[LUTE] new source for wire strings

[Andrew Hartig]

   Dear lute-friends,
   Though I recognize this list is primarily for gut-strung matters, there
   may be a few of you here who play wire-strung instruments and are not
   on either the cittern.ning.com site or the Dartmouth cittern list. With
   Wayne's permission I am reposting a message sent to both of those
   forums, as this may be of interest to you.  My apologies for any
   duplicates anyone may receive!

   AMH
   
   I am pleased to announce that my new wire string business Andrew Hartig
   Custom Strings is now open. I supply wire strings for period and modern
   instruments, with a special emphasis on handmade twisted strings for
   the lower range of instruments. I am located in the USA but can ship
   anywhere worldwide.

   Please check out my shop on the web at
   [1]http://amhstrings.theaterofmusic.com and let me know what you think.

   There is a special mailing list for news and specials. To subscribe,
   just go to [2]http://theaterofmusic.com/lists/?p=subscribe&id=1.
   Additionally, you can join me on Facebook at
   [3]http://facebook.com/amhstrings where I post more regular news and
   updates of current projects.

   Viva la cetra!
   Andrew
   --

References

   1. http://amhstrings.theaterofmusic.com/
   2. http://theaterofmusic.com/lists/?p=subscribe&id=1
   3. http://facebook.com/amhstrings


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Re: Re: Wire strings

[rosinfiorini]

>They tried to taxonomize us
> all, and put us into little categories. Hey, I'm not a category, I'm what I
> am. I've got my MTV and can relate!
> 
> I rather hope that we both have a bit of humor in our "humor".

yeah, absolutely, Jon:) humour would make us survive the invasion of the 
"machines"--they can program us (in their own image) with zero-s and one-s 
(binary-01), black and white, you name the dichotomy..., but then suddenly 
we'got humour, selfhumour and laughter and that's like a virus in any dumbing 
and rigidifying system-hehe. and you, category--never, anyone should consider 
themselves as a magical being full of endless hidden resourses (like Bart i 
guess), and not an inventory of two three strong points and twothree handicaps 
(Homer..what was his forte, i forgot). the only pitfall of the fluid magical 
tribes was that as they didn't indulge into taxonomizing and making categories 
they got all their knowledge lost in time (like the tears of the replicant from 
Bladerunner..)-their knowledge was first hand accounts passed "live" from 
person to person..
cheers!
r










Hey man, you got it straight. Them old farts writing in those days really
> didn't have a clue. What is this crap about a "wine dark sea" that this guy
> Homer wrote (was his last name Simpson?). What color is wine dark? Yeah,
> they all got it wrong, the Norse and the Greeks. They tried to taxonomize us
> all, and put us into little categories. Hey, I'm not a category, I'm what I
> am. I've got my MTV and can relate!
> 
> I rather hope that we both have a bit of humor in our "humor".
> 
> Best, Jon
> 
> > Scyld guy is the father or the Beowlf-dork. i was reading once through
> this=
> > beoulf text and was just amazed how dull, stiff and farty (selfimportant)
> =
> > the flavour of it. You read anglosaxon texts and you'd think these people
> w=
> > ere colordefective: in celtic texts (like mabingion) you have all these
> fla=
> > res of gold, green, purple, blue with whole range of depths and shining.
> In=
> > the beoulf thing there is like: grey fog, white lightning black
> earth...(h=
> > aha exagerating but something like that. and so much magic in the celtic
> on=
> > es! i have feeling there is something profoundly screwed with the nordic's
> =
> > (saxon included) cultural conditioning.=20
> > It's like, i was reading this most brilliant creator, --Tarkovski, and he
> w=
> > as saying: "look at the sweds, they got it all aranged, they've got it all
> =
> > taxonomized, cleaned, sorted out, they have everything they need yet they
> a=
> > re no happy, no spark, where is the heart the magic..(paraphrazed-him
> talki=
> > ng about the cruel grey of the mondane overtaking the world...within...)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm always happy to reply to snippy snippets, But word for word isn't the
> > > sense of a story. Reading is for meaning, translation is for detail.
> > >=20
> > > "Hw=E6t! We Gardena in geardagum,
> > > =DEeodcyninga, =DErym gefrunon,
> > > hu =F0a =E6=DEelingas ellen fremedon.
> > > Oft Scyld Scefing scea=DEena =DEreatum,
> > >=20
> > > Hear this, the (Danish warriors) of olden days and their kings had
> braver=
> > y
> > > and prowess.
> > > There existed a Scyld Scefing the bane of peoples.
> > >=20
> > > (Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a varient is used in
> the
> > > military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against the English, (can't
> > > remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron meaning shield wall -
> a
> > > rather less organized parallel to the ancient phalanx of the Greeks and
> > > Romans).
> > >=20
> > > BTW, where did you find that font, is it a standard on M$ or an add on?
> A=
> > nd
> > > that 4th line is normally inset in modern format as it is the beginning
> o=
> > f a
> > > new thought.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > 5
> > > monegum m=E6g=DEum, meodosetla ofteah,
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > OK, here we get into the fact that this was one bad lad, he broke up the
> > > bars and messed with the troops.
> > >=20
> > > I'll not claim I can read this without a dictionary, nor can I read old
> > > Gaelic without one. Come to think of it I need a dictionary to read
> Frenc=
> > h
> > > or German (which I didn't need fifty years ago).
> > >=20
> > > The real point was that languages change, but there is a consistancy
> with=
> > in
> > > the change. Chaucer is easy if you know both English and French, plus a
> > > little Briton, he was an early combiner in writing. The Old English of
> > > Beowulf contains may of the root words so one can find constructions (as
> =
> > in
> > > Gardena in the first line) that can be sorted out. I called it Danish
> > > warriors, others have been more literal with "sword Danes". But we see
> th=
> > e
> > > similar root of guard and the nation of Danes (dena). All the Indo
> Europe=
> > an
> > > languages have similar roots, one just needs to sort them out -
> sometimes=
> > a
> > > very difficult process.
> > >=20
> > > Best, Jon
> >

Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> If the Irish had wire technology they would have been supplying English
>> textile industry, but Elisabethan customs authorities had massive
>> problems
>> with Continental wire contraband, so obviously there was no wire in
>> Ireland.
>> 
> I'm getting a little confused, Roman.  First you say the 14th century
> isn't really early,
14th (1300's) is the GENERALLY ACCEPTED century for any (mostly bronze) wire
drawing (mostly for textile industry, i.e. needles, but musical strings
also). This is exactly when wire-stung instrument start proliferating
everywhere.



> then you bring Elizabethan England into it. Why?
Ireland lost its independence to England, but did not become the supplier of
wire to the English textile industry.


> And not only that, but at that time there was a constant state of
> animosity, resentment and fear between England and Ireland, which you
> don't take into account, and there is still the question of the
> willingness to share what could be considered reserved techniques and
> technologies, not just in terms of those within a tradition and those
> outside, but between enemies.
There is no evidence of Brits plundering wire from Ireland.



> how research is done, and the motivations and objectives behind
> gathering information (including what constitutes a valid source and
> even where to look), interpreting it, drawing conclusions from it and
> then publishing and distributing it.






