Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

> I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
> the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
> for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.
> 
> In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
> Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
> played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
> lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
> what he writes on page 31:
> 
> "Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
> by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
> the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
> register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
> the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
> and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
> clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
> Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
> call a soprano lute."
> 
> Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
> instrument required to play it.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Stewart McCoy.
The issue is simple, you are a comedian and want to sound cheesy: play in on
mandolino.
If you are a man of gravitas: arciliuto.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org


 

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Euge]

At 11:24 AM 12/20/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote:
> > I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
> > the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
> > for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.
> >
> > In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
> > Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
> > played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
> > lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
> > what he writes on page 31:
> >
> > "Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
> > by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
> > the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
> > register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
> > the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
> > and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
> > clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
> > Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
> > call a soprano lute."
> >
> > Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
> > instrument required to play it.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Stewart McCoy.
>The issue is simple, you are a comedian and want to sound cheesy: play in on
>mandolino.
>If you are a man of gravitas: arciliuto.
>RT


I'm not entirely certain why the higher octave would imply comedy and 
cheese.  I actually like the 5- or 6-course mandolino and think it achieved 
a fairly high degree of "gravitas" in the first half of the 18th c...and 
not only am I a humorless curmudgeon (not really), but I really only favor 
cheese when it appears in burritos or alfredo.  While I like mandolino, I 
agree that it's not appropriate to Vivaldi except where Vivaldi himself 
specified its use.

Which of Vivaldi's concerti are you to play, Stewart?  Eric Liefeld wrote a 
fine article on this very topic (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's 
Leuto. LSA Quarterly, 28(1): 4-8).  I'll defer to him for a proper reply.

Best,
Eugene

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Edward Martin]

There are various approaches to this piece.  Paul O'Dette performs it on 
the small instrument.

I have done it on a g lute, on an archlute, I did it once on an alto lute 
(it is easier!), and I once did it on a d soprano lute, an octave higher!

People claim that the treble clef without the 8, indicating his intent to 
play it an octave lower, was an oversight, but I do not think there is a 
definitive answer with certainty at this point..

ed


At 04:02 PM 12/20/03 +, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
>the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
>for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.
>
>In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
>Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
>played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
>lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
>what he writes on page 31:
>
>"Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
>by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
>the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
>register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
>the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
>and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
>clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
>Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
>call a soprano lute."
>
>Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
>instrument required to play it.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Stewart McCoy.

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

> There are various approaches to this piece.  Paul O'Dette performs it on
> the small instrument.
> I have done it on a g lute, on an archlute, I did it once on an alto lute
> (it is easier!), and I once did it on a d soprano lute, an octave higher!
> People claim that the treble clef without the 8, indicating his intent to
> play it an octave lower, was an oversight, but I do not think there is a
> definitive answer with certainty at this point..
> ed
It is a question of character rather than style.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Eric Liefeld]

Hi Stewart,

Indeed, this has been a question that has bothered me for some time.  Even
though I play the mandolino, I believe (for a variety of reasons) that 
the leuto
part belongs at the lower octave, in the tenor range.  These pieces are 
certainly
playable on a wide variety of  instruments.

My article that Eugene mentions proposes the mandora for consideration for
Vivaldi's "leuto".  While I won't claim proof for this suggestion, I 
think a rather
compelling circumstantial case can be made to support the mandora in 
this role.
Ultimately, I argue that looking at these pieces in the context of where 
Vivaldi
was, and who he wrote them for provides the best hope for an answer.

Many have chased these pieces from the context of Italy, and Italian 
instruments.
In fact, the three small chamber works (RV82, RV85, and RV93... two 
trios of a
possible original set of six, and the fairly famous D-major concerto) 
were probably
written in Prague around 1730.  Michael Talbot (in "Vivaldi") points out 
that:
1) Vivaldi was likely in Prague, and not Venice at the time,
2) Each of the pieces bears a dedication to the Bohemian Count Johann 
Joseph
von Wrtby, and
3) They are all three printed on "strange paper of central-European 
provenance"

Pietro Prosser has pointed out that the mandora (aka gallichone) was 
*extremely*
popular in Bohemia around this time.  And, in fact, that the mandora was 
the favorite
foil of Bohemian nobility... as they re-created operas and put on their own
entertainments.  According to Pietro, there are apparently lots of 
portraits of nobility
from the period standing around leaning on their mandoras.

In the article I play off the fact that Vivaldi is rather famous for 
aggressively marketing
his music to unsuspecting nobility and royalty.  Count Wrtby, as a known 
avid fan of
the opera (which is presumably why Vivaldi was in Prague in 1730) would 
have likely
proved to be the ideal customer.  I also provide some small small 
justification for the
tenor voice and a brief survey of some surviving mandoras that may be 
appropriate.

Anyway, the mandora (or gallichone) of the period is a lute-like tenor 
instrument tuned
to the intervals of the modern guitar, and versions were popular in both 
D and E (along
with much larger versions in A). Obviously, modern classical guitarists 
play these pieces
all the time ("Vivaldi's Guitar Concerto!!?!?!"  ) so the E tuning is 
certainly plausible.  It
turns out that a D tuning is also possible for these works and presents 
some rather
amazingly attractive ideomatic solutions, particularly in the D-major 
concerto and the
larger-scale D-minor concerto w/ Viola d'Amore (RV540).

Proof will come, I suppose, only when we find a portrait of Wrtby 
leaning on his mandora
holding a scrap of Vivaldi manuscript... :-)

All the best,

Eric

Euge wrote:

>At 11:24 AM 12/20/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>  
>
>>>I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
>>>the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
>>>for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.
>>>
>>>In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
>>>Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
>>>played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
>>>lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
>>>what he writes on page 31:
>>>
>>>"Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
>>>by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
>>>the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
>>>register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
>>>the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
>>>and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
>>>clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
>>>Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
>>>call a soprano lute."
>>>
>>>Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
>>>instrument required to play it.
>>>
>>>Many thanks,
>>>
>>>Stewart McCoy.
>>>  
>>>
>>The issue is simple, you are a comedian and want to sound cheesy: play in on
>>mandolino.
>>If you are a man of gravitas: arciliuto.
>>RT
>>
>>
>
>
>I'm not entirely certain why the higher octave would imply comedy and 
>cheese.  I actually like the 5- or 6-course mandolino and think it achieved 
>a fairly high degree of "gravitas" in the first half of the 18th c...and 
>not only am I a humorless curmudgeon (not really), but I really only favor 
>cheese when it appears in burritos or alfredo.  While I like mandolino, I 
>agree that it's not appropriate to Vivaldi except where Vivaldi himself 
>specified its use.
>
>Which of Vivaldi's concerti are you to play, Stewart?  Eric Liefeld wrote a 
>fine article on this very topic (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's 
>Leuto. LSA Quarterly, 28(1): 4-8).

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

> Indeed, this has been a question that has bothered me for some time.  Even
> though I play the mandolino, I believe (for a variety of reasons) that
> the leuto
> part belongs at the lower octave, in the tenor range.  These pieces are
> certainly
> playable on a wide variety of  instruments.
> 
> My article that Eugene mentions proposes the mandora for consideration for
> Vivaldi's "leuto".  While I won't claim proof for this suggestion, I
> think a rather
> compelling circumstantial case can be made to support the mandora in
> this role.
> Ultimately, I argue that looking at these pieces in the context of where
> Vivaldi
> was, and who he wrote them for provides the best hope for an answer.
> 
> Many have chased these pieces from the context of Italy, and Italian
> instruments.
> In fact, the three small chamber works (RV82, RV85, and RV93... two
> trios of a
> possible original set of six, and the fairly famous D-major concerto)
> were probably
> written in Prague around 1730.  Michael Talbot (in "Vivaldi") points out
> that:
> 1) Vivaldi was likely in Prague, and not Venice at the time,
> 2) Each of the pieces bears a dedication to the Bohemian Count Johann
> Joseph
> von Wrtby, and
> 3) They are all three printed on "strange paper of central-European
> provenance"
> 
> Pietro Prosser has pointed out that the mandora (aka gallichone) was
> *extremely*
> popular in Bohemia around this time.  And, in fact, that the mandora was
> the favorite
> foil of Bohemian nobility... as they re-created operas and put on their own
> entertainments.  According to Pietro, there are apparently lots of
> portraits of nobility
> from the period standing around leaning on their mandoras.
> 
> In the article I play off the fact that Vivaldi is rather famous for
> aggressively marketing
> his music to unsuspecting nobility and royalty.  Count Wrtby, as a known
> avid fan of
> the opera (which is presumably why Vivaldi was in Prague in 1730) would
> have likely
> proved to be the ideal customer.  I also provide some small small
> justification for the
> tenor voice and a brief survey of some surviving mandoras that may be
> appropriate.
> 
> Anyway, the mandora (or gallichone) of the period is a lute-like tenor
> instrument tuned
> to the intervals of the modern guitar, and versions were popular in both
> D and E (along
> with much larger versions in A). Obviously, modern classical guitarists
> play these pieces
> all the time ("Vivaldi's Guitar Concerto!!?!?!"  ) so the E tuning is
> certainly plausible.  It
> turns out that a D tuning is also possible for these works and presents
> some rather
> amazingly attractive ideomatic solutions, particularly in the D-major
> concerto and the
> larger-scale D-minor concerto w/ Viola d'Amore (RV540).
> Proof will come, I suppose, only when we find a portrait of Wrtby
> leaning on his mandora
> holding a scrap of Vivaldi manuscript... :-)
> All the best,
> Eric
I agree with this, mandora IS the lute of south-eastern Europe; to which I
might add that an interesting solution could also be an unusual 13 course
Schelle instrument at the Budapest museum. A small-bowled lute, with 14
frets on the neck. I suspect it is a variety of gallichon, but Pietro
Prosser thinks it is an unusual Baroque Lute.>>
RT

__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org



 I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
 the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
 for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.
 
