Re: [Mageia-dev] [council] *ping* Media query: secure boot support
2013/1/29 Sander Lepik : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > 29.01.2013 11:11, Thomas Backlund kirjutas: >> And for people thinking of Windows 8 dual boot... Win8 does not >> _require_ SecureBoot either... (only the overprized RT does) >> >> >> And personally, I dont think we should ever bother with the >> SecureBoot crap as its flawed in so many ways... > > > Well, the problem with SecureBoot is in the systems that are sold with > W8 sticker on them. AFAIK, if manufacturer wants to have windows > hardware sertification it has to enable secure boot by default. And > I'm not sure how many systems allow to disable it or how easy it will > be for normal user. As for now Microsoft requires all W8 certified systems with secure boot to allow secure boot to be switched off by user/sysadmin. One reason why I do not understand the reason why all these people (Garret et all) are stumbling all over themselves to solve a problem which is not even sure to ever come by. IMHO Mageia is good to send out the signal that Mageia will face that issue when it's due time. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Latest update borked my x server
2013/1/29 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 29.1.2013 10:26: > >> Installed MGA3 Beta2 including proprietary nvidia driver, working nicely. >> >> After doing updates including kernel 3.8.0-desktop-0.rc5.1.mga3 the >> startup process stopped and showed a message that a display driver >> module is loaded which conflicts with the current setup (translation >> from German) and so x server may not start correctly. And so it was: >> after "Started LSB: Nameserver information manager" the start process >> hangs. Switching to VT2 and logging in, giviong the command 'startx' >> fails: >> >> modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'nvidia_current': No such device >> modprobe: ERROR: Error running install command for nvidia >> modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'nvidia'; Operation not permitted >> (EE) Server termibnated with error (1) >> xinit: giving up >> xinit: unable to connect to X server: Connection refused >> xinit: server error >> >> That's it. >> > > Seems nouveau blacklisting is being ignored :/ > So it blocks the nvidia driver from loading properly > > https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8863 Yes, bug report describes exactly what's happening here (in better English). I added 64-bit platform. -- wobo
[Mageia-dev] Latest update borked my x server
Installed MGA3 Beta2 including proprietary nvidia driver, working nicely. After doing updates including kernel 3.8.0-desktop-0.rc5.1.mga3 the startup process stopped and showed a message that a display driver module is loaded which conflicts with the current setup (translation from German) and so x server may not start correctly. And so it was: after "Started LSB: Nameserver information manager" the start process hangs. Switching to VT2 and logging in, giviong the command 'startx' fails: modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'nvidia_current': No such device modprobe: ERROR: Error running install command for nvidia modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'nvidia'; Operation not permitted (EE) Server termibnated with error (1) xinit: giving up xinit: unable to connect to X server: Connection refused xinit: server error That's it. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] URGENT: FOSDEM restaurant [input needed from everyone]
2013/1/24 AL13N : >> 2013/1/24 Oliver Burger : >>> Am 24.01.2013 01:11, schrieb eatdirt: Indeed. The other suggestion would be to bet a lot of Belgian beers, >>> That's an option for after dinner :D >>> See you next week for some talking and Belgian beers... >> >> I had no objections against the restaurant and the dinner in 2011. >> Location, food & drinks were ok. I did not hear or read negative >> "reviews", although I don't know what happened when the drinking >> started after Oliver and I left. > > i had some negative comment, but looking back now (especially after the > difference with 2012)... it might not have been that bad. > > the problem here is that i almost never go into the brussels region, and i > was of the opinion that belgian food was the best of the world. > > i guess i need to exclude the brussels region from that. > > it's just stupid that due to location, we're forced to eat expensive and > not the best-of-the-world food... That's the case almost everywhere around the world. It's due to the foreign tourists who crowd the world's cities instead of leaving the natives alone. :) BTW, to eat the "best-of-the-world food" you have to go far away from Belgium anyway. :) (except for waffles!) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] URGENT: FOSDEM restaurant [input needed from everyone]
2013/1/24 Oliver Burger : > Am 24.01.2013 01:11, schrieb eatdirt: >> >> >> Indeed. The other suggestion would be to bet a lot of Belgian beers, >> > That's an option for after dinner :D > See you next week for some talking and Belgian beers... I had no objections against the restaurant and the dinner in 2011. Location, food & drinks were ok. I did not hear or read negative "reviews", although I don't know what happened when the drinking started after Oliver and I left. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/28 Maurice Batey : > On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 18:15:16 +0100, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > >> It's not >> only Mageia, trying Debian, Ubuntu, openSuse, Mint and a few others >> including Mageia, only 2 of them were able to get it to run longer >> than from one boot to the next. > > On the same netbook I also installed Ubuntu 12.01 and Mint 13 KDE. > > With both of them, they operated the Broadcom WiFi perfectly 'out of > the box' - no fuss, no mention of 'looking for...', it just worked. Yes. And with MAG1 and MAG2 and Mdv 2010.x it operated out of the box here, no fuss, no mention of looking for. it just worked. Same netbook worked with openSuse but never with network manager nor with Gnome. And now it does not work with MGA3 and (after all this testing MGA3) it does not work anymore with MGA2. using the same software as a couple of weeks ago. So I get the impression that something else was changed, not just the version of the os. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/28 Maurice Batey : > On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 19:34:31 -0700, Thomas Spuhler wrote: > >> I opened the Networkcenter again and the same message apeared: >> Unable to find network interface for selected device (using wl driver) > > I've been through all that on a netbook with Broadcom BCM43225 and > running fully-updated Mageia-3-A2. >I now have solid WiFi after starting to use NetworkManager, which I > installed with the following instructions: After reading messages from numerous users who are using Broadcom chips I get the impression that it does not depemd on the chip or the driver or using network manager or not or which kernel, it seems tp depemd on ALL of it. Until MGA2 my Broadcom only worked outside of gnome and after explicitely uninstalling network manager. Another user told his same chip pnly works with network manager, a third one a different story - and all are talking about the sa,e kernel amd the same MGA version and the same Broadcom 4312. It's not only Mageia, trying Debian, Ubuntu, openSuse, Mint and a few others including Mageia, only 2 of them were able to get it to run longer than from one boot to the next. I'll never ever buy that chip again but everywhere you ask peope keep telling you it's ok to buy this hardware for Linux - mine even came with SLED preinstalled. Ok, so much to let out steam after I woke up in a storm of feathers because some how I had torn my bed cover last night. 2 minutes after I started to clean up the dust bowl in my sleeping room my hoover turned belly up (motor seems overheated) and spread all the feathers and dust all over the place. So pls forgive me the short rant about a hardware whith a problem. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Wolfgang Bornath : > 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 22:39: >> >>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>>> >>>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 22:17: >>>> >>>>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 19:54: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, so now I am at the point where I try to configure wifi without any >>>>>>> additional media than the core repository- >>>>>>> The correct wifi is found but the system says that there are >>>>>>> additionaöl software and drivers needed (namely broadcom-wl) which I >>>>>>> may find in non-free or elsewhere. Just as expected. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Did it try to configure it anyway, or did it stop there ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, it ends there- you can close the ,essage and go back where you >>>>> have the already used option or the option to use a windows driver >>>>> with ndiswrapper. Or go back and leave the cinfiguration >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hm, ok, so I guess it would need manual configuration to test, >>>> but it is easier to test the free drivers you can test with the >>>> "no-wl" test livecd >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Reboot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now could I use the same installation to upgrade and use the same usb >>>>>>> stick, just activating the core plus non-free ? Or do I have to redo >>>>>>> the whole instatallotion? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Just use the same install and install dkms-broadcom-wl >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ok. so all I have to do go online with cable bound network, set media >>>>> including non-free, and then install dkms-broadcom-wl plus the needed >>>>> things. then reboot and try a new attempt at configuring . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> yep. it might still suggest to install some of the prebuilt drivers, >>>> but thats ok. the important part is the blacklist that comes with >>>> dkms-broadcom-wl >>>> >>> >>> Ok, here I may have been too fast. I went online, set the media >>> including non-free and shot at 'urpmi dkms-broadcom-wl'- The system >>> installed 18 packages but at the end it gave errors: >>> >>> Error! Could not locate wl.ko.xz for module broadcom-wl in the DKMS >>> tree. Yoou must run a dkms build for kernel first- >>> warning: %post(dkms-broadcom-wl-5.100.82.112-5.mga3.non-free.i586) >>> scriptlet failed, exit status 4 >>> >> >> Hm, do you have the -devel package matching the kernel you use installed ? > > Damn! When you are too tired and still go on simple errors are creeping up! > > I have to call it a day will go on tomorrow, if my brain is still > there where I left it. G'night. Ok, new day new challenges! I booted with your KDE live with broadcom-wl. Results concerning wifi: The wifi chip was found and just 4 networks/APs (usually there are more than 15 metworks in the list). Mine is not on the list, filled in the infos including password, started but failed. Rebooted, same. Only 4 of the usually more than 15 networks of my block, but not mine nore any other of the usually busy networks are listed. My wifi router is standing less than a foot away from the AP and the AP is worling, I have another machine running MGA3B1 running with wifi (Atheros chip) working nicely. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 22:39: > >> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>> >>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 22:17: >>> >>>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 19:54: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, so now I am at the point where I try to configure wifi without any >>>>>> additional media than the core repository- >>>>>> The correct wifi is found but the system says that there are >>>>>> additionaöl software and drivers needed (namely broadcom-wl) which I >>>>>> may find in non-free or elsewhere. Just as expected. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Did it try to configure it anyway, or did it stop there ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, it ends there- you can close the ,essage and go back where you >>>> have the already used option or the option to use a windows driver >>>> with ndiswrapper. Or go back and leave the cinfiguration >>> >>> >>> >>> Hm, ok, so I guess it would need manual configuration to test, >>> but it is easier to test the free drivers you can test with the >>> "no-wl" test livecd >>> >>>>> >>>>>> Reboot. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now could I use the same installation to upgrade and use the same usb >>>>>> stick, just activating the core plus non-free ? Or do I have to redo >>>>>> the whole instatallotion? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Just use the same install and install dkms-broadcom-wl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok. so all I have to do go online with cable bound network, set media >>>> including non-free, and then install dkms-broadcom-wl plus the needed >>>> things. then reboot and try a new attempt at configuring . >>>> >>> >>> >>> yep. it might still suggest to install some of the prebuilt drivers, >>> but thats ok. the important part is the blacklist that comes with >>> dkms-broadcom-wl >>> >> >> Ok, here I may have been too fast. I went online, set the media >> including non-free and shot at 'urpmi dkms-broadcom-wl'- The system >> installed 18 packages but at the end it gave errors: >> >> Error! Could not locate wl.ko.xz for module broadcom-wl in the DKMS >> tree. Yoou must run a dkms build for kernel first- >> warning: %post(dkms-broadcom-wl-5.100.82.112-5.mga3.non-free.i586) >> scriptlet failed, exit status 4 >> > > Hm, do you have the -devel package matching the kernel you use installed ? Damn! When you are too tired and still go on simple errors are creeping up! I have to call it a day will go on tomorrow, if my brain is still there where I left it. G'night. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 22:17: > >> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>> >>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 19:54: >>> >>>> >>>> Ok, so now I am at the point where I try to configure wifi without any >>>> additional media than the core repository- >>>> The correct wifi is found but the system says that there are >>>> additionaöl software and drivers needed (namely broadcom-wl) which I >>>> may find in non-free or elsewhere. Just as expected. >>>> >>> >>> Did it try to configure it anyway, or did it stop there ? >> >> >> No, it ends there- you can close the ,essage and go back where you >> have the already used option or the option to use a windows driver >> with ndiswrapper. Or go back and leave the cinfiguration > > > Hm, ok, so I guess it would need manual configuration to test, > but it is easier to test the free drivers you can test with the > "no-wl" test livecd > >>> >>>> Reboot. >>>> >>>> Now could I use the same installation to upgrade and use the same usb >>>> stick, just activating the core plus non-free ? Or do I have to redo >>>> the whole instatallotion? >>>> >>> >>> Just use the same install and install dkms-broadcom-wl >> >> >> Ok. so all I have to do go online with cable bound network, set media >> including non-free, and then install dkms-broadcom-wl plus the needed >> things. then reboot and try a new attempt at configuring . >> > > > yep. it might still suggest to install some of the prebuilt drivers, > but thats ok. the important part is the blacklist that comes with > dkms-broadcom-wl > Ok, here I may have been too fast. I went online, set the media including non-free and shot at 'urpmi dkms-broadcom-wl'- The system installed 18 packages but at the end it gave errors: Error! Could not locate wl.ko.xz for module broadcom-wl in the DKMS tree. Yoou must run a dkms build for kernel first- warning: %post(dkms-broadcom-wl-5.100.82.112-5.mga3.non-free.i586) scriptlet failed, exit status 4 -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 19:54: > >> >> Ok, so now I am at the point where I try to configure wifi without any >> additional media than the core repository- >> The correct wifi is found but the system says that there are >> additionaöl software and drivers needed (namely broadcom-wl) which I >> may find in non-free or elsewhere. Just as expected. >> > > Did it try to configure it anyway, or did it stop there ? No, it ends there- you can close the ,essage and go back where you have the already used option or the option to use a windows driver with ndiswrapper. Or go back and leave the cinfiguration > >> Reboot. >> >> Now could I use the same installation to upgrade and use the same usb >> stick, just activating the core plus non-free ? Or do I have to redo >> the whole instatallotion? >> > > Just use the same install and install dkms-broadcom-wl Ok. so all I have to do go online with cable bound network, set media including non-free, and then install dkms-broadcom-wl plus the needed things. then reboot and try a new attempt at configuring . -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Wolfgang Bornath : > 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >> Thomas Backlund skrev 27.12.2012 17:01: >> >> >>> >>> I wonder if I should create 2 test livecds to ease testing >>> right now, one without broadcom-wl, and the other >>> with broadcom-wl and in-kernel drivers blacklisted... >>> >> >> And so I did :) >> >> Theese are exactly the same as the official beta1 isos, >> with only exceptions are the broadcom-wl tests: >> >> * No broadcom-wl drivers on iso, and no "wl" entries in ldetect-lst: >> http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test/Mageia-3-beta1-no-wl-LiveCD-KDE4-en-i586-CD/ >> >> >> * broadcom-wl drivers on iso, "wl" entries in ldetect-lst, >> in-kernel drivers blacklisted: >> http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test/Mageia-3-beta1-wl-LiveCD-KDE4-en-i586-CD/ >> >> >> And you can soon find them on any Mageia mirror in: >> >> people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test > > Thx for the extra work, I had to re-install anyway, am in the middle to do so- > > My first attempt is without actiyated non-free which should tell something- > > After that I will use the usb stick with enabled non-free and checl > again. all without cable- > Ok, so now I am at the point where I try to configure wifi without any additional media than the core repository- The correct wifi is found but the system says that there are additionaöl software and drivers needed (namely broadcom-wl) which I may find in non-free or elsewhere. Just as expected. Reboot. Now could I use the same installation to upgrade and use the same usb stick, just activating the core plus non-free ? Or do I have to redo the whole instatallotion? