Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Dear All, I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will I was thinking to create a set of files to download to create a this is really works package. (for localised users) I think this should be modularized. Angus has a quite good installer, may we take it as a base? never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Why not have two installers? A fully bundled version and a standalone version? We may create modules to it. If you want to install Miktex, or other tools by your own, you are allowed to do it. But for those, who are totally new to LyX we should have a set of really working packages/modules to download and install. This means, that we have to package some of needed tools into a separete archive files, and make them available to download. Once you are installing LyX you will be promted what to do. You will have 5 choices, insted of 3: (Angus choices from the installer) - no install - donwload and install separetly (as we have now) - donwload prepackaged module (and install) - install prepackage module (if it was downloaded,for machine without NET connection) - use the installed module So, thus you will have to download 4-5 additional package to install LyX on a newly installed machine. In case of upgrading, you will have to download only the changed package. Python scripts can be eleminated by compiling them to .exe with py2exe. -- Alex mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Am Samstag, 8. Oktober 2005 23:32 schrieb Mike Meyer: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users It doesn't matter whether or not they are willing - they are neither required nor necessary. Most of the tools involved are freely redistributable. So use the Linux model: Let the LyX developers keep doing what they are doing, while third parties bundle LyX with other tools to create a complete bundled application. This works for Linux and for Python; it ought to work for LyX. Excellent suggestion. I neither need nor want a full installer, and would not like if the already scare resources are put into developing one instead of squashing real bugs. If somebody volunteers to create one - fine. But don't underestimate the effort: The existing installer required quite a lot of work from several people (read the list archives). And please be aware of the possibility of bugs: We had the last lyx2lyx problem report that was in reality a problem of a stripped down python only on Thursday. Georg
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Dear All, >> I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting >> for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will I was thinking to create a set of files to download to create a "this is really works" package. (for localised users) I think this should be modularized. Angus has a quite good installer, may we take it as a base? >> never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. >> IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. >> For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle >> version isn't necessary. > > Why not have two installers? A fully bundled version and a standalone > version? We may create modules to it. If you want to install Miktex, or other tools by your own, you are allowed to do it. But for those, who are totally new to LyX we should have a set of "really working" packages/modules to download and install. This means, that we have to package some of needed tools into a separete archive files, and make them available to download. Once you are installing LyX you will be promted what to do. You will have 5 choices, insted of 3: (Angus choices from the installer) - no install - donwload and install separetly (as we have now) - donwload prepackaged module (and install) - install prepackage module (if it was downloaded,for machine without NET connection) - use the installed module So, thus you will have to download 4-5 additional package to install LyX on a newly installed machine. In case of upgrading, you will have to download only the changed package. Python scripts can be eleminated by compiling them to .exe with py2exe. -- Alex mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Am Samstag, 8. Oktober 2005 23:32 schrieb Mike Meyer: > In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed: > > The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, > > or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users > > It doesn't matter whether or not they are willing - they are neither > required nor necessary. > > Most of the tools involved are freely redistributable. So use the > Linux model: Let the LyX developers keep doing what they are doing, > while third parties bundle LyX with other tools to create a complete > bundled application. This works for Linux and for Python; it ought to > work for LyX. Excellent suggestion. I neither need nor want a full installer, and would not like if the already scare resources are put into developing one instead of squashing real bugs. If somebody volunteers to create one - fine. But don't underestimate the effort: The existing installer required quite a lot of work from several people (read the list archives). And please be aware of the possibility of bugs: We had the last lyx2lyx problem report that was in reality a problem of a stripped down python only on Thursday. Georg
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Bo Peng wrote: So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling everything into a single lyx distribution. I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a *really* bad idea. If you're willing to make a 'smart' installer that will go and download stuff, that's fine, but I'd object strongly to a single monolithic installer that took for ever to download because it contains 250MB (MikTeX) of stuff I don't want. In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a waste of time. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: AL Bo Peng wrote: So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling everything into a single lyx distribution. AL I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I AL want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX AL and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a AL *really* bad idea. AL If you're willing to make a 'smart' installer that will go and download AL stuff, that's fine, but I'd object strongly to a single monolithic AL installer that took for ever to download because it contains 250MB AL (MikTeX) of stuff I don't want. AL In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a AL waste of time. Hi, I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of LyX. I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle version... -- Joachim