 In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
 Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
 played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
 lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
 what he writes on page 31:
 
 "Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
 by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
 the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
 register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
 the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
 and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
 clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
 Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
 call a soprano lute."
 
 Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
 instrument required to play it.
 
 Many thanks,
 
 Stewart McCoy.
 
 
>>> The issue is simple, you are a comedian and want to sound cheesy: play in on
>>> mandolino.
>>> If you are a man of gravitas: arciliuto.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm not entirely certain why the higher octave would imply comedy and
>> cheese.  I actually like the 5- or 6-course mandolino and think it achieved
>> a fai

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[KennethBeLute]

In a message dated 12/20/03 12:53:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Anyway, the mandora (or gallichone) of the period is a lute-like tenor 
> instrument tuned
> to the intervals of the modern guitar, and versions were popular in both 
> D and E (along
> with much larger versions in A). Obviously, modern classical guitarists 
> play these pieces
> all the time ("Vivaldi's Guitar Concerto!!?!?!"  ) so the E tuning is 
> certainly plausible.  It
> turns out that a D tuning is also possible for these works and presents 
> some rather
> amazingly attractive ideomatic solutions, particularly in the D-major 
> concerto and the
> larger-scale D-minor concerto w/ Viola d'Amore (RV540).

I am not an expert in this area, but I CAN say that recently I saw and heard 
a beautiful gallichon (in E?) built by Paolo Busato and owned by Davide 
Rebuffa and can well imagine this instrument performing the Vivaldi concerti.  It 
also had a robust tone which seemed effective for a continuo instrument.

Was the gallichon sometimes referred to as a "leuto" in the 18th C?

Kenneth Be
Cleveland, Ohio

--

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[James A Stimson]

Dear Stewart and All:
 In the most recent issue of the Lute Society of America Quarterly, Eric
Liefield make a convincing argument for the gallichon, with the part played
an octave lower than written.
Yours,
Jim



   

  "Stewart McCoy"  

  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To:   "Lute Net" <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>
  erve.co.uk>  cc: 

   Subject:  Vivaldi Lute Concerto 

  12/20/2003 11:02 AM  

   

   





Dear All,

I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.

In his book _The Early Mandolin_, Early Music Series 9 (Oxford:
Clarendon Press, 1989) James Tyler argues that the music should be
played an octave lower than written, presumably on a bog standard
lute in g', and not, as some musicians do, on a mandolino. This is
what he writes on page 31:

"Many modern performers have been confused as to the lute intended
by Vivaldi for his music, and because the music is mostly written in
the treble clef, have assumed it is to be played in the same
register as the violin. They have ignored the fact that Vivaldi has
the lute play from the bass clef as a continuo instrument (see RV540
and RV556) when it is not playing its solo passages from the treble
clef. This confusion has led some eminent performers to play
Vivaldi's lute pieces on a mandolino which, for their purposes, they
call a soprano lute."

Please could anyone tell me more about this piece, and the sort of
instrument required to play it.

Many thanks,

Stewart McCoy.

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Eric Liefeld]

Hi Kenneth,

(I think/hope that I have my bizzare formatting problems solved...
my appologies to the list!)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> I am not an expert in this area, but I CAN say that recently I saw and 
> heard a beautiful gallichon (in E?) built by Paolo Busato and owned by 
> Davide Rebuffa and can well imagine this instrument performing the 
> Vivaldi concerti.  It also had a robust tone which seemed effective 
> for a continuo instrument.
>
> Was the gallichon sometimes referred to as a "leuto" in the 18th C?
>
> Kenneth Be
> Cleveland, Ohio

Other than the argument that "leuto" might have been used in the generic
sense to describe any lute-like instrument, I can cite two examples that,
though not exactly in the same context, are at least interesting:

Toward the end of the 18th century (circa 1799), two composers in Vienna,
Giovanni Hoffmann, and Giovanni Francesco Guiliani both wrote some
nice little quartets scored for violin, mandolin, viola (or cello), and 
"liuto"
(with some variation in the scoring from one set of quartets to another). 
These liuto parts are written in the bass clef where they play accompanying
figures, and in the treble clef where the liuto plays melody lines.  The
mandora (in E, presumably) is thought to be the "liuto" intended for these
parts (Tyler & Sparks, 1989, _The Early Mandolin_, pp 39-41).

In addition, there is a surviving method from (circa 1770-80) for a fairly
obscure mandolin variant known as the Mandolino Genovese.  This was
the instrument for which Paganini (and virtually nobody else) wrote.  One
of the names used in this method, in addition to Mandolino alla Genovese
is "leutino" (Tyler & Sparks, 1989, _The Early Mandolin_, pp. 140).  This
name is interesting because the six-course Genoese mandolin was tuned
to the intervals and pitches of the modern guitar (mandora in E), only an
octave higher.

Note that all of the above uses of leuto/liuto are likely by people that 
are
likely of Italian extraction.  I would be glad to know of other examples.

All the best,

Eric

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Howard Posner]

Edward Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Paul O'Dette performs it on
> the small instrument.

He recorded it that way years ago, but I don't know that he'd do it that way
now.  In the 80's years ago it was pretty much accepted wisdom that Vivaldi
was writing for a soprano lute (I think because the available editions
didn't show the lute on the basso continuo part); I don't think anyone
seriously thinks so now.  I believe there's a discussion of the issue in the
notes to Jakob Lindberg's Vivaldi recording.

HP

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Euge]

At 03:24 PM 12/20/03 -0800, Howard Posner wrote:
>Edward Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Paul O'Dette performs it on
> > the small instrument.
>
>He recorded it that way years ago, but I don't know that he'd do it that way
>now.  In the 80's years ago it was pretty much accepted wisdom that Vivaldi
>was writing for a soprano lute (I think because the available editions
>didn't show the lute on the basso continuo part); I don't think anyone
>seriously thinks so now.  I believe there's a discussion of the issue in the
>notes to Jakob Lindberg's Vivaldi recording.
>
>HP


Paul O'Dette most certainly _not_ record Vivaldi's lute works that way 
now.  Yes, his recording of the Vivaldi did use 6-course mandolino.  Works 
to specify "mandolino" were recorded on mandolino played with a plectrum; 
works to specify "leuto," on a mandolino played fingerstyle. Exceptions are 
RV 540 where Paul used an archlute and RV 558, which is omitted from this 
recording.  I was fortunate to see Paul O'Dette perform Vivaldi with 
Apollo's Fire Baroque Orchestra and give a lecture early this year. I 
discussed his use of mandolino on this recording with him. Mr. O'Dette has 
recanted his position on Vivaldi's leuto; he still plays the works to 
specify "mandolino" on 6-course mandolino (of course), but now plays the 
works to specify "leuto" on archlute.

Eugene

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Eric Liefeld]

Hi Howard,

Just to be clear (probably a nit), all of the original leuto parts
are melodic and written in the treble clef (not specifically basso
continuo).  In RV82, RV85, and RV93, the leuto parts are
continuous throughout along with the violin part(s).

The exception is the later RV540 where the leuto and viola
d'amore parts are blank at the tutti sections.  Indeed, in RV540,
Vivaldi's instructions read:

"/Tutti,, la Viola d'amore rinforza, a unisono, i Violini I. e il Leuto 
i Bassi/"

RV82, RV85, and RV93 are small-scale chamber works while
RV540 is a later and larger-scale "concerto grosso".

Eric

Howard Posner wrote:

>In the 80's years ago it was pretty much accepted wisdom that Vivaldi
>was writing for a soprano lute (I think because the available editions
>didn't show the lute on the basso continuo part); I don't think anyone
>seriously thinks so now.
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Eric Liefeld]

Hi Eugene,

>Paul O'Dette most certainly _not_ record Vivaldi's lute works that way 
>now.  Yes, his recording of the Vivaldi did use 6-course mandolino.  Works 
>to specify "mandolino" were recorded on mandolino played with a plectrum; 
>works to specify "leuto," on a mandolino played fingerstyle. Exceptions are 
>RV 540 where Paul used an archlute and RV 558, which is omitted from this 
>recording.
>  
>
The liner notes are a litle non-specific but I *believe* Mr. O'Dette 
actually
plays a D-minor baroque lute on the recording for RV540 (listed as baroque
lute, Martin Bowers, 1980).  This is certainly a reasonable answer as well
given the Dresden connection for RV540 and for what its worth, I like this
rendition of RV540 quite alot.

Eric

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Euge]

At 06:30 PM 12/20/03 -0700, Eric Liefeld wrote:
>The liner notes are a litle non-specific but I *believe* Mr. O'Dette
>actually
>plays a D-minor baroque lute on the recording for RV540 (listed as baroque
>lute, Martin Bowers, 1980).  This is certainly a reasonable answer as well
>given the Dresden connection for RV540 and for what its worth, I like this
>rendition of RV540 quite alot.
>
>Eric


Ah, I think I had assumed archlute based upon his recently professed 
preferences.

Eugene

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Jerzy ZAK]

Dear Eric,

I know your article in the LSAQ, as well as an article by Linda Sayce 
in Lute News (English LS) and I am attentive to all news about the 
mandora/galichone, which seems quite in fashion nowadays ...but am 
still sceptical regarding its relevance to Vivaldi's music with 
''leuto''.


On Saturday, Dec 20, 2003, at 23:40 Europe/Warsaw, Eric Liefeld wrote:
> Toward the end of the 18th century (circa 1799), ...
..
> In addition, there is a surviving method from (circa 1770-80)
..
> I would be glad to know of other examples.


Rather to the contrary...

 From Bohemian sources we have e.g. the Janovka's Dictionary (1701), who 
gives one of the first descriptions of the galichone and the mandora, 
but on the other hand he says:

''Testitudo notissimum in nostris partibus instrumentum; nam tanta 
per omnes domos, quocunque te verteris in Triurbe hac Regia, Lautnarum 
est copia, ut nescio qout Maximorum Palatiorum, in casu huius probandi 
asserti, tectis ex integro construendis fuccurrere eis posses.
Instrumentum Nobile, ...''