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Thomas Backlund skrev 27.12.2012 17:01: > > >> >> I wonder if I should create 2 test livecds to ease testing >> right now, one without broadcom-wl, and the other >> with broadcom-wl and in-kernel drivers blacklisted... >> > > And so I did :) > > Theese are exactly the same as the official beta1 isos, > with only exceptions are the broadcom-wl tests: > > * No broadcom-wl drivers on iso, and no "wl" entries in ldetect-lst: > http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test/Mageia-3-beta1-no-wl-LiveCD-KDE4-en-i586-CD/ > > > * broadcom-wl drivers on iso, "wl" entries in ldetect-lst, > in-kernel drivers blacklisted: > http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test/Mageia-3-beta1-wl-LiveCD-KDE4-en-i586-CD/ > > > And you can soon find them on any Mageia mirror in: > > people/tmb/mga3-beta1-wl-test Thx for the extra work, I had to re-install anyway, am in the middle to do so- My first attempt is without actiyated non-free which should tell something- After that I will use the usb stick with enabled non-free and checl again. all without cable- -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:49: > >> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>> >>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:29: >>> >>>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:04: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> can you provide either "lspcidrake -v" or "lspci -vnn" for that >>>>>>> device >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> # lspcidrake -v |grep Broadcom >>>>>> wl : Broadcom Corporation | BCN4312 802.11b/g LP-PHY [NETWORK_OTHER] >>>>>> (vendor:14e4 device:4315 subv:14e4 subd:04b5) (rev 1) >>>>>> >>>>>> That's it >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. that shows the subvendor/device ids. >>>>> The 4312 ones are problematic iirc... >>>>> >>>>> Now for some tests... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In which mode do you want me to do that ? >>>>- live mode >>> >>> >>> >>> This wont work as you need to reboot to make sure the hw is in "good >>> state" , wich will make the "uninstall part" useless. >> >> >> Ok, that was clear. >> >>> >>>>- installed without net access (through additional cable) >>>>- installed with net access (through additional cable) ? >>> >>> you dont need cable access for the first part (1-4) but need >>> cable access (or beta1 install dvd) for second part (5-8) >>> >>> after configuration step you obviously need to disconnect the >>> cable to verify that it works with wireless. >>> >>> And you dont need to do a new install to test this, >>> a current installed/updated cauldron system should be enough. >> >> >> Ah, I need to do a new because I only have one system with this device >> :( So I just start from fresh, >> - first with non-free disabled and reboot, >> - then non-free enabled with reboot >> > > Hm, is that system running mga2 ? No, it is running no system at all save for the one I'm going to install- It's a small harddisk holding just one. Don't bother, I'd have to re-install anyway. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:29: > >> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>> >>> Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:04: >>>> >>>> >>>> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : >>> >>> >>> >>>>> can you provide either "lspcidrake -v" or "lspci -vnn" for that device >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> # lspcidrake -v |grep Broadcom >>>> wl : Broadcom Corporation | BCN4312 802.11b/g LP-PHY [NETWORK_OTHER] >>>> (vendor:14e4 device:4315 subv:14e4 subd:04b5) (rev 1) >>>> >>>> That's it >>>> >>> >>> Thanks. that shows the subvendor/device ids. >>> The 4312 ones are problematic iirc... >>> >>> Now for some tests... >> >> >> In which mode do you want me to do that ? >> - live mode > > > This wont work as you need to reboot to make sure the hw is in "good > state" , wich will make the "uninstall part" useless. Ok, that was clear. > >> - installed without net access (through additional cable) >> - installed with net access (through additional cable) ? > you dont need cable access for the first part (1-4) but need > cable access (or beta1 install dvd) for second part (5-8) > > after configuration step you obviously need to disconnect the > cable to verify that it works with wireless. > > And you dont need to do a new install to test this, > a current installed/updated cauldron system should be enough. Ah, I need to do a new because I only have one system with this device :( So I just start from fresh, - first with non-free disabled and reboot, - then non-free enabled with reboot -- wübü
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 16:04: >> >> 2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > > >>> can you provide either "lspcidrake -v" or "lspci -vnn" for that device >> >> >> # lspcidrake -v |grep Broadcom >> wl : Broadcom Corporation | BCN4312 802.11b/g LP-PHY [NETWORK_OTHER] >> (vendor:14e4 device:4315 subv:14e4 subd:04b5) (rev 1) >> >> That's it >> > > Thanks. that shows the subvendor/device ids. > The 4312 ones are problematic iirc... > > Now for some tests... In which mode do you want me to do that ? - live mode - installed without net access (through additional cable) - installed with net access (through additional cable) ? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Thomas Backlund : > Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.12.2012 15:18: >> >> 2012/12/27 Anssi Hannula : >>> >>> 27.12.2012 00:54, Thomas Backlund kirjoitti: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm thinking of dropping the nonfree prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers >>>> (and thereby their "support" from live images) >>>> >>>> This means also dropping them from ldetect-lst, and if we keep/add >>>> some there, it must be for specific reason and on sub-vendor/device >>>> level to not force the wl stuff on everyone... >>> >>> [...] >>>> >>>> Comments ? >>> >>> >>> Agreed. Besides, the free driver works much better (i.e. better range) >>> with my laptop. >> >> >> As it looks with i586 Beta1 none of the drivers works at the moment- >> >> lspci -v >> 05:00:0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4312 802.11b/g >> LP-PHY (rev 01) >> Subsystem: Broadcom Corporation Device 04b5 >> Kernel driver un use: wl >> > > > can you provide either "lspcidrake -v" or "lspci -vnn" for that device # lspcidrake -v |grep Broadcom wl : Broadcom Corporation | BCN4312 802.11b/g LP-PHY [NETWORK_OTHER] (vendor:14e4 device:4315 subv:14e4 subd:04b5) (rev 1) That's it -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] RFC: dropping prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers
2012/12/27 Anssi Hannula : > 27.12.2012 00:54, Thomas Backlund kirjoitti: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm thinking of dropping the nonfree prebuilt broadcom-wl drivers >> (and thereby their "support" from live images) >> >> This means also dropping them from ldetect-lst, and if we keep/add >> some there, it must be for specific reason and on sub-vendor/device >> level to not force the wl stuff on everyone... > [...] >> Comments ? > > Agreed. Besides, the free driver works much better (i.e. better range) > with my laptop. As it looks with i586 Beta1 none of the drivers works at the moment- lspci -v 05:00:0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4312 802.11b/g LP-PHY (rev 01) Subsystem: Broadcom Corporation Device 04b5 Kernel driver un use: wl -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Will the 'official' Mageia-3 installer have a 'GRUB Legacy' option?
2012/12/3 Maurice Batey : > On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 20:25:53 +0100, AL13N wrote: > >> grub2 has btrfs support > > So for those pioneers who want to use btrfs, let them have an 'install with > GRUB2" option, and keep GRUB-Legacy as default?! Yes, at least until btrfs is really working - if I'm not mistaken it doesn't even have a working tool for checking the filesystem or repair it. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Will the 'official' Mageia-3 installer have a 'GRUB Legacy' option?
2012/12/3 Guillaume Rousse : > Le 02/12/2012 13:13, Maurice Batey a écrit : >> >> Those are just some of the reasons why I would like to avoid - or postpone >> - >> conversion to GRUB2, the need for which I still fail to comprehend. > > Why do you care about installer support, for stuff already installed ? I do not understand the whole discussion about Grub. If you have a Grub2 installed by another distribution it is easy to install a second distro (Mageia 3) which also uses Grub2. If you have another distribution installed with grub-legacy it is easy to install a second distro which uses grub2 (use chainloader in your existing grub-legacy). For me it is totally regardless which grub will be used for Mageia3. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repo down: repository fallback by default...
2012/11/26 Jehan Pagès : > Hi, > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Jehan Pagès > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am trying to install some software and get the error: >> << >> L'installation a échoué, certains fichiers sont manquants : >> >> rsync://ftp.tsukuba.wide.ad.jp/mageia/distrib/2/x86_64/media/tainted/release/mencoder-1.0-1.rc4.0.r34578.9.mga2.tainted.x86_64.rpm >> Vous devriez mettre à jour votre base de données urpmi. >> >> Essayer de continuer néanmoins ? >> >> >> (basically the rsync failed) >> >> So I guess the repo is down, hopefully temporarily. I went to the >> "configure media sources" UI and "add a specific media mirror" (was using >> the $MIRRORLIST default until now). >> >> [Side-note: the other mirror in Japan also had faulty tainted repos. I >> wonder if there is a problem with Japan politics maybe about tainted >> softwares?] >> > > About my side note, I realize today that Japanese servers seem still down > (or "again"? Since I used alternate servers since this problem I had weeks > ago, I don't know). Have Mageia's Japanese contributor abandonned Mageia? > Thanks. The mirror is not down, you are using a wrong address. The correct address for the Mageia mirror is ftp.tsukuba.wide.ad.jp/Linux/mageia/distrib/2/ (in your link the /Linux/ is missing) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] what is this ????
2012/11/24 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Saturday 24. November 2012 12.58, PhilippeDidier wrote: >> Someone want to be paid for his work on Mageia > > I have no problems with people working on mageia for money, as long as they > adhere to our rules. If this results in more bugs being fixed, then we are > benefitting from it. > Many of the kernel hackers are paid by their employers to work on the kernel. > Others are paid to work with a distribution. This is not new. > >> Such a page might need an agreement before being published ... >> don't you think so ? > > I think so, yes. > The current page implies that this is a Mageia project. > I have no problem with the content itself. But the content of that page > belongs on the authors webpage, not on the Mageia wiki. > > The page should be deleted. Well, actually I think the page needs some editing. As it is now it may give wrong ideas (as we see in this thread). What the page really says is that if Mageia does not offer any solution for a given bug because of lack of time or lack of interest by the developers a user is able to address the developers with a financial offer like "fix this bug and I would pay 50 EuroCents." What the page does not say: it is not an advertisement of one or more Mageia developers offering paid service. It is merely a text telling the users that in a certain case this option is possible - keeping in mind that the resulting fix will still be free for all Mageia users to use. So, IMO the offer is something similar to Ubuntu's offer to be able to donate to a single project inside the distribution. With a better phrasing the page may be ok. Of course the details should be discussed in public and after that the option should be advertized in a blog. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Utter frustration
Just to notify Anne that the latest mails to mageia-dev arrived in 2 flavours: - 1 gnupg signed version, coming from Anne Wilson cannewil...@googlemail.com - 1 unsigned version (same text) coming from Anne Wilson an...@kde.org -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Problem with Totem packages?
2012/11/21 Olav Vitters : > On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 02:32:32PM +0100, Pierre Jarillon wrote: >> Le mercredi 21 novembre 2012 13:29:26, Olav Vitters a écrit : >> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 02:11:40AM +0100, Pierre Jarillon wrote: >> > > If we want a full usable distro out the box, VLC must be the default >> > > choice for all videos and then Totem could be removed. >> > >> > Which desktop are you using? VLC is IMO terrible, but I don't see why >> > application defaults should be the same across desktops. Totem under >> > anything other than GNOME: who cares? Maybe for XFCE VLC is a better fit >> > or something. >> >> VLC works with any destop and any OS. >> Most of people coming from Windows already use VLC. >> LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird and VLC are the most universal >> applications. >> They allow easy migrations from Microsoft. >> However, I prefer Konqueror and kmail in a KDE environment. > > You really like VLC :) > > If there is no KDE mediaplayer, then maybe file a bug. Totem in KDE is > not the best match. Neither is dragon player nor is totem a good thing in Gnome. Both application suffer from the same cause: as soon as we enter the video section we also become victims of the free/non-free/tainted issue. Result: totem as well as dragon player as provided by the free DVD are not able to play any kind of video, unless you install certain plugins. Now the direct issue is, how both applications deal with this. None of both is able to list all necessary plugins to play the wanted video - it's always the dance "a plugin is missing!" - "Which plugin?" then a forum helper tells you about one plugin, you install it, restart totem and - Bang! - it kills you with another "A plugin is missing!". Do that 3 times and maybe it works for this one video, coming back with the next video format. Same with dragon player. It's an upstream issue all right, but why is it not possible to include a function which lists ALL needed plugins, so you can install all of them? Or even better, a meta-package for those who want it all, which installs all available plugins for video play? I understand the reasons why they can not be installed automatically, but it would be a great step forward if all needed plugins can be installed in ONE step. Apart from that and not judging by look&feel, vlc really is the best when it comes to playing media. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Duckduckgo / Mageia browsers
2012/11/20 Pascal Terjan :
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Wolfgang Bornath
> wrote:
>>
>> 2012/11/20 Anne Nicolas :
>> > Hi there
>> >
>> > As some of you may have followed this on council meetings, we have
>> > signed a
>> > contract with Duckduckgo, the search engine. They will give us 25% of
>> > the
>> > monthly gross revenue generated from user traffic that originates from
>> > the
>> > company links within each of the Partner Properties.
>> >
>> > What we need to do is provides updates on browsers for cauldron and
>> > Mageia 2
>> > including this:
>> >
>> > https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}&t=mageia
>> >
>>
>> This link only lists other search systems. To get results about Mageia
>> the link is:
>>
>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}mageia
>>
>> Additionally: as Dimitrios already pointed out, search result links do
>> not work in Konqueror (just tried, confirmed).
>
>
> I think the point is to replace {{search}} with the query you want and
> assign the search to mageia, not to search about mageia
Ah, that may be.
--
wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Duckduckgo / Mageia browsers
2012/11/20 Anne Nicolas :
> Hi there
>
> As some of you may have followed this on council meetings, we have signed a
> contract with Duckduckgo, the search engine. They will give us 25% of the
> monthly gross revenue generated from user traffic that originates from the
> company links within each of the Partner Properties.
>
> What we need to do is provides updates on browsers for cauldron and Mageia 2
> including this:
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}&t=mageia
>
This link only lists other search systems. To get results about Mageia
the link is:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q={{search}}mageia
Additionally: as Dimitrios already pointed out, search result links do
not work in Konqueror (just tried, confirmed).
--
wobo.
Re: [Mageia-dev] mirror problems (mirror.aarnet.edu.au/mageia)
2012/11/20 scsijon : > sorry folks but can someone let whoever know that handles the mirror > updating/syncing that mirror.aarnet.edu.au/mageia (with a few others) had a > major drive corruption/destruction about a week or so, and 'quite a bit' of > it has not yet been replaced ie it is no longer there or doesn't work. I did > email someone through the forum who I thought was a moderator, but nothing > has happened so i'm taking this thread path as I do know it will be attended > to! > > And I wouldn't exactly trust what is still there anyway! Best may be to > start a rsync with hash checking or just do everything, it may be quicker. When you open this link http://mirror.aarnet.edu in http mode you will see a bottom line: "Feedback or queries are welcome to mir...@aarnet.edu.au" -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repo down: repository fallback by default...