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Joachim Krieg wrote: AL In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad AL idea and a waste of time. Hi, I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of LyX. I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle version... Hi, Joachim. We already have a Windows installer. It's pretty stupid (I wrote it) but at least it doesn't include anything other than LyX itself. Even so, it's 10MB or so. I'm not adverse to the idea of an intelligent Windows installer that will grab the necessary and extra stuff *that I ask it to* from the web. In other words, a stub installer. However, writing such a thing will involve quite some work and subsequent maintenance. One of the really difficult things in designing such a beast will be to satisfy people like me and to also satisfy ignorant users who, apparently, don't want to think about what they're putting on their machine. If somebody is willing to step up to the mark and take on such a project --- great! -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Joachim Krieg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: AL Bo Peng wrote: So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling everything into a single lyx distribution. AL I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I AL want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX AL and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a AL *really* bad idea. Hi, I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of LyX. I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle version... I'm afraid I agree with Angus on this point. Last time I tried to compile LyX-1.4.0dev, and found out that my MinGW installation was old... I tried the smart downloader now posted at the MinGW site, and it's HORRIBLE. Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ In brief: Angus's LyX distribution seems to me good enough: it checks that the required/optional components are in the system. Luis.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Angus Leeming [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: Joachim Krieg wrote: I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. I'm not adverse to the idea of an intelligent Windows installer that will grab the necessary and extra stuff *that I ask it to* from the web. In other words, a stub installer. However, writing such a thing will involve quite some work and subsequent maintenance. One of the really difficult things in designing such a beast will be to satisfy people like me and to also satisfy ignorant users who, apparently, don't want to think about what they're putting on their machine. You don't need to satisfy both sets of users. That's not the Windows way. In particular experienced users are willing to deal with the pain of Follow the link, find the download site, choose the distribution, download and install it. They aren't in the audience we're trying to attract. We're trying to attract the users used to the huge windows package that includes everything, and lets them choose what they want at install time, and are willing to put up with the disadvantages of that in order to *not* have to deal with multiple products. Giving them that is straightforward (build a directory with everything in it, and preconfigure LyX to find everything in that directory), that's what we should give them. I admit that there's a lot of attraction to the idea of doing it right. That's probably why ever Unix distros tools to do that. And if you do it, every Windows open source developer in the world would probably thank you. But Windows isn't about doing things right - it's about making the user happy. Unless someone steps up who's willing to do it right. LyX should settle for making the user happy. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Luis Rivera wrote: Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ Now THIS is a great idea! In brief: Angus's LyX distribution seems to me good enough: it checks that the required/optional components are in the system. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 12:21:04PM +0200, Joachim Krieg wrote: Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: AL In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a AL waste of time. I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Why not have two installers? A fully bundled version and a standalone version? -- Kayvan A. Sylvan | Proud husband of | Father to my kids: Sylvan Associates, Inc. | Laura Isabella Sylvan | Katherine Yelena (8/8/89) http://sylvan.com/~kayvan | crown of her husband | Robin Gregory (2/28/92)
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Dear all, There are some fundamental differences between Linux and windows. Roughly speaking, Linux is consist of many small tools that are designed to work with each other and windows is consist of large independent applications. That is why, under Linux, we have stdin, stdout, hundreds of small tools and many scripting languages. It is natural for a Linux application like lyx to rely on other tools, but this is not at all the case for windows. Every windows application is supposed to reply only on the OS, not on other applications. Windows users are then used to the process of downloading one big piece of software and installing it. A 20M, even 200M installer is usually not a problem for them. Working out-of-box is natural since an application usually does not depend on the existence of other applications. If lyx scores low at installation and auto-configuration, it will be considered low in quality and less mature, and will not be accepted. There has been no doubt that the