Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:40:27 +0200 Anne Nicolas wrote: > Hi there > > So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for > final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we > need to take some decisions. > > Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments > and review about Mageia on the web. > > - provide a full open source software version Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install optional proprietary software" in the installer. > - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having > low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) > - provide live version(s) IMHO you could simply go for CD == live (and installable). Regards Antoine. -- Software development and contracting: http://pro.pitrou.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Anne Nicolas wrote: > Hi there > > So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final > release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take > some decisions. > > Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and > review about Mageia on the web. > > - provide a full open source software version > - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low > band-width or paying depending how much they use it) > - provide live version(s) > - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 > - provide localization as large as possible > - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it > easier to install and configure > > Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So > let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your > proposal. I would vote for - Live DVDs (1 per arch) - dual arch free CD - dual arch nonfree CD maybe we can replace the dual-arch CDs by enlarged boot.iso, need to send more about it :) I know machines with CD and not DVD still exist but I believe than in > 99% of the cases they are either a server or an old machine which will probably have a hard time running a recent KDE or GNOME
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:40:27 +0200 > Anne Nicolas wrote: >> Hi there >> >> So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for >> final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we >> need to take some decisions. >> >> Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments >> and review about Mageia on the web. >> >> - provide a full open source software version > > Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install > optional proprietary software" in the installer. This allows for example magazines to distribute it >> - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having >> low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) >> - provide live version(s) > > IMHO you could simply go for CD == live (and installable). But we have a huge amount of live CDs currently because you can't fit a full GNOME or KDE desktop with all locales on a single CD
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Anne Nicolas skrev 19.9.2012 10:40: Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) I'd suggest for livecds: 2 liveCDs: - 1 GNOME 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co - 1 KDE 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co 4 liveDVDs: - 1 GNOME DVD i586 - all locales-* - 1 GNOME DVD x86_64 - all locales-* - 1 KDE DVD i586 - all locales-* - 1 KDE DVD x86_64 - all locales-* Question... do we need to provide XFCE (or LXDE) for those that does not like the GNOME/KDE bloat (and "phone/pad" gui) ? - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 Doing 2 livecds & 4 livecds would drop live isos from 16 -> 6 - provide localization as large as possible liveDVDs would carry all langs... Install DVDs already carry most (all?) langs - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure liveCDs/DVDs already does... for "normal install" DVDs I guess we need to add nonfree firmwares to the isos in separate media with an option to enable/use them in the install phase as some hw need it to actually work. (IIRC tv had something like this in progress) Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Am 19.09.2012 09:40, schrieb Anne Nicolas: Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure Here is my proposal: 2 DVDs (32 and 64 bit) 2 LiveCDs KDE (32/64 bit) 2 LiveCDs GNOME (32/64 bit) 2 USB KDE (32/64 bit) ~1GB large (same as LiveCDs but with all languages) 2 USB GNOME (32/64 bit) ~1GB large (same as LiveCDs but with all languages) 1 dual arch CD --- 11 ISOs instead of 19 (the current state) Explanation: Only 2 LiveCDs per DE: Just put the most used languages or maybe only English on it. LiveCDs are usefull to check if everything is supported and bugfree or as a rescue system. This can be done with english as well. If you install the LiveCD a language selection could be used to download the preferred language. 4 USB Images: Nearly the same as the LiveCDs but as an USB-Image. So we are more flexible with the size of the ISOs. I guess ~1GB is usefull, as you can put all languages on it but is still small enough for a quick download or for restricted bandwidth ... 2 DVDs as it it now If we try to focus on USB-Images, we may get rid of the 64bit LiveCD Images. Regards, Thorsten Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
19.09.2012 10:40, Anne Nicolas kirjutas: Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers My proposal: dual and DVDs - as they are today. 32-bit LiveCD-s as they are today. Replace 64-bit LiveCDs with two LiveDVDs (KDE and GNOME versions) which contain all languages. I think 32-bit LiveCDs are still needed as they will be used by those users who don't have computer that can read DVDs and when the CD is in english it will be really hard for them localize their system after installing. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
'Twas brillig, and Antoine Pitrou at 19/09/12 09:11 did gyre and gimble: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:40:27 +0200 > Anne Nicolas wrote: >> Hi there >> >> So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for >> final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we >> need to take some decisions. >> >> Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments >> and review about Mageia on the web. >> >> - provide a full open source software version > > Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install > optional proprietary software" in the installer. I would personally prefer this too. That said, having a separate repository on the media itself is almost the same as having two iso's with different package selections (where one is a subset of the other), so in terms of QA, it's about the same (less downloading but the same number of installs). Still probably a net positive tho'. >> - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having >> low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) >> - provide live version(s) > > IMHO you could simply go for CD == live (and installable). Perhaps, but the "live version(s)" did not necessarily specify a CD... it could well have been a Live DVD. So I guess that's a question to answer, should the live media be CD sized? (and I don't want to suggest for a second that it would be worth providing both!) Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Le 19/09/12 10:17, Pascal Terjan a écrit : On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Anne Nicolas wrote: Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your proposal. I would vote for - Live DVDs (1 per arch) - dual arch free CD - dual arch nonfree CD that seems good :) maybe we can replace the dual-arch CDs by enlarged boot.iso, need to send more about it :) it may be as problematic as boot.iso for people with bad connections. I personally prefer a CD that brings correctly the base system than rely on my connection and finish with an installation without rpm (as it did once). Claire