2012/11/10 Jehan Pagès : > Hi, > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Christian Lohmaier > wrote: >> >> Hi *, >> >> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Jehan Pagès >> wrote: >> > >> > So I guess the repo is down, hopefully temporarily. I went to the >> > "configure >> > media sources" UI and "add a specific media mirror" (was using the >> > $MIRRORLIST default until now). >> > >> > So my real question is: couldn't the $MIRRORLIST fallback to other >> > servers >> > than the "closer" instead of failing? >> >> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3166 >> >> would solve all that >> > > Cool. :-) Yes, extremely cool! :) This is one of my favourite bugs of all times. Remember, this bug is older than Mageia itself! The ability of urpm to switch mirrors in case of a not responding or not up-to-date mirror was requested in Mandriva almost right after $MIRRORDIR was implemented (3-4 years ago?). Hopefully somebody with the necessary knowledge could find the time to implement the solution discussed here and assigned to webteam 5 months ago.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Draft of a Letter to the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC).
2012/11/8 Trish Fraser : > > >> Hi Donald and Johnny, >> >> On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 09:15:09 + >> Donald Stewart wrote: >> >> > On 8 November 2012 00:45, Johnny A. Solbu wrote: >> > >> > > On Tuesday 06 November 2012 23:39, Shlomi Fish wrote: >> > > > Dear sirs or madams, >> > > >> > > To me, this sounds a little to generic, a little to unformal when >> > > contacting a law firm. >> > > I feel that if you're using «Dear XXX» there should be one or the >> > > other. I.e. Either Sir og Madam, but then you need to know the >> > > gender of the one responding. and that can be a little >> > > tricky. ;-)= >> > > >> > >> > No, this is wrong, you *cannot* use just one, it has to be both. >> > You could have Dear Sir/Madam, but the correct usage is as >> > originally stated. This is an official letter, and therefore should >> > have the official address to the recipient. >> >> Right. >> >> > > Consider using a more generinc term, like «Greetings» or «Good >> > > morgning» (depending on the time of day you send the email.) or a >> > > similar term. >> > > >> > >> > This is far too colloquial, and unsuitable for a letter to an >> > official body. >> > >> >> I also agree. >> >> Regards, >> >> Shlomi Fish >> > > If we're being formal and correct, it should be "Dear Sirs/Mesdames", I'm > fairly sure. Really? Having a mix of English and French? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Draft of a Letter to the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC).
2012/11/8 Anne Wilson : > >> This is an official letter, and therefore should have the official >> address to the recipient. >> >> Consider using a more generinc term, like «Greetings» or «Good >> morgning» (depending on the time of day you send the email.) or a >> similar term. >> >> This is far too colloquial, and unsuitable for a letter to an >> official body. >> > Agreed. Yes, +1 But here we have the differences of English "rules" in different countries and even schools. In Germany in "Business English" I learned to address the recipient in an official letter with "Madam, Sir, On behalf of" No "dear" or "forever yours" :) I received some official letters with that same address from English companies (mostly unwanted business offers but nevertheless), one even from a company specialized in setting up LTD organisations by UK laws. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] cinelerra/audiokonverter/arista (war Re: rehashing the faac issue)
2012/11/1 Christian Lohmaier : > Hi Wolfgang, *, > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Wolfgang Bornath > wrote: >> [...] >> After reading all arguments again I must confess that I changed my >> opinion: Being consequent and following our road we need a >> /tainted-free and a /tainted-nonfree branch. > > I still think this would be a very user-*un*friendly way to handle it. > > You cannot put packages that itself is "free", but depends on > "tainted&nonfree" packages into the "free" repo, since the core repos > need to be self-contained. > > The natural approach would then be to put that package into the same > repo as the packages that fulfill the requirement. > > If now you have two tainted repositories, one "free" and one > "non-free", you would put the "free with dependencies" package into > the tainted-free repo. But it itself isn't tainted, so actually > wouldn't belong in there. But even when you have tainted-free enabled, > and you try to install the package, you need to enable the > tainted-nonfree one. > Or you put it into tainted-nonfree to keep the repos more > self-contained, but then the distinction is rendered useless, as > packages end up there for completely different reasons. > > And if you have to enable both tainted variants anyway, there is no > point in having them separate in the first place other than to please > some bureaucratic nitpicking. > > So by creating a tainted-nonfree repo that only a handful of packages > actually belong into anyway, you create a situation of non-satisfiable > dependencies that make the distinction pointless from a user-POV. > > Much better would then be to create an "ugly" repo (in the spirit of > gstreamer) that contains the "doesn't fit into the other repos" stuff. > > AFAIK only multimedia related stuff falls into tainted-nonfree. And it > is either you want to use it or not. If you want to use it, the user > doesn't care whether it is free or nonfree (by whatever definition, > there isn't the one-and-only definition that everyone agrees with > anyway). You only might care about whether it is tainted or not (and > many don't give a damn about software patents even where they could > apply in theory). It is not like you have a chance in most of these > cases. Either you use a "100% free but sucks" implementation, or you > use the "tainted and possibly "nonfree", but working just fine" one. Taking what you wrote into account there is no chance for a solution which also honors the division between free, non-free and tainted, at least non of the propositions in this thread would work. Because as you described the problem is not with each software but rather with its requirements (free software needing a non-free or tainted library to run or offer all its features). So what can we do? What do users want in such cases? First they do not want crippled packages. If they decide to have mplayer they want the whole thing, not a free variant which lacks features. They'd rather not want mplayer at all. Answering to this there may be a rather pragmatic but also drastic and even provocative solution: Stop offering software in core which need non-free and/or tainted libraries to give all its features. This software should not be offered in 2 or even 3 variants but only in one full version, residing in an "ugly" (or whatever you want to call it) repository. Yes, there may be people who would like to use mplayer without non-free or tainted libraries - but are there really? To my experience they either use the full blown package or another software. This solution may not hold against theoretical arguments but I think it's pretty much the practical way, for users as for packagers. And it will motivate people to search for free solutions where possible. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] cinelerra/audiokonverter/arista (war Re: rehashing the faac issue)
2012/11/1 PhilippeDidier : > Christiaan Welvaart a écrit : >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, PhilippeDidier wrote: >> >>> I don't know actually how to create *.aac files or *.mp4 files with >>> Mageia... if you help me I will be happy... >> >> ffmpeg -i foo.mp3 -strict -2 -codec:a aac -format adts foo.aac >> >> But AFAIK this uses the ffmpeg internal aac codec which isn't very good. >> -codec:a libvo_aacenc produces garbage, no idea why >> >> About arista: someone decided to use the internal ffmpeg lib from >> gstreamer-ffmpeg for gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg which broke arista. Now arista >> must be ported to gstreamer1.0 . >> >> >> Christiaan >> > So ... > You can understand, now, if you need to create aac or mpa or mp4 files : > that faac works > that softwares built with it work too > that nothing inside Mageia work (libvo_aacenc is really bad quality when > it doesn't produce garbages) > that we have been waiting since Mageia exists for an hypthetic GPL > alternative to faac > that to satisfy exclusive gpl software policy in tainted repo we are stuck > > What do you propose then ? After reading all arguments again I must confess that I changed my opinion: Being consequent and following our road we need a /tainted-free and a /tainted-nonfree branch. I apologise for my harsh words about the whole matter, the repeated discussion changed my mind. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/30 Olivier Blin : > Wolfgang Bornath writes: > >> There has been a wide consensus for the solution to put it into >> tainted as has been said in this thread as well. > > The consensus was maybe not so clear then. Maybe not so clear for those whose opinion differs from the consensus, understandable. I did not write about a consensus as first one, it has been written repeatedly by others. >> Sorry if it is too offending for one or the other if I call this >> procedure "ridiculous". > > Where do you see a procedure here? :-) > Offer one if you think that's needed. Ah, in case you have missed all those mails in the devel list: 1. The issue was brought to the attention of the people, including the developers. 2. The issue has been discussed at length including mantra-like repetitions. 3. Several people suggested the same solution (we did not start a poll but to me it looked like a large part of the participants of the discussion). If I am wrong here then all others who saw it like me are wrong as well 4. All it needed now was action according to that consensus. This is what I call a procedure and how issues have been treated many times. May be your definition is different. After the discussion reached this state everybody waited for action, which may have ver well have been delayed because of other more important work. That was the subject/contents of the opening mail and first answers of this thread. Until somebody started to open the discussion again. Another option would have been to bring the issue to the council after the first discussion ended but I haven't yet read any mail about such a move during the months since then. Is that what you were waiting for? > It could be up to the council or board to chose the lesser evil between: > - picking tainted for non-free + tainted packages like faac, and thus > forbid mirroring tainted packages that are only free-software > (but maybe that's the hypothetical 'selective mirror admin' from Guillaume) yes, you've been calling those existing mirror maintainers "hypothetical" before. Very good argument. If I don't like something I just pretend it isn't there. Anyhow, I said my opinion in the first thread including the reasons behind my opinion. The outcome of this is not so interesting (I could use the blogdrake solution any time), I'm ok with any decision or consensus. But it is the way this issue is handled which I criticise. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
Nice to see that everyone went back to Start with this discussion, almost using the same words in their arguments. Is this really needed? There has been a wide consensus for the solution to put it into tainted as has been said in this thread as well. There are 2 options now: 1. act according to the consensus (as it should be at Mageia) 2. discuss it again in 6 months with the same words and arguments - we could even copy and paste the mail contents. As long as there is a solution for the users available at blogdrake we have all the time in the world. Sorry if it is too offending for one or the other if I call this procedure "ridiculous". -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository access problem?
2012/10/29 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 29/10/12 13:25 did gyre and gimble: >> For me it does not matter so much anyway, mirror mandrivauser.de will >> close down at December 2012. :( > > Oh no! I liked that mirror - wy faster than d-c but still regularly > updated. I will miss it! Yes, I liked it too. :) I will not make a big fuss about it but the main reason was set when we (the German users) decided to let Mageia host our German forum. As mandrivauser.de "lost" almost all active people to Mageia (people like obgr_seneca, doktor5000, and many more) and Mandriva 2011 did not generate new users, due to the bad reception of the release, the forum and production came to a screeching halt. Makes no sense to run a server with a yearly cost of 500+ Euros in this situation. We may have come around better if in 2011 we decided to run the German Mageia forum on our own server instead of the Mageia server (also for other reasons, as it turned out). So I'm part of the cause, made a wrong decision then. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository access problem?
2012/10/29 Frank Griffin : > On 10/29/2012 08:06 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> No, not really. We sync with distrib-coffee but we do not get as far as >> the -delete option could do any damage: But putting rsync on hold until the >> situation is cleared up is certainly a good idea. 1 Minute ago >> distrib-coffee answered to our sync request: --- receiving incremental >> file list rsync: change_dir "/linux/Mageia" (in pub) failed: No such file or >> directory (2) ... I checked, all our Mageia branches with all >> packages are still here! :) > > Yes, rsync at the moment aborts because of missing directories. The danger > will come as the directories get restored and are virtually empty, because > rsync --delete will blow away all of the taget directory files that don't > exist in the source. Yes :) For me it does not matter so much anyway, mirror mandrivauser.de will close down at December 2012. :( -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository access problem?
2012/10/29 Frank Griffin : > On 10/29/2012 06:40 AM, Nicolas Lécureuil wrote: >> >> Yes but as told distrib-coffee seems to have a pb but not only with mageia >> see >> : ftp://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/ >> > Just a reminder, if you normally mirror from distrib-coffee using rsync > --delete, you probably don't want to do that until it's fully restored. > Otherwise, you'll be burning a lot of bandwidth. No, not really. We sync with distrib-coffee but we do not get as far as the -delete option could do any damage: But putting rsync on hold until the situation is cleared up is certainly a good idea. 1 Minute ago distrib-coffee answered to our sync request: --- receiving incremental file list rsync: change_dir "/linux/Mageia" (in pub) failed: No such file or directory (2) ... I checked, all our Mageia branches with all packages are still here! :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository access problem?
2012/10/29 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Monday 29 October 2012 08:31, Funda Wang wrote: >> And, cauldron repository has been wiped.. > > I just checked the distrib-coffee mirror to see when the last package upload > was, and found that everything there is wiped as well, and i really do mean > everything. > > Heh.. Something is clearly up somewhere, or is it down? ;-)= > I noticed something while writing this mail. The folders at distrib-coffee > are empty, and are disapearing only to reappear after a few seconds and > disappear and reappear. > And round and round it goes. Concerning distrib-coffee: my mirror (mandrivauser.de) sync with distrib-coffee. Everything ok at 04:00 UTC, at 06:00 UTC it only sync'd MGA2/x86_64/core/updates - no i586 at all and no cauldron at all -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Notes about live CD
2012/10/27 Olivier Blin : > Wolfgang Bornath writes: > >> Some installed packages (hardware and language support) may not be >> needed on your computer. >> [ ] Check to remove unused hardware support >> [ ] Check to remove unused language support >> >> Here the option tells exactly and with no room for misunderstanding in >> one line what it is doing when checked or unchecked. > > The "Check to" words are a bit too much, it's a checkbox, there should > be no need to say how to interact with it. > > And specifying the "hardware and language" in the introduction sentence > will make harder to add more items later, since it would break the > string. > > How about this? > > Some installed packages may not be needed on your computer. > You can remove them to save space. > [ ] Remove unused hardware support > [ ] Remove unused language support Perfect! -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Notes about live CD
2012/10/27 JA Magallón : > On 10/26/2012 12:54 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: >> >> JA Magallón writes: >> >>> - the installer asks to remove the unused harware support, but the >>>wording for the choice is misleading: >>> >>> [ ] Unsued hardware support >>> >>>What does it really mean if I tick this, I want to keep the unused >>>hw support or to remove it ? >> >> >> The text reads this way: >> >> We will remove the following packages, unless you choose otherwise: >> [ ] Unused hardware support >> [ ] Unused localization >> > > Oops, sorry for the late answer. > > In the live _CD_, I saw no choice for localization, I think it is > because it only includes english ? The live DVD has both marks to check. > > I will rephrase it as: > > There is some soft installed by default that is not needed in your > current setup. Mark them if you want it to be removed now: > [ ] Unused hardware support > [ ] Unused localizations > > -- > J.A. Magallon \ Winter is > coming... As it is now the user has to read the whole thing (first the leading sentence, then the options, then put both in a meaningful relation) before he can decide what to do. Our goal was always to make it as simple as reasonable for the user to understand what we exactly mean. So why not write in the options what is really done? Some installed packages (hardware and language support) may not be needed on your computer. [ ] Check to remove unused hardware support [ ] Check to remove unused language support Here the option tells exactly and with no room for misunderstanding in one line what it is doing when checked or unchecked. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Notes about live CD
2012/10/26 Olivier Blin : > JA Magallón writes: > >> - the installer asks to remove the unused harware support, but the >> wording for the choice is misleading: >> >> [ ] Unsued hardware support >> >> What does it really mean if I tick this, I want to keep the unused >> hw support or to remove it ? > > The text reads this way: > > We will remove the following packages, unless you choose otherwise: > [ ] Unused hardware support > [ ] Unused localization Yes, still I was puzzled for a moment as well. To me this is a correct choice of words but it is not the best to be un-misunderstandable. I agree to JA's suggestion to improve this. It's like the question when you want to disable the firewall. First line in the assistent says "ALL" which is logical correct but it is better understandable with the additional "(no firewall)" -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Minimal mageia install
2012/10/23 Bruno Cornec : > Helo, > > I'm in the process of redeploying automatically my firewall machine, > using Mageia. For that I'd like to have a very minimal install. > > However, I'm ending up with 580 packages, among them a lot of X11 > content, whereas I want a text base install only. I had the same experience with Mageia 1 - the lowest I could get was somewhere in the high 500. I spent some time tinkering with that but whatever I tried, whichever package I wanted to remove, I always ended up with the removal of part of the base system. In the end I gave up (possibly due to lack of knowledge) :( I just checked Olivier's suggestion, ending up with some 270 packages... -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Welcome Götz!
