[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)

[Tristan von Neumann]

Let's say:

Bass line and chords played by guitars or keyboards.

I hate to see Stage Pianos excluded from the continuo gig :)


On 12.09.19 23:28, Howard Posner wrote:

The rhythm guitar and bass

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams  
wrote:

   If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a
   non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm
   guitarist in a modern band?
   Leonard Williams

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)

[Howard Posner]

The rhythm guitar and bass

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams  
> wrote:
> 
>   If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a
>   non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm
>   guitarist in a modern band?
>   Leonard Williams
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jorg,
   I play continuo on theorbo and other plucked instruments and also
   employ the mandora/gallichon in nominal D tuning with a string length
   of 75cm (and also the large calchedon in nominal A tuning with sl 98cm)
   where the instrument is appropriate - ie mostly second to last quarter
   of the 18thC.
   There are quite a lot of songs and concerted instrumental works from
   the mid-18thC for the smaller instrument as obbligato with fully
   written out accompaniments and these provide good sources for the
   suitable style of continuo realisations on this instrument.  Of course,
   the repertoire where the smaller gallichon/mandora (ie D or later E
   nominal) is most appropriate is not really the baroque period but the
   pre-classical with its longer harmonic lines and where things like
   measured arpeggios etc are increasingly employed.  Indeed, much like
   some early five/six string/course guitar sources of the late 18th/early
   19th C (eg Porro, Scheidler, De Call, Molitor, et als).
   As you remark, the instrument can be quite loud and thus provides a
   good continuo instrument for this later period (especially for works
   from German-speaking lands - but not exclusively).
   Incidentally, the usual intervals are not the same as on the
   renaissance lute (with a third between the fourth and third course) but
   as on the guitar (with the third between the third and second course).
   regards
   Martyn

   On Thursday, 12 September 2019, 08:17:00 BST, Jörg Hilbert
wrote:
   Dear all,
   I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT
   theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite
   sonorous.
   Has anybody experiences with this?
   Thanks
   Jörg
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?

[David van Ooijen]

   I do on occasion. I have a huge 10-course in D 78cm or something
   similar). Sometimes I chicken out and play transposed parts. If the
   D-lute stint is a bit longer I bite the bullet and play at pitch. Not
   so difficult (but I play easy continuo on it: early Italian music), no
   complicated high baroque.

   David

   On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 09:16, Jörg Hilbert
   <[1]hilbert.jo...@t-online.de> wrote:

 Dear all,
 I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT
 theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite
 sonorous.
 Has anybody experiences with this?
 Thanks
 Jörg
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:hilbert.jo...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[Max Langer]

Otherwise music students is a fantastic page turning technology.

Max

Max Langer, PhD

20 rue Diderot
38000 Grenoble
France
+33 631 94 21 92


On 15 March 2017 at 17:53, guy_and_liz Smith <guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
> A  melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal 
> with a full score. Too many page turns.
>
> A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when 
> did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in 
> modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've 
> played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, 
> often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the 
> Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in 
> (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least 
> some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was 
> published as part music; continuo is just another part book.
>
> Guy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
> Of howard posner
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM
> To: Lute List
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
>
> It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo 
> part.  I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page 
> turns.
>
>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong <edward.y...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>>   score, assuming both have the same figures?
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[guy_and_liz Smith]

A  melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal with 
a full score. Too many page turns.

A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when 
did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in 
modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've 
played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, 
often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the 
Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in 
(relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least 
some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was 
published as part music; continuo is just another part book.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part.  
I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns.

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong <edward.y...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[David van Ooijen]

   When accompanying a soloist, I prefer to see his/part. Otherwise bass
   part is more convenient. But I can live with either score or part.
   Recits are the exception: I want to read these along.

   David

   On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 at 17:19, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
   wrote:

 It's always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the
 continuo part.   I've done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid
 inconvenient page turns.
 > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong
 <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >   Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
 >Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or
 full
 >score, assuming both have the same figures?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[howard posner]

It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part.  
I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns.

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong  
> wrote:
> 
>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[Miles Dempster]

Hello Edward,

There have been positive comments on this list about using a tablet and 
foot-operated page turner.
I’m thinking adopting this solution when the next iPad Pro is released, which I 
believe will be within a few weeks.


Miles




> On Mar 15, 2017, at 9:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong  
> wrote:
> 
>   Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?
>   I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but
>   have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with
>   playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part
>   to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a
>   page-turner?
>   Curious to hear your thoughts.
>   From sunny Singapore,
>   Edward C. Yong
>   
>   τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
>   Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
>   此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
>   This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Continuo duets for two continuo instruments?

[R. Mattes]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:53:54 +0300, wikla wrote
 Dear (continuo-)lutenists,
 
 there are (at least) two examples of duets for two continuo 
 instruments - only the numbered bass line written - but meant to be 
 played as otherwise all improvised duet. The one I remembered and 
 also found in the Net, is by
 G. Strozzi, see 
http://www.continuo.ca/files/Strozzi%20-%20Sonata%20di%20basso%20solo.pdf
 
 There is at least one other similiar case - got also it nearly 20 
 years ago from S. Stubbs (if memory serves...). And it also is in my 
 bookshelf, I know that, but I cannot find it... Anyone has any idea?

Hmm, I don't know about Continuo Duet - but there are the of course the 
partimento duets by Pasquini, maybe you think of these?
 
 Next month in a music course I might have possibility to play with a
 professional baroque harpist, and this kind of improvisation stuff 
 could be most enjoyable! And I've done these two in a course in 
 Bremen in the beginning on 90's...

I'll use the Pasquini ones in a course next weekend :-)

HTH RalfD
 

--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Roman Turovsky]

If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that 
there are no generally acceptable limits for

keyboard continuo practice.
RT

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience





  Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
  continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
  say, a Bach Mass setting.  In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
  suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
  keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
  practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
  that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
  any  audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
  parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
  mind.

   Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
  some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
  heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
  grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
  the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
  instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
  song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
  the amplification.

   This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
  defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
  popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
  thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
  sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
  intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
  it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time

  MH
  --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58

  --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
  
   I don't think really these people really make any attempt
   to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
   any relevant knowledge at all.
  
   Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
  
   Cynically
  
   Monica
  
  I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
  things and the artistic aspect.  Historically informed is not a very
  helpful critical term.  Deciding who is historically informed-er
  tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance.  I don't
  think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
  historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
  with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
  essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts.  After all,
  if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
  of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
  playing.
  Chris
  Christopher Wilke
  Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
  www.christopherwilke.com
  
   - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
  [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
  
  
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
   CD  by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
   ago.
   
   
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
   tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
   album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
   year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
   this album, Echo de Paris:
   
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
   
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
   and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
   very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
   pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
   Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
   Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent
   at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music  bursts
   forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
   
(i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these
   arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the
   first place?)
   
   
Stuart
   
   
   
 In the liner notes it
   mentions an
illustration which
   

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
   part) of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair
   I did put in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord
   continuo world...

   MH
   --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:

 From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher
 Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02

   If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize
   that
   there are no generally acceptable limits for
   keyboard continuo practice.
   RT
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Christopher Wilke [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
   
   
  Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say
   'great
  continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin
   in,
  say, a Bach Mass setting.  In fact, the evidence is not as scant as
   you
  suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
  keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of
   historical
  practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem
   is
  that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from
   what
  any  audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be
   a
  parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
  mind.
   
   Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world
   and
  some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
  heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a
   sort of
  grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than
   with
  the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
  instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
  song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible
   without
  the amplification.
   
   This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
  defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
   current
  popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
  thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to
   generate
  sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
  intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
  it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
   
  MH
  --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com
   wrote:
   
From: Christopher Wilke [5]chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh [6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
   
  --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
  
   I don't think really these people really make any attempt
   to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
   any relevant knowledge at all.
  
   Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
  
   Cynically
  
   Monica
  
  I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
  things and the artistic aspect.  Historically informed is not a
   very
  helpful critical term.  Deciding who is historically informed-er
  tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance.  I
   don't
  think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
  historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is
   accord
  with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
  essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts.  After
   all,
  if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any
   number
  of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
  playing.
  Chris
  Christopher Wilke
  Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
  www.christopherwilke.com
  
   - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
  [2][10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   Cc: Lutelist [3][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
  
  
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
   CD  by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
   ago.
   
   
 

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Roman Turovsky]

There seems to be no generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo 
practice included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as 
evidenced by its graduates.

RT

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Roman Turovsky 
r.turov...@verizon.net

Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience



Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most part) 
of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did put 
in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo 
world...


MH

--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:


From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher Wilke 
chriswi...@yahoo.com

Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02


If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience





Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.

Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.

This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time

MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 I don't think really these people really make any attempt
 to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
 any relevant knowledge at all.

 Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.

 Cynically

 Monica

I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com

 - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again


  On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
  On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
  I came across this
 CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
  Bon voyage some time
 ago.
 
 
  I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
 tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
 album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
 year with an opera singer) 

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here.  Compared to Echo de Paris or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini.  Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.

Eugene


 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
 Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
 To: Christopher Wilke
 Cc: Lutelist
 Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
 
 
 
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting.  In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any  audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
 
 Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
 
 This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
 
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
  To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
  mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
 
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 I don't think really these people really make any attempt
 to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
 any relevant knowledge at all.

 Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.

 Cynically

 Monica

I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect.  Historically informed is not a very
helpful critical term.  Deciding who is historically informed-er
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance.  I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts.  After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
playing.
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com

 - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again


  On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
  On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
  I came across this
 CD  by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
  Bon voyage some time
 ago.
 
 
  I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
 tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
 album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
 year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
 this album, Echo de Paris:
 
  [4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
 
  It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
 and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
 very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
 pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini 

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Monica Hall]

I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here.  Compared to Echo de Paris or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini.  Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.


Yes...What really bothers me is not the way in which they play the music - 
which in its way is enjoyable.   It is that they have deliberately put into 
circulation information about Foscarini and his music which is entirely 
false.   I think this should be a matter for concern.


On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just 
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and 
fiction.  Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem!


Monica




Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience



   Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
   continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
   say, a Bach Mass setting.  In fact, the evidence is not as scant as 
you

   suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
   keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
   practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
   that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
   any  audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
   parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
   mind.

Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
   some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
   heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort 
of

   grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
   the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
   instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
   song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
   the amplification.

This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
   defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to 
current

   popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
   thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
   sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
   intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
   it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time

   MH
   --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
 To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
 mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58

   --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
I don't think really these people really make any attempt
to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
any relevant knowledge at all.
   
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
   
Cynically
   
Monica
   
   I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
   things and the artistic aspect.  Historically informed is not a very
   helpful critical term.  Deciding who is historically informed-er
   tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance.  I don't
   think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
   historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
   with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
   essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts.  After all,
   if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
   of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
   playing.
   Chris
   Christopher Wilke
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
   [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
   
   
 On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
 On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
 I came across this
CD  by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
 Bon voyage some time
ago.


 I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
  

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[Sean Smith]

On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just  
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and  
fiction.  Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem! -- 
Monica




As a victim of unfortunate news concerning a concert mate  [Three  
fingers??!! That's horrible and must be soo painful!] I must agree.


Especially today.

Sean

ps, he's ok but I had already rewritten the concert program in my  
head ;^)




Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience



  Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say  
'great
  continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott  
Joplin in,
  say, a Bach Mass setting.  In fact, the evidence is not as scant  
as you

  suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
  keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of  
historical
  practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the  
problem is
  that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from  
what
  any  audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to  
be a

  parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
  mind.

   Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world  
and

  some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
  heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a  
sort of
  grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than  
with

  the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
  instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
  song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible  
without

  the amplification.

   This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
  defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to  
current

  popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
  thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to  
generate

  sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
  intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
  it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time

  MH
  --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58

  --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
  
   I don't think really these people really make any attempt
   to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
   any relevant knowledge at all.
  
   Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
  
   Cynically
  
   Monica
  
  I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
  things and the artistic aspect.  Historically informed is not a  
very

  helpful critical term.  Deciding who is historically informed-er
  tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance.  I  
don't

  think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
  historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is  
accord

  with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
  essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts.  After  
all,
  if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any  
number

  of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
  playing.
  Chris
  Christopher Wilke
  Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
  www.christopherwilke.com
  
   - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh
  [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   Cc: Lutelist [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
  
  
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this
   CD  by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
Bon voyage some time
   ago.
   
   
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
   tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
   album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
   year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
   this album, Echo de Paris:
   
[4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
   
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
   and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
   very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
   pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
   Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
   Foscarini you struggle to find anything 

[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience

[wikla]

Well, not only in keyboard continuo there shouldn't be no limits; also
plucked continuo is free - the only limit is that when it is good
(subjective!) it serves the the soloist/ensemble/orchestra/... And also
serving is subjective. Of course usually mastering the style and
conventions of the period help achieving the goal... But being only
pedant doesn't guarantee art...

All the best,

Arto


On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:27:03 -0400, Roman Turovsky
r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
 There seems to be no generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo 
 practice included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as 
 evidenced by its graduates.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Roman Turovsky 
 r.turov...@verizon.net
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
 
 
 
 Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part) 
 of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did
put 
 in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo 
 world...
 
 MH
 
 --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 
 From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Christopher Wilke 
 chriswi...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
 
 
 If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
 there are no generally acceptable limits for
 keyboard continuo practice.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
 
 


 Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
 continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
 say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
 suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
 keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
 practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
 that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
 any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
 parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
 mind.

 Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
 some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
 heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
 grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
 the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
 instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
 song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
 the amplification.

 This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
 defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
 popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
 thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
 sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
 intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
 it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time

 MH
 --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
 To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com, Monica Hall
 mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58

 --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
 
  I don't think really these people really make any attempt
  to play the music in a historically informed way..or have
  any relevant knowledge at all.
 
  Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
 
  Cynically
 
  Monica
 
 I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
 things and the artistic aspect. Historically informed is not a very
 helpful critical term. Deciding who is historically informed-er
 tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
 think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
 historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
 with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
 essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
 if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
 of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing great continuo
 playing.
 Chris
 Christopher Wilke
 Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
 www.christopherwilke.com
 
  - 

[LUTE] Re: continuo figures

[Luca Manassero]

   I guess everybody knows that, when Vivaldi was asked to add continuo
   figures to his work, he accepted, but added the comment per li
   coglioni, which is definitely not a nice way to define not
   experienced continuo players ;-)
   David Tayler on 05/09/10 21.11 wrote:

I have pondered this very question, including specifically whether
the 10s and so on are a way of indicating voices in single or
reentrant tuning. The 10s are often in the wrong voice for good counterpoint.
My feeling is as follows: 1. it is possible the the compound figures
may have a special meaning for lute, but hard to prove. There could
have been a style of descant accompaniment with a wider ranging right hand
2. The sharps, sharp 3's, etc are just sharps.
3. And, lastly, the figures are not the composer's intent. I truly
believe, based on supporting evidence, that house figures were
intended for amateur musicians who could not harmonize at sight.
At best, they are a snapshot of a possibility for a realization, not
standard continuo practice. In this regard, the figures are like
Alphabet notation--they simplify the possibilities. I don't use these
figures, except on a basic awareness level.
Unfigured bass is the standard for 17th century music.

