Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Uwe == Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Uwe The resource of checking every 500ms for a change is indeed low, Uwe but I got a complaint about this: Bad programming style, etc. Well, if we are sure it is better technically, we should not let people impress us :) However, I can see that it is a problem for laptop users (drains the battery by not letting cpu go to sleep). Uwe (Yes I don't know why I got this email and not you since I never Uwe used this method in LyXWinInstaller.) Because the way our two installers are presented is very very confusing to people (surprise!). This is why we should really work at having only one. JMarc
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
> "Uwe" == Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Uwe> The resource of checking every 500ms for a change is indeed low, Uwe> but I got a complaint about this: Bad programming style, etc. Well, if we are sure it is better technically, we should not let people impress us :) However, I can see that it is a problem for laptop users (drains the battery by not letting cpu go to sleep). Uwe> (Yes I don't know why I got this email and not you since I never Uwe> used this method in LyXWinInstaller.) Because the way our two installers are presented is very very confusing to people (surprise!). This is why we should really work at having only one. JMarc
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
How do you delete the temporary PDF file after Adobe Reader is closed? If Adobe Reader is closed after LyX is shut down, LyX cannot delete anything anymore and without the pdfview application the file will always remain on the hard drive. Yes of course the file can't be deleted when LyX is closed but still shown in Acrobat. But when you close LyX in this case, you get a message that the preview-file couldn't be deleted from the temp directory. pdfview runs only while Adobe Reader is still open. It's resource use is negligible compared to the reader itself. So it solves both the problems with temporary files that cannot be removed because of the file lock and also makes the update button work just like with DVI and Postscript. The first issue might be a advantage, but not the second one. In my opinion all update buttons should go. There is no need for them. Instead the view button should do both: view when not already opened, update when already viewed. We discussed this some time ago, and we agreed to do this for one of the next versions. The resource of checking every 500ms for a change is indeed low, but I got a complaint about this: Bad programming style, etc. (Yes I don't know why I got this email and not you since I never used this method in LyXWinInstaller.) Note that this also allows you to preview your documents in two windows (and update them at the same time if necessary). With a single view/update button this feature is removed. Personally I think it's quite useful to be able to have two preview windows, especially if you need to check references etc. But I can already do this: I export the document, open it as reference. I only do this for PDFs, I usually use change tracking in DVI and see so also the changes in the output. But perhaps I didn't really understand what you mean and/or never needed this. regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
> How do you delete the temporary PDF file after Adobe Reader is closed? If Adobe Reader is closed > after LyX is shut down, LyX cannot delete anything anymore and without the pdfview application the > file will always remain on the hard drive. Yes of course the file can't be deleted when LyX is closed but still shown in Acrobat. But when you close LyX in this case, you get a message that the preview-file couldn't be deleted from the temp directory. > pdfview runs only while Adobe Reader is still open. It's resource use is negligible compared to > the reader itself. > > So it solves both the problems with temporary files that cannot be removed because of the file > lock and also makes the update button work just like with DVI and Postscript. The first issue might be a advantage, but not the second one. In my opinion all update buttons should go. There is no need for them. Instead the view button should do both: view when not already opened, update when already viewed. We discussed this some time ago, and we agreed to do this for one of the next versions. The resource of checking every 500ms for a change is indeed low, but I got a complaint about this: Bad programming style, etc. (Yes I don't know why I got this email and not you since I never used this method in LyXWinInstaller.) > Note that this also allows you to preview your documents in two windows (and update them at the > same time if necessary). With a single view/update button this feature is removed. Personally I > think it's quite useful to be able to have two preview windows, especially if you need to check > references etc. But I can already do this: I export the document, open it as reference. I only do this for PDFs, I usually use change tracking in DVI and see so also the changes in the output. But perhaps I didn't really understand what you mean and/or never needed this. regards Uwe
