Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Laurent MARTIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there are some bugs left in the 770 OS which only Nokia can fix (like rebooting every 5 minutes when using WPA for wireless) Are you serious when saying this? The problem occurs on my N770 but I didn't know it was due to WPA. I'm going to disable security (or swap to WEP) to see whether things are going better or not... Did disabling WPA make any difference? I just send some extra questions to Klaasjan about his problem under subject 770 rebooting. I would appreciate if you could also answer them. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/10/07, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope that the general mood would acknowledge, that the 770 won't stop working immediately just because of the fork. It still will do the stuff it does now, which is a lot. And I'll bet that the software on the 770 will see further improvements, although they won't be as big and as great as the stuff that will happen on the N800. That's what I thought when I heard about the N800. There's nothing stopping you from using the 770 as shipped, but since the community-contributed software is one of the key selling points I'd be very disappointed if software support for the 770 begins to decrease for a device which was - until last week - sold as the future of mobile internet. One way of preventing that would be to make it easy for developers to target both environments. Also, there are some bugs left in the 770 OS which only Nokia can fix (like rebooting every 5 minutes when using WPA for wireless). I hope Nokia will make an effort to clean up the worst 770 problems before committing exclusively to n800 development. Klaasjan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
2007/1/10, Dave Neuer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [on the iPhone] Browsing, email, music, video, phone calls, on one device, all will almost certainly work nearly flawlessly. :D -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Klaasjan Brand schrieb: That's what I thought when I heard about the N800. There's nothing stopping you from using the 770 as shipped, but since the community-contributed software is one of the key selling points I'd be very disappointed if software support for the 770 begins to decrease for a device which was - until last week - sold as the future of mobile internet. One way of preventing that would be to make it easy for developers to target both environments. Also, there are some bugs left in the 770 OS which only Nokia can fix (like rebooting every 5 minutes when using WPA for wireless). I hope Nokia will make an effort to clean up the worst 770 problems before committing exclusively to n800 development. Well, I think it's too early to rant about Nokia's step. First everybody complained about RAM and CPU on the 770. Now that the N800 is available, people complain about compatibility with the 770. I'm pretty sure that there are good reason for the compatibility problems, such as more recent libraries on ITOS 2007. If ITOS 2007 uses a Cairo-enabled GTK version (and I guess it does), then there's no point in running ITOS 2007 on the 770. It would be too slow. The fact that many programs for ITOS 2006 can be run on ITOS 2007 shows that there is a certain degree of compatibility. So if a developer wants to target both platforms, it can be done by developing for the 770. As an additional bonus, the applications will be highly optimized and thus run even better on the new platform. My current project, the Obscura Photo Manager, targets both platforms while being optimized to live with the limited resources of the 770. I just don't have a N800 to test it yet (*winks to Nokia* ;) ) Actually, I think scirocco (ITOS 2006.39) was intended to narrow the gap between ITOS 2006 and ITOS 2007 and to fix some bugs on the 770. Have you tried enabling swap on the 770? It makes a huge difference! Out-of-the-blue-crashes vanished completely. I can even run Navicore and Canola side by side with swap space. I'm using WPA with my 770 a lot and it never crashed. So I assume the problem there is not in software. Let's hope that the 770 will still see some more bugfix updates for ITOS 2006. scirocco was a step in the right direction. My guess is that Nokia will continue selling the 770 as a low-budget internet tablet for a reduced price, and as part of bundles such as the Navigation Kit + 770. And I'm pretty sure that nothing beats the 770 as an eBook reader, not even the N800! :D Anyway, this is a developer's mailing list. Why complain about the 770's future when the future is in our hands? ;) Regards, Martin ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Grimme schreef: I'm pretty sure that there are good reason for the compatibility problems, such as more recent libraries on ITOS 2007. If ITOS 2007 uses a Cairo-enabled GTK version (and I guess it does), then there's no point in running ITOS 2007 on the 770. It would be too slow. If you use a recent pango, cairo and gtk+ the speed difference is neglible for most widgets. Have a look at http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/cairo-performance-improvements-on-arm regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFpheOMkyGM64RGpERAvhMAJ4nn/VX+WxagHIY3D3BmaSkujBIpwCeOeF3 YvrVoCkM7QkLc+yKI5ywb00= =EXJi -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Dave Neuer wrote: The prices are almost the same, Except the price of the other is with a 24 month lock-in contract. We don't know the real unsubsidized price. We don't even know if the other allows you to install your _own_ applications or any other minor details. Apple certainly has created something sleek, but we don't know yet for example how well web pages will render on it's 320 by 480 display. Also