2012/10/23 Donald Stewart : > On 22 October 2012 22:15, Olivier Blin wrote: >> Hi, >> >> After uncountable years as a packager and maintainer in the Mandriva >> Linux distribution, providing a huge number of impeccable contributions, >> Götz Waschk is now joining us as a Mageia packager. >> >> Please welcome him aboard! >> >> -- >> Olivier Blin - blino > > Welcome, it really amazes me how many people have come over or come > back to the project. Its great to see. I know Götz in person because for the last 5-6 years I've been meeting him regularly on German Linuxtag. Last time he talked about the frustrating situation at Mandriva and I thought it will not take long until we see him here - here he is! :) Welcome!
Re: [Mageia-dev] Alpha 2 is very near
2012/10/12 Shlomi Fish : > Hi all, > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:33:51 +0200 > Anne Nicolas wrote: > >> Hi there >> >> That was a real alpha release! Bugs, flu, tests and tests and tests >> again... >> >> But alpha 2 is now very near. Please have a look in wiki page and add >> any information about versions and new softwares: >> > > I'm not singling the OP's message in particular, but since this is a common > mistake, I thought I'd highlight it. In English, "software" is an uncountable > noun and so one should not say "softwares" or "a software". But "(soft)warez" :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Support of grub2 in the installer/drakboot
2012/10/8 Felix Miata : > On 2012-10-08 11:45 (GMT-0300) Luiz Alberto Saba composed: > >>> is there any plans to add grub2 support ? is there someone already >>> working on >>> it ? > > >> Fedora 17, openSUSE 12.2 and ubuntu (don't remember the version) are >> already using it. > > > openSUSE retains Grub Legacy as an option, which I use on every > installation. YaST has yet to be updated to fully manage Grub2 > configuration. In distros that offer only a choice between Grub2 and no > bootloader I choose no bootloader every time. *buntu I quit even > experimenting with half because of its Grub2 headaches. Fedora I install > with no bootloader, and use Grub Legacy from openSUSE or Knoppix. Grub2 is > buggier than stink and far more complicated to maintain and use than Grub > Legacy on systems that don't need what Grub2 can do that Grub Legacy can't. Well, as long as the installer gives me a choice to put the bootloader into the root partition I don't mind whether Mageia uses grub-legacy or grub2. I'm using chainloader anyway. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Frank Griffin : > On 10/04/2012 11:29 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> Still the trust on a software filter is not the same as the trust in a >> visible separation. If you think there is no technical difference, this >> discussion is not just on technical of the issue. If I go into an empty room >> which is dark, everybody could tell me that the room is empty and I can't >> hurt myself by falling over some furniture - still I'd prefer the lights on. > > You're correct, and one of the points I'm trying to make is that while it is > reasonable to technically enable FOSS enthusiasts to install a FOSS-only > system easily, it is not reasonable to make things difficult for everyone > else simply to pander to FOSS political correctness. > > The same argument underlies the issue of an install process that caters to > both free and nonfree via a switch versus one that allows no nonfree > software on the install media or no nonfree repo to be considered by the > installer. In both cases, a FOSS enthusiast can have what he wants, but > I'm sure the enthusiast would be happier with the latter case, for all the > non-technical reasons you mention, including that it makes it more difficult > for others to do things of which he disapproves. > > If there's no technical difference between two approaches, we ought to pick > the one that works best for the greatest part of the user base. Yes, that's why I prefer the separation of free and non-free repos. IMHO opinion it is easier to have non-free visually out of the way for the FOSS enthousiasts and it's just one click (actually 2 including non-free/updates) for the users who want it all. Furthermore there is another reason to keep the repos separated: it is Mageias written intention to support and advocate FOSS. Separating non-free and FOSS is a visible demonstration of this intention. Mixing both in the same repo is the opposite. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Frank Griffin : > On 10/04/2012 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> >> Or he just forgot to add the tag - that's easier than to chose a >> repository on intention. >> > Doesn't the name of the license already appear in the packaging ? Why would > you need a new separate tag which could be forgotten ? Ah, that's just my imagination how this filter could work. If the filter searches for the license description and if all possible licenses are known to the filter, then the packagers are fine. Still the trust on a software filter is not the same as the trust in a visible separation. If you think there is no technical difference, this discussion is not just on technical of the issue. If I go into an empty room which is dark, everybody could tell me that the room is empty and I can't hurt myself by falling over some furniture - still I'd prefer the lights on. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Frank Griffin : > On 10/04/2012 10:54 AM, Johnny A. Solbu wrote: >> >> Because software have bugs, even filters, whereas physical separation is >> not prone to the same errors. > > > Sure it is. See my response to Wolfgang. > > >>> And if they don't trust us, they're reading the license themselves >>> anyway. >> >> That's not an easy task for commandline users. "urpmq -i foo" does not >> show the license tag. >> > > I didn't say it was easy, I said that anyone strongly interested in this who > doesn't trust us to get it right will be doing it, easy or hard. You do not seem to understand different levels in trust. There is no black OR white, rather shades of black and shades of white. Of course there is some trust in the packagers to place packages correctly in different branches depending on the licenses. But having all free/non-free packages in one repo, separated just by a software filter adds an additional level of trust in the packagers AND in the software filter. Well, enough said. I think I have stated my position and the reasons, I am not part of the decision making group anyway. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Frank Griffin : > On 10/04/2012 10:46 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> There are/were enough Mandriva mirrors who did not mirror PLF at all. > > > I'm well aware of that, since PLF wouldn't have existed otherwise. The > question concerned mirroring nonfree, not tainted. The reasons for not > mirroring each of these is quite different. I understand. > Sorry, I don't buy that. If a packager omits a tag or chooses a wrong > repository, the reason is probably the same - he didn't read the license and > that means the package is going to be misfiled under either scheme. Or he just forgot to add the tag - that's easier than to chose a repository on intention. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Guillaume Rousse : > > This kind of hypothetical 'selective mirror admin' is quite similar for me > to the mythical 'average joe user': a practical justification to any kind of > argument :) Pardon me but do vou know all mirror maintainers that you can say that? We (mandrivauser.de) discussed the contents of our mirror and intentionally did not mirror PLF. One example - I do not think that we are a myth and do not believe that we are the only exception. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Frank Griffin : > On 10/04/2012 02:29 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> My position about mixing non-free into the core repository with a filter: >> That may be technically possible to integrate into urpm* and rpmdrake. But >> it will create confusion and problems. > > >> 1. Problems for mirror maintainers who do not want to mirror non-free (if >> we cater to the free-enthousiasts at other issues we have to do it here as >> well). > > > That's a good point, but are there actually any of these ? Was there any > PLF mirror that only hosted free ? There are/were enough Mandriva mirrors who did not mirror PLF at all. >> 2. Problems for users who may not trust the filter system, they rather >> trust a visual separation. > > > I can't see this. If they trust us to place the package correctly to start > with, why wouldn't they trust a filter we write ? And if they don't trust > us, they're reading the license themselves anyway. A built-in filter in a software is not the same as a separate branch. It is a difference between seeing free and non-free in separate branches and just believe that there is a filter and that it is working all the time. There have been bugs in urpmi, why do you regard that filter to be perfect per se? It's a difference between a developer/packager who uploads a package to a branch by intention and a packager who just adds a tag (or may have forgotten to add it). A packager who just forgot to add a dependency is no hoax - why do you think a packager who forgot to add a tag is a hoax? Or a myth? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/4 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Wednesday 03 October 2012 16:07, Guillaume Rousse wrote: >> - how many people for using 'non-free' ? > > I vote for non-free And I vote for tainted. My position about mixing non-free into the core repository with a filter: That may be technically possible to integrate into urpm* and rpmdrake. But it will create confusion and problems. 1. Problems for mirror maintainers who do not want to mirror non-free (if we cater to the free-enthousiasts at other issues we have to do it here as well). 2. Problems for users who may not trust the filter system, they rather trust a visual separation. As for the repositories core and non-free it is just right as it is - userfriendly and easy to understand for everybody. And I really wonder why this should be changed anyway. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Final set of isos for Mageia 3
2012/10/3 zezinho : > Em 02-10-2012 17:58, Anne Nicolas escreveu: >> >> Hi there >> >> So as planned when starting discussion, here is the final set of isos >> that will be built for Mageia 3. We have listed all the proposals and >> explanations (from both this ML and forums) to find a list that would >> satisfy most of Mageia users. >> >> Here is the list (Thanks MrsB for doing it first :) ): >> > > Thank you both for this list. I feel it comes with almost every ideas that > came along. Let's see if Mageia 3 will rock in his medias. > > Still, we could remember anyone that draklive is also open-source, so any > rockin' media idea can be tested without consensus. Where is the better > updated doc about it? (if it exists) I volunteer to do it if it does not > exist at the moment. That would be great - this discussion is a great motivation to dive into creating isos but I need documentation to start learning. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 PhilippeDidier : >> > To sumarize : ;) Thx for this nice sumup, including your comments! +1 -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Final set of isos for Mageia 3
2012/10/2 Rémi Verschelde : > 2012/10/2 Wolfgang Bornath : >> 2012/10/2 Rémi Verschelde : >>> >>> But I guess I may have misunderstood your point. >> >> Yes, you did :) >> >> 1. My proposal was in no way ro replace all ISOs. There must be some >> "master" ISOs which went through Mageia QA and are distributed as >> "official" ISOs. But the number of different ISOs can be reduced >> further than currently planned. >> >> 2. Of course one who wants to create a custom ISO has to install >> Mageia first - this he could do using the smallest way there is, >> another live cd, no matter which flavor. >> >> But the advantage is, from this one download and installation he can >> produce any flavor for any purpose he wants. Example: >> >> I would only need one English live cd. From this I could install the >> system. And then I could create >> - live cd with German with the DE of my choice and the software of my >> personal choice >> - live cd in German for German events and to demonstrate to friends >> - live cd in German for a magazine, customized to their wishes, >> etc. >> >> All this also helps to keep everybody satisfied, not only the part who >> is satisfied with the original Mageia ISOs. As such it would reduce >> work for Mageia. >> >> -- >> wobo > > Danke für die Erklärung :) > > Then that makes sense and I can see your point. The “Live-CD > generator” would be used by advanced users, e.g. by Mageia > contributors wanting to create a set of German LiveCDs for the > LinuxTag in Berlin, and the average users could still download our > tested ISOs with all locales on the LiveDVDs / DVDs or in English on > the LiveCDs. Or we could do the obvioous: - local user organisations could provide localized live cd isos on their servers, - supporters in such organisations or local "Mageia Usergroups" could make customized ISOs on request - They could have workshops at events on how to roll your own, etc. There are lots of possibilities, each one of them an improvement of "marketing". :) All it needs is either such a userfriendly system or at least an easy understandable How-To in the Mageia wiki. In the German MandrivaUser wiki we did that with a special Mandriva release. It's just an idea that came to my mind because I have a problem with the list of planned MGA3 isos (I wrote about that earlier in this thread). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Final set of isos for Mageia 3
2012/10/2 Rémi Verschelde : > > But I guess I may have misunderstood your point. Yes, you did :) 1. My proposal was in no way ro replace all ISOs. There must be some "master" ISOs which went through Mageia QA and are distributed as "official" ISOs. But the number of different ISOs can be reduced further than currently planned. 2. Of course one who wants to create a custom ISO has to install Mageia first - this he could do using the smallest way there is, another live cd, no matter which flavor. But the advantage is, from this one download and installation he can produce any flavor for any purpose he wants. Example: I would only need one English live cd. From this I could install the system. And then I could create - live cd with German with the DE of my choice and the software of my personal choice - live cd in German for German events and to demonstrate to friends - live cd in German for a magazine, customized to their wishes, etc. All this also helps to keep everybody satisfied, not only the part who is satisfied with the original Mageia ISOs. As such it would reduce work for Mageia. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Final set of isos for Mageia 3
2012/10/2 Anne Nicolas : > > Here is the list (Thanks MrsB for doing it first :) ): As everybody can see from the afore mentioned discussion as well as by the answers to this announcement it is not possible to cater to each and everybody's needs & wishes. The solution for everybody (makers and users) would be a "Joe User-friendly" way to roll your own, ideal would be a GUI but CLI is also possible. Maybe a script which - lists all packages including dependencies (as the individual packages selection does) so you can pack a customized live CD - including the system related stuff with hardware recognition and drivers (as a normal live cd) - including the "installer from live system to harddisk" - at the end of the package selection hands out the size of the ISO And at the end it wraps up everything resulting in a customized Mageia live cd. This way Mageia would only have to distribute even less ISOs than currently planned (saving QA time) and everybody can roll his/her own flavor, depending on the purpose (showing and hand-out at events, in your environment, for special projects, etc.) I know that there is a way to do this already but I'm talking about a userfriendly "interactive tool" for the not so experienced. Looking at the work&time Mageia could save in future it may be a reasonable suggestion. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Final set of isos for Mageia 3