 In an earlier post you mentioned a
> web article concerning the history of drawn wire and later quoted "From
> an encyclopedia" - are these the same source? Maybe I missed your post
> concerning the name of the encyclopedia, and please excuse me if I
> have, but can I ask which encyclopedia, who is the author of the
> article you quote from, and what are the sources drawn upon?
Sorry, I didn't save the URL, I think it was something like
Britannicaonline. 


> friend at the Journal of the History of Technology, who also, as it
> happens, is a blacksmith - I'll drop him a note to ask if he could
> point us to any other useful information.
Do that. The point is whether a BEATEN rather than DRAWN string could be
used for music. I suspect not.
 

> Didn't Stephen Barber take Francis Bacon at his word and string up an
> instrument with silver strings? I seem to remember something about
> this, and about quite favorable results.
> Doc
I wouldn't be surprised, given his predilection for Heavy Metal.
In any event: when "Corinna" sang to her lute, and awoke its "leaden
strings" I, as an individual who can tell poetry from prose, wouldn't take
it too literally.
RT



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

Hey man, you got it straight. Them old farts writing in those days really
didn't have a clue. What is this crap about a "wine dark sea" that this guy
Homer wrote (was his last name Simpson?). What color is wine dark? Yeah,
they all got it wrong, the Norse and the Greeks. They tried to taxonomize us
all, and put us into little categories. Hey, I'm not a category, I'm what I
am. I've got my MTV and can relate!

I rather hope that we both have a bit of humor in our "humor".

Best, Jon

> Scyld guy is the father or the Beowlf-dork. i was reading once through
this=
>  beoulf text and was just amazed how dull, stiff and farty (selfimportant)
=
> the flavour of it. You read anglosaxon texts and you'd think these people
w=
> ere colordefective: in celtic texts (like mabingion) you have all these
fla=
> res of gold, green, purple, blue with whole range of depths and shining.
In=
>  the beoulf thing there is like: grey fog, white lightning black
earth...(h=
> aha exagerating but something like that. and so much magic in the celtic
on=
> es! i have feeling there is something profoundly screwed with the nordic's
=
> (saxon included) cultural conditioning.=20
> It's like, i was reading this most brilliant creator, --Tarkovski, and he
w=
> as saying: "look at the sweds, they got it all aranged, they've got it all
=
> taxonomized, cleaned, sorted out, they have everything they need yet they
a=
> re no happy, no spark, where is the heart the magic..(paraphrazed-him
talki=
> ng about the cruel grey of the mondane overtaking the world...within...)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm always happy to reply to snippy snippets, But word for word isn't the
> > sense of a story. Reading is for meaning, translation is for detail.
> >=20
> > "Hw=E6t! We Gardena in geardagum,
> > =DEeodcyninga, =DErym gefrunon,
> > hu =F0a =E6=DEelingas ellen fremedon.
> > Oft Scyld Scefing scea=DEena =DEreatum,
> >=20
> > Hear this, the (Danish warriors) of olden days and their kings had
braver=
> y
> > and prowess.
> > There existed a Scyld Scefing the bane of peoples.
> >=20
> > (Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a varient is used in
the
> > military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against the English, (can't
> > remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron meaning shield wall -
a
> > rather less organized parallel to the ancient phalanx of the Greeks and
> > Romans).
> >=20
> > BTW, where did you find that font, is it a standard on M$ or an add on?
A=
> nd
> > that 4th line is normally inset in modern format as it is the beginning
o=
> f a
> > new thought.
> >=20
> >=20
> > 5
> > monegum m=E6g=DEum, meodosetla ofteah,
> >=20
> >=20
> > OK, here we get into the fact that this was one bad lad, he broke up the
> > bars and messed with the troops.
> >=20
> > I'll not claim I can read this without a dictionary, nor can I read old
> > Gaelic without one. Come to think of it I need a dictionary to read
Frenc=
> h
> > or German (which I didn't need fifty years ago).
> >=20
> > The real point was that languages change, but there is a consistancy
with=
> in
> > the change. Chaucer is easy if you know both English and French, plus a
> > little Briton, he was an early combiner in writing. The Old English of
> > Beowulf contains may of the root words so one can find constructions (as
=
> in
> > Gardena in the first line) that can be sorted out. I called it Danish
> > warriors, others have been more literal with "sword Danes". But we see
th=
> e
> > similar root of guard and the nation of Danes (dena). All the Indo
Europe=
> an
> > languages have similar roots, one just needs to sort them out -
sometimes=
>  a
> > very difficult process.
> >=20
> > Best, Jon
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >=20
> --
>
> Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20
>
>
> --
>
>
>

Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

I believe I said that the provenance of the "Brian Boru" harp was suspect
and probably apochryphal. Although perhaps not in those terms.
> Pure "mythopoeia".
> I'm afraid "Brian Boru" harp is now dated to 1400's, and has nothing to do
> with Brian Boru.
> RT

I'm not sanguine on your sources for the current dating to the 1400s, but
I'll accept it. In fact I'll even accept that the Irish/Celtic harp was
invented in the 1400s, and was adopted by those primitive natives from the
sophisticated peoples of Continental Europe at that time. Suetonius must
have been inventing when he spoke of the Praetannic Isles as full of people
who sang and told stories instead of being really civilized and conquering
the world. A small people, interested only in their own entertainment.

But weren't they magnificently predictive of future developments when they
sculpted the harps on their memorial stones, harps in the shape and size of
the "Brian Boru". And so inventive when their written records of the eighth
and ninth C. spoke of the kinglets and their harpists lng before it
happened. I commend you to the Anglo Saxon chronical(s), there are several
under that name although the historians usually use the singular as they
take only one of them. Monkish writings, some in Latin and some in early
English, but a story of the times.

These arguments are a bit juvenile, the "test" on Beowulf confirms that. I
have to assume that you scanned and copied something to test me. BTW, the
sort of "funny P" is a shape that is pronounced as a "th". I don't think you
had the font and typed it in. I wish I could remember that "dangerous to
newbies" thing I said a year ago that set you off, but I think it must have
been more dangerous to your ego than to "newbies" as I would never presume
to speak of the play of the lute (yet).

I submit to the list, and to Roman, that I'm going to try to resist the
temptation to respond. Were I of another temperament I might speak of the
rather insulting mentions of the Celtic civilizations (and I can predict the
response from one of a derivative culture - what civilizations). But being a
rather relaxed old man I'll just go out in the backyard and collect more
honey from my bee hives and ferment a bit more of it for my morning mead.
Then I'll go to Home Depot and buy some blue paint, strip off my pants,
paint my face and call it woad, and run around the neighborhood with my
sword. (Can't do any damage, my sword is my ceremonial one with a blunt edge
from my days as a U.S. Naval Officer in the late fifties - it wouldn't cut
my finger).

With my best regards to all of this list, and my thanks to the many who have
helped me in learning a new instrument.