based on Apple's track record I think their openness will be much less than Nokia's in regards to this device. The whole Darwin joke hasn't exactly shown Apple to really give a shit. You are missing my point. Apple's platform doesn't have to be open, because their device will work exactly the way most people want it to right out of the box. Why shouldn't nokia then do like Apple, create a propiertary platform and make it work exactly like people want it to, right out of the box? This theme seems to be recurring here. Nokia isn't open/free enough, so I'll rather choose a more propiertary PRODUCT. There is far more than enough information and code to create your own, 100% Free rootfilesystem. The few needed binary blobs (wlan driver and bt firmware) are already in the initfs. Yet, what people ask, is new new versions of Opera, flash, etc. Or that the default Nokia PRODUCT does not come with some component that is possible to install yourself (such as ogg playback ). I'm having a hard time of buying the argument of lack of openness, when real issue appears to be that product isn't as solid as it could be. Nokia was counting on the community to provide that level of functionality for them, but won't pay us w/ the only thing the open-source community cares about: code and documentation of hardware. Specifics please? What code/documentation are you missing and what would you create with them? And how are going to do the same things with iPhone? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Also, there are some bugs left in the 770 OS which only Nokia can fix (like rebooting every 5 minutes when using WPA for wireless) Are you serious when saying this? The problem occurs on my N770 but I didn't know it was due to WPA. I'm going to disable security (or swap to WEP) to see whether things are going better or not... -- Laurent, Nantes - France Apple PowerBook 12 Treo 650 (unlocked GSM) Nokia 770 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 22:37 +0200, ext Jani-Matti Hätinen wrote: ... Kimmo Hämäläinen wrote: It would be easy if we would already have the perfect OS API in place :) But the fact is that we have to do improvements and remove some old API at some point. It does not make sense to keep all the old API for ever, because it would 1) generate lots of extra work, 2) make the API hard- to-use for developers. And the longer we keep the old API the harder it becomes to drop it. Basically we thought that after OS2006 it's the last chance to drop some old API. Sorry, what? Ok, so deprecating parts of the API was necessary at this point. That's understandable and happens all the time. But could someone please tell me why that means that new parts of the API can't be used on the 770? Not in unmodified 770, unless the OS2007 will be adapted for it. But you could upgrade many of the packages in 770 with N800 versions and get the new APIs. I think the question was mostly concerning unmodified 770. BR; Kimmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 09:26 -0500, ext Mike Lococo wrote: Ok, so deprecating parts of the API was necessary at this point. That's understandable and happens all the time. But could someone please tell me why that means that new parts of the API can't be used on the 770? Not in unmodified 770, unless the OS2007 will be adapted for it. But you could upgrade many of the packages in 770 with N800 versions and get the new APIs. I think the question was mostly concerning unmodified 770. I think what people are expressing many times over is that they want those upgrades folded into an official software image, to the extent that is technically possible. Having updates available in the dev repos is not sufficient. OS2007 software has been mostly tested with N800 hardware, so I think there is not going to be 'official' OS2007 release for 770 (I think Carlos said that already). However, it's possible that there will be unofficial close-to-OS2007 image for 770 for developers at some point of time (there is some work ongoing, but no promises, since the work is not finished yet). BR, Kimmo Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Well, obviously there will be 500 such developers now :) I just think it should have been 1500 happy users with $100 discounts instead of 500 happy developers with $300 discounts. Those 500 developers are going to create applications which may not work on the devices of every non-developer owner of a n770, and the only reason for that is that Nokia won't open the platform so that any developer with a n770 can update the OS platform for those users. I take issue with this statement. If I get an n800, whether through the dev program or no, all my apps are going to run on both platforms as long as it's feasible for them to do so. Even if somebody handed me an n800 today, it wouldn't change the fact that the 770 is an extremely useful device; I wouldn't just throw it into the closet to collect dust. It will probably actually motivate more development, in my case, because I'll be interested to see how I can utilize the new hardware and features like Xv, and then in turn I'll be interested to see how *those* improvements can be shoehorned onto the 770, which will give me ideas for new improvements targeted at the n800, ad infinitum (or nauseum, your choice). -- Just stop and take your secret journey, you will be a new box. --Leeta http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Levi Bard wrote: Well, obviously there will be 500 such developers now :) I just think it should have been 1500 happy users with $100 discounts instead of 500 happy developers with $300 discounts. Those 500 developers are going to create applications which may not work on the devices of every non-developer owner of a n770, and the only reason for that is that Nokia won't open the platform so that any developer with