2012/10/2 Anne Nicolas : > Hi there > > So as planned when starting discussion, here is the final set of isos that > will be built for Mageia 3. We have listed all the proposals and > explanations (from both this ML and forums) to find a list that would > satisfy most of Mageia users. > > Here is the list (Thanks MrsB for doing it first :) ): > > 2 liveCDs: > > - GNOME 700M i586 - english only - Nonfree > - KDE 700M i586 - english only - Nonfree > > These are mainly targetted for distribution during events or for Newspapers What about events and newspapers outside of the USA and UK? You don't expect us (for ex: in Germany) to demonstrate Mageia in a foreign language or German magazines to distribute cover cds with Mageia in a foreign language? Of course this goes for all other countries as well. This proposal may have received a majority of "votes" because residents of USA and UK are the majority of participants in the mailing list. Everybody else (the majority of Mageia promoters) would have no live cds but will need to use the DVDs. Pls consider instead cds which cover the main languages (English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portoguese). EN covering North America and India, Spanish+Portoguese covering all of South America, French and English covering most of Africa, all 6 covering most of Europe. Which make at least more than 2 of the 3 major areas instead of North America and UK. Before there were live cds (700MB) with 6 and more langages, so a cd with these 6 instead of one language would not make a difference, or will Mageia 3 need that much more space than Mageia 2? > 4 liveDVDs: > > - GNOME DVD i586 - all locales - Nonfree > - GNOME DVD x86_64 - all locales - Nonfree > - KDE DVD i586 - all locales - Nonfree > - KDE DVD x86_64 - all locales - Nonfree > > Classic Installation ISOs > > - LXDE DualCD - all locales - Free only > - DVD i586- all locales - Free/Nonfree > - DVD x86_64 - all locales - Free/Nonfree > > DVDs will propose by default 100% free software installation. Users will be > asked if he wants to use non free drivers. This is still to be done inside > drakx installer and will not be available yet for alpha 2 release. > > Cheers > -- > Anne > http://mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 Johnny A. Solbu : > Not according to official mageia documentation and policy it doesn't. > > https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Release_Notes#The_Mageia_online_repositories > That page states that there is No nonfree software in tainted. > > https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mirrors_policy#tainted > Current policy states that nonfree packages are Not allowed in tainted. That > includes patented nonfree packages. > > Then we also need to change current guidelines as to what goes in tainted. This is exactly why we are discussing it here ! :) These guidelines were set when this special case (faac) did not come to mind. When it did, this discussion started. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Tuesday 02 October 2012 14:58, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> IMHO a package is "not free" anyway as soon as it qualifies for >> "tainted" - whatever reason. > > That is subject to jurisdiction. I happen to live in a country where software > patents doesn't apply. Therefore patented software is Free software in my > country. And I believe that is the situation in several european countries, > and other countries around the world. Even FSF and Stallman says this. If the > software is not patented in "your" country, it is Free software in "your" > country. Yes, that's correct. But we should look at the reason why we decided to have this "tainted" repositiry in the first place (was decided after a lengthy discussion right at the beginning). We have it because Mageia is not only for those countries who do not recognize software patents, it is for the whole world. The "tainted" repository was implemented to make it easy for those who do live in countries like USA and others to be able to avoid this software which may be illegal in their country. The alternative would be for them to have to search the whole "core" repository for such software to be able to avoid it. Same goes for mirrors - we implemented the "tainted" repo to make it easy for mirror maintainers to offer this software on their servers or not. We give them the opportunity of easy distinction, what they actually do is up to them. If all Mageia users were living in France or the same kind of jurisdiction we would not need the tainted repo at all. So, the reason we have tainted is not caused by any official definitions but it is a service for users and mirror maintainers who are not as lucky as you and me. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 James Kerr : > On 02/10/2012 13:58, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> 2012/10/2 James Kerr : >>> >>> On 02/10/2012 12:26, Frank Griffin wrote: >>> >>>> At least for my part, I always viewed tainted as being the equivalent of >>>> PLF, >>> >>> >>> >>> PLF had both free and non-free repo's. >>> >>> If you include both free and non-free in tainted, which is probably the >>> "least bad" solution, then there needs to be a way for FOSS enthusiasts >>> (who >>> choose to do so) to avoid the non-free packages - perhaps a statement in >>> the >>> package description would suffice. >> >> >> Well, are you saying that tainted includes free packages although they >> are subject to a patent? > > > Yes. Those are the only packages that are included at present in tainted. > The fact that a package includes software that may be encumbered by patent > claims does not make it non-free. Oops, sorry, I just realize that my question reads just the opposite of what I wanted to say (damn foreign langauge! :) To make my position clearer: IMHO a package is not free when it is subject to a patent. It may be not "non-free" per definition of "non-free software" but is not free nevertheless when it bears any restrictions because of patents or (in some countries) legal issues. It is a difference by strict definition but it makes no difference in practical terms and usage. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 James Kerr : > On 02/10/2012 12:26, Frank Griffin wrote: > >> At least for my part, I always viewed tainted as being the equivalent of >> PLF, > > > PLF had both free and non-free repo's. > > If you include both free and non-free in tainted, which is probably the > "least bad" solution, then there needs to be a way for FOSS enthusiasts (who > choose to do so) to avoid the non-free packages - perhaps a statement in the > package description would suffice. Well, are you saying that tainted includes free packages although they are subject to a patent? 'cause that's the only reason I could think of a FOSS enthousiast would like them to be separated from the non-free packages in "tainted". Or the other way 'round. IMHO a package is "not free" anyway as soon as it qualifies for "tainted" - whatever reason. That's why I call the distinction "beaurocratic" and the discussion "academic" -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] rehashing the faac issue
2012/10/2 Frank Griffin : > On 10/02/2012 04:03 AM, Guillaume Rousse wrote: >> >> >> Given the importance of this package for several multimedia-related >> software (it is a mandatory dependency for cinerella, for instance), I think >> it's time to revisit this decision, and rather look for a pragmatic solution >> rather than a merely bureaucratic one. > > > I read the links, but I think the discussion would benefit from a statement > of exactly why people don't want nonfree software in tainted. > > At least for my part, I always viewed tainted as being the equivalent of > PLF, i. e. we'll put this stuff in there because it's legal where we are, > and you decide whether you want to mirror it and make your own decision as > to whether you want to use it. I thought the whole point was to segregate > tainted stuff from everything else so that mirror maintainers could avoid > tainted yet still mirror the mainstream repos. > > If that's true, and tainted is just a dumping ground for stuff that we have > legal or philosophical problems putting anywhere else, then I don't get the > free/nonfree issue. We have software in 4 different flavors: 1. free software (FOSS), most of them distributed under any of the GPL versions 2. non-free software, meaning they can not distributed under such licenses as the GPL. Mostly it's closed source software (like firmware for devices like graphic cards or some wifi chips) 3. tainted software, this is cost-free but patented software. In countries which obey software patents (like USA) it is not allowed to be distributed. 4. then there is software which is non-free AND tainted. Of course this special point #4 is a bit bureaucratic. As "tainted" (aka patented) is the stronger restriction than non-free we should also place faac into "tainted" as it matches the sentence from the MGA1 notes anyway (as quoted in Christian's mail). In any way I agree that this more or less academical dispute about faac should not make it impossible to make faac available. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] The shiny new Control Center
2012/10/1 Angelo Naselli : > > Il 01/10/2012 11:48, Wolfgang Bornath ha scritto: >> May be I misunderstand this sentence, but the new mcc will not >> carry any "yastish" ingredients or behavior? (From SuSE 4.4.1 on >> until today YaST has always been one outstanding reason for me to >> not use SuSE) > > Well the libyui should not have been related to yast only Thx both, Angelo and Steven, to clear that up. @Angelo: My question was not a sign of negative approach, it's only that "YaST" is one of those words which make me shiver! :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] The shiny new Control Center
2012/10/1 Angelo Naselli : > > Good point, but as a developer i could say we can make it > configurable. I mean a generic panel can have the name into its > configuration file and shown on title, while to run it a script > called mcc can run "generic_panel -c mcc.conf" for instance, > we can also fix that as default forcing mageia behaviour :) Sure, as long as the name "mcc" shows up in reviews and in the user's minds and not something like "foobar, an overworked new version of the formerly called mcc". > Said that we're using libyui, that is a work in progress abstraction > for the Suse Yast panel, so we're not reinvent the wheel :) May be I misunderstand this sentence, but the new mcc will not carry any "yastish" ingredients or behavior? (From SuSE 4.4.1 on until today YaST has always been one outstanding reason for me to not use SuSE) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] The shiny new Control Center
2012/10/1 Steven Tucker : > On 01/10/12 04:49, Liam R E Quin wrote: >> >> On Sun, 2012-09-30 at 20:13 +0200, Angelo Naselli wrote: >> >>> Well to be honest that has been already discussed via irc, >>> and it seems to be as you said a good thing, the real >>> question is how to call it :) >> >> The usual choices are >> 1. an acronym few people will remember >> e.g. miascm (multi-interface system control module) >> >> 2. a cute name with no relation to function >> e.g. WandWaver >> >> 3. a name that suggests purpose, perhaps with an abbreviation for the >> commandline >> e.g. Configuration and User Management >> and, er, "conman" as a command (not cum, I think). >> >> I can review the Perl code a little if it helps - my goal with Perl is >> always to write something that can be read and changed later, even if >> it's less "Perl-like" as a result. E.g. send me a file or two. >> >> Liam >> > Thank you Liam, I will take you up on that once I get a little bit more > done. > I haven't taken on doing things the "Perl way" for the very reasons you > state (loops for example are more C like). Pardon me for jumping in although I'm not a developer. I agree that for the time being (as long as the "old" mcc is in the repos) a different name is unavoidable, even if it's just "mcc2". But when a switch to the new version this new version should inherit the name "Mageia Control Center/Centre". The main reason for that: This unique type of "configuration mall" has been one feature which has been regarded as one of the most valued of Mandake/Mandriva/Mageia in all reviews and all comments about the distribution. Over 10 years it has been a recognized landmark for these distributions. As such it should remain under the same name. The name will neither make it more difficult nor more easy for other distributions to use it (as has been said in this thread), we also have tools or whatever adopted from other distributions (like Fedora) and they are still carrying their name, even with "fedora" as prefix. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: Re: M3 won't complete boot after update
2012/9/26 Jani Välimaa : > On 26.09.2012 18:00, Anne Wilson wrote: >> Colin, I sent this last evening, but I haven't seen it on-list. For >> some reason a fair number of my messages don't get through. Could it >> be that the digital signing worries the filters? >> >> Anne >> > > I can see your (previous) mail, just like I saw the previous mail you > resend. > > Are you using GMail? I did not see the previous mail, I use gmail. But I see that other people (like Marja) use to gpg-sign their mails to the lists, so this can't be the cause. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/20 Donald Stewart : > On 20 September 2012 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) > > The statement that the uk has superfast internet for all isn't > accurate, at the present the uk still contains Scotland. That statement was irony, see the smiley :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/20 Anne Wilson : > On 20/09/12 11:19, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the >> cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation >> with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular >> because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. > > Yes, I suspect that this need will be very variable, geographically. Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) > Something apparently for nothing is always attractive to many, but the > eco lobby is becoming increasingly important. I'm not advocating > dropping the media disks for now, just being aware that the situation > needs to be watched for the future. Well, for computer magazines it's not "for nothing". The popular magazines are coming in 2 flavors, one with cover media, the other without. Guess which is cheaper. > Irrelevant to this discussion, but I feel increasingly guilty about > disposing of frequent "bumper *buntu distro" disks. Since I subscribe > the several magazines they have been coming in threes. That's a lot > of disks in a year. That is the reason I stopped subscribing years ago. I only buy a magazine if I am interested in an article or I want the cover media. So I don't feel guilty. Anyhow, I don't think that this part of the discussion even has an impact on cover media. As long as we have a live DVD or CD (with German language) the German magazines will get what they need (this goes for all other countries as well). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Anne Wilson : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 19/09/12 15:53, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) >> Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there >> will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't >> forget, this is cost free advertizing! > > Interestingly, one of the leading UK computer magazines has just > stopped including cover media. The reviews are still there, as is the > "What's on this month's disk", but the disk is downloadable. This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. Cover media are a measurable cause of increasing sales - as this chief editor told, issues with popular software on a DVD sell more copies than without. Even other kinds of media (tv program, lifestyle magazines and others) have taken to adding DVDs on their issues. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Thorsten van Lil : > Am 19.09.2012 16:53, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >> >> 2012/9/19 Romain d'Alverny: >>> >>> 2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install >>>>> optional proprietary software" in the installer. >>>> >>>> >>>> This allows for example magazines to distribute it >>> >>> >>> Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) >> >> >> Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there >> will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't forget, >> this is cost free advertizing! >> >> My view: >> >> - Free DVD (32/64) with a proper installer - distributing only live >> media is a bad habit of some distributors, let's make a difference >> there! As we have support of the idea of free software written in our >> values we should stick to that. In addition to that we could include >> non-free firmware in a part of the DVD, to be activated in the >> installer (opt-in). >> >> - 4 life ISOs (Gnome& KDE, 32& 64) for USB sticks (up to 1GB), they >> work for all kinds of machines, even such without optical drives. The >> additional space would be enough to include all langs. >> >> - boot.iso, this is done anyway, so it's no extra work >>r > Looks very similar to my proposal, doesn't it? :) Yes, I took the proposal of the 4 life isos from your mail, but only to make my view complete. My main concern is the reasoning in favor of the Free DVD. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Romain d'Alverny : > 2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan : >> On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install >>> optional proprietary software" in the installer. >> >> This allows for example magazines to distribute it > > Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't forget, this is cost free advertizing! My view: - Free DVD (32/64) with a proper installer - distributing only live media is a bad habit of some distributors, let's make a difference there! As we have support of the idea of free software written in our values we should stick to that. In addition to that we could include non-free firmware in a part of the DVD, to be activated in the installer (opt-in). - 4 life ISOs (Gnome & KDE, 32 & 64) for USB sticks (up to 1GB), they work for all kinds of machines, even such without optical drives. The additional space would be enough to include all langs. - boot.iso, this is done anyway, so it's no extra work -- wobo -
Re: [Mageia-dev] unity on mageia
2012/9/14 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Friday 14 September 2012 14:03, Damian Ivanov wrote: >> - OBS is the most widely-used build system > > In my view, that's not a good argument. The fact that most people do one > thing does not mean that we should do it. > > I remember I used to use the same argument when agruing with my mother when I > wanted something. > "Everyone else have/use it", to which she replied: "I'm not everyone else's > mother" :-)= Without being a developer myself I agree to Colin. The Mageia build system took time and sweat to be built up to a point where all people involved know their way with it. It has no annoying flaws (as far as I can tell from reading this list) nor is it obsolete like some unmaintained software package. Coming from this I think there has to be some very good and irresistable reasons to switch to another system, especially when most of the people would have to go back to point 1 to start to work with it. Better reasons than "all my friends have it". -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 2 can be turned to cauldron actually?
2012/8/27 Matteo : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 27/08/2012 16:23, Luiz Alberto Saba wrote: >> Hi guys >> >> I've done a fresh mageia 2 install (x86_64) to test a new ssd. Can >> I change the resitories to cauldron and do a urpmi --auto-select >> or it will not work? >> >> Thanks >> >> Luiz Alberto Saba >> > Yes, you can but you have to pay attention to [1] > > Regards, > > [1] https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UsrMove Because of this change I'd rather install MGA3 Alpha1 (due Sept 4) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] [soft-commits] [4436] german keyboard: default to variant with enabled deadkeys instead of "nodeadkeys variant" ( mga#3791)
2012/7/30 Thierry Vignaud :
> On 28 June 2012 02:51, Thierry Vignaud wrote:
> german keyboard: default to variant with enabled deadkeys instead
> of"nodeadkeys variant" (mga#3791)
Oups, why that?