What in short means that the noble lutes (f-d-a-f-d-a-...) are so 
popular one could cover with them all ruffs of the Prague palaces (a 
better translation welcome).

According to Linda Sayce there is only one Italian source (Marzani, 
Villa Lagrima) for mandora music in contrast to almost all German ones.

It is obvious to me that any kind of Italian ''leuto'' (lute?, 
archlute, F.Dalla Casa's _arcileuto francese_, &c.) would be more 
familiar to Vivaldi, then any type of Bohemian/German/Ukrainian 
''half-lute''.

Beside of all, there is simply no physical/logical proof for ''Vivaldi 
and the mandora'', just speculations on the wave of the newly 
''rediscovered'' instrument.

Being sceptical, I'll remain open to all news...

Kindest regards,
Jurek

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Eric Liefeld]

Dear Jurek (please forgive me if I've gotten your name wrong),

Thank you for your note. Rest assured that I respect both your opinion and
your skepticism.  The latter is certainly a healthy thing.  You have 
correctly
re-stated that I offer the mandora only for _consideration_ as Vivaldi's 
"leuto",
not with distinct proof.   As for riding the mandora wave, that is pure 
chance...
I originally set out to evaluate (for myself) something else entirely.

>What in short means that the noble lutes (f-d-a-f-d-a-...) are so 
>popular one could cover with them all ruffs of the Prague palaces (a 
>better translation welcome).
>  
>
I don't dispute the justified popularity of the D-minor baroque lute in 
Bohemia.  I like
them too :-)  Nonetheless, with the possibile exception of  RV540, this 
seems like very
simple and pedestrian music for the considerable resources of a 
13-course instrument
(my own non-original skepticism).

>According to Linda Sayce there is only one Italian source (Marzani, 
>Villa Lagrima) for mandora music in contrast to almost all German ones.
>  
>
For all four of these pieces, the dedicatees are known and they are not 
Italian (Wrtby and
Fredrick Christian) .  I would assert only that Vivaldi has been shown 
to be very "customer-
focused" and able to write for a wide range of instruments.

>It is obvious to me that any kind of Italian ''leuto'' (lute?, 
>archlute, F.Dalla Casa's _arcileuto francese_, &c.) would be more 
>familiar to Vivaldi, then any type of Bohemian/German/Ukrainian 
>''half-lute''.
>  
>
More familiar to Vivaldi?, perhaps.   The question is, what would have 
been more familiar
to his (paying?) Bohemian customer (Count Wrtby)?  ... and if a half a 
lute is all that is
required for the music, why not?  :-)

>Being sceptical, I'll remain open to all news...
>
>  
>
As will I.  All the best,

Eric

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

>> Toward the end of the 18th century (circa 1799), ...
> ..
>> In addition, there is a surviving method from (circa 1770-80)
> ..
>> I would be glad to know of other examples.
> Rather to the contrary...
> From Bohemian sources we have e.g. the Janovka's Dictionary (1701), who
> gives one of the first descriptions of the galichone and the mandora,
> but on the other hand he says:
> ''Testitudo notissimum in nostris partibus instrumentum; nam tanta
> per omnes domos, quocunque te verteris in Triurbe hac Regia, Lautnarum
> est copia, ut nescio qout Maximorum Palatiorum, in casu huius probandi
> asserti, tectis ex integro construendis fuccurrere eis posses.
> Instrumentum Nobile, ...''
> What in short means that the noble lutes (f-d-a-f-d-a-...) are so
> popular one could cover with them all ruffs of the Prague palaces (a
> better translation welcome).
> 
> According to Linda Sayce there is only one Italian source (Marzani,
> Villa Lagrima) for mandora music in contrast to almost all German ones.
> 
> It is obvious to me that any kind of Italian ''leuto'' (lute?,
> archlute, F.Dalla Casa's _arcileuto francese_, &c.) would be more
> familiar to Vivaldi, then any type of Bohemian/German/Ukrainian
> ''half-lute''.
> 
> Beside of all, there is simply no physical/logical proof for ''Vivaldi
> and the mandora'', just speculations on the wave of the newly
> ''rediscovered'' instrument.
> Being sceptical, I'll remain open to all news...
> Kindest regards,
> Jurek
Come to think of it: The "mandora factor" would be the way of "least
resistance" because of the instrument's versatility, but that doesn't make
any more appropriate. It all boils down to musical character, performer's
taste/intelligence, or lack thereof. I would be willing to cede the D-major
concerto to mandora, because it is rather superficial in comparison with the
d-minor one (with viola d'amore) which requires a very different aesthetic.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

> At 06:30 PM 12/20/03 -0700, Eric Liefeld wrote:
>> The liner notes are a litle non-specific but I *believe* Mr. O'Dette
>> actually
>> plays a D-minor baroque lute on the recording for RV540 (listed as baroque
>> lute, Martin Bowers, 1980).  This is certainly a reasonable answer as well
>> given the Dresden connection for RV540 and for what its worth, I like this
>> rendition of RV540 quite alot.
>> 
>> Eric
> Ah, I think I had assumed archlute based upon his recently professed
> preferences.
> Eugene
I believe this was his only excursion into Baroque Lute, BUT he didn't pluck
basses.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

 

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Edward Martin]

I shall look at those notes soon.  Interesting.

ed

At 03:24 PM 12/20/03 -0800, Howard Posner wrote:
>Edward Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Paul O'Dette performs it on
> > the small instrument.
>
>He recorded it that way years ago, but I don't know that he'd do it that way
>now.  In the 80's years ago it was pretty much accepted wisdom that Vivaldi
>was writing for a soprano lute (I think because the available editions
>didn't show the lute on the basso continuo part); I don't think anyone
>seriously thinks so now.  I believe there's a discussion of the issue in the
>notes to Jakob Lindberg's Vivaldi recording.
>
>HP

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Ed Durbrow]

>Dear All,
>
>I have just had a phone call from someone who has been asked to play
>the Vivaldi lute concerto, but they don't know what instrument it is
>for. It goes up to c''', i.e. two octaves above middle c'.

I just read an article about this. I'm looking for it but can't find 
it. It must have been in the 2002 Lute Society Journal because I 
couldn't find it in the index for the Journals at the LuteSoc website 
and that only goes up to 2001. It made a strong case for the mandora 
for Vivaldi concertos and ensemble works.
-- 
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Thomas Schall]

And I don't think it works on a mandolino (if RV540 is the one in
question) because (not having it at hand at the moment) I think it goes
down to F. 
Anyhow there are awkward passages in it if played on Archiliuto ...

Thomas

Am Sam, 2003-12-20 um 17.59 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

> > There are various approaches to this piece.  Paul O'Dette performs it on
> > the small instrument.
> > I have done it on a g lute, on an archlute, I did it once on an alto lute
> > (it is easier!), and I once did it on a d soprano lute, an octave higher!
> > People claim that the treble clef without the 8, indicating his intent to
> > play it an octave lower, was an oversight, but I do not think there is a
> > definitive answer with certainty at this point..
> > ed
> It is a question of character rather than style.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://turovsky.org
> http://polyhymnion.org
> 

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3   
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss

--

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Thomas Schall]

Actually many of the "awkward passages" I mentioned in my earlier mail
are much easier to handle on a lute in d-minor.

Thomas

Am Son, 2003-12-21 um 02.30 schrieb Eric Liefeld:

> Hi Eugene,
> 
> >Paul O'Dette most certainly _not_ record Vivaldi's lute works that way 
> >now.  Yes, his recording of the Vivaldi did use 6-course mandolino.  Works 
> >to specify "mandolino" were recorded on mandolino played with a plectrum; 
> >works to specify "leuto," on a mandolino played fingerstyle. Exceptions are 
> >RV 540 where Paul used an archlute and RV 558, which is omitted from this 
> >recording.
> >  
> >
> The liner notes are a litle non-specific but I *believe* Mr. O'Dette 
> actually
> plays a D-minor baroque lute on the recording for RV540 (listed as baroque
> lute, Martin Bowers, 1980).  This is certainly a reasonable answer as well
> given the Dresden connection for RV540 and for what its worth, I like this
> rendition of RV540 quite alot.
> 
> Eric
> 

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3   
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss

--

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Markus Lutz]

Although there is no evidence at all, it is a nice thought that one/some of the 
Vivaldi concerts could be written for S.L.Weiss ;-). 
At least Vivaldi had a good connection to the Dresden court. Pisendel was his 
composition pupil and Vivaldi dedictated many Violin concerts to him. 

Markus

On 21 Dec 2003 18:37:32 ¯0100, Thomas Schall wrote:

TS> Actually many of the "awkward passages" I mentioned in my earlier mail
TS> are much easier to handle on a lute in d-minor.
TS>
TS> Thomas
TS>
TS> Am Son, 2003-12-21 um 02.30 schrieb Eric Liefeld:
TS>
TS> > Hi Eugene,
TS> >
TS> > >Paul O'Dette most certainly _not_ record Vivaldi's lute works that way
TS> > >now.  Yes, his recording of the Vivaldi did use 6-course mandolino.  Works
TS> > >to specify "mandolino" were recorded on mandolino played with a plectrum;
TS> > >works to specify "leuto," on a mandolino played fingerstyle. Exceptions are
TS> > >RV 540 where Paul used an archlute and RV 558, which is omitted from this
TS> > >recording.
TS> > >
TS> > >
TS> > The liner notes are a litle non-specific but I *believe* Mr. O'Dette
TS> > actually
TS> > plays a D-minor baroque lute on the recording for RV540 (listed as baroque
TS> > lute, Martin Bowers, 1980).  This is certainly a reasonable answer as well
TS> > given the Dresden connection for RV540 and for what its worth, I like this
TS> > rendition of RV540 quite alot.
TS> >
TS> > Eric
TS> >
TS>
TS> --
TS> Thomas Schall
TS> Niederhofheimer Weg 3   
TS> D-65843 Sulzbach
TS> 06196/74519
TS> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TS> www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss
TS>
TS> --
TS>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Arne Keller]

At 15:24 20-12-2003 -0800, Howard Posner wrote:
>Edward Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Paul O'Dette performs it on
>> the small instrument.
>
>He recorded it that way years ago, but I don't know that he'd do it that way
>now.  In the 80's years ago it was pretty much accepted wisdom that Vivaldi
>was writing for a soprano lute (I think because the available editions
>didn't show the lute on the basso continuo part); I don't think anyone
>seriously thinks so now.  I believe there's a discussion of the issue in the
>notes to Jakob Lindberg's Vivaldi recording.
>
>HP

In the 80's I played my 6-course A-lute for the D-major concert - well,
bits of it, arranged for a theatre production.
It seemed to fit quite nicely, better than on a G-lute.
I think Vivaldi wrote this specially for his nobleman friend, who could
have found and old A-lute in the attic.