a n770 can update the OS platform for those users. I take issue with this statement. If I get an n800, whether through the dev program or no, all my apps are going to run on both platforms as long as it's feasible for them to do so. Even if somebody handed me an n800 today, it wouldn't change the fact that the 770 is an extremely useful device; I wouldn't just throw it into the closet to collect dust. It will probably actually motivate more development, in my case, because I'll be interested to see how I can utilize the new hardware and features like Xv, and then in turn I'll be interested to see how *those* improvements can be shoehorned onto the 770, which will give me ideas for new improvements targeted at the n800, ad infinitum (or nauseum, your choice). Exactly right. I was thinking the same thing...If I do end up buying an 800, I'll damn well try to make my apps run on both. And in many cases this shouldn't be too much of a pain. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:46:38 +0100, Martin Grimme wrote: I'm pretty sure that there are good reason for the compatibility problems, such as more recent libraries on ITOS 2007. If ITOS 2007 uses a Cairo-enabled GTK version (and I guess it does), then there's no point in running ITOS 2007 on the 770. It would be too slow. There's a lot of speculation in the above. I have no information about what version of GTK is used on the newer model, but I hope the meme of GTK and cairo are too slow for embedded will die soon. We in the cairo community have been working hard to make a lot of improvements during the cairo 1.3.x snapshots, (and particularly performance improvements for machines without hardware floating-point units). I know that some people in this community are aware of these improvements, (see an earlier reply showing a blog posting with tessellator performance improvements, for example). If people still have test cases that show that cairo (as of 1.3.10 or later) is slowing down GTK+, please send them to me. I'm not really aware of much significant that is left in that area, (or my memory is failing me). -Carl pgpVegB2gmmsm.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Jan 11, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Ty Hoffman wrote: Exactly right. I was thinking the same thing...If I do end up buying an 800, I'll damn well try to make my apps run on both. And in many cases this shouldn't be too much of a pain. It's APIs such as the GPS one that make me fearful. I think that Nokia should divide up things into: 1. APIs changes or replacements that fix bugs or missing features in pre-existing ones. These should _absolutely_ find their way to the 770. 2. New APIs that add extra features, but aren't really hardware related. For example, GPS support was added to the N800. Sure, it's an extra feature, but if it's not on the 770, it's going to start breaking apps. There's no technical reason not to make it work on the 770. 3. APIs to support features that simply won't work well on the 770. If the newer version of flash is more bloated, that can't really be fixed by Nokia. Better video support, if it depends on the hardware in the N800 - we can't really expect that. I won't be all that unhappy if these features don't make their way to the 770. I guess what I'm saying is: If Nokia doesn't back-port features to the 770 simply because of the amount of work needed to maintain two separate trees, I will be unhappy. That's abandoning the 770. If they don't port something because it's harder to make it work on the 770 due to the 770's resource limitations, I can accept that. If I can't run N800 apps that take advantage of the new hardware, I have no problem with that. I expect that - and I actually hope for that, because it means that the new gadget is better. By choosing a semi-open platform, with even some of the core, non- application components not being fully buildable, I think that increases Nokia's responsibilities to that platform, since we depend on them more than on a fully open platform. I love my 770. I consider it a handheld computer, and hope that Nokia treats its software as such, rather than as an embedded telephone. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 20:58 +0100, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: ... Yes, but the question is not only about hacking, it is about end users. Can end users somehow get such system (not called 2007) so developers can ship one application (with Bora functionality) that work both on such N770 and N880? ... Even without any OS update for N770, you could do an application that works both in N770 and N800, if you avoid using some API. I think most N770 applications worked with small or non-existent changes in N800. (You just have to compile it in N770 SDK and test it in N800, too.) BR; Kimmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
ext Urho Konttori [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could this be part of the .install file? One debian for 770 and one for N800. Yes, a .install file can specify individual repositories for different IT OS releases. It could look like this (untested): [install] repo_name = maemo Extras repo_deb = deb http://repository.maemo.org/extras mistral free non-free repo_deb_3 = deb http://repository.maemo.org/extras bora free non-free package= foo When IT OS 2006 handles this file (which is officially unsupported but it still works OK enough), it will use the repo_deb line. IT OS 2007 will use the repo_deb_3 line. Also, there could be a note if no version is suitable for your device. If you omit the needed line, IT OS 2006 will silently do nothing, but IT OS 2007 will give you a Incompatible error message. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Kimmo Hämäläinen wrote: Even without any OS update for N770, you could do an application that works both in N770 and N800, if you avoid using some API. I think most N770 applications worked with small or non-existent changes in N800. (You just have to compile it in N770 SDK and test it in N800, too.) Well I was thinking about _not_ avoiding some API :-) The alarm API as one example. or the one click install thing. Such little things would make perfect sense on N770 (unlike upgraded Flash for example). Basically I'm asking about adding as much API from OS2007 into 2.2 (aka Freezer ;-)) as possible. In fact even 2.1 added some API so let's hope something like this will happen. But I know this in fact means I'm asking for OS2007 :-( I somehow missed the 2.2 pre-announcement, thanks Aaron. I found it here http://www.maemo.org/downloads/maemo_3_compatibility.html now. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 10:09 +0100, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Kimmo Hämäläinen wrote: Even without any OS update for N770, you could do an application that works both in N770 and N800, if you avoid using some API. I think most N770 applications worked with small or non-existent changes in N800. (You just have to compile it in N770 SDK and test it in N800, too.) Well I was thinking about _not_ avoiding some API :-) The alarm API as one example. or the one click install thing. Such little things would make perfect sense on N770 (unlike upgraded Flash for example). Basically I'm asking about adding as much API from OS2007 into 2.2 (aka Freezer ;-)) as possible. In fact even 2.1 added some API so let's hope something like this will happen. But I know this in fact means I'm asking for OS2007 :-( It would be easy if we would already have the perfect OS API in place :) But the fact is that we have to do improvements and remove some old API at some point. It does not make sense to keep all the old API for ever, because it would 1) generate lots of extra work, 2) make the API hard- to-use for developers. And the longer we keep the old API the harder it becomes to drop it. Basically we thought that after OS2006 it's the last chance to drop some old API. After that we'll still be on the mercy of the open-source upstream API changes, of course... BR, Kimmo I somehow missed the 2.2 pre-announcement, thanks Aaron. I found it here http://www.maemo.org/downloads/maemo_3_compatibility.html now. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
I think the 770/N800 break with OS support from ITOS2006 to ITOS2007 is reasonable. The 770 was a first-generation device, really the first of its kind. I hope the N800 doesn't get deprecated in the same way, and I hope Nokia at least considers giving some discount to people buying the N800 that bought a 770 previously. The $99 developer program money could have been used much better in that way, keeping current users. Just my opinion. Ted ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/10/07, Ted Zlatanov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the 770/N800 break with OS support from ITOS2006 to ITOS2007 is reasonable. The 770 was a first-generation device, really the first of its kind. I hope the N800 doesn't get deprecated in the same way, and I hope Nokia at least considers giving some discount to people buying the N800 that bought a 770 previously. What's amazing to me is that someone in charge at Nokia thinks that independant developers are going to flock to develop a market-creating software ecosystem for a $400-$500 half-open platform, especially in light of Apple's recent announcement of the iPhone -- a $500 half-open platform which presumably will ship with Apple-provided killer apps, no magic market creation required. This has seemed to be Nokia's strategic blunder all along; create a pretty compelling hardware platform which does so many things right -- like using standard, user-replaceable batteries -- and then relying on half measures on the software side (half measures meaning not a) creating a compelling software platform for the device internally which was ready for prime time when the device shipped, or b) _really_ empowering the community to develop the platform, in a way that took _full_advantage_ of all the device's capabilities). In short, I think that fully opening the platform (both n770 and n880) now is the only way Nokia's going to be able to compete when the iPhone comes out in 5 or 6 months. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 12:30 -0500, Dave Neuer wrote: ... Well put, thanks. I agreed with every word. Andrew Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 10 Jan 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's amazing to me is that someone in charge at Nokia thinks that independant developers are going to flock to develop a market-creating software ecosystem for a $400-$500 half-open platform, especially in light of Apple's recent announcement of the iPhone -- a $500 half-open platform which presumably will ship with Apple-provided killer apps, no magic market creation required. Well, obviously there will be 500 such developers now :) I just think it should have been 1500 happy users with $100 discounts instead of 500 happy developers with $300 discounts. In short, I think that fully opening the platform (both n770 and n880) now is the only way Nokia's going to be able to compete when the iPhone comes out in 5 or 6 months. You are basing this on the potential impact of an unreleased device? Never mind that the 770/N800 is not a phone, and doesn't require a 2-year Cingular contract as the iPhone will in addition to its $500 price. I agree with the sentiment, but the reasoning doesn't support it IMHO. Ted ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Hi, I think the two devices are rather different and not really competing directly that much against eachother. Also based on Apple's track record I think their openness will