As far as I'm concerned no deadkeys is the default for German users and
that's good!
Any reasons for this change?
>>>
>>> Call it "Competitive analysis" if you want. Keyboards comes with those
>>> little keys that are meant to produce accented characters in
>>> combination with regular letters, and this how it works on Windows,
>>> the platform most users will migrate from, and also on Mac OS X.
>>>
>>> Regular users don't have any use of stand-alone-accent-characters. And
>>> even with deadkeys it is easy to produce the standalone accent by just
>>> pressing the key twice (so you can get backticks easily).
>>> If you're a programmer and are using a nodeadkeys variant for that
>>> reason, you're not the target population of a suggested default. (If
>>> you know what is meant with "deadkeys" and "nodeadkeys", you're not in
>>> target of that dialog, and have the knowledge to not accept the
>>> default, but choose the nodeadkeys variant that is listed right next
>>> to the regular variant).
>>>
>>> The variant with deadkeys is called "German" without any addition for
>>> a reason. If nodeadkeys were the expected/more common choice, then it
>>> would be "German (international)" or "German (deadkeys)", like it is
>>> the case for the US-variants.
>>
>> So Olivier, do you agree with that change or not?
It may be logical but German users have been taught to use
"nodeadkeys" for ages. Changing this now just because of semantics
does not seem to be a wise move (I always use "German"). But OTOH it
is not such a big thing. It will cause the usual number of questions
in the forums ("MAG3 breaks my keyboard!") but this will vanish over
the years. :)
--
wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Remove upgrade functionnality in installer
2012/6/23 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Anne Nicolas at 23/06/12 12:50 did gyre and gimble: >> Hi there >> >> I'd like to propose this one: >> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RemoveUpgradeInstaller > > Hmm, I wonder if it should be fully removed, or whether it should just > require that an internet connection is present such that anything not > present on the media can be downloaded as needed. This could be a good > compromise? This function is already available at the beginning of the installer (adding an additional media). The issue with the upgrade function at the end of the installer is: "it is not working properly even if a functioning network is available". -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] GNOME plans
2012/6/5 Colin Guthrie : > You've maybe not been following the Gnome OS stuff then? I have and it's > very interesting. As you know I've been a KDE developer for many years, > but I much prefer the Gnome approach to lower level things. People > involved in the Gnome project are very supportive to drive forward the > core underlying plumbing layers rather than just build abstraction > layers on top to rationalise the underlying insanity. I certainly have > much more affinity to this approach to engineering (as you can likely > tell when I share my opinions on stuff) than the KDE approach which does > quite often paper over the cracks rather than solve the underlying problems. > > So I don't disagree with you with regards to how we, as a distro, should > treat Gnome, but do keep in mind that "Gnome OS" as a whole is something > we will all benefit from - this covers everything from how early boot > should deal with user interaction and encryption passwords etc (i.e. > plymouth) right up to GDM and X11 initialisation (including how to > handle things when it fails) and thus the desktop environment "Gnome" > will come with certain requirements for the underlying system on which > it runs. In most (if not all) cases, these requirements will be for the > general good anyway. I certainly agree on your first paragraph (cause it makes sense and the "Gnome way" is promising and it is trying to achieve a Good Thing(tm)). Except for one point i already pointed out: a good part (if not the larger part) of the users are not using Gnome. So, whatever Gnome includes in its settings - if it is something which affects the whole system (like "everything from how early boot should deal with user interaction and encryption passwords etc (i.e. plymouth) right up to GDM and X11 initialisation (including how to handle things when it fails)") then distributions still need the tools for these same tasks bnecause of users who do not use Gnome. If this tool for "non Gnomers" is such a central toolbox like the MCC a duplication of tools for the same task is unavoidable with users who use Gnome (as we have now), because you can't stop this system being installed on the same system as Gnome. Also keep in mind that many of those tools are needed before the desktop environment is even installed. So, what I'd rather see is a common cross-distribution toolbox outside of the desktop environments taking care of system business than a common toolbox inside a certain desktop environment which is not available if you do not use that desktop environment. This has not much to do with development but more with logic and reality. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] GNOME plans
2012/6/4 Olav Vitters : > On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 08:17:39PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> 2012/6/4 Olav Vitters : >> > On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 05:51:11PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> Leaving out the crap about "change your wording" and whatever. > [..] >> BTW: Pls, calm down a bit, I am quite amazed how emotional you react >> to this. It's software, not human rights. > > I indeed get annoyed if words such as "crap" are used in discussions. Yes, me too when someone starts with compalining about my wording. > Now you've seem to think I'm suggesting that every desktop implements > their on tool. But that is not what I've suggested. No, you suggest to implement everything into one desktop's tool. > Two things: > - One thing that is shared across distributions > - Another thing implemented in System Settings > > These are two separate things. This does NOT require a XFCE "system > settings" tool, as it would be covered by the other tool. If you have > *one* tool that is shared across distributions, then there must be > standards to deal with the differences. Standards that can be used by > the (GNOME) System Settings, more or less duplicating what the other > tool does. Another possibility that more things are agreed upon between > distributions, which can then be implemented in System Settings, but is > still handled by various distro specific tools (MCC, etc) as well. Yes, perfect. That's the situation we almost have: - Desktops have the tools for their own settings (window behavior, themes, behavior of their own applications, etc.). These are the same no matter which distribution you are using (if the distribution do not change too much when inplementing the desktop). Now all we need is a selection of tools such as MCC or YaST or whatever you may call it for all distributions to do the system settings (hardware, security features, whatever there is in MCC or YaST). Of course there may be difficulties because of different package managements but the graphical tools for software management should not be too hard to "unite". Then we are at the point you are heading at, no? As much uniformity as possible. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] GNOME plans
This chapter is wrong: > BTW: We are seeing this already in the forums: people see a setting in > MCC and then the same in KDE/Gnome. They will obviously use the first > they see - if that differs to the setting in MCC confusion is on the > way. The las part should read: "- if that differs to the setting in the other tool confusion is on the way." -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] GNOME plans
2012/6/4 Olav Vitters : > On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 05:51:11PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: Leaving out the crap about "change your wording" and whatever. > - Maybe to clarify my point: When using GNOME, there should not be any > need to resort to a distro specific configuration tool. E.g. xorg > should be setup automatically, not require any distro assistance. It > is long term and difficult. Ok, no problem. But what if a user decides NOT to use Gnome (what an idea!)? What should users use for configuration? > You clearly care about MCC, cool. But respect other people's opinion. Actually I like MCC but this is not the point, it could be any similar tool. I do respect other's opinions as long as these others respect the necessity of such a tool for system-wide settings independent from desktop-environments. > To make clear: I think it is stupid that various distributions have > their own specific configuration tools. That should be shared across > distributions. Od course I agree to that, never said anything against it. But I also think it is stupid to do system settings inside a configuration tool of a desktop environment. Please think again what that means: If there is no MCC (or any other central setting tool for the Linux system): - a Gnome user will use gnome-settings - a kde user will use kde-settings - a lxde user will use and so on ad infinitum. And what if he has Gnome and KDE, having both their own system settings (hardware, msec, network settings, software management, etc.)? BTW: We are seeing this already in the forums: people see a setting in MCC and then the same in KDE/Gnome. They will obviously use the first they see - if that differs to the setting in MCC confusion is on the way. > Secondly, I think you should be able to do everything from within System > Settings. Yes, as long as it is not a setting tool for the settings of a desktop-environment which is not available when you do not use that desktop-environment. BTW: Pls, calm down a bit, I am quite amazed how emotional you react to this. It's software, not human rights. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] GNOME plans
2012/6/4 Olav Vitters : > On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 09:13:53PM +0800, Kira wrote: >> Well, I think the main point of arguing about this issue is that most >> people is mostly used to other input method and they don't care about >> iBus... >> >> Still 2 points to be answered especially for Mageia here: >> >> 1. In MCC, we can set up the input method in localedrake, and this >> setting would be system-wide except GNOME about 3.6+. This should be >> mentioned, because it would destroy the unified user experience. > > As said, I don't code. And unified experience I care for GNOME, that it > works consistently. I care about freedesktop.org standards. I don't care > for differences between distributions. E.g. MCC is great, but I prefer > if it didn't exist. MCC is only Mageia/Mandriva, another distro has > other things, etc. > I prefer something in gnome-control-center. And here we have the main point, the difference between Gnome and everybody else. Gnome is a mere desktop environment, nothing more and nothing less. Period. And it is not the only desktop environment nor the only way a user can use the desktop. So the gnome-control-center must restrict itself to settings which concern Gnome, nothing else. Same as the KDE control-center should do. Very simple and easy to understand reason: Not everbody uses Gnome or KDE. If system settings will be done by Gnome and KDE control-centers, we'd still need yet another "setting-center" for people who do not use Gnome nor KDE. Simple logic that such a diversity makes no sense at all. It would only make sense if Gnome was a Linux system of its own. Which it is clearly not. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
AL13N wrote earlier: > For some of you, stuff you've known for ages is worthless now and you go back > to being a noob (for this sort of thing) and will have to relearn a different > way. The change here is new and needs a different way, yes. Nothing against that. But the same result has been reached before in a far easier way, it's not only a new way, it's a more complicated way. That's the point. 2012/6/3 Sander Lepik : > 03.06.2012 20:49, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: >> Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from "5" to "3", is much easier >> to remember than changing a symlink to >> "/lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target", especially when explaning this to a >> not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the >> moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) >> The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= >> > Is there anyone who stops you to contribute a script that does this for the > user? Yes, you see that correctly: a script which is needed because the proper way is a regression in usability :) Don't misunderstand me - if this change is needed because of another change then it's ok by me. But that does not mean I have to be over enthousisastic about something which makes things not easier but quite the contrary. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 03/06/12 17:12 did gyre and gimble: >> 2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie : >>> 'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble: >>>> I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the >>>> level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in >>>> Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO >>>> undesirable, behavior from previous versions. >>>> >>>> Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? >>>> >>>> The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get >>>> in without a password... Must be something new in system D >>> >>> /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. >>> >>> For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done >>> automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line >>> to support "runlevel 1"). >> >> Ok, convinced. >> But if /etc/inittab is not used any more, where do I change initial >> runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to >> change the default runlevel. > > The tools in drak* still let you configure this, so that's the "easy" way. > > For real men (and women), we just change the > /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target > we want to use by default. > > For ad-hoc changes you can pass systemd.unit=foo.target on the kernel > command line or just append a runlevel number or the words "single" or > "failsafe" as before. I knew there will be regressions in usage. No more easy change with sed! :) Or: I feel educated to use the GUIs! Thx -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble: >> I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the >> level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in >> Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO >> undesirable, behavior from previous versions. >> >> Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? >> >> The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get >> in without a password... Must be something new in system D > > /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. > > For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done > automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line > to support "runlevel 1"). Ok, convinced. But if /etc/inittab is not used any more, where do I change initial runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to change the default runlevel. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 AL13N : > Op zondag 3 juni 2012 14:04:07 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: >> 2012/6/3 Jani Välimaa : >> > On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: >> >> I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and >> >> unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing >> >> the point? >> > >> > New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers >> > from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing >> > list address and then erased the message box. >> > >> > To: Mageia development mailing-list >> > References: <4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com> >> > In-Reply-To: <4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com> >> >> Well, normally I do not look at the extended header. In my mailer the >> message by Richard came in as new message, not within an older thread. >> That's why I also replied that I do not see any hijacked Thread. >> >> Looking at the references show 2 references but i never received the >> mails with these references. > [...] > > it's Anne's mail with subject: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 2 and Cauldron updated with > proper design Ok, I received that. Conclusion: My mail client (Googlemail online) does not honor references, splits threads by subject only. New experience. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Jani Välimaa : > On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: >> I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and >> unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing >> the point? >> > > New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers > from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing > list address and then erased the message box. > > To: Mageia development mailing-list > References: <4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com> > In-Reply-To: <4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com> Well, normally I do not look at the extended header. In my mailer the message by Richard came in as new message, not within an older thread. That's why I also replied that I do not see any hijacked Thread. Looking at the references show 2 references but i never received the mails with these references. -- wobo >> >> On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: >>> On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D >>> >>> This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads. >> >
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Richard Couture : > I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and > unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the > point? I don't see a hijacked thread either. -- wobo > > > Richard > > > On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: >> >> On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: >>> >>> I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the >>> level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in >>> Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO >>> undesirable, behavior from previous versions. >>> >>> Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? >>> >>> The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get >>> in without a password... Must be something new in system D >>> >> >> This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads. > > > -- > LinuxCabal Asociación Civil > Ing. Richard Couture > Novell CNE, ECNE, MCNE > HP/Compaq ASE > Tel.: (+52) (333) 145-2638 > Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7505 > Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7506 > Web: http://www.LinuxCabal.org > E-Mail: r...@linuxcabal.org > Hosted en la nube Cloud Sigma - www.CloudSigma.com > > AVISO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD: Este correo electrónico, incluyendo en su caso, > los archivos adjuntos al mismo, pueden contener información de carácter > confidencial y/o privilegiada, y se envían a la atención única y > exclusivamente de la persona y/o entidad a quien va dirigido. La copia, > revisión, uso, revelación y/o distribución de dicha información confidencial > sin la autorización por escrito de LinuxCabal está prohibida. Si usted no es > el destinatario a quien se dirige el presente correo, favor de contactar al > remitente respondiendo al presente correo y eliminar el correo original > incluyendo sus archivos, así como cualesquiera copia del mismo. Mediante la > recepción del presente correo usted reconoce y acepta que en caso de > incumplimiento de su parte y/o de sus representantes a los términos antes > mencionados, LinuxCabal tendrá derecho a los daños y perjuicios que esto le > cause. >
Re: [Mageia-dev] Linuxtag tickets
2012/5/12 Oliver Burger : > Hi there, > > soon Linuxtag in Berlin will open its doors (May 23rd-26th). I have gotten > 16 free eTickets I can give out to whoever I want. If those are not enough there are more here as well. :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] help with update/testing needed / freeze exception for me-tv
