Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
For information mplayer is available on os2008. If i remember it s available on extra-devel repostory. - Original message - All, So far a large part of my problems are sitting around apps that aren't yet ported to 2008. unzip, radio, mplayer, nmap, omweather are a few that are in the repository but don't install. For now there are some things I don't understand. I'm not trying to step on toes. I just don't understand. 1. Why did Nokia decide to change the industry defacto standard term plugin and change it to component? tools components shows you the browser plugins. 2. Why oh Why did someone take something as useful as xterm and improve to the point of being almost unusable? I can't file bugs, as it is apparently doing what it is supposed to. However, what it does really drives me nuts. Maybe it's just me. Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color into two different locations in the settings gui? Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to a really good app. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Benoit HERVIER wrote: For information mplayer is available on os2008. If i remember it s available on extra-devel repostory. - Original message - All, So far a large part of my problems are sitting around apps that aren't yet ported to 2008. unzip, radio, mplayer, nmap, omweather are a few that are in the repository but don't install. For now there are some things I don't understand. I'm not trying to step on toes. I just don't understand. Welcome to the wild wonderful world of alpha/beta testing. Most would consider the current 8OS release to be a beta version, however, if you're missing an important app, you might consider it an alpha test. Basically 8OS is a work in progress with a few loose ends to tie up -- could be days, weeks or perhaps months til everything gets sorted out. At least it doesn't crash or lock up a couple times an hour like new OSs from MS. -- Always, Dr Fred C [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Hi, ext James Sparenberg wrote: On Tuesday 04 December 2007 12:25:54 am Eero Tamminen wrote: ext James Sparenberg wrote: Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. (in full screen mode) plus to do this also requires that you 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen The above steps are not needed. 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows If you have the full screen finger keyboard open, you need to press Home key twice (first press closes FKBD), otherwise one Home key press is enough. 6. re-maximize This step is not needed either. This is what I think you don't understand. Using the thumkeyboard in Xterm is a royal problem. It just doesn't work right, period, because you can't use it and see/read the screen at the same time. Eh..? When you specifically invoke a full screen keyboard, it covers the whole screen...? No cut and paste, and heaven help you if you are doing e-macs or vi ... because... depending on the remote system it often causes problems in that data previously entered gets lost due to focus change. So your problem is actually with thumb keyboard instead of the tabs/windows issue? Please add a feature request about copy/paste support and bug about latter. - Eero PS. There's also a hack to use N800 as a keyboard for phone. One colleague says it beats T9... :-) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Hi, ext James Sparenberg wrote: Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. (in full screen mode) plus to do this also requires that you 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen The above steps are not needed. 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows If you have the full screen finger keyboard open, you need to press Home key twice (first press closes FKBD), otherwise one Home key press is enough. 6. re-maximize This step is not needed either. The thumb keyboard in xterm is a problem because it takes focus away from the term window, when it does it makes it conceptually, if nothing else, harder to use., so for me I stick with the pop-up keyboard. Honestly for me the keys (home/menu/) and the D-Pad aren't used much at all. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
James Sparenberg wrote: But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. [clip] No, it does not close. The menu stays on top while Xterm updates below it (OS v1.2007.44-4). 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows 6. re-maximize No offence, but it's really starting to sound like you're complaining before giving the home key method a chance... That list is quite far from reality. All solutions to this problem are compromises, but as far as I'm concerned, the compromise in OS2008 is a damn good one: For the price of one additional key press we get maximal screen estate. As an added bonus the problem is solved platform wide, not just for one program. - Jussi -- Jussi Kukkonen http://koti.welho.com/jkukkone/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Tuesday 04 December 2007 12:25:54 am Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext James Sparenberg wrote: Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. (in full screen mode) plus to do this also requires that you 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen The above steps are not needed. 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows If you have the full screen finger keyboard open, you need to press Home key twice (first press closes FKBD), otherwise one Home key press is enough. 