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wednesday 19 September 2012 14:23, Claire Revillet wrote: > boot.iso for people with bad connections. I always use boot.iso when installing, as I install over the network. Then I don't have to remember to remove the CD/DVDs as available repos. The only time I use DVDs for installation, is when I'm installing for other people, either here at my place or at their places. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 09/19/2012 04:20 AM, Pascal Terjan wrote: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install optional proprietary software" in the installer. This allows for example magazines to distribute it Then put the nonfree and tainted stuff on a separate non-installable CD/DVD containing only those packages, and have the installer provide an option to use either that or a network-location nonfree/tainted. The magazine can distribute the base DVD, and those who want nonfree/tainted can simply opt to download the second ISO themselves or have the installer connect them to a network nonfree/tainted repo.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan : > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install >> optional proprietary software" in the installer. > > This allows for example magazines to distribute it Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Le 19/09/2012 15:04, Johnny A. Solbu a écrit : On Wednesday 19 September 2012 14:23, Claire Revillet wrote: boot.iso for people with bad connections. I always use boot.iso when installing, as I install over the network. Then I don't have to remember to remove the CD/DVDs as available repos. The only time I use DVDs for installation, is when I'm installing for other people, either here at my place or at their places. I don't understand the relation between my point and yours. My point is that with a bad connection (like mine and i'm not living in the worse country concerning internet acces) boot.iso is not safe so we should continue providing dual-cd. Dual-cd can make a complete base installation safely and is less to download compare to DVDs.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Romain d'Alverny : > 2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan : >> On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install >>> optional proprietary software" in the installer. >> >> This allows for example magazines to distribute it > > Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't forget, this is cost free advertizing! My view: - Free DVD (32/64) with a proper installer - distributing only live media is a bad habit of some distributors, let's make a difference there! As we have support of the idea of free software written in our values we should stick to that. In addition to that we could include non-free firmware in a part of the DVD, to be activated in the installer (opt-in). - 4 life ISOs (Gnome & KDE, 32 & 64) for USB sticks (up to 1GB), they work for all kinds of machines, even such without optical drives. The additional space would be enough to include all langs. - boot.iso, this is done anyway, so it's no extra work -- wobo -
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Am 19.09.2012 16:53, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2012/9/19 Romain d'Alverny: 2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install optional proprietary software" in the installer. This allows for example magazines to distribute it Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't forget, this is cost free advertizing! My view: - Free DVD (32/64) with a proper installer - distributing only live media is a bad habit of some distributors, let's make a difference there! As we have support of the idea of free software written in our values we should stick to that. In addition to that we could include non-free firmware in a part of the DVD, to be activated in the installer (opt-in). - 4 life ISOs (Gnome& KDE, 32& 64) for USB sticks (up to 1GB), they work for all kinds of machines, even such without optical drives. The additional space would be enough to include all langs. - boot.iso, this is done anyway, so it's no extra work Looks very similar to my proposal, doesn't it? :) Greetings, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Thorsten van Lil : > Am 19.09.2012 16:53, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: >> >> 2012/9/19 Romain d'Alverny: >>> >>> 2012/9/19 Pascal Terjan: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install > optional proprietary software" in the installer. This allows for example magazines to distribute it >>> >>> >>> Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) >> >> >> Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there >> will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't forget, >> this is cost free advertizing! >> >> My view: >> >> - Free DVD (32/64) with a proper installer - distributing only live >> media is a bad habit of some distributors, let's make a difference >> there! As we have support of the idea of free software written in our >> values we should stick to that. In addition to that we could include >> non-free firmware in a part of the DVD, to be activated in the >> installer (opt-in). >> >> - 4 life ISOs (Gnome& KDE, 32& 64) for USB sticks (up to 1GB), they >> work for all kinds of machines, even such without optical drives. The >> additional space would be enough to include all langs. >> >> - boot.iso, this is done anyway, so it's no extra work >>r > Looks very similar to my proposal, doesn't it? :) Yes, I took the proposal of the 4 life isos from your mail, but only to make my view complete. My main concern is the reasoning in favor of the Free DVD. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:17:55 +0200 Pascal Terjan wrote: > > I would vote for > - Live DVDs (1 per arch) > - dual arch free CD > - dual arch nonfree CD > > maybe we can replace the dual-arch CDs by enlarged boot.iso, need to > send more about it :) > > I know machines with CD and not DVD still exist but I believe than in > > 99% of the cases they are either a server or an old machine which > will probably have a hard time running a recent KDE or GNOME So, for the record, as a user the reason I prefer CD images is not that I don't have a DVD reader (I do have one) but simply that CD images are much smaller to download and keep around. Just my two overrated cents of course ;-) Regards Antoine. -- Software development and contracting: http://pro.pitrou.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19/09/12 15:53, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) > Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there > will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't > forget, this is cost free advertizing! Interestingly, one of the leading UK computer magazines has just stopped including cover media. The reviews are still there, as is the "What's on this month's disk", but the disk is downloadable. It's too early to know whether this is the start of a trend, but my personal reaction is "one less to send to the tip each month". We've seen the move away from disks in plastic folders replaced by cardboard sleeves. It does seem likely that this will be the next step. Anne - -- Need KDE help? Try http://userbase.kde.org or http://forum.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaCAYACgkQj93fyh4cnBeZRwCfWWa/az3ySxPrCJI9B85PGGzr uY4AniuLpI5wbsuLe1G9cLIjkOcU9PUR =BEGx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Op woensdag 19 september 2012 11:31:13 schreef Thomas Backlund: > I'd suggest for livecds: > 2 liveCDs: > - 1 GNOME 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co > - 1 KDE 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co > 4 liveDVDs: > - 1 GNOME DVD i586 - all locales-* > - 1 GNOME DVD x86_64 - all locales-* > - 1 KDE DVD i586 - all locales-* > - 1 KDE DVD x86_64 - all locales-* i like your proposal the best, but with small addendum: no QA: (but often tested, so this works out ok) (autogenerated?) 2 - boot (32/64) 2 - boot nonfree (32/64) install: 1 - dual arch CD nonfree 2 - DVD installer with nonfree option (32/64) live: 1 - liveDVD/USB dual arch KDE nonfree 1 - liveDVD/USB dual arch Gnome nonfree 2 - liveCD KDE english only (32) 2 - liveCD Gnome english only (32) total 9 iso's to be tested, of which 3 of them will need more testing due to dual arch; (and perhaps the nonfree option will need a bit of extra testing too in the DVD in the 2 DVD installer isos). i don't think it can be any shorter than this... Personally only 3 isos are important: - dual arch CD nonfree (it's only for advanced users, mostly used for servers, so need hardware raid firmware and network firmware; don't care about graphic drivers; and i also can use it as a rescue CD, that means i only need one CD in my coat inner pocket at all times) - 64bit DVD install (preferably nonfree) for desktop installs. - boot nonfree (64bit) for PXE installs and such after this,if people want more and there IS resources, people can make more iso's like with edu selection or whatnot... speaking of dual arch CD; i'm missing iproute2 & bridge-utils (commands: ip (mostly for vlan support) and brctl) in the rescue