be much less than Nokia's in regards to this device. The whole Darwin joke hasn't exactly shown Apple to really give a shit. The N770/N800 team are working constantly on improving the stack both in terms of quality but also in terms of openness. I have to admit to not have followed the iPhone news that closely, but the little I have seen hasn't mentioned providing an open stack at all from Apple. If you have any links with details on Apple's plans in that regard I would love to see them. Christian On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 12:30 -0500, Dave Neuer wrote: On 1/10/07, Ted Zlatanov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the 770/N800 break with OS support from ITOS2006 to ITOS2007 is reasonable. The 770 was a first-generation device, really the first of its kind. I hope the N800 doesn't get deprecated in the same way, and I hope Nokia at least considers giving some discount to people buying the N800 that bought a 770 previously. What's amazing to me is that someone in charge at Nokia thinks that independant developers are going to flock to develop a market-creating software ecosystem for a $400-$500 half-open platform, especially in light of Apple's recent announcement of the iPhone -- a $500 half-open platform which presumably will ship with Apple-provided killer apps, no magic market creation required. This has seemed to be Nokia's strategic blunder all along; create a pretty compelling hardware platform which does so many things right -- like using standard, user-replaceable batteries -- and then relying on half measures on the software side (half measures meaning not a) creating a compelling software platform for the device internally which was ready for prime time when the device shipped, or b) _really_ empowering the community to develop the platform, in a way that took _full_advantage_ of all the device's capabilities). In short, I think that fully opening the platform (both n770 and n880) now is the only way Nokia's going to be able to compete when the iPhone comes out in 5 or 6 months. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Hi, An interesting thread about the iPhone arch http://lists.immunitysec.com/pipermail/dailydave/2007-January/003932.html []'s Ian -- .''`. : :' : `. `'` `- Orgulhoso ser MetaRecicleiro http://manaus.metareciclagem.org/ http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:45 +0100, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote: I think the two devices are rather different and not really competing directly that much against eachother. Also based on Apple's track record I think their openness will be much less than Nokia's in regards to this device. The whole Darwin joke hasn't exactly shown Apple to really give a shit. Even though the 'half-open platform' of Apple was mentioned, I think the important part was 'which presumably will ship with Apple-provided killer apps, no magic market creation required'. I don't see Apple having problems selling their iPhone in the near future. And Nokia telling people after ~12 months that their N770 is basically not supported any longer is not gonna drive anyone to recommend the platform and devices, is it? I, for one, am rather disappointed by this whole affair, and I will stop showing the device to people in my Linux courses as an example for an open development platform, managed by a big, but responsibly acting corporation. Because this somehow doesn't feel right any longer (and actually didn't for some time, after too many excuses). Kind regards, WK ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
I am quite disappointed too. If 770 software would be fully open sourced, there would be no problem. But I feel like i've been cheated, and now I'm trapped with a device with unsupported software (opera, flash, etc.), and I guess main 770 developers will move to N800 attracted by the 99€ offer. On 1/10/07, Wolfgang Karall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:45 +0100, Christian F.K. Schaller wrote: I think the two devices are rather different and not really competing directly that much against eachother. Also based on Apple's track record I think their openness will be much less than Nokia's in regards to this device. The whole Darwin joke hasn't exactly shown Apple to really give a shit. Even though the 'half-open platform' of Apple was mentioned, I think the important part was 'which presumably will ship with Apple-provided killer apps, no magic market creation required'. I don't see Apple having problems selling their iPhone in the near future. And Nokia telling people after ~12 months that their N770 is basically not supported any longer is not gonna drive anyone to recommend the platform and devices, is it? I, for one, am rather disappointed by this whole affair, and I will stop showing the device to people in my Linux courses as an example for an open development platform, managed by a big, but responsibly acting corporation. Because this somehow doesn't feel right any longer (and actually didn't for some time, after too many excuses). Kind regards, WK ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- (:===:) Alvaro J. Iradier Muro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/10/07, Ted Zlatanov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, obviously there will be 500 such developers now :) I just think it should have been 1500 happy users with $100 discounts instead of 500 happy developers with $300 discounts. Those 500 developers are going to create applications which may not work on the devices of every non-developer owner of a n770, and the only reason for that is that Nokia won't open the platform so that any developer with a n770 can update the OS platform for those users. In short, I think that fully opening the platform (both n770 and n880) now is the only way Nokia's