6. re-maximize This step is not needed either. This is what I think you don't understand. Using the thumkeyboard in Xterm is a royal problem. It just doesn't work right, period, because you can't use it and see/read the screen at the same time. No cut and paste, and heaven help you if you are doing e-macs or vi ... because... depending on the remote system it often causes problems in that data previously entered gets lost due to focus change. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Monday 03 December 2007 11:18:52 pm Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: On Dec 3, 2007 11:58 PM, James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 03 December 2007 01:27:22 am Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Paul Dundas wrote: Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. (in full screen mode) plus to do this also requires that you I just tried this in OS2008 and it doesn't work as you say. Looks like they've fixed it. The home widget stays there until you explicitly tell it to go away. Perhaps allowing people to turn the feature on and off might be good. On the other hand I never heard anyone complaining about the tabs, or the bar on the right. One size doesn't fit all you know. I support customization. You can put as many as you want into the Terminal application: is not intended for the end user anyway. If the software isn't intended to be used by Nokia's customers who is supposed to use it? James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 16:37 -0800, ext James Sparenberg wrote: If the software isn't intended to be used by Nokia's customers who is supposed to use it? As a matter of fact we were using the terminal far before it was decided to release it for the users. Not that it shouldn't be available, but your statement wasn't exactly true ;-) Actually I'd be positively surprised if it was made available pre-installed in the final image ... -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Tuesday 04 December 2007 01:32:43 am Jussi Kukkonen wrote: James Sparenberg wrote: But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. [clip] No, it does not close. The menu stays on top while Xterm updates below it (OS v1.2007.44-4). 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows 6. re-maximize No offence, but it's really starting to sound like you're complaining before giving the home key method a chance... That list is quite far from reality. Actually the above was there and now that window does stay up... now it stays up no matter what I do sometimes *sigh*. All solutions to this problem are compromises, but as far as I'm concerned, the compromise in OS2008 is a damn good one: For the price of one additional key press we get maximal screen estate. As an added bonus the problem is solved platform wide, not just for one program. The one thing you haven't heard me or others say is. the question why did you fix something that wasn't broken. I've actually lost screen real-estate (when the bar moved to the bottom.) I've never had to do left-right scrolling unless I turned my font up to 14+ in point size. Yet instead of saying we hear you and let us check with other users I'm getting what to me sounds like shut-up we know what you really need. Originally all I wanted to know was why the changes were made. I didn't ask for arguments and put downs. I wanted to know why since this tool is so integral to why I own an n800/770 (both) in the first place. If I wanted shut-up and like it I'd own a mobile win device. I apologize if my questions annoy you in any way. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 16:47 -0800, ext James Sparenberg wrote: The one thing you haven't heard me or others say is. the question why did you fix something that wasn't broken. I've actually lost screen real-estate (when the bar moved to the bottom.) I've never had to do left-right scrolling unless I turned my font up to 14+ in point size. Yet instead of saying we hear you and let us check with other users I'm getting what to me sounds like shut-up we know what you really need. Originally all I wanted to know was why the changes were made. I didn't ask for arguments and put downs. I wanted to know why since this tool is so integral to why I own an n800/770 (both) in the first place. If I wanted shut-up and like it I'd own a mobile win device. I apologize if my questions annoy you in any way. Without getting so dramatic, you could ask The_Right_Question(TM) which is: Why can't I customize the location of the bar? Don't be selfish, I like the bar to be at the bottom, when i use the hw keyboard ;-) Actually it could even be made so that it changes location depending on availability of hw keyboard (meaning that it stays on the right even on the n810 when it is closed). -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Hi, ext Paul Dundas wrote: Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