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 19/09/12 10:31, Thomas Backlund wrote: I'd suggest for livecds: 2 liveCDs: - 1 GNOME 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co - 1 KDE 700M i586 - english only - for FOSDEM & co 4 liveDVDs: - 1 GNOME DVD i586 - all locales-* - 1 GNOME DVD x86_64 - all locales-* - 1 KDE DVD i586 - all locales-* - 1 KDE DVD x86_64 - all locales-* +1 but I would suggest that all those guys get a network install option. In particular the live CDs, in that case they could replace the boot.iso. It is true that it takes 10x times to download a full CD compared to boot.iso, but that's still tractable? Question... do we need to provide XFCE (or LXDE) for those that does not like the GNOME/KDE bloat (and "phone/pad" gui) ? I belong to those guys, and I would say NO. :) Just because, if you don't like KDE, you won't like LXDE for aesthetic reasons, and XFCE is practical but neither nice in my opinion. However, if would not have a size issue, I'll say YES only if we include all the small desktop environments; because that's a great stuff about Mageia that we have almost all of them. Cheers, Chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/19 Anne Wilson : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 19/09/12 15:53, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) >> Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally there >> will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. Don't >> forget, this is cost free advertizing! > > Interestingly, one of the leading UK computer magazines has just > stopped including cover media. The reviews are still there, as is the > "What's on this month's disk", but the disk is downloadable. This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. Cover media are a measurable cause of increasing sales - as this chief editor told, issues with popular software on a DVD sell more copies than without. Even other kinds of media (tv program, lifestyle magazines and others) have taken to adding DVDs on their issues. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 20/09/12 11:19, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2012/9/19 Anne Wilson : >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 >> >> On 19/09/12 15:53, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: Are paper magazines still relevant here? (true question) >>> Yes, they are an important distribution method. Additionally >>> there will be reviews/articles accompanying the cover DVDs. >>> Don't forget, this is cost free advertizing! >> >> Interestingly, one of the leading UK computer magazines has just >> stopped including cover media. The reviews are still there, as >> is the "What's on this month's disk", but the disk is >> downloadable. > > This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the > cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation > with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular > because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. Yes, I suspect that this need will be very variable, geographically. > Cover media are a measurable cause of increasing sales - as this > chief editor told, issues with popular software on a DVD sell more > copies than without. > > Even other kinds of media (tv program, lifestyle magazines and > others) have taken to adding DVDs on their issues. > Something apparently for nothing is always attractive to many, but the eco lobby is becoming increasingly important. I'm not advocating dropping the media disks for now, just being aware that the situation needs to be watched for the future. Irrelevant to this discussion, but I feel increasingly guilty about disposing of frequent "bumper *buntu distro" disks. Since I subscribe the several magazines they have been coming in threes. That's a lot of disks in a year. Anne - -- Need KDE help? Try http://userbase.kde.org or http://forum.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBa7+AACgkQj93fyh4cnBe2BQCeNZMyuA2lJeOgQMoARayB+EBg PfEAnic1SRBBWYicgXEmrhekF6ZQ1v61 =0huW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/20 Anne Wilson : > On 20/09/12 11:19, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the >> cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation >> with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular >> because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. > > Yes, I suspect that this need will be very variable, geographically. Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) > Something apparently for nothing is always attractive to many, but the > eco lobby is becoming increasingly important. I'm not advocating > dropping the media disks for now, just being aware that the situation > needs to be watched for the future. Well, for computer magazines it's not "for nothing". The popular magazines are coming in 2 flavors, one with cover media, the other without. Guess which is cheaper. > Irrelevant to this discussion, but I feel increasingly guilty about > disposing of frequent "bumper *buntu distro" disks. Since I subscribe > the several magazines they have been coming in threes. That's a lot > of disks in a year. That is the reason I stopped subscribing years ago. I only buy a magazine if I am interested in an article or I want the cover media. So I don't feel guilty. Anyhow, I don't think that this part of the discussion even has an impact on cover media. As long as we have a live DVD or CD (with German language) the German magazines will get what they need (this goes for all other countries as well). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 09/19/2012 04:31 AM, Thomas Backlund wrote: for "normal install" DVDs I guess we need to add nonfree firmwares to the isos in separate media with an option to enable/use them in the install phase as some hw need it to actually work. (IIRC tv had something like this in progress) Another vote to incorporate non-free as much as possible. Someone coming from Mint/Ubuntu etc. is probably not going to stick w/Mageia if the X server fails on first boot or their WiFi requires excessive tinkering. Some students may not have access to wired Ethernet connections and depend on WiFi, hence making net-installs for non-free drivers a catch 22. ~Digigold -- /"A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its old dimensions."/ *~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.*
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 20 September 2012 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2012/9/20 Anne Wilson : >> On 20/09/12 11:19, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> >>> This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning the >>> cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a conversation >>> with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media are very popular >>> because they cater to the needs of people with slow net access. >> >> Yes, I suspect that this need will be very variable, geographically. > > Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) > While I don't buy magazines as *I* can download any of the iso easily at uni, if I am away and wanted the disks then it would be something that would greatly appeal to me. The statement that the uk has superfast internet for all isn't accurate, at the present the uk still contains Scotland. >> Something apparently for nothing is always attractive to many, but the >> eco lobby is becoming increasingly important. I'm not advocating >> dropping the media disks for now, just being aware that the situation >> needs to be watched for the future. > > Well, for computer magazines it's not "for nothing". The popular > magazines are coming in 2 flavors, one with cover media, the other > without. Guess which is cheaper. > >> Irrelevant to this discussion, but I feel increasingly guilty about >> disposing of frequent "bumper *buntu distro" disks. Since I subscribe >> the several magazines they have been coming in threes. That's a lot >> of disks in a year. > > That is the reason I stopped subscribing years ago. I only buy a > magazine if I am interested in an article or I want the cover media. > So I don't feel guilty. > > Anyhow, I don't think that this part of the discussion even has an > impact on cover media. As long as we have a live DVD or CD (with > German language) the German magazines will get what they need (this > goes for all other countries as well). > > -- > wobo Shipping a pure free flavour is appealing, however, I feel that it doesn't warrent a disk by itself, perhaps an option to not install non free software on the dvd. The number of live cds does need to be minimized, I also agree with the proposal to have 4, 2 Gnome, 2 for KDE. The other environments could surely be done by the *community* and therefore be onofficial and not require the full qa.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