Just my theory.

Chordially,

Arne.

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Sal Salvaggio]

On this Vivaldi Concerto -

I've played it on the Baroque (dm) lute and it sits
very well - I wonder if a certain German Lutenist was
in town and played it back in Antonio's
day.

SS

__
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Michael Stitt]

J.S.Bach?  :-)
 
Michael Stitt
http://weissplucked.com/


Sal Salvaggio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On this Vivaldi Concerto -

I've played it on the Baroque (dm) lute and it sits
very well - I wonder if a certain German Lutenist was
in town and played it back in Antonio's
day.

SS

__
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/





-
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
--

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[doc rossi]

I think questions concerning which octave, which instrument, are 
anachronistic - in those days you played the music you wanted to play 
on the instrument you had, and adapted the music to suit.  This is 
quite harshly put, but the gist is there.  I've performed Vivaldi on 
18th-century cittern in C tuning and it works very well, without 
changing keys for pieces in Gm, D and so on.

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[doc rossi]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for your comments.  If I am being unfair to musicologists (and i 
don't believe I am), I am doing so from inside the group.  We agree on 
the historical and practical reasons you've mentioned, but I think that 
losing sight of of the musical cultural of a period (as little as we 
can understand it from here) - in this case the "open-mindedness" (for 
lack of a better term) about performance practice that I mentioned - we 
run the risk of applying contemporary ideas and concerns to a period 
and thus distorting our understanding of it.  Even the idea that we 
should pursue "what the composer had in mind" can be misleading in 
terms of history, but we're getting away from purely lute issues now, 
so I'll stop here.

All the best for the coming year,

Doc

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Arne Keller]

At 21:48 22-12-2003 +0100, you wrote: 



ArialDear Arne,

thanks for your email.

I don't really understand what you mean. 

I think if you want a small lute tuned in A at Vivaldi's time it has to
be an archlute or liuto attiorbato. Of course the lute works dedicated to
Count Wtrby could have been played in the d minor german lute but never
with a plectrum. 

There is no evidence of the use of the plectrum on baroque instruments (
mandoline , never the lute) until around 1770. besides Vivaldi write that
the lute player should play the continuo(in the D minor concerto with
viola d'amore) when he is not playing the solo part, that also needs
harmony, at least in the slow movements. If you do not use an archlute
the violins, cello and violone must use a sordina.

best wishes

davide



All right, I try again, then.


I am not too familiar with Vivaldi's instructions, only vaguely remember
that at least one of them -

the D-major one - was written for a noble amateur friend.


What we did on stage back then, was just making the best of a bad job.


The play, "Il Campiello", is by Goldoni.

Dramatically something of a catastrophe: No story, no plot, a lot of
posturing, running around,

and saucy dialogue - a 1700s' "sit-com", if you will.

Surprisingly, the production went down rather well, due to lavish
scenography, good actors, and -

Vivaldi. The music was aptly chosen, since Vivaldi was a personal friend
of Goldoni. Vivaldi even

saved Goldoni from getting arrested by the cops, at some point, as I
remember.


As for the lutes, there was no way the 13-course could project the melody
line as well as the small

ren-lute in A, in a theatre with velvet, sound-absorbing seats.

Thus the 13-course had to do bass duty - there was no viol, or cello,
available - but could only be heard when

hit with a good plectrum.

Most un-HIP, I confess - but what were we to do?

Anyway, our personas were those of 3 drunken Venetian carnival revellers,
and as such an unorthodox selection

of instruments could surely be accepted in a stage context.


I would just like to make the point, that although there were many
different lute types in vogue at Vivaldi's

time, it should not be ruled out that Vivaldi could have taken it into
his head to write for an otherwise

obsolete instrument, like a ren. A-lute, if prompted to it by chance.


All the best,


Arne.

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

> thanks for your email.
> 
> I don't really understand what you mean.
> 
> I think if you want a small lute tuned in A at Vivaldi's time it has to
> be an archlute or liuto attiorbato. Of course the lute works dedicated to
> Count Wtrby could have been played in the d minor german lute but never
> with a plectrum. 
> 
> There is no evidence of the use of the plectrum on baroque instruments (
> mandoline , never the lute) until around 1770. besides Vivaldi write that
> the lute player should play the continuo(in the D minor concerto with
> viola d'amore) when he is not playing the solo part, that also needs
> harmony, at least in the slow movements. If you do not use an archlute
> the violins, cello and violone must use a sordina.
That concerto is entirely designated "con sordino" I believe, which is the
only possible solution for making any lute heard. Otherwise you'd only hear
wrong notes.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Jon Murphy]

Doc, Stewart, and all;

I see no dichotomy between the idea of the musicians of an era playing the
music in whichever octave, or whatever style, that fit their instrument and
skills - and the idea of the modern musicologist attempting to duplicate the
instruments and play of the specifice pieces with the instruments on which
they were written. Two sides of the same coin, and each equally valid.

I play O'Carolan on a modern nylon strung harp, but his music was done on
the wire strung Celtic harp. My wire strung psaltery might be more accurate
to the sound (as are the wire strung harp players), but does that change the
music? It does change the sound, and some of the nuance, but the double
strung aspect of my harp might have been fun for O'Carolan to try.

So far as I'm concerned both views are right. The duplicator with original
instruments (as my modern flautist friend who has an "original instrument"
Baroque group) and the musician playing the music on a more modern
instrument.
It becomes a matter of versatility in musical form versus historical
accuracy, and that is more a matter of personal desire than musical value.
Does the pianist have to avoid playing pieces written for harpsichord? Does
a musician have to have the exact instrument for every piece he wants to
play? Yes, if you define each as a replica of the performance o the time.
And no, if you don't have a very large warehouse to store all the
instruments.

The musicologist is right in the attempt to duplicate the sounds of the
period, and the musician is right to play and preserve all the music that he
can. Each is doing a different thing, and each is valuable to music.

Best, Jon

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Jerzy ZAK]

Dear Jon,

Nice story for a Christmas time. But in real life it is not that easy 
and peaceful. Nevertheless lets stick to your version for the holiday 
time at least and be forgiving to all pluckers and musicographers - 
including myself - which don't represent the others views.

Best regards to you and All the lute community.
Jurek



On Wednesday, Dec 24, 2003, at 09:50 Europe/Warsaw, Jon Murphy wrote:

> Doc, Stewart, and all;
>
> I see no dichotomy between the idea of the musicians of an era playing 
> the
> music in whichever octave, or whatever style, that fit their 
> instrument and
> skills - and the idea of the modern musicologist attempting to 
> duplicate the
> instruments and play of the specifice pieces with the instruments on 
> which
> they were written. Two sides of the same coin, and each equally valid.
>
> I play O'Carolan on a modern nylon strung harp, but his music was done 
> on
> the wire strung Celtic harp. My wire strung psaltery might be more 
> accurate
> to the sound (as are the wire strung harp players), but does that 
> change the
> music? It does change the sound, and some of the nuance, but the double
> strung aspect of my harp might have been fun for O'Carolan to try.
>
> So far as I'm concerned both views are right. The duplicator with 
> original
> instruments (as my modern flautist friend who has an "original 
> instrument"
> Baroque group) and the musician playing the music on a more modern
> instrument.
> It becomes a matter of versatility in musical form versus historical
> accuracy, and that is more a matter of personal desire than musical 
> value.
> Does the pianist have to avoid playing pieces written for harpsichord? 
> Does
> a musician have to have the exact instrument for every piece he wants 
> to
> play? Yes, if you define each as a replica of the performance o the 
> time.
> And no, if you don't have a very large warehouse to store all the
> instruments.
>
> The musicologist is right in the attempt to duplicate the sounds of the
> period, and the musician is right to play and preserve all the music 
> that he
> can. Each is doing a different thing, and each is valuable to music.
>
> Best, Jon
>
>
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[A.J. Padilla, M.D.]

I whistled some Dowland today
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "doc rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto


> Doc, Stewart, and all;
>
> I see no dichotomy between the idea of the musicians of an era playing the
> music in whichever octave, or whatever style, that fit their instrument
and
> skills - and the idea of the modern musicologist attempting to duplicate
the
> instruments and play of the specifice pieces with the instruments on which
> they were written. Two sides of the same coin, and each equally valid.
>
> I play O'Carolan on a modern nylon strung harp, but his music was done on
> the wire strung Celtic harp. My wire strung psaltery might be more
accurate
> to the sound (as are the wire strung harp players), but does that change
the
> music? It does change the sound, and some of the nuance, but the double
> strung aspect of my harp might have been fun for O'Carolan to try.
>
> So far as I'm concerned both views are right. The duplicator with original
> instruments (as my modern flautist friend who has an "original instrument"
> Baroque group) and the musician playing the music on a more modern
> instrument.
> It becomes a matter of versatility in musical form versus historical
> accuracy, and that is more a matter of personal desire than musical value.
> Does the pianist have to avoid playing pieces written for harpsichord?
Does
> a musician have to have the exact instrument for every piece he wants to
> play? Yes, if you define each as a replica of the performance o the time.
> And no, if you don't have a very large warehouse to store all the
> instruments.
>
> The musicologist is right in the attempt to duplicate the sounds of the
> period, and the musician is right to play and preserve all the music that
he
> can. Each is doing a different thing, and each is valuable to music.
>
> Best, Jon
>
>
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[doc rossi]

> I whistled some Dowland today

Are you a HIP whistler?