Jon




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Wire strings

[doc rossi]

> If the Irish had wire technology they would have been supplying English
> textile industry, but Elisabethan customs authorities had massive 
> problems
> with Continental wire contraband, so obviously there was no wire in 
> Ireland.
>
I'm getting a little confused, Roman.  First you say the 14th century 
isn't really early, then you bring Elizabethan England into it. Why? 
And not only that, but at that time there was a constant state of 
animosity, resentment and fear between England and Ireland, which you 
don't take into account, and there is still the question of the 
willingness to share what could be considered reserved techniques and 
technologies, not just in terms of those within a tradition and those 
outside, but between enemies. You know how and why history is written - 
how research is done, and the motivations and objectives behind 
gathering information (including what constitutes a valid source and 
even where to look), interpreting it, drawing conclusions from it and 
then publishing and distributing it. In an earlier post you mentioned a 
web article concerning the history of drawn wire and later quoted "From 
an encyclopedia" - are these the same source? Maybe I missed your post 
concerning the name of the encyclopedia, and please excuse me if I 
have, but can I ask which encyclopedia, who is the author of the 
article you quote from, and what are the sources drawn upon? I've got a 
friend at the Journal of the History of Technology, who also, as it 
happens, is a blacksmith - I'll drop him a note to ask if he could 
point us to any other useful information.

Didn't Stephen Barber take Francis Bacon at his word and string up an 
instrument with silver strings? I seem to remember something about 
this, and about quite favorable results.

Doc



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Re: Wire strings

[rosinfiorini]

> (Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a varient is used in the
> military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against the English, (can't
> remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron meaning shield wall - a
> rather less organized parallel to the ancient phalanx of the Greeks and
> Romans).

Scyld guy is the father or the Beowlf-dork. i was reading once through this=
 beoulf text and was just amazed how dull, stiff and farty (selfimportant) =
the flavour of it. You read anglosaxon texts and you'd think these people w=
ere colordefective: in celtic texts (like mabingion) you have all these fla=
res of gold, green, purple, blue with whole range of depths and shining. In=
 the beoulf thing there is like: grey fog, white lightning black earth...(h=
aha exagerating but something like that. and so much magic in the celtic on=
es! i have feeling there is something profoundly screwed with the nordic's =
(saxon included) cultural conditioning.=20
It's like, i was reading this most brilliant creator, --Tarkovski, and he w=
as saying: "look at the sweds, they got it all aranged, they've got it all =
taxonomized, cleaned, sorted out, they have everything they need yet they a=
re no happy, no spark, where is the heart the magic..(paraphrazed-him talki=
ng about the cruel grey of the mondane overtaking the world...within...)






I'm always happy to reply to snippy snippets, But word for word isn't the
> sense of a story. Reading is for meaning, translation is for detail.
>=20
> "Hw=E6t! We Gardena in geardagum,
> =DEeodcyninga, =DErym gefrunon,
> hu =F0a =E6=DEelingas ellen fremedon.
> Oft Scyld Scefing scea=DEena =DEreatum,
>=20
> Hear this, the (Danish warriors) of olden days and their kings had braver=
y
> and prowess.
> There existed a Scyld Scefing the bane of peoples.
>=20
> (Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a varient is used in the
> military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against the English, (can't
> remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron meaning shield wall - a
> rather less organized parallel to the ancient phalanx of the Greeks and
> Romans).
>=20
> BTW, where did you find that font, is it a standard on M$ or an add on? A=
nd
> that 4th line is normally inset in modern format as it is the beginning o=
f a
> new thought.
>=20
>=20
> 5
> monegum m=E6g=DEum, meodosetla ofteah,
>=20
>=20
> OK, here we get into the fact that this was one bad lad, he broke up the
> bars and messed with the troops.
>=20
> I'll not claim I can read this without a dictionary, nor can I read old
> Gaelic without one. Come to think of it I need a dictionary to read Frenc=
h
> or German (which I didn't need fifty years ago).
>=20
> The real point was that languages change, but there is a consistancy with=
in
> the change. Chaucer is easy if you know both English and French, plus a
> little Briton, he was an early combiner in writing. The Old English of
> Beowulf contains may of the root words so one can find constructions (as =
in
> Gardena in the first line) that can be sorted out. I called it Danish
> warriors, others have been more literal with "sword Danes". But we see th=
e
> similar root of guard and the nation of Danes (dena). All the Indo Europe=
an
> languages have similar roots, one just needs to sort them out - sometimes=
 a
> very difficult process.
>=20
> Best, Jon
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>=20
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20


--

Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> Someone has said that wire would have been a desired import if it existed in
> Ireland in Elizabethan times, but that ignores the fact that in the times of
> Good Queen Bess the old Ireland of the Celtic kinglets had disappeared. The
> "Brian Boru" harp, that is sort of preserved, dates back almost 500 years
> before the Queen of Shakespeares time.
Pure "mythopoeia".
I'm afraid "Brian Boru" harp is now dated to 1400's, and has nothing to do
with Brian Boru.
RT



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Wire strings

[bill kilpatrick]

this is getting good ...

 --- Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> I'm always happy to reply to snippy snippets, But
> word for word isn't the
> sense of a story. Reading is for meaning,
> translation is for detail.
> 
> "Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
> Þeodcyninga, Þrym gefrunon,
> hu ða æÞelingas ellen fremedon.
> Oft Scyld Scefing sceaÞena Þreatum,
> 
> Hear this, the (Danish warriors) of olden days and
> their kings had bravery
> and prowess.
> There existed a Scyld Scefing the bane of peoples.
> 
> (Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a
> varient is used in the
> military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against
> the English, (can't
> remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron
> meaning shield wall - a
> rather less organized parallel to the ancient
> phalanx of the Greeks and
> Romans).
> 
> BTW, where did you find that font, is it a standard
> on M$ or an add on? And
> that 4th line is normally inset in modern format as
> it is the beginning of a
> new thought.
> 
> 
> 5
> monegum mægÞum, meodosetla ofteah,
> 
> 
> OK, here we get into the fact that this was one bad
> lad, he broke up the
> bars and messed with the troops.
> 
> I'll not claim I can read this without a dictionary,
> nor can I read old
> Gaelic without one. Come to think of it I need a
> dictionary to read French
> or German (which I didn't need fifty years ago).
> 
> The real point was that languages change, but there
> is a consistancy within
> the change. Chaucer is easy if you know both English
> and French, plus a
> little Briton, he was an early combiner in writing.
> The Old English of
> Beowulf contains may of the root words so one can
> find constructions (as in
> Gardena in the first line) that can be sorted out. I
> called it Danish
> warriors, others have been more literal with "sword
> Danes". But we see the
> similar root of guard and the nation of Danes
> (dena). All the Indo European
> languages have similar roots, one just needs to sort
> them out - sometimes a
> very difficult process.
> 
> Best, Jon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  

=
"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don 
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph 
of San Buenaventura.  go to:  http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm



___ 
Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to 
make your dream a reality. 
Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k

Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

I'm always happy to reply to snippy snippets, But word for word isn't the
sense of a story. Reading is for meaning, translation is for detail.

"Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
Þeodcyninga, Þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æÞelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaÞena Þreatum,

Hear this, the (Danish warriors) of olden days and their kings had bravery
and prowess.
There existed a Scyld Scefing the bane of peoples.

(Scyld is translated into English as shield, and a varient is used in the
military descriptions of the Scot's tactics against the English, (can't
remember how to spell it, something like Skyldron meaning shield wall - a
rather less organized parallel to the ancient phalanx of the Greeks and
Romans).

BTW, where did you find that font, is it a standard on M$ or an add on? And
that 4th line is normally inset in modern format as it is the beginning of a
new thought.


5
monegum mægÞum, meodosetla ofteah,


OK, here we get into the fact that this was one bad lad, he broke up the
bars and messed with the troops.

I'll not claim I can read this without a dictionary, nor can I read old
Gaelic without one. Come to think of it I need a dictionary to read French
or German (which I didn't need fifty years ago).