I did once have someone ask me after a concert, facsimile in hand,
why I had changed a figure in Caccini--I changed a # to a 4-3--and
after I explained that the figures were not intended for experienced
continuo players, I got a very long, cold stare.

So be careful!
  :)
dt


At 03:25 AM 9/5/2010, you wrote:

I am working on some (father and daughters') Caccini songs.
Sometimes they use the figure #3 and sometimes just #.
In Le Nuove Musiche (1601/1602) it appears the rule is #3 if preceeded
by 4. To distinguish from 11 #10, presumably. And just # when it's a
chord that has to have a major third.
In Nuove Musiche e nuova maniera di scriverle (1614) I fail to see
consistency in this rule.
Daughter Francesca in her Libro Primo (1618) seems to be following the
rule I would tentatively distill from Le Nuove Musiche: 4 #3 to
prescribe melodic suspension/release, to distinguish from 11 #10 in
the other octave. And just # to mark a major third in the chord.

Any thoughts on this? I will check with Einstein and Freiberg in a
minute, but am hoping for more recent studies and players' points of
view.

David



--
***
David van Ooijen
[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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References

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   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[David Tayler]

The Novello is the Dart Edition, I belive, which is not too bad, but 
has way too many page turns! There is, to my knowledge, no suitable 
modern edition, but the Bartlett has at least most of the original marks.
And way less page turns.
I did find the missing chacony, which is a very funny story.

Another fun Dido tidbit is that the triplets are always performed at 
double speed, so that the opera is 2 beats shorter than composed.
dt

At 06:23 AM 10/26/2009, you wrote:
I'm using an edition by Novello.



  It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you
  will be performing.  There are a some editorial choices/additions
  that are made in Dido;


I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My
decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque
instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice
places to use the guitar (chorus and dances).

  indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with
  gittars, indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are
  not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years
  later,
  and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or
  some other way).  So proceed with caution if you're going to use
  some
  other version.

That's what I am about to do...

  Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using
  the lower parts to figure the bass).

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References

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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[David van Ooijen]

Dear Bruno

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com wrote:
   guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received a full
   score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this format. Is
   there a version for bass and the top line?

There's a King's Music bc part, it's easy to play from. But don't
throw away your score yet, as you'll need it to figure the part. It
has a few figures, but far from all.

David

PS: On the Soud Clips page of my web site you can listen to what I did
for one of the guitar dances.

-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[David Tayler]

Get the Bartlett Edition..
Although it must be said that continuo is a cut and paste profession.

dt

At 09:02 PM 10/25/2009, you wrote:
A quesion for continuo experts: I am about to play continuo (5 course
guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received a full
score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this format. Is
there a version for bass and the top line? That would save paper and
make everything much easier (no page turns...).



Regards.

--


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Bruno Correia]

   Ah! That's what I thought...



   Thanks.

   2009/10/26 David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net

 Get the Bartlett Edition..
 Although it must be said that continuo is a cut and paste
 profession.
 dt
 At 09:02 PM 10/25/2009, you wrote:
 A quesion for continuo experts: I am about to play continuo (5
 course
 guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received
 a full
 score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this
 format. Is
 there a version for bass and the top line? That would save
 paper and
 make everything much easier (no page turns...).
 
 
 
 Regards.
 
 --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
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   --

References

   1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Bruno Correia]

   I'm using an edition by Novello.



 It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you
 will be performing.  There are a some editorial choices/additions
 that are made in Dido;


   I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My
   decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque
   instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice
   places to use the guitar (chorus and dances).

 indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with
 gittars, indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are
 not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years
 later,
 and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or
 some other way).  So proceed with caution if you're going to use
 some
 other version.

   That's what I am about to do...

 Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using
 the lower parts to figure the bass).

   --
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   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Jeff]

Re: getting your hands on the Bartlett edition--I had heard unhappy rumors 
about King's Music and recently came across this article. Looks like the 
music may still be available, but King's Music is no more. Very unfortunate.


http://indianapublicmedia.org/harmonia/death-early-music-publishing-company/

Best to all,
jeff
- Original Message - 
From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com

To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:23 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo



  I'm using an edition by Novello.



It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you
will be performing.  There are a some editorial choices/additions
that are made in Dido;


  I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My
  decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque
  instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice
  places to use the guitar (chorus and dances).

indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with
gittars, indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are
not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years
later,
and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or
some other way).  So proceed with caution if you're going to use
some
other version.

  That's what I am about to do...

Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using
the lower parts to figure the bass).

  --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[howard posner]

On Oct 25, 2009, at 9:02 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:

 Unfortunately I received a full
score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this
 format. Is
there a version for bass and the top line? That would save paper
 and
make everything much easier (no page turns...).

It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you
will be performing.  There are a some editorial choices/additions
that are made in Dido; indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with
gittars, indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are
not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years later,
and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or
some other way).  So proceed with caution if you're going to use some
other version.

Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using
the lower parts to figure the bass).
--

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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Tayler]

We know that continuo players often played with the treble players 
before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in 
the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two that 
jump out are first that
these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the 
chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be 
doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although 
generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard.
dt



At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
  What's up guys,
 
  Continuo question:  how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where
  the voices are played one-on-a-part?  My problem is I don't know what
  to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing.
  Any suggestions?

Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with
fugues is

a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry
and
b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Mathias Rösel]

David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 We know that continuo players often played with the treble players 
 before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in 
 the colla parte parts.

How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means
colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly
continuo, I should say.

David, would you mind to give one or two examples, btw?

Mathias

 The figures show many things, but the two that 
 jump out are first that
 these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the 
 chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be 
 doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although 
 generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard.
 dt
 
 
 
 At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
 David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
   What's up guys,
  
   Continuo question:  how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where
   the voices are played one-on-a-part?  My problem is I don't know what
   to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing.
   Any suggestions?
 
 Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with
 fugues is
 
 a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry
 and
 b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo.
 
 Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David van Ooijen]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Mathias Rösel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 We know that continuo players often played with the treble players
 before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in
 the colla parte parts.

 How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means
 colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly
 continuo, I should say.

The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what
the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you
like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of
the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too
much in openings of fugues, is my motto.

David
-- 
***
David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] scripsit
The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing
   what
the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you
like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of
the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too
much in openings of fugues, is my motto.

   Should be everyone's ^_^

   Can't find chapter and verse right now, but contemporary sources (most
   probably tutors on continuo) had it that continuo in the sense of
   David's 'play what you like within these figures' was not supposed to
   start before the cue of the 3rd part.

   Mathias

References

   1. 3Dmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Arthur Ness]

You seem to be describing a basso seguente.
=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Stravinsky's
Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the 
Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc

Soustrot, conductor.