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[David Rastall]

Interesting thought, isn't it?  When Dowland "whistled a happy tune," 
it probably came out complete with shakes, relishes, backfalls etc. 
and, of course, diminutions.  Gaultier probably whistled in "notes 
inegale."  I imagine when Charlie parker whistled a happy tune, it came 
out like bebop!

Regards,

David Rastall


On Wednesday, December 24, 2003, at 09:28 AM, doc rossi wrote:

>> I whistled some Dowland today
>
> Are you a HIP whistler?
>
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[A.J. Padilla, M.D.]

VENI MIDI VINCI
- Original Message - 
From: "doc rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "A.J. Padilla, M.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto


> > I whistled some Dowland today
> 
> Are you a HIP whistler?
> 
> 

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[RichardTomBeck]

Reminds me of the shortest love story in history VIDI, VICI, VENI

Apologies :-)

TB

--

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[David Rastall]

Ho!  Ho!  Good one.  I'm surprised you had the GAUL to say such a 
thing...

DR

On Wednesday, December 24, 2003, at 02:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

> Reminds me of the shortest love story in history VIDI, VICI, VENI
>
> Apologies :-)
>
> TB
>
> --
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Jon Murphy]

TB,

A wonderful love story, which leads me a philosophical question. In my youth
we joked that BIBO ERGO SUM - as I age I wonder if it should be SUM ERGO
BIBO.

Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto


> Reminds me of the shortest love story in history VIDI, VICI, VENI
>
> Apologies :-)
>
> TB
>
> --
>
>

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[David Rastall]

On Friday, December 26, 2003, at 12:56 AM, Jon Murphy wrote:

> TB,
>
> A wonderful love story, which leads me a philosophical question. In my 
> youth
> we joked that BIBO ERGO SUM - as I age I wonder if it should be SUM 
> ERGO
> BIBO.

What you might call "putting Descartes before the horse..."?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

DR

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

>> A wonderful love story, which leads me a philosophical question. In my
>> youth
>> we joked that BIBO ERGO SUM - as I age I wonder if it should be SUM
>> ERGO
>> BIBO.
> What you might call "putting Descartes before the horse..."?
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
> DR
You mean you can lead RDescartes to the inn, but you cannot make him
drink?
RT

Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Jon Murphy]

> What you might call "putting Descartes before the horse..."?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
Ouch, topped again . 

Best, Jon

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:

Hello all

I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
concerto I found on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE

BRUNO


Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course 
liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.


Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect 
their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.


Best

Matthew



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes differ Ron.
Matthew



> On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>   Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
>   while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
>   Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
>   Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
>   music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
>   sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
>   what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
>   microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
>   the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
>   As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
>   ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
>   historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
>   ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
>   and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
>   not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
>   historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
>   placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of Matthew Daillie 
>   Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
>   To: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
> 
>>   On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
>   lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>[1]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [2][maxresdefault.jpg]
>   [3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>   youtu.be
>   Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>   Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>> 
>>BRUNO
>   Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course
>   liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
>   Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect
>   their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
>   Best
>   Matthew
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   [5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>   www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting
>   on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get
>   off the lute mail list?
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   2. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   3. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Inviato da iPad

> Il giorno 10 ott 2016, alle ore 17:14, Ron Andrico  ha 
> scritto:
> 
>   The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought Luca
>   Pianca's performance was musical.  The rest is supported by factual
>   information.
> __
> 
>   From: Matthew Daillie 
>   Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
>   To: Ron Andrico
>   Cc: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
> 
>   I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes differ
>   Ron.
>   Matthew
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico  wrote:
>> 
>>  Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
>>  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and
>   his
>>  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection
>   with
>>  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded
>   this
>>  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather
>   stiff
>>  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely
>   but
>>  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do
>   with a
>>  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
>   rest of
>>  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
>   mentioned.
>>  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the
>   old
>>  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
>>  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
>>  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa
>   1600,
>>  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
>>  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
>>  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
>>  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
>> 
>>  RA
>   ______
>> 
>>  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on
>   behalf
>>  of Matthew Daillie 
>>  Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
>>  To: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>> 
>>>  On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>>> Hello all
>>> 
>>>   I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
>>  lute
>>>   concerto I found on YouTube.
>>> 
>>>   [1]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>>  [2][maxresdefault.jpg]
>>  [3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>>  youtu.be
>>  Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>>  Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>>> 
>>>   BRUNO
>>  Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung
>   13-course
>>  liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
>>  Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I
>   suspect
>>  their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically
>   informed.
>>  Best
>>  Matthew
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  [5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>>  [1]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   [2]Department of Computer Science
>   www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Assistant Professor in Machine Learning. We are inviting applications
>   for a tenure-track faculty position at the level of assistant professor
>   in the area of machine ...
>>  Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
>   getting
>>  on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I
>   get
>>  off the lute mail list?
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. [3]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [4][maxresdefault.jpg]
>   [5]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>   youtu.be
>   Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>   Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>>  2. [6]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [7]YouTube
>   youtu.be
>   and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
>>  3. [8]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [9]YouTube
>   youtu.be
>   and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTub

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 17:14, Ron Andrico wrote:
The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought Luca 
Pianca's performance was musical.  The rest is supported by factual 
information.


I'll let you have the last word



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Edward Martin]

   I have performed this concerto in the past, a few times.   Firstly, I
   observed his fingerings, and it is apparent that he is playing in C -
   major.   The composition is in D - major, so I think the ensemble
   recorded it a step down from how it was actually composed.
   Actually those fingerings are easier in C major than in D major.   I
   once performed it with an ensemble in D major, but used an alto lute in
   "a", so it had the same relative tuning as he used.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Ron Andrico
   <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought
 Luca
Pianca's performance was musical.   The rest is supported by
 factual
information.
  
 __
From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
To: Ron Andrico
Cc: fournierbru; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

  I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes
   differ
  Ron.
  Matthew
  > On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico <[4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
  >
  >Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different
   meaning
  >while I wasn't paying attention.   I should think Luca Pianca
   and
  his
  >Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure
   connection
  with
  >Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.   O'Dette
   recorded
  this
  >music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a
   rather
  stiff
  >sounding band.   McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and
   lovely
  but
  >what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to
   do
  with a
  >microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
  rest of
  >the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
  mentioned.
  >As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by
   the
  old
  >ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  >historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.   The under thumb
   approach
  >ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses,
   circa
  1600,
  >and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  >not using an historically-informed approach.   So unless
  >historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  >placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
  >
  >RA
  >
  __
  >
  >From: [5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf
  >of Matthew Daillie <[7]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
  >To: fournierbru; [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
  >
  >>On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
  >> Hello all
  >>
  >> I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the
   Vivaldu
  >lute
  >> concerto I found on YouTube.
  >>
  >> [1][9]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
  >[2][maxresdefault.jpg]
  >[3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino
   Armonico
  >[10]youtu.be
  >Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2
   Largo 3
  >Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
  >>
  >> BRUNO
  >Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung
  13-course
  >liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
  >Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I
  suspect
  >their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically
  informed.
  >Best
  >Matthew
  >To get on or off this list see list information at
  >[4][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >[5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail
   list

>[1][12]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
[2]Department of Computer Science
[13]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
Assistant Professor in Machine Learning. We are inviting
 applications
for a tenure-track faculty position at the level of assistant
 professor
in the area of machine ...
>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail
 list.
getting
  

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re 
talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in D 
at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
>   ones

I’ve always assumed that someone in the 1600’s and 1700’s must have 
single-strung their lutes for the same reasons some modern players do, but I 
was unaware of any actual evidence for the practice.  Do you know of any?



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Charles Mokotoff]

   I like it! :)

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:23 PM, howard posner
   <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

 > On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <[2]tio...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 > The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and
 not. in D.
 > It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the
 violins.
 Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.   I believe Giardino
 Armonico plays at A 415.   I'm guessing the pitch is lowered on the
 Youtube video we're talking about.   This is commonly done to avoid
 detection by copyright bots.
 Here's a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto,
 sounding in D at A 415:
 [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
 Of course, it's possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Excellent "Thumb Out" playing.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But don't call the lab….I won't be there!

   On Oct 10, 2016, at 6:29 AM, fournierbru <[3]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 Hello all
 I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
 concerto I found on YouTube.
 [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_u9m3
   ghjN0RE&d=CwIBAg&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvn
   WTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95
   RQH564yADdwc&s=eyzmvoYmFQqIEr4RSSZboTqF8wgThEdm_kcTWi0F1c4&e=
 BRUNO
 Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=CwIBAg&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=X7j
   BhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc&s=iucsHDMF4PhmB-2FGtxjS7pz9yIT
   bC9RovK7VGftOOw&e=

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_u9m3ghjN0RE&d=CwIBAg&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc&s=eyzmvoYmFQqIEr4RSSZboTqF8wgThEdm_kcTWi0F1c4&e=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=CwIBAg&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc&s=iucsHDMF4PhmB-2FGtxjS7pz9yITbC9RovK7VGftOOw&e=

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Paolo Busato]

   Am I wrong or in the first movement, sixth bar, second beat "piano",
   they play on the downbeat instead of playing on the upbeat (as also did
   J. Bream on an old recording)?

