[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:02:15 +0100 To: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tinctoris The music in Banks' book would sound very different with the veiled, smokey sounds of viols compared to the ethereal plink of lutes. and this from earlier . . . I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several illustrations of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music was for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? I just thought I'd mention that pretty much every viol CD I have has at least one example, one piece or passage, of _plucked_ viols. The sound (on bass viols at least), is most reminiscent of a plucked _harp_ , more so than the sound of either a plucked lute or vihuela/viola/guitar. Very beautiful in any event, and appears to have been common enough, plucking that is. So, oddly enough, a consort of viols plucking together might sound more like a harp consort than anything else. So I guess any number of different atmospheres and dramatically different results might be had depending on which instrument you're plucking, and then also whether you're plucking or bowing -- but all still and potentially from a single same piece of entabulated lute-(family) music, or part-music of any kind arranged for lutes of any kind (plucked or bowed). Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Sean Smith wrote: A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? plucked violas work well, it is not always necessary to bow them to have music, the Collegium Musicum I played lute for had only one lute, but several gambas, on the rare occaisions when we wanted the effect of several plucked instruments we used the gambas a' mano. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Sat, Mar 18, 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: In a message dated 3/12/2006 6:42:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've often heard that those glued-on high frets are a modern invention. Is that still the prevailing theory? I dunno, we see long necked wire-strung instruments in late 16c (citterns et al) and music for them going high on the neck. We also see some lute music using high positions at the same time, perhaps this is crossover, and perhaps it drove makers to accomodate players desires. Perhaps the ambiguous marketing (...latest musique playable on tutti sorte di instrument...) obscures music intended for the long necked beasties. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
In a message dated 3/12/2006 6:42:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've often heard that those glued-on high frets are a modern invention. Is that still the prevailing theory? Hello Sean: Yes, I heard a lecture at Lute Society in Feb2002 by Tony Bailes and he said that glued on body frets were not added by makers until maybe the late 17th C. John Johnson, however, was known to have added body frets to his lute. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/12/2006 6:42:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've often heard that those glued-on high frets are a modern invention. Is that still the prevailing theory? Hello Sean: Yes, I heard a lecture at Lute Society in Feb2002 by Tony Bailes and he said that glued on body frets were not added by makers until maybe the late 17th C. John Johnson, however, was known to have added body frets to his lute. Kenneth I've got a home-made instrument, with five frets - because I haven't got around to tying any more on it. Notes above the fifth fret sound distinctly different from fretted notes. There's the problem of accuracy of finger placement, of course, but the timbre is different. I'd guess the same would be true even on a decently made instrument. So those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
--- Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? disaster! would sound like the instrument had suddenly lost its voice. even with tie-on frets, plucking an oud produces a mediocre sound - nothing as rich and resonate as when picked. without plectrum, those very early, oudy looking lutes - fret-less or otherwise - must have sounded pretty piano. if tie-on frets were preferred to fixed because they offered variable intonation, presumably, the little stack of frets glued to the face could sometimes be at odds with preceding notes. - bill early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
In a message dated 3/18/2006 12:31:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: --- Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? disaster! would sound like the instrument had suddenly lost its voice. even with tie-on frets, plucking an oud produces a mediocre sound - nothing as rich and resonate as when picked. without plectrum, those very early, oudy looking lutes - fret-less or otherwise - must have sounded pretty piano. if tie-on frets were preferred to fixed because they offered variable intonation, presumably, the little stack of frets glued to the face could sometimes be at odds with preceding notes. - bill --- To Bill and Stuart: Actually, this brings up an interesting point. I had my six course lute made by Grant Tomlinson intentionally leaving off the body frets. Very quickly I have become used to fingering the notes by the sense of the location for finger placement (and intonation by ear). By angling my fingertips as perpendicular as possible and also sharply plucking the string closer to the bridge, it is capable of a quite a nice and loud sound production. The difference in sound between fretless on the soundboard and the tied frets (it goes up to the eighth fret on my lute, although one of my other six course lutes has nine tied frets) is quite attractive once you get used to it (for ex. in the Dalza pavana alla venetiana in G major when the melody leaps up an octave you suddenly have to have to land on the invisible fret 12 and it is exciting for both the player and the audience, too). I had my lute radiographed at the neck join area and discovered that a short vertical bar is glued under the soundboard where these notes are fingered. This explains, too, why my lute is loud in this range. Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Ken, This is very enlightening. It sounds like some stiffening under the 12 fret area should be mentioned to one's luthier when having an early lute made. I've often played the glued frets and winced at the intonation. Sometimes I wonder about their placement and alternately wondered if my strings were going false (both nylgut and gut do). This would disappear when you have a choice where to place your finger. On the other hand (ok, same hand ;^), aren't there chord shapes up there in early books that request L's and K's? For these I wonder if there were bass or long tenor lutes that had, say, 10 frets on the neck. The longer string length would give more room for finger placement as well as more bass notes for general use. Incidently this would argue for Jon Banks' E lute proposal. On yet another hand, if one played a lot in the upper register, would a guittern or smaller plucked instrument be more feasible? Where do folks generally tune guitterns, citoles, and the like? best regards, Sean On Mar 18, 2006, at 10:30 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/18/2006 12:31:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: --- Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? disaster! would sound like the instrument had suddenly lost its voice. even with tie-on frets, plucking an oud produces a mediocre sound - nothing as rich and resonate as when picked. without plectrum, those very early, oudy looking lutes - fret-less or otherwise - must have sounded pretty piano. if tie-on frets were preferred to fixed because they offered variable intonation, presumably, the little stack of frets glued to the face could sometimes be at odds with preceding notes. - bill --- To Bill and Stuart: Actually, this brings up an interesting point. I had my six course lute made by Grant Tomlinson intentionally leaving off the body frets. Very quickly I have become used to fingering the notes by the sense of the location for finger placement (and intonation by ear). By angling my fingertips as perpendicular as possible and also sharply plucking the string closer to the bridge, it is capable of a quite a nice and loud sound production. The difference in sound between fretless on the soundboard and the tied frets (it goes up to the eighth fret on my lute, although one of my other six course lutes has nine tied frets) is quite attractive once you get used to it (for ex. in the Dalza pavana alla venetiana in G major when the melody leaps up an octave you suddenly have to have to land on the invisible fret 12 and it is exciting for both the player and the audience, too). I had my lute radiographed at the neck join area and discovered that a short vertical bar is glued under the soundboard where these notes are fingered. This explains, too, why my lute is loud in this range. Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Sean Smith wrote: Dear Ken, This is very enlightening. It sounds like some stiffening under the 12 fret area should be mentioned to one's luthier when having an early lute made. I've often played the glued frets and winced at the intonation. Sometimes I wonder about their placement and alternately wondered if my strings were going false (both nylgut and gut do). This would disappear when you have a choice where to place your finger. On the other hand (ok, same hand ;^), aren't there chord shapes up there in early books that request L's and K's? For these I wonder if there were bass or long tenor lutes that had, say, 10 frets on the neck. The longer string length would give more room for finger placement as well as more bass notes for general use. Incidently this would argue for Jon Banks' E lute proposal. On yet another hand, if one played a lot in the upper register, would a guittern or smaller plucked instrument be more feasible? Where do folks generally tune guitterns, citoles, and the like? best regards, Sean In a message on the medieval lute list, Jean-Paul Bazin suggested that Crawford Young's students tune their gitterns: G,D,G,C so the top string is a fourth above a G lute. That puts the lowest C, often the 'tonic', on the fifth fret, which is a bit strange - but it's useful to be able to go down to the low G. I like this tuning. Almost all the top parts in the pieces in Banks' book would fit this tuning very well. 'The Early Music Show' on BBC's Radio 3 today had a concert and discussion of early viol music. You can listen to it on the website. The sound didn't seem right and it was a bit disappointing. Anyway, Philip Thorby introduced some viol music from 1502 - the same period of the Banks' collection of pieces. So, according to Thorby, viol consorts were around then. The music in Banks' book would sound very different with the veiled, smokey sounds of viols compared to the ethereal plink of lutes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