xterm Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Hi James, You forgot to mention that there isn't a termcap install by default! I agree with you. THe xterm is not very usable in its current state. Try using emacs with that Ctrl window. I have downloaded the old xterm (version 0.14) and recompiled it for OS 2008 (I had to change some of the application names so it would not collide with osso-xterm). It works, except that the modifiers shortcuts just don't work (I have to check why). But, when used with an external keyboard, it gives you a nice full frame xterm that does not give any annoying messages when you press some Ctrl keys. And it brings tabs back. Sometime ago I was trying to find the xterm maintainer. Apparently nobody is fully in charge of it. This is probably the reason it sucks so badly. I suspect the person in charge (and please, if you, the current maintainer reads this, it is not an attack on your skills as a developer, or on your good will trying to improve xtemr) does not use the xterm for anything other than executing shell commands I have some patches that allow to send Ctrl special characters (such as Ctrl-_) to the xterm (under OS 2007). I never got confirmation that were committed. (they were badly needed to run emacs inside an xterm). The repository where I got it from is : https://garage.maemo.org/svn/osso-xterm/osso-xterm/trunk but it has not been changed since Sept of this year. The OS 2008 xterm is not being hosted there (unless it is a branch). Perhaps we need to start a project to create an maemo-xterm that is intended to be used for more than just shell commands. -dmg James All, So far a large part of my problems are sitting around apps that James aren't yet ported to 2008. unzip, radio, mplayer, nmap, omweather James are a few that are in the repository but don't install. For now James there are some things I don't understand. I'm not trying to step on James toes. I just don't understand. James 1. Why did Nokia decide to change the industry defacto standard term James plugin and change it to component? tools components shows you the James browser plugins. James 2. Why oh Why did someone take something as useful as xterm and James improve to the point of being almost unusable? I can't file bugs, as James it is apparently doing what it is supposed to. However, what it James does really drives me nuts. Maybe it's just me. Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple James windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you James can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability James to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 James tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. James Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is James steals valuable screen real-estate from you. James Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color James into two different locations in the settings gui? James Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? James Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now James it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the James keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. James Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it James as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my James job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't James mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to James a really good app. James James -- -- Daniel M. German http://turingmachine.org/ http://silvernegative.com/ dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca replace (at) with @ and (dot) with . ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Monday 03 December 2007 01:27:22 am Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Paul Dundas wrote: Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. Press Home key and thumb the terminal you want from the window list. (it would be nice if the terminal would e.g. show the current directory name in the window title though) Not very practical actually. If the screen updates (which if say I'm compiling remotely it's constantly doing) then as soon as the home widget pops up it closes and you can't use it. (in full screen mode) plus to do this also requires that you 1. close the keyboard 2. put away the stylus 3. change hand position and minimize the screen 4. use home key open the list 5. change windows 6. re-maximize The thumb keyboard in xterm is a problem because it takes focus away from the term window, when it does it makes it conceptually, if nothing else, harder to use., so for me I stick with the pop-up keyboard. Honestly for me the keys (home/menu/) and the D-Pad aren't used much at all. Perhaps allowing people to turn the feature on and off might be good. On the other hand I never heard anyone complaining about the tabs, or the bar on the right. One size doesn't fit all you know. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
First - well done for making this a standard component. Second - I have not tried it no my N800 yet. Now... Tuomas Kuosmanen wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 01:49 -0800, ext James Sparenberg wrote: Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. It steals screen estate no matter where it is. The bottom-one is (again) consistent with the rest of the device, and it is easier to reach with fingers (remember the N810 has the keyboard so you hold it a bit differently in your hands!) Have to disagree - it is relatively simple to shrink the text and recover horizontal space. Vertical space is in much shorter supply when you need the on-screen keyboard. Adding a toolbar would leave less space (though removing tabs might help with vertical space) You can also hide the whole toolbar if you want. That might be good. Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. But I find a relatively common use case for terminal involves switching terminals when in fullscreen mode - more so than switching apps. And in full screen mode (maximising terminal space), tabs really help this. I appreciate not everyone does this, but I suspect it's a common pattern ...Also if you have 10 tabs, you cannot see pretty much anything relevant from the tab titles. Sure your case of 10 tabs is a bit special too - maybe you could just use screen instead? Screen is not so good if you need to scroll - and with onscreen keyboard and now the button bar Multiple windows is consistent with the rest of the platform. Command line access is fundamentally different from the rest of the UI. Typical use cases may be different enough to justify such a non-standard components. I also think it makes sense for the same reason the browser does not have tabs: Tabs work a lot better in a large desktop where you can drag windows around and group some of them together. Since everything is fullscreen, tabs would just duplicate the function of the window switcher. You probably won't have *that* many apps open at once in a tablet anyway compared to a desktop computer anyway. Agreed that tabs CAN be a pain. Yes, Pidgin, I'm looking at you. Two lines of chat is really not enough. Must investigate command line options :-) But well done on the new O/S version. I'm looking forward to getting the time to upgrade and try. -- Paul ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
further beating on OS2008 beta
All, So far a large part of my problems are sitting around apps that aren't yet ported to 2008. unzip, radio, mplayer, nmap, omweather are a few that are in the repository but don't install. For now there are some things I don't understand. I'm not trying to step on toes. I just don't understand. 1. Why did Nokia decide to change the industry defacto standard term plugin and change it to component? tools components shows you the browser plugins. 2. Why oh Why did someone take something as useful as xterm and improve to the point of being almost unusable? I can't file bugs, as it is apparently doing what it is supposed to. However, what it does really drives me nuts. Maybe it's just me. Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color into two different locations in the settings gui? Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to a really good app. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Hi, 2007/11/29, James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2. Why oh Why did someone take something as useful as xterm and improve to the point of being almost unusable? I can't file bugs, as it is apparently doing what it is supposed to. However, what it does really drives me nuts. Maybe it's just me. To be honest, I like the new X Terminal. It's good to have the buttons below the window, so that they don't take away precious space on the right side and force horizontal scrolling (which sucks in vi). The new terminal also feels more responsive than the old one. But this impression might also be caused by the fact that the N800 can run faster with OS 2008. Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Well, there is a WM, matchbox, which just happens to be a fullscreen WM. But you're right, I miss the tabs as well. The advantage of this approach, however, is that there's no screen estate wasted for tabs. Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. IMHO, it's exactly the contrary. Actually the stolen screen estate is given back by not having tabs. ;) All in all, the new terminal steals less screen estate than before. Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color into two different locations in the settings gui? This is really a bad decision. I wanted to change colors yesterday, but gave up since it doesn't make sense to have black on black. Only today I read on internettablettalk that you can change the text color in the font settings. bad design. Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. I fully agree! Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to a really good app. Well, your rants are on a hacker tool, something regular users most probably will never see and if they saw it, would immediately close again. :) I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Cheers, Martin ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 01:49 -0800, ext James Sparenberg wrote: Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. Also if you have 10 tabs, you cannot see pretty much anything relevant from the tab titles. Sure your case of 10 tabs is a bit special too - maybe you could just use screen instead? Multiple windows is consistent with the rest of the platform. I also think it makes sense for the same reason the browser does not have tabs: Tabs work a lot better in a large desktop where you can drag windows around and group some of them together. Since everything is fullscreen, tabs would just duplicate the function of the window switcher. You probably won't have *that* many apps open at once in a tablet anyway compared to a desktop computer anyway. Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. It steals screen estate no matter where it is. The bottom-one is (again) consistent with the rest of the device, and it is easier to reach with fingers (remember the N810 has the keyboard so you hold it a bit differently in your hands!) You can also hide the whole toolbar if you want. Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color into two different locations in the settings gui? This is in the we'll laugh over this when we are old -category. ;) Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. Because a lot of stuff works differently with the physical keyboard. And because I have no clue if the input method works differently on the N800 with N810 OS release shoehorned into it? :-) Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to a really good app. The bottom line is: there is still the old one you can just rebuild for os2008 if it hasnt been built yet, and use that. We just made a version that could be shipped with the N810 for convenience. Also, the source is in garage as osso-xterm, so go and tweak it to your liking if you wish. I think all this new UI stuff is in the ui-rework-branch. //Tuomas ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Nov 29, 2007 2:37 PM, Tuomas Kuosmanen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] [...] (remember the N810 has the keyboard so you hold it a bit differently in your hands!) [snip] Because a lot of stuff works differently with the physical keyboard. And because I have no clue if the input method works differently on the N800 with N810 OS release shoehorned into it? :-) I recognise the smiley, but twice in one post you've mentioned UI decisions on OS2008 were primarily determined (or at least justified here) by the presence of the slideout physical keyboard on the N810. Yes, it's the shiny new device but isn't the N800 an equal partner in the Maemo landscape? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 15:41 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Nov 29, 2007 2:37 PM, Tuomas Kuosmanen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] [...] (remember the N810 has the keyboard so you hold it a bit differently in your hands!) [snip] Because a lot of stuff works differently with the physical keyboard. And because I have no clue if the input method works differently on the N800 with N810 OS release shoehorned into it? :-) I recognise the smiley, but twice in one post you've mentioned UI decisions on OS2008 were primarily determined (or at least justified here) by the presence of the slideout physical keyboard on the N810. Yes, it's the shiny new device but isn't the N800 an equal partner in the Maemo landscape? Developers are part of the testing crowd (which at the beginning is focused especially on HW bugs, since they have the longest lead time and must be fixed asap) and in cases like this, we tend to work mostly on the newest hw, simply because we need as many people as possible to use it. In some cases, even if n810 seems to have the same features of n800, the actual component might have changed sourcing or technology and needs to be verified (usually the first hw revision of a new device comes with several hw components in beta or alpha stage). n810 has also a more refined mechanics and that too required testing and stressing that can be provided only by having a large amount of people using it. (No, unfortunately we cannot accept externals for a tester program ;-) The fact that something might be biased toward the new device is not really intentional, just the byproduct of having a limited amount of people and time. That's part of the reason why the sw release for n800 was scheduled to be available later: no n800 user must perceive the sw update as a step back in terms of quality and performance. Furthermore, having the new devices ready in shops on a certain day means that way before we must have had a sw image deemed good enough for being flashed during production. Once that is achieved, we can focus on purely sw issues. Deploying units in stores has a significantly slower process than uploading the new sw image to the maemo servers. You also have to consider that this is the 1st time we release and support 1 sw for 2 products (the 770 HE came after the release of n800) so the process is far from being mature. This lenghty email is not meant to be a justification, it's just to clarify some of the issues that have to be solved. But stay assured that nobody is neglecting the quality of the n800 experience and, as a matter of fact, we did perform the same amount of official tests (meaning run by System Testing) on both devices. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Martin Grimme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Mac OS X installs Terminal.app by default. This is a Good Thing. Please continue installing xterm by default in OS2008, and thank you for improving the n800. Tallyho, Thomas Armagost digitally doodling http://www.well.com/user/silly Don't forget to register to vote - Frank Zappa ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 13:11 -0800, Thomas Armagost wrote: Martin Grimme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Mac OS X installs Terminal.app by default. This is a Good Thing. Please continue installing xterm by default in OS2008, and thank you for improving the n800. I second that, having a terminal included by default is a very welcome addition in OS2008, thanks! Laurent ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