going to be able to compete when the iPhone comes out in 5 or 6 months. You are basing this on the potential impact of an unreleased device? You are kidding, right? Yes, the device is unreleased. Does anyone actually expect that it won't be phenomenally popular? Never mind that the 770/N800 is not a phone, and doesn't require a 2-year Cingular contract as the iPhone will in addition to its $500 price. I agree with the sentiment, but the reasoning doesn't support it IMHO. How's this for reasoning: 1) Anyone who wants to buy a phone in the US is going to have to sign a 2-year contract with their phone provider _anyway_, and if you don't switch providers the contract is meaningless (it's not officially waived, just not enforced, e.g. if you want to by a new phone or change your plan later, through the same provider). I don't think those terms should be legal, because their only purpose is to anti-competetively lock in users, but my point is that there doesn't seem to be any big outcry from consumers and the practice hasn't adversely affected anyone's bottom line that I can see; 2) The device will almost certainly be _far_more_useful_ out of the box than the n770, I don't know about the n880 (e.g. the n770's prettly lame media capabilities: the only useful thing out of the box w/ my n770 was web browsing, and that was only after some OS updates made the browser quite a bit more stable). Browsing, email, music, video, phone calls, on one device, all will almost certainly work nearly flawlessly. Again, the only reason that the latter is the case is because Nokia didn't get all that stuff implemented before they released their device, and won't open the platform enough that non-Nokia people that are so inclined can help (just look at the continuing thread about video scaling if you need more evidence of that). Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/10/07, Christian F.K. Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I think the two devices are rather different and not really competing directly that much against eachother. The prices are almost the same, and the iPhone will do everything the n880 will do out of the box, plus much more. Who wouldn't sign up for the much more, at the same price? Also based on Apple's track record I think their openness will be much less than Nokia's in regards to this device. The whole Darwin joke hasn't exactly shown Apple to really give a shit. You are missing my point. Apple's platform doesn't have to be open, because their device will work exactly the way most people want it to right out of the box. Nokia was counting on the community to provide that level of functionality for them, but won't pay us w/ the only thing the open-source community cares about: code and documentation of hardware. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Dave Neuer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Nokia was counting on the community to provide that level of functionality for them, but won't pay us w/ the only thing the open-source community cares about: code and documentation of hardware. Now that sounds as if you haven't watched very closely what happened the last year or so. Claiming that Nokia did not provide hardware and (more importantly) code is - in the best case - just uninformed. The situation with the changed hardware that implies incompatible software is unfortunate, but it is understandable how this situation could arise. I guess Nokia could handle the situation better than it does now, but flames on this list won't change anything. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/10/07, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that sounds as if you haven't watched very closely what happened the last year or so. Claiming that Nokia did not provide hardware and (more importantly) code is - in the best case - just uninformed. Yes, I missed the post to the mailing list and wiki that described the steps to build a complete IT2006 environment from source (including sources for DSME and the dsp gstreamer stuff) and pointers to comprehensive documentation for Retu and Tahvo. Where is that? The situation with the changed hardware that implies incompatible software is unfortunate, but it is understandable how this situation could arise. I guess Nokia could handle the situation better than it does now, but flames on this list won't change anything. Look; I don't mean for this to be a flame. I hope Nokia take it as constructive criticism from a frustrated user/developer who a year later is still waiting to see a level of openess on the device which I think every honest person has to admit was certainly _implied_ in their advertising of a Linux-based device. I have nothing against any Nokia employees, particularly here on this list. They've demonstrated themselves, to a person, to be hardworking, helpful and polite people, most of whom seem to care about Open Source, or Free Software quite a bit. But the company has, I think, really screwed up on this one. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Dave Neuer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 1/10/07, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that sounds as if you haven't watched very closely what happened the last year or so. Claiming that Nokia did not provide hardware and (more importantly) code is - in the best case - just uninformed. Yes, I missed the post to the mailing list and wiki that described the steps to build a complete IT2006 environment from source (including sources for DSME and the dsp gstreamer stuff) and pointers to comprehensive documentation for Retu and Tahvo. you wrote [Nokia] won't pay us w/ the only thing the open-source community cares about: code and documentation of hardware. I missed the word documentation when I read your Mail originally, but my main point is, that plenty of code has resulted for the free software community. Off the top of the head: there has been done a lot of stuff done in GTK+ and GStreamer. The Hildon/Maemo framework is interesting in its own account and could grow into an important framework for all kind of devices. I guess some more close looks will bring other important contributions to the free software community in sight. Especially if you consider indirect effects - interesting stuff like Maemo-Mapper which would not exist if there were no 770. Even if the development is not directly funded by Nokia, the impact the 770 has on the community is huge. And I've seen a lot of companies trying to outsmart the Free Software community. Nokia is not one of them. From the very start they tried to understand what makes the community tick and they are trying to collaborate and openly acknowledge the problems they face within their corporate structure. Demanding the release of all hardware specs is easy. But even if they wanted to do this, they probably could not, because of contracts they have with third parties. I have no clue about hardware development, but I suspect that this contractual stuff is the pure horror. I would be surprised if the minds behind the 770 were like yay! lets break compatibility and fool our userbase when they were faced with the descision to fork. I am willing to assume, that they have put a great deal of thought in this issue. I am not happy about this either and I too wonder if there could have been a better solution. But I don't like at all the insulting tone of a lot of messages in this thread and I don't think it is justified. I hope that the general mood would acknowledge, that the 770 won't stop working immediately just because of the fork. It still will do the stuff it does now, which is a lot. And I'll bet that the software on the 770 will see further improvements, although they won't be as big and as great as the stuff that will happen on the N800. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Frantisek Dufka wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The 770 with OS2006 is still supported by Nokia. So we actually may see maintenance firmware updates (i.e. fixed bugs) for OS2006? Or even something targeted for better compatibility with OS2007? At maemo.org, it has already been stated that there will be a maemo 2.2 release, although this may only be for developers. One possible way to interpret this is that 2.x releases will be for the 770, while 3.x releases will be for the N800. Aaron Levinson Perhaps some kind of OS2006/OS2007 combination will turn out to be practical for hacking on the 770, though again, an end-user ready release is not in the cards. Herring and Sardine (Herring is synced with OS2007/Maemo Bora) already give you Bora (and post-Bora) in the limited context of the HAF. Yes, but the question is not only about hacking, it is about end users. Can end users somehow get such system (not called 2007) so developers can ship one application (with Bora functionality) that work both on such N770 and N880? Let's see how much we can improve on that. Is this suggestion to make community releases (i.e. patched firmwares or set of debs with some install script) for N770 device based on Bora? I guess platform fragmentation is bad thing for everyone (users, developers, Nokia) so that would actually make some sense. BTW I was a bit surprised how unmercifully Dr. Ari Jaaksi killed n770's future. It was pretty tough :-) Also it doesn't send good message to users and developers considering the platform. Well, life is hard. Time will tell if it was good move. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 20:58 +0100, Frantisek Dufka wrote: BTW I was a bit surprised how unmercifully Dr. Ari Jaaksi killed n770's future. It was pretty tough :-) Also it doesn't send good message to users and developers considering the platform. Well, life is hard. Time will tell if it was good move. At $350 I see it as inexcusable. It's annoying when Linksys stops releasing firmware updates for buggy firmware in a $30 router, but it's a bit different in this case*. It seems that hardware vendors have no problem not caring about (or at least seriously neglecting) existing products, from a $30 router to a $2400 laptop (BIOS updates). This may be all fine and dandy with someone who has no problem dropping $400 on a N800 after they've only had their 770 for 18 months (and it's _great_ for Nokia as this person will probably blog about how cool it is), but some of us want our software to outlive the hardware, not the other way around. Personally, I'm going to seriously look into getting GPE on my 770 and partake of the cornucopia of Linux software ready-made from OpenEmbedded rather than see yet another disappointment from the Maemo platform. Andrew * Yes, yes. I know there will be more firmware updates, but I'm in wait-and-see mode tempered with our existing experience getting updates for the 770. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
Frantisek Dufka kirjoitti 9.1.2007 kello 21.58: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The 770 with OS2006 is still supported by Nokia. So we actually may see maintenance firmware updates (i.e. fixed bugs) for OS2006? Or even something targeted for better compatibility with OS2007? Perhaps some kind of OS2006/OS2007 combination will turn out to be practical for hacking on the 770, though again, an end-user ready release is not in the cards. Herring and Sardine (Herring is synced with OS2007/Maemo Bora) already give you Bora (and post-Bora) in the limited context of the HAF. Yes, but the question is not only about hacking, it is about end users. Can end users somehow get such system (not called 2007) so developers can ship one application (with Bora functionality) that work both on such N770 and N880? Could this be part of the .install file? One debian for 770 and one for N800. (or universal if that works for both). That way no users would ever have to know which they are installing. Also, there could be a note if no version is suitable for your device. Just a thought. May be that the .install already supports that. If that's the case, my apologies for mentioning this. Urho Konttori ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