I have just finished adding Hans Gerle's instructions to the Fret Placement Spreadsheet ( http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html#frets ). Even at the relatively late date of that reference (1532), he says, ...*if* you wish to add an eighth fret..., and makes no mention of any beyond that. On the other hand, artists renderings of vihuela/viola de/da mano-style instruments from the late 15th century often show 10 tied frets. Daniel Heiman On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:50:25 +0100 Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip So those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Stuart, Thanks! I've been tuning my descant lute to C and it sound like an easy jump over to the guittern --when I get around to getting one. That tuning makes a lot of sense. Do I understand the lowest string to be a 5th below its adjacent course? Btw, are these unison tunings? Is that a guittern on the back of Crawford's Intabulations CD? I have many of Philip Thorby's viol CDs (first bought because J Heringman was on them and later because I just loved the sound and subjects) and will tune into the show this afternoon. I do wish local viol players would make the make jump backwards. We have a strong viol community but every one wants a multi-use instrument which means soundposts and the rest of it. Sorry to just keep asking more questions as soon as a few answers come in. ;^) Sean In a message on the medieval lute list, Jean-Paul Bazin suggested that Crawford Young's students tune their gitterns: G,D,G,C so the top string is a fourth above a G lute. That puts the lowest C, often the 'tonic', on the fifth fret, which is a bit strange - but it's useful to be able to go down to the low G. I like this tuning. Almost all the top parts in the pieces in Banks' book would fit this tuning very well. 'The Early Music Show' on BBC's Radio 3 today had a concert and discussion of early viol music. You can listen to it on the website. The sound didn't seem right and it was a bit disappointing. Anyway, Philip Thorby introduced some viol music from 1502 - the same period of the Banks' collection of pieces. So, according to Thorby, viol consorts were around then. The music in Banks' book would sound very different with the veiled, smokey sounds of viols compared to the ethereal plink of lutes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On 3/19/06 8:02 PM, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message on the medieval lute list, Jean-Paul Bazin suggested that Crawford Young's students tune their gitterns: G,D,G,C so the top string is a fourth above a G lute. That puts the lowest C, often the 'tonic', on the fifth fret, which is a bit strange - but it's useful to be able to go down to the low G. I like this tuning. Yes, it is quite useful and yes, the c on the 5th fret tends to be awkward. If I need it, I actually prefer to tune the fourth course up a major second, that is to a, and it feels better. I like g-d-g'-c'' when I want to play a g-based drone, sounds great on my gittern. M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Thanks Daniel, It seems that instruments with *parallel* strings often got more frets on the neck. I'm thinking of guitars but this extends to citterns too. Another parallel is that these are strummable instruments. Am I reading too much into this? Talking to Andy Hartig (shameless plug: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/) it seems that even a u fret is mentioned. Yoww! Try that on a lute and you'll put your finger through the rosette. Sean On Mar 18, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Daniel F Heiman wrote: I have just finished adding Hans Gerle's instructions to the Fret Placement Spreadsheet ( http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html#frets ). Even at the relatively late date of that reference (1532), he says, ...*if* you wish to add an eighth fret..., and makes no mention of any beyond that. On the other hand, artists renderings of vihuela/viola de/da mano-style instruments from the late 15th century often show 10 tied frets. Daniel Heiman On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:50:25 +0100 Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip So those very high passages in Spinacino would suddenly go into oud mode? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
In a message dated 3/18/2006 2:35:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: aren't there chord shapes up there in early books that request L's and K's? For these I wonder if there were bass or long tenor lutes that had, say, 10 frets on the neck. The longer string length would give more room for finger placement as well as more bass notes for general use. -- Hello Sean: If you loosen your grip with your thumb or even release it altogether from the back of the neck you can go anywhere with your fingers down the string. (like modern day cellists). Yes, it is true that you can play in (or out of) tune without the frets, just using your aural sense of pitch. Interestingly, it has been proposed that the lute depicted in the Lorenzo Costa Concert painting in the London National Gallery has body fret positions merely inlaid as markers and as decorations, so strong was the tradition and preference to finger the notes directly on the soundboard. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:23 AM, Sean Smith wrote: Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. How do we know that? Sounds interesting. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:37 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: Possible reasons for this are that it was written out as part of someone lute lesson on how to play these chords, or that there was something about the intonation being better in these configurations. However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. What period are you talking about? Maybe an octave on the 6th and unison on 5th would make a big difference. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Thursday 16 March 2006 12:19, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:37 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: Possible reasons for this are that it was written out as part of someone lute lesson on how to play these chords, or that there was something about the intonation being better in these configurations. However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. What period are you talking about? Maybe an octave on the 6th and unison on 5th would make a big difference. When some kind of meantone tuning was used this could explain the use of the 5th fret. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