   Paolo Busato lute maker
   [1]www.busatolutes.com

   ___
   __
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   considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è
   indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati
   di
   eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).  The
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If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email
   and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
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   Il 10/10/2016 17:44, Edward Martin ha scritto:

   I have performed this concerto in the past, a few times.   Firstly, I
   observed his fingerings, and it is apparent that he is playing in C -
   major.   The composition is in D - major, so I think the ensemble
   recorded it a step down from how it was actually composed.
   Actually those fingerings are easier in C major than in D major.   I
   once performed it with an ensemble in D major, but used an alto lute in
   "a", so it had the same relative tuning as he used.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Ron Andrico
   [2]<[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought
 Luca
Pianca's performance was musical.   The rest is supported by
 factual
information.
  
 __
From: Matthew Daillie [3]<[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
To: Ron Andrico
Cc: fournierbru; [[4]3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

  I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes
   differ
  Ron.
  Matthew
  > On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico [5]<[4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
  >
  >Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different
   meaning
  >while I wasn't paying attention.   I should think Luca Pianca
   and
  his
  >Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure
   connection
  with
  >Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.   O'Dette
   recorded
  this
  >music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a
   rather
  stiff
  >sounding band.   McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and
   lovely
  but
  >what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to
   do
  with a
  >microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
  rest of
  >the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
  mentioned.
  >As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by
   the
  old
  >ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  >historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.   The under thumb
   approach
  >ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses,
   circa
  1600,
  >and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  >not using an historically-informed approach.   So unless
  >historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  >placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
  >
  >RA
  >
  __
  >
  >From: [[6]5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [7]<[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf
  >of Matthew Daillie [8]<[7]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
  >To: fournierbru; [[9]8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
  >
  >>On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
  >> Hello all
  >>
  >> I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the
   Vivaldu
  >lute
  >> concerto I found on YouTube.
  >>
  >> [1][9][10]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
  >[2][maxresdefault.jpg]
  >[3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino
   Armonico
  >[10]youtu.be
  >Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2
   Largo 3
  >Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
  >>
 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Bernd Haegemann]

Some years ago I was so lucky as to listen to Luca Pianca on this 
instrument accompanying Chr. Prégardien with Schumann songs.

I can assure you, that was HIP!






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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto 
forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and 
many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this is a 
historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
> 
> 
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
> bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
> in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Sean Smith]

But, … doubled gut frets!

I was struck by how classical guitar-like the fretboard was. Then I kept 
thinking the extension would probably have to be longer on a HIP instrument. 
Now I know. Thanks. Hull and spars notwithstanding, am I right in imagining the 
rigging isn’t very different from a harp guitar?

Sean


On Oct 10, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Jarosław Lipski  wrote:

> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this 
> is a historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>  It’s easier to play and was specially 
> created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
> performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
> people talking about music on this list :)
> Best
> 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Richard Brook]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>> 
>>BRUNO
> 
> Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course liuto 
> forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
> 
> Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect their 
> interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
> 
> Best
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Richard Brook]

Great I thought. Very lute-like, and I’ve heard all the others.

Dick Brook

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>> 
>>BRUNO
> 
> Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course liuto 
> forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
> 
> Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect their 
> interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
> 
> Best
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
Breton.

RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in 
D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
> RT
> 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this 
>> is a historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>  It’s easier to play and was 
>> specially created with guitarists in mind.
>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
>> his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to 
>> see people talking about music on this list :)
>> Best
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
 
 The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
 It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
>>> 
>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
>>> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
>>> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
>>> copyright bots.
>>> 
>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
>>> in D at A 415:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>> 
>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[G. C.]

   I must say, the sound was more guitar than lute like
   G.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:29 PM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

Hello all
I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
 lute
concerto I found on YouTube.
[2]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
BRUNO
Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   2. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in 
D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 22:28, Roman Turovsky wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by 
Luc Breton.

RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, 
but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano 
Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be 
far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see here 
http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and 
was specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, 
and I am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)

Best


On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  
wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  
wrote:


The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and 
not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for 
the violins.
Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
avoid detection by copyright bots.


Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--



Luc Breton used to make lutes for Julian Bream. Probably not a million 
miles away from a liuto forte. HIP?


For those of you who understand French (or enjoy the absurd translations 
of simultaneously generated sub-titles):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WpYuLmUYqk

Best,

Matthew

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of 
RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
 
The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> on a good authority of RT.
> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>> Breton.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
 liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
 Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
 this is a historical instrument - see here 
 http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
  It’s easier to play and was 
 specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
 that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am 
 glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
 Best
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in 
>> D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>> violins.
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the 
> Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid 
> detection by copyright bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
> sounding in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
>> 
>> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Robert Gallagher]

Greetings all.  I’m not even the last guy you would ask for an opinion on 
historical authenticity, but I have several times played this concerto on 
classical guitar, accompanied by both piano and string ensemble.  My read is 
that this is a musically very satisfying performance.  I really enjoyed the way 
that the lute was able to take the principal role as the solo instrument 
should.  It’s true that the single stringing on the instrument gives it a 
certain resonance that approaches the sonority of the guitar, but that poses 
absolutely no problem for me.  On the contrary, that “single-mindedness” 
really helps the lute stand out against a very busy background.  Truth be told, 
though I’m very interested in the historical integrity of an interpretation, 
that aspect is, for me, secondary to the musical satisfaction.  Sometimes the 
historically correct version is the most musically satisfying; other times it 
is not.  But I do feel that the intellectual exercise of authent!
 icity is a secondary concern to the aesthetic satisfaction of a performance, 
one that can make the listener vibrate.  All best, Robert

Robert Gallagher
Tour Béryl BAL 68-3
40, avenue d’Italie
75013 Paris FRANCE

+33 (0) 983 79 70 48

> On 10 Oct 2016, at 23:33, Jarosław Lipski  wrote:
> 
> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of 
> RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>  
> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type 
> of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
> fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
> only mics).
> JL
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>> 
>> on a good authority of RT.
>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
 
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
 Breton.
 RT
 
 On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
> this is a historical instrument - see here 
> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>  It’s easier to play and 
> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
> that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am 
> glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
> Best
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. 
>>> in D.
>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>>> violins.
>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
>> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
>> avoid detection by copyright bots.
>> 
>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
>> sounding in D at A 415:
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>> 
>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
>> one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> --


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent 
is this.


Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. 
Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.


RT

On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--




--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Here's my version:

https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI

I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems about 
single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and esthetic.





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
> this.
> 
> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
> 
> RT
> 

Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group . 
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL


> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
>> of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>> 
>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type 
>> of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
>> fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound 
>> (not only mics).
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
 JL
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
> Breton.
> RT
> 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
>> this is a historical instrument - see here 
>> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>  It’s easier to play and 
>> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
>> that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I 
>> am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
>> Best
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
 
 The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. 
 in D.
 It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
 violins.
>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
>>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
>>> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
>>> avoid detection by copyright bots.
>>> 
>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
>>> sounding in D at A 415:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>> 
>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
>>> one.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> --
 
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

The question is different:

why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar 
using an old fashon Segovian style?



Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT


Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL



On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

There is really nothing Segovian about it.

A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.

RT


On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

The question is different:

why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
using an old fashon Segovian style?


Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
absent is this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT


Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
audience especially when playing in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL



On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
version of RV93 played by Luca here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
influences the overall sound (not only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky 
wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky 
wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html
 It’s easier to
play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music
on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner
 wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi
 wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C,
and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange
for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe
Giardino Armonico plays at A 415. I’m guessing the
pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking
about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same
concerto, sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up
on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

there are plenty of reasons to use a single-strung archlute, the most
obvious of these are the volume, precision and speed that are required
by the
standards of 21st century HIP orchestral playing.
RT


On 10/11/2016 4:48 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT

On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Let's say that his playing is quite irritating for me.

Inviato da iPhone

> Il giorno 11 ott 2016, alle ore 11:46, Roman Turovsky  
> ha scritto:
> 
> 
> There is really nothing Segovian about it.
> 
> A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
> 
> RT
> 
> 
>> On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
>> The question is different:
>> 
>> why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
>> using an old fashon Segovian style?
>> 
>> 
>> Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:
 On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
 
 Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
 absent is this.
 
 Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
 Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
 
 RT
 
>>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
>>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
>>> questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
>>> little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
>>> fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
>>> someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
>>> evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
>>> one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
>>> guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
>>> as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
>>> audience especially when playing in a group .
>>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
>>> there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
>>> no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
>>> Best
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
> version of RV93 played by Luca here
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog
> 
> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
> this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
> noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
> influences the overall sound (not only mics).
> JL
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> on a good authority of RT.
>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky 
 wrote:
 
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
 by Luc Breton.
 RT
 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
> attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
> Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
> however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
> instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html
>  It’s easier to
> play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
> Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
> was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music
> on this list :)
> Best
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C,
>>> and not. in D.
>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange
>>> for the violins.
>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe
>> Giardino Armonico plays at A 415. I’m guessing the
>> pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking
>> about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright
>> bots.
>> 
>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same
>> concerto, sounding in D at A 415:
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>> 
>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up
>> on this one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> --
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

…so now you’re talking ;) It’s all about mixing aesthetics - old and modern. 
Why then do you insist on calling it HIP? 
I played this concerto on several occasions on various historical double strung 
instruments and we never felt any problems with a proper balance between an 
ensemble and a lute. It depends on attitude of all instrumentalists in a group.
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 12:06, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> there are plenty of reasons to use a single-strung archlute, the most obvious 
> of these are the volume, precision and speed that are required by the
> standards of 21st century HIP orchestral playing.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/11/2016 4:48 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
>> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
>> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
>> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
>> for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used 
>> simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it 
>> is much more guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical 
>> education as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by 
>> an audience especially when playing in a group .
>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 
>> 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
>> early music may feel a little bit confused.
>> Best
>> JL
>>> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
>>> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
>>> 
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
 of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
 
 The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this 
 type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca 
 uses fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall 
 sound (not only mics).
 JL
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> on a good authority of RT.
> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>> Breton.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but 
 a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, 
 Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from 
 saying that this is a historical instrument - see here 
 http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
  It’s easier to play and 
 was specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having 
 said that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, 
 and I am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
 Best
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and 
>> not. in D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>> violins.
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done 
> to avoid detection by copyright bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same 
> concerto, sounding in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
> one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Daniel Shoskes]

I love this thread. Started as an open ended question about wadyathinkaboutthis 
and has become a Rorschach test for HIP interpretation. 