2012/5/11 Wolfgang Bornath : > 2012/5/9 Florian Hubold : >> Am 09.05.2012 12:44, schrieb Colin Guthrie: >>> 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 05/05/12 21:06 did gyre and gimble: >>>> 2012/5/5 Wolfgang Bornath : >>>>> 2012/5/5 Florian Hubold : >>>>>> Am 05.05.2012 21:04, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >>>>>>> 2012/4/4 Florian Hubold : >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> me-tv (a really nice and easy to-use DVB viewer with EPG guide) >>>>>>>> totally went under my radar and it has not been updated nor >>>>>>>> rebuild yet for cauldron since quite some time, seems i forgot >>>>>>>> to commit my local update to 2.x branch, and me-tv was not >>>>>>>> covered by check.mageia.org updates report, and i've to update >>>>>>>> it when i was still apprentice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But as me-tv development was suspended, and now restarted >>>>>>>> (2.0 branch was complete rewrite, with differing features, f.ex. >>>>>>>> server/client based) so that 1.4 branch is the followup to what >>>>>>>> we have in cauldron: https://launchpad.net/me-tv/+announcement/9377 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FWIW, me-tv-1.3.6 in cauldron was built last time beginning of last >>>>>>>> july. >>>>>>>> I'd like to get some sort of freeze exception for me-tv, but primarily >>>>>>>> help with testing this in cauldron, i've just pushed a rebuild of it, >>>>>>>> could all who possess a DVB-receiver and a physical cauldron >>>>>>>> installation please test it, should be available soon, rebuild went >>>>>>>> through. >>>>>>> What exactly do you need (sorry for picking this up so late)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Todays experience as posted in the forum: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cauldron 64-bit with all updates. KDE. "Real" installation on a Samsung >>>>>>> R530. >>>>>>> Adapter Happauge Nova-T, firmware: dvb-usb-dib0700-1.20.fw in >>>>>>> /lib/firmware, plugging in the adapter gives success message in >>>>>>> syslog: "Hauppauge Nova-T in warm state" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Installed is me-tv (including dependencies): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 >>>>>>> dvb-apps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>>>>>> lib64unique1.0_0-1.1.6-6.mga2 >>>>>>> lib64dvbapps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After installation and starting the application me-tv shows a message >>>>>>> that the existing Me-Tv database is to old to be used by this version. >>>>>> This sounds like complete bogus to me, as the only version of >>>>>> me-tv for Mageia 1 and cauldron is 1.3.6, there should be no >>>>>> difference at all. >>>>> But different builds. >>>>> >>>>>> This cauldron install, was it upgraded from mga1, or where did >>>>>> the old .me-tv config come from? >>>>> Fresh Beta3 installation. The database (NOT config!) file is me-tv.db >>>>> and it is installed by the package. I also tried erasing the file >>>>> after installation before starting the application - the message about >>>>> the old db persists. See below >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> But if this problem persists, mostly all me-tv users should face >>>>>> it after upgrading from Mageia 1 to Mageia 2, so we probably >>>>>> need some kind of fix for this ... >>>>>> >>>>>>> Option "Cancel" ends the whole application, clicking on "Erase old >>>>>>> Me-Tv data" the messagebox runs into a freeze which crashes the whole >>>>>>> application. In the konsole this looks like: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> $ me-tv -v >>>>>>> Me TV 1.3.6 >>>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructor >>>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: sqlite3_threadsafe() = 1 >>>>>>> 05.05.2012 1
Re: [Mageia-dev] help with update/testing needed / freeze exception for me-tv
2012/5/9 Florian Hubold : > Am 09.05.2012 12:44, schrieb Colin Guthrie: >> 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 05/05/12 21:06 did gyre and gimble: >>> 2012/5/5 Wolfgang Bornath : >>>> 2012/5/5 Florian Hubold : >>>>> Am 05.05.2012 21:04, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >>>>>> 2012/4/4 Florian Hubold : >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> me-tv (a really nice and easy to-use DVB viewer with EPG guide) >>>>>>> totally went under my radar and it has not been updated nor >>>>>>> rebuild yet for cauldron since quite some time, seems i forgot >>>>>>> to commit my local update to 2.x branch, and me-tv was not >>>>>>> covered by check.mageia.org updates report, and i've to update >>>>>>> it when i was still apprentice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But as me-tv development was suspended, and now restarted >>>>>>> (2.0 branch was complete rewrite, with differing features, f.ex. >>>>>>> server/client based) so that 1.4 branch is the followup to what >>>>>>> we have in cauldron: https://launchpad.net/me-tv/+announcement/9377 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FWIW, me-tv-1.3.6 in cauldron was built last time beginning of last >>>>>>> july. >>>>>>> I'd like to get some sort of freeze exception for me-tv, but primarily >>>>>>> help with testing this in cauldron, i've just pushed a rebuild of it, >>>>>>> could all who possess a DVB-receiver and a physical cauldron >>>>>>> installation please test it, should be available soon, rebuild went >>>>>>> through. >>>>>> What exactly do you need (sorry for picking this up so late)? >>>>>> >>>>>> Todays experience as posted in the forum: >>>>>> >>>>>> Cauldron 64-bit with all updates. KDE. "Real" installation on a Samsung >>>>>> R530. >>>>>> Adapter Happauge Nova-T, firmware: dvb-usb-dib0700-1.20.fw in >>>>>> /lib/firmware, plugging in the adapter gives success message in >>>>>> syslog: "Hauppauge Nova-T in warm state" >>>>>> >>>>>> Installed is me-tv (including dependencies): >>>>>> >>>>>> me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 >>>>>> dvb-apps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>>>>> lib64unique1.0_0-1.1.6-6.mga2 >>>>>> lib64dvbapps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>>>>> >>>>>> After installation and starting the application me-tv shows a message >>>>>> that the existing Me-Tv database is to old to be used by this version. >>>>> This sounds like complete bogus to me, as the only version of >>>>> me-tv for Mageia 1 and cauldron is 1.3.6, there should be no >>>>> difference at all. >>>> But different builds. >>>> >>>>> This cauldron install, was it upgraded from mga1, or where did >>>>> the old .me-tv config come from? >>>> Fresh Beta3 installation. The database (NOT config!) file is me-tv.db >>>> and it is installed by the package. I also tried erasing the file >>>> after installation before starting the application - the message about >>>> the old db persists. See below >>>> >>>> >>>>> But if this problem persists, mostly all me-tv users should face >>>>> it after upgrading from Mageia 1 to Mageia 2, so we probably >>>>> need some kind of fix for this ... >>>>> >>>>>> Option "Cancel" ends the whole application, clicking on "Erase old >>>>>> Me-Tv data" the messagebox runs into a freeze which crashes the whole >>>>>> application. In the konsole this looks like: >>>>>> >>>>>> $ me-tv -v >>>>>> Me TV 1.3.6 >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructor >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: sqlite3_threadsafe() = 1 >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Database 'exists' >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Opening database file >>>>>> '/home/alfred/.local/share/me-tv/me-tv.db' >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Loading UI files >>>>>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructed &g
Re: [Mageia-dev] help with update/testing needed / freeze exception for me-tv
2012/5/5 Wolfgang Bornath : > 2012/5/5 Florian Hubold : >> Am 05.05.2012 21:04, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >>> 2012/4/4 Florian Hubold : >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> me-tv (a really nice and easy to-use DVB viewer with EPG guide) >>>> totally went under my radar and it has not been updated nor >>>> rebuild yet for cauldron since quite some time, seems i forgot >>>> to commit my local update to 2.x branch, and me-tv was not >>>> covered by check.mageia.org updates report, and i've to update >>>> it when i was still apprentice. >>>> >>>> But as me-tv development was suspended, and now restarted >>>> (2.0 branch was complete rewrite, with differing features, f.ex. >>>> server/client based) so that 1.4 branch is the followup to what >>>> we have in cauldron: https://launchpad.net/me-tv/+announcement/9377 >>>> >>>> FWIW, me-tv-1.3.6 in cauldron was built last time beginning of last july. >>>> I'd like to get some sort of freeze exception for me-tv, but primarily >>>> help with testing this in cauldron, i've just pushed a rebuild of it, >>>> could all who possess a DVB-receiver and a physical cauldron >>>> installation please test it, should be available soon, rebuild went >>>> through. >>> What exactly do you need (sorry for picking this up so late)? >>> >>> Todays experience as posted in the forum: >>> >>> Cauldron 64-bit with all updates. KDE. "Real" installation on a Samsung >>> R530. >>> Adapter Happauge Nova-T, firmware: dvb-usb-dib0700-1.20.fw in >>> /lib/firmware, plugging in the adapter gives success message in >>> syslog: "Hauppauge Nova-T in warm state" >>> >>> Installed is me-tv (including dependencies): >>> >>> me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 >>> dvb-apps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>> lib64unique1.0_0-1.1.6-6.mga2 >>> lib64dvbapps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >>> >>> After installation and starting the application me-tv shows a message >>> that the existing Me-Tv database is to old to be used by this version. >> This sounds like complete bogus to me, as the only version of >> me-tv for Mageia 1 and cauldron is 1.3.6, there should be no >> difference at all. > > But different builds. > >> This cauldron install, was it upgraded from mga1, or where did >> the old .me-tv config come from? > > Fresh Beta3 installation. The database (NOT config!) file is me-tv.db > and it is installed by the package. I also tried erasing the file > after installation before starting the application - the message about > the old db persists. See below > > >> But if this problem persists, mostly all me-tv users should face >> it after upgrading from Mageia 1 to Mageia 2, so we probably >> need some kind of fix for this ... >> >>> Option "Cancel" ends the whole application, clicking on "Erase old >>> Me-Tv data" the messagebox runs into a freeze which crashes the whole >>> application. In the konsole this looks like: >>> >>> $ me-tv -v >>> Me TV 1.3.6 >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructor >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: sqlite3_threadsafe() = 1 >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Database 'exists' >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Opening database file >>> '/home/alfred/.local/share/me-tv/me-tv.db' >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Loading UI files >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructed >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Initialising table 'version' >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Required Database version: 6 >>> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Actual Database version: 0 <<--- here the >>> message box pops up and I click on "Erase old data" >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping Me TV schema >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'channel' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event_text' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'scheduled_recording' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'version' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Vacuuming database >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'channel' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event' >>> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event_text' >>>
Re: [Mageia-dev] help with update/testing needed / freeze exception for me-tv
2012/5/5 Florian Hubold : > Am 05.05.2012 21:04, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >> 2012/4/4 Florian Hubold : >>> Hi all, >>> >>> me-tv (a really nice and easy to-use DVB viewer with EPG guide) >>> totally went under my radar and it has not been updated nor >>> rebuild yet for cauldron since quite some time, seems i forgot >>> to commit my local update to 2.x branch, and me-tv was not >>> covered by check.mageia.org updates report, and i've to update >>> it when i was still apprentice. >>> >>> But as me-tv development was suspended, and now restarted >>> (2.0 branch was complete rewrite, with differing features, f.ex. >>> server/client based) so that 1.4 branch is the followup to what >>> we have in cauldron: https://launchpad.net/me-tv/+announcement/9377 >>> >>> FWIW, me-tv-1.3.6 in cauldron was built last time beginning of last july. >>> I'd like to get some sort of freeze exception for me-tv, but primarily >>> help with testing this in cauldron, i've just pushed a rebuild of it, >>> could all who possess a DVB-receiver and a physical cauldron >>> installation please test it, should be available soon, rebuild went >>> through. >> What exactly do you need (sorry for picking this up so late)? >> >> Todays experience as posted in the forum: >> >> Cauldron 64-bit with all updates. KDE. "Real" installation on a Samsung R530. >> Adapter Happauge Nova-T, firmware: dvb-usb-dib0700-1.20.fw in >> /lib/firmware, plugging in the adapter gives success message in >> syslog: "Hauppauge Nova-T in warm state" >> >> Installed is me-tv (including dependencies): >> >> me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 >> dvb-apps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >> lib64unique1.0_0-1.1.6-6.mga2 >> lib64dvbapps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 >> >> After installation and starting the application me-tv shows a message >> that the existing Me-Tv database is to old to be used by this version. > This sounds like complete bogus to me, as the only version of > me-tv for Mageia 1 and cauldron is 1.3.6, there should be no > difference at all. But different builds. > This cauldron install, was it upgraded from mga1, or where did > the old .me-tv config come from? Fresh Beta3 installation. The database (NOT config!) file is me-tv.db and it is installed by the package. I also tried erasing the file after installation before starting the application - the message about the old db persists. See below > But if this problem persists, mostly all me-tv users should face > it after upgrading from Mageia 1 to Mageia 2, so we probably > need some kind of fix for this ... > >> Option "Cancel" ends the whole application, clicking on "Erase old >> Me-Tv data" the messagebox runs into a freeze which crashes the whole >> application. In the konsole this looks like: >> >> $ me-tv -v >> Me TV 1.3.6 >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructor >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: sqlite3_threadsafe() = 1 >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Database 'exists' >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Opening database file >> '/home/alfred/.local/share/me-tv/me-tv.db' >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Loading UI files >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructed >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Initialising table 'version' >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Required Database version: 6 >> 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Actual Database version: 0 <<--- here the >> message box pops up and I click on "Erase old data" >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping Me TV schema >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'channel' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event_text' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'scheduled_recording' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'version' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Vacuuming database >> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'channel' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event_text' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'scheduled_recording' >> 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'version' >> >> and that's it. >> >> In MGA1 Me-TV works nicely with the same adapter. In MGA1 the package >> is me-tv-1.3.6-1.1.mga1 - in MGA2 the packages is me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 >> > Can you please try again after removing ~/.local/share/me-tv/ ? - removed ~/.local/share/me-tv/ (including the me-tv.db) Result: Starting me-tv runs into a timeout. Message in konsole: (me-tv:1956) : Unique-DBUS-WARNING **: Error while sending message: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include [followed by the generic causes ( message bus security block, reply timeout expired, network connection broke, etc.)] After reboot I started me-tv again, the message about the old database appears - ~/.local/share/me-tv/ is there again, including the database. Now I installed me-tv (plus dependencies) on a Cauldron which has been updated since Alpha stage: exactly the same result. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] help with update/testing needed / freeze exception for me-tv
2012/4/4 Florian Hubold : > Hi all, > > me-tv (a really nice and easy to-use DVB viewer with EPG guide) > totally went under my radar and it has not been updated nor > rebuild yet for cauldron since quite some time, seems i forgot > to commit my local update to 2.x branch, and me-tv was not > covered by check.mageia.org updates report, and i've to update > it when i was still apprentice. > > But as me-tv development was suspended, and now restarted > (2.0 branch was complete rewrite, with differing features, f.ex. > server/client based) so that 1.4 branch is the followup to what > we have in cauldron: https://launchpad.net/me-tv/+announcement/9377 > > FWIW, me-tv-1.3.6 in cauldron was built last time beginning of last july. > I'd like to get some sort of freeze exception for me-tv, but primarily > help with testing this in cauldron, i've just pushed a rebuild of it, > could all who possess a DVB-receiver and a physical cauldron > installation please test it, should be available soon, rebuild went > through. What exactly do you need (sorry for picking this up so late)? Todays experience as posted in the forum: Cauldron 64-bit with all updates. KDE. "Real" installation on a Samsung R530. Adapter Happauge Nova-T, firmware: dvb-usb-dib0700-1.20.fw in /lib/firmware, plugging in the adapter gives success message in syslog: "Hauppauge Nova-T in warm state" Installed is me-tv (including dependencies): me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 dvb-apps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 lib64unique1.0_0-1.1.6-6.mga2 lib64dvbapps-1.1.1-8.hg1465.1.mga2 After installation and starting the application me-tv shows a message that the existing Me-Tv database is to old to be used by this version. Option "Cancel" ends the whole application, clicking on "Erase old Me-Tv data" the messagebox runs into a freeze which crashes the whole application. In the konsole this looks like: $ me-tv -v Me TV 1.3.6 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructor 05.05.2012 15:02:55: sqlite3_threadsafe() = 1 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Database 'exists' 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Opening database file '/home/alfred/.local/share/me-tv/me-tv.db' 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Loading UI files 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Application constructed 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Initialising table 'version' 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Required Database version: 6 05.05.2012 15:02:55: Actual Database version: 0 <<--- here the message box pops up and I click on "Erase old data" 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping Me TV schema 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'channel' 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event' 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'epg_event_text' 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'scheduled_recording' 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Dropping table 'version' 05.05.2012 15:03:26: Vacuuming database 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'channel' 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event' 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'epg_event_text' 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'scheduled_recording' 05.05.2012 15:03:27: Initialising table 'version' and that's it. In MGA1 Me-TV works nicely with the same adapter. In MGA1 the package is me-tv-1.3.6-1.1.mga1 - in MGA2 the packages is me-tv-1.3.6-3.mga2 -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Are you sure? (no confirmation before proceeding to selected packages installation)
2012/5/4 Dimitrios Glentadakis :
>
> Le 4 mai 2012 17:19, "Wolfgang Bornath" a écrit :
>
>
>>
>> 2012/5/4 Dimitrios Glentadakis :
>> >
>> > Le 4 mai 2012 16:29, "Thomas Backlund" a écrit :
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> 04.05.2012 17:27, Thierry Vignaud skrev:
>> >> > On 4 May 2012 16:19, Felix Miata wrote:
>> >> >> Mageia's installer has the same problem that bothers me in Mandriva.