The real point was that languages change, but there is a consistancy within
the change. Chaucer is easy if you know both English and French, plus a
little Briton, he was an early combiner in writing. The Old English of
Beowulf contains may of the root words so one can find constructions (as in
Gardena in the first line) that can be sorted out. I called it Danish
warriors, others have been more literal with "sword Danes". But we see the
similar root of guard and the nation of Danes (dena). All the Indo European
languages have similar roots, one just needs to sort them out - sometimes a
very difficult process.

Best, Jon






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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

Doc,

Someone has said that wire would have been a desired import if it existed in
Ireland in Elizabethan times, but that ignores the fact that in the times of
Good Queen Bess the old Ireland of the Celtic kinglets had disappeared. The
"Brian Boru" harp, that is sort of preserved, dates back almost 500 years
before the Queen of Shakespeares time. It is unlikely that that "great king"
of the 10th century actually played that harp (for one thing it would have
been a hell of a coincidence that the only harp of the era to last was his,
and for another it is unlikely that the king played a harp - he had a
harpist to do that). The representations of harps on grave monuments go back
to the 9th century in Ireland, and the written texts of the old legends to
the 8th (the legends are of indeterminate origin, but like the Greek legends
probably reflect real events in fantastic story). Like the Norse the ancient
Celts of Ireland have their own separate mythical legends of creation while
much of Continental Europe subscribed to the Greek, Roman or Biblical
legends. Not that they might not have had there own, but by the beginning of
their written records they had been already converted to those of the
conquerers.

I don't believe there was anything sacred or secret in metal working
techniques, just a matter of "you didn't ask". There are lost arts in metal
work, the Damascus blade (although I think it isn't really lost, the antique
guns I have with "Damascus" barrels - a wrap of metal ribbon hammered around
a mandril - remind one of the ancient Japanese art of making Samurai swords,
a technique still practiced today. It is a tedious art, not conducive to
general production. A small block of metal heated and hammered out, then
reheated and folded, then again and again. I'm convinced that the Damascus
blade might have been a similar long process and that the metalurgists who
say they can't duplicate it need to check those few old Japanese who still
make the sword.

Too much, as usual. But it is in support of your comment that things can be
discovered and rediscovered in different places at different time. The
artifacts from the early dwellings in the Hebrides, and the form of those
dwellings, are just as sophisticated as those of the Cradle of Civilization
in the Middle East of the same era. And I'm speaking of 5000 years ago, 3000
BC. The various peoples of the world developed many different things
independently, but as small civilizations were subsumed much of their
culture, unique to them, was lost. It has happened over and over again in
all parts of the world.

Best, Jon

> This may be true, but that doesn't say anything about Ireland, and even
> if there is documentation about how and when it all happened in
> England, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere else,
> possibly using different techniques. Plus, if Ireland, or anywhere else
> for that matter, was primarily an oral culture, and/or the operation
> was considered sacred or secret or reserved for any reason (or
> unimportant or common knowledge), that could explain why no
> documentation has been found.  Anyway, besides a certain anglo-centric
> point of view, the key point in this passage, for me, is "does not
> appear", which is a much more concise way of saying what I've just
> said...
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> 
> Concur, but like all languages of the time that which we call the German
> language was in development. I can read Beowulf in the original
That is a remarkable feat!
Here is a snippet of the original:

"Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
Þeodcyninga,         Þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æÞelingas         ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaÞena Þreatum,

5
monegum mægÞum,         meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden,         he Þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum Þah,
oðÞæt him æghwylc         Þara ymbsittendra

10
ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan.         Þæt wæs god cyning!
ðæm eafera wæs         æfter cenned,
geong in geardum,         Þone god sende
folce to frofre;         fyrenðearfe ongeat

15
Þe hie ær drugon         aldorlease
lange hwile.         Him Þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend,         woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme         (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera         Scedelandum in.."
RT




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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> This may be true, but that doesn't say anything about Ireland, and even
> if there is documentation about how and when it all happened in
> England, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere else,
Canuns/santurs didn't have wire strings until Ottoman times either.



 
> possibly using different techniques. Plus, if Ireland, or anywhere else
> for that matter, was primarily an oral culture, and/or the operation
> was considered sacred or secret or reserved for any reason (or
> unimportant or common knowledge),
If the Irish had wire technology they would have been supplying English
textile industry, but Elisabethan customs authorities had massive problems
with Continental wire contraband, so obviously there was no wire in Ireland.
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[timothy motz]

>If I remember it right, the ancient method of making wire for
jewelry was to cut a strip of metal and twist it into a wire, not to
draw the wire through a die.  There is jewelry made from wire going
as far back as the Bronze Age.  

Tim
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Wire strings
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:39:55 +0100
>
>>>>> The art
>>>>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the
>14th 
>>>>> century,
>>>>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of
>the 
>>>>> 17th
>>
>>This may be true, but that doesn't say anything about Ireland, and
>even 
>>if there is documentation about how and when it all happened in 
>>England, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere else, 
>>possibly using different techniques. Plus, if Ireland, or anywhere
>else 
>>for that matter, was primarily an oral culture, and/or the operation
>
>>was considered sacred or secret or reserved for any reason (or 
>>unimportant or common knowledge), that could explain why no 
>>documentation has been found.  Anyway, besides a certain
>anglo-centric 
>>point of view, the key point in this passage, for me, is "does not 
>>appear", which is a much more concise way of saying what I've just 
>>said...
>>
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>

Re: Wire strings

[doc rossi]

>>> The art
>>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th 
>>> century,
>>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 
>>> 17th

This may be true, but that doesn't say anything about Ireland, and even 
if there is documentation about how and when it all happened in 
England, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere else, 
possibly using different techniques. Plus, if Ireland, or anywhere else 
for that matter, was primarily an oral culture, and/or the operation 
was considered sacred or secret or reserved for any reason (or 
unimportant or common knowledge), that could explain why no 
documentation has been found.  Anyway, besides a certain anglo-centric 
point of view, the key point in this passage, for me, is "does not 
appear", which is a much more concise way of saying what I've just 
said...



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Re: Wire strings

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 10:06 AM 11/28/2004, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>All this DOES NOT PRECLUDE GUT-WIRE COMBINATION rather early, as weaving
>textile grade wire into gut is absolutely conceivable, and this is probably
>what Gerardus Cambrensis saw in Ireland in the 12th century.

..Or (and not really knowing much of harp) even all-wire and all-gut 
strings in combination on the same instrument.  Such combinations were not 
unknown to necked chordophones, even relatively late in the life of "early" 
music.  The early tutors for Neapolitan mandolin of the 1760s prescribed a 
silver-wound silk and brass wire g-g' (in octave), twisted brass d'-d', 
plain brass a'-a', and gut e"-e".  The wire available at that time of 
pre-steel drawn wire just could not consistently be brought to e" without 
breaking at mandolin scale.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> 
> What were the early clavichords (as in Zwolle) strung with? I would assume
> keyboard makers have established the early history of their strings?
Zwolle is 1440, so it could easily strung with anything you like.
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

Well said David,

Leonard makes a point, and a good one. The consitancy of an unstopped string
is less important than in a stopped string. But you are right, it is still
important. A we all know the string vibrates in a complex pattern and the
subdivisions of the vibration make the overtones that produce the tonality.
In fact that very thing is what makes the differences in timbre and tonality
of wind instruments. The suppression or expansion of the upper tones in the
natural series make an oboe sound differently than a clarinet (and don't
pick on me for the double reed versus the single, I don't have time to
detail the differences). There are similar effects in the horns/trumpets in
the shaping of the vibrating tunnel.

