peruffo under any pressure. I am sure his time (and my patience) is an essential ingredient, just like the production of a top wine … Best regards Anthony PS I am not myself down rating any other string types. I am not too bothered by thickish strings and I like Larson gimped. However, the more variation there is in gut strings the more chance there will be for finding the right strings for a particular lute. I am happy with Venice strings on my Gerle, because they allowed me to remove a certain bass heaviness, probably due to the plummy Gerle shape (well actually that is what the sound was like, plummy mid-bass). It is not clear that would be what you are looking for on a different shaped lute. Le 2 déc. 07 à 16:46, Nigel Solomon a écrit : Edward Martin wrote: Yes, Nigel, I do it all the time. In fact, I had a concert in humid August this year, in which I performed on a Scottich mandour, an 11 course, and a 13 course bass rider lute. All are in gut (that is all I have had for baroque lutes for the past 12 years), and I did not have to adjust one single peg to re-tune. The only time I have tuning trouble is when the climate is changed during performance (i.e. someone turns off air conditioner, etc) The gut these days is so much more stable than the gut of some years ago. I actually find it easier to deal with, as compared to wound strings. ed At 10:40 AM 12/2/2007 +0100, Nigel Solomon wrote: (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 - -- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti- virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Oh well, that told me! I guess you have to get to the venue hours before though to enable the instruments to adjust to the humidity. I am not flying a flag for synthetic strings, just that on the whole they are a little more reliable (particularly Pyramid wound which, despite sounding a bit tinny at first, just don't budge whatever the weather, etc. On my theorbo I have one wound Pyramid, the 6th (A) and I use it as a reference for keeping all the other strings in tune throughout the concert) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