When some kind of meantone tuning was used this could explain the use of the 5th fret. Not for a fifth fret on the sixth course in meantone fretting. Same as open 5th course. In fact, I can't think of a temperament where the same note would be a different pitch. I was talking about stringing. The question was why choose the nominal C at the 5th fret 6th course instead of the open C on the 5th course. I have no idea of the context, but the possibility exists that the composer might have had his 6th course strung with an octave and the 5th strung with a unison which would make a marked difference. cheers, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
This is in his Regola Rubertina (1542). I'm sorry, Ed, I don't have it in front of me for the details. Sean On Mar 16, 2006, at 3:14 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:23 AM, Sean Smith wrote: Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. How do we know that? Sounds interesting. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
The music I was originally talking about was Carmen's Whistle by John Johnson, which I am playing on orpharion - wire strings which can easily be pulled out of tune with less than precise left hand fingering. Nancy On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:37 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: Possible reasons for this are that it was written out as part of someone lute lesson on how to play these chords, or that there was something about the intonation being better in these configurations. However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. What period are you talking about? Maybe an octave on the 6th and unison on 5th would make a big difference. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Leonard, Sean all, Concerning detuning the 5th course on a 5 course lute - this made me think of Dalza's pieces which require lowering both the fifth and sixth courses by a tone (the Pavana alla Ferrarese group starting on f.27v). It has never occured to me to think of it this way before, but that tuning could easily have derived from 5 course lute technique carried forward onto the 6c instrument. I think Sean's observation re: the Spinacino intabulations is extremely interesting. I have often wondered how long it took Spinacino to assemble the material for his two prints. He was clearly using a 6 course lute by the time the first was printed in 1507. If some were originally intabulated for a 5c lute it might suggest that it took a number of years to create that body of work. It's not proof, of course, but most of what we know about the Petrucci lutenists is from the books themselves, and every new insight helps to further our understanding of them. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tinctoris Sean-- You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no pictures from so early show one. Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions online? During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to playing with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two methods continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of holding the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with the fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the fingers was a novelty. However, the change was very significant for the lute's future development, for it allowed the playing of several parts at once, and meant that the huge repertoire of vocal part music both sacred and secular became available to lute players. This function was made easier by the invention about this time of special systems of notation known as tablature into which
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Sean-- You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no pictures from so early show one. Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions online? During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to playing with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two methods continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of holding the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with the fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the fingers was a novelty. However, the change was very significant for the lute's future development, for it allowed the playing of several parts at once, and meant that the huge repertoire of vocal part music both sacred and secular became available to lute players. This function was made easier by the invention about this time of special systems of notation known as tablature into which much of this repertoire was transcribed [intabulated]. There were three main kinds of tablature for the lute, developed in Germany, France and Italy respectively. A fourth early system, 'intavolatura alla Napolitana', was also used from time to time. Of the four main types the French may have been the earliest. Why is that? The German one was probably written during the lifetime of Conrad Paumann (d 1473), the supposed inventor of the system. Although Tinctoris had mentioned a six-course lute, these first tablatures, and indeed the very names by which the strings of the instrument were known, suggest five courses as still the most usual number at this time. Tinctoris also says (I believe it must be in the same treatise) that four-part playing was taking place. I don't suppose four parts are possible without the 6th course? Any ideas? Best greetings, Arne Keller. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Mar 12, 2006, at 11:02 AM, Leonard Williams wrote: Sean-- You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing question of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of tunings, it would be absurd to say This is how X tuned Y in the year Z in the year N A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos (ok, the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it was in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. all the best, Sean On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no pictures from so early show one. Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions online? During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to playing with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two methods continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of holding the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with the fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the fingers was a novelty. However, the change was very significant for the lute's future development, for it allowed the playing of several parts at once, and meant that the huge repertoire of vocal part music both sacred and secular