>> >> >> The
>> >> >> type install screen with KDE vs Gnome vs custom has no intermediate
>> >> >> step
>> >> >> prior to the start of selected packages installation. Does this
>> >> >> bother
>> >> >> no
>> >> >> one else?
>> >> >
>> >> > Too late to report.
>> >> > When people will cease to do ala Gael tests aka just before the
>> >> > final?
>> >>
>> >> Well, only too late for mga2, but it can get on wishlist for mga3
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Thomas
>> >>
>> >
>> > Another case is when you install in the existing partitions and in the
>> > partitioning screen you choose the partitions, /, /home, etc, and you
>> > have
>> > checked in the checkbox a partition to be formatted.
>> >
>> > It seems very logical to me that in this step a confirmation is more
>> > than
>> > usefull.
>> > Before a 2-3 years there was a brainstorm in mandriva and i had proposed
>> > the
>> > usage of confirmation dialogues. I cannot find the link now, but the
>> > answers
>> > that i got was like 'you click on OK so you have to be sure', 'no
>> > needed,
>> > useless feature' etc.
>> >
>> > If there will be a brainstorm in mageia, i would like to try to propose
>> > it
>> > again.
>>
>> Do you think you will get a different result? Look at Microsoft.
>> People were so annoyed by all these "Are you sure" popups that
>> comedians started to refer to these popups in their standup sessions
>> ("Do you really want to use the brake pedal?"). AFAIR there hasn't
>> been such a popup at the situations you pointed to as long as
>> Mandrake/Mandriva existed. I haven't heard anybody complaining about
>> this (until today).
>> About the selection screens:
>>
>> For me the first selection screen (KDE - Gnome - Custom) serves the
>> new user who wants to get on with the installation without any
>> interactive stuff he would not know how to handle it. So the screen
>> presents 2 options which will get him a standard system with one
>> click. Everybody else is surely able to understand the word "Custom"
>> which opens the door to everything else. The next screen offers a
>> package selection which allows for installation of whole groups (or
>> non-installation). This same screen opens the door to the minimal
>> installation options (if you deselect all package groups). It also
>> shows the option "Individual package selection".
>>
>> To me this is a logical procedure (one step following the selection of
>> the previous step).
>>
>> Of course Mageia could put something like "Clicking OK will start the
>> installation" below the KDE and Gnome options or something similar.
>>
>> About the partitioning:
>>
>> What exactly do you miss there (you have seen the "expert" button?) ?
>>
>> IMHO there is nothing missing or at presented at the wrong state of
>> the installation procedure.
>>
>> --
>> wobo
>
> In the specific case i mentionned, there is a risc of loosing data, so i
> think that it is usefull to prevent. Why you are informed when you switch to
> expert mode in diskdrake?
Because the "Expert" button is there to tell users that if they will
press this button they should know what they are doing.
> Twice i avoided to delete the /home partition. To prevent other users, in
> the greek translation i add the 'formatting (delete data)'
At which occasion? In normal mode after leaving the partitioning
screen you will get a list of partitions which will be formatted. If
you set the mount point for /home on your "old" home partition the
checkbox beside this partition will be not marked by default. So,
first a new user does not have an old /home partition, second: if he
has then he should not override the default (or click on "Back" to
make sure he does not do something stupid). Yes, there is a "Back"
button on the formatting screen. Besides, clicking on "Next" in the
partitioning screen shows a popup where you can cancel the operation.
So this step (partitioning and formatting) is secured by the double.
Given the fact that even the newest user should be aware that this is
an important step I think a normal computer user will pay attention to
what he is doing there.
I don't think that I understand what you mean exactly.
--
wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Are you sure? (no confirmation before proceeding to selected packages installation)
2012/5/4 Dimitrios Glentadakis :
>
> Le 4 mai 2012 16:29, "Thomas Backlund" a écrit :
>
>
>>
>> 04.05.2012 17:27, Thierry Vignaud skrev:
>> > On 4 May 2012 16:19, Felix Miata wrote:
>> >> Mageia's installer has the same problem that bothers me in Mandriva.
>> >> The
>> >> type install screen with KDE vs Gnome vs custom has no intermediate
>> >> step
>> >> prior to the start of selected packages installation. Does this bother
>> >> no
>> >> one else?
>> >
>> > Too late to report.
>> > When people will cease to do ala Gael tests aka just before the final?
>>
>> Well, only too late for mga2, but it can get on wishlist for mga3
>>
>> --
>> Thomas
>>
>
> Another case is when you install in the existing partitions and in the
> partitioning screen you choose the partitions, /, /home, etc, and you have
> checked in the checkbox a partition to be formatted.
>
> It seems very logical to me that in this step a confirmation is more than
> usefull.
> Before a 2-3 years there was a brainstorm in mandriva and i had proposed the
> usage of confirmation dialogues. I cannot find the link now, but the answers
> that i got was like 'you click on OK so you have to be sure', 'no needed,
> useless feature' etc.
>
> If there will be a brainstorm in mageia, i would like to try to propose it
> again.
Do you think you will get a different result? Look at Microsoft.
People were so annoyed by all these "Are you sure" popups that
comedians started to refer to these popups in their standup sessions
("Do you really want to use the brake pedal?"). AFAIR there hasn't
been such a popup at the situations you pointed to as long as
Mandrake/Mandriva existed. I haven't heard anybody complaining about
this (until today).
About the selection screens:
For me the first selection screen (KDE - Gnome - Custom) serves the
new user who wants to get on with the installation without any
interactive stuff he would not know how to handle it. So the screen
presents 2 options which will get him a standard system with one
click. Everybody else is surely able to understand the word "Custom"
which opens the door to everything else. The next screen offers a
package selection which allows for installation of whole groups (or
non-installation). This same screen opens the door to the minimal
installation options (if you deselect all package groups). It also
shows the option "Individual package selection".
To me this is a logical procedure (one step following the selection of
the previous step).
Of course Mageia could put something like "Clicking OK will start the
installation" below the KDE and Gnome options or something similar.
About the partitioning:
What exactly do you miss there (you have seen the "expert" button?) ?
IMHO there is nothing missing or at presented at the wrong state of
the installation procedure.
--
wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Handling single user/rescue/failsafe mode
2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse : > Le 26/04/2012 16:26, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : > >> No, it is not a subjective setting. Because this default setting is >> not caused by technical reasons nor is it set because of somebody's >> individual opinion. It is set simply for convenience reasons. We (at >> Mandrivauser de and other places) have been constantly recommending in >> the forums to change this setting and most of the users who are >> interested in security do it because they understand the reasoning >> behind it. > > Fine. That's the point of adapting a *default* setting to your own needs, > instead of arguing it should be preset for everyone else in the world to > match it. No, the point here is not whether I adapt to anything, it is the question if it is possible in this environment to discuss a long time standing setting for which nobody seem to have a valid reason - only that it should not be changed while good reasons are given. Seems not to be possible. You're right, no further discussion needed. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Handling single user/rescue/failsafe mode
2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse : > Le 26/04/2012 15:21, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : >> >> 2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse: >>> >>> Le 26/04/2012 14:22, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : >>>> >>>> >>>> What is the advantage to leave the barn door open? To make it easier >>>> on those who can not remember their root password? Having to find out >>>> how to overcome that small bar will not hurt them but teach them a >>>> lesson. >>> >>> >>> Having to type a password with a misconfigured keyboard is a pain. >>> Really. >> >> >> Yes, that is surely a reasons to put away with all passwords because >> they are all hard to type with a misconfigured keyboard. > > Your comparaison is unfair. Your usually boot in runlevel 1 exceptionnaly, > because your machine is in bad shape, in order to repair it. And as it is > not the usual operating runlevel, you can't usually ensure than than > boot-time configuration is applied correctly. How it is unfair? The question is NOT what people usually do but what people CAN do. If you go out for lunch, do you leave your desk drawere open for everybody passing by? No? So why do you do that to your computer? >> I don't understand that it is not regarded as a contradiction to >> recommend setting a root password at installation and at the same time >> leaving the door wide open by default for reasons of convenience. > > Because usually people interested in security usually consider threat > classes before considering effective countermeasures. And securing physical > access is usually considered worthless. Ah, I see. Interesting point of view. A computer in an environment of people IS a thread class. A bunch of adolescent kids IS a threat class. If your threat classes only include serious criminality (like taking away the computer) then your threat classes miss reality. But anyhow, you seem to have never experienced coming back home to find your root password changed by your well meaning kid (which is one of the not so serious REAL cases). > Now, that's just a default setting, this is perfectly subjective, and we may > argue for hours about the right thing to do... . No, it is not a subjective setting. Because this default setting is not caused by technical reasons nor is it set because of somebody's individual opinion. It is set simply for convenience reasons. We (at Mandrivauser de and other places) have been constantly recommending in the forums to change this setting and most of the users who are interested in security do it because they understand the reasoning behind it. But what do I know. This was the last time I argue about such things here. Do what YOU think is right. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Handling single user/rescue/failsafe mode
2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse : > Le 26/04/2012 14:22, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : >> >> What is the advantage to leave the barn door open? To make it easier >> on those who can not remember their root password? Having to find out >> how to overcome that small bar will not hurt them but teach them a >> lesson. > > Having to type a password with a misconfigured keyboard is a pain. Really. Yes, that is surely a reasons to put away with all passwords because they are all hard to type with a misconfigured keyboard. I don't understand that it is not regarded as a contradiction to recommend setting a root password at installation and at the same time leaving the door wide open by default for reasons of convenience. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Handling single user/rescue/failsafe mode
2012/4/26 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 26/04/12 12:05 did gyre and gimble: >> 2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse : >>> Le 26/04/2012 12:12, Thierry Vignaud a écrit : >>> >>>> On 26 April 2012 11:38, Colin Guthrie wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It seems that in mga1 single user mode just gave a shell without >>>>> requiring root password. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure when this was added, but in the initscripts changelog, I >>>>> see it has come from the big mdvconf patch[1]. >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone remember the reason for this (perhaps it was related to tcb >>>>> support?) and whether or not we should do the same thing in systemd >>>>> which currently (now that I've fixed it) uses whatever SINGLE says in >>>>> /etc/sysconfig/init. >>>> >>>> >>>> This has been like this forever... >>>> At least for the past decade. >>>> I think other distros do/did it too. >>> >>> Some of them force the use of a password for single mode. Given the ease of >>> bypassing it through init=/bin/sh, unless the bootloader is also protected, >>> I'm a bit sceptic about the interest. >> >> For ages (Mandrakelinux/Mandriva) it has been >> >> SINGLE=/sbin/sushell > > Yes, but inittab itself just referenced /bin/sh (thus not caring what > SINGLE variable was set to). > >> as default. IMHO this default setting is a security issue. Someone >> with access to your machine (in an office or whereever) can simply >> turn it on (or first turn it off with the power button), select >> failsafe from the boot menue and has all the privileges he wants >> without any hurdles to jump. So I've been advocating to change this >> entry in /etc/sysconfig/init. >> >> I've been also recommending users to change the matching line in >> /etc/inittab accordingly: >> >> #Single user mode >> ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin >> >> which does the same. Unfortunately Mandrake/Mandriva developpers did >> not share my view. > > As Guillaume pointed out, if they have physical access, you can also > just pass init=/bin/sh to the kernel prompt, so I see little real > security benefit here (it maybe raises the bar slightly, but insecure is > insecure). I heard that argument before, so I'm used to it. With the default settung nobody needs to be a wizard to switch on the computer and select the failsafe mode. With that little bar you have to know how to get to the kernel prompt (I guess you mean the kernel line in the boot menue) and how to change it. So the small bar prevents mischievous kids to do anything to dad's computer and office collegues playing bad with you. What is the advantage to leave the barn door open? To make it easier on those who can not remember their root password? Having to find out how to overcome that small bar will not hurt them but teach them a lesson. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Handling single user/rescue/failsafe mode
2012/4/26 Guillaume Rousse : > Le 26/04/2012 12:12, Thierry Vignaud a écrit : > >> On 26 April 2012 11:38, Colin Guthrie wrote: >>> >>> It seems that in mga1 single user mode just gave a shell without >>> requiring root password. >>> >>> I'm not sure when this was added, but in the initscripts changelog, I >>> see it has come from the big mdvconf patch[1]. >>> >>> Can anyone remember the reason for this (perhaps it was related to tcb >>> support?) and whether or not we should do the same thing in systemd >>> which currently (now that I've fixed it) uses whatever SINGLE says in >>> /etc/sysconfig/init. >> >> >> This has been like this forever... >> At least for the past decade. >> I think other distros do/did it too. > > Some of them force the use of a password for single mode. Given the ease of > bypassing it through init=/bin/sh, unless the bootloader is also protected, > I'm a bit sceptic about the interest. For ages (Mandrakelinux/Mandriva) it has been SINGLE=/sbin/sushell as default. IMHO this default setting is a security issue. Someone with access to your machine (in an office or whereever) can simply turn it on (or first turn it off with the power button), select failsafe from the boot menue and has all the privileges he wants without any hurdles to jump. So I've been advocating to change this entry in /etc/sysconfig/init. I've been also recommending users to change the matching line in /etc/inittab accordingly: #Single user mode ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin which does the same. Unfortunately Mandrake/Mandriva developpers did not share my view. -- wobo