To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

My Web Page:  Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
   Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
===

- Original Message - 
From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:10 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question



We know that continuo players often played with the treble players
before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in
the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two 
that

jump out are first that
these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that 
the

chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be
doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although
generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard.
dt



At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:

David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 What's up guys,

 Continuo question:  how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, 
 where
 the voices are played one-on-a-part?  My problem is I don't know 
 what

 to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing.
 Any suggestions?

Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo 
with

fugues is

a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry
and
b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo.

Mathias



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Tayler]

There are many examples of figures which do not 
double any of the voices. This means that they 
were either played or ignored, by they are not kibitzing figures.
These additional figures also fall into several 
categories. Some of these imply, by there shape 
and structure, additional melodic lines. Others, 
which are more complex, reveal fully structured chordal progressions.
Since these figures do not double the other 
parts--and, if you think about it, how could they 
in a fugal allegro where only one part is playing 
in the beginning--I cannot think of a way NOT to 
play them that would justify their inclusion.
In my own group, we normally play these pieces on 
the organ, the figures appear therefore in the 
organ. However, I have on occasion played them on 
the archlute. You can certainly argue that many 
of these high figures are not lutelike, but they 
exist and should be played--or ignored, that is 
an aesthetic choice, oi course. Sometimes we 
say--I know these upper parts are figured with 
unique harmonies, but I don't like the sound.
Example--I just now played a Legrenzi piece with 
undoubled figures, Sonata quarta, m77. Hey, there 
is a figure for the the seguente part doubling 
the viola. However, there are thousands of 
examples, from all periods, all parts. Another 
famous naked figure--this time over the 
bass--is from the beginning of the second 
movement of the opening of Corelli's Christmas 
concerto. When we see all of these types of 
figures in the bass part--where they seem 
normal--a brief extra part, so to speak, we then 
see them in the Solo cello parts, then in the 
basso seguente parts for viola, then the basso 
seguente for second and first violins. These 
figures paint a complete and compelling picture 
of harmonization practices of the time, replete 
with sevenths. The examples are far too numerous 
and complete to ignore, and they appear in music from all countries as well.


Similarly, on a smaller scale, are the numerous 
and highly structured examples of figured rests.

dt


At 03:37 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Mathias Rösel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 We know that continuo players often played with the treble players
 before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in
 the colla parte parts.

 How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means
 colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly
 continuo, I should say.

The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what
the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you
like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of
the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too
much in openings of fugues, is my motto.

David
--
***
David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Tayler]

   Perhaps that is a better term, but some basso sequente parts do not
   double the treble.
   In addition, colla parte is a style of continuo playing, whereas some
   seguente parts can also be simply composite bass parts. The famous
   resolution of Palestrina's works by organ would fall more into a colla
   parte style, or even short score, but for renaissance music short
   score is not as persuasive as full parts, whereas in Handel it is
   necessary.
   If there is a technical term for figured upper parts, that would be
   great, of course, perhaps basso seguente is a better fit, however those
   really high parts would not be practical on a bass instrument (not so
   high parts could be doubled on a five string cello, but the sound is
   not always persuasive). Therfore they are not basso. And, since these
   cases explicitly introduce new material, they are not exactly
   seguente. (see below on barring as an alternate meaning for
   seguente) By that definition, one could refer to a Continuo part
   itself as basso seguente, especially for bass sonatas. Some scholars
   posit that there is no real difference historically for the early 17th
   century (CF the Grove Article, by no means complete), but that is not
   how we use the terms now. Later music, such as Handel, is of course
   different.
   However, we use the term slightly differently than Banchieri, and even
   Banchieri uses different terms, such as barittono. According to the
   unbarred definition of basso seguente, much later music would not be
   so defined, but the term is historically specific to older music, as
   opposed to basetto. The barring question may of course refer obliquely
   to the absence of rests, and my reading of the Cartela rests on my
   limited grasp of idiomatic Italian.
   The fundamental question remains, however, as to what to do with the
   figures, since they are not always doubled by parts.
   dt
   At 06:11 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote:

 You seem to be describing a basso seguente.
 =AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
 This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
 Stravinsky's
 Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the
 Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc
 Soustrot, conductor.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Ron Andrico]

   To all:

   We just want to let everyone know that our Christmas CD is now
   available.  It can be found on Amazon (where they are still showing it
   out of stock), or CD Baby [1]http://cdbaby.com/cd/mignarda4.  Of
   course, it's also available from us [2]http://www.mignarda.com/cds/

   Best wishes,
   Ron  Donna

   [3]www.mignarda.com
 __

   You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
   [4]See how --

References

   1. http://cdbaby.com/cd/mignarda4
   2. http://www.mignarda.com/cds/
   3. http://www.mignarda.com/
   4. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Rastall]

David, Matthias, Roman, thanks for your input on my continuo question.

Best,

Davidr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Mathias Rösel]

David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 What's up guys,
 
 Continuo question:  how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where
 the voices are played one-on-a-part?  My problem is I don't know what
 to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing.
 Any suggestions?

Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with
fugues is

a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry
and
b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo.

Mathias



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Tayler]

There is no easy answer. You can play colla parte, or course, the 
ultimate challenge for any lute music, or double the lower voices, or 
you can just figure it. If it is a later Baroque piece, there will 
many interlocking 7ths and 9ths, and in these cases I often will play 
the sevenths so that they resolve, rightly or wrongly, on the next 
big beat chord. (as in tea for two). That avoids constantly 
doubling the resolution, which often does not sound good or creates 
ensemble  or dynamic issues. I also use the big archlute for these 
types of pieces, to keep the sevenths and ninths high in the stack 
and to avoid octave resolutions--a big problem IMHO on many 
recordings with theorbo continuo, where the extra voice doubles the 
leading tone or the 7th in the wrong octave. 9ths are a bit less 
fussy, they can sound OK as a 2nd, and are often figured as a 2.
dt



At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
  What's up guys,
 
  Continuo question:  how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where
  the voices are played one-on-a-part?  My problem is I don't know what
  to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing.
  Any suggestions?

Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with
fugues is

a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry
and
b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo.

Mathias



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[howard posner]

On Apr 17, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:


Re the German Lute Society's Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique und  
Zugleich der Composition, Rob wrote:

 Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English?

It comes with an English booklet.  Here are some excerpts of a review  
I wrote in the LSA Quarterly a while ago:

The manuscript, housed in recent years in the Prague University  
Library and the Lobkovicz family library in Rudnice, has been  
considered a significant source of information about playing continuo  
on the d-minor-tuned baroque lute.  But it's at once both more and  
less than that.  For modern readers, it's a different way of looking  
at music.  Most of us learn continuo, if at all, as a sort of  
addendum to technique and theory, part of our understanding of how  
the key system works.  The Fundamenta shows a musical culture in  
which continuo was an organic, integral part, even though musicians  
still thought modally.
*   *   *
The book begins with the very basics -- the lute's strings, the notes  
of the scale -- and proceeds into harmony, a bit of counterpoint, and  
a few elements of composition.  Along the way it explains and gives  
examples of harmonic progressions and continuo notation, including  
such fine points as how to elaborate the treble line to avoid (or  
disguise) parallel fifths and octaves.  It explains preparation and  
resolution of dissonances, and how specific chords come about and  
where they lead.  It gives capsule descriptions of musical forms  
(overture, slow and quick allemandes, courante, air, bourree,  
rigaudon, gavotte, minuet, sarabande, rondeau, canarie, passepied,  
gigue, march) and then offers preludes to demonstrate how to play in  
the usable keys.  It ends, a bit anticlimactically, with  
illustrations of the eight clefs a musician was likely to encounter.