current windows installation process is long and has been driven new lyx users away. Bundling is not totally a bad thing. Not only it will save users some installation time, it will save developers and users from many compatibility problems. For example, using the current lyx installer, all users will install the newest python, perl, convert etc but the new versions might not work with lyx. It will also save some configuration work since we know a working program is out there. I have written to MikTex mailing list and their respone about MikTex installation and bundling is that we can bundle a minimal MikTex (23M). When a new package is required, it will be downloaded automatically. A user also has the option of downloading every package after lyx/miktex is installed. Even if Miktex is too large to be bundled (?), python interpreter, convert.exe and aspell.exe should be bundled. These are essential tools that should be there with a working lyx installation. And because they are tools, nobody will complain they are not the latest version as long as they work all right. Although the developers may disagree, I am 100% sure windows users will welcome a bundle version of lyx. (This does not have to conflict with an upgrade version with only lyx). I can set up a poll in lyx-user list if this is still in doubt. The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users Cheers, Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Bo Peng wrote: Although the developers may disagree, I am 100% sure windows users will welcome a bundle version of lyx. (This does not have to conflict with an upgrade version with only lyx). I can set up a poll in lyx-user list if this is still in doubt. Hi, Bo. Have you had a look at Luis's suggestion that we have a look at http://tug.org/protext/ I think that this, or the idea behind it, is a very good idea: explain to the user what he needs and then go and grab it if we wants it. Basically, I think that the current installer (which I wrote BTW) is a step in the right direction. It points the user to the place where he can grab a package, but doesn't actually do anything with it. It could. It could grab the package and install it. There are NSIS installers that do and the source to do so is all available. The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users There's nothing wrong with ignorance. I don't think we should equate it with stupidity. I think that an installer that leads the intelligent user through the installation process in an intelligent way is an intelligent way forward. I don't think downloading vast amounts of stuff that I don't need or want is a good solution. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Angus Leeming wrote: Luis Rivera wrote: Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ Now THIS is a great idea! Second that. I'm not sold on the wisdom of a merged installer, even as an alternative to the sleeker LyX-only installer. IMHO, someone who knows anything at all about LaTeX is likely to have a LaTeX distro installed (or at least have no problem installing one). The target of a merged installer seems to be someone with no LaTeX background. The merged installer might have to do extra hand-holding on the MiKTeX installation (where to put the local texmf tree, setting environment variables, ...) -- it's been a while since I installed MiKTeX, so I forget what I needed to know. The other question is whether someone who is intimidated by the prospect of installing LaTeX would actually be comfortable using LyX. Between ERT and things added to the preamble, I'd say I have to use LaTeX knowledge in at least half the docs I write in LaTeX. (That figure may be skewed a bit high -- I'm a heavy beamer user.) Paul
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users It doesn't matter whether or not they are willing - they are neither required nor necessary. Most of the tools involved are freely redistributable. So use the Linux model: Let the LyX developers keep doing what they are doing, while third parties bundle LyX with other tools to create a complete bundled application. This works for Linux and for Python; it ought to work for LyX. So, if you want such a distribution, you should feel free to create it. It would be nice if it could be hosted at lyx.org, but even that's not a requirement. If you can't, I'll donate space for it at mired.org. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Have you had a look at Luis's suggestion that we have a look at http://tug.org/protext/ I think that is a more complicated case where uses have more than one choices. And more importantly, users need to know what these components are and how to use them. However, I do not think lyx users need to know what python, convert.exe and aspell.exe are, since they will never have to use them by hand. These are implementation details that should be hidden from users. Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
So, if you want such a distribution, you should feel free to create it. I personally do not *want* such a distribution since I am a linux user. I was trying to tell lyx developers that current windows installer is not good enough to attract windows users and suggest that they make the installation process simpler by bundling some tools with lyx. Anyway, it is not possible at this stage to bundle things together. That can happen only after the dependence on mingw and perl are removed. I.e., after configure.m4 is replaced by configure.py. Cheers, Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: I personally do not *want* such a distribution since I am a linux user. I was trying to tell lyx developers that current windows installer is not good enough to attract windows users and suggest that they make the installation process simpler by bundling some tools with lyx. I think it would be better if someone who specialized in Windows did that, rather than distract the LyX developers with it. Anyway, it is not possible at this stage to bundle things together. That can happen only after the dependence on mingw and perl are removed. I.e., after configure.m4 is replaced by configure.py. Why do you think we have to wait? Aren't all those things GPLed? If so, they can be bundled along with everything else. It just makes the bundlge bigger. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Why do you think we have to wait? Aren't all those things GPLed? If so, they can be bundled along with everything else. It just makes the bundlge bigger. Among these components, convert.exe, aspell.exe are small. Python is known to be easily incorporated in any program (there are instructions on their website). Mingw is not big but I am not familiar with it. Perl is the most troublesome since it can be big and I do not know how to separate it. So, you are right. It is better that someone with more experience in windows should to this. Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Bo Peng wrote: > So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling > everything into a single lyx distribution. I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a *really* bad idea. If you're willing to make a 'smart' installer that will go and download stuff, that's fine, but I'd object strongly to a single monolithic installer that took for ever to download because it contains 250MB (MikTeX) of stuff I don't want. In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a waste of time. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: AL> Bo Peng wrote: >> So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling >> everything into a single lyx distribution. AL> I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I AL> want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX AL> and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a AL> *really* bad idea. AL> If you're willing to make a 'smart' installer that will go and download AL> stuff, that's fine, but I'd object strongly to a single monolithic AL> installer that took for ever to download because it contains 250MB AL> (MikTeX) of stuff I don't want. AL> In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a AL> waste of time. Hi, I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of LyX. I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle version isn't necessary. Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle version... -- Joachim
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Joachim Krieg wrote: > AL> In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad > AL> idea and a waste of time. > > Hi, > I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this > mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of > LyX. > I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting > for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will > never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. > IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. > For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle > version isn't necessary. > Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle > version... Hi, Joachim. We already have a Windows installer. It's pretty stupid (I wrote it) but at least it doesn't include anything other than LyX itself. Even so, it's 10MB or so. I'm not adverse to the idea of an "intelligent" Windows installer that will grab the necessary and extra stuff *that I ask it to* from the web. In other words, a stub installer. However, writing such a thing will involve quite some work and subsequent maintenance. One of the really difficult things in designing such a beast will be to satisfy people like me and to also satisfy "ignorant users" who, apparently, don't want to think about what they're putting on their machine. If somebody is willing to step up to the mark and take on such a project --- great! -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Joachim Krieg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: > > AL> Bo Peng wrote: > >> So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling > >> everything into a single lyx distribution. > > AL> I download all these things once, when I first install LyX. Why would I > AL> want to download them again when I upgrade LyX? I'm likely to tweak MikTeX > AL> and the Aspell dictionaries as I use them; overwriting them will be a > AL> *really* bad idea. > > Hi, > I'm only a small user of LyX. I follow the discussions of this > mailinglist because I'm very interested in the development status of > LyX. > I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting > for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will > never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. > IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. > For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle > version isn't necessary. > Maybe it's possible and enough to make from every final a bundle > version... > I'm afraid I agree with Angus on this point. Last time I tried to compile LyX-1.4.0dev, and found out that my MinGW installation was old... I tried the "smart" downloader now posted at the MinGW site, and it's HORRIBLE. Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ In brief: Angus's LyX distribution seems to me good enough: it checks that the required/optional components are in the system. Luis.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Angus Leeming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed: > Joachim Krieg wrote: > > I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting > > for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will > > never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. > > IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. > > For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle > > version isn't necessary. > I'm not adverse to the idea of an "intelligent" Windows installer that will > grab the necessary and extra stuff *that I ask it to* from the web. In > other words, a stub installer. However, writing such a thing will involve > quite some work and subsequent maintenance. > > One of the really difficult things in designing such a beast will be to > satisfy people like me and to also satisfy "ignorant users" who, > apparently, don't want to think about what they're putting on their > machine. You don't need to satisfy both sets of users. That's not the Windows way. In particular experienced users are willing to deal with the pain of "Follow the link, find the