BTW I was a bit surprised how unmercifully Dr. Ari Jaaksi killed n770's future. It was pretty tough :-) Also it doesn't send good message to users and developers considering the platform. Well, life is hard. Time will tell if it was good move. Yes, I was too. They're not overly cheap devices and Nokia has been courting the OSS community with them but then turns around and cuts it off. Its all very well saying they'll support it the problem I see is that they're lavishing all the main 3rd party devs with these nice new devices and suddenly there's no updated versions of apps for the old IT-2006. I'm yet to actually see abiword for IT-2006. At the very least you have split dev... those with one OS version but not the other. I wouldn't mind so much is the entire platform was open and you could build and exact copy of the OS and call it something else like RedHat allows with their RHEL where you can get a 3rd party version called CentOS (I think) but this is not the case with maemo... there's a large majority of it that's open but all the DSP audio stuff isn't as are chunks of other stuff. When it comes down to it its like their no better than the likes of the graphics card manufacturers or wireless card devs with their drivers almost open but not quite. A large chunk of the devices look quite similar to me so I don't quite see the issues here (maybe I'm missing something) but they both run arm procs with DSPs, have BT (ok one had v1.x and the other v2 but its the same to the kernel), SD vs MMC (but I think the kernel handles them the same, a second shouldn't make any diff... one less/more to deal with) wireless (maybe different), 800x480 screen (possibly diff vid cards but there's no WM diffs etc to deal with for res). OK one doesn't have a video cam, but if its not there it can't be used can it! I might have missed something but at the moment I just see Nokia hiding behind a single blog entry. At $350 I see it as inexcusable. It's annoying when Linksys stops releasing firmware updates for buggy firmware in a $30 router, but it's a bit different in this case*. It seems that hardware vendors have no problem not caring about (or at least seriously neglecting) existing products, from a $30 router to a $2400 laptop (BIOS updates). This may be all fine and dandy with someone who has no problem dropping $400 on a N800 after they've only had their 770 for 18 months (and it's _great_ for Nokia as this person will probably blog about how cool it is), but some of us want our software to outlive the hardware, not the other way around. At least with a lot of the $30 routers they are using standard hardware that can usual have custom firmwares that run Linux (like openwrt) for them to allow further updates that maintain complete or better functionality if they don't run Linux already. Personally, I'm going to seriously look into getting GPE on my 770 and partake of the cornucopia of Linux software ready-made from OpenEmbedded rather than see yet another disappointment from the Maemo platform I still prefer maemo but that may well change... * Yes, yes. I know there will be more firmware updates, but I'm in wait-and-see mode tempered with our existing experience getting updates for the 770. Yes, but that's like apple releasing a new update for a 2 gen old ipod that fixes one really annoying bug but updates the DRM to the new version too. Sorry, bit of a rant, but not overly happy about the news. Peter ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OS2006 roadmap
On 1/9/07, Frantisek Dufka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The 770 with OS2006 is still supported by Nokia. So we actually may see maintenance firmware updates (i.e. fixed bugs) for OS2006? Or even something targeted for better compatibility with OS2007? People have been using that word -Support- very freely when talking about OS2006. When you have support from a vendor that generally includes bug fixes and upgrades, otherwise it doesn't mean much. There's been word of a Maemo 2.2, but what's the point if it's only for developers? There are still so many basic problems with OS2006 and it's irresponsible to refuse to help both the new users and early adopters now. How do you regain that trust that's implicit in building a community? The old platform gets a sack lunch and a life raft while the new one sails off into the distance. That's one of the reasons I believe Ari Jaaksi shut the door so firmly on any hope of upgrades-- no chance of reconsideration. You get a smile, Better luck next time!, and the requisite shove. Perhaps some kind of OS2006/OS2007 combination will turn out to be practical for hacking on the 770, though again, an end-user ready release is not in the cards. Herring and Sardine (Herring is synced with OS2007/Maemo Bora) already give you Bora (and post-Bora) in the limited context of the HAF. Yes, but the question is not only about hacking, it is about end users. Can end users somehow get such system (not called 2007) so developers can ship one application (with Bora functionality) that work both on such N770 and N880? And that is that is the real question. Otherwise as someone else put it, you're just fire-bombing the userbase who owns 770s. I thought the idea of Maemo was to make a user-friendly internet tablet, not put everyone on a high-priced hardware upgrade plan. Larry ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