Installer issues from [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Hi Bo, thanks for CC:ing me - I'd completely missed this thread - I don't have time to _read_ all messages but I try to check all _subjects_. Anyway, I've now read the thread using gmane, an I'll list some of the issues and my comments below. That might of course provoke further discussion, but we should probably keep that to separate threads. Apologies for the long post in advance... And also, apologies for any feelings I hurt by getting into the discussion in such a late stage. There are no personal attacks indended whatsover in my text below. (Remember, today is not Friday:-) !!! Should the AltInstaller use a special toolbar? I think not. There are alternatives, e.g. pointing users to instructions to customize that for instance tell them how to install a separate toolbar. These instructions would then benefit _all_ users... !!! Bugzilla reports on the installers. I agree with Bo that we should encourage users and developers to use bugzilla. Is there anything today that makes this difficult? Currently there's a single component: windows-installer that Uwe is the contact for. * Should we have two separate components for the installers? Perhaps add a component called: Windows AltInstaller * Is it possible to get CC:ed with issues related to these components by default I'd like to be CC:ed for instance. !!! Process of releasing a new version of the installer Bo wrote: And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a special announcement. I agree that the installer files should be uploaded to ftp.lyx.org, but that seems to have been an oversight on Uwe's behalf. However, I don't understand if Bo thinks there shouldn't be an announcement for a new installer? !!! Closing of instaler issues on bugzilla I can't say what the process should be for closing a report. On one hand I understand the urge to close an issue quickly to get rid of it, but on the other hand that can be considered rude by the reporter. (I'm speaking from my own expierence, it's very discouraging to report something and then have it discarded without any proper discussion). So I suggest we try to discuss the issues first. If bugzilla would CC me automatically on installer issues, it should be issue for me get involved in the discussions. This is all related to the development process for the installers. The situation at the moment is far from ideal, with only one developer with expert knowledge on each installer. There are several issues that need to be discussed in depth here, but for the love of deity (even though I'm not religous), let's postpone this discussion until after 1.5.0. !!! Update/view PDF on Windows Sigh, always a problematic issue it seems. I'm not familiar enough with this topic, so I'll probably be blundering about here... Anyway, regarding the resource usage of Joost's pdfview: I've looked at the code and I agree with Joost that the resources used by this application will be negligble. Arguing aginst using Joost's pdfview for this reason doesn't hold any water for me. We should perhaps discuss this in a fresh thread, there seems to be several open questions here... !!! Hosts for extra installer packages (e.g. dictionaries) The status seems unclear... my take on it is the following: * We should place them on at least two hosts * One of the hosts should be ftp.lyx.org * The installers should use the same hosts * The second host must be accessible (for upload/maintenance) by many developers This also deserves a fresh thread... !!! Functionality and components in the LyX end product Discussion what the result will be of using the different installers is something we do need to discuss. It'll be a difficult discussion though, and I suggest we postpone this until after LyX 1.5.0 has been released. In my opinion, this will be the most difficult issue to resolve when it comes to merging the installers. Best regards, Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Installer issues from [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Hi Bo, thanks for CC:ing me - I'd completely missed this thread - I don't have time to _read_ all messages but I try to check all _subjects_. Anyway, I've now read the thread using gmane, an I'll list some of the issues and my comments below. That might of course provoke further discussion, but we should probably keep that to separate threads. Apologies for the long post in advance... And also, apologies for any feelings I hurt by getting into the discussion in such a late stage. There are no personal attacks indended whatsover in my text below. (Remember, today is not Friday:-) !!! Should the AltInstaller use a special toolbar? I think not. There are alternatives, e.g. pointing users to instructions to customize that for instance tell them how to install a separate toolbar. These instructions would then benefit _all_ users... !!! Bugzilla reports on the installers. I agree with Bo that we should encourage users and developers to use bugzilla. Is there anything today that makes this difficult? Currently there's a single component: windows-installer that Uwe is the contact for. * Should we have two separate components for the installers? Perhaps add a component called: Windows AltInstaller * Is it possible to get CC:ed with issues related to these components by default I'd like to be CC:ed for instance. !!! Process of releasing a new version of the installer Bo wrote: > And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* > way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a > special announcement. I agree that the installer files should be uploaded to ftp.lyx.org, but that seems to have been an oversight on Uwe's behalf. However, I don't understand if Bo thinks there shouldn't be an announcement for a new installer? !!! Closing of instaler issues on bugzilla