Back to the unstopped and stopped strings. The harp and the rest of its
family want consitant strings, as a part of the vibrating string will change
the natural overtone series if it is denser. Assume the string is plucked
near the middle (as it usually is). The primary node will be the tuned pitch
as it is an average, but the secondary nodes will set a different, and
perhaps conflicting, series. But with stopped strings the effect is greater.
The location of the "thick point" changes at its location in the effective
vibrating length (and even may be taken out of play if it is between the
fret and the nut). This can change not only the overtone series but also the
pitch relationships. The lute string, or any other stopped string, has the
characteristics of only that segment between the stop and the bridge. So if
the full string has been tuned to a pitch based on the average density (as
it will be if tuned open) then there will be a variance when it is stopped
high, if it is inconsistant. On the harp this may effect tone and the
harmonic relations between strings, but on the lute it may affect pitch.

And for the non harpists, the overtones are important to us, there a number
of strings and some vibrate sympathetically whether you want it or not. And
as a player of the double strung the effect is magnified.

But I believe Leonard is correct in his implication, there is less need for
uniformity in strings on an unstopped instrument.

Best, Jon

(PS, when no one could make a consistant string did music stop?)


> Leonard Williams wrote:
>
> "...Since the harp strings are not stopped (except on rare occasions),
would
> the string need to be perfectly true? ..."
>
> I haven't given the matter any rigorous thought, but I've assumed any
string
> would have to be fairly uniform throughout its vibrating length to produce
a
> good tone. Otherwise, the subdivisions of the string length which produce
> any particular harmonic might be out of tune with each other.
>
> David Cameron



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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

> (Ps: The word Germany or Teutschland was used as a designation of the
lands
> inhabited by German speaking people long before Germany became a state)

Concur, but like all languages of the time that which we call the German
language was in development. I can read Beowulf in the original, as I can
Chaucerian Middle English, but most German's, French and English of today
can't read their own languages as they were written and spoken at an earlier
time. I am not an acedemic linguist but I think I can safely say that
language changes. English is probably the most mixed up, a combination of
the Celtic ancient Briton, the Teutonic tongues of the Angles and Saxons,
the Danish of Knute, and the newly learned French of William's norsemen of
Normandy (the language of the "English" court for almost two centuries). The
Friesians of the Netherlands speak a Teutonic language that has such
relation to modern English that there is the phrase "good butter and good
cheese is good English and good Friese".

But you make a good point.
Best, Jon



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Re: Wire strings

[ferengizâde daniêl shawqy]

Urmawy unambigiously describes a psaltery with twisted copper-wire strings
in the second half of the 13th cent. c.e. which does not seem to have been a
novelty.
What were the early clavichords (as in Zwolle) strung with? I would assume
keyboard makers have established the early history of their strings?
And btw., the problem of true strings isn't quite as big with an instrument
without frets, i.e. only open strings, is it? I mean, for an Orpharion you
would need far better strings than for a harp.

Best wishes,
danyel

(Ps: The word Germany or Teutschland was used as a designation of the lands
inhabited by German speaking people long before Germany became a state)



- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy
To: LUTE-LIST ; Roman Turovsky
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Wire strings


RT, your sources may be quite accurate as to the invention of drawing wire
in Germany, but that doesn't say anything about other places. (...) Again
you are looking at only European sources.




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re: Wire strings

[David Cameron]

Leonard Williams wrote:

"...Since the harp strings are not stopped (except on rare occasions), would
the string need to be perfectly true? ..."

I haven't given the matter any rigorous thought, but I've assumed any string
would have to be fairly uniform throughout its vibrating length to produce a
good tone. Otherwise, the subdivisions of the string length which produce
any particular harmonic might be out of tune with each other. 

David Cameron



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> This thread started in reference to the possibility of medieval luthiers
> making/using wire strings for _harps_.  Since the harp strings are not stopped
> (except on rare occasions), would the string need to be perfectly true?  Also,
> in a case like this, we're not talking about kms of uniform wire, but perhaps
> a meter at most.
> Of course, Middle Eastern and Indian instruments had wire strings;  where did
> they come from?
> Later on someone had to be making decent bronze (or silver?) wire in Europe to
> fit out those citterns, orpharions and bandoras.
> Leonard Williams
Extremely ductile metals like gold and silver could be beaten into textile
grade wire since Biblical times. Musical strings have to be a lot harder,
and require harder metals like bronze (copper is too ductile).
Drawing bronze into wire started in Europe in the 14th century (1300's),
i.e. before citterns and orpharions came into being.
My understanding is that music grade brass wasn't made until 1700 due to the
difficulties in obtaining pure zinc until then.
The earliest surviving Celtic harp ("Brian Boru's")is from the 15th century,
and the first non-anecdotal evidence of wire strings on harps is from 1507
(clarsach vs. harpsach).
Having said that: 
All this DOES NOT PRECLUDE GUT-WIRE COMBINATION rather early, as weaving
textile grade wire into gut is absolutely conceivable, and this is probably
what Gerardus Cambrensis saw in Ireland in the 12th century.
It is just that PURE METAL HARP STRINGS BEFORE 1300 is just BRARNEY GALORE.
RT



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re: Wire strings

[arckon]

   This thread started in reference to the possibility of medieval luthiers 
making/using wire strings for _harps_.  Since the harp strings are not stopped 
(except on rare occasions), would the string need to be perfectly true?  Also, 
in a case like this, we're not talking about kms of uniform wire, but perhaps a 
meter at most.
Of course, Middle Eastern and Indian instruments had wire strings;  where 
did they come from?
Later on someone had to be making decent bronze (or silver?) wire in Europe 
to fit out those citterns, orpharions and bandoras.

Leonard Williams



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Re: Wire strings

[David Cameron]

I meant to send this to the group:

>To: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron)
>Subject: Re: Wire strings
>
>
>>In your estimate (permitting the possibility of quality sufficient for a
>>musical string), what would it take in terms of man-days to produce 1 meter
>>of 0.3 mm bronze string ?
>>RT
>>-- 
>>http://polyhymnion.org/torban
>>
>
>
>I haven't a clue. I figure it would take me several months of hard work to
develop a reasonably effective procedure for doing this, and then I could
give you some kind of estimate. But, even though I'm a fairly competent
craftsman, I would not pretend that I had acquired more than a fraction of
the skill and knowledge of the stringmaker who supplied Brian Boru's harper.
>
>David Cameron
>



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv


> From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:05:36 -0500
> To: "Bonnie Shaljean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Roman
> Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Wire strings
> 
> then someone might
> have beaten it thinner. The making of metal linkages goes back a long way,
> key bolts for stone structures go back 3000 years. Let us not assume that
> some old boy didn't make wire, whatever that is. (When does a long thin
> piece of metal stop being a bar and become wire? I guess when you can bend
> it and sew something together with it.)
> 
> OK,  "drawn wire". Malleable metals have the ability to take shape when
> drawn through an orifice. That makes for a more consistant wire than a
> beaten one. But early gut strings, made by twisting "cat gut" (whether from
> a sheep or pig, or whatever) were inconsistant in longitudinal density, as
> was beaten wire. 
> In fact I'll make a guess here, I think it was probably
> easier to make a consistant beaten wire than a consistEnt  gut. Put the wire
> under tension and use a light hammer to pound out the thick points.
Take a guitar string and try it.