All musical examples are given in on two parallel staves, one in  
continuo notation (bass clef with figures) and the other in  
tablature.  The result is a good look at what continuo notation meant  
to the author, and it's often surprising.  The book is downright  
capricious about the octave in which the bass part sounds.  Where the  
continuo part goes from second-space C to second-line B and back, the  
tablature part takes the C's down an octave on the lowest (11th)  
course, so the line jumps a ninth twice instead of going up and down  
a semitone.  This, like many such instances, maximizes use of open  
strings, but elsewhere the line is just as capriciously taken up an  
octave.  There is a similarly free attitude about whether to play  
reiterated bass notes.

A major surprise is the variety and complexity of the realized  
parts.  Above the continuo line, the tablature shows arpeggiations,  
melodic elaborations, and moments of free fantasy.  There is little  
explanation in the text of what this all means.  The author may have  
been offering a manual for improvisation, giving the continuo line as  
a harmonic framework.  Or he may have been suggesting a free and  
creative approach to playing continuo.

*   *   *
The text is spare, even cryptic, as if the author were being charged  
by the word.  If I understand the editors correctly, the original is  
mostly in Latin, with a few Germanisms and an occasional German  
passage.  The main volume has the original text and a parallel column  
with Mathias R=F6sel's German translation and editorial notes.  An  
English translation of the Latin (also by R=F6sel) is in a separate  
booklet, which has marginal references to the page in the main volume  
but no tablature or staff illustrations, so the English reader must  
toggle back and forth between books.  The editors try to make the  
task easier with marginal notes keying the English text to two sets  
of page numbers: those of the main volume and those of the original  
manuscript folios (which are printed in the main volume's text).   
This feature would be more of a convenience if the cross-references  
were always correct, which they aren't.  The English version lacks,  
for the most part, the German version's explanatory notes.  It  
suffers from occasional awkwardness of the sort that could have been  
avoided by having a native English speaker read it before publication  
(Some of the abbreviations could not be dissolved because of bad  
legibility.  After all these rules have been aforesaid now follows  
their execution.).  Other passages can be sticky because the  
linguistic concepts are strange (concert becomes pleasant according  
to fantasy), and R=F6sel apparently wants to avoid imposing his own  
views on the text.  The bottom line is that this is a German book,  
not an English one, and it shows.



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[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[Mathias Rösel]

rodrigo demetrio [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Dear lute players,
 I am new in this forum.
 I would like to have information about lute continuo playing in Germany at
 the end of XVII century. Many sources of solo lute music are in d tuning but
 I don't find continuo sources which speak about the appropriated instruments
 and tunings used at that time.
 Can anybody help me?
 Many thanks!
 Rodrigo

Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from
Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in
D minor tuning.
-- 
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[Rob MacKillop]

Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English?

Rob


On 17/04/2008, Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from
 Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in
 D minor tuning.
 --
 Mathias



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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[Mathias Rösel]

Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English?
 
 Rob

Rainer Luckhardt of Seicento music and I took care that this was done
with the 1st edition. The English translation comes as an extra
booklet.

Mathias



  Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from
  Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in
  D minor tuning.
  --
  Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[thomas schall]

It already is - teh text comes with english translation.

Thomas
- Original Message - 
From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: rodrigo demetrio [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:05 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany



Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English?

Rob


On 17/04/2008, Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from
Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in
D minor tuning.
--
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[Daniel Winheld]

Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of 
the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the 
singers...

My experience has been that when playing with someone who has the 
lead role and has to breathe, you are most definitely NOT the boss- 
merely an at-will employee who can and will be terminated any time. 
Even with the Soprano I Live With, and +30 years-old marriage 
contract. The rhythm and pulse thing is sometimes a defense, however.



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[Guy Smith]

Furthermore, the text often dictates much of what's going on musically
(which notes should be stressed, etc.). We do a lot of Italian songs, and
the singers our continuo band works with know a lot more about Italian
(pronunciation and meaning) than most of the instrumentalists, certainly
much more than I (a lot of what little I know I've picked up from the
singers).

Guy

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Winheld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:37 AM
To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of 
the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the 
singers...

My experience has been that when playing with someone who has the 
lead role and has to breathe, you are most definitely NOT the boss- 
merely an at-will employee who can and will be terminated any time. 
Even with the Soprano I Live With, and +30 years-old marriage 
contract. The rhythm and pulse thing is sometimes a defense, however.



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[David Rastall]

On Dec 18, 2007, at 3:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 ...Start playing
 continuo! It is hard, really hard, in the beginning, but it is  
 worth of
 all the troubles!

I'll take your word for it that it's worth it in the end, Arto.  ;-)

I've been trying to teach myself continuo for most of this year, and  
I'm having a terrible time with it:  it seems that the more I learn,  
the less I know!

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[wikla]

On 12/18/2007, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I've been trying to teach myself continuo for most of this year, and
 I'm having a terrible time with it:  it seems that the more I learn,
 the less I know!

Don't worry! Just play 3rds when you don't know what to do. And take
care to know, when there is a 4-3. There play the 3rd only after
whatsoever confusion and dissonance... ;-)

Arto

PS It is utterly important that you have practice! Even the recorder
players will do... ;.)  Singers are the best, because normally they
don't  know anything of the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the
boss with the singers... And take care you know those things then... :-)



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[wikla]

  it seems that the more I learn,  the less I know!

By the way, just that seems to be the proper (and VERY classical) way of
learning! (Compare for ex. what Blaise Pascal wrote about knowledge.)

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[David Tayler]

On the issue of parallels in continuo playing, I think it is a good 
thing that there is a lot of diversity in continuo realization, and a 
lot of choices.

As far as practical matters, because at a certain point one has to 
play the stuff, the big issue for me is timing--in a mixed continuo 
group the lute is alas usually the last one to the bar (and the first 
to the pub, of course). One can hear this on many recordings quite 
clearly. So in the end, in the system that I teach, I simplify some 
of the rules to allow for quicker and smoother shifts. Everyone has 
to learn all the figures, and for that you need only play the Matthew 
passion, one Handel OPera and one Rameau opera.
Unfigured bass is of course another story.

My system is designed with a minimum of parallels, and allows the 
player to learn a more complicated system with very few parallels 
after the timing has been resolved.
But in the beginning, it is not parallel free.
After testing out many solutions, I find that there are certain 
voicings that work better and quicker, and have fewer parallels. 
Obviously, if you use moveable chords, you will have parallels.

Next I would say that if you can play without parallels, you then 
have the choice. Also, sometimes a bad doubling is worse than a bad parallel.

 From a professional point of view, some of the orchestras that I 
play with would definitely not rehire a player who played parallels, 
so that is a consideration as well.
You would not get a note in the mail :)
Other orchestras would neither know nor care.

Listening to recordings, the thing that bugs me more than the 
parallels is the timing, and that frequently the lute and the 
harpsichord (or harp, organ, etc.) play different chords, although 
this can be very nice in the case of 5/3 plus 6/3 =6/5/3.

I think we are fortunate that although there are some prescriptive 
systems touted about, at this time we can still play pretty much what we want.

dt




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Rob]

Sounds fine to me. 