2012/9/20 Donald Stewart : > On 20 September 2012 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> >> Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) > > The statement that the uk has superfast internet for all isn't > accurate, at the present the uk still contains Scotland. That statement was irony, see the smiley :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Hi, On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 07:33:02 -0400 Digigold wrote: > On 09/19/2012 04:31 AM, Thomas Backlund wrote: > > > > for "normal install" DVDs I guess we need to add nonfree firmwares > > to the isos in separate media with an option to enable/use them in > > the install phase as some hw need it to actually work. > > (IIRC tv had something like this in progress) > > > Another vote to incorporate non-free as much as possible. Someone > coming from Mint/Ubuntu etc. is probably not going to stick w/Mageia > if the X server fails on first boot or their WiFi requires excessive > tinkering. Some students may not have access to wired Ethernet > connections and depend on WiFi, hence making net-installs for > non-free drivers a catch 22. > +1. I agree with that. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ The Case for File Swapping - http://shlom.in/file-swap How many “one-liners” do I actually write? I don’t know; maybe a couple dozen a day. But I guess I must be unusual, because as we all know, AWK was a complete failure and vanished into obscurity since it didn’t address anyone’s real needs. (That was sarcasm.) — “Twelve Views of Mark Jason Dominus” Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 20 September 2012 12:49, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2012/9/20 Donald Stewart : >> On 20 September 2012 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> >>> Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. :) >> >> The statement that the uk has superfast internet for all isn't >> accurate, at the present the uk still contains Scotland. > > That statement was irony, see the smiley :) > > -- > wobo Note the "UK still contains Scotland" also meant as rhetoric. Schultz
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 20/09/12 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2012/9/20 Anne Wilson : >> On 20/09/12 11:19, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> >>> This is the reason why over here nobody thinks of abandoning >>> the cover media. Quite to the opposite as I learned from a >>> conversation with a chief editor earlier this year. Cover media >>> are very popular because they cater to the needs of people with >>> slow net access. >> >> Yes, I suspect that this need will be very variable, >> geographically. > > Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. > :) > The situation here is slowly improving, but I accept that larger countries also have larger areas with less coverage. >> Something apparently for nothing is always attractive to many, >> but the eco lobby is becoming increasingly important. I'm not >> advocating dropping the media disks for now, just being aware >> that the situation needs to be watched for the future. > > Well, for computer magazines it's not "for nothing". The popular > magazines are coming in 2 flavors, one with cover media, the other > without. Guess which is cheaper. > Guess which ones are on the news-stands? I've never seen one without the cover media. >> Irrelevant to this discussion, but I feel increasingly guilty >> about disposing of frequent "bumper *buntu distro" disks. Since >> I subscribe the several magazines they have been coming in >> threes. That's a lot of disks in a year. > > That is the reason I stopped subscribing years ago. I only buy a > magazine if I am interested in an article or I want the cover > media. So I don't feel guilty. > > Anyhow, I don't think that this part of the discussion even has an > impact on cover media. As long as we have a live DVD or CD (with > German language) the German magazines will get what they need > (this goes for all other countries as well). > Sure. Subject closed :-) Anne - -- Need KDE help? Try http://userbase.kde.org or http://forum.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBbXkgACgkQj93fyh4cnBf+0wCdE6dXuNT+iI6dw1ywREouIKwK +IEAn3rz6JUkDOC5TrruHqKH3QXvOBml =j+XT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 20/09/12 12:42, Donald Stewart wrote: > On 20 September 2012 12:13, Wolfgang Bornath > wrote: >> >> Says a resident in the UK with superfast internet for everybody. >> :) >> > > While I don't buy magazines as *I* can download any of the iso > easily at uni, if I am away and wanted the disks then it would be > something that would greatly appeal to me. The statement that the > uk has superfast internet for all isn't accurate, at the present > the uk still contains Scotland. > There are still plenty of places in the UK that don't have superfast internet. > > Shipping a pure free flavour is appealing, however, I feel that it > doesn't warrent a disk by itself, perhaps an option to not install > non free software on the dvd. > > The number of live cds does need to be minimized, I also agree > with the proposal to have 4, 2 Gnome, 2 for KDE. The other > environments could surely be done by the *community* and therefore > be onofficial and not require the full qa. Pure question - fully acknowledging my ignorance in this - Is it not possible to ask if a "pure" install or one containing non-free software is required, on all installs? Just thinking that that would cut the number still further, DVD and 1 Gnome CD and 1 KDE CD. Anne - -- Need KDE help? Try http://userbase.kde.org or http://forum.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBbX2gACgkQj93fyh4cnBf4GwCfTncaYb1qNtRtfpjFwY+60dg7 p2gAoIj6yn5vEYOsJfYdESuCm4KPC/1U =vVqY -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Frank Griffin writes: > On 09/19/2012 04:20 AM, Pascal Terjan wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> >>> Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install >>> optional proprietary software" in the installer. >> This allows for example magazines to distribute it >> > Then put the nonfree and tainted stuff on a separate non-installable > CD/DVD containing only those packages, and have the installer provide > an option to use either that or a network-location nonfree/tainted. > The magazine can distribute the base DVD, and those who want > nonfree/tainted can simply opt to download the second ISO themselves > or have the installer connect them to a network nonfree/tainted repo. How to proceed when the network connection requires a non-free firmware? For example on laptops with no ethernet connector but just wifi? -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 09/20/2012 07:33 AM, Digigold wrote: Another vote to incorporate non-free as much as possible. Someone coming from Mint/Ubuntu etc. is probably not going to stick w/Mageia if the X server fails on first boot or their WiFi requires excessive tinkering. Some students may not have access to wired Ethernet connections and depend on WiFi, hence making net-installs for non-free drivers a catch 22. ~Digigold On 09/20/2012 05:46 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: How to proceed when the network connection requires a non-free firmware? For example on laptops with no ethernet connector but just wifi? Like I said earlier, this is especially true with students. e.g. The public schools in my area all have WiFi, every student does not have access to an Ethernet jack however. Installation media w/o the non-free drivers could easily be a deal-breaker for a lot of kids. I think it's important to expose those young impressionable minds to Mageia before they get poisoned with Ubuntu, Mint and the likes. ;P -- /"A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its old dimensions."/ *~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.*
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On 09/20/2012 05:46 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: Frank Griffin writes: On 09/19/2012 04:20 AM, Pascal Terjan wrote: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Is that necessary? Instead you could have a checkbox "install optional proprietary software" in the installer. This allows for example magazines to distribute it Then put the nonfree and tainted stuff on a separate non-installable CD/DVD containing only those packages, and have the installer provide an option to use either that or a network-location nonfree/tainted. The magazine can distribute the base DVD, and those who want nonfree/tainted can simply opt to download the second ISO themselves or have the installer connect them to a network nonfree/tainted repo. How to proceed when the network connection requires a non-free firmware? For example on laptops with no ethernet connector but just wifi? Then you get someone to download the companion ISO for you. Or, you don't rely on magazines for your install. Or, we resign ourselves to the fact that magazine installers will be second-class citizens, and put the nonfree stuff on the primary ISO. What do the magazines do about other distros that include nonfree stuff ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 09:40:27AM +0200, Anne Nicolas wrote: > want. So let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all > explanations to your proposal. I prefer a GNOME DVD of max 4GB in size, so it will still fit on a 4GB USB stick. The GNOME DVD should have all of the software for task-gnome (not just task-gnome-minimal). IMO it should also install task-gnome. Apparently some people mix and match or something, but although I've used KDE in the past, often I don't have even qt installed. I do know the mix and matching seems to get e.g. Gimp on KDE. A KDE edition and a GNOME edition just seems easier to me. All available languages should also be on this DVD. I assume 4GB is enough for this, but I don't know. A live CD, IMO 800MB CD-Rs are available and not expensive. I really wonder how many people still burn cds though. I always just use an USB stick. The benefit is quicker download speed, so 800MB is (IMO) a good size (ideally 1GB, but that is too much for a CD). -- Regards, Olav