> But that
> is just a guess as I haven't tried it. But we do know that once the gut is
> twisted the anomalies in the guage (density) will be locked into it.
> 
> I state the thesis that string making was an art, not a science. And that
> making wire strings might have been easier than gut.
If this were less silly it would have been better to refer it to
professional stringmakers. But as it is...
RT






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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632.
>> Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the possibility
>> of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante,
>> Giotto & Co).
>> RT
>> __
>> Roman M. Turovsky
>> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>> 
> 
> It doesn't preclude it. A beaten wire could be lapped to whatever level of
> consistency and accuracy was desired, given reasonable skill of the
> string-maker. 
> It is perfectly feasible to work within dimentional limits of one or two ten
> thousanths of an inch (0.0001"-0.0002", or say 0.002mm-0.004mm) by lapping
> with simply made and crude seeming laps.
In your estimate (permitting the possibility of quality sufficient for a
musical string), what would it take in terms of man-days to produce 1 meter
of 0.3 mm bronze string ?
RT
-- 
http://polyhymnion.org/torban



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> It doesn't matter whether wire strings could have been made a thousand years
> ago, or two or three thousand. It doesn't matter whether the lute came from
> the hunter's bowstring in his cave by stopping the string, or if that was
> the harp by adding more strings to the bow and becoming a "pure musician",
> to be supported for his aesthetic value by the real hunters who got the
> game.
> 
> Actually none of what you say matters, history isn't a perfect document, and
> as I said in another message it isn't always linear. I think we can both

> I feel a bit out of my own depth as a newcomer to the lute. I feel that I
> should be careful in what I say
Should we hold our breath???


> I believe I know you sir, I've known many of you over the years. A lack of
> imagination, and an antagonism to imagination. A fixation on a particular
> skill, perhaps born of imagined deprivation.
Sigh



> You, sir, are the titan of lute
> music, I accept that.
I thank you, even without deserving the honor.


> You have defined yourself as such. Now just let the
> rest of us enjoy the dialogue of learning among ourselves - we are not so
> perfect on lute music, but we may have some other virtues.
It is just not possible to have a dialog with large quantity of blarney.
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> According to Jon Murph the Celts also had jet propulsion and cold fusion
> at
>> least since Roman times.
> 
> Mr. Turovsky,
> 
> You are quite correct. The Celts were giants and a Celt's fart could propel
> him to the moon. 
Must be acorn diet, fueled by pre-noon mead.

 
> An early harpist is one who arises at sun up. Like the early lute it was a
> melody instrument.
Where did you come up with this tid-bit?


> Polyphony came upon the musicians as a development, a
> social and musical development.
And what do you mean by this?


> I respectfully request a truce, and I suggest that some of the responses
> would agree. 
You can't have a truce in absence of a war. You came out of woodwork to one
of the lute lists (John Buckman's I think) with some statement that was so
outlandish, that it was actually dangerous for newbies, and you keep
churning out more and more irrelevant bits of misinformation, neo-Celtic
platitudes and urban mythology. This is insufficient for a war. At least MO
had his facts more or less straight, and knew to hedge his bets most of the
time. 


> Argument is best served when it is valid, and each side can
> accept a point, or even move. I have already done so (even though you may
> detect that my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek).
I think it might be your toe.
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[David Cameron]

>Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632.
>Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the possibility
>of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante,
>Giotto & Co).
>RT
>__
>Roman M. Turovsky
>http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>

It doesn't preclude it. A beaten wire could be lapped to whatever level of
consistency and accuracy was desired, given reasonable skill of the
string-maker. Thousands of amateurs have made model steam and internal
combustion engines, fitting the pistons to cylinders by lapping (serarately,
not by lapping the piston inside the cylinder, which cannot produce the fit
required).

It is perfectly feasible to work within dimentional limits of one or two ten
thousanths of an inch (0.0001"-0.0002", or say 0.002mm-0.004mm) by lapping
with simply made and crude seeming laps.

David Cameron 



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> I do not feel like joining the legions of people who seem to fight with you.
> 
> come on, please.
> 
>> Wire harps WERE in existence in early Ireland and Scotland, whether you like
>> it or not. 
> 
>> The 14th century does qualify was "early".
> 
> 
> they had wires doesn't mean they had wired harps. And wire can very well
> mean what Roman's source says: hammered and rounded plates. So what? Is
> it a religious question?
In a way yes, I seem to remember this technology mentioned (apropos
gold+textiles) already in Exodus.
RT 



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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

Roman,

OK, I've had it. Your snippy replies to David Cameron did the trick. I've
tried to be polite and maintain a conversation.

It doesn't matter whether wire strings could have been made a thousand years
ago, or two or three thousand. It doesn't matter whether the lute came from
the hunter's bowstring in his cave by stopping the string, or if that was
the harp by adding more strings to the bow and becoming a "pure musician",
to be supported for his aesthetic value by the real hunters who got the
game.

Actually none of what you say matters, history isn't a perfect document, and
as I said in another message it isn't always linear. I think we can both
agree that the legendary Golden Age of the Greeks never happened, but it
seems that you see a Golden Age of music, that also never happened.

You answer David's rather strong comment
> > Give it a rest, Roman. You're out of your depth, and have nothing more
to
> > contribute to the discussion, other than a display of ego.
by saying
> Why don't you contribute something? Share your knowledge.

Well, perhaps David has done so, even if by just commenting on your own
contributions.

I feel a bit out of my own depth as a newcomer to the lute. I feel that I
should be careful in what I say and bow to the more senior members of this
list (although I doubt that any are senior to me in either age or time in
music).

A statement of principles for dialogue from one who has a lot of time in
grade. Never denigrate any comment or opinion, but always answer that which
you think to be misinformation. Yet do it politely, and with a full reading
of the message. Don't let your ego get involved, you may be wrong!.

And now I'll close with a provocative comment.

I believe I know you sir, I've known many of you over the years. A lack of
imagination, and an antagonism to imagination. A fixation on a particular
skill, perhaps born of imagined deprivation. You, sir, are the titan of lute
music, I accept that. You have defined yourself as such. Now just let the
rest of us enjoy the dialogue of learning among ourselves - we are not so
perfect on lute music, but we may have some other virtues.

Best, Jon




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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

> According to Jon Murph the Celts also had jet propulsion and cold fusion
at
> least since Roman times.

Mr. Turovsky,

You are quite correct. The Celts were giants and a Celt's fart could propel
him to the moon. Perhaps that is why there are so many Celtic legends. As to
cold fusion those warriors (and bards) lived in a northern clime and cold
fusion was the only way to get warm (and make new Celts). I'm sure the
marital fusion started with cold bodies, but soon warmed up.

I'll not go further, there seems to be some support for my position
(actually the main support for my current position is coming from the chair
I'm sitting in, and it is a rather comfortable one).

For the rest of you, I wonder if Roman times should be written as The Roman
Times, a regular opinion medium promulgated on this list.