Regarding timing, lute and harpsichord players often adjust the immediacy of
their plucking action by delaying the beat slightly. I've had to do this
deliberately on many occasions. For instance, with strings - they start
bowing, THEN the note appears. When we pluck, it jumps out immediately. The
consequence is that we sound early compared to everyone else. I'm not sure
if this is what you are referring to, David, when you talk about lute
players being the last to the bar - or are you saying we are still trying to
figure out the figures? That happens too ;-)

Rob MacKillop

www.rmguitar.info
 




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[ariel]

Gracias Alfonso,

I'm afraid you've got me wrong here.
I'm not interested in learning positions only, as I haven't done that either 
playing XVI th century music.
I was wondering if some fellow player has done a systematic work writing 
down things in a practical way.
As you may know, jazz players do take care of voice leading too, in a 
different way. It is not about playing a chord here or there according to 
their will. In that respect there're a few common elements.

As you may have read, I'm only interested in a certain repertoire, and I do 
not expect to become a continuo player in the next future.
I'm involved with other repertoires, but I thought it would be good to get 
familiar with this sort of things too.
I'm familiar with g' tunning, know where the notes are, know how things 
occur in counterpoint terms, so theorbo or guitar I'm afraid I'll keep them 
aside.

In any case, thanks for your comments. I'll see if I get along with it.

Salud,

Ariel.



 Dear Ariel,

 I think that you starting up from a wrong concept. Playing continuo  is 
 not about learning positions for chords but reading a bass and  adding the 
 right harmonies to it as a result of counterpoint and  correct voice 
 leading. If you think in chords positions like jazz  players do,  you 
 are going to create poor voice-leading and many  parallel harmonies. You 
 will have to be able to develop a very good  sense of harmony for each 
 time and style. Learn early Baroque harmony  and counterpoint to start 
 with (very much different than the  standard xviii century harmony we 
 learn in the conservatory) and  then apply this knowledge to find the 
 right connexions of chords  indicated by the bass (and cyphers when 
 present). That is the way to  go. With time it will come automatically. 
 Playing continuo on the  lute, archlute or theorbo is a very different 
 matter as playing  chords in baroque guitar style.
 I wish you lots of success in your new endeavor,
 Many greetings,

 Alfonso

 



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[LGS-Europe]

But be forwarned: the theorbo examples are transcirbed without taking a
proper re-entrant tuning into consideration ...

David


- Original Message - 
From: ariel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo


 Excellent, David, thanks!

 - Original Message - 
 From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ariel
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 3:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo


 As you may have read, I'm only interested in a certain repertoire, and I
 do

 There's a German edition with all early 17th century sources of continuo
 nicely listed and analysed. Very thorough, one volume  'Traktate und
 Vorworte' and a second volume 'Notenbeispiele'. Lute sources are
 included. german required, but perhaps what you're looking for:

 Irmtraut Freiberg
 Der Frühe Italienische Generalbass dargestellt anhand der Quellen von
 1595 bis 1655'
 Olms 2004
 www.olms.de

 It wasn't all that expensive, although I conveniently forgot what I paid
 for it exactly, but in any case it is the kind of book a good library
 should have or can order for you.

 David


 
 David van Ooijen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 








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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Alfonso Marin]

Dear Ariel,

I think that you starting up from a wrong concept. Playing continuo  
is not about learning positions for chords but reading a bass and  
adding the right harmonies to it as a result of counterpoint and  
correct voice leading. If you think in chords positions like jazz  
players do,  you are going to create poor voice-leading and many  
parallel harmonies. You will have to be able to develop a very good  
sense of harmony for each time and style. Learn early Baroque harmony  
and counterpoint to start with (very much different than the  
standard xviii century harmony we learn in the conservatory) and  
then apply this knowledge to find the right connexions of chords  
indicated by the bass (and cyphers when present). That is the way to  
go. With time it will come automatically. Playing continuo on the  
lute, archlute or theorbo is a very different matter as playing  
chords in baroque guitar style.
I wish you lots of success in your new endeavor,
Many greetings,

Alfonso



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo

[Rob]

Hi Ariel, and welcome to the 17th century...

Nigel North's book on continuo instruments is worth tracking down. There are
second-hand copies available from here:
http://www.amazon.com/Continuo-Playing-Archlute-Theorbo-Music/dp/0253314151/
ref=sr_1_1/002-5357019-7358431?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1185485761sr=8-1

It has chapters on theory, practice, organology, and lots of exercises and
examples for various instruments. It is not perfect, but is still a good
book to read and work through.

Although primarily written for the theorbo, the following book is very
interesting:
http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/product_info.php?cPath=3_35products_id=4
75 - Cadenze e passage diversi intavolati per Tiorba, dal manoscritto
estense G239. It is very like a jazz tutor in that it shows various ways of
moving from, for example, a G Major chord to a C Major chord, or a ii/V/I
sequence. The theorbo tablature has been transcribed into Grand Staff
(treble and bass) so it is possible to utilize these passages on any
instrument. This is a great way to learn stylistic passages.

Again from Ut Orpheus, but of use only to theorbo players is 'A Tutor For
The Theorbo' by Francesca Torelli. Italian or English texts available. I
find it a frustrating book, with some questionable statements, but some
useful stuff too. There is not much in this area, so it is worth reading as
much as you can.

Ariel, I know you are a first-rate musician, so I am confidant that the best
thing you could do is just get stuck in. Use your ears and brain, start
simple and build up complexity as you grow in confidence. You will have no
problem at all. 

Rob MacKillop

www.rmguitar.info
 
 
-Original Message-
From: ariel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 July 2007 19:32
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo

Dear friends,


I've recently become interested in early seventeenth century continuo 
playing.
I don't have professional ambitions with the subject, but I'd like to give 
it a serious try this summer.

I'm starting to collect some published material, and would like to know if 
there's any book which is a must having.

Found some really useful stuff on the web, and would like to know if there's

anyone who has done (or knows about)  a sort of a chord chart for g' tunning

(for a ten course or an archlute, for instances), which takes care of proper

voice leading, as you can see in many jazz guitar methods, to give an 
example.


I will really appreciate any advice from players of all levels here!

Thanks in advance,

Ariel. 



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Rastall]

Howard and Mathias:  many thanks for your input on my continuo  
question(s).  Much appreciated.

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Mathias Rösel]

  if the 7th or 9th is being
  supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should
  *not* be playing it?

I for one leave them out in that case. My rule is: Play it the easiest
possible way. If the upper voice has it, why should I double it?

 Surely the mere presence of 
 a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in 
 the continuo.  You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. 

In certain cases, I do avoid major thirds for that very reason. With
suspensions in particular. Sounds better IMHO when the soloist resolves.
On the other hand, if the accompanied voice does not provide thirds
figured in the bass line, continuo will make sure to supply them.

 fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and 
 ninths

Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine
chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or
5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz.
-- 
Best,

Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[David Rastall]

On Oct 29, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Howard Posner wrote:

 Under the bass notes are lots of indications for
 dominant 7th and 9th chords

 probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky...

Minor seventh chords?  I thought they would have been rarely used  
back then.  I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should  
take a major third.

 I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer,
 original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful.

So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could  
have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or  
maybe even the last person to have used that sheet music?

I have one more question:  where do I have to go to find editions of  
sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not  
some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part?

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Howard Posner]

On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 06:43 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall 
wrote:

 Minor seventh chords?- I thought they would have been rarely used back 
 then.- I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a 
 major third.