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Anne Nicolas a écrit : Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure ... Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers My suggestions : *Non-live isos* 1 dual cd with proprietory firmware/drivers -- based on comments by Alien and others 1 dvd 32-bit with proprietory firmware/drivers -- we could ask at the beginning something like "This disc can install proprietory firmware or drivers needed by your hardware. Do you want to : 1) Install such software automatically, 2) Ask for each such software, or 3) Never install such software." That way users can accept or avoid such software as they wish. At the same time, users will never be stuck. This will be particularly useful for new users, especially those who found the dvd in a magazine. Also users preferring no non-free, including firmware or drivers, could simply resinstall accepting certain firmware/drivers after finding that their hardware doesn't work properly. -- It seems unlikely that magazines would care about the free/nonfree issue, as long as the software is redistributable without cost. And I'm only talking about firmware/drivers where a reliable free version doesn't exist. *Live isos* 1 live (installable like current dvds) dvd 64-bit with kde/gnome/lxde/xfce and all localizations, and the proprietory firmware/drivers now found on live cds. -- variation of suggestion by Sander -- this replaces both the current 64-bit dvd + 8 live cds -- it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users. (If I'm not mistaken.) -- users with 64-bit machines could still use a 32-bit live cd if they wish. -- This should save a lot of problems testing, as many potential testers don't have 64-bit machines available. 8 live cds 32-bit; kde or gnome; 4 localisation groups -- users with 32-bit machines are more likely to have bandwidth problems, or to not have dvd writers. This totals 11 isos, down from 19. (reduced by 8 live cds.) Note that I didn't include an iso without proprietory firmware/drivers, as with appropriate warnings on those with, an iso without would be redundant. Just unnecessarily increasing the testing workload. Note also that it would be useful to have a file in the iso directory listing the languages available on the various live cds. (Lacking for mga2, but did exist for mandriva.) A final point - to me it is really important to be able to upgrade an existing installation, instead of forcing a clean install. This allows the user to more easily keep their current configuration, and in some cases essential drivers/firmware not on the iso. Referring to the dvds and the dual cd, and not the live cds, which are not primarily for installation. my 2 cents :) -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
andre999 skrev 24.9.2012 09:57: Anne Nicolas a écrit : Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure ... Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers My suggestions : *Non-live isos* 1 dual cd with proprietory firmware/drivers -- based on comments by Alien and others 1 dvd 32-bit with proprietory firmware/drivers you do realize that this is a no-go as we already have problem fitting even LXDE on dual isos (as you only have ~350M / arch for rpms and installer, so trying to load a lot of extra fw and drivers on wont work. And yes, we already hardlink noarch packages -- we could ask at the beginning something like "This disc can install proprietory firmware or drivers needed by your hardware. Do you want to : 1) Install such software automatically, 2) Ask for each such software, or 3) Never install such software." That way users can accept or avoid such software as they wish. At the same time, users will never be stuck. This will be particularly useful for new users, especially those who found the dvd in a magazine. Also users preferring no non-free, including firmware or drivers, could simply resinstall accepting certain firmware/drivers after finding that their hardware doesn't work properly. As with all suggestions to mod the installer, we still need someone to do the work, not just expect that "someone" will do it... -- It seems unlikely that magazines would care about the free/nonfree issue, as long as the software is redistributable without cost. And I'm only talking about firmware/drivers where a reliable free version doesn't exist. *Live isos* 1 live (installable like current dvds) dvd 64-bit with kde/gnome/lxde/xfce and all localizations, and the proprietory firmware/drivers now found on live cds. -- variation of suggestion by Sander -- this replaces both the current 64-bit dvd + 8 live cds -- it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users. (If I'm not mistaken.) You are kidding, right ? Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have, and so on... -- users with 64-bit machines could still use a 32-bit live cd if they wish. -- This should save a lot of problems testing, as many potential testers don't have 64-bit machines available. 8 live cds 32-bit; kde or gnome; 4 localisation groups -- users with 32-bit machines are more likely to have bandwidth problems, or to not have dvd writers. This totals 11 isos, down from 19. (reduced by 8 live cds.) Note that I didn't include an iso without proprietory firmware/drivers, as with appropriate warnings on those with, an iso without would be redundant. Just unnecessarily increasing the testing workload. Note also that it would be useful to have a file in the iso directory listing the languages available on the various live cds. (Lacking for mga2, but did exist for mandriva.) Not so... every livecd is has a matching *.lang: http://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/iso/2/Mageia-2-LiveCD-GNOME-Europe1-Americas-i586-CD/Mageia-2-LiveCD-GNOME-Europe1-Americas-i586-CD.langs And this page lists the langs on the isos too: http://www.mageia.org/en/downloads/ A final point - to me it is really important to be able to upgrade an existing installation, instead of forcing a clean install. This allows DVDs and netinstalls already support upgrades... (DVDs will still always have some problem unless you add online medias, as we cant fit all of the online repos on the DVDs) The mga3 upgrade path will need more work due to UsrMove, but it should still be possible... the user to more easily keep their current configuration, and in some cases essential drivers/firmware not on the iso. Referring to the dvds and the dual cd, and not the live cds, which are not primarily for installation. I guess you mean livecds _are_ meant for installation, not upgrades -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Em 24-09-2012 09:55, Thomas Backlund escreveu: Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have, and so on... Well, we can't keep the same service to users without keeping the same number of medias. And we NEED to reduce this number. So let's only decide if DVD keeps without nonfree or not. A poll? Both choices will keep the same numbers of medias. As far as I can see, the easiest way to REDUCE media number is to switch Live medias from 700MB to at most DVD size : - It removes the different localized version, it is 40% medias less. - It does not remove ALL CD-R solutions, as we long as keep DualArch and boot.iso media. - It fits in most current USB keys (4GB is the lowest size I can see in shops). Yes, it removes supports for some old hardware solutions, which I install often, but we can't keep testing 19 medias. We have still lack of QA people!
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
zezinho skrev 24.9.2012 12:52:
Em 24-09-2012 09:55, Thomas Backlund escreveu:
Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees
to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have,
and so on...
Well, we can't keep the same service to users without keeping the same
number of medias. And we NEED to reduce this number. So let's only
decide if DVD keeps without nonfree or not. A poll? Both choices will
keep the same numbers of medias.