I can't say what the process should be for closing a report. On one hand I understand the urge to close an issue quickly to get rid of it, but on the other hand that can be considered rude by the reporter. (I'm speaking from my own expierence, it's very discouraging to report something and then have it discarded without any proper discussion). So I suggest we try to discuss the issues first. If bugzilla would CC me automatically on installer issues, it should be issue for me get involved in the discussions. This is all related to the development process for the installers. The situation at the moment is far from ideal, with only one developer with expert knowledge on each installer. There are several issues that need to be discussed in depth here, but for the love of (even though I'm not religous), let's postpone this discussion until after 1.5.0. !!! Update/view PDF on Windows Sigh, always a problematic issue it seems. I'm not familiar enough with this topic, so I'll probably be blundering about here... Anyway, regarding the resource usage of Joost's pdfview: I've looked at the code and I agree with Joost that the resources used by this application will be negligble. Arguing aginst using Joost's pdfview for this reason doesn't hold any water for me. We should perhaps discuss this in a fresh thread, there seems to be several open questions here... !!! Hosts for extra installer packages (e.g. dictionaries) The status seems unclear... my take on it is the following: * We should place them on at least two hosts * One of the hosts should be ftp.lyx.org * The installers should use the same hosts * The second host must be accessible (for upload/maintenance) by many developers This also deserves a fresh thread... !!! Functionality and components in the LyX end product Discussion what the result will be of using the different installers is something we do need to discuss. It'll be a difficult discussion though, and I suggest we postpone this until after LyX 1.5.0 has been released. In my opinion, this will be the most difficult issue to resolve when it comes to merging the installers. Best regards, Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Bo Peng schrieb: What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. I asked about this special topic several times: The Update PDF button doesn't work on Windows due to our view PDF scripts that are needed because popular viewers like Adobe Reader preserves write permissions on PDF's that are shown. I also proposed a solution but this requires too much work and is only something for Lyx 1.6.0. The update button works in the official installer (view creates a new window, update reloads all windows). If you use the same PDF viewing method, there will be no problems. Joost
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
The update button works in the official installer (view creates a new window, update reloads all windows). If you use the same PDF viewing method, there will be no problems. As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. You check every 500ms if the PDF has been chaged by pressing the Update button. That means a program is running all the time and needs resources. In the end of May I spent some time together with a Vista user that emailed me about this topic and we created a new method of viewing the PDFs. This new program is Vista ready and in since RC1. Since then I didn't get a complain and I'm very hapy that this long standing problematic issue is solved. So I don't care any longer about this button. Having one button that automatically decides what to do and where a program is only run when needed and not peranently, is an advantage. The user btw. mentioned that your version is not Vista compatible - but I saw that you changed something there the last days. regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Uwe Stöhr wrote: As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. You check every 500ms if the PDF has been chaged by pressing the Update button. That means a program is running all the time and needs resources. How do you delete the temporary PDF file after Adobe Reader is closed? If Adobe Reader is closed after LyX is shut down, LyX cannot delete anything anymore and without the pdfview application the file will always remain on the hard drive. pdfview runs only while Adobe Reader is still open. It's resource use is negligible compared to the reader itself. So it solves both the problems with temporary files that cannot be removed because of the file lock and also makes the update button work just like with DVI and Postscript. Note that this also allows you to preview your documents in two windows (and update them at the same time if necessary). With a single view/update button this feature is removed. Personally I think it's quite useful to be able to have two preview windows, especially if you need to check references etc. Joost