A dominant seventh is, strictly speaking, a seventh chord on the 
dominant.  Excuse the lecture if you already know about this, but there 
is a set of defaults known as the rule of the octave,  which says 
that in the absence of figures you play a root position chord on the 
all the diatonic notes of the scale except the third and seventh (some 
sources also include the sixth) which take a first inversion (i.e. the 
figure 6), and all raised tones also take a 6.  So in C major, D, will 
be minor, and so will E and A if they are root position and not 6 
chords (i.e. e minor and a minor and not C major and F major), which 
will be the case if they have a seven under them.  So in this passage 
from a Telemann recorder sonata in C:

E A D G C
7 7 7 7

You get four sevenths in a row, and three of them are minor sevenths.  
There are similar passages in Corelli, I'm sure.

 So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could 
 have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe 
 even the last person to have used that sheet music?

All are possible, and you probably listed them in decreasing order of 
probability.  And it can get a lot more complicated than that.
If you're lucky, the modern editor will tell you all about it.  For 
your immediate purposes, it's not critical; if you're learning how to 
play a 7-6 suspension, it doesn't really matter who wrote it.

 --I have one more question:--where do I have to go to find editions of 
 sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not 
 some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part?

Why not start here:

http://icking-music-archive.org

There's probably lots of good stuff in Gordon Callon's online archive, 
for which I don't seem to have the URL.

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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Howard Posner]

On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 11:07 America/Los_Angeles, Mathias Rösel 
wrote:


 fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and
 ninths

 Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine
 chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or
 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz.

We were talking about what to do when those notes are in the melody 
parts.




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[cweaver100]

The figures are not editorial. If you look at the facsimiles of Corelli's
published opuses (opera?) you'll see that they're all heavily figured.

You are not generally required to play ALL the figures, they're just to let
you what's happening above. Of course it usually sounds great in Corelli to
grab all the suspensions you can, but it works just as well to have the
other parts clash against you.

One caveat: there are places where a dissonance is set up in the upper
voice and not resolved. In this case it's usually good to double the
dissonance and resolve it properly. This almost never happens in Corelli,
though, as his voice leading is superb.

One last thing: they're not really ninth chords like Chuck Berry, in that
they don't have a seventh in them and they don't have dominant function.
They're just triads in which the octave of the bass is delayed. That's why
it's okay to leave it out. On the other hand, since 7 often (Not always)
resolves to 6, in this case you really shouldn't play a triad as it never
sounds good. If you can't do the 7-6, just play a third above the base.

CW



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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question

[Howard Posner]

David Rastall wrote:

 My attempts to teach myself continuo continue...

 I'm looking at a sonata by Corelli:  two instrumental parts plus
 basso continuo.  Under the bass notes are lots of indications for
 dominant 7th and 9th chords

probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky...

 , at places where the 7ths and 9ths appear
 in the instrumental parts.  That's no problem.  I can find the
 harmonies okay, but my question is:  if the 7th or 9th is being
 supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should
 *not* be playing it?

I think the definitive answer is maybe.  Surely the mere presence of 
a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in 
the continuo.  You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason.  On 
the other hand, I don't think a figure that doubles a melody note makes 
the note required in the continuo.  It's a matter of style, or, in your 
case, just what sort of lesson you want to give yourself that day.

  I'm
 thinking that perhaps those 7's and 9's under the bass are
 editorial.  Maybe the editor worked backwards:  starting with the
 upper parts, and figuring the bassline accordingly.  Or did Corelli
 really want all those 7ths and 9ths doubled in the continuo part?

Unless you answer your first question with a hard and fast rule one way 
or the other, the completeness of the figures doesn't settle the 
question -- fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and 
ninths, and more figures don't necessarily mean you have to play them.  
For what it's worth, Corelli's trio sonatas acquired more figures as 
the years went on.  In Chrysander's preface to his edition (now 
available in a Dover reprint) he notes that the later Dutch and English 
editions had more figures than the earlier Italian editions.

I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, 
original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful.  In 
Couperin's publications, the figures amount to a sort of short score; 
you can just about create the upper lines from the figures.  It's 
probably best to resist the temptation.



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[LUTE] Re: continuo with baroque lute

[Mathias Rösel]

Charles Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Tree Editions have just published Technique-building studies for baroque
 lutenists by Wlfred Foxe that contains both scales and cadences in common 
 keys
 together with other exercises. It may be worth looking at Giesbert as well.

yes, Giesbert is a good hint, indeed, but solely for chord shapes, not
for continuo playing.

Furthermore, there are

Fundamenta der Lautenmusique, which is a contemporaneous tutor for
continuo playing on an 11c lute. Available from
www.lautengesellschaft.de (click on Publikationen).

Nigel North's fab book on Continuo Playing, which has some lines about
on playing continuo on the baroque lute, too.
-- 
All the best,

Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Daniel F Heiman]

For some of the early continuo treatises (*not* lute specific) with
parallel translations into several modern European languages, see here:

http://www.bassus-generalis.org/

Daniel Heiman

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:01:41 +0200 LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  but an excellent book on the subject is Continuo Playing According 
 to 
  Handel.
  This is available in the Oxford Early Music Series with a running 
 
  commentary
  by David Ledbetter. A chance to learn continuo playing from a 
 master.
 
 Or see Bach's 'General bass regeln'. facsimile and English 
 translation. 
 Published in the same series. SImilar content.
 
 C.P.E. Bach's 'Versuch' might be a little late, but is excellent, of 
 course.
 
 Olms in Germany recently published a two part book with all (?) 
 Italian 
 1595-1655 continuo sources translated and supplied with examples. 
 But the 
 writer (Irmtraut Freiberg) didn't understand theorbo-tuning. Silly. 
 Good 
 thing Kapsberger is included, though.
 
 David 
 
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[LGS-Europe]

 but an excellent book on the subject is Continuo Playing According to 
 Handel.
 This is available in the Oxford Early Music Series with a running 
 commentary
 by David Ledbetter. A chance to learn continuo playing from a master.

Or see Bach's 'General bass regeln'. facsimile and English translation. 
Published in the same series. SImilar content.

C.P.E. Bach's 'Versuch' might be a little late, but is excellent, of course.

Olms in Germany recently published a two part book with all (?) Italian 
1595-1655 continuo sources translated and supplied with examples. But the 
writer (Irmtraut Freiberg) didn't understand theorbo-tuning. Silly. Good 
thing Kapsberger is included, though.

David 




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Benjamin Stehr]

Hi Dennis,

I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be
found?

You can also order it directly from Indiana University Press as print on
demand:
http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-253-31415-1.shtml

Or, if a few weeks are enough for you to work through the book just ask
a local library to get it for you. The ISBN is 0-253-31415-1

Benjamin








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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Leonard Williams]

You may also try ABE Books, an excellent source of new and (more
often) used books.  They are at abebooks.com.   You can search by title,
author, keyword.

Leonard Williams

On 10/10/05 3:59 AM, Benjamin Stehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Hi Dennis,
 
 I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be
 found?
 
 You can also order it directly from Indiana University Press as print on
 demand:
 http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-253-31415-1.shtml
 
 Or, if a few weeks are enough for you to work through the book just ask
 a local library to get it for you. The ISBN is 0-253-31415-1
 
 Benjamin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Taco Walstra]

On Saturday 08 October 2005 12:39, you wrote:

As said before in the 'new boy's' thread the book by Nigel North is the best 
starting book. It gives excellent information with some worked out examples 
in tablature. In my opinion the theoretical chapter on music theory is a bit 
short, when starting to figure your own unfigured bass part; it's more an 
outline for people who already know everything about harmonics, 6, 6/4 
inversions etc. etc. but this can also be found in other books. 

The french lute society has also some booklet on continuo, but of course in 
french and not known to me. 