download site, choose the distribution, download and install it." They aren't in the audience we're trying to attract. We're trying to attract the users used to the huge windows package that includes everything, and lets them choose what they want at install time, and are willing to put up with the disadvantages of that in order to *not* have to deal with multiple products. Giving them that is straightforward (build a directory with everything in it, and preconfigure LyX to find everything in that directory), that's what we should give them. I admit that there's a lot of attraction to the idea of doing it "right". That's probably why ever Unix distros tools to do that. And if you do it, every Windows open source developer in the world would probably thank you. But Windows isn't about doing things right - it's about making the user happy. Unless someone steps up who's willing to do it right. LyX should settle for making the user happy. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Luis Rivera wrote: > Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for > MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions > and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download > whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ Now THIS is a great idea! > In brief: Angus's LyX distribution seems to me good enough: it checks > that the required/optional components are in the system. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 12:21:04PM +0200, Joachim Krieg wrote: > Saturday, October 8, 2005, 11:54:50 AM, Angus wrote: > > AL> In case you hadn't noticed, I think that this is just a bad idea and a > AL> waste of time. > > I think the idea to make a bundle LyX installer is very interesting > for people who start working with LyX. I know many people who will > never try out LyX because installing it is very difficult for them. > IMHO a bundled version of LyX would make it more easier and popular. > For people who know enough about computers and software a bundle > version isn't necessary. Why not have two installers? A fully bundled version and a standalone version? -- Kayvan A. Sylvan | Proud husband of | Father to my kids: Sylvan Associates, Inc. | Laura Isabella Sylvan | Katherine Yelena (8/8/89) http://sylvan.com/~kayvan | "crown of her husband" | Robin Gregory (2/28/92)
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Dear all, There are some fundamental differences between Linux and windows. Roughly speaking, Linux is consist of many small tools that are designed to work with each other and windows is consist of large independent applications. That is why, under Linux, we have stdin, stdout, hundreds of small tools and many scripting languages. It is natural for a Linux application like lyx to rely on other tools, but this is not at all the case for windows. Every windows application is supposed to reply only on the OS, not on other applications. Windows users are then used to the process of downloading one big piece of software and installing it. A 20M, even 200M installer is usually not a problem for them. Working out-of-box is natural since an application usually does not depend on the existence of other applications. If lyx scores low at installation and auto-configuration, it will be considered low in quality and less mature, and will not be accepted. There has been no doubt that the current windows installation process is long and has been driven new lyx users away. Bundling is not totally a bad thing. Not only it will save users some installation time, it will save developers and users from many compatibility problems. For example, using the current lyx installer, all users will install the newest python, perl, convert etc but the new versions might not work with lyx. It will also save some configuration work since we know a working program is out there. I have written to MikTex mailing list and their respone about MikTex installation and bundling is that we can bundle a minimal MikTex (23M). When a new package is required, it will be downloaded automatically. A user also has the option of downloading every package after lyx/miktex is installed. Even if Miktex is too large to be bundled (?), python interpreter, convert.exe and aspell.exe should be bundled. These are essential tools that should be there with a working lyx installation. And because they are tools, nobody will complain they are not the latest version as long as they work all right. Although the developers may disagree, I am 100% sure windows users will welcome a bundle version of lyx. (This does not have to conflict with an upgrade version with only lyx). I can set up a poll in lyx-user list if this is still in doubt. The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users Cheers, Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Bo Peng wrote: > Although the developers may disagree, I am 100% sure windows users > will welcome a bundle version of lyx. (This does not have to conflict > with an upgrade version with only lyx). I can set up a poll in > lyx-user list if this is still in doubt. Hi, Bo. Have you had a look at Luis's suggestion that we have a look at http://tug.org/protext/ I think that this, or the idea behind it, is a very good idea: explain to the user what he needs and then go and grab it if we wants it. Basically, I think that the current installer (which I wrote BTW) is a step in the right direction. It points the user to the place where he can grab a package, but doesn't actually do anything with it. It could. It could grab the package and install it. There are NSIS installers that do and the source to do so is all available. > The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, > or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users There's nothing wrong with ignorance. I don't think we should equate it with stupidity. I think that an installer that leads the intelligent user through the installation process in an intelligent way is an intelligent way forward. I don't think downloading vast amounts of stuff that I don't need or want is a good solution. -- Angus