First off, the I in HIP is informed, not identical. As our musicological and 
historical lutherie evidence grows, we can try to recreate and imitate aspects 
of original performance within modern limitations (maybe the sound was heard 
differently if half the audience had tertiary syphilis?!). Many of these things 
will impact the sound a lot, others minimally or not at all. If a piece was 
written for a 12 course lute and you play it on a 13 course instrument I don’t 
think you are losing its essence. For solo music I think the sound is quite 
different between single and double strung lutes, for continuo in a large band, 
maybe not so perceptible. Of course gut is a different sound to synthetic but 
if you don’t have the luxury of a humidity controlled hall and you are running 
from the airport to the gig with a 1 hour rehearsal, there’s no point having 
that better gut sound if everything goes out of tune every 5 minutes. 

What clearly is HIP is using the resources at hand for the gig of the day. I’m 
sure Weiss didn’t worry about finding a re-entrant theorbo to play continuo in 
an Italian opera (did he even play those?) when he had his d minor tuned German 
Theorbo at hand. If a continuo player got arthritis and couldn’t twist their 
wrist to play thumb out, I’m sure they did just fine recreating the sound thumb 
under. I’ve heard Sylvan Bergeron play continuo with his single strung archlute 
thumb under in anachronistic rep and it was both highly musical and audible. 
I’m relying on memory of reading concert notes or perhaps a CD booklet but I 
THINK the type of lute Vivaldi had in mind for this concerto is unclear or 
perhaps controversial. Given that it’s mostly single line alternating with 
chords, it’s not a stretch to play it on a Ren or Baroque tuned instrument. 

To the performance, listening with my eyes closed, there are things I like and 
things I don’t. I really don’t like the playing of the bowed strings. I do like 
the improvisational ornaments added to the solo line (although I think there 
were a couple trills starting on the lower note). Listening to some of the 
recordings I own, which of course is not a direct comparison with a live 
performance, I do prefer O’Dette, Lindberg, Lislevand and McFarlane to this, 
both for the solo playing and for the accompaniment but these are great players 
and all the performances (including the video) are good. With my eyes open 
watching the video, the right hand is very guitaristic with the thumb playing 
very un-baroque free stroke and a few finger rest strokes I thought I saw. For 
me, falls in the category of “they didn’t do it that way” but given the single 
strung instrument I don’t think it really changes the sound much. 

Danny

> On Oct 11, 2016, at 6:16 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Let's say that his playing is quite irritating for me.
> 
> Inviato da iPhone
> 
>> Il giorno 11 ott 2016, alle ore 11:46, Roman Turovsky  
>> ha scritto:
>> 
>> 
>> There is really nothing Segovian about it.
>> 
>> A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
>> 
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
>>> The question is different:
>>> 
>>> why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
>>> using an old fashon Segovian style?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:
> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
> absent is this.
> 
> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
> Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
> 
> RT
> 
 Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
 performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
 questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
 little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
 fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
 someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
 evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
 one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
 guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
 as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
 audience especially when playing in a group .
 Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
 there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
 no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
 Best
 JL
 
 
>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
>> version of RV93 p

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Very nicely played Diego, with taste. I like your version. My congratulations ;)
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 09:10, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Here's my version:
> 
> https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI
> 
> I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems about 
> single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and esthetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[jmpoirier2]

   So do I ! Well done Diego !

   Jean-Marie

   Envoyé depuis mon appareil Samsung

    Message d'origine 
   De : Jarosław Lipski 
   Date : 11/10/2016 2:31 PM (GMT+01:00)
   À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
   Very nicely played Diego, with taste. I like your version. My
   congratulations ;)
   JL
   > On 11 Oct 2016, at 09:10, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
   >
   > Here's my version:
   >
   > https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI
   >
   > I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems
   about single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and
   esthetic.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Not true!
"Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc." for his
   solo playing, but when he played with an ensemble, he was forced to be
   disciplined and musical, like it or not. Just listen to his recordings
   of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un Gentlehombre, Ponce's Concerto del Sur,
   and Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Guitar Quintet.
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

   On Oct 11, 2016, at 2:46 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   There is really nothing Segovian about it.
   A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
   RT
   On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

 The question is different:
 why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
 using an old fashon Segovian style?
 Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

 On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
 absent is this.
 Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
 Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov
 without.
 RT

 Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca's
 performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
 questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
 little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
 fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
 someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find any
 evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously,
 then
 one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
 guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical
 education
 as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
 audience especially when playing in a group .
 Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
 there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who
 has
 no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
 Best
 JL

 On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
 version of RV93 played by Luca here
 [3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.
 com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog&d=CwIFaQ&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41
 FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P9
 QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBTy
 y2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U&e=
 <[4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube
 .com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog&d=CwIFaQ&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz4
 1FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P
 9QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBT
 yy2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U&e= >
 The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
 this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
 noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
 influences the overall sound (not only mics).
 JL

 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <[5]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 on a good authority of RT.
 Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
 RT
 On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
 JL

 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <[6]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
 by Luc Breton.
 RT
 On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
 attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
 Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
 however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
 instrument - see here
 [7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__liuto-2Dforte
 .com_ueb-5F00-5Fen.html&d=CwIFaQ&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZF
 k4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P9QDlxbO
 gfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=JQXm-pLZcbeuLRxq6AoMwiz59QL9UAt
 sertUf4NRHJ0&e=
 <[8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__liuto-2Dfort
 e.com_ueb-5F00-5Fen.html&d=CwIFaQ&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZ
 Fk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P9QDlxb
 OgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=JQXm-pLZcbeuLRxq6AoMwiz59QL9UA
 tsertUf4NRHJ0&e= > It’s easier to
 play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
 Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
 was s

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Charles Mokotoff]

   I agree with John, I'd probably take that a little further as I am a
   big fan of Segovia, but lets leave it at that. Segovia was entirely
   capable of playing rhythmically precise when he was in an ensemble. I
   wish some of that carried over to his solo playing, but it was a
   different time.
   I am with the camp that prefers an inherently musical interpretation to
   a necessarily historically accurate one, if you can do both, so much
   the better!

   On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:23 PM, John Mardinly
   <[1]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:

Not true!
 "Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc." for
 his
solo playing, but when he played with an ensemble, he was forced
 to be
disciplined and musical, like it or not. Just listen to his
 recordings
of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un Gentlehombre, Ponce's Concerto del
 Sur,
and Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Guitar Quintet.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On Oct 11, 2016, at 2:46 AM, Roman Turovsky
 <[1][2]r.turov...@gmail.com>
wrote:
There is really nothing Segovian about it.
A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
RT
On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
  The question is different:
  why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped
 guitar
  using an old fashon Segovian style?
  Il 11/10/2016 10:47, JarosÅaw Lipski ha scritto:
  On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky
 <[2][3]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that
 are
  absent is this.
  Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some
 without.
  Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov
  without.
  RT
  Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said
 Luca's
  performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
  questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if
 there is
  little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
  fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
  someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find
 any
  evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used
 simultaneously,
  then
  one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much
 more
  guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical
  education
  as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard
 by an
  audience especially when playing in a group .
  Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out
 that
  there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone
 who
  has
  no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
  Best
  JL
  On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
  Name it as you like, for me itââ¬â¢s a Liuto forte. There is
 another
  version of RV93 played by Luca here
  [3][4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
 3A__www.youtube.
  com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog&d=CwIFaQ&c=
 AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41
  FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3N
 w-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P9
  QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=
 lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBTy
  y2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U&e=
  <[4][5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
 3A__www.youtube
  .com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog&d=CwIFaQ&c=
 AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz4
  1FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3N
 w-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=3P
  9QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0&s=
 lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBT
  yy2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U&e= >
  The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence
 for
  this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard
 rightly
  noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
  influences the overall sound (not only mics).
  JL
  On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky
 <[5][6]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  on a good authority of RT.
  Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
  RT
  On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, JarosÃâaw Lipski wrote:
  Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
  JL
  On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky
 <[6][7]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
  by Luc Breton.
  RT
  On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, JarosÃâaw Lipski wrote:
  The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

My, my…were will it all end? ;)
The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, and 
I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would like 
to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I have 
to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical interpretation 
versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like Luca’s 
performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. Firstly 
there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that it is 
understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones did. On 
the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a cellist begins 
training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught how to bow and 
phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style (be it Renais!
 sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic phraising 
claiming he/she is HIP? I haven’t. And this is due to the fact that lute 
history is a little bit more complicated than gamba’s, and not everything is 
absolutely clear untill the present day, and musicologists can not agree on 
various important details. Some use this  as an excuse for unrestricted 
interpretations. And so far I wouldn’t object. The only problem I have is to 
accept the situation when someone plays  or interprets the way which is not in 
line with widespread knowledge and claims being HIP. “I” should stand for 
INFORMED not IGNORED. So if one doesn’t insist on using this magic label I 
feel happy and can listen solely to musical performance even if it’s a 
Vivaldi's amplified ukulele concerto accompanied by a symphonic orch!
 estra dressed in space outfits ;) If performance is convincing!
 …fantastic! But shouldn’t we use HIP label a little bit more carefully? It 
means “in accordance with a present knowledge”, nothing more, nothing less. 
You do not have to live without all modern conveniences in order to be HIP. You 
cannot enter the same river twice as they say, so don’t even try, but you can 
play in accordance to the available knowledge musically, and give phenomenal 
performances,  which I wish us all :)
JL



> On 11 Oct 2016, at 14:04, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am 
> alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar technique 
> versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an issue.  This 
> argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute fad, and those who 
> are still banging away on this issue are overlooking information in the 
> historical sources.
> 
> For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand from 
> reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos were just as 
> rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted modern compromise. 
>  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro Piccinini and other historical 
> figures did. 
> 
> The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical music.  
> Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences - electronic tuners, 
> photocopied or digital scores, electric lights, indoor plumbing - the idea 
> that we can today decide on narrow parameters that describe historical 
> performance is a rather ludicrous exercise in fantasy.  
> 
> I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in 
> appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort in 
> producing historically integrated programs using the proper instruments.  
> Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some of us have traversed 
> beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and have come to listen with an 
> open mind and judge a performance based upon its musicality.
> 
> RA
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
> for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is 
> used simultaneously, then one may assume i

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 11, 2016, at 4:00 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>   HIP is not
>   necessarily a hard and fast objective measure because whenever the term
>   is mentioned, you must ask the question, "...according to whom?"
> 
>   Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of
>   imagination.  