A very good book is Traité d'accompagnement pour le théorbe et le clavessin 
(Paris, 1690) by Denis Delair, available in facsimile by Minkoff. The English 
translation is unfortunately not anymore available, but can be found in some 
university libraries.

Complicated but still interesting is 
Arnold, The art of accompaniment from a thorough bass as practised in the 17th 
and 18th centuries (Dover publications, 2 paperbacks). 

Fleury - Methode pour apprendre facilement a toucher le theorbe sur la 
basse-continue, 1660. Minkoff facsimile. Lots of mistakes, generally not 
recommended, only historically interesting.

Agazzari - del sonare sopra 'l basso con tutti li stromenti e dell' uso loro 
nel conserto, Sienna 1607. Very interesting essay. Translation can be found 
in Arnold but also on internet. It's more for historical background because 
of it's early date, not for learning continuo. 

The 'English songs 1625-1660', Musica Brittanica is a good starter, because 
the bass part is worked out in staff, easy songs which fit very good on 
theorbo.
Taco
 Hi folks,

 Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo?

 Thanks,

 Dennis




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Eric Hansen]

Very good recommendations. Castaldi's _Cappricci a due stromenti cioe tiorba e 
tiorbino e per sonar solo varie sorti di balli fantasticarie_ is also 
instructive for the songs in it, set for solo voice. The accompaniment is a 
bass line, beneath which is a realization in tablature for theorbo. The 
tablature gives some idea of style as well as harmonic realization. The book is 
a Minkoff Reprint (1981), with ISBN 2-8266-0718-9.

Eric Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




 --- On Sat 10/08, Taco Walstra  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:
From: Taco Walstra [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:43:41 +0200
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo

On Saturday 08 October 2005 12:39, you wrote:brbrAs said before in the 'new 
boy's' thread the book by Nigel North is the best brstarting book. It gives 
excellent information with some worked out examples brin tablature. In my 
opinion the theoretical chapter on music theory is a bit brshort, when 
starting to figure your own unfigured bass part; it's more an broutline for 
people who already know everything about harmonics, 6, 6/4 brinversions etc. 
etc. but this can also be found in other books. brbrThe french lute society 
has also some booklet on continuo, but of course in brfrench and not known to 
me. brbrA very good book is Traité d'accompagnement pour le théorbe et 
le clavessin br(Paris, 1690) by Denis Delair, available in facsimile by 
Minkoff. The English brtranslation is unfortunately not anymore available, 
but can be found in some bruniversity libraries.brbrComplicated but still 
interesting is brArnold, The art of accompaniment from 
a thorough bass as practised in the 17th brand 18th centuries (Dover 
publications, 2 paperbacks). brbrFleury - Methode pour apprendre facilement 
a toucher le theorbe sur la brbasse-continue, 1660. Minkoff facsimile. Lots 
of mistakes, generally not brrecommended, only historically 
interesting.brbrAgazzari - del sonare sopra 'l basso con tutti li stromenti 
e dell' uso loro brnel conserto, Sienna 1607. Very interesting essay. 
Translation can be found brin Arnold but also on internet. It's more for 
historical background because brof it's early date, not for learning 
continuo. brbrThe 'English songs 1625-1660', Musica Brittanica is a good 
starter, because brthe bass part is worked out in staff, easy songs which fit 
very good on brtheorbo.brTacobr Hi folks,brbr Are there any tutors 
for learning continuo on the theorbo?brbr Thanks,brbr 
Dennisbrbrbrbrbr To get on or off this list see list information 
atbr 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlbrbrbr

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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Sal Salvaggio]

Hi

One thing I did years ago, prior to North's book and
other continuo tutors being published was to take
madrigal collections with keyboard reductions and read
the bottom 3 or 4 parts or just read them from a
choral score, then go back and  take just the bass
line and do an on site realization(protocontinuo) It's
interesting to see the formulas they used. Every once
in a while I put basso figures under some notes. The
AR editions of Caccini, Peri etc. are also fun to go
through the figures are minimal as compared to later
works by Bach, Teleman etc. The Malpierro Vivaldi
series, available in most University Libraries is
great too. But, as far as the 17th cent. goes, watch
that Purcell - some hairy figures. At the same time I
was doing this - late 70's early 80's - I was giving
guitar lessons in studios and in the public schools,
and worked on harmonizing Go tell Aunt Rhody and other
gems, either in jazz chort forms or with a more
classical, finger style/bassline block chordal or
arpeggiated ala Giuliani approach. 
. Oh...and do as much harmonic analysis
of the period you are working with as you can...Hope
this helps

SS



Salvatore Salvaggio 
http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com 







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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[corun]

Dennis wrote:

Hi folks,

Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo?

Hi Dennis,

Nigel's books has already been mentioned as a definitive source for study. 
But if you're looking for a teacher I can recommend Doug Freundlich. 
Trouble is I don't know where either you or he lives so that may be a moot 
point. I want to say Doug is in the Chicago area. Someone else can probably 
correct me. Barring getting Nigel's book, which I highly recommend, seeking 
out a teacher in your area is the best thing to do.

Regards,
Craig




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[dc]

Thanks to all of you for the fine suggestions. I should have added that 
I've been playing continuo on keyboard instruments for years and years, so 
what I'm interested in is the specific theorbo-style continuo. I'm in 
France (near Fontainebleau).

I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found?

Dennis
   




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Arthur Ness]

I had heard that there were plans for a second edition.  Anyone know about it? 
There certainly would be planty demand.
  - Original Message - 
  From: guy_and_liz Smith 
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; dc 
  Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 3:48 PM
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo


  I just checked Amazon.com, and there are a couple of copies available (from 
private dealers).
- Original Message - 
From: dcmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo


Thanks to all of you for the fine suggestions. I should have added that 
I've been playing continuo on keyboard instruments for years and years, so 
what I'm interested in is the specific theorbo-style continuo. I'm in 
France (near Fontainebleau).

I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found?

Dennis
   




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[cweaver100]

Nigel North's book is great.  I haven't heard about a new edition, though.

Those old French treatises are generally not so helpful (Fleury, Delair
etc.)  Bartelomi is pretty good though.  I think it was 1669.  I'm not sure
if there's a facsimile available.

In addition to those realizations by Castaldi, there's a whole book of
villanelle by Kapsberger with guitar alfabeto, b.c. line, and theorbo
tablature.  It's a little hard to know what to make of them though.  Also,
you might find Kapsberger book 3 useful.

There are two theorbo continuo manuscripts that are quite handy.  There's
one in the New York Public library that's basically just fingering tables
(there are some interesting shapes).  The other is the so-called Modena ms,
which has many, many ways of ornamenting various.  It's a treasure trove of
early Italian theorbo style, very florid.  It is a really great source, and
it's been published in a modern edition.

Charlie Weaver



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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[corun]

Dennis wrote:

I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found?

You can find it used from Amazon.co.uk

Regards,
Craig




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[LUTE] Re: continuo

[Nancy Carlin]

Doug lives in the Boston area. I heard a rumor he will be teaching at the 
LSA Lute Fest next Summer in Cleveland.
Nancy Carlin

 Hi folks,
 
 Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo?

Hi Dennis,

Nigel's books has already been mentioned as a definitive source for study.
But if you're looking for a teacher I can recommend Doug Freundlich.
Trouble is I don't know where either you or he lives so that may be a moot
point. I want to say Doug is in the Chicago area. Someone else can probably
correct me. Barring getting Nigel's book, which I highly recommend, seeking
out a teacher in your area is the best thing to do.

Regards,
Craig




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