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Angus Leeming wrote: Luis Rivera wrote: Perhaps it's easier to do something like the protext distribution for MiKTeX. Basically, you set up a pdf file with installation instructions and hyperlinks, pointing to the places you need to go to download whatever you need. See http://tug.org/protext/ Now THIS is a great idea! Second that. I'm not sold on the wisdom of a merged installer, even as an alternative to the sleeker LyX-only installer. IMHO, someone who knows anything at all about LaTeX is likely to have a LaTeX distro installed (or at least have no problem installing one). The target of a merged installer seems to be someone with no LaTeX background. The merged installer might have to do extra hand-holding on the MiKTeX installation (where to put the local texmf tree, setting environment variables, ...) -- it's been a while since I installed MiKTeX, so I forget what I needed to know. The other question is whether someone who is intimidated by the prospect of installing LaTeX would actually be comfortable using LyX. Between ERT and things added to the preamble, I'd say I have to use LaTeX knowledge in at least half the docs I write in LaTeX. (That figure may be skewed a bit high -- I'm a heavy beamer user.) Paul
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed: > The last question is that whether or not the developers are required, > or willing, to please these 'ignorant' windows users It doesn't matter whether or not they are willing - they are neither required nor necessary. Most of the tools involved are freely redistributable. So use the Linux model: Let the LyX developers keep doing what they are doing, while third parties bundle LyX with other tools to create a complete bundled application. This works for Linux and for Python; it ought to work for LyX. So, if you want such a distribution, you should feel free to create it. It would be nice if it could be hosted at lyx.org, but even that's not a requirement. If you can't, I'll donate space for it at mired.org. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
> Have you had a look at Luis's suggestion that we have a look at > http://tug.org/protext/ I think that is a more complicated case where uses have more than one choices. And more importantly, users need to know what these components are and how to use them. However, I do not think lyx users need to know what python, convert.exe and aspell.exe are, since they will never have to use them by hand. These are implementation details that should be hidden from users. Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
> So, if you want such a distribution, you should feel free to create > it. I personally do not *want* such a distribution since I am a linux user. I was trying to tell lyx developers that current windows installer is not good enough to attract windows users and suggest that they make the installation process simpler by bundling some tools with lyx. Anyway, it is not possible at this stage to bundle things together. That can happen only after the dependence on mingw and perl are removed. I.e., after configure.m4 is replaced by configure.py. Cheers, Bo
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed: > I personally do not *want* such a distribution since I am a linux > user. I was trying to tell lyx developers that current windows > installer is not good enough to attract windows users and suggest that > they make the installation process simpler by bundling some tools with > lyx. I think it would be better if someone who specialized in Windows did that, rather than distract the LyX developers with it. > Anyway, it is not possible at this stage to bundle things together. > That can happen only after the dependence on mingw and perl are > removed. I.e., after configure.m4 is replaced by configure.py. Why do you think we have to wait? Aren't all those things GPLed? If so, they can be bundled along with everything else. It just makes the bundlge bigger. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.
Re: Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
> Why do you think we have to wait? Aren't all those things GPLed? If > so, they can be bundled along with everything else. It just makes the > bundlge bigger. Among these components, convert.exe, aspell.exe are small. Python is known to be easily incorporated in any program (there are instructions on their website). Mingw is not big but I am not familiar with it. Perl is the most troublesome since it can be big and I do not know how to separate it. So, you are right. It is better that someone with more experience in windows should to this. Bo
Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Just checked a few sites: Miktex: http://www.miktex.org/faq/general.html#license The MiKTeX distribution is a conglomerate of many software packages. To the best of our knowledge, all packages meet the requirements of the Debian Free Software Guidelines. This means that MiKTeX may be freely used, copied, modified, and redistributed. ImageMagick: ImageMagick is free software: it is delivered with full source code and can be freely used, copied, modified and distributed. Its license is compatible with the GPL. It runs on all major operating systems. aspell: there is a windows port at http://aspell.net/win32/ amd we can easily add it in. latex2html / miktex seems to be dependent on perl. So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling everything into a single lyx distribution. Bo
Bundle everything into lyx windows installer.
Just checked a few sites: Miktex: http://www.miktex.org/faq/general.html#license The MiKTeX distribution is a conglomerate of many software packages. To the best of our knowledge, all packages meet the requirements of the Debian Free Software Guidelines. This means that MiKTeX may be freely used, copied, modified, and redistributed. ImageMagick: ImageMagick is free software: it is delivered with full source code and can be freely used, copied, modified and distributed. Its license is compatible with the GPL. It runs on all major operating systems. aspell: there is a windows port at http://aspell.net/win32/ amd we can easily add it in. latex2html / miktex seems to be dependent on perl. So, at least there is no license issue that prevents us from bundling everything into a single lyx distribution. Bo