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
About those bass courses - I have just come across another place where there are some curious uses of stopped bass notes, when an open string would have been a lot easier. It's John Johnson's Carmen's Whistle. In addition to the bass notes there are some places where the fingering of the chord Johnson has chosen is more difficult than another option. Possible reasons for this are that it was written out as part of someone lute lesson on how to play these chords, or that there was something about the intonation being better in these configurations. However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Nancy Carlin Sean-- You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing question of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of tunings, it would be absurd to say This is how X tuned Y in the year Z in the year N A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos (ok, the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it was in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. all the best, Sean On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. On the other hand, maybe you tune it to be correct at those frets where it's stopped because: a) it sounds horrible as open b) if your thumb 'lives' somewhere on the bottom course, that becomes the open string. c) ?? The rates are lovely at the Hotel Speculation this time of year, aren't they? Sean Does anyone have any ideas about this? Nancy Carlin Sean-- You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing question of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of tunings, it would be absurd to say This is how X tuned Y in the year Z in the year N A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos (ok, the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it was in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. all the best, Sean On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no pictures from so early show one. Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions online? During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to playing with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two methods
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Sean Smith wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several illustrations of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music was for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Stuart, Long necks make a lot of sense. Fingering chords and polyphony w/ the left hand can get difficult up the neck --don't you just hate 'i's on the 6th course? Single lines are much easier and you still have that low range if you need it. Also, w/ a longer string length you get a larger space between the 12th and 11th fret, for example, than those little short necked turtles. I've often heard that those glued-on high frets are a modern invention. Is that still the prevailing theory? I wonder if early lutes offered more than 9 or 10 frets on the neck? I've often seen vihuelas w/ 10 tied frets and my ren guitar has 11. Maybe that was the waisted instruments' lure Sean On Mar 12, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Sean Smith wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several illustrations of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music was for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Dear All, in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is mentioned that: Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no pictures from so early show one. Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions online? During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to playing with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two methods continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of holding the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with the fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the fingers was a novelty. However, the change was very significant for the lute's future development, for it allowed the playing of several parts at once, and meant that the huge repertoire of vocal part music both sacred and secular became available to lute players. This function was made easier by the invention about this time of special systems of notation known as tablature into which much of this repertoire was transcribed [intabulated]. There were three main kinds of tablature for the lute, developed in Germany, France and Italy respectively. A fourth early system, 'intavolatura alla Napolitana', was also used from time to time. Of the four main types the French may have been the earliest. Why is that? The German one was probably written during the lifetime of Conrad Paumann (d 1473), the supposed inventor of the system. Although Tinctoris had mentioned a six-course lute, these first tablatures, and indeed the very names by which the strings of the instrument were known, suggest five courses as still the most usual number at this time. Tinctoris also says (I believe it must be in the same treatise) that four-part playing was taking place. I don't suppose four parts are possible without the 6th course? Any ideas? Best greetings, Arne Keller. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