When O’Dette (whose first name is Paul, by the way) made the recording, much of 
the lute world believed that the lute part should sound at violin pitch, 
requiring a small instrument. It was the latest in HIP.  Paul actually 
concluded that the violin-pitch theory was wrong not long after the recording 
came out.

> Luca's performance incorporated transposition

well, no.

>   and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you without hesitation that
>   historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either.  

Someone should have told Praetorius.

And Joseph Langenwalder, who made the single-strung theorbo in the Vienna 
Kunsthistorisches Museum.

And Pietro Railich, who made the single-strung theorbos in the Brussels Musee 
Instrumental and the Rome Museo degli Strumenti Musicale.  He also made the 
double-strung theorbo in the Hessisches Landesmuseum.

And the 4 anonymous makers of the single-strung theorbos in the Musei e 
Gallerie di Milano, Stockholm Musikhistoriska Museet, Oberosterreichisches 
Landesmuseum and the Burg Seebenstein collection.

And Mattheus Buchenberg (Lisbon Museu da Musica, and Brussels Musee 
Instrumental), Matthias Alban and Magnus Steger (Uneo Gakuen Collection in 
Tokyo), and Wendelio Venere (Musee de la Musique, Paris) and a few others.

There are at least a dozen surviving single-strung theorbos.  Given the small 
size of the theorbo fossil record, that number indicates that single-strung 
theorbos were common, particularly since players could single-string 
instruments that had pegs for double stringing.




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 12 Oct 2016, at 01:00, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Yes, where will it end?  I'll end my commentary by clearing up a few points.  
> I don't believe I even mentioned the term historically-informed performance 
> in my discussion.  HIP is not necessarily a hard and fast objective measure 
> because whenever the term is mentioned, you must ask the question, 
> "...according to whom?"  
> 

Here is a quotation from your original post which triggered this discussion:

Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.



> Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of imagination.  I 
> happen to know McFarlane has pickups installed in his lutes.  Diego C's 
> performance was very nice but he did use some unhistorical variation 
> techniques in his decorated repeats, plus added uncommonly long pauses at the 
> ends of some phrases, plus the unhistorical mega-band.  Luca's performance 
> incorporated transposition and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you 
> without hesitation that historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either. 

See Howard’s comment

> He also used a floating hand position with thumb out.  So does Nigel North.  
> He also used nails.  So did Piccinini, and so does Stephen Stubbs. 
> 

I can’t see anything wrong with a floating hand position. Finger marks on 
original old lutes show that it was used quite often. Nigel doesn’t use 
nails, and this is why his tone is so beautiful.


> I am sorry to say that the guitar-lute controversy lives on whether people 
> would like to admit it or no.


There is no guitar-lute controversy. There is only a style problem which some 
consciously ignore.


>   I don't happen to carry that baggage, but I do take care to inform myself. 

So do I and quite a lot of us

> Taste is indeed subjective but if the idea of HIP is popped out of its ugly 
> socket, it must be applied evenly to all involved in comparison.
> 

No problem, the only thing is that it’s not a very best idea to construct a 
theory on a precedent. And I say again, I don’t want to judge someone’s 
performance, my only concern is that people use HIP term with some care.

JL

> 
> 
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> My, my…were will it all end? ;)
> The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, 
> and I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
> discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would 
> like to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I 
> have to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
> performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical 
> interpretation versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like 
> Luca’s performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. 
> Firstly there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that 
> it is understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones 
> did. On the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a 
> cellist begins training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught 
> how to bow and phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style 
> (be it Rena!
 is!
>  sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
> becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
> educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, mod

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[gary]

Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old fashioned".

Gary

On 2016-10-11 05:04, Ron Andrico wrote:

> As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am
> alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar
> technique versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an
> issue.  This argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute
> fad, and those who are still banging away on this issue are overlooking
> information in the historical sources.
>
> For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand
> from reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos
> were just as rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted
> modern compromise.  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro
> Piccinini and other historical figures did.
>
> The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical
> music.  Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences -
> electronic tuners, photocopied or digital scores, electric lights,
> indoor plumbing - the idea that we can today decide on narrow
> parameters that describe historical performance is a rather ludicrous
> exercise in fantasy.
>
> I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in
> appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort
> in producing historically integrated programs using the proper
> instruments.  Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some
> of us have traversed beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and
> have come to listen with an open mind and judge a performance based
> upon its musicality.
> RA
> __
>
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
> of Jarosław Lipski 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>
> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca's
> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
> questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
> little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
> fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why someone
> uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find any evidence
> for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one may
> assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
> guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
> as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
> audience especially when playing in a group .
> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
> there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
> no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
> Best
> JL
>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is 
>>> another
> version of RV93 played by Luca here
> [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog
> <[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>
> [3][th?id=OVP.Va5d2ebab5ddfdd8da4e4d0cbe68b82da&pid=Api]
> [4]Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca
> www.youtube.com [1]
> Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo
> lutenist Luca Pianca.
> [5][th?id=OVP.Va5d2ebab5ddfdd8da4e4d0cbe68b82da&pid=Api]
> [6]Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca
> www.youtube.com [1]
> Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo
> lutenist Luca Pianca.
>>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
> this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
> noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
> influences the overall sound (not only mics).
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky 
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>>> RT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, JarosÃ...âEURšaw Lipski wrote:
>>>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky 
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
> by Luc Breton.
>>>>>> RT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/10/2

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyY5pB2a0cU



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Robert Gallagher]

I would call that a “thumbs-up” performance.  Wonderful.  Larger orchestra 
than I would have liked but you can always count on Bream to put musicality 
first.  All best, Robert

Robert Gallagher
Tour Béryl BAL 68-3
40, avenue d’Italie
75013 Paris FRANCE

+33 (0) 983 79 70 48

> On 12 Oct 2016, at 12:03, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyY5pB2a0cU
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

Re: Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2016 11:19 CEST, gary  schrieb: 
 
> Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
> that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old fashioned".
> 
> Gary

No. Unless you miss the subtle difference between "old" and "old fashioned".

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Thumb out, nails, nylon strings, metal wound basses, metal frets, bone
   saddle in bridge (Rubio lute), big sound, very hip.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But don't call the lab….I won't be there!

   On Oct 12, 2016, at 3:03 AM, Diego Cantalupi <[3]tio...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.
   [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com
   _watch-3Fv-3DqyY5pB2a0cU&d=CwICbA&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4
   A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3
   _jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw&s=Z7T0l9y-FbAll94HDsczkd6xvDHPOJ7EZcPJoWG
   a5Fc&e=
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=CwICbA&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=Uvw
   pn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw&s=0muR66fCjmmqBcFCkn33nFVP3BN5
   _XesfPp8ZrzDbwU&e=

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DqyY5pB2a0cU&d=CwICbA&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw&s=Z7T0l9y-FbAll94HDsczkd6xvDHPOJ7EZcPJoWGa5Fc&e=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=CwICbA&c=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU&r=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ&m=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw&s=0muR66fCjmmqBcFCkn33nFVP3BN5_XesfPp8ZrzDbwU&e=

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

If thumb out bothers you, you’ve been asleep the last 30 years.

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 9:26 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
>  Thumb out, nails, nylon strings, metal wound basses, metal frets, bone
>   saddle in bridge (Rubio lute), big sound, very hip.




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

   I could not have said it better.

 On Oct 12, 2016, at 3:58 AM, Ralf Mattes  wrote:

 Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
 that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old
 fashioned".
 Gary

 No. Unless you miss the subtle difference between "old" and "old
 fashioned".


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Michael Vollbrecht]

Hello Edward,
I made a quick&dirty tab of that concerto for Ren. Lute; if you still
need it, I can send it to you -once I've found it...

All the Best

Michael Vollbrecht


On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 16:39 +0800, Edward C. Yong wrote:
> Dear Lute Collective,
> 
> Would anyone have the Vivadi Lute Concerto in D major RV 93 in tablature for 
> G tuning?
> 
> Thank you in advance from Singapore!
> 
> Edward C. Yong
> 
> 
> 
> τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
> Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
> 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
> This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Edward C. Yong]

Hi Michael,

Yes please, if you can find it. 

Thank you!

Best,

Edward

> On 15 Apr 2019, at 10:25 PM, Michael Vollbrecht  wrote:
> 
> Hello Edward,
> I made a quick&dirty tab of that concerto for Ren. Lute; if you still
> need it, I can send it to you -once I've found it...
> 
> All the Best
> 
> Michael Vollbrecht
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 16:39 +0800, Edward C. Yong wrote:
>> Dear Lute Collective,
>> 
>> Would anyone have the Vivadi Lute Concerto in D major RV 93 in tablature for 
>> G tuning?
>> 
>> Thank you in advance from Singapore!
>> 
>> Edward C. Yong
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
>> Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
>> 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
>> This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
>