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Bo Peng schrieb: I am filing bugzilla reports about various installer issues but Uwe seems to be eager to say 'I will not change this', and close the bug reports. No polemic please. I only closed one and explained you why. I see no problem using berlios.de as alternative host when ftp.lyx.org is down. As I told you the files on both servers are identic, so it doesn't matter if they are downloaded from ftp.lyx.org or berlios.de. I see this as advantage to have two different hosts. I still have not found the time to look to your other bug reports. regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. I am filing bugzilla reports about various installer issues but Uwe seems to be eager to say 'I will not change this', and close the bug reports. Using the same MSVC dependency files, the same bundling files, hosting the aspell dictionary files in the same (preferably lyx-related) servers, and using the same URLs in both installers are attempts to merge the two installers. Considering the maintenance cost of updating four hosts, and probability of two hosts fail at the same time, I clearly prefer to host dictionary files on two hosts. If this is agreed upon by Joost and Christian, I expect that the alternative installer be changed accordingly. The same applies to the official installer. The point is, there is no *my* installer so no *I will not change this*. I hope that we can reach some agreements on which applications to bundle, which files are installed so that 1.5.0 users will get the same *end* product no matter which installer is used. Cheers, Bo
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Bo Peng schrieb: What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. I asked about this special topic several times: The Update PDF button doesn't work on Windows due to our view PDF scripts that are needed because popular viewers like Adobe Reader preserves write permissions on PDF's that are shown. I also proposed a solution but this requires too much work and is only something for Lyx 1.6.0. The update button works in the official installer (view creates a new window, update reloads all windows). If you use the same PDF viewing method, there will be no problems. Joost
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
> The update button works in the official installer (view creates a new window, update reloads all > windows). If you use the same PDF viewing method, there will be no problems. As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. You check every 500ms if the PDF has been chaged by pressing the Update button. That means a program is running all the time and needs resources. In the end of May I spent some time together with a Vista user that emailed me about this topic and we created a new method of viewing the PDFs. This new program is Vista ready and in since RC1. Since then I didn't get a complain and I'm very hapy that this long standing problematic issue is solved. So I don't care any longer about this button. Having one button that automatically decides what to do and where a program is only run when needed and not peranently, is an advantage. The user btw. mentioned that your version is not Vista compatible - but I saw that you changed something there the last days. regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Uwe Stöhr wrote: As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. You check every 500ms if the PDF has been chaged by pressing the Update button. That means a program is running all the time and needs resources. How do you delete the temporary PDF file after Adobe Reader is closed? If Adobe Reader is closed after LyX is shut down, LyX cannot delete anything anymore and without the pdfview application the file will always remain on the hard drive. pdfview runs only while Adobe Reader is still open. It's resource use is negligible compared to the reader itself. So it solves both the problems with temporary files that cannot be removed because of the file lock and also makes the update button work just like with DVI and Postscript. Note that this also allows you to preview your documents in two windows (and update them at the same time if necessary). With a single view/update button this feature is removed. Personally I think it's quite useful to be able to have two preview windows, especially if you need to check references etc. Joost
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Bo Peng schrieb: I am filing bugzilla reports about various installer issues but Uwe seems to be eager to say 'I will not change this', and close the bug reports. No polemic please. I only closed one and explained you why. I see no problem using berlios.de as alternative host when ftp.lyx.org is down. As I told you the files on both servers are identic, so it doesn't matter if they are downloaded from ftp.lyx.org or berlios.de. I see this as advantage to have two different hosts. I still have not found the time to look to your other bug reports. regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
> As discussed shere some weeks ago, your solution is not suitable. I am filing bugzilla reports about various installer issues but Uwe seems to be eager to say 'I will not change this', and close the bug reports. Using the same MSVC dependency files, the same bundling files, hosting the aspell dictionary files in the same (preferably lyx-related) servers, and using the same URLs in both installers are attempts to merge the two installers. Considering the maintenance cost of updating four hosts, and probability of two hosts fail at the same time, I clearly prefer to host dictionary files on two hosts. If this is agreed upon by Joost and Christian, I expect that the alternative installer be changed accordingly. The same applies to the official installer. The point is, there is no *my* installer so no *I will not change this*. I hope that we can reach some agreements on which applications to bundle, which files are installed so that 1.5.0 users will get the same *end* product no matter which installer is used. Cheers, Bo