Now may I point out that "early" was six AM when I was working, and (being
retired) is now eight AM on a golf day. And on a day when I have nothing
planned, and have stayed up too late typing my silly messages, "early" is
whenever I choose to get up. Early is relative, early rock music comes from
the sixties, early R& B from the thirties (but not noticed until later).
Early Rap is irrelevant, as it isn't music (but if anyone disagrees I'll
agree about the polyrythm).

An early harpist is one who arises at sun up. Like the early lute it was a
melody instrument. Polyphony came upon the musicians as a development, a
social and musical development. To the modern child the Everly Brothers are
early music (and that is a careful choice, they used inverse third harmony
that had been a "no no" since almost the time of Fux).

I respectfully request a truce, and I suggest that some of the responses
would agree. Argument is best served when it is valid, and each side can
accept a point, or even move. I have already done so (even though you may
detect that my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek).

Best, Jon



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Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

Roman,

I have no idea what encylopedia you are using, nor what it speaks of. I
don't even know what wire is in that definition. But chain mail was being
used in the late first millenium, and probably in the middle part of it. And
what is chain mail other than rather thick wire. King Arthur's knights, as
apochryphal as they are, would have worn chain mail rather than "shining
armor" (and lived in thatched cottages or mud huts rather than Camelot). But
beaten wire could yet be used for an instrument. Has it occured to you that
once the process of beating hot metal into shapes had been discovered, and
then taken to beating it into a thick round (for the chain mail, or even
before that for the links holding the plates together) then someone might
have beaten it thinner. The making of metal linkages goes back a long way,
key bolts for stone structures go back 3000 years. Let us not assume that
some old boy didn't make wire, whatever that is. (When does a long thin
piece of metal stop being a bar and become wire? I guess when you can bend
it and sew something together with it.)

OK,  "drawn wire". Malleable metals have the ability to take shape when
drawn through an orifice. That makes for a more consistant wire than a
beaten one. But early gut strings, made by twisting "cat gut" (whether from
a sheep or pig, or whatever) were inconsistant in longitudinal density, as
was beaten wire. In fact I'll make a guess here, I think it was probably
easier to make a consistant beaten wire than a consistant gut. Put the wire
under tension and use a light hammer to pound out the thick points. But that
is just a guess as I haven't tried it. But we do know that once the gut is
twisted the anomalies in the guage (density) will be locked into it.

I state the thesis that string making was an art, not a science. And that
making wire strings might have been easier than gut.

Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bonnie Shaljean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Wire strings


> >From an encyclopedia:
> "History of wire production
> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The
art
> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
> century. "
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>
> > Wire strings were not "deemed an implausibility" on early harps - it was
> > used for centuries.  The Irish had developed the technique of
> > wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as
> > evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but
> > also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry
> > and other historical treasures.  If you read the written accounts of
> > the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both
> > they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

Re: Wire strings

[Jon Murphy]

RT, your sources may be quite accurate as to the invention of drawing wire
in Germany, but that doesn't say anything about other places. And why do you
separate the drawing of "wire" from steel wire? Steel is a form of iron, but
bronze and brass are not. Are you saying that the drawing of any metal for
wire was invented in Germany in the 14th C., or only a specific metal.
Either way you are wrong. Again you are looking at only European sources.
There is evidence, which I can't document tonight as it is late, that metal
wires were used even in the ancient Egyptian "proto harps".

The development of metal technology, and musical instruments, has not been
an entirely linear process. Things are lost, then found again. Or are extant
in one civilization while unknown in another. I stand by my statement that
the early Celtic (and we Celts do prefer the capital letter) harps were wire
strung, although I can't say how they made them. But I'm not going to try to
get the early writings of the old legends out tonight (those writings being
of the 9th and 10th centuries about earlier events).

By the way, you have spoken of my "inexactitude" when I've used a generic
term. May I ask how you can refer to Germany in the 1300s? Neither France
nor Germany, as we know them today, existed then. Dukedoms and states, some
within the HRE and some on the fringes and giving tribute. And some quite
independent. That which we call Germany became a nation in the 19th C..  I
do not accuse you of fallacy, I accept the shorthand of calling it Germany
because it was within the bounds of modern Germany. But you are inexact.

Best, Jon


> Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632.
> Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the
possibility
> of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante,
> Giotto & Co).
> RT



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

Drawing wire was invented in Germany in the mid 1300's, drawn steel 1632.
Beaten wire technology of before the 14th century precludes the possibility
of metal stings on celtic harps until Renaissance (counted from Dante,
Giotto & Co).
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv

> I have a problem with the date 1632 that has been assigned to the process of
> making wire in W. Europe.  Barley's book published in 1596 for Lute and
> Orpharion being a major case in point.  The Orpharion was a metal wire
> strung instrument as was the Cittern.  How does this date square with these
> two instruments?
> 
> VW
> - Original Message -
> From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: Wire strings
> 
> 
>>>> From an encyclopedia:
>>>> "History of wire production
>>>> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which
> were
>>>> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The
> art
>>>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th
> century,
>>>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the
> 17th
>>>> century. "
>>>> RT
>> "Wire drawing required a lot of energy. This requirement could be lessened
>> with lubricant. All types of lubricants were tried with little success. In
>> 1632 the needle-makers, who had developed steel wire, accidentally
>> discovered that human urination applied to the wire left a coating that
>> lubricated the wire and helped smooth the surface. It also helped prevent
>> rusting. The use of this lubricant in wire drawing lasted well into the
> 19th
>> century when a hot lime bath took its place."
>> 
>> "The 17th century brought the use of the waterwheel. The wire draw-bench
>> incorporated crankshafts, tappets, hind spring bars, and bell crank
> levers.
>> All innovations increased the output of wire but tong marks and splice
>> irregularities still required much hand filing and sanding before the
>> finished product could be sold."
>> RT
>> 
>> http://polyhymnion.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Wire strings

[Vance Wood]

I have a problem with the date 1632 that has been assigned to the process of
making wire in W. Europe.  Barley's book published in 1596 for Lute and
Orpharion being a major case in point.  The Orpharion was a metal wire
strung instrument as was the Cittern.  How does this date square with these
two instruments?

VW
- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Wire strings


> >> From an encyclopedia:
> >> "History of wire production
> >> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which
were
> >> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The
art
> >> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th
century,
> >> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the
17th
> >> century. "
> >> RT
> "Wire drawing required a lot of energy. This requirement could be lessened
> with lubricant. All types of lubricants were tried with little success. In
> 1632 the needle-makers, who had developed steel wire, accidentally
> discovered that human urination applied to the wire left a coating that
> lubricated the wire and helped smooth the surface. It also helped prevent
> rusting. The use of this lubricant in wire drawing lasted well into the
19th
> century when a hot lime bath took its place."
>
> "The 17th century brought the use of the waterwheel. The wire draw-bench
> incorporated crankshafts, tappets, hind spring bars, and bell crank
levers.
> All innovations increased the output of wire but tong marks and splice
> irregularities still required much hand filing and sanding before the
> finished product could be sold."
> RT
> 
> http://polyhymnion.org
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> From an encyclopedia:
>> "History of wire production
>> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>> century. "
>> RT
"Wire drawing required a lot of energy. This requirement could be lessened
with lubricant. All types of lubricants were tried with little success. In
1632 the needle-makers, who had developed steel wire, accidentally
discovered that human urination applied to the wire left a coating that
lubricated the wire and helped smooth the surface. It also helped prevent
rusting. The use of this lubricant in wire drawing lasted well into the 19th
century when a hot lime bath took its place."