Sorry, my response got somewhat easy to misunderstand :)
I meant it only as a response to the:
"it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download
bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users."
As far as I can see, the easiest way to REDUCE media number is to switch
Live medias from 700MB to at most DVD size :
- It removes the different localized version, it is 40% medias less.
- It does not remove ALL CD-R solutions, as we long as keep DualArch and
boot.iso media.
- It fits in most current USB keys (4GB is the lowest size I can see in
shops).
But many people have only 1-2GB sticks they could re-use ...
Not everyone can go out and buy new hw all the time...
And the downside of getting bigger live images is that they
do get slower to boot...
Yes, it removes supports for some old hardware solutions, which I
install often, but we can't keep testing 19 medias. We have still lack
of QA people!
Yes, I know... I've been doing ISO qa :)
we do need to reduce the media sets...
which is why I earlier in this thread suggested:
- 1 i586 GNOME english liveCD ("works everywhere")
- 1 i586 KDE english liveCD ("works everywhere")
- 1 i586 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
- 1 i586 KDE all-lang liveDVD
- 1 x86_64 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
- 1 x86_64 KDE all-lang liveDVD
That would bring the live* media down from 16 -> 6
And as data point...
With current mga2 livecd package config, building a liveDVD for one
arch/DE results in a liveDVD image with ~ 1GB image size
If we squash more than one DE on the same liveDVD there will be some
questions:
- Which DM will we use ? GDM? KDM? XDM? ...?
Then we get the complaints:
- "why should I need to download KDE stuff when I want GNOME"?
- "why should I need to download GNOME stuff when I want KDE"?
- "why ..."
and the technical side:
- stuffing more than one DE on liveDVDs means altering build process,
also giving more problem for little if any gain
- every DE on liveDVDs still need to be validated, so no less testing/QA
- it means testing G/K/XDM starting GNOME/KDE/... so no less testing/QA
- ...
--
Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Thomas Backlund writes: > and the technical side: > - stuffing more than one DE on liveDVDs means altering build process, It should be fine already. IIRC, dual-desktop live systems were done at Mandriva. > also giving more problem for little if any gain > - every DE on liveDVDs still need to be validated, so no less testing/QA > - it means testing G/K/XDM starting GNOME/KDE/... so no less testing/QA It will still factorize the drivers/basesystem testing. But there will be issues at the install part: - it will last longer, because it is basically a "cp" of the uncompressed live system, the more DE and langs you put, the longer it will take - it will require much more disk space, since that kind of install process without handling packages makes hard to unselect languages or desktops -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Op maandag 24 september 2012 13:33:49 schreef Thomas Backlund:
> zezinho skrev 24.9.2012 12:52:
> > Em 24-09-2012 09:55, Thomas Backlund escreveu:
> >> Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees
> >> to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have,
> >> and so on...
> >
> > Well, we can't keep the same service to users without keeping the same
> > number of medias. And we NEED to reduce this number. So let's only
> > decide if DVD keeps without nonfree or not. A poll? Both choices will
> > keep the same numbers of medias.
>
> Sorry, my response got somewhat easy to misunderstand :)
>
> I meant it only as a response to the:
> "it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download
> bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users."
>
> > As far as I can see, the easiest way to REDUCE media number is to switch
> > Live medias from 700MB to at most DVD size :
> >
> > - It removes the different localized version, it is 40% medias less.
> > - It does not remove ALL CD-R solutions, as we long as keep DualArch and
> > boot.iso media.
> > - It fits in most current USB keys (4GB is the lowest size I can see in
> > shops).
>
> But many people have only 1-2GB sticks they could re-use ...
> Not everyone can go out and buy new hw all the time...
>
> And the downside of getting bigger live images is that they
> do get slower to boot...
>
> > Yes, it removes supports for some old hardware solutions, which I
> > install often, but we can't keep testing 19 medias. We have still lack
> > of QA people!
>
> Yes, I know... I've been doing ISO qa :)
> we do need to reduce the media sets...
> which is why I earlier in this thread suggested:
> - 1 i586 GNOME english liveCD ("works everywhere")
> - 1 i586 KDE english liveCD ("works everywhere")
>
> - 1 i586 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
> - 1 i586 KDE all-lang liveDVD
>
> - 1 x86_64 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
> - 1 x86_64 KDE all-lang liveDVD
>
> That would bring the live* media down from 16 -> 6
>
>
> And as data point...
> With current mga2 livecd package config, building a liveDVD for one
> arch/DE results in a liveDVD image with ~ 1GB image size
>
>
> If we squash more than one DE on the same liveDVD there will be some
> questions:
>
> - Which DM will we use ? GDM? KDM? XDM? ...?
>
> Then we get the complaints:
> - "why should I need to download KDE stuff when I want GNOME"?
> - "why should I need to download GNOME stuff when I want KDE"?
> - "why ..."
how about adding 32bit/64bit to one liveDVD, bringing total livemedia to 4 ?
> and the technical side:
> - stuffing more than one DE on liveDVDs means altering build process,
>also giving more problem for little if any gain
> - every DE on liveDVDs still need to be validated, so no less testing/QA
> - it means testing G/K/XDM starting GNOME/KDE/... so no less testing/QA
> - ...