Martin Grimme wrote: I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Maybe they listened to the crowd and figured it was best this way? Which I totally agree on. A Linux computer without some sort of terminal access makes me feel crippled. Thanks Nokia :) -- Jesper Cheetah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Thursday 29 November 2007 06:37:43 am Tuomas Kuosmanen wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 01:49 -0800, ext James Sparenberg wrote: Why did they remove the useful tabs and replace it with multiple windows? Given that there is no WM in the traditional sense you can't resize and move between them easily. Tabs afforded the ability to quickly manage multiple term windows (my record on the IT is 10 tabs.) Windows bring this to a grinding halt. Because the platform style is multiple windows. And tabs wasted quite a lot of *terminal window* space. Also if you have 10 tabs, you cannot see pretty much anything relevant from the tab titles. Sure your case of 10 tabs is a bit special too - maybe you could just use screen instead? Multiple windows is consistent with the rest of the platform. I also think it makes sense for the same reason the browser does not have tabs: Tabs work a lot better in a large desktop where you can drag windows around and group some of them together. Since everything is fullscreen, tabs would just duplicate the function of the window switcher. You probably won't have *that* many apps open at once in a tablet anyway compared to a desktop computer anyway. Why did they move the button bar to the bottom. Down there is steals valuable screen real-estate from you. It steals screen estate no matter where it is. The bottom-one is (again) consistent with the rest of the device, and it is easier to reach with fingers (remember the N810 has the keyboard so you hold it a bit differently in your hands!) Note. You tell tabs are no good because the use up screen space then put a large bar on the bottom Also I'm using the n800 which needs the bar. With the n810 ... you always have a keyboard, You don't need the bar at all. You can also hide the whole toolbar if you want. good on the n810 not on the n800 Why is it that they split the adjust background color and font color into two different locations in the settings gui? This is in the we'll laugh over this when we are old -category. ;) And be glad that Jeff Raskin isn't around to blast you on that UI decision ;) Why did they increase the steps to use the ctrl key in the button bar? Before to do cntrl-c it was 2 clicks one on cntrl one on c ... now it's 5. cntrl - text box - c - ok - screen during this time the keyboard closes 2 or 3 times. This can make vi a real PITA too. Because a lot of stuff works differently with the physical keyboard. And because I have no clue if the input method works differently on the N800 with N810 OS release shoehorned into it? :-) So now if I'm understanding you correct Nokia is saying pox on the n800 user we are off on a different bend once again. Perhaps I'm just using the IT differently from most, I don't view it as sterility a muti-media toy. To me it's my #1 tool for doing my job, so perhaps I'm a bit sensitive. Sorry if I sound ranty I don't mean to be but I am wondering why so may drastic changes were made to a really good app. The bottom line is: there is still the old one you can just rebuild for os2008 if it hasnt been built yet, and use that. We just made a version that could be shipped with the N810 for convenience. No this is not a solution for a consumer product. You and I both know this. I guess I'm really going to have to find a viable replacement for the n800 I can't be switching hardware every year on a whim. Also, the source is in garage as osso-xterm, so go and tweak it to your liking if you wish. I think all this new UI stuff is in the ui-rework-branch. It doesn't build. The whole library structure is different from a -to b and I'm not a C programmer. //Tuomas ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Thursday 29 November 2007 01:11:28 pm Thomas Armagost wrote: Martin Grimme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Mac OS X installs Terminal.app by default. This is a Good Thing. Please continue installing xterm by default in OS2008, and thank you for improving the n800. Tallyho, Thomas Armagost Thomas I will agree it's usually my #1 install until now. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: further beating on OS2008 beta
On Nov 29, 2007 1:37 PM, Jesper Cheetah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin Grimme wrote: I'm still wondering why Nokia now includes an X Terminal by default. Or is it just there in the beta releases? Maybe they listened to the crowd and figured it was best this way? Which I totally agree on. A Linux computer without some sort of terminal access makes me feel crippled. Thanks Nokia :) Dunno, depends on the primary audience of the Nokia n** series really. I just got my n800 and watched the advertisement video to demo video playback. The person in the video didn't seem like a techy, I doubt hed ever use the console feature. Don't get me wrong, I am a long time nix user and software engineer, however I can see why they might not drop a console tool on the n800. Thing about the n800 is that if you didn't recognize the UI elements, it wouldn't seem linuxish because I imagine people may associate linux with hard and the n800 is very well integrated though has some snags here and there(hopefully os2008 addresses some of those). I showed the n800 to a friend and his first reaction was damn that looks expensive. Unsure what that has to add to my point really, however, if the target audience for the n800 is developers, developers, developers(or high tech peeps) then cool, the console makes sense. If its not then I think the demission of it is a totally fine choice coupled with the fact that its pretty easy to add. -- Jesper Cheetah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- -jon http://www.jdodson.org http://youtube.com/jbdodson ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