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Author: uwestoehr Date: Thu Jun 28 00:29:46 2007 New Revision: 18919 URL: http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/18919 Log: installer updates Modified: lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/ChangeLog.txt lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Deleted.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Settings.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Updated.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/specials/stdtoolbars.inc What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. Michael
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Bo == Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bo Anyway, to merge two installers in an organized way, I would Bo request that users of the alternative installer register bug Bo reports and feature requests to bugzilla. If there is no complaint Bo against the official installer, I do not know why I should work on Bo it. As a matter of fact, it works perfectly for me. BTW, on Jooost request, I have put a rc2 installer on ftp.devel.lyx.org. JMarc
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a special announcement. Anyway, to merge two installers in an organized way, I would request that users of the alternative installer register bug reports and feature requests to bugzilla. If there is no complaint against the official installer, I do not know why I should work on it. As a matter of fact, it works perfectly for me. Cheers, Bo
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Bo Peng schrieb: What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. I asked about this special topic several times: The Update PDF button doesn't work on Windows due to our view PDF scripts that are needed because popular viewers like Adobe Reader preserves write permissions on PDF's that are shown. I also proposed a solution but this requires too much work and is only something for Lyx 1.6.0. For one test release I used the Update PDF button anyway and got lots of complaints, so I took it out again. I informed the list about this and then Richard tried to find a quick solution with me. As consequience we gave up and I think this one button as only difference doesn't harm. (Pressing the view PDF button on Windows acts as View button or as Update button, depending if the file is already viewed or not.) And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a special announcement. Sorry. I was in a hurry today and wanted to take it from my todo list. JMarc, could you please upload the installers from http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=5117release_id=13014 to ftp.lyx.org thanks in advance and regards Uwe
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Author: uwestoehr Date: Thu Jun 28 00:29:46 2007 New Revision: 18919 URL: http://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/18919 Log: installer updates Modified: lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/ChangeLog.txt lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Deleted.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Settings.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/Updated.nsh lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/AltInstaller/specials/stdtoolbars.inc What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. Michael
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
> "Bo" == Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Bo> Anyway, to merge two installers in an organized way, I would Bo> request that users of the alternative installer register bug Bo> reports and feature requests to bugzilla. If there is no complaint Bo> against the official installer, I do not know why I should work on Bo> it. As a matter of fact, it works perfectly for me. BTW, on Jooost request, I have put a rc2 installer on ftp.devel.lyx.org. JMarc
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a special announcement. Anyway, to merge two installers in an organized way, I would request that users of the alternative installer register bug reports and feature requests to bugzilla. If there is no complaint against the official installer, I do not know why I should work on it. As a matter of fact, it works perfectly for me. Cheers, Bo
Re: [Cvslog] r18919 - in /lyx-devel/trunk/development/Win32/packaging/...
Bo Peng schrieb: What is the reason to keep a special stdtoolbars.inc? I think we agreed on not deviating from a standard LyX distribution. I asked about this special topic several times: The Update PDF button doesn't work on Windows due to our view PDF scripts that are needed because popular viewers like Adobe Reader preserves write permissions on PDF's that are shown. I also proposed a solution but this requires too much work and is only something for Lyx 1.6.0. For one test release I used the Update PDF button anyway and got lots of complaints, so I took it out again. I informed the list about this and then Richard tried to find a quick solution with me. As consequience we gave up and I think this one button as only difference doesn't harm. (Pressing the view PDF button on Windows acts as View button or as Update button, depending if the file is already viewed or not.) And I had hoped that Uwe release this installer in a *standard* way, i.e., ask JMarc to put the files on ftp.lyx.org, without a special announcement. Sorry. I was in a hurry today and wanted to take it from my todo list. JMarc, could you please upload the installers from http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=5117_id=13014 to ftp.lyx.org thanks in advance and regards Uwe