>
> --
>
> Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Thomas Backlund a écrit : andre999 skrev 24.9.2012 09:57: Anne Nicolas a écrit : Hi there So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we need to take some decisions. Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments and review about Mageia on the web. - provide a full open source software version - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) - provide live version(s) - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 - provide localization as large as possible - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it easier to install and configure ... Please add all explanations to your proposal. Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a final proposal Cheers My suggestions : *Non-live isos* 1 dual cd with proprietory firmware/drivers -- based on comments by Alien and others 1 dvd 32-bit with proprietory firmware/drivers you do realize that this is a no-go as we already have problem fitting even LXDE on dual isos (as you only have ~350M / arch for rpms and installer, so trying to load a lot of extra fw and drivers on wont work. And yes, we already hardlink noarch packages For the dual cd I was just going on comments by others, but I can understand the space problem. I wasn't anticipating multiple desktops for that iso. Whatever works for those who use it, and those who create it, is fine by me. It has occured to me that maybe it would be better to have 2 cds, one each for 32-bit and 64-bit. That would make it a lot easier to find enough space, and maybe even make it simpler to create ? It would add another cd, but maybe not increase the workload. Testing should be about the same. (And carrying 2 cds in a pocket instead of one shouldn't be a problem.) As for the 32-bit dvd with proprietory firmware and drivers where reliable free aren't available, I think that that is important. -- we could ask at the beginning something like "This disc can install proprietory firmware or drivers needed by your hardware. Do you want to : 1) Install such software automatically, 2) Ask for each such software, or 3) Never install such software." That way users can accept or avoid such software as they wish. At the same time, users will never be stuck. This will be particularly useful for new users, especially those who found the dvd in a magazine. Also users preferring no non-free, including firmware or drivers, could simply resinstall accepting certain firmware/drivers after finding that their hardware doesn't work properly. As with all suggestions to mod the installer, we still need someone to do the work, not just expect that "someone" will do it... True. If all installers, and not just the live installers, carry the proprietory firmware/drivers, maybe that will alleviate some of the workload ? BTW, I'm sure that we all appreciate your important contributions on this. [...] *Live isos* 1 live (installable like current dvds) dvd 64-bit with kde/gnome/lxde/xfce and all localizations, and the proprietory firmware/drivers now found on live cds. -- variation of suggestion by Sander -- this replaces both the current 64-bit dvd + 8 live cds -- it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users. (If I'm not mistaken.) You are kidding, right ? Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have, and so on... I agree that having 64-bit hw doesn't necessarily mean one has cheap bw. Just thought that it was more likely than many with 32-bit hw. In any case, if they do have a problem, they could always use the 32-bit version. But the converse is not true. -- users with 64-bit machines could still use a 32-bit live cd if they wish. -- This should save a lot of problems testing, as many potential testers don't have 64-bit machines available. 8 live cds 32-bit; kde or gnome; 4 localisation groups -- users with 32-bit machines are more likely to have bandwidth problems, or to not have dvd writers. This totals 11 isos, down from 19. (reduced by 8 live cds.) Note that I didn't include an iso without proprietory firmware/drivers, as with appropriate warnings on those with, an iso without would be redundant. Just unnecessarily increasing the testing workload. Note also that it would be useful to have a file in the iso directory listing the languages available on the various live cds. (Lacking for mga2, but did exist for mandriva.) Not so... every livecd is has a matching *.lang: http://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/iso/2/Mageia-2-LiveCD-GNOME-Europe1-Americas-i586-CD/Mageia-2-LiveCD-GNOME-Europe1-Americas-i586-CD.langs My mirror doesn't carry the *.lang files (mageia.web
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Op dinsdag 25 september 2012 01:21:05 schreef andre999: > Thomas Backlund a écrit : > > andre999 skrev 24.9.2012 09:57: > >> Anne Nicolas a écrit : > >>> Hi there > >>> > >>> So here is the discussion about what isos we should keep or have for > >>> final release. We had several (many!) proposals on that topics and we > >>> need to take some decisions. > >>> > >>> Here are some prerequisites I can see for what I can read in comments > >>> and review about Mageia on the web. > >>> > >>> - provide a full open source software version > >>> - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having > >>> low band-width or paying depending how much they use it) > >>> - provide live version(s) > >>> - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 > >>> - provide localization as large as possible > >>> - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make > >>> it easier to install and configure > >> > >> ... > >> > >>> Please add all explanations to your proposal. > >>> > >>> Let say we take one week on this so until 26/09 then we will make a > >>> final proposal > >>> > >>> Cheers > >> > >> My suggestions : > >> *Non-live isos* > >> 1 dual cd with proprietory firmware/drivers > >> -- based on comments by Alien and others > >> > >> 1 dvd 32-bit with proprietory firmware/drivers > > > > you do realize that this is a no-go as we already have problem fitting > > even LXDE on dual isos (as you only have ~350M / arch for rpms and > > installer, so trying to load a lot of extra fw and drivers on wont work. iinm the dual-arch CD just needs a small few nonfree things, like hardware raid cards and a few network firmwares. but then the rescue also needs ip (for vlan) and brctl (for bridging)... (in all actuallity, i'm prepared here to drop all of small parts of LXDE and/or other graphic stuff). perhaps if we can unlink a few more cycles, we get enough free space... > > And yes, we already hardlink noarch packages > > For the dual cd I was just going on comments by others, but I can > understand the space problem. I wasn't anticipating multiple desktops > for that iso. Whatever works for those who use it, and those who create > it, is fine by me. > > It has occured to me that maybe it would be better to have 2 cds, one > each for 32-bit and 64-bit. That would make it a lot easier to find > enough space, and maybe even make it simpler to create ? It would add > another cd, but maybe not increase the workload. > Testing should be about the same. > (And carrying 2 cds in a pocket instead of one shouldn't be a problem.) > > As for the 32-bit dvd with proprietory firmware and drivers where > reliable free aren't available, I think that that is important. > > >> -- we could ask at the beginning something like > >> "This disc can install proprietory firmware or drivers needed by your > >> hardware. Do you want to : > >> 1) Install such software automatically, > >> 2) Ask for each such software, or > >> 3) Never install such software." > >> > >> That way users can accept or avoid such software as they wish. > >> At the same time, users will never be stuck. This will be particularly > >> useful for new users, especially those who found the dvd in a magazine. > >> Also users preferring no non-free, including firmware or drivers, could > >> simply resinstall accepting certain firmware/drivers after finding that > >> their hardware doesn't work properly. > > > > As with all suggestions to mod the installer, we still need someone to > > do the work, not just expect that "someone" will do it... > > True. > If all installers, and not just the live installers, carry the > proprietory firmware/drivers, maybe that will alleviate some of the > workload ? > BTW, I'm sure that we all appreciate your important contributions on this. > > > [...] > > >> *Live isos* > >> 1 live (installable like current dvds) dvd 64-bit with > >> kde/gnome/lxde/xfce and all localizations, and the proprietory > >> firmware/drivers now found on live cds. > >> -- variation of suggestion by Sander > >> -- this replaces both the current 64-bit dvd + 8 live cds > >> -- it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download > >> bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users. (If I'm not mistaken.) > > > > You are kidding, right ? > > Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees > > to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have, > > and so on... > > I agree that having 64-bit hw doesn't necessarily mean one has cheap bw. > Just thought that it was more likely than many with 32-bit hw. > In any case, if they do have a problem, they could always use the 32-bit > version. But the converse is not true. > > >> -- users with 64-bit machines could still use a 32-bit live cd if they > >> wish. > >> -- This should save a lot of problems testing, as many potential testers > >> don't have 64-bit machines available. > >> > >> 8 live cd
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Thomas Backlund a écrit :
zezinho skrev 24.9.2012 12:52:
Em 24-09-2012 09:55, Thomas Backlund escreveu:
Just because they have a 64bit hw, it does not mean they have accees
to cheap bw since that depends on where they live, what isp they have,
and so on...
Well, we can't keep the same service to users without keeping the same
number of medias. And we NEED to reduce this number. So let's only
decide if DVD keeps without nonfree or not. A poll? Both choices will
keep the same numbers of medias.