"The 17th century brought the use of the waterwheel. The wire draw-bench
incorporated crankshafts, tappets, hind spring bars, and bell crank levers.
All innovations increased the output of wire but tong marks and splice
irregularities still required much hand filing and sanding before the
finished product could be sold."
RT

http://polyhymnion.org





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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> From an encyclopedia:
>> "History of wire production
>> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>> century. "
>> RT
> 
> Give it a rest, Roman. You're out of your depth, and have nothing more to
> contribute to the discussion, other than a display of ego.
Why don't you contribute something? Share your knowledge.
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>> From an encyclopedia:
>> "History of wire production
>> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>> century. "
>> RT
> 
> Give it a rest, Roman. You're out of your depth, and have nothing more to
> contribute to the discussion, other than a display of ego.
> David Cameron
You have evidence of drawn wire during the Brian Boru's era?
RT



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Re: Wire strings

[David Cameron]

>From an encyclopedia:
>"History of wire production
>Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>century. "
>RT

Give it a rest, Roman. You're out of your depth, and have nothing more to
contribute to the discussion, other than a display of ego.

David Cameron



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> From an encyclopedia:
> "History of wire production
> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating.
To add:
Drawing is essential to produce a wire that would be sufficiently uniform to
be acoustically true. Chain-mail technology has little value for music.
RT
-- 
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
 



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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

> I do not feel like joining the legions of people who seem to fight with
> you.  
There are about 4 or 5. I wouldn't call them a legion.

> Wire harps WERE in existence in early Ireland and Scotland,
According to Jon Murph the Celts also had jet propulsion and cold fusion at
least since Roman times.

> whether you like it or not.
> The 14th century does qualify was "early".
Do I dispute that? (although I would have used word "earlyish")...>
RT

>>> From an encyclopedia:
>> "History of wire production
>> Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>> then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>> century. "
>> RT
>> __
>> Roman M. Turovsky
>> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Wire strings were not "deemed an implausibility" on early harps - it was
>>> used for centuries.  The Irish had developed the technique of
>>> wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as
>>> evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but
>>> also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry
>>> and other historical treasures.  If you read the written accounts of
>>> the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both
>>> they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 



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Re: Wire strings

["Mathias Rösel"]

"Bonnie Shaljean"  schrieb:
> 
> I do not feel like joining the legions of people who seem to fight with you.

come on, please.

>  Wire harps WERE in existence in early Ireland and Scotland, whether you like 
> it or not. 

> The 14th century does qualify was "early". 


they had wires doesn't mean they had wired harps. And wire can very well
mean what Roman's source says: hammered and rounded plates. So what? Is
it a religious question? Any need for another war?


-- 
Best,Mathias
--

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Re: Wire strings

[Bonnie Shaljean]

I do not feel like joining the legions of people who seem to fight with 
you.  Wire harps WERE in existence in early Ireland and Scotland, 
whether you like it or not.
The 14th century does qualify was "early". 


Roman Turovsky wrote:

>>From an encyclopedia:
>"History of wire production
>Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
>then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
>of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
>and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
>century. "
>RT
>__
>Roman M. Turovsky
>http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>
>  
>
>>Wire strings were not "deemed an implausibility" on early harps - it was
>>used for centuries.  The Irish had developed the technique of
>>wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as
>>evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but
>>also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry
>>and other historical treasures.  If you read the written accounts of
>>the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both
>>they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain. 
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>  
>




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Re: Wire strings

[Roman Turovsky]

>From an encyclopedia:
"History of wire production
Wire was originally made by beating the metal out into plates, which were
then cut into continuous strips, and afterwards rounded by beating. The art
of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th century,
and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 17th
century. "
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv

> Wire strings were not "deemed an implausibility" on early harps - it was
> used for centuries.  The Irish had developed the technique of
> wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as
> evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but
> also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry
> and other historical treasures.  If you read the written accounts of
> the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both
> they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain. 



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Re: Wire strings

[Bonnie Shaljean]

Wire strings were not "deemed an implausibility" on early harps - it was 
used for centuries.  The Irish had developed the technique of  
wire-drawing which not only gave them magnificent-sounding harps (as 
evidenced by the rapt verbal descriptions of their contemporaries) but 
also allowed for the finely-wrought metal work on early Celtic jewelry 
and other historical treasures.  If you read the written accounts of  
the Medieval Irish harpers (who travelled all over the continent) both 
they and their instruments seem to have been king of the mountain.  
Early continental harps used gut (or "sinew") and even horsehair 
(presumably braided or twined in some manner) in contrast with the Irish 
whose metal strings rang on and on.  Good harps spawned good players, 
whose increased demands spawned better harps...

As late as the Belfast Gathering in 1792 the harpers played wire-strung 
instruments, though only one of them was still using fingernails by that 
time.  After a long reign, the old-style wire-strung Irish harp and its 
tradition died out in the years directly following this event, which was 
due more to the nature of music tonality itself: it had become too 
chromatic for the limitations of the old harps, both with regard to 
semi-tone requirements and also the sustained resonances (which clash).  
It was really the changing musical fashions and assorted social 
influences which overtook the metal-strung harps, not that the string 
material itself was unsatisfactory.

Interestingly, James Joyce alludes to a harper plucking wire strings in 
one of his "Dubliners" stories, though by that time (c.1904) the 
wire-strung harp was extinct.  There had been one old man who used to 
busk around Dublin on a wire-strung harp (a pupil of one of the Belfast 
harpers) though he was dead by Joyce's time; but he would have been 
remembered by the local people, and is perhaps the model for the story.    


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>RE wire strings, which were somehow deemed an implausibility on early harps:
>   This is pure conjecture, but I think that by the middle ages craftsmen had 
> been working with various metals long enough to have figured out how to draw 
> it through a die to get wire.  Perhaps the greatest obstacle to making good 
> musical stings would be impurities in the metal which could lead to easy 
> breakage or poor pitch focus.
>When were gimped gut strings first used?  They require wire.
>Any more knowledgeable contributions to this?
>
>Regards,
>Leonard Williams
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: Wire strings (was: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes)

[Roman Turovsky]

I've seen a history of drawn wire somewhere on the web. Search
rec.music.early on Google-groups.
RT
> RE wire strings, which were somehow deemed an implausibility on early harps:
> This is pure conjecture, but I think that by the middle ages craftsmen had
> been working with various metals long enough to have figured out how to draw
> it through a die to get wire.  Perhaps the greatest obstacle to making good
> musical stings would be impurities in the metal which could lead to easy
> breakage or poor pitch focus.
> When were gimped gut strings first used?  They require wire.
> Any more knowledgeable contributions to this?
> 
> Regards,
> Leonard Williams
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Wire strings (was: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes)

[arckon]

RE wire strings, which were somehow deemed an implausibility on early harps:
   This is pure conjecture, but I think that by the middle ages craftsmen had 
been working with various metals long enough to have figured out how to draw it 
through a die to get wire.  Perhaps the greatest obstacle to making good 
musical stings would be impurities in the metal which could lead to easy 
breakage or poor pitch focus.
When were gimped gut strings first used?  They require wire.
Any more knowledgeable contributions to this?

Regards,
Leonard Williams



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