Sorry, my response got somewhat easy to misunderstand :)
I meant it only as a response to the:
"it seems much less likely that 64-bit users will have the download
bandwidth problems of many 32-bit users."
As far as I can see, the easiest way to REDUCE media number is to switch
Live medias from 700MB to at most DVD size :
- It removes the different localized version, it is 40% medias less.
- It does not remove ALL CD-R solutions, as we long as keep DualArch and
boot.iso media.
- It fits in most current USB keys (4GB is the lowest size I can see in
shops).
But many people have only 1-2GB sticks they could re-use ...
Not everyone can go out and buy new hw all the time...
And the downside of getting bigger live images is that they
do get slower to boot...
Yes, it removes supports for some old hardware solutions, which I
install often, but we can't keep testing 19 medias. We have still lack
of QA people!
Yes, I know... I've been doing ISO qa :)
we do need to reduce the media sets...
which is why I earlier in this thread suggested:
- 1 i586 GNOME english liveCD ("works everywhere")
- 1 i586 KDE english liveCD ("works everywhere")
We should consider the target users of live CDs.
If it is only for the purpose of reviews (by english speakers), then
downloading 2 cds for testing in english only is fine.
But if we want to introduce other users to mageia, many of whom would be
more confortable in another language, if they speak english at all, it
would be very useful to keep the other languages.
At least for the i586 cds.
(x64 users can always use the i586 cds if they don't want to use a dvd)
- 1 i586 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
- 1 i586 KDE all-lang liveDVD
- 1 x86_64 GNOME all-lang liveDVD
- 1 x86_64 KDE all-lang liveDVD
Would producing live dvd instead of a non-live dvd take much more space
? My impression is no.
If that is correct, then we could make just one live all-desktop live
DVD for each of i586 and x86_64.
Unless you think that the current non-live DVDs are missing important a
lot of important packages ?
That would bring the live* media down from 16 -> 6
Simply dropping 64-bit live cds, without any other changes, would reduce
isos from 19 -> 11.
Without much loss, as those with 64-bit hw could always use 32-bit live
cds, and then install with 64-bit media.
Although it would be better if a 64-bit live dvd were available.
And as data point...
With current mga2 livecd package config, building a liveDVD for one
arch/DE results in a liveDVD image with ~ 1GB image size
This is your area of expertise. Is it possible to reduce this ? By
maybe dynamically installing various packages needed ?
What is the size needed for live cds ? (Obviously less, since cds can't
be more than 750M.)
If we squash more than one DE on the same liveDVD there will be some
questions:
- Which DM will we use ? GDM? KDM? XDM? ...?
Then we get the complaints:
- "why should I need to download KDE stuff when I want GNOME"?
- "why should I need to download GNOME stuff when I want KDE"?
- "why ..."
So how does that differ from the current dvds ?
Isn't the idea of live isos to test and explore mageia ?
A live dvd would make it easier for users to look at various desktops
available.
Once one knows what one wants, a live iso isn't needed any more,
particularly since running a live iso is necessarily much slower than
running an installed system.
As well, even once one knows the desktop prefered, prefered packages
don't necessarily belong to that particular desktop.
and the technical side:
- stuffing more than one DE on liveDVDs means altering build process,
also giving more problem for little if any gain
- every DE on liveDVDs still need to be validated, so no less testing/QA
- it means testing G/K/XDM starting GNOME/KDE/... so no less testing/QA
- ...
The same testing, but less downloading for testers.
--
Thomas
--
André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 3 final set of isos
Hi *, as my first mail from Sep. 19 has not been moderated through (if you're not going to moderate posts, then just completely reject the mail, don't claim it is being sent to moderators for review).. See my comments re target/usage of LiveISOs below Hi *, On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Anne Nicolas wrote: > > - provide a full open source software version don't see a need for this when there is a checkbox or similar switch to enable/disable "nonfree" stuff. > - provide CD iso(s) so that it can be quick to download (people having low > band-width or paying depending how much they use it) Yes please! > - provide live version(s) Especially live-ISOs should be CD-ROM size. > - decrease isos number. QA is just a hell on the set we had for Mageia 2 I don't see the need for DVD-size special ISOs. To be precise: A simple snapshot of the repositories, to use as additional installation source should be enough for more or less everyone. Have a CD with the basic stuff, and then install the rest either via network or from an additional repo-DVD. The more time passes, the more useless the initial repo's data gets, as updates will be released for many packages. System builders/people who need to do offline installation could then just sync their favorite mirror/create a DVD with current packages and use that instead of the initially released one. The repo-packages can be tested completely automatically, as all that needs to be done is to verify the iso-creation (directory layout, no read-errors/partial files in the iso) > - provide localization as large as possible > - provide isos including major drivers including proprietary one to make it > easier to install and configure This is the only item where "completely open source/free" vs "one with proprietary stuff" would be of relevance. If there was a boot option to switch between the two, then one single iso would be enough. > Keep in mind that what you want is not necessarily what another one want. So > let start proposals here and discussion. Please add all explanations to your > proposal. So my proposal: ## * Only CD-ROM as installation media, ** one dual arch for text-based installation ** one live for each architecture and major Desktop, i.e. one GNOME, one KDE (english+whatever other western languages fit) ** isos for more languages only if you got QA for it. But editions for CJK and RTL surely would be nice. * additional packages on DVD as simple repository snapshot There have been arguments: "But you cannot fit all packages that make up GNOME or KDE onto a CD-ROM sized iso". My reply is: It doesn't need to be the complete desktop environment. Live isos are used to: * Check whether the hardware is supported at all * Check whether the distro's structure fits oneself * As installation media * As rescue system for whatever unforeseen circumstances, and to backup that windows-PC from $friend_or_family Also the questions whether people have DVD or CD-Rom drives isn't so much of a question. If it has a drive, you can assume it also can use DVD, but at least myself and ~everyone I know don't use actual CDs anymore, but rather put the ISO onto an USB-Stick. I don't own a USB-Stick in DVD-capacity, but I own a few that can fit a CD-ROM image. I'm against DVD sized installation media because * It is only of use right after release, the more time passes, the more outdated the packages are, and the more updates will have to be installed over the net anyway * it is a big download * USB-media in DVD-size not as widespread as CD-Rom sized ones * DVD for live-isos: You'll not be able to use all that is available anyway, since RAM is limited, and providing all kinds of stuff that then just leads into programs being killed because of OOM is counter-productive. So bottom line: Drop the DVD-size images, provide repository/additional packages images as a convenience for offline-installers instead. (i.e. it would only contain repository data, would not be bootable. To boot, use one of the CD-sized options) ciao Christian
